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Blackops: Worth it?

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Bobba Blue	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:40:00 - [1] Hello all, I have heard bad things about the black ops ship and i have been training up to fly one. Was just wondering what are there limitations and why are they so bad? I was goign to fly the Amarr one with pride :)
Ziena Amani	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:46:00 - [2] In before Waxau?
ee21k	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:47:00 - [3] never flown on myslef but the way i hear it people think they are too expensive and are always targetted first in a fight? personally i think people were just diasppointed they didnt get a battleship class HAC and are being **y about it, but thats just me... ...... Bring along the other shoe. Boosh!**
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:54:00 - [4] Originally by: ee21k never flown on myslef but the way i hear it people think they are too expensive and are always targetted first in a fight? personally i think people were just diasppointed they didnt get a battleship class HAC and are being ****y about it, but thats just me... Well, they can't really do their intended role all that well. And it more of a BS class recon, not HAC ;)
Bobba Blue	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:57:00 - [5] Ahh ok thanks, plus i just had a quick scan of the forums and found them already answered (stupid me) I think i will carry on the training as i am only 4 days from cyno theory 5 I hope they get buffed soon :)
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2008.12.08 15:48:00 - [6] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: ee21k never flown on myslef but the way i hear it people think they are too expensive and are always targetted first in a fight? personally i think people were just diasppointed they didnt get a battleship class HAC and are being ****y about it, but thats just me... Well, they can't really do their intended role all that well. And it more of a BS class recon, not HAC ;) not even like recons tbh, just T1 BS with worse stats and role bonuses that are woefully inadequate.
Dr Caligo	Posted - 2008.12.08 15:54:00 - [7] Nope not worth it really at the moment unless you just want to have it for the neato factor.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.08 15:57:00 - [8] Consider carefully what they're intended for. These are not ships of the line. If you take one into a fleet battle next to their T1 counterparts, as the old saying goes, "you're doing it wrong". I don't think these things will come into their own, because I don't see the ships they were really intended as combat support for, the stealth bombers, ever reaching their full potential. You should be able to use these battleships to bridge in a massive gank fleet of bombers to catch a target group completely flatfooted. The problem here is that when was the last time you saw a major fleet full of stealth ships try a gank op? I can think of one, and it failed pretty epically. Right now, the best use I can think of for a Black Ops is stealth jumping Blockade Runners with ultravaluable cargos around in relative secrecy. They were just never intended to be part of a standard fleet, they were supposed to lead "shock" fleets that would hit hard and fade before organized resistance showed up. Tactics of that sort have just never materialized that way in practice. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Waxau Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.12.08 17:06:00 - [9] You could also use one of the several black ops threads that are currently circulating the front page.
Yoko Lee Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.08 17:26:00 - [10] Black ops not just for Blockade Runners, and no just for 0.0, i use it for low and secure, war target or gate camp, but too expensive to lose (500M redeemer just for cloack and not enough scan resolution 175 scan reso with 1 sensor booster II). Eve is not just a 0.0 game dont forget that ccp, thanks.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.12.08 17:57:00 - [11] They have a low scan resoluion - their cloak recalibration bonus almost might as well not be - even a battleship will be gone before you have locked, unless you have a friend tackling. Their jump range is so low they cannot cross region, or sometimes constellation boundaries. Their fuel use is prohibitive. The ships themselves aren't particularly resilient, and aren't particularly good on firepower/tank. Are they worthless? Well, no. But you'll have to think very carefully about how you're going to use it in such a way as it's a better choice than a tech 1 BS. And that's even before you start considering relative pricetag. -- 249km locking?
