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Petition for an advanced secondard market forum.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
zacuis Great Big Research	Posted - 2008.11.30 21:46:00 - [1] Edited by: zacuis on 30/11/2008 23:03:50 MD has recently become the home of many newer players asking very basic questions. while this is probably appropriate. i miss the old MD where the market was discussed in more detail. i can only plead with ccp to give us vets a place to do this. preferably hidden away at the bottom of the forum main page. plz sign if u agree also plz give suggestions for a name. ( apologies for grammer and spelling cant be arsed to correct atm )
Packtu'sa Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp	Posted - 2008.11.30 21:54:00 - [2] You realize that 'secondary market' is really what's going on in the Sell Orders forum? The primary investment markets are where stocks and bonds are sold for the first time, as happens in this forum; the secondary markets are where these are exchanged, resold, et cetera. I'd say one forum is perfectly fine for both the primary and secondary investment markets; the problem is that other 'market' stuff gets in the way, typically. Packtu'sa [NCIC] Founder/CEO, Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
zacuis Great Big Research	Posted - 2008.11.30 23:03:00 - [3] Edited by: zacuis on 30/11/2008 23:04:26 yes i do understand that. perhaps my choice of name was poor. i did ask for naming suggestions in my post tho. im more asking for an advanced market forum like the old MD was. ive removed the secondary part as it confuses the matter
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Strength in Numbers.	Posted - 2008.12.01 00:12:00 - [4] Hey Zac o/ == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Atheana Vernius Minmatar Tectrian Ventures	Posted - 2008.12.01 00:46:00 - [5] Ok I have to ask why? Why move it and a more basic question. Why can this forum not serve both purposes? I'm sure most people are capable of taking a wild guess from the thread title is in line with what they want to discuss on here while at the same time ignoring the rest. Obviously I am one of the new people in here, and as far as I can tell correct me if i'm wrong but you were new too? I found this forum through a random search, this is how I found it, but how would other people find a semi-hidden forum, as iÆm sure most people donÆt even know where the search tab is, and does it even search right things?? Had I not found this part of the forums I would have struggled to have learnt some of the finer details of my current/new job, and would of spent probably the next 3/4 months mining away earning my few mill an hour until eventually I got bored and quit. Is this the fate of many a miner? To be honest I donÆt know. However after spending a good week reading pretty much all posts that I could understand I felt that this was part of the game that I wanted to play, So through inadvertently (sp) finding this place I have changed the way I play eve all together,(sold my miner account to help start my trading account) thus keeping me interested. I always said when I first started playing that its was trade side of the game that I love however I also admitted I didn't grasp the true complexity of eve markets, but through the clear visibility of this forum I am beginning a long road to riches In my humble opinion there is argument for a sub-forum called "Stocks 'n' Shares" or something of the sort that deals just with the IPO/Share dealing posts, thus enabling the pure market players who aren't interested in general chit chat can simply browse the posts that they are interested in, namely stock dealing Finally the basic questions argument is to me a non-argument. What is ones persons basic is another persons complex, we all have to start somewhere, although the people who post asking questions such as "how can I get rich quick" "whatÆs easiest way to make money" etc then these are more lazy or ignorant posts instead of a quest for self taught knowledge, and as such should be either ignored or moved to the general new starters forums. Hope this makes sense as its 00:30 and been online since about 8am To know what people really think, pay regard to what they do, rather than what they say. An optimist may see a light where there is none, but why must the pessimist always run to blow it out? Re
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:11:00 - [6] This is getting silly. The move has happened, what's done is done. It shouldn't be moved again. Everyone has a right to ask questions, what annoys people is that it looks like some people can't be bothered to do their own research. If it is a silly thread ignore it and move on. To the OP, you don't exactly have a rich and varied posting history so I am at quite a loss to undewrstand for you wanting to make this statement?
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:13:00 - [7] lucky me i get to use one of my favorite pics twice in one week --
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:33:00 - [8] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 01/12/2008 01:34:31 Originally by: Atheana Vernius Ok I have to ask why? Why move it and a more basic question. Why can this forum not serve both purposes? Just look at the topics, the history of topics in here and discussions, and see why it can't serve both. You don't see "Hey guys, how do I set people blue?" or "Where can I get Corp skillbooks" or "Tips for running a corp?" in COAD now do you? Same same (but different) for here. Also, more pertinent to here is it's hyper-competitive environment (since EVE has a hyper-capitalistic market). Tips make ISK in here, and even the most basic question can make you a lot of ISK if you apply it correctly. Holding peoples hands for questions like "How should i set up my market orders" and "What items should I trade?" which may seem perfectly innocuous are actually pretty similar to asking in COAD "Hey Alliance X, simple question, where are your mining fleets so we can destroy them?".

