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Petition for an advanced secondard market forum.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Leya Marcsson	Posted - 2008.12.01 06:33:00 - [31] open discussion seems to be the last thing those guys want to engage in. They dont want to "waste their time" on people without enhanced knowledge about the eve economy who did not yet learned how to do a propper research. They want back to their cosy, serious, "high market" and talk quality stuff. - but I don't remember a quality addition to the market discussions by those guys in the first place! (tho, i'll now get blamed on alt posting again - whotf cares?) heck, perhaps we should use the chance to get rid of them - but that would help anyone just like Mitnal said: "Please remember that the forums are for all and that elitism or asking for more fences to be built helps no one." if this is true for noobs, this is also true for other freaks - so i guess leya luv u too :D
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2008.12.01 06:46:00 - [32] CCP, I implore you to think of what MD was and might yet be. Think of the stock exchanges and trading software; think of all the issues your 2-term CSM LaVista Vista has brought before you; think of EBANK and the depth they bring to this economy. Now, look at the post below. Compare this week's threads to a month past, a year, two. See what has happened to Science and Industry? Well MD is being set down that path. If this is what you want then so be it but we will all be the poorer for it. I've ***ed and moaned enough for one evening. Hopefully that will actually get read by someone above Mitnal's pay grade, well I guess that's not hard seeing as he doesn't have one, being a community volunteer and all.... Originally by:** Leya Marcsson open discussion seems to be the last thing those guys want to engage in. They dont want to "waste their time" on people without enhanced knowledge about the eve economy who did not yet learned how to do a propper research. They want back to their cosy, serious, "high market" and talk quality stuff. - but I don't remember a quality addition to the market discussions by those guys in the first place! (tho, i'll now get blamed on alt posting again - whotf cares?) heck, perhaps we should use the chance to get rid of them - but that would help anyone just like Mitnal said: "Please remember that the forums are for all and that elitism or asking for more fences to be built helps no one." if this is true for noobs, this is also true for other freaks - so i guess leya luv u too :D
Cheopis One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.01 08:01:00 - [33] Originally by: CCP Mitnal One of the reasons why there was a forum rejig in the first place was because we had too many sub forums. Now MD is more prominent, it attracts more players to it. As I've explained to a few MD regulars that emailed in, the price of becoming more prominent and more noticed by decision makers, is that more people are attracted to this sub forum. Please remember that the forums are for all and that elitism or asking for more fences to be built helps no one. There is no such thing as too many sub forums when the sub forums serve specific needs. There was a need for a general information economy thread. There is also a need for a slow paced forum for high stakes markets which are completely unsupported by any ingame structures. What we have now is a frankenstein monster forum that serves neither need appropriately.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.12.01 08:19:00 - [34] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 01/12/2008 08:25:36 Originally by: Mr Horizontal There are 2 things that CCP could do really easily to help. Ban altposting like in CAOD (if you have the time to do it there, you can most certainly do it in here), and have a 1 month time limit to posting anything in MD, which would naturally require an application to join. Either that or have a 6-9 month age limit on characters that can post in here. I understand that there are 3-4 MD regulars that do not enjoy reading new players posts, let alone helping them, etc. In order to alleviate their suffering, some simple filtering options could be added to the Forums Settings to avoid seeing the posts belonging to alts or chars less than 6-9 months old. Is that what you're trying to say Mr. Horizontal? I am not in the habit of wasting my time with/educating dinosaurs that can't tell the difference between RL and a game so if it isn't too much to ask I will also require a filter to avoid seeing interminable posts untagged with [IPO] / [Bond] Thank you CCP. Black Sun Empire
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2008.12.01 08:58:00 - [35] I don't see what the issue is here. [WTS] Tech II Component BPO Sets
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.01 09:04:00 - [36] Originally by: CCP Mitnal One of the reasons why there was a forum rejig in the first place was because we had too many sub forums. Now MD is more prominent, it attracts more players to it. As I've explained to a few MD regulars that emailed in, the price of becoming more prominent and more noticed by decision makers, is that more people are attracted to this sub forum. Please remember that the forums are for all and that elitism or asking for more fences to be built helps no one. As someone who reads MD for over 3 years, I completly agree with Mitnal's opinion. There is no problem at all.
