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Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:39:00 - [91] Originally by: ebonyivory you do not fit points on carriers in a fleet battle u noob Originally by: ebonyivory 1)you rely on support to tackle stuff everyone will agree with me on this that actually knows anything about fleet fights kthxbye Fetchez la vache !
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:44:00 - [92] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: ebonyivory you do not fit points on carriers in a fleet battle u noob Originally by: ebonyivory 1)you rely on support to tackle stuff everyone will agree with me on this that actually knows anything about fleet fights kthxbye Eh, well what would TCF know abut fleet fights, after all....
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:45:00 - [93] Originally by: Dantes Revenge Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn No, you got the useless shield to be destroyed. The time it's destroyed you can cap tank enough to go back to 90% cap and starting active tanking. Tell me where you see armor boost amplifiers as well as rigs to do the same or skills to significantly reduce armor rep cap use. Maybe you've seen passive armor reps somewhere around that the rest of us have missed all these years. Armor reps use a lot more cap than shield boosters and there's little that can be done to reduce it unlike shield boosting. Armor tankers don't have the luxury of fitting a passive mod to repair armor like the low AND mid slot fittings for shield regen that use NO CAP AT ALL. So just remember that the buffer armor tankers get is often only a brief reprieve. Just remember that most of us can fit a reasonable shield tanked ship with mods to use against the enemy and still keep it relatively cap stable with the right skills. An armor tanker has to have boosters or cap regens to make it cap stable even with the best skills using mids and lows that would be better used for something else. This is often the reason why an armor tanker is fitted for max gank to kill their opponent before they lose their cap. Rather than fit loads of cap regens and find themselves dealing so little damage that the enemy is passive tanking them. Agree in roaming gang. No in fleets. 10 second module activation lag is the same as "no lag" in fleets, you know that. And it's almost perfect conditions. Anyway, within 10 seconds you still start your modules at 80% shields. An armor tanking guy still starts their modules at 100% armor. Fetchez la vache !
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:47:00 - [94] Originally by: Malcanis Eh, well what would TCF know abut fleet fights, after all.... - I'm not TCF as a whole - I think TCF know fleet fight but maybe I'm wrong. I'm pretty much entered triage mode anyway. i think i should calm down a bit. Fetchez la vache !
Toshiro Khan Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:05:00 - [95] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn 25 categories in Eve excluding exhummers, cap carebear ships, misc and shuttles. I think our ships sucks very bad in less than 1/4 of these (esp all caps/supercaps). Some of our ships pwn in more than 7 categories (dictors, HID, tech I fregates, tech I cruisers, assault ships, destroyers, comandships, ceptors, hacs). So it's balanced to my point of vue. Having crap capitals but all other great ship doesn't mean our race is crap. Sorry, but your wrong. While you are entitled to your opinion, the views and opinions of others all agree that the majority of Minmatar ships are the worst of their classes. Off hand I honestly can't think of one Minmatar ship that is the best of its class. No tell a lie.. The Rifter is probably the best T1 frig of its class and the Rupture is the best T1 cruiser of its class. But that's not for definite. However, I'm slightly confused to why you are arguing against Minmatar ships getting a boost. If your that much of a die hard Matari pilot, i thought you would welcome a boost.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:09:00 - [96] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: Toshiro Khan However the majority are sub par and the weakest of their class. 25 categories in Eve excluding exhummers, cap carebear ships, misc and shuttles. I think our ships sucks very bad in less than 1/4 of these (esp all caps/supercaps). Some of our ships pwn in more than 7 categories (dictors, HID, tech I fregates, tech I cruisers, assault ships, destroyers, comandships, ceptors, hacs). So it's balanced to my point of vue. Having crap capitals but all other great ship doesn't mean our race is crap. crap hacs crap capitals crapish battleships artillery sucks split weapons suck theres a neverending list of thing that are bad with minmatar and it far outweighs the few good ships we have (and i mean top of the class not just inline with the others)
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:18:00 - [97] Originally by: ebonyivory crap hacs crap capitals crapish battleships artillery sucks split weapons suck Tell you what, I'll lobby with you to have all Minmatar artie and split weapon ships converted into fully fledged and wtfpwning missile ships?
