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Why can't the Stealth bomber use a cov ops cloak?

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Rachel Voegel	Posted - 2008.11.28 17:03:00 - [31] Originally by: Srioghal moDhream I think the real reason why the sb cannot fit a cov ops cloak is cpu. It clearly does not have enough cpu to fit one.
Alt MKII Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.28 17:28:00 - [32] Originally by: Crellion Not to take places here but in the first example the cruiser insta dies while in the second it watched the missles come and warps out... Campers only react fast to the sound of the gate they are camping - it usually wakes them up. The missiles will hit them from 120k, because they will not be expecting it. If they are experienced enough and well drilled, then they will also be fast enough to warp out in such a scenario. I have yet to see such a very good drilled camper gang though. And most of them will NOT warp out but try to fight as they are playing too macho to run.
Imaos	Posted - 2008.11.28 17:38:00 - [33] The point why stealth bombers don`t have the ability to fit a cov ops cloak is because you could take down any size of enemy fleet, as long as you have enough stealth bombers to kill a single ship with alpha, WITHOUT retaliation. There is the problem. Nobody likes fights without the ability or chance to fight back. Imaos PS: You weren`t funny posting as Merin Ryskin either. ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
TheG2 Gallente Failure Ink.	Posted - 2008.11.28 17:54:00 - [34] Originally by: Imaos The point why stealth bombers don`t have the ability to fit a cov ops cloak is because you could take down any size of enemy fleet, as long as you have enough stealth bombers to kill a single ship with alpha, WITHOUT retaliation. There is the problem. Nobody likes fights without the ability or chance to fight back. Imaos PS: You weren`t funny posting as Merin Ryskin either. So wait, you're saying every ship is overpowered if you have enough of them? Do you have a newsletter? The SB needs some kind of buff, its not worth it right now and I think cloaked warping is a good compromise.
Ess Erbe Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.28 19:42:00 - [35] Originally by: Imaos The point why stealth bombers don`t have the ability to fit a cov ops cloak is because you could take down any size of enemy fleet, as long as you have enough stealth bombers to kill a single ship with alpha, WITHOUT retaliation. This is dumb. All the cov ops cloak would add to a stealth bomber is the option to actually be a stealthy bomber by warping cloaked. I don't know about you, but I'd be reluctant to engage a gang of 5 Force Recons solo, but I would not be hesitant to engage a gang of 5 stealth bombers, because they are made of paper. Cov ops cloak increases survivability and makes them less of a joke ship with a decent alpha.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.28 19:45:00 - [36] Originally by: Ess Erbe This is dumb. All the cov ops cloak would add to a stealth bomber is the option to actually be a stealthy bomber by warping cloaked. I don't know about you, but I'd be reluctant to engage a gang of 5 Force Recons solo, but I would not be hesitant to engage a gang of 5 stealth bombers, because they are made of paper. Cov ops cloak increases survivability and makes them less of a joke ship with a decent alpha. No locking delay from dropping cloak means they can drop cloak lock target at frig locking speed or even fit a booster for uber lock speed and fire long before the opposition had even finished locking them let alone firing. POST NERF PVP SKILLS: "shall we engage?" "hmmm how many ships do they have?" "more than us" "lets not bother then" "WOW great job FC!!!!" ".................
