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Fix minmatar

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ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.25 15:54:00 - [1] After observing cladari whine about how op every other ship is and then posting so many threads thast ccp caved and nerfed minmatar i figured that in the same spirit minmatar couldget a nice boost....or 10. Reasons minmatar suck 1)Capitals are by far the worst 2)Hacs are crap 3)2 of the bses are crap/subpar 4)split weapons suck 5)Recons are sub-par 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless (why spend 200mil on a polyvaga when youl get popped by a drake 0_o) If you support this buff post then post your own and if we build up enough then ccp will have to change it!
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.25 16:00:00 - [2] Edited by: MotherMoon on 25/12/2008 16:01:30 Recons could use some work, but with the lower speeds, the increased web range is pretty sweet. Painters need a role, boost painters! with the missle nerf a drake can't even touch an untackled vaga, what the hell are you talking about. I swear one week we get "vagas are still over powered CCP didn't nerf speed enough" the next week "Vagas suck! missiles are overpowered!" Yes minmatar capitals suck
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.25 16:03:00 - [3] Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 25/12/2008 16:01:30 Recons could use some work, but with the lower speeds, the increased web range is pretty sweet. Painters need a role, boost painters! with the missle nerf a drake can't even touch an untackled vaga, what the hell are you talking about. I swear one week we get "vagas are still over powered CCP didn't nerf speed enough" the next week "Vagas suck! missiles are overpowered!" Yes minmatar capitals suck ok maybe the drake cant kill a vaga but regardless its still sub-par compared to other hacs since you cant fit a tank on it anymore
Cyrus Brown	Posted - 2008.12.25 16:13:00 - [4] Don't forget the Vargur is terrible. Many of the Minmatar ships are the worst in the game, and need to be fixed. PS - Vagabond is actually still good, but Muninn is pathetic.
Jesslyn Daggererux Gallente SRIUS BISNIS	Posted - 2008.12.25 16:17:00 - [5] Edited by: Jesslyn Daggererux on 25/12/2008 16:17:00 Originally by: ebonyivory After observing cladari whine about how op every other ship is and then posting so many threads thast ccp caved and nerfed minmatar i figured that in the same spirit minmatar couldget a nice boost....or 10. Reasons minmatar suck 1)Capitals are by far the worst 2)Hacs are crap 3)2 of the bses are crap/subpar 4)split weapons suck 5)Recons are sub-par 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless (why spend 200mil on a polyvaga when youl get popped by a drake 0_o)[/b] If you support this buff post then post your own and if we build up enough then ccp will have to change it! if your vaga dies to a drake your doing it wrong. and speed tanking is not dead. the actual speed has reduced, but due to missile changes speed tanking from what ive seen is better than ever. you just have to not use a MWD. ill explain. sorry that you havent noticed in your infinite wisdom, but there actually is a penalty to using a mwd that includes a big sig radius. now i know you want to curl up into the corner, rocking and crying because using a mwd may not be the best idea for a hac anymore, but its true. i have used my hac every day since QR and i find the AB, at least in high sec, is the better choice. and im only using an ishtar. you can get almost twice as fast as me in a vaga. the one thing the ishtar does have over the vaga though is an amazing kinetic resist, the one resist caldari just love. but oh well, if you cant figure out why the vaga doesnt suck just fly a rupture and be glad you still have the best cruiser.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.25 16:29:00 - [6] Originally by: ebonyivory Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 25/12/2008 16:01:30 Recons could use some work, but with the lower speeds, the increased web range is pretty sweet. Painters need a role, boost painters! with the missle nerf a drake can't even touch an untackled vaga, what the hell are you talking about. I swear one week we get "vagas are still over powered CCP didn't nerf speed enough" the next week "Vagas suck! missiles are overpowered!" Yes minmatar capitals suck ok maybe the drake cant kill a vaga but regardless its still sub-par compared to other hacs since you cant fit a tank on it anymore I don't know I still think the vaga is pretty good. But yeah don't wrry some day it will be minmatar online, I mean it used to be gallente online, then caldari online, and now it's ammar online! it'll come :P
