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Dyaven The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.11.26 19:37:00 - [1] Let's face it, AFs got better with the last patch but they still suck. Ishkur, +1 low Enyo, +1 mid Vengeance, +1 hi? Retribution, + 1 mid Harpy, +1 low Hawk, +1 low Jaguar, +1 low Wolf, +1 mid ===== * Your signature file is broken. Please use an image that will display - Fallout
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2008.11.26 19:38:00 - [2] Edited by: Mister Xerox on 26/11/2008 19:38:34 ... and flip the weapon bonuses between Wolf & Jaguar.
Novantco The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.11.26 19:42:00 - [3] The Retribution should get another mid imo.
Ascarta	Posted - 2008.11.26 19:48:00 - [4] I agree with the retribution getting 1 more midslot, i mean what the hell were they thinking when they designed that ship... And no, i dont fly it.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2008.11.26 19:52:00 - [5] As much as it pains me, giving the Retri another mid would make it so overpowered it would probably become the AF of choice. Simply adding slots to a ship (and even more a whole bunch of them.... jeez) is the non-smart way of doing things. So, no.
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.11.26 19:53:00 - [6] Yeap, the Wolf would definitely benefit from another mid, an extra low on the Jag wouldn't go amiss but doesn't seem quite so important to me as the former issue... I don't want to set the world on fire
Xori Ruscuv	Posted - 2008.11.26 19:56:00 - [7] IMO, Ishkur doesn't need a low, it needs a drone damage bonus. (Leave the bandwidth the way it is, but put in a 3 or 4% drone dmg bonus or something)
Dyaven The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.11.26 19:59:00 - [8] Edited by: Dyaven on 26/11/2008 20:00:05 Originally by: RedSplat Yeap, the Wolf would definitely benefit from another mid, an extra low on the Jag wouldn't go amiss but doesn't seem quite so important to me as the former issue... Well, it's pretty obvious that the real issue ships are the Retribution, Enyo, and Wolf, probably in that order of importance of needing fixing, but giving just those three extra mid slots might make them a lot better than the other AFs, so giving all of them an extra slot would be the best compensation imo. (And maybe a bit more PG & CPU as well to use those slots) Originally by: Xori Ruscuv IMO, Ishkur doesn't need a low, it needs a drone damage bonus. (Leave the bandwidth the way it is, but put in a 3 or 4% drone dmg bonus or something) I agree completely, it's the only drone boat that doesn't get a drone bonus. ===== * Your signature file is broken. Please use an image that will display - Fallout
Deadeye Devie Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.26 20:00:00 - [9] Originally by: Mister Xerox Edited by: Mister Xerox on 26/11/2008 19:38:34 ... and flip the weapon bonuses between Wolf & Jaguar. As stated before, swapping over weapons bonuses do not help the wolf at all....you end up with the slower of the 2 ships, and less tanky one, with a gimped range and so needing it to get right up close where iot can be peopped easily....whilst the tankier of the 2, also the fastest, would then still have low DPS but would be more suited to arti use, as well as being all round more usefull than the wolf. swapping the bonus would nerf the wolf more due to the situational positioning in battle that the bonus would give you. Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of themself without that law is both.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2008.11.26 20:05:00 - [10] Originally by: Dyaven Originally by: Xori Ruscuv IMO, Ishkur doesn't need a low, it needs a drone damage bonus. (Leave the bandwidth the way it is, but put in a 3 or 4% drone dmg bonus or something) I agree completely, it's the only drone boat that doesn't get a drone bonus. Eos. -------------------- Originally by: Crumplecorn I prefer launching bathtubs of antimatter at my opponents over pointing an open DVD player at them, even if the bathtubs do miss a lot. So no.

el caido	Posted - 2008.11.26 20:14:00 - [11] The Ishkur's capabilities are insane for its class (but I do agree about the poor Eos). Back on track, I disagree with the premise that AFs "suck". Their cost to combat effectiveness has actually been bumped in-line for the most part with the QR revisions to speed/agility. While I still think these ships could use a specific PVP bonus (I think they are perfect for those who use them for restriction plexes/general PVE), I couldn't tell you what that should be. :) Adding extra slots is far too drastic of a solution, imo.
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2008.11.26 20:15:00 - [12] Originally by: Deadeye Devie Originally by: Mister Xerox Edited by: Mister Xerox on 26/11/2008 19:38:34 ... and flip the weapon bonuses between Wolf & Jaguar. As stated before, swapping over weapons bonuses do not help the wolf at all....you end up with the slower of the 2 ships, and less tanky one, with a gimped range and so needing it to get right up close where iot can be peopped easily....whilst the tankier of the 2, also the fastest, would then still have low DPS but would be more suited to arti use, as well as being all round more usefull than the wolf. swapping the bonus would nerf the wolf more due to the situational positioning in battle that the bonus would give you. Valid aruments, yes. I've just been irked that the wolf gets an AC bonus (falloff) but no ability to either tackle or tank, and it's slow. The wolf should be a sniping frig (a'la Harpy). The jaguar gets the arty bonus (optimal) but it's set up to tackle and/or tank, and it's speedy. It should have a bonus to reflect that role. But then, I've been saying this since their release... and nothing has changed.