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:20:00 - [98] Originally by: Pohbis Originally by: ebonyivory crap hacs crap capitals crapish battleships artillery sucks split weapons suck Tell you what, I'll lobby with you to have all Minmatar artie and split weapon ships converted into fully fledged and wtfpwning missile ships? meh would probably be an improvement. The thing with split weapons is not only do you get less dps from ship stats but you also suffer the worst of both worlds (crap artillery and large acs v torps requiring tps and cruise missiles being lollish)
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:38:00 - [99] ok having read half the post just 2 things 1 Triage sucks balls unless you have a POS you are desperate to save and are willing to throw away a few carriers. 2 Nid/Thanny tank equally as badly the nids bonus only works in its favour if every carrier in the gang is nidhoggurs so they all get the RR boost and help eachother more on top of that a chimera or archon still benifits more from their bonuses because their resistances have the same effect as having a repping bonus (from the perspective of being repped) but those resistance bonuses also add to the EHP and the personal tank of the carrier in question on top of that archon/chimera have the ability to fit more tanking mods than the other 2 carriers giving them even more of an advantage if you dont want a stable tank. 3. Someone mentioned the RR bonus makes the nid use more cap/s: WRONG then changed it so its a rep ammount bonus not the old rep time bonus which did used to make it eat more cap/s. 4. THE NAGLFAR it is broken pure and simple for a start because of its extra high slot it has one less utility slot (mids/lows) however this is silly the extra high slot gives it no benifits due to the split weapons system and low intial DPS of cit torps/capital projectiles and also as a consiquence of the split weapons the extreem difficulty to fit any damage mods effectively, mean that the moros or revelation can do double the DPS of the nag (and thats not just EFT theory thats from use ingame of all those ships) the phoenix amittedly suffers simmilarly low dps but can fit damage mods to compensate plus the second part is important. Due to the high CPU usage of the citadel torp launchers and having 2 launchers + two turrets really takes away alot of the CPU, however the moros, which yes uses hybrids which in turn are some what CPU intensive but in the end 3 of which equal the CPU of 2 launchers + 1 equivalent range gun, has 50 more CPU than the naglfar ok yes it has 1 more mid/low slot but that should take around 20-40 CPU fitting an equivalent set of guns on a nag uses 80 more CPU exactly for both sets so in reality the nag should have 40-60 MORE CPU than the moros. Iknow this is rambling but this leads me to my final point on this ship and the reason the phoenix in smaller groups (it probs needs a buff too tbh) is redeemed slightly: Capital shield tanks in siege, capital shield tanks are better than armor tanks for personal tanks be it sustanable or burst and in siege mode the diffrence is emphasised the phoenix can fit one, so can the moros, the naglfar cant (which considering minmatar capitals were intially meant to be able to field shield tanks is silly) even with CPU implants you can just about fit one if you spend 600mil on faction hardeners. So basically the nag does suck yes it looks nice and diffrent but it needs an extra mid slot and more CPU or to be switched to a pure projectile boat with 3 turret hard points and 4 total high slots. Also the TCF guy mentioned minmatar ships being best in 7 classes including destroyer, command ships and T1 frigs, T1 cruisers destroyers no one uses command ships well post nano nerf clamore is only slightly better than the EOS but much much worse than vulture/damnation. The sleipnir has never really matched up toe to toe abso/astarte or even the nighthawk (but thats a bit diffrent from them all) and post QR it loses its one advantage of speed frigates are debatable and not that regularly used tho rifter admittedly is pretty good the punisher is probably better with lasers or autocannons and you were talking the best not just good. cruisers again rupture is pretty good but thorax or vexor even is better stabber is fairly unique however other ships are just better and again post speed nerf its not astounding.