CCP Mitnal C C P	Posted - 2008.12.01 01:50:00 - [9] One of the reasons why there was a forum rejig in the first place was because we had too many sub forums. Now MD is more prominent, it attracts more players to it. As I've explained to a few MD regulars that emailed in, the price of becoming more prominent and more noticed by decision makers, is that more people are attracted to this sub forum. Please remember that the forums are for all and that elitism or asking for more fences to be built helps no one. Mitnal Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Email

Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.01 02:55:00 - [10] Originally by: CCP Mitnal One of the reasons why there was a forum rejig in the first place was because we had too many sub forums. Now MD is more prominent, it attracts more players to it. As I've explained to a few MD regulars that emailed in, the price of becoming more prominent and more noticed by decision makers, is that more people are attracted to this sub forum. Please remember that the forums are for all and that elitism or asking for more fences to be built helps no one. That's rubbish tbqfh. You put MD here because it was a 'quality' forum with a highly vibrant community that you hoped would serve as a self-moderating and prominent example of how a good forum should be in the face of the trashtalk that is GD and CAOD. The problem is you continue to think that MD is a forum. For reasons I've stated here, it isn't. MD does want (and need) fresh blood, but that blood needs be spilled before it can be written with. There are 2 things that CCP could do really easily to help. Ban altposting like in CAOD (if you have the time to do it there, you can most certainly do it in here), and have a 1 month time limit to posting anything in MD, which would naturally require an application to join. Either that or have a 6-9 month age limit on characters that can post in here. Chairman \| www.eve-bank.net
Cierejai Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.01 03:06:00 - [11] Originally by: Mr Horizontal Originally by: CCP Mitnal One of the reasons why there was a forum rejig in the first place was because we had too many sub forums. Now MD is more prominent, it attracts more players to it. As I've explained to a few MD regulars that emailed in, the price of becoming more prominent and more noticed by decision makers, is that more people are attracted to this sub forum. Please remember that the forums are for all and that elitism or asking for more fences to be built helps no one. That's rubbish tbqfh. You put MD here because it was a 'quality' forum with a highly vibrant community that you hoped would serve as a self-moderating and prominent example of how a good forum should be in the face of the trashtalk that is GD and CAOD. The problem is you continue to think that MD is a forum. For reasons I've stated here, it isn't. MD does want (and need) fresh blood, but that blood needs be spilled before it can be written with. There are 2 things that CCP could do really easily to help. Ban altposting like in CAOD (if you have the time to do it there, you can most certainly do it in here), and have a 1 month time limit to posting anything in MD, which would naturally require an application to join. Either that or have a 6-9 month age limit on characters that can post in here. Please remember that the forums are for all and that elitism or asking for more fences to be built helps no one.
Maeda Toshiie	Posted - 2008.12.01 03:30:00 - [12] Edited by: Maeda Toshiie on 01/12/2008 03:30:44 Indeed, you'd think this was a forum for brain surgeons instead of gaming nerds. The elitism has been looking a little silly. Lot's of folks in here that know a lot about the game, this is why I lurk. But a couple could stand to remember the "game" part. If you haven't the energy to read/post...don't.
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2008.12.01 03:32:00 - [13] Originally by: CCP Mitnal One of the reasons why there was a forum rejig in the first place was because we had too many sub forums. My apologies but I'm not following how too many sub forums necessitates moving MD? Originally by: CCP Mitnal Now MD is more prominent, it attracts more players to it. As I've explained to a few MD regulars that emailed in, the price of becoming more prominent and more noticed by decision makers, is that more people are attracted to this sub forum. We didn't ask to become more prominent. The most significant posters on this forum, who have contributed so much to making it a place of meaningful discussion, have expressed uniformly negative opinions about us being moved. No one has actually given a reason for it to be moved to this oh-so-prominent location. Originally by: CCP Mitnal Remember that the forums are for all and that elitism or asking for more fences to be built helps no one. With all do respect, the forums are each for specific material and that's the only way they can function. They are not for all and fences are sometimes necessary. The moderators have recently instituted a ban on all alt-posting in CAOD, is that not a fence? In economic parlance, barriers of entry are crucial for any healthy market, the same can be said for forums. Furthermore, if you think treating people like Chribba and CalmDown as an elite replete with special privileges is wrong, well, then I guess you must have serious issues with CCP because they do just that. To summarize: Many valid points have been made, particularly by Mr. Horizontal. We would appreciate a direct response to them. Why is MD being moved to a more prominent location?