Cade Morrigan Caldari The Terrible Secret	Posted - 2008.11.26 20:22:00 - [13] Poor HAWK needs more than just another slot :( -= Don't you DARE call her ugly! =-
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.11.26 20:27:00 - [14] Inferior suggestions. The point on the Retribution becoming overpowered with another mid though, is valid. AFs in general need a through-and-through overhaul, and the problems are certainly not restricted to the ships themselves but also touch a whole lot on their weapons. Projectiles are still a bit too crappy, and rockets and lights being as utterly ****ty as they have become with the missile patch means that the Hawk and the Vengeance are severely underpowered. Not that they weren't lacking in CPU from the start, even with maxed skills. If you want some good opinions, I suggest you search down and revive the pre-QR AF fix thread. Don't recall who was responsible for it, but...
Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2008.11.26 20:30:00 - [15] I don't think that AFs need a blanket +1 slot across the board. The only class of ship that I think really requires that kind of change are the T1 destroyers and maybe Interdictors. They're a higher tier ship than the tier 3 frigates and they all have one less mid/low than their corresponding tier 3 frigate. Mind you, I think that a few of them could use a slight reshuffling of slots and/or bonuses, but nothing as drastic as giving them all +1 slot. Originally by: Mister Xerox I've just been irked that the wolf gets an AC bonus (falloff) but no ability to either tackle or tank, and it's slow. The wolf should be a sniping frig (a'la Harpy). The jaguar gets the arty bonus (optimal) but it's set up to tackle and/or tank, and it's speedy. It should have a bonus to reflect that role. But then, I've been saying this since their release... and nothing has changed. Not to mention the fact that the Wolf actually has enough fitting to use Arties whereas the Jag doesn't. As for the last bit, I have been saying this and several other things about AFs for a while. Some of them have come to pass recently (lighter/faster, swap Harpy/Hawk skin) so maybe this too can be changed. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.11.26 20:44:00 - [16] Originally by: Mister Xerox I've just been irked that the wolf gets an AC bonus (falloff) but no ability to either tackle or tank, and it's slow. The wolf should be a sniping frig (a'la Harpy). The jaguar gets the arty bonus (optimal) but it's set up to tackle and/or tank, and it's speedy. It should have a bonus to reflect that role. But then, I've been saying this since their release... and nothing has changed. If you treat the Wolf as an arty boat and fit it purely for damage and tracking it is a masterful frigate popper with lovely Alpha. Sadly the nature of the resist bonus you get aren't conductive to a tank without actually using your lowslots for such- unlike the jag where the resists complement the natural weakpoint of a shield tank while its increased speed more than covers the sig radius defict caused by a Med Extender and leaves your lows free for damage and/or speed mods. The Wolf cant do a proper rep fit without using its lows and the spare high for a NOS- and still is a real borderline case for needing to fit a cap booster to sustain it. I've posted before about the sub-prime tradeoff between Jag and Wolf, at the moment i find it hard to justify not flying a Jag; esp in gang where i can fit a half decent passive tank and run with MWD or AB (or both ) and be a resilient tackler that actually puts out acceptable if not great dps. I would love to see AF's get a 4th bonus and the Wolf/Jag to have thier roles re-asessed. I don't want to set the world on fire
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.11.26 20:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Aleus Stygian If you want some good opinions, I suggest you search down and revive the pre-QR AF fix thread. Don't recall who was responsible for it, but... That was an excellent thread, sadly i don't believe it registered on the dev radar. I don't want to set the world on fire
Eluhaf	Posted - 2008.11.26 21:12:00 - [18] Originally by: Cade Morrigan Poor HAWK needs more than just another slot :( I find that the hawk is better than many of the exisitng AFs (enyo, retribution, vengenance) when fitted with an active tank. Heck I lost an arbi to a hawk, that had in the same set up pawned both a 3 man and a 4 man AF gang (all after QR).
Grarr Dexx Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.11.26 21:35:00 - [19] Giving the retribution another midslot without it costing a lowslot or highslot would open another huge can of worms. -----
Burn Mac Minmatar The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.11.26 21:57:00 - [20] Originally by: Dyaven Let's face it, AFs got better with the last patch but they still suck. Ishkur, +1 low Enyo, +1 mid Vengeance, +1 hi? Retribution, + 1 mid Harpy, +1 low Hawk, +1 low Jaguar, +1 low Wolf, +1 mid Ishkur is quite good the only ships that could get a certain slot layout change is the retri and it whould trade one high slot for a med slot,maybe the same on the wolf.

Hyveres Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.26 22:33:00 - [21] Isnt even the Retribution quite powerful? Yes it got no utility but it has a good tank and as a raw DPSboat in a roaming frigate gang where other people tackle for them they are kinda.. excellent last time I hear anything.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION	Posted - 2008.11.26 23:54:00 - [22] Imo they dont suck that much anymore, granted all frigs get the benefits of reduced webbers and the new scramblers, but AFs really play it out best.
