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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 43 post(s) |
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CCP Claw
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Posted - 2008.11.28 09:32:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Last Wolf
Are faction missiles allowed? Or just ammunition?
Both. Edited for clarity. Various wording updates also.
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Reptar Dragon
THE FINAL STAND
Red Box.
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Posted - 2008.11.28 10:24:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Kewne Kerpwn
Do you really expect smaller alliances to field multiple t2 rigs for all the fights? were you thinking at all?
What does being in a small alliance have to do with T2 rigs? If you don't feel you can compete, don't join. T2 rigs aren't going to completely stack a match in favour of the other team. You just GOTTA find something to complain about.
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Chronos VIII
Amarr
Malevolent Evolution
The Church.
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Posted - 2008.11.28 11:01:00 -
[63]
Just run the numbers on 9 ishtars + 1 navy vexor in eft:
With max'd skills the dps output of this setup is more than 4k dps, and thats just with drones, no guns fitted. The thing is you literally cant do anything against it. So either you ban sentry drones from the tourney, or its going to be epic fail. Something like a "stacking penalty" would be great as well. Lets say you want to use more than one ishtar, the second ishtar costs you 10% more, the 3rd 20% and so forth.
Chronx
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.11.28 11:08:00 -
[64]
Banning some modules is a bad way to go, the balance, if there ever was one is upset and hiking the cost of Logistics ship would be a better approach.
As for remote repping battleships being a pain in the ass, that may be something for the devs to look into and not so much a tournament concern.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
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CCP Mindstar
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Posted - 2008.11.28 11:36:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Chronos VIII
Just run the numbers on 9 ishtars + 1 navy vexor in eft:
With max'd skills the dps output of this setup is more than 4k dps, and thats just with drones, no guns fitted. The thing is you literally cant do anything against it. So either you ban sentry drones from the tourney, or its going to be epic fail. Something like a "stacking penalty" would be great as well. Lets say you want to use more than one ishtar, the second Ishtar costs you 10% more, the 3rd 20% and so forth.
Chronx
Banning sentry drones is not exactly going to change the DPS of a setup along these lines very much. Even with Ogre II's you are still looking at ~475dps per Ishtar. You may lose a few seconds damage as you have to wait for them to reach the target, but over distances where Gardes are effective (30km), it won't take long.
Seriously though - rather than people just saying "Ban sentry drones" - provide a solid argument as to why they are so horrible and we can look at it. I really see no problem that sentries present that regular tech II drones don't already do.
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Chronos VIII
Amarr
Malevolent Evolution
The Church.
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Posted - 2008.11.28 11:41:00 -
[66]
Originally by: CCP Mindstar
Originally by: Chronos VIII
Just run the numbers on 9 ishtars + 1 navy vexor in eft:
With max'd skills the dps output of this setup is more than 4k dps, and thats just with drones, no guns fitted. The thing is you literally cant do anything against it. So either you ban sentry drones from the tourney, or its going to be epic fail. Something like a "stacking penalty" would be great as well. Lets say you want to use more than one ishtar, the second Ishtar costs you 10% more, the 3rd 20% and so forth.
Chronx
Banning sentry drones is not exactly going to change the DPS of a setup along these lines very much. Even with Ogre II's you are still looking at ~475dps per Ishtar. You may lose a few seconds damage as you have to wait for them to reach the target, but over distances where Gardes are effective (30km), it won't take long.
Seriously though - rather than people just saying "Ban sentry drones" - provide a solid argument as to why they are so horrible and we can look at it. I really see no problem that sentries present that regular tech II drones don't already do.
The thing with sentry drones is basically that they track really well and they have an optimal of something like 50km+, whereas ogre ii's for example can be countered by smarties as their optimal is under 10km.
Chronx
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Nathaniel Hall
Caldari
Knights Of The Void
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Posted - 2008.11.28 11:56:00 -
[67]
I agree with Chronos.
The Damage would also be quite the same, like bringing 10 Domi's.
Right now I can't think of another way to get this kind of Damage.
