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Dyaven
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2008.11.26 19:37:00 -
[1]
Let's face it, AFs got better with the last patch but they still suck.
Ishkur, +1 low
Enyo, +1 mid
Vengeance, +1 hi?
Retribution, + 1 mid
Harpy, +1 low
Hawk, +1 low
Jaguar, +1 low
Wolf, +1 mid
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* Your signature file is broken. Please use an image that will display - Fallout
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.11.26 19:38:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Mister Xerox on 26/11/2008 19:38:34
... and flip the weapon bonuses between Wolf & Jaguar.
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Novantco
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2008.11.26 19:42:00 -
[3]
The Retribution should get another mid imo.
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Ascarta
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Posted - 2008.11.26 19:48:00 -
[4]
I agree with the retribution getting 1 more midslot, i mean what the hell were they thinking when they designed that ship...
And no, i dont fly it.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.26 19:52:00 -
[5]
As much as it pains me, giving the Retri another mid would make it so overpowered it would probably become the AF of choice. Simply adding slots to a ship (and even more a whole bunch of them.... jeez) is the non-smart way of doing things.
So, no.
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RedSplat
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.11.26 19:53:00 -
[6]
Yeap, the Wolf would definitely benefit from another mid, an extra low on the Jag wouldn't go amiss but doesn't seem quite so important to me as the former issue...
I don't want to set the world on fire |
Xori Ruscuv
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Posted - 2008.11.26 19:56:00 -
[7]
IMO, Ishkur doesn't need a low, it needs a drone damage bonus. (Leave the bandwidth the way it is, but put in a 3 or 4% drone dmg bonus or something)
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Dyaven
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2008.11.26 19:59:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Dyaven on 26/11/2008 20:00:05
 Originally by: RedSplat
Yeap, the Wolf would definitely benefit from another mid, an extra low on the Jag wouldn't go amiss but doesn't seem quite so important to me as the former issue...
Well, it's pretty obvious that the real issue ships are the Retribution, Enyo, and Wolf, probably in that order of importance of needing fixing, but giving just those three extra mid slots might make them a lot better than the other AFs, so giving all of them an extra slot would be the best compensation imo. (And maybe a bit more PG & CPU as well to use those slots)
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
IMO, Ishkur doesn't need a low, it needs a drone damage bonus. (Leave the bandwidth the way it is, but put in a 3 or 4% drone dmg bonus or something)
I agree completely, it's the only drone boat that doesn't get a drone bonus.
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* Your signature file is broken. Please use an image that will display - Fallout
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Deadeye Devie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:00:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Mister Xerox
Edited by: Mister Xerox on 26/11/2008 19:38:34
... and flip the weapon bonuses between Wolf & Jaguar.
As stated before, swapping over weapons bonuses do not help the wolf at all....you end up with the slower of the 2 ships, and less tanky one, with a gimped range and so needing it to get right up close where iot can be peopped easily....whilst the tankier of the 2, also the fastest, would then still have low DPS but would be more suited to arti use, as well as being all round more usefull than the wolf.
swapping the bonus would nerf the wolf more due to the situational positioning in battle that the bonus would give you.
Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of themself without that law is both. |
Jurgen Cartis
Caldari
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:05:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dyaven
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
IMO, Ishkur doesn't need a low, it needs a drone damage bonus. (Leave the bandwidth the way it is, but put in a 3 or 4% drone dmg bonus or something)
I agree completely, it's the only drone boat that doesn't get a drone bonus.
Eos. 
-------------------- Originally by: Crumplecorn
I prefer launching bathtubs of antimatter at my opponents over pointing an open DVD player at them, even if the bathtubs do miss a lot. So no.
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el caido
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:14:00 -
[11]
The Ishkur's capabilities are insane for its class (but I do agree about the poor Eos).
Back on track, I disagree with the premise that AFs "suck". Their cost to combat effectiveness has actually been bumped in-line for the most part with the QR revisions to speed/agility. While I still think these ships could use a specific PVP bonus (I think they are perfect for those who use them for restriction plexes/general PVE), I couldn't tell you what that should be. :)
Adding extra slots is far too drastic of a solution, imo.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:15:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Deadeye Devie
Originally by: Mister Xerox
Edited by: Mister Xerox on 26/11/2008 19:38:34
... and flip the weapon bonuses between Wolf & Jaguar.
As stated before, swapping over weapons bonuses do not help the wolf at all....you end up with the slower of the 2 ships, and less tanky one, with a gimped range and so needing it to get right up close where iot can be peopped easily....whilst the tankier of the 2, also the fastest, would then still have low DPS but would be more suited to arti use, as well as being all round more usefull than the wolf.
swapping the bonus would nerf the wolf more due to the situational positioning in battle that the bonus would give you.
