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Blackops: Worth it?

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Bobba Blue	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:40:00 - [1] Hello all, I have heard bad things about the black ops ship and i have been training up to fly one. Was just wondering what are there limitations and why are they so bad? I was goign to fly the Amarr one with pride :)
Ziena Amani	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:46:00 - [2] In before Waxau?
ee21k	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:47:00 - [3] never flown on myslef but the way i hear it people think they are too expensive and are always targetted first in a fight? personally i think people were just diasppointed they didnt get a battleship class HAC and are being **y about it, but thats just me... ...... Bring along the other shoe. Boosh!**
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:54:00 - [4] Originally by: ee21k never flown on myslef but the way i hear it people think they are too expensive and are always targetted first in a fight? personally i think people were just diasppointed they didnt get a battleship class HAC and are being ****y about it, but thats just me... Well, they can't really do their intended role all that well. And it more of a BS class recon, not HAC ;)
Bobba Blue	Posted - 2008.12.08 14:57:00 - [5] Ahh ok thanks, plus i just had a quick scan of the forums and found them already answered (stupid me) I think i will carry on the training as i am only 4 days from cyno theory 5 I hope they get buffed soon :)
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2008.12.08 15:48:00 - [6] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: ee21k never flown on myslef but the way i hear it people think they are too expensive and are always targetted first in a fight? personally i think people were just diasppointed they didnt get a battleship class HAC and are being ****y about it, but thats just me... Well, they can't really do their intended role all that well. And it more of a BS class recon, not HAC ;) not even like recons tbh, just T1 BS with worse stats and role bonuses that are woefully inadequate.
Dr Caligo	Posted - 2008.12.08 15:54:00 - [7] Nope not worth it really at the moment unless you just want to have it for the neato factor.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.08 15:57:00 - [8] Consider carefully what they're intended for. These are not ships of the line. If you take one into a fleet battle next to their T1 counterparts, as the old saying goes, "you're doing it wrong". I don't think these things will come into their own, because I don't see the ships they were really intended as combat support for, the stealth bombers, ever reaching their full potential. You should be able to use these battleships to bridge in a massive gank fleet of bombers to catch a target group completely flatfooted. The problem here is that when was the last time you saw a major fleet full of stealth ships try a gank op? I can think of one, and it failed pretty epically. Right now, the best use I can think of for a Black Ops is stealth jumping Blockade Runners with ultravaluable cargos around in relative secrecy. They were just never intended to be part of a standard fleet, they were supposed to lead "shock" fleets that would hit hard and fade before organized resistance showed up. Tactics of that sort have just never materialized that way in practice. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Waxau Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.12.08 17:06:00 - [9] You could also use one of the several black ops threads that are currently circulating the front page.
Yoko Lee Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.08 17:26:00 - [10] Black ops not just for Blockade Runners, and no just for 0.0, i use it for low and secure, war target or gate camp, but too expensive to lose (500M redeemer just for cloack and not enough scan resolution 175 scan reso with 1 sensor booster II). Eve is not just a 0.0 game dont forget that ccp, thanks.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.12.08 17:57:00 - [11] They have a low scan resoluion - their cloak recalibration bonus almost might as well not be - even a battleship will be gone before you have locked, unless you have a friend tackling. Their jump range is so low they cannot cross region, or sometimes constellation boundaries. Their fuel use is prohibitive. The ships themselves aren't particularly resilient, and aren't particularly good on firepower/tank. Are they worthless? Well, no. But you'll have to think very carefully about how you're going to use it in such a way as it's a better choice than a tech 1 BS. And that's even before you start considering relative pricetag. -- 249km locking?
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.08 18:53:00 - [12] Black ops are the biggist load of crap I have seen in this game. I use them as glorified jumpdrive haulers. They never were designed with real world pvp in mind. They need to be sc****d and remade. -- Billion Isk Mission
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.12.08 19:32:00 - [13] Originally by: Lord WarATron Black ops are the biggist load of crap I have seen in this game. I use them as glorified jumpdrive haulers. They never were designed with real world pvp in mind. They need to be sc****d and remade. I love mine. It looks pretty. But seriously, I think the Widow could actually work, if it becomes a bit closer to a Scorpion + Raven put together. Y'know, boost all it's stats accordingly, and end up with a Raven with 1 less low, 2 extra mids, and the bonuses of both ships. You'd have a capable ECM and cruise at extreme range platform (about on a par with 3 stealth bombers and a Falcon). Or a close range gank + (ECM \| TANK) ship, but as we all know close range with a 500mil hull and no tank is a good way to lose one. And it'd be a good ship, but not really the 'alpha class' that I think CCP were worried would happen. As it is, you need the skills for a carrier, just about. And the pricetag, without the insurance. Is it really so unreasonable that it be able to compete with a Carrier for awesomeness? -- 249km locking?