Onewingedangel Minmatar MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.12.25 16:48:00 - [7] Pls, forums can be used for more than whining. First, vaga is still viable. It's just not broken anymore, so people are whining that it is no longer "killproof." Minmatar capitols do not suck, the Nid is the best support carrier in the game, and what are carriers there for? Support. The remote repping bonus is a huge advantage in combat and the subpar capitol tank doesn't mean ** if you aren't the primary. Secondly, a lack of a damage bonus is no real issue as many pilots assign fighters anyway, thus negating any damage bonus. The Naglfar is just plain cool. OMG a REV can out tank and out dps it, who cares. I'd take a Naglfar any day of the week over a rev in a small to moderate sized fleet engagement. They typhoon is awesome, 2 neut 2 nos 4 cruise + tackle/cap injector in mids + crazy armor tank in lows owns, with good skills you will be able to solo a Dominix, although it will be a close fight. Also, the typhoon is wonderfully versatile. Just because it can't go 10billion k/sec anymore doesn't mean it sucks. The tempest is flipping awesome. It's guns don't use cap, which means in a plated setup you have FIVE MID SLOTS to do whatever you want with. The tempest is a big hurricane. The maelstrom is awesome, and a big cyclone. Hell, the maelstrom I think is the worst minmatar ship there is, and I say that because it does not fly like a minmatar ship. It feels quite Amarr [slow as **] and it does nothing but tank and damage, like Amarr. Split weapons do not suck, hurricane for instance you can put a full rack of arties then 2 assault missile launchers+drones to handle tacklers. You can do the same on the tempest if you so desire. Split weapons offer versatility. Which is the advantage you have when flying minmatar. No other race matches minmatar versatility. That in itself is a great strength. The recons are not sub par, the Rapier with 1 web and a point fitted can fit a very hard shield tank. Or alternatively an armor tank is viable. Also, if you spent 200mil on a polyvaga and get popped by a drake it is the result of your poor piloting. Regardless of whether or not you actually kill the drake, it should not be able to kill you. You are faster, which means that if things start going south you can just leave. Which makes me think, that because you can't solo anything you want you resort to complaining. Please, actually fly these ships before complaining about them. So they don't crank out the highest dps and craziest tanks, fly Amarr if you want that. Every race has a different role.
Halock Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.25 17:19:00 - [8] i think the problem with minmatar comes from them not having too great an eft showing, that being said, autocannon mechanics with falloff etc does suck.
Schwinger	Posted - 2008.12.25 17:37:00 - [9] Originally by: Onewingedangel No other race matches minmatar versatility. That in itself is a great strength. Oh puh-lease. Being able to do ****loads of nothing is not a great strenght.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.25 17:43:00 - [10] Originally by: Onewingedangel stuff ok heres where your wrong 1)sure you can still fly a vaga but its not half as good as any of the other hacs as it lacks a decent tank and the dps is still pretty meh. 2)Tank is everything in a fleet fight. Nids get called primary because they have the weakest tank so they dont hav e the chance to use any of that "support". 3)the nag being "cool" doesnt make upfor the fact that it can do more damage with unbonused lazers than it can with acs/artillery. Surely beingouttanked and outdpsesd by another ship generally showsthat aformentioned ship sucks. 4)Artillery sucks...it used to be good when ship hp was lower but now its lacks therof to be as effective as the other bses. 5)Large acs suck. 6)split weapins suck badly (see naglfar) asyou cannot fit both damage bonus mods (bcus/gyros) without crippling your tank. 7)versitality is useless when everything outtanks/outdpses u 8)2 extra missile launchersdoesnt make it versitile. Hell you can fit 2 turrets on a raven if u rly wana but that doesnt make the raven versitile. 9)you have obviousely never flown minmatar as you NEVER fit artillery on a cane 10)ok lets look at the recons. Falcon=super jam all it sees from 200km away. Curse can neut and tank while ripping enemies apart with drones. ARazu can damp and slowly eat away with drones. Huggin/rapier can fit a usless speed tank and gettin popped by anything with good gun skills. 11)sure you can flit around at 3km a sec...until a bs neuts u and a bc can pop u. The thing is the vaga was easy to kill before the nerf if u knew what u were doing but now its just lolish. Why spend the200mil when u can get better dps/tank from a cane or a zealot/sac