Wannabehero Caldari Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.11.27 00:05:00 - [23] Extra slots <--- Not the right answer. A 4th bonus <--- Right answer -- Don't harsh my mellow
sAyArrrr Minmatar Omyst Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.27 00:45:00 - [24] Originally by: Wannabehero Extra slots <--- Not the right answer. A 4th bonus <--- Right answer
Ort Lofthus Wildlands Heavy Technologies FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.11.27 01:12:00 - [25] Originally by: sAyArrrr Originally by: Wannabehero Extra slots <--- Not the right answer. A 4th bonus <--- Right answer Also, retri loses part of what makes it the retribution if it gains a mid. The ship right now is awesome, it just can't tackle. Frigates, being small ships, are supposed to have slot issues. If you wolfpack with these things, its a non-issue. My feeling is that CCP is planning on giving AFs a 4th bonus, but want to see how they work out post-QR. They have stated in the past that they don't like changing ship bonuses, so we will probably see bonuses added March or once the reprecussions of the nano nerf are sorted.
SecretAngel Princess	Posted - 2008.11.27 02:34:00 - [26] The Retribution doesn't need another mid. More CPU perhaps so that you have the option of something other than a cap destroying dual rep tank but not another Mid. As it stands it is a beautiful damage dealer for frigate gangs and a potent discouragement to interceptors. In those roles I wouldn't fit tackle in another midslot, I'd put on a Tracking Disruptor.
EspionageX Arbitrary Freedom	Posted - 2008.11.27 03:22:00 - [27] Personally I like the Retribution the way it is... sorta. I would like to see it get an extra gun and probably a little bit more grid/CPU to accommodate for it(Nothing big mind you ) Overall though, I want to see AFs get their 4th bonus, otherwise CCP needs to make a subclass or something cause it sure as hell isn't a T2 ship without that 4th bonus More like a faction ship with uber resists and is easily built and cheaper.
abrasive soap HOMELESS.	Posted - 2008.11.27 03:28:00 - [28] Right now the retribution is the worst af because it cannot point anything. These delusions of the retribution being a dps frigate make no sense as it is out damaged by other assault frigates with 2 to 4 midslots. A frigate that cannot tackle is crap. Remove the retribution's utility high which is nearly useless and add another mid slot. Removing a low slot would make no sense as you need cap mods in the lows to keep the retribution running. CPU may need to be increased so that the retribution can actually fit the scrambler once it receives its other midslot. Adding a slot to every assault frigate makes no sense as none of them need it other than the retribution (maybe the enyo as well, but the retribution is in a far worse position). You shouldn't be forced to fly in a frigate blob to use the retribution.
Mankirks Wife Caldari Space Furry Association	Posted - 2008.11.27 03:33:00 - [29] Originally by: Wannabehero Extra slots <--- Not the right answer. A 4th bonus <--- Right answer Yeah. I lub my Ishkur since QR but I'd still sacrifice my (character's) left testicle to the great Icelandic gods for a drone damage/hp bonus on it. Doesn't even need to be 10% like the other drone boats, I'd be happy with 5%/level. I think the Wolf/Enyo/other short-range AFs really need a web resistance bonus, especially now that you have an even chance of having your MWD shut off once you get close and you still need said MWD otherwise anyone and everyone can kite you, at least long enough to shoot you into hull before you're even in range. --- Originally by: tarin adur Also, cuz Sporks are like minmatar,do lots of things ok...but nothing spectacularly.
Dasalt Istgut	Posted - 2008.11.27 03:41:00 - [30] Honestly the Ishkur, Harpy and Jaguar are fine. The wolf and enyo are in dire need of a mid. The retribution is in dire need of at least one mid, probably two. The hawk just has a lot of problems and probably needs a ground up rethinking.

Khraunus Amarr Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.11.27 04:12:00 - [31] Agreed, except ishkur and harpy both need a serious nerf. In the hands of a competent pilot these will kill just about any other ship. Thank god there aren't many competent harpy/ishkur pilots out there though... Most importantly, how are you supposed to tell whether this is part of my post or my signature?
xhardxcorex	Posted - 2008.11.27 05:32:00 - [32] I make no comment about the Min and Gal AFs as I have little/no experience with them. +1 lows on the Harpy and Hawk is out of line with the Caldari's general line of design. The Harpy is fine as is. Explain to me why the Harpy needs an extra low slot. The Hawk only needs an extra low because it's CPU/PG ratio is set for a turret/missile boat hybrid... and it only has bonuses for missiles. The extra low could only be used for a overdrive injector (or a second depending on your fit) or a fitting bonus. Even with decent skills the fitting is tight. Adding an extra low is silly. You can only put a fitting bonus or a speed upgrade of some kind on it. And does that really fix the Hawk's problems? I don't think it does. +1 mid on the Retibution is a bad idea. This stems from the thinking that all frigates should tackle all the time. Closeminded thinking stifles potential. The retribution isn't for tackling. Somehow I don't think CCP intended assualt frigates mainly for tackling but just 'overlooked' one and only put one midslot on it. That's bordering on insulting. Stop looking for a solopwnmobile. Stop looking for an easy answer to every situation. All ships and all (good) fittings are situational. No one and no ship should do well at everything.
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.11.27 06:37:00 - [33] id prefer that missing 4th bonus EVE history t2 precisions
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.11.27 06:42:00 - [34] Originally by: Dasalt Istgut Honestly the Ishkur, Harpy and Jaguar are fine. The wolf and enyo are in dire need of a mid. The retribution is in dire need of at least one mid, probably two. The hawk just has a lot of problems and probably needs a ground up rethinking. The new scrambler lets you turn off a ships MWD and put a point on it. The wolf is excellent for tackling larger ships not likely to be sporting an AB. I have had great success w/ it.
