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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Catherine LeBatas Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.01 13:18:00 - [61] I think there is a difference between generic market discussion relating to market trading and production, and discussions pertaining to the secondary market, more specific to investments, bonds and other financial aspects that are not apparent to the starting players. I fully understand the need of newer and less financially versed players to have a forum to ask questions. At the same time, as an investor, I also understand the frustration of having the forum flooded with non-investment related questions, so you end up spending 2-3 times the amount of time browsing this forum to get to the posts you're really looking for. There is really no logical argument why this is all being lumped into one forum. It is impractical for both groups and thus really doesn't serve anyone. CCP, please split this up into a Trade and Investment forum respectively.
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.01 13:25:00 - [62] Originally by: Ray McCormack The Guardian is the worst broadsheet. And comparing it to The Sun is snobbery. Compare the forum index to a shelf in the newsagents. You glance past The Sun and that bastion of literary excellence The Independent and reach for The Guardian. Why not the same when reading posts? Or should we demand the narrow pages be sold in an entirely different section so we don't have to be affronted by their garish headlines and page threes? The Sun = The Bum (because only bums in white vans read it) The Daily Mail = The Daily Wail (santimonious rubbish) The Telegraph = The Torygraph (too rightwing to be balanced in any view) The BBC = The Red Army (ever since the run-in the cabinet office, any journalist who had teeth in the BBC now works for Al Jazeera, and the BBC is a ultra lefty mouthpiece only highlighting news pertinent to Labour) The Times = Murdoch's mouthpiece (ignored entirely) The Guardian = The Grauniad (always has typos, too populist to worry about anything controversial) The Evening Standard = The Evening Fascist (London-based version of the Daily Wail) The Independent = The Dependent (such a low readership that they don't offend anyone to ensure advertising and never say anything controversial, thus awash with absolutely nothing) The Economist = The e-Communist (severely watered down nonsense since it's ownership by Pearson from the real teeth it used to have when it was independent - I've stopped my sub to it a long while ago) The News of the World = The News of The Tits (only has eyecandy) The Mirror = The Twofaced (doesn't have any credibility) So basically the only news you can get in Britain is either from The Week or Private Eye. For anything semi-serious you can only get a proper view from reading a foreign paper like Le Monde or watching Al Jazeera since the 'proper' BBC hacks are all there. Compare and contrast to MD, using that metaphor, then this gives due justification to go elsewhere. I for one don't MD to be transposed to somewhere SHC or EBANK's forums, but would prefer MD to be fixed instead. Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: zacuis fair point well made. but i still miss the old MD We have a chance to continue it here. MD didn't just exist, it was created over time by various people coming together and lambasting the nimrods that deigned to post their inane comments in our forum. Nothing says we cannot just continue that, and also have the opportunity to introduce new blood into the mix. If we're such a great community then surely we have the spirit and perseverance to see it through a rough patch? We can try... but I fear a lot of the regulars who are thin on patience and available time as it stands will slowly leave. Chairman \| www.eve-bank.net
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.12.01 13:35:00 - [63] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 01/12/2008 13:37:06 Horizontal you pedantic &^()%^&, put the newspapers aside! As I mentioned earlier there's a very good reason for not accepting any MD separation: "This is the place where the new offerings are discussed / validated (and subsequently shares sold) thus your best chance to grab a piece of the pie first hand. Otherwise reselling shares accounts for such a pitiful volume that it's not worth allocating separate forums space for." Any forum separation would only serve as a way to divide community's attention / bypass scrutiny and the need for an audit thus granting a scammer direct access to (inexperienced) buyers." I know for sure I won't bother reading any other sub forum. Black Sun Empire
Aadris	Posted - 2008.12.01 13:42:00 - [64] Honestly who seriously gives that much of a toss if a few people are asking basic questions on an internet spaceships forum every now and then? You are not forced to read or answer them. Get out the house more!