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:39:00 - [100] Originally by: Onewingedangel Pls, forums can be used for more than whining. First, vaga is still viable. It's just not broken anymore, so people are whining that it is no longer "killproof." Minmatar capitols do not suck, the Nid is the best support carrier in the game, and what are carriers there for? Support. The remote repping bonus is a huge advantage in combat and the subpar capitol tank doesn't mean ** if you aren't the primary. Secondly, a lack of a damage bonus is no real issue as many pilots assign fighters anyway, thus negating any damage bonus. The Naglfar is just plain cool. OMG a REV can out tank and out dps it, who cares. I'd take a Naglfar any day of the week over a rev in a small to moderate sized fleet engagement. They typhoon is awesome, 2 neut 2 nos 4 cruise + tackle/cap injector in mids + crazy armor tank in lows owns, with good skills you will be able to solo a Dominix, although it will be a close fight. Also, the typhoon is wonderfully versatile. Just because it can't go 10billion k/sec anymore doesn't mean it sucks. The tempest is flipping awesome. It's guns don't use cap, which means in a plated setup you have FIVE MID SLOTS to do whatever you want with. The tempest is a big hurricane. The maelstrom is awesome, and a big cyclone. Hell, the maelstrom I think is the worst minmatar ship there is, and I say that because it does not fly like a minmatar ship. It feels quite Amarr [slow as **] and it does nothing but tank and damage, like Amarr. Split weapons do not suck, hurricane for instance you can put a full rack of arties then 2 assault missile launchers+drones to handle tacklers. You can do the same on the tempest if you so desire. Split weapons offer versatility. Which is the advantage you have when flying minmatar. No other race matches minmatar versatility. That in itself is a great strength. The recons are not sub par, the Rapier with 1 web and a point fitted can fit a very hard shield tank. Or alternatively an armor tank is viable. Also, if you spent 200mil on a polyvaga and get popped by a drake it is the result of your poor piloting. Regardless of whether or not you actually kill the drake, it should not be able to kill you. You are faster, which means that if things start going south you can just leave. Which makes me think, that because you can't solo anything you want you resort to complaining. Please, actually fly these ships before complaining about them. So they don't crank out the highest dps and craziest tanks, fly Amarr if you want that. Every race has a different role. Indeed sir! As you so elegant points out, Minmatars has the top ships in every class. And people have the nerv to yell buff...eh? If their as good as you say, they really need a nerf...right?

Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:41:00 - [101] Originally by: Halock i think the problem with minmatar comes from them not having too great an eft showing, that being said, autocannon mechanics with falloff etc does suck. Problem is Minmatars show off better in EFT then in real game. Reason is you are suppose to fight in falloff. EFT shows numbers from optimal.
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:45:00 - [102] Originally by: Pohbis Originally by: ebonyivory crap hacs crap capitals crapish battleships artillery sucks split weapons suck Tell you what, I'll lobby with you to have all Minmatar artie and split weapon ships converted into fully fledged and wtfpwning missile ships? Actually at one stage i proposed a typhoon with 6-7 high slots and adding an extra mid slot for the lost high 5 missile launcher hard points no turret hardpoints keeping the current 5% ROF missile bonus but making it for torps only then making its second bonus a target painter bonus similar to vigil/bellicose and T2 variants making it an armor tanking drone/torp boat (not something eve actually has) due to the lack of a missile range bonus it would be forced to get in close and would making good use of the minmatar EW for once. Unfortunately my dream was never accepted.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:47:00 - [103] Originally by: Toshiro Khan Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn 25 categories in Eve excluding exhummers, cap carebear ships, misc and shuttles. I think our ships sucks very bad in less than 1/4 of these (esp all caps/supercaps). Some of our ships pwn in more than 7 categories (dictors, HID, tech I fregates, tech I cruisers, assault ships, destroyers, comandships, ceptors, hacs). So it's balanced to my point of vue. Having crap capitals but all other great ship doesn't mean our race is crap. Sorry, but your wrong. While you are entitled to your opinion, the views and opinions of others all agree that the majority of Minmatar ships are the worst of their classes. Off hand I honestly can't think of one Minmatar ship that is the best of its class. No tell a lie.. The Rifter is probably the best T1 frig of its class and the Rupture is the best T1 cruiser of its class. But