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Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.11.27 13:29:00 - [61] Originally by: Ghoest Originally by: Dyaven Let's face it, AFs got better with the last patch but they still suck. QFT Yeah a well fitted t1 cruiser will still steamroll any AF. Especially the ones with bigger dronebays and utility highs for neuts. Afs dont need more slots, they just need another bonus. Retri needs one less high one more mid. Thats it. And no it wont be overpowered. Not more then the jaguars and ishkurs flying around everywhere atm. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise
Chaosmancer	Posted - 2008.11.27 13:37:00 - [62] The retri doesnt need another midslot, the retri pilots just needs a friend. That's how Ive solved the problem
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.11.27 13:39:00 - [63] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/11/2008 13:40:08 Originally by: Chaosmancer The retri doesnt need another midslot, the retri pilots just needs a friend. That's how Ive solved the problem And what kind of moron would think that a t2 frig (the t1 variant is frigging better for pvp because of its 2 mids) should need a tackling friend to pvp is a good idea? That's what I would like to know. It's like taking away all drones from a drone boat like vexor and domi and saying, get a friend to assign you drones so you can pvp. GTFO. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise
Chaosmancer	Posted - 2008.11.27 13:50:00 - [64] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/11/2008 13:40:08 Originally by: Chaosmancer The retri doesnt need another midslot, the retri pilots just needs a friend. That's how Ive solved the problem And what kind of moron would think that a t2 frig (the t1 variant is frigging better for pvp because of its 2 mids) should need a tackling friend to pvp is a good idea? That's what I would like to know. It's like taking away all drones from a drone boat like vexor and domi and saying, get a friend to assign you drones so you can pvp. GTFO. It would have been if the retribution was an interceptor pherhaps.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.11.27 14:07:00 - [65] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/11/2008 14:07:29 Originally by: Chaosmancer It would have been if the retribution was an interceptor pherhaps. There is no DPS role in frig class. It's like making a tackling battleship with low dps and light tank. A frig with one mid is stupid. No ifs nor buts. End of story. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2008.11.27 14:24:00 - [66] Give them a level based bonus to eWar resistance of sorts and make them the scourge of Recon ships everywhere :) Retribution is limited with the one midslot, but would be insanely overpowered with two .. tough one .. but then again, when in doubt - boost amarr Shameless plug of idea that keeps growing on me: Let all ship have one high (utility slots) to use as an omni-slot, capable of taking any module, limited by hull restrictions to weapon mounts. That way you never know if the enemy is sporting extra tank, damage, ewar or nos/neut.
Funfactor	Posted - 2008.11.27 14:33:00 - [67] Somebody stated that cruisers are still much better than assult frigs. Well i should say yes and no at the same time. I think well before i choose to engage cruisers as many of them have small guns, small drones or light missiles. For example Rupture is on top of the "no go" list as most of them have neutralaisers fitted. However i see no problem to attack BC or BS. Trust me, dps fitted harbinge will be in big trouble if get into close range. Can you be that brass with your cruiser?
xhardxcorex	Posted - 2008.11.27 15:48:00 - [68] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/11/2008 14:07:29 There is no DPS role in frig class. It's like making a tackling battleship with low dps and light tank. A frig with one mid is stupid. No ifs nor buts. End of story. (cough)Stealthbombers(cough)
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.27 16:17:00 - [69] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 27/11/2008 16:17:42 Originally by: xhardxcorex (cough)Stealthbombers(cough) Wow, so, your brilliant counter-argument is the second most useless class in the game (black ops are useless AND expensive)? Trying to give the DPS role to a frigate is one of the many reasons bombers are trash. Quote: Not everything needs a tackle. This is the same argument as the 'every ship needs a MWD or it's useless' argument. It's simply not true and it's close minded thinking. No, but all frigates do, as tackle ability is the reason you bring a frigate. The Retribution is a joke as a dps ship, a Harbinger/Zealot/etc will do that job much better, and its anti-frigate ability is no better than ships (Harpy, Ishkur, Jaguar) that *can* fit tackle. Oh, and MWDs are mandatory. Fit one or become a comedy killmail. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
Cmndr Griff Opinicus Operations Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.11.27 16:59:00 - [70] If in a gang you can get away with an AB on a Retribution, and do nicely. Also as someone else said, Assault Frigates aren't designed to tackle and maybe just maybe some people like the ships to cost less than say a Zealot for PvP and add DPS to a gang? It isn't a huge amount granted but by flying a Frigate-class ship you shouldn't be expecting Cruiser-class damage. Still, I get about 190dps up close, and 150ish at over 15km which isn't to be laughed at. The one mid isn't the worst thing in the world, I actually think it adds a lot of character to the ship and I like the spare high-slot so I can overload guns for a long time. As for moving a low to mid, I like my tank as it is also. I'd be giving up something that really benefits the ship. Where do ideas like these come from? Monkeys in hats?
