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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.12.18 06:38:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Mara Rinn on 18/12/2008 06:45:05
I'm a newb in this Falcon FOTM thing, so apologies if this seems like a troll.
Looking at the Rook vs the Falcon, it seems to me that the Rook is the stronger ship, so the main advantage of the Falcon is that it can use the covops cloak - thus ensuring that your enemy doesn't know that they're about to be jammed.
The Rook has greater range, slightly higher restistances, and has a bonus to missiles to boot!
Or am I totally missing the point, and when people complain about Falcons they really mean "Blackbird and any variant thereof"?
Add to that, my understanding of how jamming works is that it's chance-based, using a ratio of the Blackbird's jamming strength versus your sensor strength, and that this chance is calculated each 10 second cycle? Would this mean that using a sensor booster to reduce your target locking time would be a good idea, so that on the cycles that you aren't jammed, you can actually get off a salvo or two?
Looking forward to being edumicated 
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.18 06:59:00 -
[2]
Falcons (like the Rapier and Arazu) are awesome because the covert ops cloak is an incredibly powerful module.
Jam time is 10 seconds, not 20.
A sensor booster can help you lock faster, but if you're the ECM ship's primary target, you will probably never be getting a cycle where you aren't jammed.
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Hoshi
Eviction.
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Posted - 2008.12.18 07:14:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Jam time is 10 seconds, not 20.
You mean the opposite, it's 20 sec not 10.
And yes it is the cloak that make the ship, you can get into position without being seen. Depending on the situation they might not even know you have any jamming ships at all.
The cloak also allow blink tactics. Uncloak, jam 1-2 cycles and cloak again before your opponent have you locked down, warp to another jam spot and repeat.
The only thing the Rook does better than a Falcon is dps but it's not like the Rook got good dps, it just got better than the falcon. And as it doesn't have any missile range bonuses it needs to be in the thick of it to do that dps. But being in the center of the action in a EW ship generally means a quick death.
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A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
goodby4u
Valor Inc.
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Posted - 2008.12.18 07:26:00 -
[4]
Cov ops cloak is everything, because the ability to cloak in warp means you can arrive and let the people that are suppose to get called primary get called primary(with the drones on them aswell so you dont receive drone aggro)and if the **** hits the fan cloak or warp and cloak in warp.
Whereas the rook would remain uncloaked/use a crappy cloak and its locking time would take a hit.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.12.18 22:58:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Mara Rinn on 18/12/2008 22:58:22
Thanks for the responses!
Correct me if I'm wrong - but you can't cloak once you've been locked by someone, can you? Or is this another piece of magic allowed by the covops cloak?
As for counters, which ships are built for remote ECCM? I know the Gallente and Minmatar logistics cruisers are designed for enhancing tracking through tracking links - is there a similar bonus on some other ship related to remote ECCM?
I can see I have a bit of messing about to do with my Blackbird to get up to speed on just how strong ECM actually is.
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Yoko Lee
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.18 23:05:00 -
[6]
Falcon cloack can jam to 140km easier, dont understand ccp, dont understand optimal ecm, 50km must be enough no?
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.12.18 23:18:00 -
[7]
Logistics boats can remote repair at >70km, why should ECM boats be limited to less range?
150km is minimum warp-to range, so the further away the ECM is, the easier it is to intercept and destroy, surely?
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Stuart Price
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.12.18 23:52:00 -
[8]
A well prepared, alert and competent Falcon pilot is unkillable.
1. Falcon uncloaks 200km or so from the fight and begins jamming.
2. Someone shoots at the Falcon from that range (sniper ships, Anti-Falcon Cerb etc), assuming Falcon has not re-cloaked while waiting for module cooldown or event that someone CAN shoot that far.
3. Falcon warps as soon as the missiles get close or the initial volley hits. Ships with active jam cycles REMAIN JAMMED. There is no ship in the game that can Alpha a Falcon from 200km.