Valid aruments, yes.
I've just been irked that the wolf gets an AC bonus (falloff) but no ability to either tackle or tank, and it's slow. The wolf should be a sniping frig (a'la Harpy).
The jaguar gets the arty bonus (optimal) but it's set up to tackle and/or tank, and it's speedy. It should have a bonus to reflect that role.
But then, I've been saying this since their release... and nothing has changed.
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Cade Morrigan
Caldari
The Terrible Secret
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:22:00 -
[13]
Poor HAWK needs more than just another slot :(
-= Don't you DARE call her ugly! =-
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Aleus Stygian
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:27:00 -
[14]
Inferior suggestions. The point on the Retribution becoming overpowered with another mid though, is valid.
AFs in general need a through-and-through overhaul, and the problems are certainly not restricted to the ships themselves but also touch a whole lot on their weapons. Projectiles are still a bit too crappy, and rockets and lights being as utterly ****ty as they have become with the missile patch means that the Hawk and the Vengeance are severely underpowered. Not that they weren't lacking in CPU from the start, even with maxed skills.
If you want some good opinions, I suggest you search down and revive the pre-QR AF fix thread. Don't recall who was responsible for it, but...
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Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:30:00 -
[15]
I don't think that AFs need a blanket +1 slot across the board. The only class of ship that I think really requires that kind of change are the T1 destroyers and maybe Interdictors. They're a higher tier ship than the tier 3 frigates and they all have one less mid/low than their corresponding tier 3 frigate.
Mind you, I think that a few of them could use a slight reshuffling of slots and/or bonuses, but nothing as drastic as giving them all +1 slot.
Originally by: Mister Xerox
I've just been irked that the wolf gets an AC bonus (falloff) but no ability to either tackle or tank, and it's slow. The wolf should be a sniping frig (a'la Harpy).
The jaguar gets the arty bonus (optimal) but it's set up to tackle and/or tank, and it's speedy. It should have a bonus to reflect that role.
But then, I've been saying this since their release... and nothing has changed.
Not to mention the fact that the Wolf actually has enough fitting to use Arties whereas the Jag doesn't.
As for the last bit, I have been saying this and several other things about AFs for a while. Some of them have come to pass recently (lighter/faster, swap Harpy/Hawk skin) so maybe this too can be changed.
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
RedSplat
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:44:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mister Xerox
I've just been irked that the wolf gets an AC bonus (falloff) but no ability to either tackle or tank, and it's slow. The wolf should be a sniping frig (a'la Harpy).
The jaguar gets the arty bonus (optimal) but it's set up to tackle and/or tank, and it's speedy. It should have a bonus to reflect that role.
But then, I've been saying this since their release... and nothing has changed.
If you treat the Wolf as an arty boat and fit it purely for damage and tracking it is a masterful frigate popper with lovely Alpha. Sadly the nature of the resist bonus you get aren't conductive to a tank without actually using your lowslots for such- unlike the jag where the resists complement the natural weakpoint of a shield tank while its increased speed more than covers the sig radius defict caused by a Med Extender and leaves your lows free for damage and/or speed mods.
The Wolf cant do a proper rep fit without using its lows and the spare high for a NOS- and still is a real borderline case for needing to fit a cap booster to sustain it.
I've posted before about the sub-prime tradeoff between Jag and Wolf, at the moment i find it hard to justify not flying a Jag; esp in gang where i can fit a half decent passive tank and run with MWD or AB (or both  ) and be a resilient tackler that actually puts out acceptable if not great dps.
I would love to see AF's get a 4th bonus and the Wolf/Jag to have thier roles re-asessed.
I don't want to set the world on fire |
RedSplat
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.11.26 20:46:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Aleus Stygian
If you want some good opinions, I suggest you search down and revive the pre-QR AF fix thread. Don't recall who was responsible for it, but...
That was an excellent thread, sadly i don't believe it registered on the dev radar.
I don't want to set the world on fire |
Eluhaf
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Posted - 2008.11.26 21:12:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Cade Morrigan
Poor HAWK needs more than just another slot :(
I find that the hawk is better than many of the exisitng AFs (enyo, retribution, vengenance) when fitted with an active tank. Heck I lost an arbi to a hawk, that had in the same set up pawned both a 3 man and a 4 man AF gang (all after QR).
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.11.26 21:35:00 -
[19]
Giving the retribution another midslot without it costing a lowslot or highslot would open another huge can of worms.
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Burn Mac
Minmatar
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2008.11.26 21:57:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dyaven
Let's face it, AFs got better with the last patch but they still suck.