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.08 19:57:00 - [14] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Lord WarATron Black ops are the biggist load of crap I have seen in this game. I use them as glorified jumpdrive haulers. They never were designed with real world pvp in mind. They need to be sc**d and remade. I love mine. It looks pretty. But seriously, I think the Widow could actually work, if it becomes a bit closer to a Scorpion + Raven put together. Y'know, boost all it's stats accordingly, and end up with a Raven with 1 less low, 2 extra mids, and the bonuses of both ships. You'd have a capable ECM and cruise at extreme range platform (about on a par with 3 stealth bombers and a Falcon). Or a close range gank + (ECM \| TANK) ship, but as we all know close range with a 500mil hull and no tank is a good way to lose one. And it'd be a good ship, but not really the 'alpha class' that I think CCP were worried would happen. As it is, you need the skills for a carrier, just about. And the pricetag, without the insurance. Is it really so unreasonable that it be able to compete with a Carrier for awesomeness? Increasing its jump range with lower fuel costs, Covops cloak usage, no loss of scan resolution when uncloaked, no recalibration timer, and the ability to fit command links. Leave tackling to the Covops frigates (give them something to do other than scout), the primary alpha damage output to the Stealth Bombers and Combat Recons, and use the Black Ops in a Covert Command role. Balance it out by requiring it to be uncloaked to get the Command Link bonuses, and maybe you've got something. It may not end up very useful to major 0.0 alliances, but pirates and low sec raiders would have a LOT of fun with it. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.**
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.08 20:38:00 - [15] The oh so promised fuel bay and the elimination of the sigres penalty could go a loooong way to making this ship class playable. Other things like the afforementioned gang links and all that jig aren't necessary as you begin to ask for too much utility from a single ship. Boink!
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.08 21:10:00 - [16] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 08/12/2008 21:11:28 Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Lord WarATron Black ops are the biggist load of crap I have seen in this game. I use them as glorified jumpdrive haulers. They never were designed with real world pvp in mind. They need to be sc****d and remade. I love mine. It looks pretty. But seriously, I think the Widow could actually work, if it becomes a bit closer to a Scorpion + Raven put together. Y'know, boost all it's stats accordingly, and end up with a Raven with 1 less low, 2 extra mids, and the bonuses of both ships. You'd have a capable ECM and cruise at extreme range platform (about on a par with 3 stealth bombers and a Falcon). Or a close range gank + (ECM \| TANK) ship, but as we all know close range with a 500mil hull and no tank is a good way to lose one. And it'd be a good ship, but not really the 'alpha class' that I think CCP were worried would happen. As it is, you need the skills for a carrier, just about. And the pricetag, without the insurance. Is it really so unreasonable that it be able to compete with a Carrier for awesomeness? The issue with black ops is that it looks like its been designed by people on paper. If I want to do ECm, I fly a falcon. If I want to do fleets, I fly a Navy Apoc. If I want to shoot pos, I fly a Dread. If I want to haul I use a DST/Blockade Runner. If I want to act as the "aura buffer", I use a command Ship. If I want to tackle, i fly a Intercepter. If I want to bubble, I fly a Dictor or HIC. If I want to mine, I use a Barge. If I want to NPC, I use a Maurader. If I want to do gang stuff or Support stuff, I use HAC/BC etc etc. If I want to spy + Probe, I use Cov Ops. If I want to act like a ninja and jump targets, I use force recon. etc etc etc Current Blackops design is baised on a style of play that does not exist. Want to ecm in a widow? Well, use a Falcon - its better and can warp cloaked. If you want Tank + Damage then use a T1 BS. Calling a Widow a ECM + Tank ship makes no sense. Either your tank is ECM or its conventional tank + Gank. The Entire black ops line needs to be taken back to the drawing board and compleatly remade. The Widow is a one legged footballer who can kick the ball, but that does not mean that he has a place in the match. -- Billion Isk Mission
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.09 13:48:00 - [17] Edited by: Rajere on 09/12/2008 13:50:33 Quote: I think i will carry on the training as i am only 4 days from cyno theory 5 The blackops pilot does not need cyno 5, in fact it's rather detrimental to have cyno 5 on the blackops pilot. I hope you mean your alt is 4 days from cyno 5, otherwise you are doing it wrong. Quote: They were just never intended to be part of a standard fleet, they were supposed to lead "shock" fleets that would hit hard and fade before organized resistance showed up. Tactics of that sort have just never materialized that way in practice. This is the only bit of truth posted in this thread so far, except for the last line, which is false. You've never figured out the tactics sure, doesn't mean other people haven't. -------------------------- NOTR
Kildan Caldari Heimatar Exploration	Posted - 2008.12.09 15:42:00 - [18] I don't think there's much wrong with black ops themselves now. Locking time is appalling but you should have recons with you to tackle opponents. Lack of fuel bay and cost of bridging is laughable but you can have a blockade runner with you to solve that. Only real problem is not being able to light covert cynos in cyno-jammed systems, which are pretty much everywhere in 0.0 now.
Waxau Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.12.09 16:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Kildan I don't think there's much wrong with black ops themselves now. Locking time is appalling but you should have recons with you to tackle opponents. Lack of fuel bay and cost of bridging is laughable but you can have a blockade runner with you to solve that. Only real problem is not being able to light covert cynos in cyno-jammed systems, which are pretty much everywhere in 0.0 now. Id like to consider myself somewhat open to other peoples opinions...but lol! Locking time has everything to do with it, not just tackling. The Widow for example...an ECM boat. What use is ECM, if the target is already dead when you lock him? He might have already popped one of your friends, or if hes ECM fitted himself, jammed your buddies. Thus, ECM is useless. Or any DPS of the ship itself in most scenarios. Recons deal a decent amount of damage, and in a 'gank gang' scenario, which is what these ships would be used for (stealth gatecamp etc), a ship isnt going to survive long enough to have the Black Ops have any real role. Blockade runner doesnt solve anything. All it means is that for more than a one way ticket, you now need to have a hauler alt follow you around constantly. Nothing more. And the whole 'covert cyno' crap...I flew my widow in lowsec...i never had the slightest concern with cyno jammed systems, as you can probably guess. So pray tell, how am i going to use this ship?