that's not for definite. However, I'm slightly confused to why you are arguing against Minmatar ships getting a boost. If your that much of a die hard Matari pilot, i thought you would welcome a boost. Sabre is **tiest ? It's almost the only viable dictor ! To answer your question? I'd love minnie ship to have a boost, but it would be biaised by the fact I play Matar only ships. But I don't think it's required as much as the op whines for it. We have ugly ships but not the tiest. Amybe some tweaks could be uqsed, especially on dual weapon boats (Naglflar is hte ty dread, Typhoon/trashbin boat is hte ugliest ty boat in Eve imo, just because it's ty looking. i know some guys loves it. But it's fuggly. I don't want to be loled on the battlefield so I don't move in it. And I don't have the rquired 40m sp skill to make it viable anyway.) I tried Caldari ships. the raven or the rook. ECM, etc. These are good ships but these have no taste. No risk and no reward. It's like entering a ship, uber tank/uber ecm, been blown (anyway) and having no fun. Minnmatar ships are fun. So they aren't ** to my "some would tell lame" point of vue. We still have great and best boat. Guess what ? These are my favorite categories. I'm adapted to play the boat this race have. love them and I don't care bs or caps. If I'd wanted to play cap I would have played Amarr. Fetchez la vache !
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:49:00 - [104] Originally by: ebonyivory Originally by: Pohbis Originally by: ebonyivory crap hacs crap capitals crapish battleships artillery sucks split weapons suck Tell you what, I'll lobby with you to have all Minmatar artie and split weapon ships converted into fully fledged and wtfpwning missile ships? meh would probably be an improvement. The thing with split weapons is not only do you get less dps from ship stats but you also suffer the worst of both worlds (crap artillery and large acs v torps requiring tps and cruise missiles being lollish) Artillery is pure omgwtfbbq when you have all skill 5 in it like me. I see what is your problem now. Fetchez la vache !
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:50:00 - [105] Originally by: Onewingedangel Split weapons do not suck, hurricane for instance you can put a full rack of arties then 2 assault missile launchers+drones to handle tacklers. You can do the same on the tempest if you so desire. Split weapons offer versatility. Which is the advantage you have when flying minmatar. No other race matches minmatar versatility. That in itself is a great strength. Since you fly the ships supposedly it is intresting to note you fail to realise that split weapons systems is not really a reference to having a couple of launcher slots its a refrence to having 2 bonuses to diffrent forms of damage. while this is the case on most drone boats too they dont have to worry about having half their slots for one weapon and half for another as they can have normally 80% of their high slots fitted with bonused turrets if they so wish while still also getting the second damage bonus for the drones in their bays. That they choose to fit other things because bonused drones are effective enough is a diffrent matter.
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:51:00 - [106] Edited by: Pohbis on 26/12/2008 16:53:02 Originally by: Random Womble Actually at one stage i proposed a typhoon with 6-7 high slots and adding an extra mid slot for the lost high 5 missile launcher hard points no turret hardpoints keeping the current 5% ROF missile bonus but making it for torps only then making its second bonus a target painter bonus similar to vigil/bellicose and T2 variants making it an armor tanking drone/torp boat (not something eve actually has) due to the lack of a missile range bonus it would be forced to get in close and would making good use of the minmatar EW for once. Unfortunately my dream was never accepted. Maybe that's because of just replacing its weapon system with missiles only, you tried to piggyback as much as you could on top to make it nber, yes? An armor tanking torp spewer with RoF & TP bonus, mids free out the whazooo and good dronebay. Yes please, I think we'd all like that.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:58:00 - [107] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 17:03:11 Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 16:59:39 Originally by: ebonyivory Originally by: Pohbis Originally by: ebonyivory crap hacs crap capitals crapish battleships artillery sucks split weapons suck Tell you what, I'll lobby with you to have all Minmatar artie and split weapon ships converted into fully fledged and wtfpwning missile ships? meh would probably be an improvement. Go play caldari tbh, if you like so much other's ships. You're inadapted to play Matar. If one day I'd like to enter a dread what makes you think I'll train Matar. I love the design but it's crap so I move on to Phoenix. It won't be the first long training ship I would had anyway. BTW you're right the Nid tank is ****ty. Fetchez la vache !
