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Deimost - I must be missing something

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fkingfurious	Posted - 2008.12.01 08:13:00 - [1] So I'm new to HAC's, and have ended up with the skills to fly Minmatar or Gallente. I'm not too keen on the Vaga after the speed nerfs (not sure if i would have liked it before the nerf tbh) and the Muninn seems overwhelmingly meh. My Drone skills arent great either so I'm left looking at the Deimos. Thing is, no matter what I do with it it seems to be outclassed by my Brutix. Here are the fits I've been looking at: Deimos- 1600 5x Heavy Electron II, 1x Small Neut 10MN MWD II, Webber II, WD II 1600mmRT, Exp II, DCU II, EANM II, 2x MFS II 2x Metastasis Adjusters 450 DPS before drones, pretty good tracking, 45K EHP Deimos- Neutron Gank 5x Heavy Neutron II 10MN MWD II, Fleeting web (cpu), WD II 800 RT, DCU II, Exp II, 3x MFS II ACR, Metastasis 589 DPS without drones but only 28K EHP :( It just seems that there is no situation ever where the correct setup for this ship isn't in fact a Brutix. The Falloff bonus may as well not be there cos unless you have managed to manouvre yourself point blank you're gonna be getting outgunned by pretty much everything (as blasters should be). Maybe change it to a tracking bonus? Anyways, have I missed the point or does this ship simply suck ass?
Burn Mac Minmatar The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.12.01 08:29:00 - [2] Its called Die Most for a reason. But hmm against a brutix it has some advantages hmm agility?
nakKEDK Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.01 09:16:00 - [3] or fly a zealot with 500% more range. sorry i fking hate gallente.. amarr cruiser 4 finished soon ;P k
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.01 09:21:00 - [4] You aren't missing anything, the Deimos just sucks that much. The whole point of flying a HAC over a BC/BB is supposed to be their speed and range advantage, but both of them are meaningless on a ship that has no choice but to get into a point-blank-range slugging match. -----------
Murkon Salesgirl Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.01 09:31:00 - [5] Other HACs perform roles that BCs can't fill. The problem with the Deimos is that it's role can be filled easily by the Brutix and in essence, the Mega. It's just a point blank blaster boat, nothing fancy. It's not significantly more agile than the brutix, and it actually has less firepower. It's also got 3 mids.. on a blaster boat that's just sinful. Really, if the zealot didn't have its range bonus, everyone would be using the Harbinger instead. I think the Deimos needs something to give it an edge, maybe a 10% tracking bonus instead of the obsolete MWD bonus and remove 6th hi slot > give it the 4th mid (blaster boats really need a cap booster). Bah, where are the devs when you need them. This ship is in dire need of a boost for ages.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.12.01 09:31:00 - [6] Maybe it should do more damage or something.. oh wai... Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.12.01 09:53:00 - [7] Edited by: NeoTheo on 01/12/2008 09:55:34 actually in todays environment its dual webs needed not the cap injector, what with the way t2 MWD's dont really cripple your cap anymore and the bonus from a diemost, cap is less of a issue than it ever was. so yes high to a mid would be nice, but not for the reasons people are stating. but yes in general a diemost is not as good as the brutix, but due to the mwd bonus you can be a little lazyer with your modules ;) - DAMT - If you dont know, well, you dont know!