4. Falcon has now moved to a secondary jampoint and resumes jamming.
5. Interceptor moves to tackle Falcon. It either lock out the 'ceptor (which is trivial to a Falcon) or moves position.
6. Covops gets in position. Stuff warps to covops. Falcon warps before they are able to start locking.
7. Pilgrim uncloaks next to Falcon. Falcon warps before sensor recalibration is finished.
8. If Falcon needs to leave the field permanently (all jamspots compromised, rest of fleet dead, extremely effective sniper fire etc) it does so with ease then cloaks up and hides.
The only way a Falcon dies is when the pilot makes a mistake and someone is in a position to take advantage of it. This, in combination with their extreme influence on a fight of nearly any size makes them VERY popular and incredibly useful. This is why there are so many of them about.
Blackbirds are easily destroyed by unjammed targets (and will be primary in any case. I don't think any ship in the entire game would be primaried over a Blackbird) and Rooks are similarly at a disadvantage in that they can't fit a covops cloak.
The big advantage of a Blackbird however, is its cheap. Losing one barely dents the average players wallet, whereas losing a Falcon or Rook most certainly would. Reconciling this with the incredible survival rate of the Falcon means most players use Falcon for their ECM needs when they can afford/fly one.
Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.12.18 23:53:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Logistics boats can remote repair at >70km, why should ECM boats be limited to less range?
150km is minimum warp-to range, so the further away the ECM is, the easier it is to intercept and destroy, surely?
You can't warp to someone who's not in your gang
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249km locking? |
Jhagiti Tyran
Mortis Angelus
The Church.
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Posted - 2008.12.18 23:53:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
I can see I have a bit of messing about to do with my Blackbird to get up to speed on just how strong ECM actually is.
With skills and some cheap rigs you can get a Blackbird to jam out to just under 150km.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.12.18 23:59:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Mara Rinn on 19/12/2008 00:01:23
Originally by: James Lyrus
You can't warp to someone who's not in your gang
Ah, that makes things a little more interesting doesn't it :\
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Suitonia
Gallente
interimo
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Posted - 2008.12.19 00:10:00 -
[12]
The thing that makes people whine about the Falcon is that its a powerful force multiplier like the Blackbird / Rook. However unlike the Blackbird and to a lesser degree the Rook, it's hardly a 'vulnerable' ship like them. As stuart pointed out, a Falcon pilot who knows what he is doing can be extremally hard to catch (Particulary in small gangs where long range counters like snipers arn't very viable or common, and not as many people can afford to fit ECCM because they need it for tackle and in lowsec where the electronic/fast counters are limited due to sentrys (Dampening ships, inty's/dictors/stealth bombers etc.)
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Stuart Price
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.12.19 00:15:00 -
[13]
Oh, and for lols, here's my version of the Blackbird for those who don't have enough cash/skills for an actual Falcon:
HIGHS:
1 x Improved Cloak II
3 x Assault Missile Launcher II (defenders, faction lights for tacklers)
MEDS:
4 x Racial ECM II
2 x Sensor Booster II (1unscripted, 1 lock range)
LOWS:
2 x Sig Distortion Amp II
RIGS:
1 x Particle Dispersion Projector I <-- needed to make this work, increased ECM optimal
1 x Particle Dispersion Augmentor I <-- optional, stronger jamming
1 x Targeting System Subcontroller I <--optional, faster lock speed
The stats (with my skills and all three rigs):
1. Locks out to 190km
2. Jams out to 181km optimal, 30km falloff
3. Jam strength of 11.2 on racial target, 3.75 on non-racial target
Less effective than a Falcon in nearly all regards (less jammers, less range, slightly weaker strength) but then again, it's FAR cheaper and requires fewer skills.
Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.12.19 00:26:00 -
[14]
Falcon and Rook are about as good at jamming as each other - they can both deploy very nearly the same amount.
Rook comes out slightly ahead due to marginally better resists, and a slightly better sensor suite - more locking range, and sensor strength.
But neither of them are anywhere near tough enough to get close to the fight - an untanked ecm ship dies when something sneezes on it. So the idea is you standoff to 150km or so (150km is optimal, because then you can warp in on the gate/your buddies) and jam from that range.