No other Race can bring 10 Ships utilizing BS-Class weaponry to the fight.
Nerf Drone Bandwidth on Ishtars tbh!
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Randgris
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.11.28 12:04:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Randgris on 28/11/2008 12:04:52
as a logistics pilot myself i'm quite disappointed. not allowing remote repair modules will make my ship a useless target.
while the energy transfer bonus is useful, the oneiros and scimitar get this "uber" tracking link bonus which nobody ever uses.
i do see the problem of remote repping battleships but disallowing remote repair modules in general is kinda harsh. why not allow it only on logistic ships?
either that or lower the points of logistics to 8, since without repairing they're pretty much a t1 cruiser..
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Yes I know how my face looks like :D |
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CCP Mindstar
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Posted - 2008.11.28 12:11:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Chronos VIII
Originally by: CCP Mindstar
Originally by: Chronos VIII
Just run the numbers on 9 ishtars + 1 navy vexor in eft:
With max'd skills the dps output of this setup is more than 4k dps, and thats just with drones, no guns fitted. The thing is you literally cant do anything against it. So either you ban sentry drones from the tourney, or its going to be epic fail. Something like a "stacking penalty" would be great as well. Lets say you want to use more than one ishtar, the second Ishtar costs you 10% more, the 3rd 20% and so forth.
Chronx
Banning sentry drones is not exactly going to change the DPS of a setup along these lines very much. Even with Ogre II's you are still looking at ~475dps per Ishtar. You may lose a few seconds damage as you have to wait for them to reach the target, but over distances where Gardes are effective (30km), it won't take long.
Seriously though - rather than people just saying "Ban sentry drones" - provide a solid argument as to why they are so horrible and we can look at it. I really see no problem that sentries present that regular tech II drones don't already do.
The thing with sentry drones is basically that they track really well and they have an optimal of something like 50km+, whereas ogre ii's for example can be countered by smarties as their optimal is under 10km.
Chronx
Yes, they are strong, there is no doubting that, but I think statistics like this need to be put in perspective.
Optimal depends on the type of sentry drone used, and damage output scales down with range. As an example Garde II's - the optimal range at max skills is around 30km, and they track about half as well as a Neutron Blaster II on a Megathron.
Bouncer II's have an optimal of around 60km with max skills, and track slightly worse than a 425mm Railgun II on a Megathron.
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StoreSlem
Minmatar
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.11.28 12:12:00 -
[70]
Yeah logistics cruiser for 12 points without armor/shield remotes is a complete joke.
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KTOZ
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.28 12:30:00 -
[71]
Originally by: CCP Mindstar
Originally by: Chronos VIII
Originally by: CCP Mindstar
Originally by: Chronos VIII
Just run the numbers on 9 ishtars + 1 navy vexor in eft:
With max'd skills the dps output of this setup is more than 4k dps, and thats just with drones, no guns fitted. The thing is you literally cant do anything against it. So either you ban sentry drones from the tourney, or its going to be epic fail. Something like a "stacking penalty" would be great as well. Lets say you want to use more than one ishtar, the second Ishtar costs you 10% more, the 3rd 20% and so forth.
Chronx
Banning sentry drones is not exactly going to change the DPS of a setup along these lines very much. Even with Ogre II's you are still looking at ~475dps per Ishtar. You may lose a few seconds damage as you have to wait for them to reach the target, but over distances where Gardes are effective (30km), it won't take long.
Seriously though - rather than people just saying "Ban sentry drones" - provide a solid argument as to why they are so horrible and we can look at it. I really see no problem that sentries present that regular tech II drones don't already do.
The thing with sentry drones is basically that they track really well and they have an optimal of something like 50km+, whereas ogre ii's for example can be countered by smarties as their optimal is under 10km.
Chronx
Yes, they are strong, there is no doubting that, but I think statistics like this need to be put in perspective.
Optimal depends on the type of sentry drone used, and damage output scales down with range. As an example Garde II's - the optimal range at max skills is around 30km, and they track about half as well as a Neutron Blaster II on a Megathron.
