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why PLEX key can't be moved from station? (rant warning)

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Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:10:00 - [1] CCP made new feature that lets people convert GTC into game item that can be traded on station markets. But for some odd reason, they went the extra step to make sure that people didn't undock with them. Why? To me this is just one more little factoid that shows how CCP is afraid to be hardcore, they want to make the game more soft and cudly just like WoW. There's absolutely nothing wrong with letting people risk transporting that stuff, and it would make piracy more worthwhile. All the hardcore game features were put in place by the original devs, 2003-2005, all the new features seem to either nerf the old hardcore elements or just standard mainstream stuff. This by itself isn't that important, but it is an example of a whole pattern of game changes. It frustrates me. Thanks for reading. Your time will not be reimbursed.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:11:00 - [2] You can just buy a 300m module and throw it in your cargohold and be as "hardcore" as you want to be. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:13:00 - [3] I'm sure the only reason I can still do that is cause that game feature was also implemented by the original devs, not these new WoW types but maybe the nerf is on their todo list
Htrag The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:14:00 - [4] without really knowing their reasons, I'd have to agree. I'd love to blow up a ship and have one of them drop. However, it may be some legal technicality regarding a real money item.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:16:00 - [5] Can you imagine the whines on the forum? "I got my ship blown up and now I'm out $200 in GTC" ? __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:16:00 - [6] There's no legal issue, just as losing your ship with mods that costs 300 mil doesn't mean CCP owes you 15 dollars
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:19:00 - [7] Originally by: Terianna Eri Can you imagine the whines on the forum? "I got my ship blown up and now I'm out $200 in GTC" ? no different than any other gank of expensive ship. Using the current PLEX prices, there's more than 10,000 dollars worth of stuff destroyed every day
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:21:00 - [8] Originally by: Htrag However, it may be some legal technicality regarding a real money item. And that is most likely the case. No other item in your cargo bay is directly asociated with your rl money like a plex card so its probably some legal mumbo jumbo. Also it would make tranferring isk from illegal isk sellers to a buyer very hard to trace. Isk sellers have tons of isk so they buy gtc off the market and then give out the plex cards by jetcan or some other method to the buyer and he buyer then converts back to isk. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:24:00 - [9] There can't be a legal issue with proper EULA statements. Entropia does it already, it's virtual economy is directly tied to real money
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:28:00 - [10] Then is most likely to keep isk sellers from laundering thier isk. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:30:00 - [11] Legal issues aside, the majority of the players see the plex item as something that is worth actual money. Subjecting them to the same scale of loss and scams will provide CCP with more work* than the bit of code that keeps them locked in stations. It also protects people that don't or should know better from themselves. Personally, I'd have kept the GTC's out of the game entirely and added the 30 day split on the website part of the GTC trade. * Petitions. Emo posts on this and other forums. Bad publicity due to (mis)information. Etc. Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:30:00 - [12] Originally by: Ephemeron There can't be a legal issue with proper EULA statements. Entropia does it already, it's virtual economy is directly tied to real money As soon as the property of someone else gets involved (money) the EULA becomes very disputable and would most likely get thrown out of the window in the face of real laws and judicial precedences. CCP knows that the EULA would not protect them. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:32:00 - [13] ok, can you explain how Entropia handles this from legal perspective? What can they do that EVE can't?
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:33:00 - [14] Originally by: Ephemeron All the hardcore game features were put in place by the original devs, 2003-2005, all the new features seem to either nerf the old hardcore elements or just standard mainstream stuff. You mean features like gate guns, concord buffs, insurance, cloaking and emergency warping? Sounds real hardcore back then -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:33:00 - [15] Why the hell would anyone in their right mind WANT to put that kind of real-life value of money on the line? - Captain Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:35:00 - [16] defensive buffs were necessary as ships got much more powerful. You could kill people a lot more easily back then than you can now. Now people have insta-warping covert ops transports, jump freighters, and jump bridges to avoid the risk of 0.0 travel.
Raynge The Storm Knights The Cool Kids Club	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:36:00 - [17] Originally by: Stitcher Why the hell would anyone in their right mind WANT to put that kind of real-life value of money on the line? to be hardcore, weren't you paying attention \o/
Rexthor Hammerfists Rage of Inferno Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:38:00 - [18] Originally by: Stitcher Why the hell would anyone in their right mind WANT to put that kind of real-life value of money on the line? You see killmails with billions in cargos of t1 haulers and stuff often enough. It wouldnt surprise me one bit if plexes start dropping would this be possible. - Boosters and PirateProfessions
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:38:00 - [19] Originally by: Stitcher Why the hell would anyone in their right mind WANT to put that kind of real-life value of money on the line? Plenty of people would, some because they are dumb, others because they are smart and know what they are doing. Your typical mothership pilot puts $1000 USD on the line in combat titan pilots can have $10,000 worth of stuff on the line
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:47:00 - [20] Originally by: Ephemeron defensive buffs were necessary as ships got much more powerful. You could kill people a lot more easily back then than you can now. Now people have insta-warping covert ops transports, jump freighters, and jump bridges to avoid the risk of 0.0 travel. Ok I'll agree with this. POS logistics was needlessly hard before but making them defendable by a deathstar POS was just not the way to go imo. Hey man, help me troll the carebear dorks on the forums and the ones that got into the CSM if you want to help make things more hardcore. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