techzer0 IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.12.01 09:59:00 - [8] Originally by: fkingfurious Deimos- Neutron Gank 5x Heavy Neutron II 10MN MWD II, Fleeting web (cpu), WD II 800 RT, DCU II, Exp II, 3x MFS II ACR, Metastasis 589 DPS without drones but only 28K EHP :( I can do 460 DPS with Void in a thorax with 3x MFS II... and that is with gal cruiser 4 Scrap the deimos unless you plan on using it to rat Guristas space in 0.0... it works great there! ------------ Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2008.12.01 11:56:00 - [9] Originally by: Murkon Salesgirl remove 6th hi slot > give it the 4th mid (blaster boats really need a cap booster). That part was proposed and got vetoed by the community, which just proves blaster pilots are mostly good at shooting themselves in the foot :)
fkingfurious	Posted - 2008.12.01 12:08:00 - [10] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Murkon Salesgirl remove 6th hi slot > give it the 4th mid (blaster boats really need a cap booster). That part was proposed and got vetoed by the community, which just proves blaster pilots are mostly good at shooting themselves in the foot :) If memory serves what actually happened was that the Deimos got a LOW swapped to a Mid, and had it's MWD bonus (i think) changed to a 7.5% rep amount bonus. It was tested on sisi, it was awful, the community said it was awful, it never got implemented. This happened at the same time the Ferox/Moa/Eagle/Zealot all got an extra turret. The high going to a mid has never happened.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2008.12.01 12:50:00 - [11] Could be, I was away from the game myself, and to be honest patch notes all tend to blur together. The problem however is not just the slots not being the way people think they should be, its the twofold problem of role and execution. You've all sketched it out above me, but just to formalise: Its exactly the same role as the T1 blaster boats. Its also pretty bad at it, for the isk/sp investment. We already have a number of blaster boats which do high damage, but only at knife-fight range. As its been pointed out above, the advantage of the zealot over the harbinger is that you can snipe with beams or pseudo-snipe with pulses. The situation is similar with the vagabond, in that you can choose to stay outside web range, and control range at leisure. The deimos does a half-hearted, badly-executed attempt to be a sturdy blaster cruiser which can dictate range, except: The falloff bonus doesn't really put you outside web range with any sort of damage unless you use neutrons. Even if you do, you cant fit neutrons without having a ship with the EHP of a plated thorax at orders of magnitude greater cost, while doing "stroking my enemy softly with a feather" damage. Any capacitor advantage is denied by not being able to fit an injector, which transforms the extra capacitor in an increasingly immaterial - thanks to hp boost and tracking/drone nerfs - handful of seconds before your cap dies. The only way to have longer-living cap is to use nos, which removes any chance at the grid for proper guns + tank, looping us back to the top of the list. Even if you could work outside web range, you lack the speed/agility to control range in any way whatsoever unless you web your enemy. I'm hardly spelling out the secrets of the universe here, its all fairly obvious just by looking at the ship. Giving it a viable role, now that's a bit harder. Especially if working within the bounds of what CCP is likely to accept - specifically, a blaster-boat that sits outside web range, does good damage from there AND tanks well is unlikely to get very far, so the choices we have are: A good tank. Superior range, and the ability to control it. Good damage. Choose 2 out of 3, design a deimos that can do them at the same time, and push that idea.
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis	Posted - 2008.12.01 13:18:00 - [12] The Deimos does have a falloff bonus, so it can get somewhat respectable (for blasters) range. Now that warp scramblers disable MWD, the extra speed can help you close the distance before your MWD shuts off. The Brutix doesn't have a 85% base Kinetic resist either. It is an underwhelming ship, but there are a few things that make it better than a Brutix. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Dihania Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.12.01 13:30:00 - [13] Originally by: Artemis Rose there are a few things that make it better than a Brutix. No, not really. You can get either tank or gank out of it. If you with the brutix on gank, you can outclass it. If you go with Brutix on tank, you can be just as good too. As a mix of things, you can have a good tank on a brutix and respectable damage. And honestly, I do not feel the Deimos much more agile than the Brutix. And if you compare prices and insurance, the Deimos is a worthless ship. [hrhr] Sniggwaffe is recruiting. Visit channel "join sniggwaffe" in game.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.12.01 14:12:00 - [14] Edited by: The Djego on 01/12/2008 14:14:39 Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Murkon Salesgirl remove 6th hi slot > give it the 4th mid (blaster boats really need a cap booster). That part was proposed and got vetoed by the community, which just proves blaster pilots are mostly good at shooting themselves in the foot :) Actual not, CCPs solution was to switch the 6. LOW Slot to a Med Slot and change the MWD Bonus with a Rep Bonus. After fitting Cap Booster, Reppers, and smaller Blasters(since you have to take the Powergrid for the aditional Modules from somewhere) any Blaster Pilote will admit that the ship didn¦t realy this what a Blaster Ship should do, punching thrue, it was a close range Hac with reduced DPS and a better Tank(what allready was possible to realize on the Ishtar). The ship is faster, got more range and more is agile than a Brutix , but after you enter your common fighting Range(Web Range) most off this wasn¦t very big advantages. Actualy this advantages got a bigger boost, since in QR with the 60% Web it is fare harder to maintain range(what is 2-5km for Medium Blasters), but still only because other Blaster Ships suffer more with the 60% Web not because the Deimos got any kind of Boost. The bigger speed and Agility helps to catch Targets, but then again much more Targets won¦t comit to a fight against a Deimos than to a fight against a Thorax(for solo) wich leaves at least for me the Thorax as better general choice. The ship simply would need more DPS to get realy effective(making a real diffrence, since 90% of the fights a Thorax would loose, a Deimos will loose aswell). ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.12.01 15:10:00 - [15] BOOST BLASTERS!!!!! muwhahahahhaha
VoiceInTheDesert Gallente Diplomatic Disruption	Posted - 2008.12.01 17:04:00 - [16] I have said this many times on this forum, but I'll say it again.... Brutix > Deimos in 95% of situations. Plus, you can buy and fit two Bruts for every Deimos and when the Bruts blow up, you get 60% of your invetment back. Deimos you lose it all on an overpriced cruiser.