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.12.01 04:11:00 - [14] Originally by: CCP Mitnal Please remember that the forums are for all and that elitism or asking for more fences to be built helps no one. First we don't want more fences its that we want people to AT LEAST USE THE SEARCH OR LOOK ON THE FIRST OR SECOND PAGE TO SEE IF THAT TOPIC HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT. Is that too much to ask for? Almost anyone signing up to play an internet game knows what the forums are and should know that their questions are more than likely covered from past topics. You can't expect us to play nice when the same questions are asked over and over again, we do this for fun, you are paid to police this (btw I won't do it for all the beer in the world). It really is a matter of repeat offenives by different players. How do you propose this is dealed with in a non-elitism manner? BTW if I don't like the responce I could just keep making new threads asking the same questions for the next 3 weeks
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.12.01 04:47:00 - [15] I was looking through 3 pages of MD threads and I've only found the obvious noob discussions: "What's happening to ore prices?" "Big Bucks Players... How do you do it?" "is there a order comparison tool ?" "People paying more that I ask and other strange stuff" "Simple(?) question" "Mineral Supplier Wanted" "Reprocessing Calculator" "Quick noobish question" Question about a couple blueprints." Out of 90 threads. It's all posted by people who can't bother to do research. Is that all it takes for us elitist to go up in arms over? Probably not. But, if we start reading through not so obviously noob discussions, it becomes painfully obvious that more and more discussions are made by people who didn't bother doing any research. Is that enough for us elitist to go up in arms over? Hell yeah, I just wasted my valuable time, IE: FW Trading Hubs and guess what? The OP of that thread didn't bother to spend 10 minute of his time doing research first. On the other hand, has any of us "elitist" noticed that when MD moved up, a floodgate of IPO/Bonds were opened? I like to think it's a good thing for one reason, growth of secondary market. However, it allows far too many unknowns and alts to creep into MD and that correlates to the increased potential for scams and failed business. I think corporations like One Stop Mining shop unknowing responded to that by issuing bonds at a price of 1 billion each, something that noobs cannot be part of. For the time being, I think we need to let MD be what it is right now and see what happens in few month. Will it become a forum like Science and Industry? A forum that is full of repeated discussion, meaningful discussion becomes a rarity, and people making new threads without doing any shred of research? Or will MD become its old self like it was a month ago? A forum that is full of meaningful discussions, full of people looking to include others in their business venture through IPO and bonds, and people doing their research first? Sidenote: With too many alts here, I think there's a need for a similar rule from CAOD ("No alts allowed") to be enacted here. 10% for Returning Customers
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.12.01 05:00:00 - [16] Quote: Sidenote: With too many alts here, I think there's a need for a similar rule from CAOD ("No alts allowed") to be enacted here. Sadly this is something I'd not like to see happen, much that I agree with it, but it'd mean I could no longer post here (Part of a player-corp with less than 6 members). Should I get excluded from here too (not that I care much for being excluded from COAD) I'd be quickly switching that subscription off again. Improve Market Competition!
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.12.01 05:08:00 - [17] I said no alts allowed, not corporations with less than 10 members. 10% for Returning Customers
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2008.12.01 05:11:00 - [18] Edited by: Kwint Sommer on 01/12/2008 05:11:04 Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Quote: Sidenote: With too many alts here, I think there's a need for a similar rule from CAOD ("No alts allowed") to be enacted here. Sadly this is something I'd not like to see happen, much that I agree with it, but it'd mean I could no longer post here (Part of a player-corp with less than 6 members). Should I get excluded from here too (not that I care much for being excluded from COAD) I'd be quickly switching that subscription off again. I would hope that they would enforce the spirit of the law, not the letter and I'm going to avoid making any discouraging comments about the quality of some of the mods. For instance, PublicRelations Kwint is an alt but he is identified as an instrument of business belonging to a valid poster, namely myself. Actually, a no-alt policy combined with a sticky warning people against posting noob threads and a moderator drafted from the ranks of MD elite and empowered only to patrol this forum could do the trick. But why do all that when you can just put the forum back where it was in the first place....