PeachesAndCream	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:54:00 - [21] EVE isn't Entropia, and all virtual "assets" in this game are effectively 100% CCP property and not for sale. For that line of comparison to work, CCP would have to: begin selling virtual assets, establish a cash value on said assets, and protect consumers from scams. You used that "300mil=$15" analogy, and it fails completely because it violates the EULA to do such transactions, making your reference to it as a legitimizer for the proposed change completely hysterical. And unlike virtual assets being sold in crappy MMOs nobody's ever heard of, GTCs represent the purchase of a real life service. REAL. LIFE. SERVICE. Not a pixellated tutu for your cyber kitty. There is nothing virtual about it, even if the transaction takes place within the game environment. And arguably the forums were already a small part of the game environment to begin with. Besides, you can write what you want in an EULA, but EULAs are not a seriously upheld document in court, and it's almost certainly going to fail in a battle against consumer protection laws. So yes, its a legal issue. Your gameplay considerations are completely voided by that fact. I'm all for griefing carebears and kicking babies in the face, but this is just plain stupid.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.12.21 01:55:00 - [22] Originally by: Ephemeron But for some odd reason, they went the extra step to make sure that people didn't undock with them. Because you can use them from anywhere in the galaxy, so theoretically you shouldn't have a real need to move them _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.21 02:00:00 - [23] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Ephemeron But for some odd reason, they went the extra step to make sure that people didn't undock with them. Because you can use them from anywhere in the galaxy, so theoretically you shouldn't have a real need to move them ah, well, that just shows yet another extra carebear design feature
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.21 02:05:00 - [24] Originally by: PeachesAndCream EVE isn't Entropia, and all virtual "assets" in this game are effectively 100% CCP property and not for sale. For that line of comparison to work, CCP would have to: begin selling virtual assets, establish a cash value on said assets, and protect consumers from scams. You used that "300mil=$15" analogy, and it fails completely because it violates the EULA to do such transactions, making your reference to it as a legitimizer for the proposed change completely hysterical. And unlike virtual assets being sold in crappy MMOs nobody's ever heard of, GTCs represent the purchase of a real life service. REAL. LIFE. SERVICE. Not a pixellated tutu for your cyber kitty. There is nothing virtual about it, even if the transaction takes place within the game environment. And arguably the forums were already a small part of the game environment to begin with. Besides, you can write what you want in an EULA, but EULAs are not a seriously upheld document in court, and it's almost certainly going to fail in a battle against consumer protection laws. So yes, its a legal issue. Your gameplay considerations are completely voided by that fact. I'm all for griefing carebears and kicking babies in the face, but this is just plain stupid. Ok that explains some things, but I'm still skeptical that there is no legal way for CCP to protect itself from lawsuit over a lost game item. Legal system can't be that ridiculous. There is a point, that consumer willingly has to cross, that he assumes personal responsibility for his actions. You can't simply blame everyone but yourself for every bad thing that happens to you. Are there any real lawyers here who'd be interested in examining this possibility?
Klandi Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.12.21 02:09:00 - [25] Yep - that one was noticed CCP can sell stuff (as the GTC and virtual items bear witness) and they will cos it is their game - as they can also make up the rules as they go along (and they can cos it is their IP) They can say that YOU can't sell stuff cos it ain't ur game so, subscribe, play the game and stfu Ain't simplistic bootiful
Xipheas Evolving Strategies	Posted - 2008.12.21 02:48:00 - [26] Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Ephemeron But for some odd reason, they went the extra step to make sure that people didn't undock with them. Because you can use them from anywhere in the galaxy, so theoretically you shouldn't have a real need to move them ah, well, that just shows yet another extra carebear design feature Whut? How does that make any sense? I pay my EVE-O subscription in the UK, does that mean I should have to fly back there to log in? Or, mobile roaming shouldn't work? Or I shouldn't be able to get money out of a Spanish ATM because I should have been hardcore enough to bring two months worth of funds in cash in my back pocket? How is that a carebear thing? There is no need to move a plex, there is no need for people to be able to undock with them, there is no need for this thread. Move along.
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.12.21 02:50:00 - [27] CCP have offices in the USA...and China... both countries have cases of dispute against the EULA where the EULA lost... That aside, PLEX have RL value.... all other items in game do not... hence CCP have to treat it differently. lest they risk having "offical (implied via common properties) RMT"... and worst, lawsuits coming down in forms of very annoying paperwork which sucks away moneyz from CCP to CCP legal department. Rant about how carebear it is you want, but CCP is a company, and they dont want to acknowleadge RMT. and avoid all positive dirty laws mumbo thats different from country to country. (this is a reason why some MMO publisher changes from region to region...to deal with local laws...) hence yeah....care bear..? perhaps... but it saves CCP alot of potential, company breaking issues. btw, anyone hear about what happened to the proposal to Tax virtual goods exchanges (though RMT) I know China now offically tax RMT for games... but dont the US is thinking about that too? Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Durethia Black Plague. Kraftwerk.	Posted - 2008.12.21 02:59:00 - [28] Originally by: Ephemeron Legal system can't be that ridiculous. You know, in some countries in Europe, it's illegal to deny certain events in history. Regardless of how you feel about history, to say it's illegal to deny what you think is fact is absolutely absurd; logically, the only reason one might make such a thing illegal is if there's significant reason and evidence to believe the contrary. Seriously, there's no more blatant a way to scream "I'm WRONG!" than to make it illegal to argue it. That's today. Now, through history, there's many ridiculous things throughout the legal system. In America, look no further than the McCarthy hearings, Salem witch-trials... In many areas of Africa, there are still courts who formally base decisions on mysticism and superstition. Who ever came up with "thought crimes" is a complete crack-pot. Want to see awe inspiring Mickey Mouse laws? Look at consumer rights laws. Look at the laws governing insurance. Look at health benefits laws. Look at the Intellectual Property laws (speaking of Mickey Mouse mind you...) Come to California and look at the divorce laws... I'm surprised any California judges are still alive they are so ridiculous.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy	Posted - 2008.12.21 03:05:00 - [29] I just passed a law that made it illegal to spit on tuesdays if the sun is shining the punishment is very harsh, you will be stripped of all worldly possessions and be forced to listen to S-Club 7 for a week straight Fallout thinks im cute! I think so anyway
Cierejai Caldari BlackSite Prophecy	Posted - 2008.12.21 03:09:00 - [30] Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: Stitcher Why the hell would anyone in their right mind WANT to put that kind of real-life value of money on the line? Plenty of people would, some because they are dumb, others because they are smart and know what they are doing. Your typical mothership pilot puts $1000 USD on the line in combat titan pilots can have $10,000 worth of stuff on the line Faulty logic. PLEX costs real life dollars to put one on the market, nothing else does. You get it right?