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.08 18:53:00 - [12] Black ops are the biggist load of crap I have seen in this game. I use them as glorified jumpdrive haulers. They never were designed with real world pvp in mind. They need to be sc****d and remade. -- Billion Isk Mission
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.12.08 19:32:00 - [13] Originally by: Lord WarATron Black ops are the biggist load of crap I have seen in this game. I use them as glorified jumpdrive haulers. They never were designed with real world pvp in mind. They need to be sc****d and remade. I love mine. It looks pretty. But seriously, I think the Widow could actually work, if it becomes a bit closer to a Scorpion + Raven put together. Y'know, boost all it's stats accordingly, and end up with a Raven with 1 less low, 2 extra mids, and the bonuses of both ships. You'd have a capable ECM and cruise at extreme range platform (about on a par with 3 stealth bombers and a Falcon). Or a close range gank + (ECM \| TANK) ship, but as we all know close range with a 500mil hull and no tank is a good way to lose one. And it'd be a good ship, but not really the 'alpha class' that I think CCP were worried would happen. As it is, you need the skills for a carrier, just about. And the pricetag, without the insurance. Is it really so unreasonable that it be able to compete with a Carrier for awesomeness? -- 249km locking?
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.08 19:57:00 - [14] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Lord WarATron Black ops are the biggist load of crap I have seen in this game. I use them as glorified jumpdrive haulers. They never were designed with real world pvp in mind. They need to be sc**d and remade. I love mine. It looks pretty. But seriously, I think the Widow could actually work, if it becomes a bit closer to a Scorpion + Raven put together. Y'know, boost all it's stats accordingly, and end up with a Raven with 1 less low, 2 extra mids, and the bonuses of both ships. You'd have a capable ECM and cruise at extreme range platform (about on a par with 3 stealth bombers and a Falcon). Or a close range gank + (ECM \| TANK) ship, but as we all know close range with a 500mil hull and no tank is a good way to lose one. And it'd be a good ship, but not really the 'alpha class' that I think CCP were worried would happen. As it is, you need the skills for a carrier, just about. And the pricetag, without the insurance. Is it really so unreasonable that it be able to compete with a Carrier for awesomeness? Increasing its jump range with lower fuel costs, Covops cloak usage, no loss of scan resolution when uncloaked, no recalibration timer, and the ability to fit command links. Leave tackling to the Covops frigates (give them something to do other than scout), the primary alpha damage output to the Stealth Bombers and Combat Recons, and use the Black Ops in a Covert Command role. Balance it out by requiring it to be uncloaked to get the Command Link bonuses, and maybe you've got something. It may not end up very useful to major 0.0 alliances, but pirates and low sec raiders would have a LOT of fun with it. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.**
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.08 20:38:00 - [15] The oh so promised fuel bay and the elimination of the sigres penalty could go a loooong way to making this ship class playable. Other things like the afforementioned gang links and all that jig aren't necessary as you begin to ask for too much utility from a single ship. Boink!
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.08 21:10:00 - [16] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 08/12/2008 21:11:28 Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Lord WarATron Black ops are the biggist load of crap I have seen in this game. I use them as glorified jumpdrive haulers. They never were designed with real world pvp in mind. They need to be sc****d and remade. I love mine. It looks pretty. But seriously, I think the Widow could actually work, if it becomes a bit closer to a Scorpion + Raven put together. Y'know, boost all it's stats accordingly, and end up with a Raven with 1 less low, 2 extra mids, and the bonuses of both ships. You'd have a capable ECM and cruise at extreme range platform (about on a par with 3 stealth bombers and a Falcon). Or a close range gank + (ECM \| TANK) ship, but as we all know close range with a 500mil hull and no tank is a good way to lose one. And it'd be a good ship, but not really the 'alpha class' that I think CCP were worried would happen. As it is, you need the skills for a carrier, just about. And the pricetag, without the insurance. Is it really