Dr Sheepbringer Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.27 07:23:00 - [35] I also think one shouldn't add any slots. Yes, they would benefit from it, but they shouldn't be all rounders. It would be rather boring if every ship could do everything. They should get a new bonus though. There should only a be a few ships that can do everything, but majority should have specific roles. So that one HAS TO choose a ship, not just have a common "use a drake" syndrome. Stop whining.
abrasive soap HOMELESS.	Posted - 2008.11.27 07:45:00 - [36] Edited by: abrasive soap on 27/11/2008 07:46:45 Originally by: xhardxcorex I make no comment about the Min and Gal AFs as I have little/no experience with them. +1 lows on the Harpy and Hawk is out of line with the Caldari's general line of design. The Harpy is fine as is. Explain to me why the Harpy needs an extra low slot. The Hawk only needs an extra low because it's CPU/PG ratio is set for a turret/missile boat hybrid... and it only has bonuses for missiles. The extra low could only be used for a overdrive injector (or a second depending on your fit) or a fitting bonus. Even with decent skills the fitting is tight. Adding an extra low is silly. You can only put a fitting bonus or a speed upgrade of some kind on it. And does that really fix the Hawk's problems? I don't think it does. +1 mid on the Retibution is a bad idea. This stems from the thinking that all frigates should tackle all the time. Closeminded thinking stifles potential. The retribution isn't for tackling. Somehow I don't think CCP intended assualt frigates mainly for tackling but just 'overlooked' one and only put one midslot on it. That's bordering on insulting. Stop looking for a solopwnmobile. Stop looking for an easy answer to every situation. All ships and all (good) fittings are situational. No one and no ship should do well at everything. I'm not asking for 5 heavies like the pre-patch myrmidon I am asking for 1 midslot so I can use a scrambler with a retribution. If anything, the ishkur is overpowered.The retribution is not a mobile dps platform because as of now the ishkur, a tackling assault frigate, out damages the retribution. I cannot see how 190 dps with 60 dps tank and a scrambler is a "solopwnmobile" or "overpowered". The reason why assault frigates are now useful is that interceptors are too slow without a tank now. This role is tackling. Currently, this is what happens in a retribution: a) You try to have some fun and solo pvp. You find a ship and engage it. You then: i)Lose transversal and lose your ship very quickly. ii)Watch in horror as another af or interceptor kites you or out tracks you in its optimal. iii)The ship warps out because you either don't have an afterburner or a scrambler. b)You are forced to blob. You fly with a frig heavy gang. You: i)Do less dps than the vast majority of frigs that have tackle. ii)You go to scout a system and you fail miserably at tackling anything because you have no tackle. Having 2 mid slots is far from overpowered.
Elhina Novae Sky's Edge	Posted - 2008.11.27 08:08:00 - [37] Remove the 5th highslot from the retribution and give it another mid o.o ------------ Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem? Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.
royal killer Amarr Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2008.11.27 08:16:00 - [38] Originally by: Tzar'rim As much as it pains me, giving the Retri another mid would make it so overpowered it would probably become the AF of choice. Simply adding slots to a ship (and even more a whole bunch of them.... jeez) is the non-smart way of doing things. So, no. It is the way of solving the Retribution problem(1 mid only), wich I've hate since I first flew one, adding another slot would not make it overpowered, it'll just make it more versatile. Now adding +2 more would...(which would be awesome tho) -------------------- ding ding! Wrangler: Hello and w ding ding! Wrangler: ...damn nanowhiners.
Princess Scarlite Amarr	Posted - 2008.11.27 08:21:00 - [39] Originally by: Mister Xerox Edited by: Mister Xerox on 26/11/2008 19:38:34 ... and flip the weapon bonuses between Wolf & Jaguar. this :) __________________________ This Character is for sale :) Current bid is 1,4b.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.27 08:22:00 - [40] Edited by: Sokratesz on 27/11/2008 08:22:08 Originally by: Dasalt Istgut Honestly the Ishkur, Harpy and Jaguar are fine. The wolf and enyo are in dire need of a mid. The retribution is in dire need of at least one mid, probably two. The hawk just has a lot of problems and probably needs a ground up rethinking. Retribution + 2 mids = BS killer. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart

abrasive soap HOMELESS.	Posted - 2008.11.27 08:27:00 - [41] Edited by: abrasive soap on 27/11/2008 08:27:36 Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 27/11/2008 08:22:08 Originally by: Dasalt Istgut Honestly the Ishkur, Harpy and Jaguar are fine. The wolf and enyo are in dire need of a mid. The retribution is in dire need of at least one mid, probably two. The hawk just has a lot of problems and probably needs a ground up rethinking. Retribution + 2 mids = BS killer. Retribution + 2 mids = usable? (not counting the mid it has already)
Elhina Novae Sky's Edge	Posted - 2008.11.27 08:27:00 - [42] Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 27/11/2008 08:22:08 Originally by: Dasalt Istgut Honestly the Ishkur, Harpy and Jaguar are fine. The wolf and enyo are in dire need of a mid. The retribution is in dire need of at least one mid, probably two. The hawk just has a lot of problems and probably needs a ground up rethinking. Retribution + 2 mids = BS killer. Lies. Boost the smexy Retribution ------------ Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem? Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.