PeachesAndCream	Posted - 2008.12.21 03:11:00 - [31] Originally by: Ephemeron Ok that explains some things, but I'm still skeptical that there is no legal way for CCP to protect itself from lawsuit over a lost game item. Legal system can't be that ridiculous. There is a point, that consumer willingly has to cross, that he assumes personal responsibility for his actions. You can't simply blame everyone but yourself for every bad thing that happens to you. Are there any real lawyers here who'd be interested in examining this possibility? What part of the legal system do you find ridiculous? Without it, companies, or just about anyone can scam you legally if they put it into an EULA first. It doesn't take a lawyer to understand that, and its part of the reason that EULAs are seldom found binding. The point at which a customer assumes responsibility for his actions, is when he obtains the product or service in question and then does something stupid. This being a service, a customer becomes liable according to the terms of service (TOS). Without even getting the 30 days of game service, how can you pit responsibility on a customer? But with a product, it's anything that would void a warranty. You keep thinking its a product just because its represented virtually ingame. And not just any product, but a virtual one that is obligated to follow game rules. It only has an ingame representation to facilitate the new transfer mechanics (market). That ingame trinket has literally zero gameplay value - it has no use in the game at all. You're essentially arguing that it should become a part of gameplay. Even if you ignored the little problem of legality, it sounds like you want player actions to translate into real life consequences. At that point it stops being a game, and even the most pvp addicted hardc0re no-lifers would still agree that EVE is a game. And I find it amazing you're even arguing this now, considering that GTC shenanigans have been outlawed completely even though regular scams have a green light.
Khemul Zula Amarr Black Plague. Kraftwerk.	Posted - 2008.12.21 03:11:00 - [32] Edited by: Khemul Zula on 21/12/2008 03:12:15 There is a funny thing when it comes to the legal system in general. If you are a corporation, trying to make a profit, it is best not to test the "there is no way we'll be sued for that" theory. Even a completely baseless lawsuit can cost the company money, so most companies are very conservative when it comes to legal matters. Seriously. Look at the small print on advertisements sometime. Some of the most rediculous stuff has a warning basically saying "don't try this at home" just in case someone manages to try it (even if it is physically impossible). ------ I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
Xipheas Evolving Strategies	Posted - 2008.12.21 03:12:00 - [33] Edited by: Xipheas on 21/12/2008 03:12:21 Originally by: Tortun Nahme I just passed a law that made it illegal to spit on tuesdays if the sun is shining the punishment is very harsh, you will be stripped of all worldly possessions and be forced to listen to S-Club 7 for a week straight dude ... my human rights ...
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy	Posted - 2008.12.21 03:14:00 - [34] Originally by: Xipheas Edited by: Xipheas on 21/12/2008 03:12:21 Originally by: Tortun Nahme I just passed a law that made it illegal to spit on tuesdays if the sun is shining the punishment is very harsh, you will be stripped of all worldly possessions and be forced to listen to S-Club 7 for a week straight dude ... my human rights ... my inhumanity does not recognize your human rights Fallout thinks im cute! I think so anyway
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.21 03:31:00 - [35] Originally by: Mika Meroko CCP have offices in the USA...and China... both countries have cases of dispute against the EULA where the EULA lost... That aside, PLEX have RL value.... all other items in game do not... All EVE game items have real life value, which can be relatively accurately measured in US dollars. The EULA tries to assert there there is no real value, but as many point out, EULA isn't taken very seriously in real life. The fact that isk sellers operate and illegally against EULA doesn't make them illegal against real law. And the fact that they do operate, proves without doubt that game items have real value
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.12.21 03:50:00 - [36] It is irrelevant whether or not items in EVE have a RL value. They are all owned by CCP. A GTC however is owned by the player until cashed in. And there is the judicial difference. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.21 03:52:00 - [37] Originally by: Abrazzar It is irrelevant whether or not items in EVE have a RL value. They are all owned by CCP. A GTC however is owned by the player until cashed in. And there is the judicial difference. The player always gets his GTC. But once it is in the hands of the player, CCP's responsibility is over. Now whatever the player does with it is his own responsibility. If he loses it - tough luck
Chomapuraku Caldari Phantasmal Collective Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.21 03:55:00 - [38] who cares? is it really that important to cart it around? if you wanna risk your plex, you can open a trade window with a scammer, put the plex in it, and hold your mouse over the confirm button, if it means that much to you or you can buy a gtc, sell it for isk, buy an officer mod with that isk, and cart it around in your cargohold. or hell, just take a bundle of singles, hang it on a string at the end of a stick and dangle it out the window if you need to risk ****ing away good money so badly
Lillian D'Florite	Posted - 2008.12.21 04:04:00 - [39] Originally by: Ephemeron All EVE game items have real life value, which can be relatively accurately measured in US dollars. The EULA tries to assert there there is no real value, but as many point out, EULA isn't taken very seriously in real life. The fact that isk sellers operate and illegally against EULA doesn't make them illegal against real law. And the fact that they do operate, proves without doubt that game items have real value You just stated the reason why CCP does not want to deal with the funbag that is PLEX. Since people (lawyers/jurdges) can easily argue that it has RL value (which compared to other items, it does). with in game items, CCP can argue that the players do not own it blah blah.... For plex.... even Phoenix Wright cant fight it... If CCP allows something so obvious purchased with real money to be ... yeah.. it can open the door way to lawsuits...
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.12.21 04:07:00 - [40] Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: Abrazzar It is irrelevant whether or not items in EVE have a RL value. They are all owned by CCP. A GTC however is owned by the player until cashed in. And there is the judicial difference. The player always gets his GTC. But once it is in the hands of the player, CCP's responsibility is over. Now whatever the player does with it is his own responsibility. If he loses it - tough luck ... in your world it might work like that... is your opinion.... but yeah, we live in a world where Chainsaws have warning labels to warn people not to stop moving blades with a body part. .... I am sorry to say, that "touch luck" attitude might work well in 3rd world countries... but it just wont stand in the nuthouse that is our court of law... P.S: In Canada, if a burglar comes to your house, you are NOT allowed to hurt him. if you beat him up for robbing your house, he could SUE you AND win... thats how ridiculous court systems are... Dont blame CCP... Blame the sorry excuse of a court system we have in the Western World. Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
m3talc0re X Caldari Heavens Gate Consortium	Posted - 2008.12.21 04:17:00 - [41] Normally I ignore stupid threads like this... But honestly, who the hell whines about something like this? Basically, this is what I get out of the OP's post... Instead of ganking enough people to earn the isk to buy a GTC or PLEX, he would rather have it the easy (carebear?) way of just having to pop one "easy" ship and get his gametime that way. I don't think I'm far off base with this. Secondly, CCP added the PLEX's in game to make it an easier flow to get game time cards in game, without having to leave the game to get 'em. They're "special" items to say the least. They even went as far as to mention that having them in game didn't really go well with the RP perspective of things, but they were added anyway. I don't mean to flame, but damn, lol. -------------------------- Wait, what now? Yes, I was Anubis Assassin, this will be my new main XD
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.21 04:27:00 - [42] yes, I want to pop carebear and get PLEX code. What's wrong with that, seriously? CCP should allow that to happen, game is a sand box. If some carebear wants me to have it, it's his choice, CCP should not make that choice for him
Aeo IV Amarr Xomic OmniCorporation	Posted - 2008.12.21 04:33:00 - [43] Yes, I agree. And when you pop my ship and steal my money? I'm going to have real cops come and arrest you, for stealing. The minute you steal something worth real money, you're committing a real crime, and CCP doesn't want to deal with the issues that will arise from such crimes. So give it a rest.