I mean, your base ECM optimal is like, 168km with racials anyway. At that range, the damage output of the rook is a big fat zero, much like the Falcon.
When you consider that the reason to use the 'non cloaker' recon is that it has more firepower, but that firepower is effectively worthless, it's a no brainer as to why Rooks are disgustingly cheap and everyone flys falcons instead.
Additionally, being able to 'cloak about' makes it really good at being a 'support alt' ship - you can just leave it in space cloaked, warp in on your main at 100, and 'cheat' at an otherwise fair fight. Cloaked mobility means you don't get scouted as easily, and you're pretty safe moving around as well.
A sensor booster to speed up your locking is useful, but not as useful as having another jammer. A jam is per jammer, jam power vs. sensor strength of the target, so a high skilled falcon can get 15 str, which is ... well, pretty much guaranteed jamming against anything HAC sized on down, and pretty good odds vs. a battleship.
A falcon doesn't win a fight on it's own, but it makes a very good second/third ship in a gang as a force multiplier.
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249km locking? |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.12.19 01:38:00 -
[15]
Hrm... is the 60% bonus to webifier range on the Huginn/Rapier per level, or just the fixed role bonus?
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Suitonia
Gallente
interimo
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Posted - 2008.12.19 04:42:00 -
[16]
It's per level. At level IV you have 32km webs, 40km at level V.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.12.19 05:42:00 -
[17]
So is it true to say that compared to other ECM or Force/Combat Recon ships, the Blackbird and its variants have the furthest range for their primary function? Even target painters don't have such large range - the Huginn and Rapier have bonuses to TP effectiveness, not range.
In the meantime, I'll be training to fly one purely for the survivability while still being of great utility!
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Wideen
Warped Mining
Strip Mining Club
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Posted - 2008.12.19 11:18:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Stuart Price
3. Falcon warps as soon as the missiles get close or the initial volley hits. Ships with active jam cycles REMAIN JAMMED. There is no ship in the game that can Alpha a Falcon from 200km.
not to be a smart-ass but a doomsday will do the trick
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
The Firm.
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Posted - 2008.12.19 11:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
So is it true to say that compared to other ECM or Force/Combat Recon ships, the Blackbird and its variants have the furthest range for their primary function? Even target painters don't have such large range - the Huginn and Rapier have bonuses to TP effectiveness, not range.
In the meantime, I'll be training to fly one purely for the survivability while still being of great utility!
Basically, yes.
However, one thing that people sometimes neglect to mention is that in 0.0 at least, a travelling Falcon is rather more vulnerable.
As a Falcon pilot, be prepared to spend a LOT of time making bookmarks.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.12.19 12:01:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Stuart Price
6. Covops gets in position. Stuff warps to covops. Falcon warps before they are able to start locking.
I haven't experimented at all with this, but would it be possible for the covops to decloak, lock and scram the falcon long enough for "stuff" to get a lock and kill?
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Suitonia
Gallente
interimo
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Posted - 2008.12.19 12:09:00 -
[21]
Possibly, providing the Falcon isn't aligned and warps out during your recalibration time. Covert ops have around the same sensor strength as their battleship counterpart, so a Helios/Buzzard with mwd, scram, 3x eccm in the mids could work fairly well.
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McEivalley
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Posted - 2008.12.19 12:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Wideen
Originally by: Stuart Price
3. Falcon warps as soon as the missiles get close or the initial volley hits. Ships with active jam cycles REMAIN JAMMED. There is no ship in the game that can Alpha a Falcon from 200km.
not to be a smart-ass but a doomsday will do the trick
/edit - or a sniper Rokh.
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Soporo
Caldari
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.12.19 12:25:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Stuart Price
Oh, and for lols, here's my version of the Blackbird for those who don't have enough cash/skills for an actual Falcon:
HIGHS:
1 x Improved Cloak II
3 x Assault Missile Launcher II (defenders, faction lights for tacklers)
MEDS:
4 x Racial ECM II
2 x Sensor Booster II (1unscripted, 1 lock range)
LOWS:
2 x Sig Distortion Amp II
RIGS:
1 x Particle Dispersion Projector I <-- needed to make this work, increased ECM optimal
1 x Particle Dispersion Augmentor I <-- optional, stronger jamming
1 x Targeting System Subcontroller I <--optional, faster lock speed
The stats (with my skills and all three rigs):
1. Locks out to 190km
2. Jams out to 181km optimal, 30km falloff
3. Jam strength of 11.2 on racial target, 3.75 on non-racial target
Less effective than a Falcon in nearly all regards (less jammers, less range, slightly weaker strength) but then again, it's FAR cheaper and requires fewer skills.