Wild Rho Amarr Sniggerdly	Posted - 2008.12.09 16:36:00 - [20] The main things I'd like to see with a black ops BS would be... - A much longer jump range. - The ability to carry out a shorter range jump that does not require a cyno field (the target ship could jump directly to the sun of the target system - designated by the autopilot). - The often mentioned fuel bay.
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.12.09 18:08:00 - [21] Edited by: NeoTheo on 09/12/2008 18:08:48 the sin does not totally suc imo, rest of them are a bit meh. Originally by: Ziena Amani In before Waxau? damit! ;) - DAMT - If you dont know, well, you dont know!
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.09 23:17:00 - [22] Originally by: Kildan I don't think there's much wrong with black ops themselves now. Indeed. They are excellent Jumpdrive haulers. -- Billion Isk Mission
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.10 00:40:00 - [23] To fix them, CCP must give them at least some useful roles, which these ships lack now. Anything they can do other ships can do better. Carriers, for about the same price, can transport in their bays the ships it is meant to jump portal in. T1 battleships can inflict more damage, are cheaper and usually superior in every combat aspect. As the game works now there is no motive whatsover to use a Black ops ship instead of other ships, no matter what you want to do. One possible solution would be to give them a scan probe time bonus and make them into a deep exploration vessel. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
White Ronin Gallente Blueprint Haus	Posted - 2008.12.10 01:16:00 - [24] Edited by: White Ronin on 10/12/2008 01:16:21 Originally by: Etho Demerzel One possible solution would be to give them a scan probe time bonus and make them into a deep exploration vessel. My dream. But for more then a half billion isk they would need to have some substantial bonuses to exploration in addition to a scan time bonus. --------------------------------------------- "There have always been ghosts in the machine . . . random segments of code that have grouped together to form unexpected protocols. "
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol Doctrine.	Posted - 2008.12.10 01:42:00 - [25] Errr... let's not turn the only tech 2 battleship currently ingame that was INITIALLY CREATED for PVP purposes into a carebear ship. Granted, I have actually used my Sin for exploration already, and would love to see it have the ability to use a Bonused Sisters Scan Probe Launcher, I really would rather it have some good PVP abilities beyond agility (which is actually a nice bonus when you abuse it). Though, a deep space exploration battleship WOULD be bad-ass. :) www.siigarikitawa.com ò www.quafeultra.com
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.10 12:40:00 - [26] use my redeemer purely for pvp, then again i'm not as fail as the posters in this thread who can't figure out the ships role. -------------------------- NOTR
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.10 12:53:00 - [27] CCP has pretty much promised two improvements: - Separate fuel bay (leaving main cargo for usefull, or just doubling the total capacity?) - Ability to launch covert cynoes in cyno jammed systems After these (with or without scan resolution penalty), they are good enough niche ships. Meaning they can do fun and unique things in proper gangs. They just won't be general improvements over T1 battleships. Thus might consider one if: - The current concept of stealthy sounds fine to you - You can afford to keep fitted BO-BS (600M+) in your hangar most of the time, and use it on one of those rare stealth ops Do not train for one hoping it can do things other BSes do well. -Lasse soon to finish lv5
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.10 14:13:00 - [28] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Though, a deep space exploration battleship WOULD be bad-ass. :) Wasn't that the point of Marauders? In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.10 14:18:00 - [29] Edited by: Rajere on 10/12/2008 14:26:08 Quote: CCP has pretty much promised two improvements: - Separate fuel bay (leaving main cargo for usefull, or just doubling the total capacity?) - Ability to launch covert cynoes in cyno jammed systems After these (with or without scan resolution penalty), they are good enough niche ships. Meaning they can do fun and unique things in proper gangs. They just won't be general improvements over T1 battleships. Thus might consider one if: - The current concept of stealthy sounds fine to you - You can afford to keep fitted BO-BS (600M+) in your hangar most of the time, and use it on one of those rare stealth ops Do not train for one hoping it can do things other BSes do well. they were never going to be better than their t1 counterparts stat wise, if you were expecting this kill yourself (in game) because you're a moron. Devs were pretty specific when they said they didn't want them to be stronger/as strong as their t1 counterparts because the choice between a geddon or a geddon with a jump drive is a pretty easy choice to make and they would quickly supercede their t1 counterparts. If you do "stealth ops" rarely then obviously you should reconsider purchasing one and just buy a recon instead, and let that sit in your hangar for the rare times you use it. If you do "stealth ops" or rather, if you do Black Ops often, then you should definitely consider purchasing a blackops battleship as they are the pinnacle of stealth op tactics. We use blackops practically every single day for example. Only thing that slows us down and prevents us from using them as often as we used to is that they are too effective, or maybe we are, but we've kinda killed off all the viable targets within 3 regions and the pickings are getting slim. As soon as the change goes in to allow us to use them in cynojammed systems we'll probably take a road trip and show you what you've been missing. -------------------------- NOTR
ViperVenom Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.10 14:44:00 - [30] At the current build Blk Ops are Fail... Maybe after a major rework they will be ok but as for now they sux. --Yarring in a system near you--