Spenz Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.12.21 04:43:00 - [44] Originally by: Aeo IV Yes, I agree. And when you pop my ship and steal my money? I'm going to have real cops come and arrest you, for stealing. The minute you steal something worth real money, you're committing a real crime, and CCP doesn't want to deal with the issues that will arise from such crimes. So give it a rest. /thread. A PLEX isn't intellectual property like in-game items are. Like someone said before, it is a real-life service. This is where the realm of fantasy (ooh I get to robz ppl of real moneyz) ends and the cold harsh truths of reality begin (you just stole real money from me, prepare to go to jail). I only had to read the first few lines of the OP and I already knew it would never happen due to legal issues. Like someone said before, if you want to risk real money risk your own using GTC isk to buy officer mods. THAT is actually legal. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.21 05:10:00 - [45] Alright, so explain to me why is it perfectly legal for scammers in Jita to spam WTB contracts with 4 mil isk prices. When somebody thru simple stupidity accepts that contract, PLEX code is transferred and the original owner loses his real money. So far nobody complained about that. Isn't it same thing as transporting PLEX code, then by simple stupidity, losing the ship to another player who takes your PLEX code? In both cases, owner loses PLEX code, somebody else gets it.
Mire Stoude Cash Money Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.21 05:25:00 - [46] I'm no lawyer, but I'm guessing that it has to do with ships getting blown up. If one gets destroyed or lost, the fact that the game card officially represents $14.95 USD and was issued by CCP may mean they would be responsible for replacing the lost time card. Like if you lost a gift certificate from a major credit card company, you could get a replacement (after a typical amount of red tape). They would void out the old one and mail you another with the current balance on it. And I don't think it applies to scamming or market manipulation because the owner gave it away of their own free will (although, manipulated or tricked, it was still their free will).
Chomapuraku Caldari Phantasmal Collective Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.21 05:26:00 - [47] your thread bores me AND NOW IS THE TIME ON SPROCKETS WHEN WE DANCE!! /emote cue goofy german techno
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.12.21 05:41:00 - [48] Originally by: Ephemeron CCP made new feature that lets people convert GTC into game item that can be traded on station markets. But for some odd reason, they went the extra step to make sure that people didn't undock with them. Why? To me this is just one more little factoid that shows how CCP is afraid to be hardcore, they want to make the game more soft and cudly just like WoW. There's absolutely nothing wrong with letting people risk transporting that stuff, and it would make piracy more worthwhile. All the hardcore game features were put in place by the original devs, 2003-2005, all the new features seem to either nerf the old hardcore elements or just standard mainstream stuff. This by itself isn't that important, but it is an example of a whole pattern of game changes. It frustrates me. Thanks for reading. Your time will not be reimbursed. One big reason: you can't do direct trades with characters with a negative bank balance. If you could, you could trade PLEXes to characters with negative balances and pay for their accounts with ISK from other accounts. Not being able to do direct trades hinders this, and if you were able to undock with PLEXes, you'd be able to eject them in space and then apply them to the accounts that are in the negative. Fortunately CCP has left a giant loophole to get around this small point, but that's another thread entirely. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Khemul Zula Amarr Black Plague. Kraftwerk.	Posted - 2008.12.21 05:46:00 - [49] Originally by: Ephemeron Alright, so explain to me why is it perfectly legal for scammers in Jita to spam WTB contracts with 4 mil isk prices. When somebody thru simple stupidity accepts that contract, PLEX code is transferred and the original owner loses his real money. So far nobody complained about that. Isn't it same thing as transporting PLEX code, then by simple stupidity, losing the ship to another player who takes your PLEX code? In both cases, owner loses PLEX code, somebody else gets it. There were a few complaints. Even a few threads where people made sure to confirm it was okay. In essence the person here is simply selling very very low. It isn't really a scam. Happens every day on regular market orders. ------ I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.12.21 05:51:00 - [50] Originally by: Khemul Zula There were a few complaints. Even a few threads where people made sure to confirm it was okay. In essence the person here is simply selling very very low. It isn't really a scam. Happens every day on regular market orders. pretty much this. -when you gank/shoot whatever. you are MAKING them lose it... -contract scam.... they have to do it all by themselves. IE: you gave a girl scout 100 dollars for her cookies since shes soooo cute and manipulated you into giving her the money... vs Said girl scout came at knife point, tied you up to the bed, walk away with your 100 dollar bill and ate the cookies herself. Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Khemul Zula Amarr Black Plague. Kraftwerk.	Posted - 2008.12.21 05:53:00 - [51] Originally by: Mika Meroko Said girl scout came at knife point, tied you up to the bed, walk away with your 100 dollar bill and ate the cookies herself. Why was the girl scout in your bedroom? ------ I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.12.21 06:13:00 - [52] Originally by: Khemul Zula Originally by: Mika Meroko Said girl scout came at knife point, tied you up to the bed, walk away with your 100 dollar bill and ate the cookies herself. Why was the girl scout in your bedroom? I think there's more to that story he's not telling
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.12.21 08:09:00 - [53] If the PLEX got destroyed, it would mean actual game time that someone paid for was removed from the game, and CCP would make more money off someone having to re-buy it again. I can see this wouldn't look good from a PR or legal point of view. Also, once they leave the stations I think it's going to be much much harder to audit who they go to. Trade / Contracts / Market all provide a clear audit trail so that you can see who is giving what RL equivalent money to others (as does 'give money'). While losing something in PvP and having someone else scoop it could provide a less clear audit trail and make it harder for them to issue mass bannings when things like the POS exploit happen.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.21 09:42:00 - [54] Originally by: Ephemeron CCP made new feature that lets people convert GTC into game item that can be traded on station markets. But for some odd reason, they went the extra step to make sure that people didn't undock with them. Why? To me this is just one more little factoid that shows how CCP is afraid to be hardcore, they want to make the game more soft and cudly just like WoW. There's absolutely nothing wrong with letting people risk transporting that stuff, and it would make piracy more worthwhile. All the hardcore game features were put in place by the original devs, 2003-2005, all the new features seem to either nerf the old hardcore elements or just standard mainstream stuff. This by itself isn't that important, but it is an example of a whole pattern of game changes. It frustrates me. Thanks for reading. Your time will not be reimbursed. On the other hand, you can still scam them.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.21 09:53:00 - [55] Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: Khemul Zula Originally by: Mika Meroko Said girl scout came at knife point, tied you up to the bed, walk away with your 100 dollar bill and ate the cookies herself. Why was the girl scout in your bedroom? I think there's more to that story he's not telling Confirming this thread is now about girl scouts and cookies.