Cheopis One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.01 09:20:00 - [37] Originally by: Robacz Originally by: CCP Mitnal One of the reasons why there was a forum rejig in the first place was because we had too many sub forums. Now MD is more prominent, it attracts more players to it. As I've explained to a few MD regulars that emailed in, the price of becoming more prominent and more noticed by decision makers, is that more people are attracted to this sub forum. Please remember that the forums are for all and that elitism or asking for more fences to be built helps no one. As someone who reads MD for over 3 years, I completly agree with Mitnal's opinion. There is no problem at all. I'm certain there were a few people that agreed with Emporer Joseph II when he told Mozart that there were "too many notes" in "The Marriage of Figaro" Perhaps in that time you would have numbered amongst Mozart's detractors. Fortunately for music, Joseph II's opinions were not widely held. CCP has held up the economic structures in EVE as being something they are proud of. Well, I've always been told that when you are proud of something, you treat it with care. I see no evidence of this at all in the treatment of the MD crowd, which are a driving force in the economy which CCP appears to be so proud of.
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.01 09:21:00 - [38] Originally by: Cheopis Originally by: Robacz Originally by: CCP Mitnal One of the reasons why there was a forum rejig in the first place was because we had too many sub forums. Now MD is more prominent, it attracts more players to it. As I've explained to a few MD regulars that emailed in, the price of becoming more prominent and more noticed by decision makers, is that more people are attracted to this sub forum. Please remember that the forums are for all and that elitism or asking for more fences to be built helps no one. As someone who reads MD for over 3 years, I completly agree with Mitnal's opinion. There is no problem at all. I'm certain there were a few people that agreed with Emporer Joseph II when he told Mozart that there were "too many notes" in "The Marriage of Figaro" Perhaps in that time you would have numbered amongst Mozart's detractors. Fortunately for music, Joseph II's opinions were not widely held. CCP has held up the economic structures in EVE as being something they are proud of. Well, I've always been told that when you are proud of something, you treat it with care. I see no evidence of this at all in the treatment of the MD crowd, which are a driving force in the economy which CCP appears to be so proud of. Then leave? Can I have your stuff?
Cheopis One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.01 09:37:00 - [39] Originally by: Robacz Originally by: Cheopis Originally by: Robacz Originally by: CCP Mitnal One of the reasons why there was a forum rejig in the first place was because we had too many sub forums. Now MD is more prominent, it attracts more players to it. As I've explained to a few MD regulars that emailed in, the price of becoming more prominent and more noticed by decision makers, is that more people are attracted to this sub forum. Please remember that the forums are for all and that elitism or asking for more fences to be built helps no one. As someone who reads MD for over 3 years, I completly agree with Mitnal's opinion. There is no problem at all. I'm certain there were a few people that agreed with Emporer Joseph II when he told Mozart that there were "too many notes" in "The Marriage of Figaro" Perhaps in that time you would have numbered amongst Mozart's detractors. Fortunately for music, Joseph II's opinions were not widely held. CCP has held up the economic structures in EVE as being something they are proud of. Well, I've always been told that when you are proud of something, you treat it with care. I see no evidence of this at all in the treatment of the MD crowd, which are a driving force in the economy which CCP appears to be so proud of. Then leave? Can I have your stuff? An excellent rejoinder, sir. May I recommend a refresher course in observation and logic? One can see flaws, and yet still enjoy that which is flawed. That does not mean that flaws should be accepted with no effort to correct them, which is what you appear to be proposing.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.12.01 09:45:00 - [40] Originally by: Cheopis An excellent rejoinder, sir. May I recommend a refresher course in observation and logic? One can see flaws, and yet still enjoy that which is flawed. That does not mean that flaws should be accepted with no effort to correct them, which is what you appear to be proposing. Feel free to leave anytime and take your course in observation and logic but leave your stuff to me please. Black Sun Empire

Feronia Gallente Magma Industries	Posted - 2008.12.01 09:53:00 - [41] This is a joke, right ? If you don't like the posts with basic questions, don't read them. And certainly don't reply. Some people seem to forget they once started as a newbie and probably did post some silly question in here too. Its time to stop this elitism crap. Nobody is better because he plays longer, has a bigger wallet or thinks he's smarter. And the last thing we need is forum access restrictions. If you want a restricted private forum, go make one.
