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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.12.18 06:38:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Mara Rinn on 18/12/2008 06:45:05
I'm a newb in this Falcon FOTM thing, so apologies if this seems like a troll.
Looking at the Rook vs the Falcon, it seems to me that the Rook is the stronger ship, so the main advantage of the Falcon is that it can use the covops cloak - thus ensuring that your enemy doesn't know that they're about to be jammed.
The Rook has greater range, slightly higher restistances, and has a bonus to missiles to boot!
Or am I totally missing the point, and when people complain about Falcons they really mean "Blackbird and any variant thereof"?
Add to that, my understanding of how jamming works is that it's chance-based, using a ratio of the Blackbird's jamming strength versus your sensor strength, and that this chance is calculated each 10 second cycle? Would this mean that using a sensor booster to reduce your target locking time would be a good idea, so that on the cycles that you aren't jammed, you can actually get off a salvo or two?
Looking forward to being edumicated 
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.18 06:59:00 -
[2]
Falcons (like the Rapier and Arazu) are awesome because the covert ops cloak is an incredibly powerful module.
Jam time is 10 seconds, not 20.
A sensor booster can help you lock faster, but if you're the ECM ship's primary target, you will probably never be getting a cycle where you aren't jammed.
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Hoshi
Eviction.
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Posted - 2008.12.18 07:14:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Jam time is 10 seconds, not 20.
You mean the opposite, it's 20 sec not 10.
And yes it is the cloak that make the ship, you can get into position without being seen. Depending on the situation they might not even know you have any jamming ships at all.
The cloak also allow blink tactics. Uncloak, jam 1-2 cycles and cloak again before your opponent have you locked down, warp to another jam spot and repeat.
The only thing the Rook does better than a Falcon is dps but it's not like the Rook got good dps, it just got better than the falcon. And as it doesn't have any missile range bonuses it needs to be in the thick of it to do that dps. But being in the center of the action in a EW ship generally means a quick death.
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A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
goodby4u
Valor Inc.
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Posted - 2008.12.18 07:26:00 -
[4]
Cov ops cloak is everything, because the ability to cloak in warp means you can arrive and let the people that are suppose to get called primary get called primary(with the drones on them aswell so you dont receive drone aggro)and if the **** hits the fan cloak or warp and cloak in warp.
Whereas the rook would remain uncloaked/use a crappy cloak and its locking time would take a hit.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.12.18 22:58:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Mara Rinn on 18/12/2008 22:58:22
Thanks for the responses!
Correct me if I'm wrong - but you can't cloak once you've been locked by someone, can you? Or is this another piece of magic allowed by the covops cloak?
As for counters, which ships are built for remote ECCM? I know the Gallente and Minmatar logistics cruisers are designed for enhancing tracking through tracking links - is there a similar bonus on some other ship related to remote ECCM?
I can see I have a bit of messing about to do with my Blackbird to get up to speed on just how strong ECM actually is.
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Yoko Lee
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.18 23:05:00 -
[6]
Falcon cloack can jam to 140km easier, dont understand ccp, dont understand optimal ecm, 50km must be enough no?
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.12.18 23:18:00 -
[7]
Logistics boats can remote repair at >70km, why should ECM boats be limited to less range?
150km is minimum warp-to range, so the further away the ECM is, the easier it is to intercept and destroy, surely?
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Stuart Price
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.12.18 23:52:00 -
[8]
A well prepared, alert and competent Falcon pilot is unkillable.
1. Falcon uncloaks 200km or so from the fight and begins jamming.
2. Someone shoots at the Falcon from that range (sniper ships, Anti-Falcon Cerb etc), assuming Falcon has not re-cloaked while waiting for module cooldown or event that someone CAN shoot that far.
3. Falcon warps as soon as the missiles get close or the initial volley hits. Ships with active jam cycles REMAIN JAMMED. There is no ship in the game that can Alpha a Falcon from 200km.