Kate Nexus	Posted - 2008.12.21 10:19:00 - [56] How can you fit complexes in stations? They are in deadspace still aren't they.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.12.21 10:27:00 - [57] I love you, Kate Nexus. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2008.12.21 10:52:00 - [58] Originally by: Ephemeron CCP made new feature that lets people convert GTC into game item that can be traded on station markets. But for some odd reason, they went the extra step to make sure that people didn't undock with them. Why? Because you don't need them in-space for any purpose and they can be applied remotely via the assets list. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

Bimjo Caldari Domination. Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2008.12.21 11:03:00 - [59] good god, you are a bunch of moaners, and allowing PLEXes to be moved will just give more ammo to players to moan to CCP about being scammed or losing your PLEX. ====================
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.12.21 11:23:00 - [60] Originally by: CCP Explorer Because you don't need them in-space for any purpose and they can be applied remotely via the assets list. You don't need exotic dancers in-space for any purpose either. You can look at them via the assets list.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.12.21 11:27:00 - [61] Edited by: Vaal Erit on 21/12/2008 11:27:25 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: CCP Explorer Because you don't need them in-space for any purpose and they can be applied remotely via the assets list. You don't need exotic dancers in-space for any purpose either. You can look at them via the assets list. I can think of a few things to do with a bunch of exotic dancers in space...like join the AU-high club. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Estel Arador Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.21 11:28:00 - [62] Originally by: LaVista Vista You don't need exotic dancers in-space for any purpose either. You can look at them via the assets list. You need them to make people laugh at your killmail. FREE! jumpclone service
Buhhdust Princess Lyonesse.	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:06:00 - [63] Actually, letting people undock with the PLEX cards will make the market much more competitive for them. Resulting in more GTC sales and thus more money for CCP. Tbh, it's a good idea to let people undock and trade these PLEXs. -Buhh ________________________________________
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:16:00 - [64] If CCP let us to fly with PLEXes around, forum would be full of "zomg I got podded with 10 plexes onboard, REFUND!11!!!" whines. The fact is, that PLEX doesn't need to leave a station, it can be remotely used from any place in the Eve universe. The only limitation is a less flexible competition, but I guess that is a fair price for all the trouble that losses of RL money items would cause.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:29:00 - [65] Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Ephemeron CCP made new feature that lets people convert GTC into game item that can be traded on station markets. But for some odd reason, they went the extra step to make sure that people didn't undock with them. Why? Because you don't need them in-space for any purpose and they can be applied remotely via the assets list. Man I sure wish I could do that with tritanium. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:46:00 - [66] Why can't the 30 day PLEX key not be moved out of station? Because money laundry would be to easy this way then. Just drop a can with lots of keys, someone else picks it up. I don't think such transfers would be easy to find or to account in the database. Station trades, contracts or the normal market trades are much easier to account and to look after. I don't see any reason that we need to move the PLEX keys out of station (aside the trading aspect from one system to the other and make some isk with that) but I see severe drawbacks allowing moving it out of station. So, if you want to have them movable out of station, give good reasons for that. And just 'because I want to' is not a good reason.
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.12.21 13:59:00 - [67] Originally by: Ephemeron To me this is just one more little factoid that shows how CCP is afraid to be hardcore, they want to make the game more soft and cudly just like WoW. There's absolutely nothing wrong with letting people risk transporting that stuff, and it would make piracy more worthwhile. Actually no. There have been exploits and there's always the possibility of an exploit showing up down the road which allow you to dupe items. If PLEX becomes dupeable... that's a really bad business thing. By making it only allowed in station... the chance of duping it is basically 0. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.12.21 14:05:00 - [68] Originally by: Gnulpie Just drop a can with lots of keys, someone else picks it up. I don't think such transfers would be easy to find or to account in the database. From a purely logical perspective, there is no reason why these sort of actions couldn't be audited just like a direct trade. I think everyone just assumes that CCP wouldn't have "thought of that" and counts on it being as such. As far as moving plex around in a ship, there really isn't a need besides the limitations of the market and contracts being restricted to regions for buy orders. So, since they can be applied to an account from anywhere, the only missing element is being able to buy them from anywhere. As to the Yarrr aspect, hell yes, bring it on. But this damn playerbase can't pull their collective heads out for something as easy as avoiding suicide ganks and yelled their skinned knee heads off until CCP interviened. Yeah, I see ganked plex cards lasting a real long time. Crying bears >>>>> Yarrs. It is what it is. Might as well be realistic about it. ---- ≡v≡
Furb Killer Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.12.21 14:18:00 - [69] When looking at ammount of whining the yarrs do it at least as much as the bears. Suicide gankers want riskfree pvp... --------------------------------------------- Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
Scilent Enigma Minmatar Vae Victis Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.21 14:24:00 - [70] GTC costs real money, an ingame item that has a "legal" real money value that can be lost/stolen is a legal nightmare. Can you imagine the lawsuits etc. if the wrong person should be stupid enough to undock with that thing in his cargo hold?