Ishkur, +1 low
Enyo, +1 mid
Vengeance, +1 hi?
Retribution, + 1 mid
Harpy, +1 low
Hawk, +1 low
Jaguar, +1 low
Wolf, +1 mid
Ishkur is quite good the only ships that could get a certain slot layout change is the retri and it whould trade one high slot for a med slot,maybe the same on the wolf.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.26 22:33:00 -
[21]
Isnt even the Retribution quite powerful?
Yes it got no utility but it has a good tank and as a raw DPSboat in a roaming frigate gang where other people tackle for them they are kinda.. excellent last time I hear anything.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
DEATH'S LEGION
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Posted - 2008.11.26 23:54:00 -
[22]
Imo they dont suck that much anymore, granted all frigs get the benefits of reduced webbers and the new scramblers, but AFs really play it out best.
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Wannabehero
Caldari
Absolutely No Retreat
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Posted - 2008.11.27 00:05:00 -
[23]
Extra slots <--- Not the right answer.
A 4th bonus <--- Right answer
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Don't harsh my mellow |
sAyArrrr
Minmatar
Omyst Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.27 00:45:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Wannabehero
Extra slots <--- Not the right answer.
A 4th bonus <--- Right answer
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Ort Lofthus
Wildlands Heavy Technologies
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.11.27 01:12:00 -
[25]
Originally by: sAyArrrr
Originally by: Wannabehero
Extra slots <--- Not the right answer.
A 4th bonus <--- Right answer
Also, retri loses part of what makes it the retribution if it gains a mid. The ship right now is awesome, it just can't tackle. Frigates, being small ships, are supposed to have slot issues. If you wolfpack with these things, its a non-issue.
My feeling is that CCP is planning on giving AFs a 4th bonus, but want to see how they work out post-QR. They have stated in the past that they don't like changing ship bonuses, so we will probably see bonuses added March or once the reprecussions of the nano nerf are sorted.
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SecretAngel Princess
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Posted - 2008.11.27 02:34:00 -
[26]
The Retribution doesn't need another mid.
More CPU perhaps so that you have the option of something other than a cap destroying dual rep tank but not another Mid.
As it stands it is a beautiful damage dealer for frigate gangs and a potent discouragement to interceptors. In those roles I wouldn't fit tackle in another midslot, I'd put on a Tracking Disruptor.
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EspionageX
Arbitrary Freedom
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Posted - 2008.11.27 03:22:00 -
[27]
Personally I like the Retribution the way it is... sorta. I would like to see it get an extra gun and probably a little bit more grid/CPU to accommodate for it(Nothing big mind you  )
Overall though, I want to see AFs get their 4th bonus, otherwise CCP needs to make a subclass or something cause it sure as hell isn't a T2 ship without that 4th bonus 
More like a faction ship with uber resists and is easily built and cheaper.
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abrasive soap
HOMELESS.
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Posted - 2008.11.27 03:28:00 -
[28]
Right now the retribution is the worst af because it cannot point anything. These delusions of the retribution being a dps frigate make no sense as it is out damaged by other assault frigates with 2 to 4 midslots.
A frigate that cannot tackle is crap. Remove the retribution's utility high which is nearly useless and add another mid slot. Removing a low slot would make no sense as you need cap mods in the lows to keep the retribution running. CPU may need to be increased so that the retribution can actually fit the scrambler once it receives its other midslot.
Adding a slot to every assault frigate makes no sense as none of them need it other than the retribution (maybe the enyo as well, but the retribution is in a far worse position).
You shouldn't be forced to fly in a frigate blob to use the retribution.
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Mankirks Wife
Caldari
Space Furry Association
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Posted - 2008.11.27 03:33:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Wannabehero
Extra slots <--- Not the right answer.
A 4th bonus <--- Right answer
Yeah. I lub my Ishkur since QR but I'd still sacrifice my (character's) left testicle to the great Icelandic gods for a drone damage/hp bonus on it. Doesn't even need to be 10% like the other drone boats, I'd be happy with 5%/level.
I think the Wolf/Enyo/other short-range AFs really need a web resistance bonus, especially now that you have an even chance of having your MWD shut off once you get close and you still need said MWD otherwise anyone and everyone can kite you, at least long enough to shoot you into hull before you're even in range.
---
Originally by: tarin adur
Also, cuz Sporks are like minmatar,do lots of things ok...but nothing spectacularly.
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Dasalt Istgut
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Posted - 2008.11.27 03:41:00 -
[30]
Honestly the Ishkur, Harpy and Jaguar are fine. The wolf and enyo are in dire need of a mid. The retribution is in dire need of at least one mid, probably two. The hawk just has a lot of problems and probably needs a ground up rethinking.
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