4. Falcon has now moved to a secondary jampoint and resumes jamming.
5. Interceptor moves to tackle Falcon. It either lock out the 'ceptor (which is trivial to a Falcon) or moves position.
6. Covops gets in position. Stuff warps to covops. Falcon warps before they are able to start locking.
7. Pilgrim uncloaks next to Falcon. Falcon warps before sensor recalibration is finished.
8. If Falcon needs to leave the field permanently (all jamspots compromised, rest of fleet dead, extremely effective sniper fire etc) it does so with ease then cloaks up and hides.
The only way a Falcon dies is when the pilot makes a mistake and someone is in a position to take advantage of it. This, in combination with their extreme influence on a fight of nearly any size makes them VERY popular and incredibly useful. This is why there are so many of them about.
Blackbirds are easily destroyed by unjammed targets (and will be primary in any case. I don't think any ship in the entire game would be primaried over a Blackbird) and Rooks are similarly at a disadvantage in that they can't fit a covops cloak.
The big advantage of a Blackbird however, is its cheap. Losing one barely dents the average players wallet, whereas losing a Falcon or Rook most certainly would. Reconciling this with the incredible survival rate of the Falcon means most players use Falcon for their ECM needs when they can afford/fly one.
Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.12.18 23:53:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Logistics boats can remote repair at >70km, why should ECM boats be limited to less range?
150km is minimum warp-to range, so the further away the ECM is, the easier it is to intercept and destroy, surely?
You can't warp to someone who's not in your gang
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249km locking? |
Jhagiti Tyran
Mortis Angelus
The Church.
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Posted - 2008.12.18 23:53:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
I can see I have a bit of messing about to do with my Blackbird to get up to speed on just how strong ECM actually is.
With skills and some cheap rigs you can get a Blackbird to jam out to just under 150km.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.12.18 23:59:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Mara Rinn on 19/12/2008 00:01:23
Originally by: James Lyrus
You can't warp to someone who's not in your gang
Ah, that makes things a little more interesting doesn't it :\
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Suitonia
Gallente
interimo
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Posted - 2008.12.19 00:10:00 -
[12]
The thing that makes people whine about the Falcon is that its a powerful force multiplier like the Blackbird / Rook. However unlike the Blackbird and to a lesser degree the Rook, it's hardly a 'vulnerable' ship like them. As stuart pointed out, a Falcon pilot who knows what he is doing can be extremally hard to catch (Particulary in small gangs where long range counters like snipers arn't very viable or common, and not as many people can afford to fit ECCM because they need it for tackle and in lowsec where the electronic/fast counters are limited due to sentrys (Dampening ships, inty's/dictors/stealth bombers etc.)
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Stuart Price
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.12.19 00:15:00 -
[13]
Oh, and for lols, here's my version of the Blackbird for those who don't have enough cash/skills for an actual Falcon:
HIGHS:
1 x Improved Cloak II
3 x Assault Missile Launcher II (defenders, faction lights for tacklers)
MEDS:
4 x Racial ECM II
2 x Sensor Booster II (1unscripted, 1 lock range)
LOWS:
2 x Sig Distortion Amp II
RIGS:
1 x Particle Dispersion Projector I <-- needed to make this work, increased ECM optimal
1 x Particle Dispersion Augmentor I <-- optional, stronger jamming
1 x Targeting System Subcontroller I <--optional, faster lock speed
The stats (with my skills and all three rigs):
1. Locks out to 190km
2. Jams out to 181km optimal, 30km falloff
3. Jam strength of 11.2 on racial target, 3.75 on non-racial target
Less effective than a Falcon in nearly all regards (less jammers, less range, slightly weaker strength) but then again, it's FAR cheaper and requires fewer skills.
Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.12.19 00:26:00 -
[14]
Falcon and Rook are about as good at jamming as each other - they can both deploy very nearly the same amount.
Rook comes out slightly ahead due to marginally better resists, and a slightly better sensor suite - more locking range, and sensor strength.
But neither of them are anywhere near tough enough to get close to the fight - an untanked ecm ship dies when something sneezes on it. So the idea is you standoff to 150km or so (150km is optimal, because then you can warp in on the gate/your buddies) and jam from that range.