Bumbum George	Posted - 2008.12.21 15:29:00 - [71] Originally by: Scilent Enigma GTC costs real money, an ingame item that has a "legal" real money value that can be lost/stolen is a legal nightmare. Can you imagine the lawsuits etc. if the wrong person should be stupid enough to undock with that thing in his cargo hold? My Subscription costs real money, so I DEMAND not to be ganked, sine it is a huge deterioration of my in game fun! CCP, comply or I will unleash a legal nightmare (**** that EULA thingy)! Sounds stupid?? Well it is!
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.12.21 15:37:00 - [72] Originally by: Bumbum George My Subscription costs real money, so I DEMAND not to be ganked, sine it is a huge deterioration of my in game fun! CCP, comply or I will unleash a legal nightmare (**** that EULA thingy)! Sounds stupid?? Well it is! Hardly the same thing. Being ganked doesn't end your subscription (i.e. removes service time you've payed for). No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
Jewel Strain	Posted - 2008.12.21 15:57:00 - [73] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Bumbum George My Subscription costs real money, so I DEMAND not to be ganked, sine it is a huge deterioration of my in game fun! CCP, comply or I will unleash a legal nightmare (**** that EULA thingy)! Sounds stupid?? Well it is! Hardly the same thing. Being ganked doesn't end your subscription (i.e. removes service time you've payed for). Having your PLEX blown up/stolen doesn't do so either. The service time someone else payed for is yours one you have activated your PLEX, easy as that. Given the fact that you buy your PLEX in station and absolutely no one forces you to move it around there would actually be no mandatory risk whatsoever.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.21 16:07:00 - [74] Originally by: Ephemeron There can't be a legal issue with proper EULA statements. Entropia does it already, it's virtual economy is directly tied to real money Entropia had to jump through some serious hoops to work, though. Back in the days of Project Entropia, NPCs dropped virtual money, but this was changed to items worth virtual money, because the US government considered it to be a form of online casino, since the "fake" money had "real" value. In meetings with US Congressional committees, it was determined that "fake" money earned could be considered taxable income, where fake items worth fake money with real value was enough separation to void being direct taxable income. I would imagine these PLEXes would fall into the same line of thinking. These items are worth "real" money, so putting them in a ship to be blown up and potentially dropped would represent "real" income for the player receiving it. Thus, taxable income.
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.12.21 20:25:00 - [75] Edited by: Mika Meroko on 21/12/2008 20:35:35 Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Ephemeron There can't be a legal issue with proper EULA statements. Entropia does it already, it's virtual economy is directly tied to real money Entropia had to jump through some serious hoops to work, though. Back in the days of Project Entropia, NPCs dropped virtual money, but this was changed to items worth virtual money, because the US government considered it to be a form of online casino, since the "fake" money had "real" value. In meetings with US Congressional committees, it was determined that "fake" money earned could be considered taxable income, where fake items worth fake money with real value was enough separation to void being direct taxable income. I would imagine these PLEXes would fall into the same line of thinking. These items are worth "real" money, so putting them in a ship to be blown up and potentially dropped would represent "real" income for the player receiving it. Thus, taxable income. ahhh, so they did passed that bill... I was wondering what happened to that... yeah, most of the posters who wants plex to be lootable/dropping are conveniently avoiding the issues of RL complications in form with the court of law and the taxman. in order words, it might be fun for you pirates, but its gonna cost CCP money in legal fees... and no, just cause you think wont happen isnt gonna magically protect CCP from it. everybody sues for the most menial things (not to mention alot of lawyers now work for free until you get a settlement...is now so easy to sue people/companies) ... and the taxman will get into anything thats remotely taxable. so it is really not bloody worth implementing... it will cause CCP to go bankrupt just to defend itself... (hence why they keep saying things have no RL value... and the things that DO have RL value.. they arent letting that touch RMT and/or theft..) oh, as for the girl scouts... yeah... they make goood cookies... and cute too. edit: as for people saying blah blah you signed the EULA... the Courts in the USA, China, and now, Neatherlands have consistently shredded EULAs (saying is an unfair/something agreement...) and allowed law suits concerning vitual items with RL value (the really obvious stuff) to go though.... which means MMO companies now need to hire lawyers now if their service are in those countries... if they want to entertain the idea that anything resembling RMT and/or theft of items with RL values. just cause they might not be able to sue YOU (cause your country doesnt blah blah..) doesnt mean CCP is immune to lawsuits... CCP does not determine if the EULA is a legit agreement under the court.. the court does that... the EULA is only btwn you and CCP.... and you can always use the court system to ** CCP if CCP have an office/does bussiness in your country. in other words: Courts > CCP's EULA > YOU Originally by:** CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups	Posted - 2008.12.21 21:31:00 - [76] Originally by: Mika Meroko one recent (well, not so recent anymore) is the ....something hotel thingy.... government ruled in favor of the people who sued (and those who stole got community service since they were young). " A spokesman for Sulake, the company that operates Habbo Hotel, said: "The accused lured victims into handing over their Habbo passwords by creating fake Habbo websites" And robbed their furniture Out of game methods were used to transfer the tiems hence not the same as OP is suggesting SKUNK Originally by: CCP Navigator People who think I am joking or talking big are going to understand very quickly that there will be order
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.12.21 21:34:00 - [77] Edited by: Mika Meroko on 21/12/2008 21:35:47 still, it doesnt stop lawyers/potential headaches... XD... we all know SOMEONE out there is gonna sue, and when that happens, others will follow... is not a theory that we want to test ... XD and I still think lawyers and court systems are ridiculous XD... edit: Lawyers are ebil~! we cant give them any room to wessel in!!! Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.21 22:01:00 - [78] This thread really reached the height of stupidity when someone started to (clearly, even if veiled) drag idiot holocaust deniers into it by suggesting that the only reason for laws against denying the historical event were because there was significant evidence that the deniers/idiots are right. Seriously... I expect a certain asinine level of idiocy in the EVE forums, but at least they usually don't involve external, real-world political stupidity. There are a million examples that could have been used to argue the point of "stupid laws", but I guess some people just have to drag their own little ignorant pet-cause into every single conversation like those people who can turn a discussion about fuel efficiency into an abortion or gun-rights argument. sigh Time to pull the rip-cord on this entire thread.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.21 23:06:00 - [79] PLEX is bought with out of game money to pay for an account. It's simply more convenient to trade it in game. It can't be undocked with because they don't want people losing real money for ingame stuff. Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2008.12.22 02:09:00 - [80] yeaaaah, losing real money could really make people ****ed.