Bouncer II's have an optimal of around 60km with max skills, and track slightly worse than a 425mm Railgun II on a Megathron.
I think his strongest point is there s not much way to counter it.
You cant use ecm ( autotarget), you cant use the range at your favor, you cant use smart bombs as you can against regular dmg drones or repair drones ( thats why rep drones are awailible i guess, you can counter them..), ishtars warps in at range, deploys sentry's, sit at their spot and try's to keep you off for couple of minutes with combat utility modules, use damps etc.
You have to go there to smartbomb their drones down while 45 sent firing on you + the support modules they will fit on the ishtars.. it s abit overpovered yes. Why ? becoz you cannot decide really to be 0km or atleast close range to them. You just warp 0 to the beacon and if they come to max range from the opposite beacon to yours, you will have hard time..
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Chronos VIII
Amarr
Malevolent Evolution
The Church.
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Posted - 2008.11.28 12:38:00 -
[72]
Originally by: CCP Mindstar
Originally by: Chronos VIII
Originally by: CCP Mindstar
Originally by: Chronos VIII
Just run the numbers on 9 ishtars + 1 navy vexor in eft:
With max'd skills the dps output of this setup is more than 4k dps, and thats just with drones, no guns fitted. The thing is you literally cant do anything against it. So either you ban sentry drones from the tourney, or its going to be epic fail. Something like a "stacking penalty" would be great as well. Lets say you want to use more than one ishtar, the second Ishtar costs you 10% more, the 3rd 20% and so forth.
Chronx
Banning sentry drones is not exactly going to change the DPS of a setup along these lines very much. Even with Ogre II's you are still looking at ~475dps per Ishtar. You may lose a few seconds damage as you have to wait for them to reach the target, but over distances where Gardes are effective (30km), it won't take long.
Seriously though - rather than people just saying "Ban sentry drones" - provide a solid argument as to why they are so horrible and we can look at it. I really see no problem that sentries present that regular tech II drones don't already do.
The thing with sentry drones is basically that they track really well and they have an optimal of something like 50km+, whereas ogre ii's for example can be countered by smarties as their optimal is under 10km.
Chronx
Yes, they are strong, there is no doubting that, but I think statistics like this need to be put in perspective.
Optimal depends on the type of sentry drone used, and damage output scales down with range. As an example Garde II's - the optimal range at max skills is around 30km, and they track about half as well as a Neutron Blaster II on a Megathron.
Bouncer II's have an optimal of around 60km with max skills, and track slightly worse than a 425mm Railgun II on a Megathron.
You might be right about the tracking, altho from my experience sentry drones track really well, you are not getting my point. My point is that you cant do anything against 50 Garde II's pounding on you, while you probably being tracking disrupted or damped to hell and back by the ishtars. I mean seriously, what can you do against sentry drones, its very unlikely that you fly 30km to shoot/smartbomb them, isnt it?
Chronx
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CCP Mindstar
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Posted - 2008.11.28 12:40:00 -
[73]
Originally by: KTOZ
I think his strongest point is there s not much way to counter it.
You cant use ecm ( autotarget), you cant use the range at your favor, you cant use smart bombs as you can against regular dmg drones or repair drones ( thats why rep drones are awailible i guess, you can counter them..), ishtars warps in at range, deploys sentry's, sit at their spot and try's to keep you off for couple of minutes with combat utility modules, use damps etc.
You have to go there to smartbomb their drones down while 45 sent firing on you + the support modules they will fit on the ishtars.. it s abit overpovered yes. Why ? becoz you cannot decide really to be 0km or atleast close range to them. You just warp 0 to the beacon and if they come to max range from the opposite beacon to yours, you will have hard time..
It is a nasty setup yes, no question about that. The key to countering it, in my personal opinion lies in the fact that ishtars are fundamentally quite a weak ship. Teams did similar things last year, when you could bring 5 Ishtars maximum, but that setup did not win the day either.