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.12.01 05:12:00 - [19] Originally by: Brock Nelson I said no alts allowed, not corporations with less than 10 members. Sorry, only read the "Similar rule from CAOD" bit,,, with the rule in CAOD being you have to be in a corp of at least 10 members and you can't be in an NPC corp. Improve Market Competition!
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2008.12.01 05:12:00 - [20] Originally by: Brock Nelson I said no alts allowed, not corporations with less than 10 members. He's referring to the fine print on the no-alts rule on CAOD.
Leya Marcsson	Posted - 2008.12.01 05:26:00 - [21] Please remember that the forums are for all and that elitism or asking for more fences to be built helps no one.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.12.01 05:28:00 - [22] Point taken on the no alt rule. 10% for Returning Customers
Leya Marcsson	Posted - 2008.12.01 05:38:00 - [23] Edited by: Leya Marcsson on 01/12/2008 05:44:08 Originally by: Brock Nelson I was looking through 3 pages of MD threads and I've only found the obvious noob discussions ... (9 thread titels) ... Out of 90 threads. 9 out of 90 are 10%. So we have 10% somehow noobish (some of the 9 threads turned out pretty well later) threads. 10% are hardly "i've only found obvious noob questions". 10% are hardly "overrun by noobs". 10% are hardly a dimished quality. On the other hand, we have 4 "we are doomed by noobs" threads. so we have 9 basic but ontopic threads vs 4 stupit and oftopic threads - as a market genius you'll see that your cause start to look silly once you run the numbers. Please remember that the forums are for all and that elitism or asking for more fences to be built helps no one.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.12.01 05:45:00 - [24] LOL, are you serious? Did you even bother reading the rest of my post? I didn't bother reading the rest of your post because...well, honestly why should I? Your first sentence display ignorance and is exactly why us "elitist" are fussing. 10% for Returning Customers
Frenden Dax	Posted - 2008.12.01 06:01:00 - [25] I concluded last night that Leya is a troll; don't waste your energy trying to win.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.12.01 06:07:00 - [26] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 01/12/2008 06:07:47 Originally by: Frenden Dax I concluded last night that Leya is a troll; don't waste your energy trying to win. Quick, someone get the fire or acid! On a side, proof we're not the only ones who get our nickers in a knot. Specifically the first response: Quote: This isn't FAQ, it's CAOD. Then again it's actually sort of fitting I suppose. Improve Market Competition!
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.12.01 06:13:00 - [27] Perhaps CCP is mistaken, did I not read that this forum is in fact, called "Market Discussion" not "Market FAQ"? dis⋅cus⋅sion /dɪˈskʌʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [di-skuhsh-uhn] Show IPA Pronunciation ûnoun an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., esp. to explore solutions; informal debate. FAQ /fµk, ˈɛfˈeɪˈkyu/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fak, ef-ey-kyoo] Show IPA Pronunciation ûnoun, plural FAQs, FAQ's. Chiefly Computers. a document, in question and answer format, that introduces newcomers to a topic, as in an Internet newsgroup. 10% for Returning Customers
Badada	Posted - 2008.12.01 06:16:00 - [28] There is room on the current MD for any and all discussion's of Eve's in game markets. Nerfing new or less knowledgeable Eve account holders from posting, or threatening/begging ccp to move MD to the equivalent of forum board high sec helps no one. Eve is a harsh place and if this forum truly is pvp, then the risk of noobs goes with the reward of open discussion.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.12.01 06:20:00 - [29] Quote: There is room on the current MD for any and all discussion's of Eve's in game markets. Nerfing new or less knowledgeable Eve account holders from posting, or threatening/begging ccp to move MD to the equivalent of forum board high sec helps no one. Eve is a harsh place and if this forum truly is pvp, then the risk of noobs goes with the reward of open discussion. Then let me post on CAOD hm? Improve Market Competition!
Badada	Posted - 2008.12.01 06:32:00 - [30] Originally by: Brock Nelson Perhaps CCP is mistaken, did I not read that this forum is in fact, called "Market Discussion" not "Market FAQ"? dis⋅cus⋅sion /dɪˈskʌʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [di-skuhsh-uhn] Show IPA Pronunciation ûnoun an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., esp. to explore solutions; informal debate. FAQ /fµk, ˈɛfˈeɪˈkyu/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fak, ef-ey-kyoo] Show IPA Pronunciation ûnoun, plural FAQs, FAQ's. Chiefly Computers. a document, in question and answer format, that introduces newcomers to a topic, as in an Internet newsgroup. It's both Brock. As ccp said "This is for discussing the market, both how it works and to share market tips."

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