arbiter reformed Minmatar Systematic Chaos.	Posted - 2008.12.26 17:05:00 - [108] ppl seem to forget quite how good the tempest is, good range(granted not as good as amarr) dual webs/space for eccm, great for solo with a nuet and sbomb, great for gangsd with 2 rr, they are mega killers basicly, amrr cant deal with blasterships like these ships can, they dictate range very effectivly which amarr cant. granted amarr have great battleships, they always have had, the last year at least has been dominated by amarr bs's. this doesnt mean they dont have there drawbacks too
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.12.26 17:08:00 - [109] Edited by: Happster on 26/12/2008 17:13:11 Originally by: Random Womble Originally by: Onewingedangel Split weapons do not suck, hurricane for instance you can put a full rack of arties then 2 assault missile launchers+drones to handle tacklers. You can do the same on the tempest if you so desire. Split weapons offer versatility. Which is the advantage you have when flying minmatar. No other race matches minmatar versatility. That in itself is a great strength. Since you fly the ships supposedly it is intresting to note you fail to realise that split weapons systems is not really a reference to having a couple of launcher slots its a refrence to having 2 bonuses to diffrent forms of damage. while this is the case on most drone boats too they dont have to worry about having half their slots for one weapon and half for another as they can have normally 80% of their high slots fitted with bonused turrets if they so wish while still also getting the second damage bonus for the drones in their bays. That they choose to fit other things because bonused drones are effective enough is a diffrent matter. I find best phoon is a phoon without any artillery nor AC's fitted. My phoon does about 850 dps, have about 200k ehp and 3xheavy neuts and 1xmedium neut fitted. A very good 1vs1 pvp ship. Atleast against ships that depends on cap Edit: As a general note about Minmatar ships. I find some BS usefull in some situation. But i have adapted and cross trained to other races. Usally i fly none minnie bs as they work better for the task ahead. But now and then i take out my phoon as its pretty good against cap using ships. Point is, you adapt or die with the race you fly. This isnt minnie spesific thing, but counts for all races.
Toshiro Khan Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.26 17:25:00 - [110] Edited by: Toshiro Khan on 26/12/2008 17:25:27 Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Sabre is **tiest ? It's almost the only viable dictor ! Please point to where in my post i mention the sabre or say it was the worst. Ahhhh i didn't... And I'm not sure what game your playing.. But All the dictors are quite capable of deploying bubbles.. Thus preforming their role quite equally, making them all quite viable. Being as a dictors life expectancy isn't very high regardless of how good its damage output is, the cheaper dictors make for a much better option. Plus again the speed re-balance hasn't help it or the others out much. So please, don't try pick up on things i never mentioned in the first place, as i have yet to call any of the Minmatar ships the tiest or **ty... I guess that you are slowly working on trying to troll me that you are no longer able to argue your point, due to the evidence and information given by others proving that you are wrong. Its all well and good you being Matari specced but, it shows that you don't have any clue of how the Minmatar ships sit in their class compared to others. You yourself said you had never flown a carrier, yet made arguments of how good the Nid was, even though others who have had experience in flying carriers pointed out how bad it was. And to throw in the Triage mod as part of your argument without understanding how it works, just destroyed any credit you had in that argument. As i said and have maintained the Minmatar do have some good ships, but the majority are the worst of their class.

ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 18:13:00 - [111] Originally by: Toshiro Khan As i said and have maintained the Minmatar do have some good ships, but the majority are the worst of their class. this pretty much
Argilac Blackthorne	Posted - 2008.12.26 18:29:00 - [112] I am glad to see that this thread is still going and has gotten a bit of attention. Minmatar are terrible compared to all other races right now and need to be reviewed. 90% of our ships are worse than comparable ships of the same class from the other races. Amarr & Gallente pwn right now. Caldari are pretty damn good. Minmatar suck ass.