45 sentry drones will hurt, and hurt hard, but remember that at the start of the fight they could well be facing 5 gank battleships. With no remote-repping, the Ishtars would drop like flies.
Feel free to prove me wrong on it, but I honestly don't consider it a huge problem at this point.
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Chronos VIII
Amarr
Malevolent Evolution
The Church.
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Posted - 2008.11.28 12:50:00 -
[74]
Originally by: CCP Mindstar
Originally by: KTOZ
I think his strongest point is there s not much way to counter it.
You cant use ecm ( autotarget), you cant use the range at your favor, you cant use smart bombs as you can against regular dmg drones or repair drones ( thats why rep drones are awailible i guess, you can counter them..), ishtars warps in at range, deploys sentry's, sit at their spot and try's to keep you off for couple of minutes with combat utility modules, use damps etc.
You have to go there to smartbomb their drones down while 45 sent firing on you + the support modules they will fit on the ishtars.. it s abit overpovered yes. Why ? becoz you cannot decide really to be 0km or atleast close range to them. You just warp 0 to the beacon and if they come to max range from the opposite beacon to yours, you will have hard time..
It is a nasty setup yes, no question about that. The key to countering it, in my personal opinion lies in the fact that ishtars are fundamentally quite a weak ship. Teams did similar things last year, when you could bring 5 Ishtars maximum, but that setup did not win the day either.
45 sentry drones will hurt, and hurt hard, but remember that at the start of the fight they could well be facing 5 gank battleships. With no remote-repping, the Ishtars would drop like flies.
Feel free to prove me wrong on it, but I honestly don't consider it a huge problem at this point.
"The key to countering it, in my personal opinion lies in the fact that ishtars are fundamentally quite a weak ship."
- This comment made my day 
The idea of brining 5 gank bs to **** the ishtars apart doesn't make any sense at all, because you imply that the ishtars are going in close-range as well, which wont happen ofc. So we are looking at a gank bs going at least 70km++ to reach the ishtar while having 50 Garde II's on him. And even if the gank bs reaches the ishtar alive - which I seriously doubt - the ishtar has at least 3 utility slots for ew.
Chronx
ps.: I like you mindstar, your the only one talking to me 
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KTOZ
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.28 12:59:00 -
[75]
Edited by: KTOZ on 28/11/2008 13:00:53
Well yea you are right, i m sure ppl will find other ways to counter It as well. I dont want anything to be banned or disallowed anyway.. 
Ninja edit : i was talkin about mindstar when i said you are right, chronos have a point to but creative ppl would find a way to make it :p
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Shaddn Arakh
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Posted - 2008.11.28 12:59:00 -
[76]
Somehow with terribly overpowered drones Gallentes have not conquered the galaxy yet, so I guess it will be ok this time, too.
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CCP Mindstar
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Posted - 2008.11.28 13:03:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Chronos VIII
"The key to countering it, in my personal opinion lies in the fact that ishtars are fundamentally quite a weak ship."
- This comment made my day
The idea of brining 5 gank bs to **** the ishtars apart doesn't make any sense at all, because you imply that the ishtars are going in close-range as well, which wont happen ofc. So we are looking at a gank bs going at least 70km++ to reach the ishtar while having 50 Garde II's on him. And even if the gank bs reaches the ishtar alive - which I seriously doubt - the ishtar has at least 3 utility slots for ew.
Chronx
ps.: I like you mindstar, your the only one talking to me
In the context of a tournament like this, yes I would say they are weak - low hitpoints compared to other ship options.
I'm still not convinced. To get Gardes out to a 70km effective range you will need to fill your spare mids with Omnidirectional tracking comps to boost their range, limiting Ewar abilities. Ishtars attempting to dictate a ranged fight expose themselves in two ways. Warping to 50km exposes you to potentially a 100km engagement, where you are vulnerable to sniping. Mega beams, 1400mm's etc.
Similarly if you are in a gank BS you won't be warping in at range, you will be warping to 0. This makes the maximum initial engagement range 50km. Perfect range for something like mega pulse.