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol Doctrine.	Posted - 2008.12.10 14:47:00 - [31] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 10/12/2008 14:49:12 Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Though, a deep space exploration battleship WOULD be bad-ass. :) Wasn't that the point of Marauders? No, I think Marauders were relegated to the role of highsec mission running money making tool. I see what the poster was saying about using deep space exploration vessels though... a cloaking battleship with scan probe bonuses and a myriad of abilities that make it an exploration ship that can find, run and exploit a complex. I mean just look at the potential with a Sin: [Sin, Exploration] Dark Blood Large Armor Repairer Dark Blood Medium Armor Repairer Dark Blood Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Dark Blood Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Dark Blood Armor Explosive Hardener Damage Control II Core X-Type 100MN Afterburner Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Analyzer I Codebreaker I Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Salvager I Sisters Scan Probe Launcher, Radar Quest Probe Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Auxiliary Nano Pump I Gravity Capacitor Upgrade II Ogre II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Berserker II x5 Hammerhead II x5 Medium Armor Maintenance Bot II x5 Warrior II x5 That thing would be GODLY (if you worked out the kinks). But the idea here is that if you want to take a ship down to do deep space exploration, it is an entire platform designed for it and can accommodate a variety of roles to assist. Hell, I'd even have found a use for a tech 2 grav cap. I already kind of used my this way from time-to-time, sans a covops cloak ;) www.siigarikitawa.com ò www.quafeultra.com
Word	Posted - 2008.12.13 01:19:00 - [32] Transport can use cov-ops cloak now. Never expected that! I have mine rigged for agility, plus inertials and it aligns as fast as a frig, faster than a cov ops ship! and nice cargo space. It's more fun than ever. I'm gambling that someday something good will happen to black 0ps. Black ops needs to jump autonomously, solo, without cyno, and use the cov-ops cloak. Mine stays in hi sec until it's fixed. Testing on SiSi does show good firepower, and nice cloaked speed, 300+ms. I want to be LUDICROUS
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.13 04:15:00 - [33] Originally by: Rajere they were never going to be better than their t1 counterparts stat wise, if you were expecting this kill yourself (in game) because you're a moron. Devs were pretty specific when they said they didn't want them to be stronger/as strong as their t1 counterparts because the choice between a geddon or a geddon with a jump drive is a pretty easy choice to make and they would quickly supercede their t1 counterparts. Except the part where they cost 500m each. This means you have a ship that in many ways is worse than it's T1 base, but you can buy and fit, what, 3 or so of those T1 ships for the cost of one of these. The role they have is fine, but a panther has the same amount of armor as a hurricane for example. They need to be boosted in nearly every catagory.
Ravenal The Fated	Posted - 2008.12.13 05:53:00 - [34] how much more uber would they be if unchanged - but local would be delayed/gone? .
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.13 06:05:00 - [35] Edited by: Rajere on 13/12/2008 06:10:09 they would go from being awesome ships to being sucky ships and there would be very little reason to use them over t1 battleships or carriers. That is if they simply removed local or placed local on delayed mode or something to that effect. removing local combined with changing the scanner (see one of the million different threads about locals for the million different possible scenarios) would of course have a radical effect on the game balance so it would be hard to predict precisely how it would impact them, but suffice to say any change which removes local as the instant intel tool that it is will have a negative impact on how effective blackops are. Their role exists precisely because local is an instant intel tool and the ramifications of it and how the playerbase functions because of it. -------------------------- NOTR
slothe Caldari Murky Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.13 11:33:00 - [36] they are not worth it at all at the moment. i have a sin and a widow, and cant see a situation i could use it that would be useful. some people (rajere and others) say they are fine. well they could be fine in certain verys specific niche roles, but realistically for most people they suck. as people keep saying they have no real use atm and are simply not worth buying, at the price they sell for. they may one day become good. they are just a few tweaks from being useful, but until them, and at present, they arent really much use at all.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.13 12:29:00 - [37] Originally by: Rajere they were never going to be better than their t1 counterparts stat wise, if you were expecting this kill yourself (in game) because you're a moron. Strange how faction ships seems to be better than their t1 versions statswise. People are not fussed about stats, rather they care more about facility. The facility of a black ops is pretty useless. Is there any situation that a gang ship, such as a black ops, would be better than a conventional t1 or t2 ship already in existance? Are there any situations where a black ops outclasses a conventional t1/t2 ship for small scale, solo and mid/large gang pvp? It seems to be that other than for killing noobcruisers or jumpdrive hauler or cargo pilgrim portaler, there is little point in a black ops. -- Billion Isk Mission
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:30:00 - [38] Edited by: Rajere on 13/12/2008 15:36:30 Quote: Strange how faction ships seems to be better than their t1 versions statswise. People are not fussed about stats, rather they care more about facility. lol. let me know how the jump drive on those faction battleships work out for you. Oh wait, that's right, fail more please. Quote: Is there any situation that a gang ship, such as a black ops, would be better than a conventional t1 or t2 ship already in existance? yes. Quote: they are not worth it at all at the moment. i have a sin and a widow, and cant see a situation i could use it that would be useful. I love these replies :) "I own 2 different blackops thus establishing myself as an authority on the matter, but i'm too nub to figure out how they work, therefore I deem they are useless and they sit in my hangar, harhar. Obviously you should take advice from me, a guy who has over a billion of isk tied up in ships collecting dust because I'm too fail to use them, I keep them around just so I can whine about them on forums. harhar." -------------------------- NOTR
EmperorPirk	Posted - 2008.12.13 15:54:00 - [39] you know what they say, "one mans junk is another mans gold". but then agin, this signature isn't really relavent to this topic, now is it?