Northern Fall Minmatar Guild Navy	Posted - 2008.12.26 19:52:00 - [113] Edited by: Northern Fall on 26/12/2008 19:53:09 Someone needs to tape the guns back together that were sawn in half in QR -On topic- If you've got the skills, Minmatar are awsome. downside is your gonna have to T2 fit every ship to get some use out of it. Bottom line is Minnie ships need to be more user friendly
Vall Kor Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.26 20:28:00 - [114] I'm still young in my EVE career. But I'm having a blast with my minnie pilot. Plus, if the ships really are that broken as some of you claim, just cross train That's one of the best things about EVE, there really isn't a best race, unless I'm missing something... And why can't you fly what you enjoy?
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 20:35:00 - [115] Originally by: Vall Kor I'm still young in my EVE career. But I'm having a blast with my minnie pilot. Plus, if the ships really are that broken as some of you claim, just cross train That's one of the best things about EVE, there really isn't a best race, unless I'm missing something... And why can't you fly what you enjoy? so what your telling me is that minnie ships are so bad that cross-training is required nothing wrong there >.> if youd bothered to read youd realise that because your still young in your eve carrier you havent come accross most of the problems facing minnie pilots (cap ships/large acs/artillery/sucky hacs)
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 21:00:00 - [116] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 21:01:16 Originally by: Toshiro Khan (...) the views and opinions of others all agree that the majority of Minmatar ships are the worst of their classes. Off hand I honestly can't think of one Minmatar ship that is the best of its class. The Sabre is. It's the only dictor capable of escaping its own buble in time. Fetchez la vache !
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 21:19:00 - [117] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 21:23:17 Originally by: Toshiro Khan You yourself said you had never flown a carrier, yet made arguments of how good the Nid was, even though others who have had experience in flying carriers pointed out how bad it was. And to throw in the Triage mod as part of your argument without understanding how it works, just destroyed any credit you had in that argument. Triage is usefull in my book "just in case of" and DCU aren't. Shield tanking cap suck very bad in my book. Now go figure how old is our fleet and carrier expert ebonyivory : 14 monthes old, more or less 20m sp. How can you he say Minnie ship and artillery sucks, with so low sp, being allready a carrier pilot. Anyway I admited to be false on the Nid, that is not the point. Op took exemple of suckiest ships in Matari's boat and generalized how sucky were matari ships. If he have trouble using artillery, being a carrier guy with so low sp that is perfectly normal !! I've got 9m sp in gunnery, or half of what he's suposed to have, my 'pest doesn't suck as much as the op implies. It's not sub par. Pvp wise, it's on par megathrons, way better than ravens and on par apocs. Fetchez la vache !
Ralarina Caldari Vivicide	Posted - 2008.12.26 21:44:00 - [118] Originally by: ebonyivory Originally by: Kurt Ambrose Edited by: Kurt Ambrose on 25/12/2008 20:21:54 Originally by: ebonyivory 2)Hacs are crap 5)Recons are sub-par 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless (why spend 200mil on a polyvaga when youl get popped by a drake 0_o) 1) Vagabond is awesome 2) Rapier and Huginn are still nice 3) You dont need speed rigs to get a decent speed out of the vaga 1)paper tank 2)paper tank 3)paper tank ccp effectively nerfed their only realistic form of tanking (you cant armour tank a vaga or shield tank for that matter) sure they can zoom around at lululudicrous speeds but theyl get instapopped by just about anything Deimos has a paper tank as does the cerberus Arazu has like.. no tank (and doesn't have speed going for it either) and the rapier has (debatably) a better EW bonus. ... Every race CANNOT be the best at EVERYTHING. -- Ralara's Alt (due to Forum ban)