I mean, your base ECM optimal is like, 168km with racials anyway. At that range, the damage output of the rook is a big fat zero, much like the Falcon.
When you consider that the reason to use the 'non cloaker' recon is that it has more firepower, but that firepower is effectively worthless, it's a no brainer as to why Rooks are disgustingly cheap and everyone flys falcons instead.
Additionally, being able to 'cloak about' makes it really good at being a 'support alt' ship - you can just leave it in space cloaked, warp in on your main at 100, and 'cheat' at an otherwise fair fight. Cloaked mobility means you don't get scouted as easily, and you're pretty safe moving around as well.
A sensor booster to speed up your locking is useful, but not as useful as having another jammer. A jam is per jammer, jam power vs. sensor strength of the target, so a high skilled falcon can get 15 str, which is ... well, pretty much guaranteed jamming against anything HAC sized on down, and pretty good odds vs. a battleship.
A falcon doesn't win a fight on it's own, but it makes a very good second/third ship in a gang as a force multiplier.
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249km locking? |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.12.19 01:38:00 -
[15]
Hrm... is the 60% bonus to webifier range on the Huginn/Rapier per level, or just the fixed role bonus?
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Suitonia
Gallente
interimo
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Posted - 2008.12.19 04:42:00 -
[16]
It's per level. At level IV you have 32km webs, 40km at level V.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.12.19 05:42:00 -
[17]
So is it true to say that compared to other ECM or Force/Combat Recon ships, the Blackbird and its variants have the furthest range for their primary function? Even target painters don't have such large range - the Huginn and Rapier have bonuses to TP effectiveness, not range.
In the meantime, I'll be training to fly one purely for the survivability while still being of great utility!
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Wideen
Warped Mining
Strip Mining Club
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Posted - 2008.12.19 11:18:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Stuart Price
3. Falcon warps as soon as the missiles get close or the initial volley hits. Ships with active jam cycles REMAIN JAMMED. There is no ship in the game that can Alpha a Falcon from 200km.
not to be a smart-ass but a doomsday will do the trick
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
The Firm.
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Posted - 2008.12.19 11:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
So is it true to say that compared to other ECM or Force/Combat Recon ships, the Blackbird and its variants have the furthest range for their primary function? Even target painters don't have such large range - the Huginn and Rapier have bonuses to TP effectiveness, not range.
In the meantime, I'll be training to fly one purely for the survivability while still being of great utility!
Basically, yes.
However, one thing that people sometimes neglect to mention is that in 0.0 at least, a travelling Falcon is rather more vulnerable.
As a Falcon pilot, be prepared to spend a LOT of time making bookmarks.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.12.19 12:01:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Stuart Price
6. Covops gets in position. Stuff warps to covops. Falcon warps before they are able to start locking.
I haven't experimented at all with this, but would it be possible for the covops to decloak, lock and scram the falcon long enough for "stuff" to get a lock and kill?
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Suitonia
Gallente
interimo
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Posted - 2008.12.19 12:09:00 -
[21]
Possibly, providing the Falcon isn't aligned and warps out during your recalibration time. Covert ops have around the same sensor strength as their battleship counterpart, so a Helios/Buzzard with mwd, scram, 3x eccm in the mids could work fairly well.
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McEivalley
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Posted - 2008.12.19 12:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Wideen
Originally by: Stuart Price
3. Falcon warps as soon as the missiles get close or the initial volley hits. Ships with active jam cycles REMAIN JAMMED. There is no ship in the game that can Alpha a Falcon from 200km.
not to be a smart-ass but a doomsday will do the trick
/edit - or a sniper Rokh.