Einstein's Ghost	Posted - 2008.12.01 09:55:00 - [42] I just wish all those IPO threads would disappear... The are boring as hell
Cheopis One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.01 10:01:00 - [43] Hrm, apologies for going a little offtrack there. There does have to be room for disagreement, even when people are disagreeing with me I would, however, like to see a CCP employee with decision making power indicate here why it is that they believe it is appropriate for one of the major components of the economic engine of EVE to be required to both serve as a kindergarden and the Federal Reserve Bank at the same time. The EVE economy is one of the shining stars in CCP's cap, why not treat it like one? Sure, a shares and bonds market forum would be a slow forum. That slow forum is what helped start the economy that CCP is proud of. A future slow forum would encourage future growth of the out-of-game economy, especially if the general gameplay discussion forum for Markets were kept, and used appropriately for discussion and eventual direction to the high stakes tables.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.12.01 10:12:00 - [44] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 01/12/2008 10:13:12 Originally by: Cheopis Hrm, apologies for going a little offtrack there. There does have to be room for disagreement, even when people are disagreeing with me This is the point where you should just STFU unless you want to earn yourself a trolling reputation. Originally by: Cheopis I would, however, like to see a CCP employee with decision making power indicate here why it is that they believe it is appropriate for one of the major components of the economic engine of EVE to be required to both serve as a kindergarden and the Federal Reserve Bank at the same time. [...] No CCP employee would defy the will of the community in this matter. May I recommend that you engage in some less stressful activities like mining and ratting, or perhaps even take a hike in order to enjoy the rural landscape for a while? Black Sun Empire
Cheopis One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.01 10:14:00 - [45] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 01/12/2008 10:13:12 Originally by: Cheopis Hrm, apologies for going a little offtrack there. There does have to be room for disagreement, even when people are disagreeing with me This is the point where you should just STFU unless you want to earn yourself a trolling reputation. Originally by: Cheopis I would, however, like to see a CCP employee with decision making power indicate here why it is that they believe it is appropriate for one of the major components of the economic engine of EVE to be required to both serve as a kindergarden and the Federal Reserve Bank at the same time. [...] No CCP employee would defy the will of the community in this matter. May I recommend that you engage in some less stressful activities like mining and ratting, or perhaps even take a hike in order to enjoy the rural landscape for a while?
Artanixir Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.01 10:21:00 - [46] Edited by: Artanixir on 01/12/2008 10:22:54 I don't see the issue to be honest. Oh yes, I don't post often but I read alot of the things happening on here. (before moaning about my history or something) All I've seen recently, is alot of "newbish" questions being asked, specifically the ore price topic, but still, its market discussion. What annoys me, is the players who know why, and are well versed in the workings of the market, do not actually help these players in learning about the market. Instead they moan about the fact that this is a stupid question and moan about the forum being moved. Fact is, CCP have made this decision, for whatever reason, i don't know, and like the missile nerf, or the nano nerf before that, or whatever nerf before that, its not going to change. It has changed, adapt, or leave, whatever. Just because somebody has posted what you consider a "stupid" question, doesn't mean that you are forced to hit that reply button and flame them and the thread for its very existance. (however, the search button should be highlighted, flashing and used before the new thread button is pressed lol) edit: i should make sure i make sense before posting :S --- If Common sense is so common, why is it so rare
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.01 10:24:00 - [47] Originally by: Cheopis An excellent rejoinder, sir. May I recommend a refresher course in observation and logic? One can see flaws, and yet still enjoy that which is flawed. That does not mean that flaws should be accepted with no effort to correct them, which is what you appear to be proposing. I countered all your arguments in the other thread. Your reply to arguments is repeating same thing again and again like broken LP, ignoring what others say. What else than "Can I have your stuff?" do you expect? Discussion is pointless, because I don't even agree there is any problem to be discussed.