Imaos	Posted - 2008.11.28 20:13:00 - [37] Originally by: TheG2 Originally by: Imaos The point why stealth bombers don`t have the ability to fit a cov ops cloak is because you could take down any size of enemy fleet, as long as you have enough stealth bombers to kill a single ship with alpha, WITHOUT retaliation. There is the problem. Nobody likes fights without the ability or chance to fight back. Imaos PS: You weren`t funny posting as Merin Ryskin either. So wait, you're saying every ship is overpowered if you have enough of them? Do you have a newsletter? The SB needs some kind of buff, its not worth it right now and I think cloaked warping is a good compromise. Wow. You even quoted the big fat highlighting I did. Let me explain something: If you bring enough ships of the same build you can alpha any single ship if you just get enough together. True dat. But if you engage an enemy fleet with enough incursi to pop a single ship for example you sure pop your target, but I bet that a fair amount of incursi will blow up and you can't repeat it ad libitum. The difference with SB is that you can move free, position yourself, decloakm, engage, cloak up and warp out before the rest of that enemy fleet has a chance to react. And you can do it over and over. Lossless. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
Imaos	Posted - 2008.11.28 20:22:00 - [38] Originally by: Ess Erbe Originally by: Imaos The point why stealth bombers don`t have the ability to fit a cov ops cloak is because you could take down any size of enemy fleet, as long as you have enough stealth bombers to kill a single ship with alpha, WITHOUT retaliation. This is dumb. All the cov ops cloak would add to a stealth bomber is the option to actually be a stealthy bomber by warping cloaked. I don't know about you, but I'd be reluctant to engage a gang of 5 Force Recons solo, but I would not be hesitant to engage a gang of 5 stealth bombers, because they are made of paper. Cov ops cloak increases survivability and makes them less of a joke ship with a decent alpha. Point is, it isn`t you that engages the stealth bombers, it is the stealth bombers engaging you. And it doesn`t matter which size your fleet has. It doesnt matter that they have no tank. You don`t know that they are close because they now warp cloaked. They move as close as they can to an outlying ship of your group. They align. They uncloak and fire. Each fired a salvo and maybe a bomb and entered warp imidiate after dropping their payload. They insta-warp because they are aligned and cloak up in the process (Optional doing some new bookmarks around your fleet). You know they are back when the next ship blows up. What do you do? Drop a bubble on yourself? If there is enough lag around you might not even see most of them in action. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
steave435 Caldari SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.11.28 20:58:00 - [39] I don't have time to read the whole thread atm, but I read about half the first page and previous threads have failed to mention this. If the stealth bomber could use a cov ops cloak, there would be no point in flying a much weaker "normal" cov ops frig that can already fit that cloak.
Ess Erbe Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.28 21:36:00 - [40] Originally by: Imaos Imaos They have to be uncloaked and on grid with a locked target for missiles to impact, bombs have a delay and are launched in front of the ship. All a cov-ops cloak would do would allow them have an actual useful role.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.11.29 00:56:00 - [41] Originally by: Karille The stealth bomber has enough DPS to lay waste to a mining op. Ships with the covert ops cloak have always been balanced by weak dps. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahaaahahaaa... No. Missile nerf; have you noticed it?
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Shadow Company Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.11.29 01:26:00 - [42] There is a problem with comparing Stealth bombers to Submarines. EVE is a game and Submarines are unbalanced. "On the seas there are only two types of ships. Submarines and their targets" To chase down a single submarine these days you need a fleet. To defend yourself against a single submarine these days you also need a fleet. And even then the submarine is more likely to blow up one of yours than get blown up himself. Giving a stealth bomber cov ops cloak would not only remove every role the covert op ships have in the game except probing (as it is they're useful for direct intel and positioning), but it would also be hideously hard to balance with the covert ops featuring not only firepower (the alpha is insane for a frigate) and a small size, but also the ability to move and strike at will. Even as it is today coordinated attacks with stealthbombers and bombs can be unnnerving at worst and pretty lethal at best (8 stealthbombers and a few bubbles is pretty much a poor mans doomsday). ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.29 02:05:00 - [43] Alpha an entire fleet... lol... Even assuming this "fleet" is nothing but un-tanked sniper battleships sitting perfectly still and not returning fire, you're going to need at least 20 bombers to even try. Add in other ships with lower sig/more speed/more tank, and it gets even more absurd. And besides that problem, how exactly are you going to keep a fleet there while you screw around cloaking? Honor tackle? ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Shadow Company Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.11.29 03:22:00 - [44] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Alpha an entire fleet... lol... Even assuming this "fleet" is nothing but un-tanked sniper battleships sitting perfectly still and not returning fire, you're going to need at least 20 bombers to even try. Add in other ships with lower sig/more speed/more tank, and it gets even more absurd. And besides that problem, how exactly are you going to keep a fleet there while you screw around cloaking? Honor tackle? 4 bombs are enough to take an untanked battleship into deep armor or hull (it took my doomsday proof apoc into slightly past half armor, 6-ish bombs took my semi-tanked apoc into hull (and that one was single-doomsday proof). I've been in a couple of fleets that were bomber ambushed. There is a limitation though that you can't fire more than 8 bombs without them detonating each other as they explode and they all need to be of the same type. Among the smaller ships they generally only caught the...how shall I say it, not-too bright individuals while the rest get away, but on occasions it can be nasty. The key is to deploy them either on a half-asleep fleet holding in transit or on a bubbled gate as the fleet exits. If it's on an unreinforced node with a large-ish fleet waiting the Lag does the work for you, otherwise you have to rely on either bubbles or confusion. So far I haven't been in any such engagement when our fleet lost any larger number of ships, but there was plenty of chaos and the exchange between bomber losses and our fleet losses were generally equal or slightly in favor of the bombers. All of these were more small ad-hoc bomber attacks though, mostly because the guys I've been fighting have no need for poor-mans doomsdays as they got real ones. ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.29 03:44:00 - [45] Now how exactly does a covert ops cloak change any of this? If you're doing it right, you're warping to a covert ops frigate and immediately launching your bombs, so it's not like the ability to warp while cloaked is going to change anything. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Shadow Company Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.11.29 04:47:00 - [46] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Now how exactly does a covert ops cloak change any of this? If you're doing it right, you're warping to a covert ops frigate and immediately launching your bombs, so it's not like the ability to warp while cloaked is going to change anything. Well, for one thing 8 bombers could cover every gate in a system (so you got bombed without any real warning on the in-gate? Have fun, they're going to do it on the outgate as well!). All they need is to bookmark their approach spot. It would also make cruise missile bombers capable of striking at will at any position in the system without approach warning and capable of warping out and repeating their attacks from a different direction indefinitely (or at least for as long as they have fresh bookmarks). This far there haven't been a ship with much motivation to do that except with the Falcon. ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn.
Alt MKII Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.29 08:38:00 - [47] Originally by: steave435 I don't have time to read the whole thread atm, but I read about half the first page and previous threads have failed to mention this. If the stealth bomber could use a cov ops cloak, there would be no point in flying a much weaker "normal" cov ops frig that can already fit that cloak. The normal cov ops frig beats the sb hands down in terms of exploration and giving the cov ops to sb will not change that. One is a recon ship the other is a combat recon ship. Not satisfied? Simple: remove SB's ability for cynos. I have not heard of anyone using them for that anyway.
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.29 13:32:00 - [48] covert ops cloaks would make stealth bombers rediculously overpowered, and you're an idiot if you don't see why. In order to balance them they would need to remove bombs and drop the number of missile launcher hardpoints to 1, and high slots to 3. -------------------------- NOTR How to Fail at Eve
Alt MKII Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.29 14:29:00 - [49] Originally by: Rajere covert ops cloaks would make stealth bombers rediculously overpowered, and you're an idiot if you don't see why. In order to balance them they would need to remove bombs and drop the number of missile launcher hardpoints to 1, and high slots to 3. Thank for your kind words. Would you care to elaborate? Why would they become overpowered? I may be an idiot and do not understand but pls humour me.
lebrata Hedion University	Posted - 2008.11.29 14:34:00 - [50] Originally by: Alt MKII Originally by: Rajere covert ops cloaks would make stealth bombers rediculously overpowered, and you're an idiot if you don't see why. In order to balance them they would need to remove bombs and drop the number of missile launcher hardpoints to 1, and high slots to 3. Thank for your kind words. Would you care to elaborate? Why would they become overpowered? I may be an idiot and do not understand but pls humour me. If you cannot understand now when its so simple if you understand the ships in eve, what makes you think understand the explanation?.