abrasive soap HOMELESS.	Posted - 2008.11.27 08:28:00 - [43] Originally by: Elhina Novae Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 27/11/2008 08:22:08 Originally by: Dasalt Istgut Honestly the Ishkur, Harpy and Jaguar are fine. The wolf and enyo are in dire need of a mid. The retribution is in dire need of at least one mid, probably two. The hawk just has a lot of problems and probably needs a ground up rethinking. Retribution + 2 mids = BS killer. Lies. Boost the smexy Retribution YES
Funfactor	Posted - 2008.11.27 08:31:00 - [44] Onestly i think AF's are litle monsters now and they do not need further upgrades. The only exception would be retribution as it has 1 mid slot. Ishkur - best at class in my opinion. There is no need to add any bonuses because it is very powerful as it is now. Additional dmg bonus would make it overpowered. Enyo - pumps out decent dmg without drones. Hawk - fit it the right way and it will serve you well. Harpy - good sniper. Vengance - superb tanking. I cant judge about jaguar's or wolf's bonuses as i dont fly them but i can see peaple use both of them a lot now. When i was fighting against them with my own assult frigs it looked like they do just fine.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.27 08:43:00 - [45] Originally by: abrasive soap Retribution + 2 mids = usable? (not counting the mid it has already) It is already a good AF just not in the way you'd like it to..and he suggested two more mids for a total of three which would be totally out of whack. Wyvern & Chimera fitting flowchart
abrasive soap HOMELESS.	Posted - 2008.11.27 08:53:00 - [46] Edited by: abrasive soap on 27/11/2008 09:01:20 Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: abrasive soap Retribution + 2 mids = usable? (not counting the mid it has already) It is already a good AF just not in the way you'd like it to..and he suggested two more mids for a total of three which would be totally out of whack. 1 more mid would make it usable. 2 more would make it overpowered.
royal killer Amarr Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2008.11.27 08:58:00 - [47] He's right, a Retribution with 3 medium slots would be absolutely overpowered. -------------------- ding ding! Wrangler: Hello and w ding ding! Wrangler: ...damn nanowhiners.
Velvet Spice Spice World	Posted - 2008.11.27 09:22:00 - [48] Originally by: Eluhaf I find that the hawk is better than many of the exisitng AFs (enyo, retribution, vengenance) when fitted with an active tank. Heck I lost an arbi to a hawk, that had in the same set up pawned both a 3 man and a 4 man AF gang (all after QR). if you really lost an Arbitrator to an AF that has less DPS than a Kestrel, you fail on a massive scale oh, the ship also barely has the fitting to use a full T2 setup with the intended active tank, let alone enough to use the utility high slot - in short, no, the Hawk isn't up there with the acceptable AFs at all and whoever said the Ishkur and Harpy are overpowered needs to get his head checked I eat carebears for breakfast
Poena Loveless Minmatar Dawn of a new Empire	Posted - 2008.11.27 10:25:00 - [49] As far as I see it, AFs's roles are defensive in nature (protecting BSes from tacklers). They all have their own ways of doing that, either by range alpha style (jag/sniper harpy) or close range maulers. Any argument sayng AFs are tacklers is flawed. Inties are tacklers, AFs are anti tacklers.
Nexus Kinnon Genos Occidere Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.11.27 10:32:00 - [50] Originally by: Mister Xerox Edited by: Mister Xerox on 26/11/2008 19:38:34 ... and flip the weapon bonuses between Wolf & Jaguar. for the love of christ

Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2008.11.27 10:54:00 - [51] the retribution is fine and has a rly nice dps output. I bet it can pop inties T1 Frigs and even some AS before they can get into warp.
baltec1 R.U.S.T. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.27 11:37:00 - [52] Originally by: Cpt Cosmic the retribution is fine and has a rly nice dps output. I bet it can pop inties T1 Frigs and even some AS before they can get into warp. They can also beat up some HACs
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.11.27 11:45:00 - [53] Edited by: RedSplat on 27/11/2008 11:46:15 Originally by: Poena Loveless As far as I see it, AFs's roles are defensive in nature (protecting BSes from tacklers). They all have their own ways of doing that, either by range alpha style (jag/sniper harpy) or close range maulers. Any argument sayng AFs are tacklers is flawed. Inties are tacklers, AFs are anti tacklers. The Jag is not a useful artillery boat as it currently is. The Wolf as a 'close range mauler' suffers from the fact that it uses AC's and could do with another low (lest it is just an expensive glass cannon, a Ruppy is still a better use of isk than a Wolf as current); that said i can get OK dps out of it with my crappy skills if i use Hail. As anti tacklers they do well, but lets be honest so do a half dozen t1 frigs. I don't want to set the world on fire
Velvet Spice Spice World	Posted - 2008.11.27 11:52:00 - [54] Want a ship that can instapop other frigates? Up to 8 guns, range or tracking bonuses, for less than 1m per hull. Look no further. Just because some AFs "work" doesn't mean there's no room for improvement. You lots have to define a role first before you can go "they're fine" or "let's add slots", and no, just being "advanced" frigates isn't a role. I eat carebears for breakfast
ouroboros trading Gallente Medics On Fire	Posted - 2008.11.27 11:55:00 - [55] giving the retribution another mid would turn it into a pile of steaming bastard pwnage. it's should keep one mid and only ever have one mid. 156713? That's Numberwang!
baltec1 R.U.S.T. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.27 11:58:00 - [56] Originally by: ouroboros trading giving the retribution another mid would turn it into a pile of steaming bastard pwnage. it's should keep one mid and only ever have one mid.