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Soporo
Caldari
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.12.19 12:25:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Stuart Price
Oh, and for lols, here's my version of the Blackbird for those who don't have enough cash/skills for an actual Falcon:
HIGHS:
1 x Improved Cloak II
3 x Assault Missile Launcher II (defenders, faction lights for tacklers)
MEDS:
4 x Racial ECM II
2 x Sensor Booster II (1unscripted, 1 lock range)
LOWS:
2 x Sig Distortion Amp II
RIGS:
1 x Particle Dispersion Projector I <-- needed to make this work, increased ECM optimal
1 x Particle Dispersion Augmentor I <-- optional, stronger jamming
1 x Targeting System Subcontroller I <--optional, faster lock speed
The stats (with my skills and all three rigs):
1. Locks out to 190km
2. Jams out to 181km optimal, 30km falloff
3. Jam strength of 11.2 on racial target, 3.75 on non-racial target
Less effective than a Falcon in nearly all regards (less jammers, less range, slightly weaker strength) but then again, it's FAR cheaper and requires fewer skills.
*Copies fit*.
Yes, the BB is the best t1 cruiser in the game.
But I don't normally use rigs or anything expensive though as I use it mostly for leroy roams. (Or for gangs where I don't know anything about the FC. )
I can buy and fit a billion of em for the cost of a Falcon and still do the job barring any stupidity on my part. FI: I jammed a Falcon the other day and made him cry (I hope he cried), of course the Domi from hell that I was a whole 12k away from mashed me like a bug in about 5 seconds but that was all my fault.
BB owns, but good thing it's cheap.
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Burn Mac
Minmatar
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2008.12.19 14:01:00 -
[24]
ITT: Military Experts
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Janu Hull
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.12.19 15:28:00 -
[25]
Originally by: McEivalley
Originally by: Wideen
Originally by: Stuart Price
3. Falcon warps as soon as the missiles get close or the initial volley hits. Ships with active jam cycles REMAIN JAMMED. There is no ship in the game that can Alpha a Falcon from 200km.
not to be a smart-ass but a doomsday will do the trick
/edit - or a sniper Rokh.
Nope. And believe me, I've tried it. T2 fitted with long range T2 ammo. Three magstabs in the lows with a 194km Optimal range shooting a Falcon at 190km. I got his attention, and scratched his armor on the second volley, but after that, he basically set about shutting me down for the rest of the fight and a second Falcon warped in to take over his job.
In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
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daisy dook
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Posted - 2008.12.19 15:38:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Janu Hull
Originally by: McEivalley
Originally by: Wideen
Originally by: Stuart Price
3. Falcon warps as soon as the missiles get close or the initial volley hits. Ships with active jam cycles REMAIN JAMMED. There is no ship in the game that can Alpha a Falcon from 200km.
not to be a smart-ass but a doomsday will do the trick
/edit - or a sniper Rokh.
Nope. And believe me, I've tried it. T2 fitted with long range T2 ammo. Three magstabs in the lows with a 194km Optimal range shooting a Falcon at 190km. I got his attention, and scratched his armor on the second volley, but after that, he basically set about shutting me down for the rest of the fight and a second Falcon warped in to take over his job.
Then you did your job of taking out the first Falcon...
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Janu Hull
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.12.19 15:50:00 -
[27]
Originally by: daisy dook
Then you did your job of taking out the first Falcon...
Oh, I know. I was only answering about alpha striking them. No one shot boats are they, no matter how paper thin they're tanks are.
In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
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Dasalt Istgut
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Posted - 2008.12.19 16:26:00 -
[28]
Warping cloaked is very, very nice. It makes gate camps trivial to survive and means outside of a very short window your enemy won't know what you're flying if they don't pick you up at the gate when you enter system. People usually confuse "Falcon" with "ECM" though - most of the "Falcon whines" are ECM whines, not falcon whines.
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Wardeneo
DEATHFUNK
Doctrine.
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Posted - 2008.12.19 20:43:00 -
[29]
dont use bb or rook go falcon.. why? cloak + uber jam (same as rook) plus bb is poo - unless u wanta 10 mill ship that with skills annoyes ppl -- other than that get a falcon and annoy ppl more and then cloak/warp when u want to get away
wardeneo
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Wardeneo
DEATHFUNK
Doctrine.