Alt MKII Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.29 14:51:00 - [51] Edited by: Alt MKII on 29/11/2008 14:50:58 Originally by: lebrata Originally by: Alt MKII Originally by: Rajere covert ops cloaks would make stealth bombers rediculously overpowered, and you're an idiot if you don't see why. In order to balance them they would need to remove bombs and drop the number of missile launcher hardpoints to 1, and high slots to 3. Thank for your kind words. Would you care to elaborate? Why would they become overpowered? I may be an idiot and do not understand but pls humour me. If you cannot understand now when its so simple if you understand the ships in eve, what makes you think understand the explanation?. If you spend time to read the posts above, half of the people here seem to think it will become overpowered, half do not. I personally believe the latter and I am not nearly convinced as to the first. I am looking for a good argument on WHY it will become overpowered.
lebrata Hedion University	Posted - 2008.11.29 15:26:00 - [52] Originally by: Alt MKII I personally believe the latter and I am not nearly convinced as to the first. I am looking for a good argument on WHY it will become overpowered. Then whats your explanation of why you believe the latter?.
fkingfurious	Posted - 2008.11.29 15:34:00 - [53] It's so ridiculously easy to balance Stealth Bombers around the Cov_ops cloak I'm really quite surprised no-one has mentioned it. Look at the Blockade runners before they fixed the re-cloak delay. Apply that same recloaking delay to a Cov-ops fitted Bomber and hey presto, balance. They can sneak up and de-cloak but they won't be recloaking again before someone has a chance to get them locked down. And if the Bombers are engaging a gang that doesnt have anything that can get a bomber locked down then, oh well. Also, look at Recons and covert ops frigs. Unlike Bombers they don't have instant locking on decloak. They have a 5 second recalibration delay (assuming cloaking lvl IV). Leave this in place on a bomber and looky, another balance to the warped cloaking, and for the total bomber fanatic a reason to train cloaking V and fit those rigs that reduce the recalibration time. Easy innit.
fuer0n	Posted - 2008.11.29 15:42:00 - [54] Originally by: Rajere covert ops cloaks would make stealth bombers rediculously overpowered, and you're an idiot if you don't see why. In order to balance them they would need to remove bombs and drop the number of missile launcher hardpoints to 1, and high slots to 3. i'm new back to the game posting on an alt. i recently camped an popular exit from 0.0 that i know used to carry good loot. we are at war with the alliance, everything worthwhile were pet corps not in the alliance but free to roam from their territory. these people need to be made scared by someone. some were on autopilot.
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.29 16:41:00 - [55] Originally by: fkingfurious It's so ridiculously easy to balance Stealth Bombers around the Cov_ops cloak I'm really quite surprised no-one has mentioned it. Look at the Blockade runners before they fixed the re-cloak delay. Apply that same recloaking delay to a Cov-ops fitted Bomber and hey presto, balance. They can sneak up and de-cloak but they won't be recloaking again before someone has a chance to get them locked down. And if the Bombers are engaging a gang that doesnt have anything that can get a bomber locked down then, oh well. Also, look at Recons and covert ops frigs. Unlike Bombers they don't have instant locking on decloak. They have a 5 second recalibration delay (assuming cloaking lvl IV). Leave this in place on a bomber and looky, another balance to the warped cloaking, and for the total bomber fanatic a reason to train cloaking V and fit those rigs that reduce the recalibration time. Easy innit. Obviously if SB got a covert ops cloak, they would gain the 5-6 second relock delay on targetting losing the insta-locking ability after dropping cloak, they'd also have no scan res penalty, and they would lose the cloaked speed bonus (but move full speed while cloaked). All of that is assumed to be known when you even mention giving stealth bombers the ability to fit covert ops cloaks. No, it does nothing to balance them, they would be rediculously overpowered. Hopefully I do not need to explain the tremendously obvious reason why SB would have to lose bombs if they got a cloak, right? right? ok good, no one is THAT ignorant. As to why they would need to also nerf their missile slots, that too, should be just as obvious, but apparently some people are that ignorant. Here's the simple litmus test for you: Do you think a snipe hac, such as an eagle, beam zealot, arty muninn, cerb, etc, would be balanced if it could fit a covert ops cloak? If not, why? There is no "if so" because no-one is going to answer "yes" to that question, not even if they're just trolling. -------------------------- NOTR How to Fail at Eve
Neth'Rae Gallente Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.02 07:16:00 - [56] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Now how exactly does a covert ops cloak change any of this? If you're doing it right, you're warping to a covert ops frigate and immediately launching your bombs, so it's not like the ability to warp while cloaked is going to change anything. Heard of something called a scanner? I do Sigs, Banners and other Graphics for ISK. Click Here!

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