Dihania Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.11.27 13:02:00 - [57] Originally by: Tzar'rim So, no. there. [hrhr] Sniggwaffe is recruiting. Visit channel "join sniggwaffe" in game.
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.11.27 13:11:00 - [58] Ｒｅｔｒｉｂｕｔｉｏｎ　ｄｏｅｓ　ａ　ｌｏｔ　ｏｆ　ｄｐｓ．　．　．ａｄｄｉｎｇ　ａｎｏｔｈｅｒ　ｍｉｄ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｍａｋｅ　ｉｔ　ｖｅｒｙ　ｖｅｒｙ　ｐｏｗｅｒｆｕｌ． ---- ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense.
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.11.27 13:24:00 - [59] Originally by: Dyaven Let's face it, AFs got better with the last patch but they still suck. QFT If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
dojocan81	Posted - 2008.11.27 13:27:00 - [60] yeah, give all marauder one med slot too!! they have fewer slots than their t1 pendants!!! uhmmm.... yeah, give AF's one slot more !!

Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.11.27 13:29:00 - [61] Originally by: Ghoest Originally by: Dyaven Let's face it, AFs got better with the last patch but they still suck. QFT Yeah a well fitted t1 cruiser will still steamroll any AF. Especially the ones with bigger dronebays and utility highs for neuts. Afs dont need more slots, they just need another bonus. Retri needs one less high one more mid. Thats it. And no it wont be overpowered. Not more then the jaguars and ishkurs flying around everywhere atm. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise
Chaosmancer	Posted - 2008.11.27 13:37:00 - [62] The retri doesnt need another midslot, the retri pilots just needs a friend. That's how Ive solved the problem
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.11.27 13:39:00 - [63] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/11/2008 13:40:08 Originally by: Chaosmancer The retri doesnt need another midslot, the retri pilots just needs a friend. That's how Ive solved the problem And what kind of moron would think that a t2 frig (the t1 variant is frigging better for pvp because of its 2 mids) should need a tackling friend to pvp is a good idea? That's what I would like to know. It's like taking away all drones from a drone boat like vexor and domi and saying, get a friend to assign you drones so you can pvp. GTFO. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise
Chaosmancer	Posted - 2008.11.27 13:50:00 - [64] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/11/2008 13:40:08 Originally by: Chaosmancer The retri doesnt need another midslot, the retri pilots just needs a friend. That's how Ive solved the problem And what kind of moron would think that a t2 frig (the t1 variant is frigging better for pvp because of its 2 mids) should need a tackling friend to pvp is a good idea? That's what I would like to know. It's like taking away all drones from a drone boat like vexor and domi and saying, get a friend to assign you drones so you can pvp. GTFO. It would have been if the retribution was an interceptor pherhaps.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.11.27 14:07:00 - [65] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/11/2008 14:07:29 Originally by: Chaosmancer It would have been if the retribution was an interceptor pherhaps. There is no DPS role in frig class. It's like making a tackling battleship with low dps and light tank. A frig with one mid is stupid. No ifs nor buts. End of story. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2008.11.27 14:24:00 - [66] Give them a level based bonus to eWar resistance of sorts and make them the scourge of Recon ships everywhere :) Retribution is limited with the one midslot, but would be insanely overpowered with two .. tough one .. but then again, when in doubt - boost amarr Shameless plug of idea that keeps growing on me: Let all ship have one high (utility slots) to use as an omni-slot, capable of taking any module, limited by hull restrictions to weapon mounts. That way you never know if the enemy is sporting extra tank, damage, ewar or nos/neut.
Funfactor	Posted - 2008.11.27 14:33:00 - [67] Somebody stated that cruisers are still much better than assult frigs. Well i should say yes and no at the same time. I think well before i choose to engage cruisers as many of them have small guns, small drones or light missiles. For example Rupture is on top of the "no go" list as most of them have neutralaisers fitted. However i see no problem to attack BC or BS. Trust me, dps fitted harbinge will be in big trouble if get into close range. Can you be that brass with your cruiser?
xhardxcorex	Posted - 2008.11.27 15:48:00 - [68] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/11/2008 14:07:29 There is no DPS role in frig class. It's like making a tackling battleship with low dps and light tank. A frig with one mid is stupid. No ifs nor buts. End of story. (cough)Stealthbombers(cough)
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.27 16:17:00 - [69] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 27/11/2008 16:17:42 Originally by: xhardxcorex (cough)Stealthbombers(cough) Wow, so, your brilliant counter-argument is the second most useless class in the game (black ops are useless AND expensive)? Trying to give the DPS role to a frigate is one of the many reasons bombers are trash. Quote: Not everything needs a tackle. This is the same argument as the 'every ship needs a MWD or it's useless' argument. It's simply not true and it's close minded thinking. No, but all frigates do, as tackle ability is the reason you bring a frigate. The Retribution is a joke as a dps ship, a Harbinger/Zealot/etc will do that job much better, and its anti-frigate ability is no better than ships (Harpy, Ishkur, Jaguar) that *can* fit tackle. Oh, and MWDs are mandatory. Fit one or become a comedy killmail. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
Cmndr Griff Opinicus Operations Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.11.27 16:59:00 - [70] If in a gang you can get away with an AB on a Retribution, and do nicely. Also as someone else said, Assault Frigates aren't designed to tackle and maybe just maybe some people like the ships to cost less than say a Zealot for PvP and add DPS to a gang? It isn't a huge amount granted but by flying a Frigate-class ship you shouldn't be expecting Cruiser-class damage. Still, I get about 190dps up close, and 150ish at over 15km which isn't to be laughed at. The one mid isn't the worst thing in the world, I actually think it adds a lot of character to the ship and I like the spare high-slot so I can overload guns for a long time. As for moving a low to mid, I like my tank as it is also. I'd be giving up something that really benefits the ship. Where do ideas like these come from? Monkeys in hats?

RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.11.27 17:06:00 - [71] Posting in a Merin Thread I don't want to set the world on fire
I SoStoned	Posted - 2008.11.27 17:14:00 - [72] Hmmm, yeah, to the guy that said he gets almost 200 DPS from his AF... that's why they're more than a little limited on the 'assault' side of things. Taranis can get nearly 300, and Claws over 200, because of their stacked weapon bonuses. And they're tacklers! A fleet of interceptors might not tank as well, but they'll sure push out more DPS, which is a sad truth that shows the limitations of the entire AF tree.
Nexus Kinnon Genos Occidere Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.11.27 17:15:00 - [73] To be fair this Merin chap does seem to rage a bit about ship setups... although I tend to agree with him most of the time.
xhardxcorex	Posted - 2008.11.27 17:26:00 - [74] Originally by: Merin Ryskin troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll I fixed it for you.
Cmndr Griff Opinicus Operations Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.11.27 17:41:00 - [75] Originally by: I SoStoned Hmmm, yeah, to the guy that said he gets almost 200 DPS from his AF... that's why they're more than a little limited on the 'assault' side of things. Taranis can get nearly 300, and Claws over 200, because of their stacked weapon bonuses. And they're tacklers! A fleet of interceptors might not tank as well, but they'll sure push out more DPS, which is a sad truth that shows the limitations of the entire AF tree. It can tank though, that's a huge help. Where do ideas like these come from? Monkeys in hats?
Aesheera Amarr Malum Crusis IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.11.27 17:50:00 - [76] Edited by: Aesheera on 27/11/2008 17:53:54 AFs are fine as they are. Retribution must be used in conjuction with other people. Ishkur already does enough wonders. Want more slots? Fly a cruiser type. T2 or not, they still are 'just' frigates. My idea? Give us a third AF. --
abrasive soap HOMELESS.	Posted - 2008.11.27 20:06:00 - [77] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/11/2008 14:07:29 Originally by: Chaosmancer It would have been if the retribution was an interceptor pherhaps. There is no DPS role in frig class. It's like making a tackling battleship with low dps and light tank. A frig with one mid is stupid. No ifs nor buts. End of story. Why are people saying that the retribution is a dps ship? The ishkur out damages the retribution and it has 3 mids. The blarpy out damages the retribution and it has 4 mids. The enyo outdamages the retribution and it has 2 mids. The wolf out damages the retribution and it has 2 mids (not to mention while doing better damage types). Screw requiring a tackler I want to solo in a retribution instead of having to use a non-laser ship or bringing tacklers (lol at this notion). Blindly saying that the retribution with 2 mids would be overpowered makes no sense. Quote: Also as someone else said, Assault Frigates aren't designed to tackle and maybe just maybe some people like the ships to cost less than say a Zealot for PvP and add DPS to a gang? Maybe you should get an arbitrator, omen or harbinger then. Also those have midslots unlike the retribution. People aren't even stating why the retribution would be overpowered.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.11.27 20:10:00 - [78] Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 27/11/2008 20:11:46 Originally by: xhardxcorex idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy I fixed it for you. I don't like Merin particularly either, but if that's the best you've got, you should shut up. Originally by: Merin Ryskin Wow, so, your brilliant counter-argument is the second most useless class in the game (black ops are useless AND expensive)? Trying to give the DPS role to a frigate is one of the many reasons bombers are trash. Wrong. Stealth Bombers were rather stupidly designed even to begin with, yes, with silly PG/CPU ratios even with maxed relevant skills, bad slot layouts, ***-poor defenses and utility value, and a lot of other difficulties. But they were still good enough to take out frigates, EASs, AFs and Interceptors with, and the odd ill-prepared cruiser. It was the new missile calculations that left them utterly useless. AFs are for sustained fire, and should thus be able to at least hold their targets somewhat in place, even if they are made so that they can only afford to put on a disruptor and no web. SBs were for alpha, so they didn't need to, and that and the moment of surprise was their offense and* defense. Which has now been taken away.