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.11.27 17:06:00 - [71] Posting in a Merin Thread I don't want to set the world on fire
I SoStoned	Posted - 2008.11.27 17:14:00 - [72] Hmmm, yeah, to the guy that said he gets almost 200 DPS from his AF... that's why they're more than a little limited on the 'assault' side of things. Taranis can get nearly 300, and Claws over 200, because of their stacked weapon bonuses. And they're tacklers! A fleet of interceptors might not tank as well, but they'll sure push out more DPS, which is a sad truth that shows the limitations of the entire AF tree.
Nexus Kinnon Genos Occidere Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.11.27 17:15:00 - [73] To be fair this Merin chap does seem to rage a bit about ship setups... although I tend to agree with him most of the time.
xhardxcorex	Posted - 2008.11.27 17:26:00 - [74] Originally by: Merin Ryskin troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll I fixed it for you.
Cmndr Griff Opinicus Operations Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.11.27 17:41:00 - [75] Originally by: I SoStoned Hmmm, yeah, to the guy that said he gets almost 200 DPS from his AF... that's why they're more than a little limited on the 'assault' side of things. Taranis can get nearly 300, and Claws over 200, because of their stacked weapon bonuses. And they're tacklers! A fleet of interceptors might not tank as well, but they'll sure push out more DPS, which is a sad truth that shows the limitations of the entire AF tree. It can tank though, that's a huge help. Where do ideas like these come from? Monkeys in hats?
Aesheera Amarr Malum Crusis IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.11.27 17:50:00 - [76] Edited by: Aesheera on 27/11/2008 17:53:54 AFs are fine as they are. Retribution must be used in conjuction with other people. Ishkur already does enough wonders. Want more slots? Fly a cruiser type. T2 or not, they still are 'just' frigates. My idea? Give us a third AF. --
abrasive soap HOMELESS.	Posted - 2008.11.27 20:06:00 - [77] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/11/2008 14:07:29 Originally by: Chaosmancer It would have been if the retribution was an interceptor pherhaps. There is no DPS role in frig class. It's like making a tackling battleship with low dps and light tank. A frig with one mid is stupid. No ifs nor buts. End of story. Why are people saying that the retribution is a dps ship? The ishkur out damages the retribution and it has 3 mids. The blarpy out damages the retribution and it has 4 mids. The enyo outdamages the retribution and it has 2 mids. The wolf out damages the retribution and it has 2 mids (not to mention while doing better damage types). Screw requiring a tackler I want to solo in a retribution instead of having to use a non-laser ship or bringing tacklers (lol at this notion). Blindly saying that the retribution with 2 mids would be overpowered makes no sense. Quote: Also as someone else said, Assault Frigates aren't designed to tackle and maybe just maybe some people like the ships to cost less than say a Zealot for PvP and add DPS to a gang? Maybe you should get an arbitrator, omen or harbinger then. Also those have midslots unlike the retribution. People aren't even stating why the retribution would be overpowered.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.11.27 20:10:00 - [78] Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 27/11/2008 20:11:46 Originally by: xhardxcorex idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy idiocy I fixed it for you. I don't like Merin particularly either, but if that's the best you've got, you should shut up. Originally by: Merin Ryskin Wow, so, your brilliant counter-argument is the second most useless class in the game (black ops are useless AND expensive)? Trying to give the DPS role to a frigate is one of the many reasons bombers are trash. Wrong. Stealth Bombers were rather stupidly designed even to begin with, yes, with silly PG/CPU ratios even with maxed relevant skills, bad slot layouts, ***-poor defenses and utility value, and a lot of other difficulties. But they were still good enough to take out frigates, EASs, AFs and Interceptors with, and the odd ill-prepared cruiser. It was the new missile calculations that left them utterly useless. AFs are for sustained fire, and should thus be able to at least hold their targets somewhat in place, even if they are made so that they can only afford to put on a disruptor and no web. SBs were for alpha, so they didn't need to, and that and the moment of surprise was their offense and* defense. Which has now been taken away.
Cmndr Griff Opinicus Operations Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.11.27 22:11:00 - [79] Originally by: abrasive soap Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/11/2008 14:07:29 Originally by: Chaosmancer It would have been if the retribution was an interceptor pherhaps. There is no DPS role in frig class. It's like making a tackling battleship with low dps and light tank. A frig with one mid is stupid. No ifs nor buts. End of story. Why are people saying that the retribution is a dps ship? The ishkur out damages the retribution and it has 3 mids. The blarpy out damages the retribution and it has 4 mids. The enyo outdamages the retribution and it has 2 mids. The wolf out damages the retribution and it has 2 mids (not to mention while doing better damage types). Screw requiring a tackler I want to solo in a retribution instead of having to use a non-laser ship or bringing tacklers (lol at this notion). Blindly saying that the retribution with 2 mids would be overpowered makes no sense. Quote: Also as someone else said, Assault Frigates aren't designed to tackle and maybe just maybe some people like the ships to cost less than say a Zealot for PvP and add DPS to a gang? Maybe you should get an arbitrator, omen or harbinger then. Also those have midslots unlike the retribution. People aren't even stating why the retribution would be overpowered. Your Ishkur has to get very close for its full dps, where as I can run away and pound you with Scorch while tanking your drones. It has range, something the really hard hitting AFs and Inties don't, meaning while you guys are will inevitably get webbed/scrammed to a snails pace in your effort to deliver 200-300dps, the retribution continues on 'safely' delivering around 150. If something does manage to get close, load up the Amarr Navy, switch on the repairer, overload and prey. I definitely wouldn't say no to a 4th bonus or more damage though that's for sure. Where do ideas like these come from? Monkeys in hats?