An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.25 17:48:00 - [11] Here's where you're wrong: Everything I fly is clearly underpowered and everything you fly is clearly overpowered. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Schwinger	Posted - 2008.12.25 18:00:00 - [12] Here's where you're wrong: Originally by: An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm Speaking on my behalf, I do not fly minmatar.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.25 18:17:00 - [13] Yet you think you can reliably speak about ships you don't fly? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Commander Yassir The Seven Sins	Posted - 2008.12.25 18:28:00 - [14] Edited by: Commander Yassir on 25/12/2008 18:28:18 Scuse me I thought it was caldari's turn to whine insert remark about missiles not being awsesome anymore /off sarcasm P.S.-You say one thing about Falcons I will hunt you down and gut you like a fish (In game) Edit: I spell goodly ~ The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone to blame it on.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Ninjas N Pirates	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:06:00 - [15] I fly Minmatar almost exclusively, best ships in the game when you have the skills
Onewingedangel Minmatar MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:11:00 - [16] Edited by: Onewingedangel on 25/12/2008 19:15:57 Edited by: Onewingedangel on 25/12/2008 19:13:52 Edited by: Onewingedangel on 25/12/2008 19:11:46 Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny I fly Minmatar almost exclusively, best ships in the game when you have the skills Key statement, Minmatar always have been and always will be eve on "hard mode." They require the most SP and the most piloting skill to be viable in combat. I would argue that to be effective as a minmatar pilot requires +- 3x as many SP as caldari. ie, 5mil to 15mil i think is a decent comparison. Seriously, I have been flying minmatar for years. Stop whining and learn how to fly. Whenever a race doesn't have the best ship in a certain class they think they are entitled to it.
Alexander Sinclair	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:16:00 - [17] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny I fly Minmatar almost exclusively, best ships in the game when you have the skills I have a pet peeve with the if you have skill argument, because most of the time that means pick fights that the enemy can't even contest, and well I for one would like to do well in a pitched battle. :P
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:18:00 - [18] Originally by: Onewingedangel Edited by: Onewingedangel on 25/12/2008 19:15:57 Edited by: Onewingedangel on 25/12/2008 19:13:52 Edited by: Onewingedangel on 25/12/2008 19:11:46 Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny I fly Minmatar almost exclusively, best ships in the game when you have the skills Key statement, Minmatar always have been and always will be eve on "hard mode." They require the most SP and the most piloting skill to be viable in combat. I would argue that to be effective as a minmatar pilot requires +- 3x as many SP as caldari. ie, 5mil to 15mil i think is a decent comparison. Seriously, I have been flying minmatar for years. Stop whining and learn how to fly. Whenever a race doesn't have the best ship in a certain class they think they are entitled to it. why should a race have to spend 3 times as long training to be as effective as other races? Im not disputing that minmatar have some good ships...however the good to crap ratio compared to other races is borked (literally maybe 5 good ships max)
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:26:00 - [19] Originally by: ebonyivory why should a race have to spend 3 times as long training to be as effective as other races? yeah! boost ammar!
Alexander Sinclair	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:29:00 - [20] Edited by: Alexander Sinclair on 25/12/2008 19:30:21 Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: ebonyivory why should a race have to spend 3 times as long training to be as effective as other races? yeah! boost ammar! Ammarians should have longer train times, they rely on slaves to do to much of there work for them... j/king sorta...

MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:35:00 - [21] Originally by: Alexander Sinclair Edited by: Alexander Sinclair on 25/12/2008 19:30:21 Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: ebonyivory why should a race have to spend 3 times as long training to be as effective as other races? yeah! boost ammar! Ammarians should have longer train times, they rely on slaves to do to much of there work for them... j/king sorta... oh you must be new around here, ammar are the hardest race to skill for and CCP ignore them, they are totally the weakest race in eve. it's like the devs hate ammar.