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.12.22 03:18:00 - [81] There's no logic reason for them to not allow plex cards to be transported. but I believe it's purely convenience in that they just don't want to deal with the whining that would erupt if custoemrs got ganked and lost their newly-bought cards. It's just a measure to reduce the stress on GMs. I think it's a good idea. to look at it another way, why would they expose their staff to even more abuse and hysterical lawsuit threats just to satisfy the tiny group in eve that wants it? 99% of people do not care that their targets won't ever drop one of these. Why do you? it's just as likely that the guy who sold the plex then bought some faction module with it and you can gank him and get it. Imagine the whining if someone bought a plex card, stuck it in their cargo, then got ganked and it was destroyed? People (idiots) would accuse CCP of outright theft in allowing such a thing to happen. They are just protecting their employee's mental health.
StinkFinger Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.12.22 03:29:00 - [82] Originally by: Jason Edwards Originally by: Ephemeron To me this is just one more little factoid that shows how CCP is afraid to be hardcore, they want to make the game more soft and cudly just like WoW. There's absolutely nothing wrong with letting people risk transporting that stuff, and it would make piracy more worthwhile. Actually no. There have been exploits and there's always the possibility of an exploit showing up down the road which allow you to dupe items. If PLEX becomes dupeable... that's a really bad business thing. By making it only allowed in station... the chance of duping it is basically 0. ^^^ This Originally by: Karanth That's like sitting on your hand till it goes numb, so it's like a stranger. It's not as satisfying, and I'LL know the difference.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.12.22 08:19:00 - [83] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: CCP Explorer Because you don't need them in-space for any purpose and they can be applied remotely via the assets list. You don't need exotic dancers in-space for any purpose either. You can look at them via the assets list. Exotic Dancers were used in some missions in the past, thus we used to have actual need to transport them around. For PLEX I have to agree - there is no need and this is better this way. If you want to resell them then buy only in station you are doing it or train up trade skills to cover the whole region.
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.12.22 08:27:00 - [84] Edited by: Karlemgne on 22/12/2008 08:29:41 Edited by: Karlemgne on 22/12/2008 08:27:41 Listen to these people, particularly Peachesandcream, because they make a lot of sense. A number of legal issues would be raised by allowing things purchased for real money to be taken, by force, from other players. Why? Because these plex cards represent a real life service that someone paid for--game time. These other games you keep mentioning, Entropy, Second Life, etc. Is it possible to have someone show up at your virtual house, or on your virtual street, and have them virtually shoot you in the face and then take the stuff that was paid for with real money? I don't think so. Essentially what you are asking for CCP to do is enter a very gray area within the law, especially considering the nature of eve--"pew pew that's mine now loser." I mean in such a cut throat game where real life money is on the line constantly, EVE would cease to be a simple game. It would become a contest where you compete with other people for real money--essentially gambling. How does your local government feel about online gambling? Still want to tell me there would be no "legal" issues. Having said all of that, we don't even need to abstract this discussion to that level. Let me ask you a question. What is CCP? Don't worry, I won't get all Pulp Fiction on you. CCP is a capitalist entity. What do capitalist entities do? That's right, they make money. That's why they exist. So what do you think is going to happen the first time the much hated carebear loses his game time? That's right, he's going to fracking quit the game. I'm willing to guess that a LOT of people losing the money they'd spent on EVE play time would start to quit. What does this mean for CCP? It would hurt their bottom line. So look at it like this. CCP is a company. CCP's goal is to make money. So they could allow plex cards off stations. They could make it so us pirates could shoot people in the face and take their play time. If they did that you would be happy, and this rant wouldn't be here. Then again, if they did that, they'd be entering legal limbo. They'd be opening themselves up to possible legal sanction, which maybe they could fight, after hiring a bunch of expensive lawyers. They would be opening up us pirates to possible legal action because of something we've done in a game. And importantly, they could kiss hundreds (if not thousands) of subscriptions goodbye. Now, don't take this the wrong way, but... why the frack would they risk all that because you think it would be more "hardcore?" -K
Lorzion Minmatar IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.12.22 09:25:00 - [85] I want them to be movable. I want to pop a freightor full some day jumping into our camp and making tirllions and being able to play for years!
Puscas Marin	Posted - 2008.12.22 10:27:00 - [86] Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Ephemeron CCP made new feature that lets people convert GTC into game item that can be traded on station markets. But for some odd reason, they went the extra step to make sure that people didn't undock with them. Why? Because you don't need them in-space for any purpose and they can be applied remotely via the assets list. and what about a option from assets like "move PLEX in current station"
Winters Chill Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.12.22 11:45:00 - [87] Edited by: Winters Chill on 22/12/2008 11:45:17 Originally by: Puscas Marin and what about a option from assets like "move PLEX in current station" Maybe because there is no need at all for that option. Since the CCP guy said they can be applied remotely? Unless your trying to scam people?
Puscas Marin	Posted - 2008.12.22 12:14:00 - [88] Originally by: Winters Chill Edited by: Winters Chill on 22/12/2008 11:45:17 Originally by: Puscas Marin and what about a option from assets like "move PLEX in current station" Maybe because there is no need at all for that option. Since the CCP guy said they can be applied remotely? Unless your trying to scam people? well the thing is if you create the PLEX in a region and none buy that you cant move it and sell it to jita for example
Durzel Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.22 12:17:00 - [89] Edited by: Durzel on 22/12/2008 12:19:56 Originally by: Karlemgne Edited by: Karlemgne on 22/12/2008 08:29:41 Edited by: Karlemgne on 22/12/2008 08:27:41 Listen to these people, particularly Peachesandcream, because they make a lot of sense. A number of legal issues would be raised by allowing things purchased for real money to be taken, by force, from other players. Why? Because these plex cards represent a real life service that someone paid for--game time. So how does that argument sit with people openly scamming for PLEXs? (e.g. Want To Buy contracts where the required item is a PLEX and offered money is 400k ISK advertised as 400M?) - isn't that scamming for real-life cash? CCP don't to my knowledge allow character sale scamming, they outlawed non-secure GTC sales, yet they don't seem to have a problem with PLEX scamming? Unlike regular ingame items that have no actual worth (they're worth whatever anyone is willing to pay at a given time, and that ISK has a vague but unspecific real-world currency value), PLEXs have a fixed real-world cost. (Yes I know the rules about "lrn2read contract" but that doesn't alter the fact that PLEX scamming or blowing someone up who is carrying them is legally the same grey area)
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.12.22 12:31:00 - [90] Originally by: Ephemeron Your typical mothership pilot puts $1000 USD on the line in combat titan pilots can have $10,000 worth of stuff on the line What's the conversion rate nowadays? Eve isk to usd?