so unreasonable that it be able to compete with a Carrier for awesomeness? The issue with black ops is that it looks like its been designed by people on paper. If I want to do ECm, I fly a falcon. If I want to do fleets, I fly a Navy Apoc. If I want to shoot pos, I fly a Dread. If I want to haul I use a DST/Blockade Runner. If I want to act as the "aura buffer", I use a command Ship. If I want to tackle, i fly a Intercepter. If I want to bubble, I fly a Dictor or HIC. If I want to mine, I use a Barge. If I want to NPC, I use a Maurader. If I want to do gang stuff or Support stuff, I use HAC/BC etc etc. If I want to spy + Probe, I use Cov Ops. If I want to act like a ninja and jump targets, I use force recon. etc etc etc Current Blackops design is baised on a style of play that does not exist. Want to ecm in a widow? Well, use a Falcon - its better and can warp cloaked. If you want Tank + Damage then use a T1 BS. Calling a Widow a ECM + Tank ship makes no sense. Either your tank is ECM or its conventional tank + Gank. The Entire black ops line needs to be taken back to the drawing board and compleatly remade. The Widow is a one legged footballer who can kick the ball, but that does not mean that he has a place in the match. -- Billion Isk Mission
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.09 13:48:00 - [17] Edited by: Rajere on 09/12/2008 13:50:33 Quote: I think i will carry on the training as i am only 4 days from cyno theory 5 The blackops pilot does not need cyno 5, in fact it's rather detrimental to have cyno 5 on the blackops pilot. I hope you mean your alt is 4 days from cyno 5, otherwise you are doing it wrong. Quote: They were just never intended to be part of a standard fleet, they were supposed to lead "shock" fleets that would hit hard and fade before organized resistance showed up. Tactics of that sort have just never materialized that way in practice. This is the only bit of truth posted in this thread so far, except for the last line, which is false. You've never figured out the tactics sure, doesn't mean other people haven't. -------------------------- NOTR
Kildan Caldari Heimatar Exploration	Posted - 2008.12.09 15:42:00 - [18] I don't think there's much wrong with black ops themselves now. Locking time is appalling but you should have recons with you to tackle opponents. Lack of fuel bay and cost of bridging is laughable but you can have a blockade runner with you to solve that. Only real problem is not being able to light covert cynos in cyno-jammed systems, which are pretty much everywhere in 0.0 now.
Waxau Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.12.09 16:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Kildan I don't think there's much wrong with black ops themselves now. Locking time is appalling but you should have recons with you to tackle opponents. Lack of fuel bay and cost of bridging is laughable but you can have a blockade runner with you to solve that. Only real problem is not being able to light covert cynos in cyno-jammed systems, which are pretty much everywhere in 0.0 now. Id like to consider myself somewhat open to other peoples opinions...but lol! Locking time has everything to do with it, not just tackling. The Widow for example...an ECM boat. What use is ECM, if the target is already dead when you lock him? He might have already popped one of your friends, or if hes ECM fitted himself, jammed your buddies. Thus, ECM is useless. Or any DPS of the ship itself in most scenarios. Recons deal a decent amount of damage, and in a 'gank gang' scenario, which is what these ships would be used for (stealth gatecamp etc), a ship isnt going to survive long enough to have the Black Ops have any real role. Blockade runner doesnt solve anything. All it means is that for more than a one way ticket, you now need to have a hauler alt follow you around constantly. Nothing more. And the whole 'covert cyno' crap...I flew my widow in lowsec...i never had the slightest concern with cyno jammed systems, as you can probably guess. So pray tell, how am i going to use this ship?
Wild Rho Amarr Sniggerdly	Posted - 2008.12.09 16:36:00 - [20] The main things I'd like to see with a black ops BS would be... - A much longer jump range. - The ability to carry out a shorter range jump that does not require a cyno field (the target ship could jump directly to the sun of the target system - designated by the autopilot). - The often mentioned fuel bay.
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.12.09 18:08:00 - [21] Edited by: NeoTheo on 09/12/2008 18:08:48 the sin does not totally suc imo, rest of them are a bit meh. Originally by: Ziena Amani In before Waxau? damit! ;) - DAMT - If you dont know, well, you dont know!