Raimo Gallente Wrath of Fenris	Posted - 2008.12.01 18:36:00 - [17] It's true that atm the Deimos is in need of a 4th mid and maybe some other help, but in certain roles it still owns as is. That role being the pure DPS of a well- rounded small gang. The 3 mids gimps it but if you're flying with a minnie recon or two you can skip webs... For me, Deimos does what I want from a small gang med blaster platform so much better than a Brutix. And I fit my Deimoses for nearly all gank, relying on its agility and small sig. It shines especially as a BS killer unless you get neuted to death. But after QR I have not tried soloing in it... ---
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.12.01 18:51:00 - [18] And ironically, the Taranis is an absolute MONSTER as a blaster ship. Didn't translate well to HAC though. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.01 19:01:00 - [19] Originally by: Stuart Price And ironically, the Taranis is an absolute MONSTER as a blaster ship. Didn't translate well to HAC though. What if Diemost suddenly got significantly improved agility, slightly lower mass and a slight base speed increase? It still wouldn't be comparatively as good as a Taranis. As soon as you hit cruiser size and sig radius you lose the survivability of say a frigate or interceptor. So, what if the Deimos had a 5% dmg bonus and a 7.5% damage bonus. If its a glass cannon then at least make it capable of more dps than a Brutix; and perhaps significantly more? There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Vanthropy Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.01 19:56:00 - [20] i just don't comprehend the whine anymore. Far more ppl use the deimos than you all assume. It just doesn't suck. It can kite against any ship it's up against. With the patch it got a huge boost, just as kiting got a huge boost. The Deimos is now fast enough to catch all of those ships that used to outrange it and kill it. why are ppl still not fitting a warp scrambler? that's quite rediculous unless ALL YOU DO IS BLOB PPL. in which case, you would never ever experience the situations where the Deimos shines... like.. small gang/solo (yes omg) pvp "SPEED + GANK = SPANK... Spank that ***** up"
Ort Lofthus Wildlands Heavy Technologies FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.12.01 20:28:00 - [21] What if the MWD cap bonus was changed to a significant (10%/level) AB speed bonus and the falloff bonus was changed to a tracking bonus. Turns the deimos into a superior knife fighter, as it can control transversal and tracks well at that higher transversal.
Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2008.12.01 21:26:00 - [22] The reason that HACs like the Zealot, Eagle, and Cerb are so popular is that you can get performance out of them that is simply not possible to get out of the corresponding battlecruiser. This performance, combined with their better mobility and hogh resists, makes them very appealing in spite of their higher pricetags and financial risk. Other HACs, like the Muninn and Deimos for example, are still very good at what they do but there are other far less expensive and risky options available that will get the job done just as well. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
VoiceInTheDesert Gallente Diplomatic Disruption	Posted - 2008.12.01 23:06:00 - [23] Originally by: Vanthropy i just don't comprehend the whine anymore. Far more ppl use the deimos than you all assume. It just doesn't suck. It can kite against any ship it's up against. With the patch it got a huge boost, just as kiting got a huge boost. The Deimos is now fast enough to catch all of those ships that used to outrange it and kill it. why are ppl still not fitting a warp scrambler? that's quite rediculous unless ALL YOU DO IS BLOB PPL. in which case, you would never ever experience the situations where the Deimos shines... like.. small gang/solo (yes omg) pvp It might be able to close range, but it's still slower than the other HACs and all Recons I'm aware of. The range is so fickle that even a change of 1k (which is easy to achieve if the enemy pilot has a brain even if that pilot is flying a slower ship) greatly reduces your DPS and costs you precious seconds while your not-tank melts under their guns. On the note of speed as defense, I offer this This is the situation needed for Deimos to speed tank damage even with the QR speed/sig bonus boost. With an AB -Target has to be a BS with no nuets -Deimos must close range without dying -Deimos must be able to keep less than 1.5ish km from the BS or the BS will hit it anyway even with a post-patch web With MWD -Target still must be a BS with no nuets -Target must have no scram fitted -Deimos must close range without dying (hard to do because MWD amplies your sig so much) -Deimos must keep range under 1.5km or it will run the risk of getting out of range of it's own weapons and into the range of the target Suffice to say, the Deimos advantage of speed and agility is really kinda useless. It only works in very specific circumstances whereas a Brut will work better in nearly every other situation and cost 1/4 as much (after insurance)