Schalac Caldari Apocalypse Reign	Posted - 2008.12.22 12:42:00 - [91] This whole thread is faulty logic. Once you purchase a GTC you have now payed CCP for 30 or 60 days of play time. CCP owns it. Once you CHOOSE to turn your GTC into a PLEX card it is now an in game item and susceptible to all the scams and theft just as all other in game items are. They are no different than a 300 or 600 mil ship and do not constitute a real life value.
Schalac Caldari Apocalypse Reign	Posted - 2008.12.22 12:48:00 - [92] Originally by: Mika Meroko Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: Abrazzar It is irrelevant whether or not items in EVE have a RL value. They are all owned by CCP. A GTC however is owned by the player until cashed in. And there is the judicial difference. The player always gets his GTC. But once it is in the hands of the player, CCP's responsibility is over. Now whatever the player does with it is his own responsibility. If he loses it - tough luck ... in your world it might work like that... is your opinion.... but yeah, we live in a world where Chainsaws have warning labels to warn people not to stop moving blades with a body part. .... I am sorry to say, that "touch luck" attitude might work well in 3rd world countries... but it just wont stand in the nuthouse that is our court of law... P.S: In Canada, if a burglar comes to your house, you are NOT allowed to hurt him. if you beat him up for robbing your house, he could SUE you AND win... thats how ridiculous court systems are... Dont blame CCP... Blame the sorry excuse of a court system we have in the Western World. This whole post is so far from the truth that it makes me laugh. If you feel threatened in your home you damn sure are allowed to defend your person and property with appropriate force. Just stop with your bull**** please.
Durzel Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.22 13:13:00 - [93] Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Ephemeron Your typical mothership pilot puts $1000 USD on the line in combat titan pilots can have $10,000 worth of stuff on the line What's the conversion rate nowadays? Eve isk to usd? It's somewhat academic what the conversion rate is. Ingame stuff, even motherships, don't have a "known value" - if CCP decided overnight to drastically lower the build costs to the point where Nyxs could be farmed out like ammo then the people that paid 18B+ for them would suddenly find theirs worth next to nothing. Obviously CCP is unlikely to ever do this, but they could - and that's the point. GTC/PLEXs on the other hand have a fixed real-world value, they cost a fixed amount of real world money to buy (in the first instance anyway). There is, at least in my mind, a difference between something that has intrinsic value, and something that has transient value.
Schalac Caldari Apocalypse Reign	Posted - 2008.12.22 13:37:00 - [94] Originally by: Durzel Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Ephemeron Your typical mothership pilot puts $1000 USD on the line in combat titan pilots can have $10,000 worth of stuff on the line What's the conversion rate nowadays? Eve isk to usd? It's somewhat academic what the conversion rate is. Ingame stuff, even motherships, don't have a "known value" - if CCP decided overnight to drastically lower the build costs to the point where Nyxs could be farmed out like ammo then the people that paid 18B+ for them would suddenly find theirs worth next to nothing. Obviously CCP is unlikely to ever do this, but they could - and that's the point. GTC/PLEXs on the other hand have a fixed real-world value, they cost a fixed amount of real world money to buy (in the first instance anyway). There is, at least in my mind, a difference between something that has intrinsic value, and something that has transient value. Except the only value they have is tied into the game. If CCP decided tomorrow that EVE will now be free to play then all those GTCs purchased are now worthless. Also there is no ISK to USD conversion rate because you can't take ISK to a bank and ask for USD.
Brainless Bimbo Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.22 14:01:00 - [95] Originally by: Ephemeron yes, I want to pop carebear and get PLEX code. What's wrong with that, seriously? You should ask your shrink for advice about those thoughts and what they make you feel, but remember that advice will vary according to thier dogma and your other RL issues so shop around, personally i'll put it down to Ephemerom just being a peice of s**te with selfworth issues, well you did ask..... PLEX's can't be moved for the same reason GTC aren't traded in game for ISK but via secure CCP transaction, it stops farmers, fools and charlatans. ...... continues overleaf.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.22 14:17:00 - [96] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: CCP Explorer Because you don't need them in-space for any purpose and they can be applied remotely via the assets list. You don't need exotic dancers in-space for any purpose either. You can look at them via the assets list. wow, I can't believe people voted for you. you can't do anything with them in space. and dancers are a trade item, you can make a profit buying and selling them on the NPC markets, but you wouldn't know that would you. They can be used remotly, unlike any other item in the game. Basically, they are NOT an in game item, it can't be moved because you can't touch it. It's like how I can't take isk and put it in my cargo hold but I still carry it around and and I can een give it to people and recieve it.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.22 14:18:00 - [97] Originally by: Schalac This whole thread is faulty logic. Once you purchase a GTC you have now payed CCP for 30 or 60 days of play time. CCP owns it. Once you CHOOSE to turn your GTC into a PLEX card it is now an in game item and susceptible to all the scams and theft just as all other in game items are. They are no different than a 300 or 600 mil ship and do not constitute a real life value. but why would you need to move it if you can use it anywhere any time from any place?
Jacob Holland Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries	Posted - 2008.12.22 14:24:00 - [98] The reason they can't be moved is that if someone ganks a ship full of PLEXs and makes off with the surviving ones they're in a legal grey area. Because PLEXs have a definitive real world value CCP have to be very careful with it. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities	Posted - 2008.12.22 14:27:00 - [99] CCP has said 'no' and it's not exactly a game-breaking issue. So there really is no need to argue. Suck it up. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"

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