*Copies fit*.
Yes, the BB is the best t1 cruiser in the game.
But I don't normally use rigs or anything expensive though as I use it mostly for leroy roams. (Or for gangs where I don't know anything about the FC. )
I can buy and fit a billion of em for the cost of a Falcon and still do the job barring any stupidity on my part. FI: I jammed a Falcon the other day and made him cry (I hope he cried), of course the Domi from hell that I was a whole 12k away from mashed me like a bug in about 5 seconds but that was all my fault.
BB owns, but good thing it's cheap.
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Burn Mac
Minmatar
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2008.12.19 14:01:00 -
[24]
ITT: Military Experts
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Janu Hull
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.12.19 15:28:00 -
[25]
Originally by: McEivalley
Originally by: Wideen
Originally by: Stuart Price
3. Falcon warps as soon as the missiles get close or the initial volley hits. Ships with active jam cycles REMAIN JAMMED. There is no ship in the game that can Alpha a Falcon from 200km.
not to be a smart-ass but a doomsday will do the trick
/edit - or a sniper Rokh.
Nope. And believe me, I've tried it. T2 fitted with long range T2 ammo. Three magstabs in the lows with a 194km Optimal range shooting a Falcon at 190km. I got his attention, and scratched his armor on the second volley, but after that, he basically set about shutting me down for the rest of the fight and a second Falcon warped in to take over his job.
In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
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daisy dook
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Posted - 2008.12.19 15:38:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Janu Hull
Originally by: McEivalley
Originally by: Wideen
Originally by: Stuart Price
3. Falcon warps as soon as the missiles get close or the initial volley hits. Ships with active jam cycles REMAIN JAMMED. There is no ship in the game that can Alpha a Falcon from 200km.
not to be a smart-ass but a doomsday will do the trick
/edit - or a sniper Rokh.
Nope. And believe me, I've tried it. T2 fitted with long range T2 ammo. Three magstabs in the lows with a 194km Optimal range shooting a Falcon at 190km. I got his attention, and scratched his armor on the second volley, but after that, he basically set about shutting me down for the rest of the fight and a second Falcon warped in to take over his job.
Then you did your job of taking out the first Falcon...
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Janu Hull
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.12.19 15:50:00 -
[27]
Originally by: daisy dook
Then you did your job of taking out the first Falcon...
Oh, I know. I was only answering about alpha striking them. No one shot boats are they, no matter how paper thin they're tanks are.
In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
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Dasalt Istgut
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Posted - 2008.12.19 16:26:00 -
[28]
Warping cloaked is very, very nice. It makes gate camps trivial to survive and means outside of a very short window your enemy won't know what you're flying if they don't pick you up at the gate when you enter system. People usually confuse "Falcon" with "ECM" though - most of the "Falcon whines" are ECM whines, not falcon whines.
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Wardeneo
DEATHFUNK
Doctrine.
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Posted - 2008.12.19 20:43:00 -
[29]
dont use bb or rook go falcon.. why? cloak + uber jam (same as rook) plus bb is poo - unless u wanta 10 mill ship that with skills annoyes ppl -- other than that get a falcon and annoy ppl more and then cloak/warp when u want to get away
wardeneo
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Wardeneo
DEATHFUNK
Doctrine.
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Posted - 2008.12.19 20:44:00 -
[30]
dont use bb or rook go falcon.. why? cloak + uber jam (same as rook) plus bb is poo - unless u wanta 10 mill ship that with skills annoyes ppl -- other than that get a falcon and annoy ppl more and then cloak/warp when u want to get away
wardeneo
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