I still think the Ishtars would drop like flies.
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CCP Claw
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Posted - 2008.11.28 13:04:00 -
[78]
Every tournament so far we all see:
"This will be an ECM fest"
"This will be all about drones"
And so on.
There are always, in any ruleset, setups that stand out from others as being 'broken' or 'best'. I have confidence that ingenuity and intelligence are more important than carbon copied setups...I can think of a ton of setups off the top of my head right now that would demolish sentryshtars.
Adapt or die, as a great man once said :)
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StoreSlem
Minmatar
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.11.28 13:15:00 -
[79]
Edited by: StoreSlem on 28/11/2008 13:23:21
Originally by: CCP Mindstar
With five empty midslots, the Ishtars would drop like flies.
fixed
edit:
Sentry ishtars also can't be caught at a range disadvantage because they can fit both gardes, wardens, and some novelty ogres or warriors. If, as you mentioned, the ishtars end up starting 100km away from 5 sniper bs you would still look at a 2:1 dps advantage, with wardens having a much easier time hitting bs than bs hitting ishtars. If we could have warpins that would guarantee you to be 200km+ away from the opposition team, yes then ishtars have a counter.
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CCP Mindstar
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Posted - 2008.11.28 13:22:00 -
[80]
Originally by: StoreSlem
Originally by: CCP Mindstar
With five empty midslots, the Ishtars would drop like flies.
fixed
With 5 empty midslots the gardes optimal range is back to 30km and the Ishtars start within range of just about any setup. 
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CCP Atropos
C C P
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Posted - 2008.11.28 13:32:00 -
[81]
Garde only do one damage type, if you really want to hedge your bets and fit against an all Ishtar/Garde team, surely 5 Apoc with Mega Beams or Tachyons would pop that? Opt range bonus, combined with a tank for thermal?
Or combined volley damage from 5 Maelstroms? Given the cycle time would that not break it?
Sure we can theory-craft this all we want, but CCP Claw is right; ingenuity and intelligence will always out perform cookie cutter EFT setups
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FlameGlow
Legio Octae
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.28 14:06:00 -
[82]
Originally by: CCP Mindstar
Originally by: Chronos VIII
Just run the numbers on 9 ishtars + 1 navy vexor in eft:
With max'd skills the dps output of this setup is more than 4k dps, and thats just with drones, no guns fitted. The thing is you literally cant do anything against it. So either you ban sentry drones from the tourney, or its going to be epic fail. Something like a "stacking penalty" would be great as well. Lets say you want to use more than one ishtar, the second Ishtar costs you 10% more, the 3rd 20% and so forth.
Chronx
Banning sentry drones is not exactly going to change the DPS of a setup along these lines very much. Even with Ogre II's you are still looking at ~475dps per Ishtar. You may lose a few seconds damage as you have to wait for them to reach the target, but over distances where Gardes are effective (30km), it won't take long.
Seriously though - rather than people just saying "Ban sentry drones" - provide a solid argument as to why they are so horrible and we can look at it. I really see no problem that sentries present that regular tech II drones don't already do.
Ogres can be smartbombed by BS and take time to reach target. Sentries attack immediately, you can't reach them with AOE weapons(no bombs will help - cloaking ban, how a bomber is supposed to work with no cloak?), and taking them one by one will be too long.
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I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button. |
FugginNutz
Caldari
Chinchilla Industries
Manifest Destiny.
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Posted - 2008.11.28 14:38:00 -
[83]
I, for one, support T2 sentries. Some Gallente folk I know have over 6mil sp in just combat drones alone, so why not allow them the opportunity to use the skills they spent months training for?
Ya'll ***** when the PVP tourney wasn't going to be held but when CCP decides to have it, ya'll ***** about the rules. 
The rules set by CCP are simple. Adapt or Die. 
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Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Retrofitted Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.11.28 14:49:00 -
[84]
banning sentries would be dumb, oh and heavy interdictors are still way overpriced at 14, but doesn't really matter since nobody'd use one them matter what the price was heh
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Max Teranous
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.11.28 16:06:00 -
[85]
Man, if only you could like, shoot sentries and pop them. Oh wait....