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.01 23:31:00 - [24] Edited by: Rajere on 01/12/2008 23:33:31 The problem with flying it like an assault frigate post QR is partly due to Medium NOS having a 6 second cycle rather than 3, so your defense vs neuting is less able to recover. Fittign a small NOS instead of medium wouldn't work either, considering your guns take more cap to fire than frigate blasters. The larger issue is the same problem it's always had, 3 mids. You'll need a long range point or mwd to tackle anything you can beat with it anyway, as ab+9km scram = battleships are able to align and warp out before you can tackle them. You need the 9km scram for shutting off MWD as well, plus a web is almost as important for controlling range/transversal. So while an AB+Scram+Web deimos works on paper, you'll never be able tackle anything to actually find out. Only way you can tackle something is if they're afk or think (or rather they know) that they can beat you, so you aren't really learning much. -------------------------- NOTR
suza Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.01 23:42:00 - [25] It is agreed that the diemos is meant to be a fast moving blasterboat. The fact is that with the ability of any ship with a scram to turn your mwd off negates this. Therefore either the mwd part needs to be reversed and the ships agility to be returned or the role of the ship changed. It really is that simple, a stabber can keep you at 19km all day and hit big holes using auto's and barrage ammo. So maybe it time to re-look at the deimos and give it a new role, new launch and a chance to be a great ship again - Fly Hard, Fly fast for tomorrow is another day for Killing!
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.12.02 00:57:00 - [26] What if one of the bonuses would be changed to a pretty hefty bonus to acceleration? That would alleviate some of the problems associated with using blasters in a gang. Oh and -1 high, +1 mid.
Vanessa Vasquez KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.02 01:35:00 - [27] The Problem is not the Deimos, it's the optimal of those medium blasters. Deimos is a gank ship, able to inflict heavy damage when getting closer than 1.5km. Buff the optimal, give it a 4th mid for a second web/or scrambler and this ship can fullfil it's designed role.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.12.02 01:59:00 - [28] Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 02/12/2008 02:00:03 Originally by: suza It is agreed that the diemos is meant to be a fast moving blasterboat. The fact is that with the ability of any ship with a scram to turn your mwd off negates this. Therefore either the mwd part needs to be reversed and the ships agility to be returned or the role of the ship changed. Highlighted for insight. Somehow, the Deimos has to be able to use its MWD even under unfavorable circumstances. This can only be achieved either by letting it be the only ship that can keep an MWD running even under Scrammer, or by giving it both an optimal and a falloff bonus to blasters and to tweak blasters so that they gain appropriate range. In this case, just enough range that you can do significant enough damage precisely outside of normal web/scram range for it to be a good ship. I'd be voting for the former, of course, because it is far less problematic. I think that an increase in the base velocity of the ship might be appropriate as well. Furthermore, the Deimos has no use for a 6th high, and it is not in line with other Gallente ships that tend to have few highslots. It should be removed, and a mid added.
Poba The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.12.02 03:18:00 - [29] both gal HACs suffer from the problem that the roles they fill are better filled by other t1 gal ships domi can out perform ishtar for much cheaper and brutix can outperform diemos for less as well. both gal HACs need to have their "roles" looked at and need to be fixed ~Welcome to the internet, where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents~
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.02 04:05:00 - [30] Originally by: Poba both gal HACs suffer from the problem that the roles they fill are better filled by other t1 gal ships domi can out perform ishtar for much cheaper and brutix can outperform diemos for less as well. both gal HACs need to have their "roles" looked at and need to be fixed ishtar is fine it could just do with a little more cpu/pg. Deimos as everyone else has so eloquently put, should switch the un*****ble 6th high to a mid and maybe a little pg to fit a booster. If that happens then I think it would be safe to do away with the MWD bonus and get the AB speed bonus (i likes it) or perhaps a tracking bonus or something that could be viewed as usefull (perhaps more raw armor hp or something like that?) Doesn't sound too crazy too me. Still keeps it in its niche of in your face blaster hac but it atleast allows it to outclass the brutix at it. Or (it pains me to put it out there) we could just assume the ishtar is supposed to be the gank HAC and redo the deimos to be something just more snipery in general. I mean its got that camo paint, we could just call it a gilly suit and give it some cool long range pew pew and be done with it

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