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.13 19:25:00 - [40] Originally by: Lord WarATron The facility of a black ops is pretty useless. Is there any situation that a gang ship, such as a black ops, would be better than a conventional t1 or t2 ship already in existance? If you're asking if the general idea has merit, it does. Problem is simply for the cost that you pay, the capabilities you get in return are not enough. People will instead fit cloaks on normal BS (seeing this more and more) and use those instead. When you combine all of the ways that a BO is hobbled as currently designed it makes for a poor ship choice overall. Widow is probably the worst because it tries to be both a raven and a scorp at the same time and ends up doing neither very well.
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2008.12.13 19:32:00 - [41] Originally by: Rajere Edited by: Rajere on 13/12/2008 15:37:21 Quote: Strange how faction ships seems to be better than their t1 versions statswise. People are not fussed about stats, rather they care more about facility. lol. let me know how the jump drive on those faction battleships work out for you. Oh wait, that's right, fail more please. Quote: Is there any situation that a gang ship, such as a black ops, would be better than a conventional t1 or t2 ship already in existance? yes. Quote: they are not worth it at all at the moment. i have a sin and a widow, and cant see a situation i could use it that would be useful. I love these replies :) "I own 2 different blackops thus establishing myself as an authority on the matter, but i'm too nub to figure out how they work, therefore I deem they are useless and they sit in my hangar, harhar. Obviously you should take advice from me, a guy who has over a billion isk tied up in ships collecting dust because I'm too fail to use them, but I gotta keep them around just so I can whine about them on forums with some level of authority on the matter. harhar." This has got to be like your fourth post in this thread in which you laugh yourself silly about how 'fail' everyone else is, and yet you haven't contributed set-ups or tactics. When you said 'no-one else can work out their role cept ME' , do you jump yourselves onto a gate and camp it a little ? Or do you scout a mining op or what ? Come on Mr Uber... Enlighten us. Essentially what im trying to get across here is either tell us why black ops are pretty solid as they are, or STFU :)
Drake Draconis Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.13 19:39:00 - [42] I still say that a cov-ops cloak ability for them would be fantastic. Otherwise it just seems only "Slightly" better than a battleship.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.13 20:22:00 - [43] Originally by: Katarlia Simov Originally by: Rajere Edited by: Rajere on 13/12/2008 15:37:21 Quote: Strange how faction ships seems to be better than their t1 versions statswise. People are not fussed about stats, rather they care more about facility. lol. let me know how the jump drive on those faction battleships work out for you. Oh wait, that's right, fail more please. Quote: Is there any situation that a gang ship, such as a black ops, would be better than a conventional t1 or t2 ship already in existance? yes. Quote: they are not worth it at all at the moment. i have a sin and a widow, and cant see a situation i could use it that would be useful. I love these replies :) "I own 2 different blackops thus establishing myself as an authority on the matter, but i'm too nub to figure out how they work, therefore I deem they are useless and they sit in my hangar, harhar. Obviously you should take advice from me, a guy who has over a billion isk tied up in ships collecting dust because I'm too fail to use them, but I gotta keep them around just so I can whine about them on forums with some level of authority on the matter. harhar." This has got to be like your fourth post in this thread in which you laugh yourself silly about how 'fail' everyone else is, and yet you haven't contributed set-ups or tactics. When you said 'no-one else can work out their role cept ME' , do you jump yourselves onto a gate and camp it a little ? Or do you scout a mining op or what ? Come on Mr Uber... Enlighten us. Essentially what im trying to get across here is either tell us why black ops are pretty solid as they are, or STFU :) All that guy is doing is killing 2 week old noobcruisers in 0.4 belts and is probebly too ashamed to admit it. Notice how he refuses to mention a single situation where a black ops is better than a conventional t1/t2 ship in solo/small or medium gang/large scale pvp. -- Billion Isk Mission
MITSUK0	Posted - 2008.12.13 21:48:00 - [44] Blackops is a gret concept but in true CCP fashion it is badly implemented (<3). The idea of having a cov-os light a covert cyno and then a blackops be jump portaling itself and a bunch of stealth bomber and recons into the gith is cool. Several things need fixing though, from jump range of the ship itself, there ability to support fleets consisting of recons and stealth bombers and the fact that stealth bombers **ing suck and recons have ** poor dps across the board. When you think about it like that it is obvious. They need increased jump range, viable way to portal in recons and stealth bombers. Then when they get there they need to provide the gank. GANK. Let the recons handle the ewar.