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Posted - 2008.12.19 20:44:00 -
[30]
dont use bb or rook go falcon.. why? cloak + uber jam (same as rook) plus bb is poo - unless u wanta 10 mill ship that with skills annoyes ppl -- other than that get a falcon and annoy ppl more and then cloak/warp when u want to get away
wardeneo
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.12.19 22:44:00 -
[31]
I find it odd that people talk badly about the Blackbird. Yes, it's less effecient than the Falcon. Yes it has a lower probability of survival. But I will say this - find me a cruiser that offers better gang support for under 7 million isk (fitted) and I'll give you. . . I dunno - gratitude or something.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.12.20 08:56:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Dasalt Istgut
People usually confuse "Falcon" with "ECM" though - most of the "Falcon whines" are ECM whines, not falcon whines.
As part of my self-training, I got my Blackbird kitted out with various race ECM. 2 each of Magnetometric (funky teal colour matches the Dominix), Gravimetric (steel blue matches the Rokh) and White Noise (golden colour matches Amarr prediliction for shiny boats).
Turns out with my poor ECM skills (I can just use ECM modules), I can keep the Domi locked for four cycles out of five using two Magnetometric modules. With one, my Dominix alt was able to chew me to pieces. Oh - my Dominix alt has very few skills in "target and blow up small ships" - she'd take 15 seconds to lock, get one salvo of railguns off, then get jammed.
So I'm pretty impressed with the power of ECM in terms of removing ships from a fight. Especially considering I had to purposefully move into firing range of my Domi alt so that she could even target me in the first place (doesn't have long range targetting trained).
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2008.12.20 09:08:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Dasalt Istgut
People usually confuse "Falcon" with "ECM" though - most of the "Falcon whines" are ECM whines, not falcon whines.
Well, that's probably because the only thing a falcon does/can do is deploy ECM, and thanks to its tactical advantages, its by far the best ECM platform in game.
ECM being what it is, most people just go RRRAAAAGGGEEEE!
This is obviously an inefficient way of solving the issue, the way to solve it is take all the falcon pilots, line them up, and stave all their heads in with lead pipes. Then you set them on fire.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2008.12.20 11:07:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
So I'm pretty impressed with the power of ECM in terms of removing ships from a fight. Especially considering I had to purposefully move into firing range of my Domi alt so that she could even target me in the first place (doesn't have long range targetting trained).
Next time, fit three Drone Link Augmentors, 2-3x Omnidirectionals on your Domi, release Wardens, then wait for the next jam cycle to start.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.12.21 21:35:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Qui Shon
Next time, fit three Drone Link Augmentors, 2-3x Omnidirectionals on your Domi, release Wardens, then wait for the next jam cycle to start.
Will the drones actually end up attacking stuff that I can't target? The Dominix has a 70-ish km max targetting range. If I fit Omnis I won't be able to fit sensor boosters!
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Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.12.21 22:06:00 -
[36]
Its more ECM whines then anything. Most fights you can predict what ships you'll fight and fit accordingly. There is nothing new to CC whines in team based PvP games. What completely rages people though is the fact its pretty easy to use a falcon as a alt to turn small scale fights. I would be extremely disappointed to see ships nerfed based of dual accounts.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.12.22 02:38:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Corstaad
Its more ECM whines then anything.
In this thread, I'm asking about the advantages of the T2 Blackbird variants over each other and the T1 Blackbird. I already know that there's a lot of ECM whining going on, what I'm trying to do is learn about how the Blackbird actually works in fights, and what I can do to counter it.
What can I do to use each type of ECM boat more effectively? What can I do to counter an ECM boat?
I'll be playing about with my Blackbird for a while (until I've got Electronics Upgrades 5 at least). Perhaps I'll play with a Falcon at some time, after I actually know how to fly an ECM boat at all.
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Noisrevbus
Caldari
Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2008.12.22 05:38:00 -
[38]
A Falcon is a good ship, but also an incredibly narrow and boring ship.
I fully support suggestions along the line of range-reduction to 50km, as long as that is coupled with the added advantages other Recons possess.
- Effective ECM with 2-3 modules, rather than 4-6 (scripted, no racials).
- A secondary EWar bonus (Burst-ECM range and cap cost?).
- ECM being on a separate slot-level than it's racial tank (high slot?).
- Being given a Drone bay, and with that the ability to switch in decent damage.