Cheopis One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.01 13:46:00 - [65] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 01/12/2008 13:37:06 Horizontal you pedantic &^()%^&, put the newspapers aside! As I mentioned earlier there's a very good reason for not accepting any MD separation: "This is the place where the new offerings are discussed / validated (and subsequently shares sold) thus your best chance to grab a piece of the pie first hand. Otherwise reselling shares accounts for such a pitiful volume that it's not worth allocating separate forums space for." Any forum separation would only serve as a way to divide community's attention / bypass scrutiny and the need for an audit thus granting a scammer direct access to (inexperienced) buyers." I know for sure I won't bother reading any other sub forum. Actually, according to the forum rules, this is not where we are supposed to buy and sell at: This is for discussing the market, both how it works and to share market tips. If you wish to sell, buy, auction or trade items please use the forums specified for those purposes. Unfortunately there are no proper forums for bonds, since they aren't items. Shares can be traded, but they don't actually exist in game except as a virtual item in a virtual world, and are far more abstract and complex than just buying a ship. So by CCP's own forum rules, we are using this forum incorrectly, but they are letting us do it, apparently, because there is no appropriate place for financial instruments to be sold.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.12.01 13:51:00 - [66] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 01/12/2008 13:55:35 Originally by: Cheopis Actually, according to the forum rules, this is not where we are supposed to buy and sell at: Actually it is in the best interest of the community that we preserve the status quo and luckily the mods understood this very well. May I recommend you some of Horizontal's newspapers? Those are a far better way to waste your time more appropriate for someone of your trolling caliber. Black Sun Empire
Cheopis One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.01 13:56:00 - [67] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 01/12/2008 13:53:02 Originally by: Cheopis Actually, according to the forum rules, this is not where we are supposed to buy and sell at: Actually it is in the best interest of the community that we preserve the status quo and luckily the mods understood this very well. May I recommend you some of Horizontal's newspapers? Those make for a better way to waste your time. Really. If the mods had any interest in preserving the status quo, MD would not have been moved, a new forum section would have been created. I believe they had good intentions, but the current scenario is lose/lose and needs to be addressed by forming an appropriate location for sales of financial instruments.
Kara Mitsui	Posted - 2008.12.01 14:00:00 - [68] If only it were possible to create your own forum, out in the general internet, where the tiny number of people who are interested in the advanced market stuff could hang out and chat with as many restrictions on membership as they like. Wouldn't that be cool?
Kara Mitsui	Posted - 2008.12.01 14:03:00 - [69] Originally by: Mr Horizontal Compare and contrast to MD, using that metaphor, then this gives due justification to go elsewhere. I for one don't MD to be transposed to somewhere SHC or EBANK's forums, but would prefer MD to be fixed instead. ... We can try... but I fear a lot of the regulars who are thin on patience and available time as it stands will slowly leave. You need to take a good hard look at yourself. Your attitude stinks. MD doesn't need much fixing, and you leaving for elsewhere would take care of most of it.
Feronia Gallente Magma Industries	Posted - 2008.12.01 14:13:00 - [70] Only a minority of the players reads the MD forum. Its not like this forum gets flooded with new posts every day. Why split up the small MD community even more ? They will never add a separate Investments forum, it could be mistakenly seen as supported by CCP, while the secondary market is totally player created.

Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2008.12.01 14:26:00 - [71] Originally by: Mr Horizontal The Independent = The Dependent (such a low readership that they don't offend anyone to ensure advertising and never say anything controversial, thus awash with absolutely nothing) Which is why I read them. They're a newspaper, not a mouthpiece. [WTS] Tech II Component BPO Sets
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2008.12.01 14:28:00 - [72] Also, some people in here are getting way too worked up about the semantics of a spaceship forum. [WTS] Tech II Component BPO Sets
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.01 14:39:00 - [73] Originally by: YouGotRipped I know for sure I won't bother reading any other sub forum. That's enough reason alone to go separate ways Chairman \| www.eve-bank.net
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.12.01 14:43:00 - [74] Originally by: Mr Horizontal Originally by: YouGotRipped I know for sure I won't bother reading any other sub forum. That's enough reason alone to go separate ways Ah, so you do read my posts. hahah Black Sun Empire
GPszith Gallente Gypsy Productions	Posted - 2008.12.01 14:54:00 - [75] Edited by: GPszith on 01/12/2008 14:59:25 Originally by: Cheopis If we're such a great community then surely we have the spirit and perseverance to teach the youngsters in one forum and do business in another. Hmm perhaps I have missed the point of the community, but doing people's research for them wasn't one of them. Well researched questions get great answers here imo. That said, no one answers questions that creates competition. Competition is great for the customer but bad for the seller. So why make my own situation worse by helping someone? Frankly no one helped me. I've spent months reading these forums and I'm still just a noob. Edit: For the record, I don't care about the change either way. I simply skip the threads I don't want to read. -------------------------------------------------- -GPszith wtb a sig
CornerStoner	Posted - 2008.12.01 15:26:00 - [76] CCP wont move this forum (there aren't enough of us to whine to warrant a move/nerf). It would be nice if they set restrictions on posting similar to what CAOD has. Not to restrict new players, but to restrict content. CCP jumps on CAOD posts quickly to moderate them yet science and industry posts are allowed here on a regular basis. At any rate...We're wasting our breath/keystrokes. CCP has made it clear that they intend to leave things as they are no matter what we say.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2008.12.01 15:36:00 - [77] If Ebank launches its exchange, will people launch their bond/IPO threads on the EBank forum or here? as a side note: I read (via web) The Sun for football transfer gossip Telegraph for Business news and sports columnists Times for some business analysts FT for business BBC & CNN for global news
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.01 15:47:00 - [78] Originally by: cosmoray If Ebank launches its exchange, will people launch their bond/IPO threads on the EBank forum or here? That's for the community to decide. The stock will require a link to documentation... somewhere. Whether it's on Eve-O or wherever, it doesn't matter. The only important thing is NOTHING must change in the peer review / audit process of the stock pre-launch. Chairman \| www.eve-bank.net
Jacque Custeau Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2008.12.01 15:53:00 - [79] I mostly lurk and don't post here, mainly because I don't invest in IPOs and when I have an isk generating idea, I like to keep it to myself. I don't know if MD will turn into what Science & industry is now, but it would be a shame if I did. On the Science and Industry forum you can flip through several pages without reading anything meaningful. Every week there is someone asking about how to use the same POS array over and over or someone asking the same goddamned question about standings for Hi-Sec POS's! It can drive you mad. You even get people who think that a reaction reduces value instead of adding it because the price per unit of the output is less than the average of the inputs. -------------------
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.12.01 16:08:00 - [80] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 01/12/2008 16:12:25 Originally by: Jacque Custeau I mostly lurk and don't post here, mainly because I don't invest in IPOs and when I have an isk generating idea, I like to keep it to myself. I don't know if MD will turn into what Science & industry is now, but it would be a shame if I did. On the Science and Industry forum you can flip through several pages without reading anything meaningful. Every week there is someone asking about how to use the same POS array over and over or someone asking the same goddamned question about standings for Hi-Sec POS's! It can drive you mad. You even get people who think that a reaction reduces value instead of adding it because the price per unit of the output is less than the average of the inputs. I don't believe MD will get to that point. Science and Industry issues require precise knowledge of how things operate while MD issues are more on the intuitive side. And TBH, I enjoy helping new players and trolls alike. Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Also, the problem isn't with new players coming to ask questions. The problem is with the ****s that come to troll or the other group of ****s that don't feel the need to read the forum description and post accordingly. QFT. Black Sun Empire

Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.12.01 18:04:00 - [81] I don't usually post here, but here are my opinion as to the newb invasion. 1. People are social creatures they are looking for community. This place has a kind of character, and the name seems inviting enough. So people try to hang out. 2. CCP is a terrible at web stuff. Look how long it took them just to update the search function, and even then they just gave up and outsourced it to Google. The item database is a disaster, and hasn't been updated in an age. The portal (if you can call it that) is muddy, and ugly. It is the opposite of the game, a confused jungle, without hierarchy, or focus. Attributes, physics and basic game mechanics are a mystery, and have taken months or years for people to figure out, and when they get posted changes and nerfs make the posts obsolete so you have a lot of trouble knowing which post is correct or what the hell is going on some times. Its not surprising that people ask basic questions in that light. 3. We have lost some vets and a lot of newbs have signed up. Many of them have absolutely no clue. CCP has not done a good job guiding them. Soon CCP is about to sell EvE in a box, imagine the EvE subscriber base doubling overnight, we can gain 250k easily. The current architecture was ok for a much smaller universe of people. It wasn't designed for what it is doing now, much less a huge volume like that. These people will not be the self selected fanatics we have had in the past, they will be WoW players, people who expect to be spoon fed information like they are a baby. These types of forums simply can't handle that. They will break. Anyone who has followed a blog/business that became famous knows what I am talking about, the management/moderation/architecture needs to scale up or the page melts down. 4. CCP has its own problems. If you watch their fan fest videos, by their own admission they have "lost focus" on their "core product" which is EvE. They have basically gotten themselves into a bad situation, with loss of key players and are trying to make up for time when they were screwing around. Now they are grabbing on to each part of the game and are trying to "fix it" without stepping back and looking at the larger picture of what is happening. So what is happening seems to have a severe case of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. You can see the lack of focus on the brand and the overall experience, it is micro-managed on the other end in things like forum tweaks. So they would take this forum, which is something like investment banking, and do things people don't like trying to "fix it", it is being fixed to death. This is classic micromanagement. Some people at CCP need to go read the Sagas again, and remember what epic "is" and "should be". The EvE experience should be epic, seamless and intuitive. Looking at the web page, you would think they sell used cars. 5. They have basically lost touch at the higher levels in their company with what is going on. Take the Orca, if you read the Dev blog on it, they were surprised by the sheer volume of BPO and ships. They don't seem to realize just how starved for content people are, especially in industry, which is one of the reasons ppl come to this forum, they are looking for a way to do things in the game. Personally, I think a forum tweak is a temporary fix at best. In the end, these problems will manifest themselves no matter what, it is just a matter of time and degree. Asking for a forum move may help, but it is not a solution. As for CCP calling people "elitist". Its true, this is the "end game" of the EvE economy. This is the realm of Titans, in some cases the people who literally build them. So yes, this space is filled with elitists, as it should be. The problem there is betrayed by their own words, and is an indication that CCP no longer has an "end game" for industry. They see it as the servant of pew pew, and not an "end" in its own right. That makes me a sad carebear. Back on Retainer. I am cheap but not easy.
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2008.12.01 18:29:00 - [82] Originally by: Kara Mitsui Originally by: Mr Horizontal Compare and contrast to MD, using that metaphor, then this gives due justification to go elsewhere. I for one don't MD to be transposed to somewhere SHC or EBANK's forums, but would prefer MD to be fixed instead. ... We can try... but I fear a lot of the regulars who are thin on patience and available time as it stands will slowly leave. You need to take a good hard look at yourself. Your attitude stinks. MD doesn't need much fixing, and you leaving for elsewhere would take care of most of it. Oh boy, an alt's first post on MD and guess what? He's insulting and dismissing the Chairman of EBANK like he's nobody.... If this is to remain a place of business and meaningful discussion the mods are at least going to have ban alts and since alts are occasionally necessary to conduct business we'll need someone familiar with MD to decide what alts actually get axed....or you could all of this in one quick and easy act, move it back.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2008.12.01 18:40:00 - [83] There are some good points and bad points made here. So the go forward. 1. MD ain't moving 2. There will be more noob questions, but on the current first page of the MD forum there are 10 IPO/Bond threads out of 24 posts, 5 market discussions (including tools), 2 toital noob questions and 4 threads about MD position. It is not all bad 3. There is now by default more potential investors for these lovely IPO's/bonds that everyone likes to launch. People will learn with time. Who will be the big winners: 1. EBank & DBank. More people will get exposure to these bank products and potential exchange and more people will invest. 2. Cost of capital will go down 3. SCAM attempts will go up. We must maintain our vigilence and demand proper checks and critiques 4. General business accumen of new players will go up. Don't fight the tidal wave, learn to ride it!