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.09 23:17:00 - [22] Originally by: Kildan I don't think there's much wrong with black ops themselves now. Indeed. They are excellent Jumpdrive haulers. -- Billion Isk Mission
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.10 00:40:00 - [23] To fix them, CCP must give them at least some useful roles, which these ships lack now. Anything they can do other ships can do better. Carriers, for about the same price, can transport in their bays the ships it is meant to jump portal in. T1 battleships can inflict more damage, are cheaper and usually superior in every combat aspect. As the game works now there is no motive whatsover to use a Black ops ship instead of other ships, no matter what you want to do. One possible solution would be to give them a scan probe time bonus and make them into a deep exploration vessel. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
White Ronin Gallente Blueprint Haus	Posted - 2008.12.10 01:16:00 - [24] Edited by: White Ronin on 10/12/2008 01:16:21 Originally by: Etho Demerzel One possible solution would be to give them a scan probe time bonus and make them into a deep exploration vessel. My dream. But for more then a half billion isk they would need to have some substantial bonuses to exploration in addition to a scan time bonus. --------------------------------------------- "There have always been ghosts in the machine . . . random segments of code that have grouped together to form unexpected protocols. "
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol Doctrine.	Posted - 2008.12.10 01:42:00 - [25] Errr... let's not turn the only tech 2 battleship currently ingame that was INITIALLY CREATED for PVP purposes into a carebear ship. Granted, I have actually used my Sin for exploration already, and would love to see it have the ability to use a Bonused Sisters Scan Probe Launcher, I really would rather it have some good PVP abilities beyond agility (which is actually a nice bonus when you abuse it). Though, a deep space exploration battleship WOULD be bad-ass. :) www.siigarikitawa.com ò www.quafeultra.com
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.10 12:40:00 - [26] use my redeemer purely for pvp, then again i'm not as fail as the posters in this thread who can't figure out the ships role. -------------------------- NOTR
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.10 12:53:00 - [27] CCP has pretty much promised two improvements: - Separate fuel bay (leaving main cargo for usefull, or just doubling the total capacity?) - Ability to launch covert cynoes in cyno jammed systems After these (with or without scan resolution penalty), they are good enough niche ships. Meaning they can do fun and unique things in proper gangs. They just won't be general improvements over T1 battleships. Thus might consider one if: - The current concept of stealthy sounds fine to you - You can afford to keep fitted BO-BS (600M+) in your hangar most of the time, and use it on one of those rare stealth ops Do not train for one hoping it can do things other BSes do well. -Lasse soon to finish lv5
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.10 14:13:00 - [28] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Though, a deep space exploration battleship WOULD be bad-ass. :) Wasn't that the point of Marauders? In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.10 14:18:00 - [29] Edited by: Rajere on 10/12/2008 14:26:08 Quote: CCP has pretty much promised two improvements: - Separate fuel bay (leaving main cargo for usefull, or just doubling the total capacity?) - Ability to launch covert cynoes in cyno jammed systems After these (with or without scan resolution penalty), they are good enough niche ships. Meaning they can do fun and unique things in proper gangs. They just won't be general improvements over T1 battleships. Thus might consider one if: - The current concept of stealthy sounds fine to you - You can afford to keep fitted BO-BS (600M+) in your hangar most of the time, and use it on one of those rare stealth ops Do not train for one hoping it can do things other BSes do well. they were never going to be better than their t1 counterparts stat wise, if you were expecting this kill yourself (in game) because you're a moron. Devs were pretty specific when they said they didn't want them to be stronger/as strong as their t1 counterparts because the choice between a geddon or a geddon with a jump drive is a pretty easy choice to make and they would quickly supercede their t1 counterparts. If you do "stealth ops" rarely then obviously you should reconsider purchasing one and just buy a recon instead, and let that sit in your hangar for the rare times you use it. If you do "stealth ops" or rather, if you do Black Ops often, then you should definitely consider purchasing a blackops battleship as they are the pinnacle of stealth op tactics. We use blackops practically every single day for example. Only thing that slows us down and prevents us from using them as often as we used to is that they are too effective, or maybe we are, but we've kinda killed off all the viable targets within 3 regions and the pickings are getting slim. As soon as the change goes in to allow us to use them in cynojammed systems we'll probably take a road trip and show you what you've been missing. -------------------------- NOTR
ViperVenom Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.10 14:44:00 - [30] At the current build Blk Ops are Fail... Maybe after a major rework they will be ok but as for now they sux. --Yarring in a system near you--

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