Bazman Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.12.13 22:16:00 - [45] The only thing i've used my Redeemer for is a bit of Tachyon sniping support for a Recon gate camp, they offer a decent DPS addition to a cloaky gang, but you're pretty much limited to camps with it. -----
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.14 01:19:00 - [46] Originally by: Lord WarATron All that guy is doing is killing 2 week old noobcruisers in 0.4 belts and is probebly too ashamed to admit it. Notice how he refuses to mention a single situation where a black ops is better than a conventional t1/t2 ship in solo/small or medium gang/large scale pvp. yeah, that's what i'm doing ignore the stuff in between, just 11/5 and 11/16-17. We've killed off the populations of two regions in less than a month leaving us with no targets :( so we try to limit our visits to aridia to 2-3 times a month to allow the bears time to recooperate. -------------------------- NOTR
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.14 01:42:00 - [47] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 14/12/2008 01:42:53 Originally by: Rajere Originally by: Lord WarATron All that guy is doing is killing 2 week old noobcruisers in 0.4 belts and is probebly too ashamed to admit it. Notice how he refuses to mention a single situation where a black ops is better than a conventional t1/t2 ship in solo/small or medium gang/large scale pvp. yeah, that's what i'm doing ignore the stuff in between, just 11/5 and 11/16-17. We've killed off the populations of two regions in less than a month leaving us with no targets :( so we try to limit our visits to aridia to 2-3 times a month to allow the bears time to recooperate. All I see is ganks of what appears to be ratters with groups of Black Ops + falcon. A group of pretty much any pvp ship + falcon can beat up t1 lolfit ratters. You cannot claim black ops are balanced because a group of blackops and a falcon managed to kill noobfit ratters or noobcruisers. Involve a small gang vs gang pvp and then it all falls apart. -- Billion Isk Mission
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2008.12.14 01:45:00 - [48] Originally by: Rajere Originally by: Lord WarATron All that guy is doing is killing 2 week old noobcruisers in 0.4 belts and is probebly too ashamed to admit it. Notice how he refuses to mention a single situation where a black ops is better than a conventional t1/t2 ship in solo/small or medium gang/large scale pvp. yeah, that's what i'm doing ignore the stuff in between, just 11/5 and 11/16-17. We've killed off the populations of two regions in less than a month leaving us with no targets :( so we try to limit our visits to aridia to 2-3 times a month to allow the bears time to recooperate. Actually it looks to me like all you're doing is piling onto people with a bundle of black ops bses instead of regular bs, which is hardly impressive. Also your stats say that you haven't actually personally killed anything in a blackops, although that may well not be true, but I'm not checking every mail on your board to see if its true. If, as it appears, that all you are using your black ops for is EXACTLY the same as what you use a regular bs for but pimper, becuase they are black ops, all you are doing is proving how little better black ops are than regular ships. To anyone who couldn't be bothered looking at their board, it appears the tactic du jour is you send a cov-ops and a generic tanky bait ship, catch someone then jump black ops on to it. Now... maybe its just me, but since you're spending some 2bil on blackops, why the hell wouldn't you just use a carrier ? More epeen points for your kb ?
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.14 02:15:00 - [49] wow killboards tell complete stories now? The reason you fly recon gangs is because nobody will fight unless you force them to. If you're in a big alliance in sov space and you want a fight, you go shoot somebodies POSes into reinforced. It's like scheduling fights, "pencil us in for a fight 2 days from now, k?". We hate shooting poses, so you fly recon ganks to grief or **** people off enough to fight back. The problem with recon gangs is people blob. People keep scouts all over. People see you coming and if you come with half of what they have they go dock up and log, or switch to bigger ships, undock carriers, call for "moar x!!!!" and etc. While "a" recon can slip around and evade gate camps a plenty a recon gang cannot, a recon gang gets followed, it's too large and has too much of a local foot print to simply slip away. Recons have f#ckall dps as it is, even if you catch something you can't kill it with 15 battleships half a warp behind you trying to 'defend their space.' What you don't see, for example, on 11/16, the entire night there was a 25 man BS heavy anti-pirate blob hunting us the entire time, trying to camp gates, trying to lock down the systems we were cloaked up in having just killed one of their carebears. You can camp every gate out of the system we're cloaked in, bring in as many probers as you want, bring as big of blob as you can muster. We've already killed the ship we came to kill, and already scooped all his shiny faction loot. With 2-3 tacklers spread around each in different systems finding targets and the blobmoar mentality that refuses to split up into smaller groups to hunt things, at best they can follow 1 tackler while the other 2 lineup the next targets. So go ahead and camp that gate and keep spamming that scanner, the moment we decloak and you see us on scan again is the moment we're exiting the system to kill another CNR 3 jumps over. Don't worry his wreck will already be salvaged and we'll be cloaked at another safe spot, before you even enter local. No one is willing to engage in pvp fights any longer, just the way the playerbase has p#ssified over time and the way the game has been headed for a good long while. Luckily your willingness to engage is not required, and now, the speed of your defender's response time and your ability to blob up is completely inconsequential as well. You can try to get crafty, like try and sneak in a cloaked hic with a cyno fit and hotdrop carriers or something. See the 11/5 fight for an example of how well that little endeavor pays off. -------------------------- NOTR
Princess 02	Posted - 2008.12.14 02:50:00 - [50] I was thinking of a totally new role bonus: How about giving black ops the ability to: Shut down complex acceleration gates... Close (upcoming) wormholes... or EXPLODE asteroids... LOL.. LOL.... HOW ABOUT putting TRAPS in the above!?!?!?!... and of couse its covert cyno in cyno-jammed system.. to terrorise people... Yup I call that A THORN IN THE A*S BEHIND ENEMY LINE... we dont need another gank/tank/ewar/command crap...