Cheopis One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.01 10:26:00 - [48] Originally by: Artanixir Edited by: Artanixir on 01/12/2008 10:22:54 I don't see the issue to be honest. Oh yes, I don't post often but I read alot of the things happening on here. (before moaning about my history or something) All I've seen recently, is alot of "newbish" questions being asked, specifically the ore price topic, but still, its market discussion. What annoys me, is the players who know why, and are well versed in the workings of the market, do not actually help these players in learning about the market. Instead they moan about the fact that this is a stupid question and moan about the forum being moved. Fact is, CCP have made this decision, for whatever reason, i don't know, and like the missile nerf, or the nano nerf before that, or whatever nerf before that, its not going to change. It has changed, adapt, or leave, whatever. Just because somebody has posted what you consider a "stupid" question, doesn't mean that you are forced to hit that reply button and flame them and the thread for its very existance. (however, the search button should be highlighted, flashing and used before the new thread button is pressed lol) edit: i should make sure i make sense before posting :S The thing is that there are quite a few of us, myself included, who would populate BOTH an appropriately placed shares and bonds sales forum, and a market Q & A forum. While I am waxing a little annoyed at the current time with the 2+2=5 crowd, a review of my posts will indicate that when the questions of noobish nature to arise, I am one of the ones that does actually attempt a legitimate answer.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.12.01 10:31:00 - [49] This thread should be locked. Black Sun Empire
Cheopis One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.01 10:33:00 - [50] Originally by: YouGotRipped This thread should be locked. If locked, another will be created. This is a critical discussion that you are losing, and requesting a lockdown will not change that.

YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.12.01 10:36:00 - [51] Originally by: Cheopis Originally by: YouGotRipped This thread should be locked. If locked, another will be created. This is a critical discussion that you are losing, and requesting a lockdown will not change that. Don't worry, we'll just ignore it. Adieu Black Sun Empire
Artanixir Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.01 10:39:00 - [52] Edited by: Artanixir on 01/12/2008 10:40:03 Quote: The thing is that there are quite a few of us, myself included, who would populate BOTH an appropriately placed shares and bonds sales forum, and a market Q & A forum. While I am waxing a little annoyed at the current time with the 2+2=5 crowd, a review of my posts will indicate that when the questions of noobish nature to arise, I am one of the ones that does actually attempt a legitimate answer. I didn't mean to paint everybody with the same brush, to be honest, there could be a use for sub-forums, maybe having the IPO's and investments seperate, and having a sub category like the alliance stuff. However, moaning that "newbs are posting stupid crap" will never stand as a reason to actually make a progressive change. Its obvious since the change has been made a few more people will take notice of the market in eve ("i can make isk without undocking?!?! :O") and there will be a surge of "stupidity". But only once that surge has passed, will CCP be able to make a clear review of this forum, and decide whether it should be split again or not. Until that time, leave, stop posting, make a private forum, or adapt. I don't believe any further "discussion" of the issue will force a change from CCP. Whether it is actually required or not. --- If Common sense is so common, why is it so rare
zacuis Great Big Research	Posted - 2008.12.01 12:28:00 - [53] firstly while i can understand asking for this change might appear elitist that was not my intention. infact i actually said that MD being open to newer players was appropriate. Originally by: cosmoray To the OP, you don't exactly have a rich and varied posting history so I am at quite a loss to undewrstand for you wanting to make this statement? yes i rarly post in md but i do read it alot. hope that explains the why. im currently worth close to 100billion isk so i think i qualify as a market vet. MD is just about the only forum i use on eve-o. to ray u ask why this is an issue. well for me MD has gone from reading the guardian to reading the sun thats why its an issue for me. this isnt a matter of snobbery or elitism its just about the quality of disscusion in this forum. im not asking for the MD forum to be moved back to how it was im just asking that they create a new forum subsection.