Having a Falcon that can find a good balance between jam and tanking cycle failures, while staying within effective weapon engagement-range sounds like alot more fun than sitting 200km away and do nothing but jam and cloak, or stay cloaked 75% of the fights while you slowboat out of range, and then have to go back, or go far enough to warp.
The largest problem most people don't get about ECM is that all those ships do is ECM. I can understand it frustrates people when it does it's ECM well, but without that the entire ship, or class of ships is completely useless (Rooks were hovering around 30m just a patch or two ago because of that). I welcome anyone who come up with an idea that can change ECM and keep the ships viable. Saying they make good throw-away ships because they force-multiply is not good enough for me.
I'd love to have a 'Curse that ECM' in the Rook - but it is noway near a Curse when fighting in the engagement-range of it's bonused weapon system. I'd love a ship like that for Caldari, and i'd love to see it fight at 50km, instead of 150km. But If you put an ECM ship at 50km today, it's most likely the worst Recon. Well, i've brought up this argument before and it hasn't really caught any attention - but i'm keeping my hopes up that enough people will notice one day, to actually get some proper comments on it.
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2008.12.22 05:55:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Noisrevbus
A Falcon is a good ship, but also an incredibly narrow and boring ship.
I fully support suggestions along the line of range-reduction to 50km, as long as that is coupled with the added advantages other Recons possess.
- Effective ECM with 2-3 modules, rather than 4-6 (scripted, no racials).
- A secondary EWar bonus (Burst-ECM range and cap cost?).
- ECM being on a separate slot-level than it's racial tank (high slot?).
- Being given a Drone bay, and with that the ability to switch in decent damage.
Having a Falcon that can find a good balance between jam and tanking cycle failures, while staying within effective weapon engagement-range sounds like alot more fun than sitting 200km away and do nothing but jam and cloak, or stay cloaked 75% of the fights while you slowboat out of range, and then have to go back, or go far enough to warp.
The largest problem most people don't get about ECM is that all those ships do is ECM. I can understand it frustrates people when it does it's ECM well, but without that the entire ship, or class of ships is completely useless (Rooks were hovering around 30m just a patch or two ago because of that). I welcome anyone who come up with an idea that can change ECM and keep the ships viable. Saying they make good throw-away ships because they force-multiply is not good enough for me.
I'd love to have a 'Curse that ECM' in the Rook - but it is noway near a Curse when fighting in the engagement-range of it's bonused weapon system. I'd love a ship like that for Caldari, and i'd love to see it fight at 50km, instead of 150km. But If you put an ECM ship at 50km today, it's most likely the worst Recon. Well, i've brought up this argument before and it hasn't really caught any attention - but i'm keeping my hopes up that enough people will notice one day, to actually get some proper comments on it.
I'd happily see falcons re-worked along these lines. I think that most of the pro-falcon guys would hate you forever.
The thing is that the falcon acutally does have the same level of tank as the other cloakers, even when fit with ECM. None of them have any ability to take damage post-nanonerf. Its a sad truth, but the falcon is on a knife edge. It either has to be near impossible to kill, or its not worth flying.
The sad truth of eve is that people will flock to the ships that give them the best chances of survival.
Remember back when nano-domis and phoons ruled the waves? They were far from the most dangerous ships out there, but they were next to impossible to kill. Same for nano-cruisers, and now the same for falcons. People don't want to die and will ***** and moan if their win-button gets kicked down to 'not AS good'
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.12.22 06:15:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
What can I do to use each type of ECM boat more effectively? What can I do to counter an ECM boat?
Well, you can shoot it - that is after all the counter to any ship. You can also whine on forums and hope the developers take pity on you and nerf it.
But, I'll assume your request for information was made in an earnest attempt to glean some kind of information rather than just a troll post.
Any time you are building a ship for a job, you need to understand the criteria and what sort of target set you're looking at. There are two important criteria that an anti-ecm boat must have - first it needs to be able to deliver damage out to ECM operating ranges (natively that's anywhere from 45km - 160 km, though it can certainly be bosted and tends to be at the upper end of the spectrum). Second, the ship must have a high native sensor strength, because it can be better insulated against ECM in the process.