Ahz	Posted - 2008.12.14 07:52:00 - [51] Originally by: Lord WarATron Current Blackops design is baised on a style of play that does not exist. This pretty much sums it up from my perspective. Black ops are designed around a very specific combat scenario: - Sneak in a covert ops - Light off a covert cyno - Cyno in a black ops - Jump in a small group of bombers / recons from a nearby system - Wreak havoc on something small enough that a handful of recons can handle it - Jump / cyno out again Seriously, why bother? It takes a fraction of the effort and planning to mass up a small gang of mixed ships and smash into whatever defenses your target system has in place. Or better yet, wait until they drop their guard and bring in anything you want. CCP has to be very careful with these ships. Make them too versatile and no one in 0.0 will ever fly anything other than a black ops. Make them too weak and no one will fly them at all. Whatever changes they introduce are going to have to expand the role of sneaking in a fleet behind enemy lines without obsoleting all other BS. Adding a fuel bay and increasing the jump ranges will probably do the trick. Black ops should also be able to act as a jump portal for anything cruiser sized and below.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.12.14 08:35:00 - [52] And what exactly is the point of black ops in the "keep them from running until it's too late" role (also known as "hotdropping")? A carrier can do all of that, and do it much better. -----------
Hyveres Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.14 10:59:00 - [53] Well might just be the people I talk to ingame , but my impression is that blackops gangs are probably the only roamers that can fully dictate the terms of any engagement after the nanonerf. Yes it is expensive and in a "normal" gang they are not costefficient but pure blackops gangs are more or less impossible to lock down as long as they play smart. "Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot." - Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.14 12:24:00 - [54] Originally by: Rajere wow killboards tell complete stories now? The reason you fly recon gangs is because nobody will fight unless you force them to. If you're in a big alliance in sov space and you want a fight, you go shoot somebodies POSes into reinforced. It's like scheduling fights, "pencil us in for a fight 2 days from now, k?". We hate shooting poses, so you fly recon ganks to grief or **** people off enough to fight back. The problem with recon gangs is people blob. People keep scouts all over. People see you coming and if you come with half of what they have they go dock up and log, or switch to bigger ships, undock carriers, call for "moar x!!!!" and etc. While "a" recon can slip around and evade gate camps a plenty a recon gang cannot, a recon gang gets followed, it's too large and has too much of a local foot print to simply slip away. Recons have f#ckall dps as it is, even if you catch something you can't kill it with 15 battleships half a warp behind you trying to 'defend their space.' What you don't see, for example, on 11/16, the entire night there was a 25 man BS heavy anti-pirate blob hunting us the entire time, trying to camp gates, trying to lock down the systems we were cloaked up in having just killed one of their carebears. You can camp every gate out of the system we're cloaked in, bring in as many probers as you want, bring as big of blob as you can muster. We've already killed the ship we came to kill, and already scooped all his shiny faction loot. With 2-3 tacklers spread around each in different systems finding targets and the blobmoar mentality that refuses to split up into smaller groups to hunt things, at best they can follow 1 tackler while the other 2 lineup the next targets. So go ahead and camp that gate and keep spamming that scanner, the moment we decloak and you see us on scan again is the moment we're exiting the system to kill another CNR 3 jumps over. Don't worry his wreck will already be salvaged and we'll be cloaked at another safe spot, before you even enter local. No one is willing to engage in pvp fights any longer, just the way the playerbase has p#ssified over time and the way the game has been headed for a good long while. Luckily your willingness to engage is not required, and now, the speed of your defender's response time and your ability to blob up is completely inconsequential as well. You can try to get crafty, like try and sneak in a cloaked hic with a cyno fit and hotdrop carriers or something. See the 11/5 fight for an example of how well that little endeavor pays off. The issue is that hotdrop styles of play can work better with 2-3 sensorbooster/cap relay carriers. Jump in, nuke a nub ratter with fights in less moments and jump out, all done in less than a minute and this tactic is already being used by a few pirate groups who do it very well (they are one of the few cap relay setups that fit their ninja style of play). Whats more, carriers have longer range etc, meaning more targets, and are insurable, thus making losses not matter as much as a black ops loss. Of course, its unlikely that either scenario would have any ship being lost, due to quick action vs noob ratters who do not keep a eye on local. If a black ops could jump to a star without a cyno, e.g jumping to a sun or random SS for example, then I would agree that that is true sneaking around. Just now, you have to rely on a noob ratter to ignore a hostile in local for something like a minute or more, while you find him in a belt and fire up a cyno for others to go though. A 2-3 sensor booster / cap relay carrier gank squad could nuke a ship and jump out in much less time. -- Billion Isk Mission
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.14 13:36:00 - [55] keep theory crafting more brosefs. I love how you're all too dense to see that we use both, dreads too, depending on the circumstances, and thus are well aware of when it is appropriate to use carriers, when its appropriate to use dreads, when it's appropriate to use blackops. We use blackops more than the rest, because the situations where you would use a blackops would result in a losing a cyno ship (tank bc or bs, cyno frig has no chance) and several lost carriers if you tried to drop carriers instead of blackops. But keep on theorycrafting guys, it's totally more important to convince people on forums than it is to play the game. -------------------------- NOTR
Lyvanna Kitaen Minmatar Noonday Sun Corp	Posted - 2008.12.14 13:48:00 - [56] I'm thinking of training Black-ops on my main. I can see them having a use when wormholes come out in the next expansion.