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2008.12.01 18:43:00 - [84] Originally by: Kwint Sommer EBANK <insert troll> Originally by: Kwint Sommer If this is to remain a place of business and meaningful discussion the mods are at least going to have ban alts I disagree completely. CCP took that decision because CAOD was overrun by trolls and men without balls. But what makes that the correct decision? EMF1 Hauler1 is an alt, that bank guy is an alt, so are a fair few people here. They all have valid contributions. But are we not able to govern ourselves with sticky requests (demands), one-time rebuttals and subsequent ignorances? We have options people. [WTS] Tech II Component BPO Sets
Feryal Sky	Posted - 2008.12.01 19:11:00 - [85] CCP will never ban alt posts here simply because unlike CAOD, MD is designed to function as a beacon for new players, just like Science & Industry for that matter. I bet you'll never guess whose alt I am though.^^
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.12.01 21:03:00 - [86] Originally by: Feryal Sky I bet you'll never guess whose alt I am though.^^ Wow, you're right. I didn't even try to guess. Moving on, this thread is a bit tiresome. The mods aren't going to change the forum around just now, Maybe after a few months/years they'll do it. Second, I'm all for an elite forum where elites do elite things like IPO and all that. I can give the billion isk secret handshake. Would be nice if that forum were somewhere on Eve forums, but it'd be good to untangle the IPOs from general market discussion.
Ricdics Tleilex Developments	Posted - 2008.12.01 22:39:00 - [87] Can't we all just get along?
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.12.01 23:42:00 - [88] Originally by: Ricdics Can't we all just get along? No But I would be willing to under go a API check if Ebank wished to host a IPO forum, so long as Ebank held onto it for security reasons and didn't pass it out for marketing purposes.
Cheopis One Stop Mining Shop	Posted - 2008.12.02 00:51:00 - [89] Originally by: cosmoray There are some good points and bad points made here. So the go forward. 1. MD ain't moving It should not. An appropriate forum should be created for many of the reasons mantioned by myself and others above Originally by: cosmoray 2. There will be more noob questions, but on the current first page of the MD forum there are 10 IPO/Bond threads out of 24 posts, 5 market discussions (including tools), 2 toital noob questions and 4 threads about MD position. It is not all bad MD in it's prior location worked quite well as part of the EVE economy. More exposure is great, but dropping the 13 year old with a lawn mowing business into a federal reserve meeting is insane, and is a lose lose situation no matter how it is looked at, as mentioned above. Originally by: cosmoray 3. There is now by default more potential investors for these lovely IPO's/bonds that everyone likes to launch. People will learn with time. Which people are these that you are talking about? The ones with almost no money asking questions about how the EVE market works? Those people almost never have enough isk for anything other than getting involved in the most insignificant offerings, if then. As for people learning over time... Have you SEEN the crap in the S & I forum? Who will be the big winners: 1. EBank & DBank. More people will get exposure to these bank products and potential exchange and more people will invest. Everyone is automatically a loser in a situation where the best you can hope for is the worst of both worlds. Putting the Wall Street trading floor in a Kindergarden classroom is idiocy at best, intentional harm at worst. Originally by: cosmoray 2. Cost of capital will go down Err, no, it will not, because young players do not have significant money. Costs will probably actually go up, as the people that used to come here for measured, indepth discussion will slowly wander off into more appropriately moderated places, where incidentally, CCP may not have any awareness of their plans or actions. Originally by: cosmoray 3. SCAM attempts will go up. We must maintain our vigilence and demand proper checks and critiques Other than the fact that it is against the stated forum rules, this is why high finance transactions should not be allowed to be here. There will be too much predatory action. against the noobs Originally by: cosmoray 4. General business accumen of new players will go up. Don't fight the tidal wave, learn to ride it! General business acumen of new players will go up just fine if there is both a Q & A forum, and a proper high finance transactions forum. The absolute worst thing is that the game will be sold in stores soon, which means there are probably going to be lots of noobs with no clue. How many of them are going to hear rave reviews about the economy in EVE, decide to try it out, and see the horrible effects of mixing a high finance transactions forum and a general knowledge forum? I'm sorry, but all arguments that do not point directly towards a new forum for market transactions are fail.
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2008.12.02 00:52:00 - [90] It isn't a bad idea. We will likely have a lot of IPO related discussion on our forums anyway when the stock exchange goes live and would be nice to have one specific location to go to for all the data. If people want this we can easily organise a sub forum but the API check thing may be difficult (easy to manually do, not so much automatically) Horizontal (our head coder) is reading this thread so I am sure he will have something to say from a developmental leveal



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