Cmndr Griff Opinicus Operations Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.11.27 22:11:00 - [79] Originally by: abrasive soap Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/11/2008 14:07:29 Originally by: Chaosmancer It would have been if the retribution was an interceptor pherhaps. There is no DPS role in frig class. It's like making a tackling battleship with low dps and light tank. A frig with one mid is stupid. No ifs nor buts. End of story. Why are people saying that the retribution is a dps ship? The ishkur out damages the retribution and it has 3 mids. The blarpy out damages the retribution and it has 4 mids. The enyo outdamages the retribution and it has 2 mids. The wolf out damages the retribution and it has 2 mids (not to mention while doing better damage types). Screw requiring a tackler I want to solo in a retribution instead of having to use a non-laser ship or bringing tacklers (lol at this notion). Blindly saying that the retribution with 2 mids would be overpowered makes no sense. Quote: Also as someone else said, Assault Frigates aren't designed to tackle and maybe just maybe some people like the ships to cost less than say a Zealot for PvP and add DPS to a gang? Maybe you should get an arbitrator, omen or harbinger then. Also those have midslots unlike the retribution. People aren't even stating why the retribution would be overpowered. Your Ishkur has to get very close for its full dps, where as I can run away and pound you with Scorch while tanking your drones. It has range, something the really hard hitting AFs and Inties don't, meaning while you guys are will inevitably get webbed/scrammed to a snails pace in your effort to deliver 200-300dps, the retribution continues on 'safely' delivering around 150. If something does manage to get close, load up the Amarr Navy, switch on the repairer, overload and prey. I definitely wouldn't say no to a 4th bonus or more damage though that's for sure. Where do ideas like these come from? Monkeys in hats?
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.11.27 22:34:00 - [80] I use AFs to move in Empire. . .Like pimped Shuttles. I am taking to the Jag lately - its beefy, quick, and it looks like the coolest little ship. The Firetail is also a pleasure to zip around in. . .but pvp in it? No point. ---- ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense.

abrasive soap HOMELESS.	Posted - 2008.11.27 22:38:00 - [81] Edited by: abrasive soap on 27/11/2008 22:39:17 Originally by: Cmndr Griff Originally by: abrasive soap Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/11/2008 14:07:29 Originally by: Chaosmancer It would have been if the retribution was an interceptor pherhaps. There is no DPS role in frig class. It's like making a tackling battleship with low dps and light tank. A frig with one mid is stupid. No ifs nor buts. End of story. Why are people saying that the retribution is a dps ship? The ishkur out damages the retribution and it has 3 mids. The blarpy out damages the retribution and it has 4 mids. The enyo outdamages the retribution and it has 2 mids. The wolf out damages the retribution and it has 2 mids (not to mention while doing better damage types). Screw requiring a tackler I want to solo in a retribution instead of having to use a non-laser ship or bringing tacklers (lol at this notion). Blindly saying that the retribution with 2 mids would be overpowered makes no sense. Quote: Also as someone else said, Assault Frigates aren't designed to tackle and maybe just maybe some people like the ships to cost less than say a Zealot for PvP and add DPS to a gang? Maybe you should get an arbitrator, omen or harbinger then. Also those have midslots unlike the retribution. People aren't even stating why the retribution would be overpowered. Your Ishkur has to get very close for its full dps, where as I can run away and pound you with Scorch while tanking your drones. It has range, something the really hard hitting AFs and Inties don't, meaning while you guys are will inevitably get webbed/scrammed to a snails pace in your effort to deliver 200-300dps, the retribution continues on 'safely' delivering around 150. If something does manage to get close, load up the Amarr Navy, switch on the repairer, overload and prey. I definitely wouldn't say no to a 4th bonus or more damage though that's for sure. The retribution can't kite because it can't dictate range. The ishkur is faster than the retribution and will likely have a web fit. Not to mention that the ishkur could kite the retribution at 20km while doing 100 dps. Be serious, the range bonus means nothing when your opponent is only honor scrammed.
wide SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.11.28 00:19:00 - [82] Signed. My enyo lacks a drinks holder.
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.11.28 02:30:00 - [83] Only a few AFs need more slots. Whatever made CCP think the reti would be ok with 1 mid, or the enyo with 2 mids, really didn't know jack sh** about the game. However, what AFs as a whole need is their 4th bonus. Why on EARTH anyone in the balancing department thought that they risked making AFs overpowered if they gave them their 4th bonus was drinking a little too much s·kkula=i. Actually that reminds me, Zulu promised me that if AFs were still not up to snuff that they would take action swiftly. Well, I think everyone that flies AFs can agree they are much better, but still will not be viable and will be put back in the closet once the novelty wears off. So..Zulu, time to make your peeps make good on your word. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2008.11.28 02:50:00 - [84] Edited by: Kessiaan on 28/11/2008 02:55:53 Originally by: abrasive soap The retribution can't kite because it can't dictate range. The ishkur is faster than the retribution and will likely have a web fit. Not to mention that the ishkur could kite the retribution at 20km while doing 100 dps. Be serious, the range bonus means nothing when your opponent is only honor scrammed. I've found my Ishkur's greatest strength is its great range flexibility. I put rails on it and start shooting as soon as they come into my drone control range. If they continue to close, and I can't kite them (probably because they have an MWD) a short-range ship will get at least halfway through armor before it even comes into range, and my rails might not work worth a damn at 500m but my drones still do their full DPS. And if they stop and start orbiting at 20kms, my drones still do their full DPS and FN Iridium works like a champ at that range, and it comes down to who has a stronger tank / better DPS. But against an unwebbed AB'ing Ishkur missiles are largely ineffective at that range (even with a TP on) and a straight arty or rail boat isn't going to do as much damage as the Ishkur due to its drones.
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.11.28 05:00:00 - [85] I would love to see a little more PG/CPU on all Assault Frigates + a drone dmg mod to the Ishkur. Another low-slot would be cool, to.


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