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2008.12.14 14:00:00 - [57] Originally by: Rajere keep theory crafting more brosefs. I love how you're all too dense to see that we use both, dreads too, depending on the circumstances, and thus are well aware of when it is appropriate to use carriers, when its appropriate to use dreads, when it's appropriate to use blackops. We use blackops more than the rest, because the situations where you would use a blackops would result in a losing a cyno ship (tank bc or bs, cyno frig has no chance) and several lost carriers if you tried to drop carriers instead of blackops. But keep on theorycrafting guys, it's totally more important to convince people on forums than it is to play the game. Then why are you trying so hard ? If you think blackops are good, explain in a reasonable amount of detail why you think that. Explain in depth how your tactics work and what the benefits are. Just spamming again and again that no-one else understands how to use them will make people ignore you and makes you sound like an idiot. You posted a link to your killboard to prove your awesome, then when we looked at it and said 'that doesn't look that impressive', you immediately say how killboards don't give the full story. You see the problem here ? You sound about ten years old. If you want people to not think your a failure, you need to explain things and stop throwing your toys out of the pram when people disagree with your generalisations that are heavy on making yourself feel big, and low on substance.
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.14 14:21:00 - [58] Originally by: Katarlia Simov Originally by: Rajere keep theory crafting more brosefs. I love how you're all too dense to see that we use both, dreads too, depending on the circumstances, and thus are well aware of when it is appropriate to use carriers, when its appropriate to use dreads, when it's appropriate to use blackops. We use blackops more than the rest, because the situations where you would use a blackops would result in a losing a cyno ship (tank bc or bs, cyno frig has no chance) and several lost carriers if you tried to drop carriers instead of blackops. But keep on theorycrafting guys, it's totally more important to convince people on forums than it is to play the game. Then why are you trying so hard ? If you think blackops are good, explain in a reasonable amount of detail why you think that. Explain in depth how your tactics work and what the benefits are. Just spamming again and again that no-one else understands how to use them will make people ignore you and makes you sound like an idiot. You posted a link to your killboard to prove your awesome, then when we looked at it and said 'that doesn't look that impressive', you immediately say how killboards don't give the full story. You see the problem here ? You sound about ten years old. If you want people to not think your a failure, you need to explain things and stop throwing your toys out of the pram when people disagree with your generalisations that are heavy on making yourself feel big, and low on substance. lol -------------------------- NOTR
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2008.12.14 14:25:00 - [59] Point proved I fancy. You know nothing about black ops use and indeed you still sound about 10. Next time, consider not posting. Easier on the fingers and we don't have to waste our time reading your posts.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.15 18:40:00 - [60] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 15/12/2008 18:43:07 Originally by: Katarlia Simov Point proved I fancy. You know nothing about black ops use and indeed you still sound about 10. Next time, consider not posting. Easier on the fingers and we don't have to waste our time reading your posts. What he is doing, is basically using a covert cyno as a conventional cyno has a 10 min (5 min in force recon) timer. Usually, when ganking ratters, giving them 5 minutes to form up will result in a dead cyno ship. In enemy space, having to get a new ship is a pain. The second advantage is having no instant cyno warpto on overview, thus making it harder for them to organise a counterattack. So thats why he is using a gang of black ops + falcon vs noob ratters to get a quick kill in and then split. But thats less effective, in my opinion and the opinion of many pirates who do hotdrops on ratters, than a conventional carrier hotdrop (sensorbooster/relay). The carrier hotdrop vs ratter is simpler. just use a disposable t1 astrometrical frig or cov ops to quickly locate ratter and warp to them. Scramble them and then cyno in caps. Caps instagank ratter then caps kill the cyno ship, allowing the cyno pilot's pod to pickup a new ship from the carrier bay to repeat the process again. The whole thing can be over in less than a minute, and cap relay carrier can jump out very fast. The carriers beat the black ops for this style of play, which are pretty same pricewise, due to... 1. Carry spare ships in the hanger, meaning that loosing a ship or two does not result in the end of a op. This means a raiding force can change to hac's or recons if needed 2. Having plenty space for lots of cargo if they gank a hauler full of mercoxit for example. Black ops have major cargo issues due to having to store fuel. 3. Longer range = more targets as well as the ability to fustrate defenders by cynoing all over the place making it hard for noob alliance to regroup. A Blackops lacks the fuel to do this. 4. Quicker and easier ganking when you catch a target. I am not counting insurance, since in either scenario, chance of ship loss is almost non-existant. I can go on with many more reasons, but the bottom line is that a conventional t1/t2 ship is better for this role than Blackops. -- Billion Isk Mission

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