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 21:47:00 - [119] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 21:23:17 Originally by: Toshiro Khan You yourself said you had never flown a carrier, yet made arguments of how good the Nid was, even though others who have had experience in flying carriers pointed out how bad it was. And to throw in the Triage mod as part of your argument without understanding how it works, just destroyed any credit you had in that argument. Triage is usefull in my book "just in case of" and DCU aren't. Shield tanking cap suck very bad in my book. Now go figure how old is our fleet and carrier expert ebonyivory : 14 monthes old, more or less 20m sp. How can you he say Minnie ship and artillery sucks, with so low sp, being allready a carrier pilot. Anyway I admited to be false on the Nid, that is not the point. Op took exemple of suckiest ships in Matari's boat and generalized how sucky were matari ships. If he have trouble using artillery, being a carrier guy with so low sp that is perfectly normal !! I've got 9m sp in gunnery, or half of what he's suposed to have, my 'pest doesn't suck as much as the op implies. It's not sub par. Pvp wise, it's on par megathrons, way better than ravens and on par apocs. stop saying triage is useful...its not i dont quite get what you said for the rest of this but im guna try to decipher i took examples of suckiest matari ships because there are so many of them (more than the good ships i presume the whole 14 months is reffering to me...well this isnt my main (main got forum banned for some ....well lets just call them lolposts ok?) ok lets look at your artillery mael v abbadon 5 damage mods in lows full rack of guns each with t2 long range ammo abbadon- 544 dps at 144km 3.5k alfa mael- 412 at 152km 3.8k alfa so the mael is outdamaged pest- 388 at 152km 3.6k alfa apoc- 435 at 188km 2.8k alfa so alls you have to show for your tempest is the slightly higher alfa and decreased range and dps. So now tell me thats not sub-par?
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2008.12.26 21:51:00 - [120] Originally by: Pohbis Edited by: Pohbis on 26/12/2008 16:53:02 Originally by: Random Womble Actually at one stage i proposed a typhoon with 6-7 high slots and adding an extra mid slot for the lost high 5 missile launcher hard points no turret hardpoints keeping the current 5% ROF missile bonus but making it for torps only then making its second bonus a target painter bonus similar to vigil/bellicose and T2 variants making it an armor tanking drone/torp boat (not something eve actually has) due to the lack of a missile range bonus it would be forced to get in close and would making good use of the minmatar EW for once. Unfortunately my dream was never accepted. Maybe that's because of just replacing its weapon system with missiles only, you tried to piggyback as much as you could on top to make it nber, yes? An armor tanking torp spewer with RoF & TP bonus, mids free out the whazooo and good dronebay. Yes please, I think we'd all like that. actually you would only gain 25% DPS over fitting 4 torp launchers and heavy heavy drones now with a typhoon while having a lesser ability to fit nuets the DPS would be less than is possible to achieve now and the range would be 20kms maximum with T1/faction/Rage torps or 30kms maximum with long range torps (which deal considerably less DPS) thats with missile projection and missile bombardment at 5 which is quite skill intensive. A megathron with T2 neutrons and antimatter will get a 9km optimal and 12.5km falloff with sharpshooter 5 and trajectory analysis 5 which are the gunnery skills that equate to missile bombardment/projection. The typhoon would do less DPS and have a similar tank and around same range (mega can shoot further but has the downside that it loses DPS as distance grows and yes i know gallente fight in opt not faloff) the missile range also assumes it exits the ship in the right direction at maximum speed with the opposing ship not moving so real range will be 1km or so less which forces the typhoon to engage at close range. As for free midslots well by adding one midslot the typhoon would have 5 since you get a target painting bonus and a target painter would be needed to get max damage on even a BS that straight away takes atleast one then since its a close range fit and must get in close you are going to be looking a definitely having an MWD so thats 2 slots gone. Next slot goes to the cap injector you will need it which leaves 2 slots left well first would have to be a disruptor/scram and then second you could have a web or ECCM. Bear in mind torps suck against smaller ships especially now the typhoons drone bay is not huge you would probably have 5 heavys yes but you also would need 5 lights for smaller ships question is that last 25m3 you go with a spare heavy or a second set of lights... If you still think it would be overpowered then tell me why most minmatar people actually dislike the idea because they think it would be weaker as the guy said i just think currently its borked yes i have a character that can fly one and i can fit T2 drones (5mil sp) guns(9mil sp minmatar only) or missiles (7mil sp) on it but my opinion still is it need change.



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