Max 
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Necronus
Amarr
Monks of War
United Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.28 16:14:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Necronus on 28/11/2008 16:16:32
Originally by: CCP Mindstar
Originally by: StoreSlem
Originally by: CCP Mindstar
With five empty midslots, the Ishtars would drop like flies.
fixed
With 5 empty midslots the gardes optimal range is back to 30km and the Ishtars start within range of just about any setup.
Does your quite active response to whiners mean that Tourney rules are not final? :)
p.s: i personally think that the last tourney rules were almost perfect except they needed a bit tweaking with Logistic and EW ships and could use several fresh ideas.
This tourney changes look way too dramatic. 
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Mes Ren
No Trademark
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Posted - 2008.11.28 16:31:00 -
[87]
I personally hope that someone is stupid enough to field 9 ishtars against us. I definately hope they are dumb enough to use gardes. There are a number of different ways to defeat the 9 Ishtar build, the key is a good understanding of the game mechanics. Even the brute force route will work quite well. ie. 5x Pulse Geddons, triple trimark with 5x bouncer II's. Warp in a 0km, the max distance the IShtars can be is 50km away. The Ishtars will melt very quickly, even if they are using TD's. Just my 2 cents.
________________________
No Trademark -- Mes Ren, Mes Builder --
-- CEO --
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Sally Bestonge
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.28 16:57:00 -
[88]
yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss a pvp battle tournament but with all these restrictions it doesn't even resemble what this game is this is ****ing dumb as ****.
You guys you should no rules other then player limit and no capitals limiting choices doesn't make for fun pvp experiences.
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KTOZ
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.28 17:02:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Mes Ren
I personally hope that someone is stupid enough to field 9 ishtars against us. I definately hope they are dumb enough to use gardes. There are a number of different ways to defeat the 9 Ishtar build, the key is a good understanding of the game mechanics. Even the brute force route will work quite well. ie. 5x Pulse Geddons, triple trimark with 5x bouncer II's. Warp in a 0km, the max distance the IShtars can be is 50km away. The Ishtars will melt very quickly, even if they are using TD's. Just my 2 cents.
Ok then how you will know that the opponents will bring 9 ishtars while you bring those 5 geddons?
coz i ( as many other ppl) know tons of other setups which will eat the 5 geddons alive as well.. So we shouldnt talk about countering specific setups with other specific setups.. You cant take the risk an say "hay this time i feel like they ll bring 9 ishtar, and we are gonna melt them with our 5 geddons!! " Thats the good side of the allience tournement, you wont know what you will face tomoro 
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
StoreSlem
Minmatar
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.11.28 17:10:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Mes Ren
I personally hope that someone is stupid enough to field 9 ishtars against us. I definately hope they are dumb enough to use gardes. There are a number of different ways to defeat the 9 Ishtar build, the key is a good understanding of the game mechanics. Even the brute force route will work quite well. ie. 5x Pulse Geddons, triple trimark with 5x bouncer II's. Warp in a 0km, the max distance the IShtars can be is 50km away. The Ishtars will melt very quickly, even if they are using TD's. Just my 2 cents.
18 td's or rsd's / 5 armageddons -> tachyons hit well at 50km? arma can lock at 50km?
I'm thinking that sentry drones alone aren't a big problem, it's more when they are coupled with 375m3 drone bay ship with damage bonus + plenty ew + nimble sig res tanking. Everyone who are stuck on the Gardes also forget that Ishtars have enough drone bay to efficiently deal good damage anywhere from 0-125km. Simply, 11 points for an Ishtar is a super bargain, while noone are going to pay 11 points for an eagle or cyclone.
In the end it's not really unfair seeing how everyone who want just can field those 9 ishtars and be at an advantage against most everyone who don't, but how can it be more exciting watching 9 ishtars hours on end than 7 sb's / 2 logistics?
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