TheVad Amarr Metalworks	Posted - 2008.12.01 12:37:00 - [54] There is a very SIMPLE solution. Create an off site (non CCP controlled) forum and people can use that site as they see fit. Fires of Heaven for example accomplished this during the Everquest days so I don't see initial "visibility" as an excuse why this can't happen. If the forum provides value, people will use it. TheVad Project Manager & Chief Editor\| www.eve-bank.net
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2008.12.01 12:38:00 - [55] Originally by: zacuis to ray u ask why this is an issue. well for me MD has gone from reading the guardian to reading the sun thats why its an issue for me. this isnt a matter of snobbery or elitism its just about the quality of disscusion in this forum. im not asking for the MD forum to be moved back to how it was im just asking that they create a new forum subsection. The Guardian is the worst broadsheet. And comparing it to The Sun is snobbery. Compare the forum index to a shelf in the newsagents. You glance past The Sun and that bastion of literary excellence The Independent and reach for The Guardian. Why not the same when reading posts? Or should we demand the narrow pages be sold in an entirely different section so we don't have to be affronted by their garish headlines and page threes? [WTS] Tech II Component BPO Sets
zacuis Great Big Research	Posted - 2008.12.01 12:44:00 - [56] fair point well made. but i still miss the old MD
TheVad Amarr Metalworks	Posted - 2008.12.01 12:49:00 - [57] Edited by: TheVad on 01/12/2008 12:51:21 Originally by: zacuis firstly while i can understand asking for this change might appear elitist that was not my intention. infact i actually said that MD being open to newer players was appropriate. Originally by: cosmoray To the OP, you don't exactly have a rich and varied posting history so I am at quite a loss to undewrstand for you wanting to make this statement? yes i rarly post in md but i do read it alot. hope that explains the why. im currently worth close to 100billion isk so i think i qualify as a market vet. MD is just about the only forum i use on eve-o. to ray u ask why this is an issue. well for me MD has gone from reading the guardian to reading the sun thats why its an issue for me. this isnt a matter of snobbery or elitism its just about the quality of disscusion in this forum. im not asking for the MD forum to be moved back to how it was im just asking that they create a new forum subsection. Another example might be the following: You order The Economist and instead you get sent the local papers "market section". I understand peopleÆs needs to want to have a more specialized forum. I also understand that they donÆt want to see topics that have been answered over and over again over the years (which a basic search would answer their questions). A Newbie forum and a more mature forum dose make sense to me. The only potential drawl back is that the newbie forum may not be well supported by the older MD users and thus we may lose people wanting to become active in the market aspect of the game if they become frustrated. TheVad. Project Manager & Chief Editor\| www.eve-bank.net
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2008.12.01 12:50:00 - [58] Originally by: zacuis fair point well made. but i still miss the old MD We have a chance to continue it here. MD didn't just exist, it was created over time by various people coming together and lambasting the nimrods that deigned to post their inane comments in our forum. Nothing says we cannot just continue that, and also have the opportunity to introduce new blood into the mix. If we're such a great community then surely we have the spirit and perseverance to see it through a rough patch? [WTS] Tech II Component BPO Sets
zacuis Great Big Research	Posted - 2008.12.01 12:58:00 - [59] Edited by: zacuis on 01/12/2008 12:59:04 Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: zacuis fair point well made. but i still miss the old MD We have a chance to continue it here. MD didn't just exist, it was created over time by various people coming together and lambasting the nimrods that deigned to post their inane comments in our forum. Nothing says we cannot just continue that, and also have the opportunity to introduce new blood into the mix. If we're such a great community then surely we have the spirit and perseverance to see it through a rough patch? i hope your right i fear your wrong. time will tell
Cheopis One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.01 13:00:00 - [60] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: zacuis fair point well made. but i still miss the old MD We have a chance to continue it here. MD didn't just exist, it was created over time by various people coming together and lambasting the nimrods that deigned to post their inane comments in our forum. Nothing says we cannot just continue that, and also have the opportunity to introduce new blood into the mix. If we're such a great community then surely we have the spirit and perseverance to see it through a rough patch? If we're such a great community then surely we have the spirit and perseverance to teach the youngsters in one forum and do business in another. There is no lack of persons here that are helping the new people. I do not see that changing, even if an appropriate forum were created for selling shares and bonds. Some of us enjoy teaching, and will maintain a presence here no matter what. There is no lack of persons here that are antagonizing the new people. I DO see that changing to some degree if an appropriate forum were to be created for selling shares and bonds. Some of us have no patience for teaching, and will abandon a noob forum at the first opportunity. From the perspective of both the new pilot who wants to learn about the EVE market and the EVE-Moguls, the creation of a new forum for high finance while maintaining this forum for education is a win-win situation, and keeping everything in one Frankenstein monster forum is lose-lose. There are no players that can possibly benefit from the current mishmash, except the trolls and individuals coming here with the express intent of dealing in bad faith.



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