While there are many ships for the job, the most obvious candidate is the Raven - cruise missiles deal tremendous alpha strikes against cruiser sized targets (especially when they're station as ECM ships tend to be), and cruise missiles can reach out to the maximum lock range rather easily. The high base sensor strength of 24 means that ECCM is particularly effective on the ship.
Using a combination of sensor boosters, ECCM and armor tanking modules, you can custom build a ship that can be terrifyingly effective at denying enemy ECM ships their place on the field. Sure, its not likley to kill the falcon but a falcon not on the field is a falcon not jamming. And if the pilot doesn't warp out when the first volley of missiles strips the shield and takes off a few chunks of armor for good measure the second volley will certainly help illustrate their folly). What's more, an Armor tanked raven can actually generate a surprisingly sturdy tank - just take a look at this entry:
[Raven, Anti-ECM]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Sensor Booster II
Sensor Booster II
ECCM - Gravimetric II
ECCM - Gravimetric II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II
ECCM - Gravimetric II
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
The only expensive part is the Trimark's that can handily be swapped in favor of missile velocity rigs (gets that strike there quicker - and if you strip the shield from a falcon the pilot almost certainly is going to be hesitant to retake the field.) Just as important is the sensor strength of 122 (without overheating) or a temporary 177. This means even a max skilled falcon fully kitted for jam strength has at best a slightly greater than 10% chance to get a jam.
The best case scenario is you drive the ECM ship from the field. The worst case is you soak up a tremendous amount of ECM leaving more of your gang mates free to kick in heads.
There are of course many other ships that can be so designed to counter the falcon. Just remember - ECM ships are specialist ships from the ground up. Don't expect immunity by fitting a module or two. You either deal with being jammed or you build an equally specilized ship to take them down (or whine about there being no effective counters on a forum)
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Mei Ree
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Posted - 2008.12.23 12:03:00 -
[41]
Hrm... low/high slot items to boost targetting range? One huge advantage of the Falcon over the Blackbird is 120km targetting range over 75km. Yikes. I have long range targetting, so I get a 25% boost on top of that. But 125% of 75km is not as good as 100% of 120 km!
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2008.12.29 06:22:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
[Raven, Anti-ECM]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Sensor Booster II
Sensor Booster II
ECCM - Gravimetric II
ECCM - Gravimetric II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II
ECCM - Gravimetric II
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Paradise Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
Trimark Armor Pump I
What about replacing one of the armour platings with a Magnetometric backup sensor, and having a logistics boat boost you with projected ECCM? Would that significantly reduce the odds of being jammed?
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MukkBarovian
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Posted - 2008.12.29 08:41:00 -
[43]
Thats a decent Raven fit and it should do the job of controlling enemy falcons. But **** that. If I want to roam in a 3 man gang with some fast manueverable ships or go do some solo work I dont want to haul a ****ing plated battleship around to counter something that ****s my entire playstyle. I'm either going to do my absolute best to avoid a gang that has a falcon, or Im going to bring my own. The added benefit of having brought my own falcon along means that if we jamn the enemy falcon we disable its defenses and we might be able to kill it.
Again hauling around a plated bs in 0.0 stinks. Hauling around a falcon means we have a scout thats pretty hard to kill.
Falcons are balanced for gangs of 10+ maybe. All other ewar ships have vulnerabilities that make them balanced. For small gangs falcons are overpowered. The only useful counter is to bring another falcon. The last kind of ship where that was required was the nanoship. And now my 5.4K overheated cyclone goes 2.7K and its balanced. It sucks balls. BTW nanoships used to counter falcons...
If you want to counter a falcon bring a good falcon pilot along with you. I'm whining right now but honestly the best way to counter ewar(specifically falcons) is to bring along more or at least as much of your own. Just like it used to be that the best way to counter nanoships was to bring along one of your own, and stick a web on it.
Personally I beleive that when and if ccp does something about falcons the game will be almost balanced appart from some things noone cares about like minmatar caps sucking ass.
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