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.11.27 22:34:00 - [80] I use AFs to move in Empire. . .Like pimped Shuttles. I am taking to the Jag lately - its beefy, quick, and it looks like the coolest little ship. The Firetail is also a pleasure to zip around in. . .but pvp in it? No point. ---- ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense.
abrasive soap HOMELESS.	Posted - 2008.11.27 22:38:00 - [81] Edited by: abrasive soap on 27/11/2008 22:39:17 Originally by: Cmndr Griff Originally by: abrasive soap Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 27/11/2008 14:07:29 Originally by: Chaosmancer It would have been if the retribution was an interceptor pherhaps. There is no DPS role in frig class. It's like making a tackling battleship with low dps and light tank. A frig with one mid is stupid. No ifs nor buts. End of story. Why are people saying that the retribution is a dps ship? The ishkur out damages the retribution and it has 3 mids. The blarpy out damages the retribution and it has 4 mids. The enyo outdamages the retribution and it has 2 mids. The wolf out damages the retribution and it has 2 mids (not to mention while doing better damage types). Screw requiring a tackler I want to solo in a retribution instead of having to use a non-laser ship or bringing tacklers (lol at this notion). Blindly saying that the retribution with 2 mids would be overpowered makes no sense. Quote: Also as someone else said, Assault Frigates aren't designed to tackle and maybe just maybe some people like the ships to cost less than say a Zealot for PvP and add DPS to a gang? Maybe you should get an arbitrator, omen or harbinger then. Also those have midslots unlike the retribution. People aren't even stating why the retribution would be overpowered. Your Ishkur has to get very close for its full dps, where as I can run away and pound you with Scorch while tanking your drones. It has range, something the really hard hitting AFs and Inties don't, meaning while you guys are will inevitably get webbed/scrammed to a snails pace in your effort to deliver 200-300dps, the retribution continues on 'safely' delivering around 150. If something does manage to get close, load up the Amarr Navy, switch on the repairer, overload and prey. I definitely wouldn't say no to a 4th bonus or more damage though that's for sure. The retribution can't kite because it can't dictate range. The ishkur is faster than the retribution and will likely have a web fit. Not to mention that the ishkur could kite the retribution at 20km while doing 100 dps. Be serious, the range bonus means nothing when your opponent is only honor scrammed.
wide SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.11.28 00:19:00 - [82] Signed. My enyo lacks a drinks holder.
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.11.28 02:30:00 - [83] Only a few AFs need more slots. Whatever made CCP think the reti would be ok with 1 mid, or the enyo with 2 mids, really didn't know jack sh** about the game. However, what AFs as a whole need is their 4th bonus. Why on EARTH anyone in the balancing department thought that they risked making AFs overpowered if they gave them their 4th bonus was drinking a little too much s·kkula=i. Actually that reminds me, Zulu promised me that if AFs were still not up to snuff that they would take action swiftly. Well, I think everyone that flies AFs can agree they are much better, but still will not be viable and will be put back in the closet once the novelty wears off. So..Zulu, time to make your peeps make good on your word. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2008.11.28 02:50:00 - [84] Edited by: Kessiaan on 28/11/2008 02:55:53 Originally by: abrasive soap The retribution can't kite because it can't dictate range. The ishkur is faster than the retribution and will likely have a web fit. Not to mention that the ishkur could kite the retribution at 20km while doing 100 dps. Be serious, the range bonus means nothing when your opponent is only honor scrammed. I've found my Ishkur's greatest strength is its great range flexibility. I put rails on it and start shooting as soon as they come into my drone control range. If they continue to close, and I can't kite them (probably because they have an MWD) a short-range ship will get at least halfway through armor before it even comes into range, and my rails might not work worth a damn at 500m but my drones still do their full DPS. And if they stop and start orbiting at 20kms, my drones still do their full DPS and FN Iridium works like a champ at that range, and it comes down to who has a stronger tank / better DPS. But against an unwebbed AB'ing Ishkur missiles are largely ineffective at that range (even with a TP on) and a straight arty or rail boat isn't going to do as much damage as the Ishkur due to its drones.
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors. Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.11.28 05:00:00 - [85] I would love to see a little more PG/CPU on all Assault Frigates + a drone dmg mod to the Ishkur. Another low-slot would be cool, to.

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