Alexander Sinclair	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:38:00 - [22] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Alexander Sinclair Edited by: Alexander Sinclair on 25/12/2008 19:30:21 Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: ebonyivory why should a race have to spend 3 times as long training to be as effective as other races? yeah! boost ammar! Ammarians should have longer train times, they rely on slaves to do to much of there work for them... j/king sorta... oh you must be new around here, ammar are the hardest race to skill for and CCP ignore them, they are totally the weakest race in eve. it's like the devs hate ammar. My post was mostly in jest and facetiousness, I have a account made in 2003 but you are right I hardly played it.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:39:00 - [23] Originally by: Alexander Sinclair My post was mostly in jest and facetiousness, I have a account made in 2003 but you are right I hardly played it. don't worry mine was too, just echoing the past.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:46:00 - [24] I love the sp vs race ratio comparisons. Took me some 20mil+ sp as Amarr before I felt useful. At least 6mil+ in gunnery, maybe I "wasted" a mil or so getting Ogre II's but you had to rely on drones for so long during the nos-age.. it was pretty crucial to have on the Geddon etc. Having trained up all four races more or less dedicated, on four accounts, it's pretty much this way; Caldari and Gallente get useful from day one. In PvP as well as PvE. Minmatar, if you stay with the Rifter and get all t2'ed up, is fine really early too. You can somehwat argue that Amarr can do that with the Punisher. If we look past frigs, and assume you go for battleships, since they're the bread and butter for both PvP as well as ratting/missioning.. then the guy that said "x3" amounts of sp to be useful as Minmatar is somewhat reaching it. I'd go as far as saying as Amarr and Minmatar need x4-x5 times the amount of sp in comparison to Caldari and Gallente, to be useful to a similar extent. Then at the end of the day, the reward comes when you are well skilled as Amarr. Same goes for Minmatar btw. Oh, and this whole read needs to revive the old meme, lol, Amarr
Schwinger	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:46:00 - [25] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Yet you think you can reliably speak about ships you don't fly? Yes I do. My pure minmatar char is being 'rested' until further notice. Yes, they've got decent ships, but when every ship class can be outclassed by a gallente one, I don't even bother.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:54:00 - [26] Originally by: Schwinger Originally by: An Anarchyyt Yet you think you can reliably speak about ships you don't fly? Yes I do. OH OH, Well excuuuuse me princess.
yourdoingitwrong	Posted - 2008.12.25 20:14:00 - [27] Originally by: Onewingedangel I'd take a Naglfar any day of the week over a rev in a small to moderate sized fleet engagement. i stopped reading right here
Kurt Ambrose Caldari Point Blank.	Posted - 2008.12.25 20:20:00 - [28] Edited by: Kurt Ambrose on 25/12/2008 20:21:54 Originally by: ebonyivory 2)Hacs are crap 5)Recons are sub-par 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless (why spend 200mil on a polyvaga when youl get popped by a drake 0_o) 1) Vagabond is awesome 2) Rapier and Huginn are still nice 3) You dont need speed rigs to get a decent speed out of the vaga
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.25 20:38:00 - [29] Originally by: Kurt Ambrose Edited by: Kurt Ambrose on 25/12/2008 20:21:54 Originally by: ebonyivory 2)Hacs are crap 5)Recons are sub-par 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless (why spend 200mil on a polyvaga when youl get popped by a drake 0_o) 1) Vagabond is awesome 2) Rapier and Huginn are still nice 3) You dont need speed rigs to get a decent speed out of the vaga 1)paper tank 2)paper tank 3)paper tank ccp effectively nerfed their only realistic form of tanking (you cant armour tank a vaga or shield tank for that matter) sure they can zoom around at lululudicrous speeds but theyl get instapopped by just about anything
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.12.25 20:53:00 - [30] Originally by: ebonyivory ...sure they can zoom around at lululudicrous speeds but theyl get instapopped by just about anything... As opposed to pre "speed tanking boost" patch were they tanked godly, yes? Vagas speed tanked before patch, they still speed tank. Their tank has always been a buffer cushion-tank, tanked to the amount you thought you needed to get out, from when you started to take damage. The only difference is these days you actually need that cushion tank once in awhile, cause you get hit now ( for pathetic damage ) while zooooming around. The fact that the Vaga goes down like a sack of bricks once caught hasn't changed.

Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.12.25 21:02:00 - [31] Actually the Vagabond is still too fast. The rapier and huginn are still overpowered. You guys are just fail.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.25 21:07:00 - [32] Originally by: Pohbis Originally by: ebonyivory ...sure they can zoom around at lululudicrous speeds but theyl get instapopped by just about anything... As opposed to pre "speed tanking boost" patch were they tanked godly, yes? Vagas speed tanked before patch, they still speed tank. Their tank has always been a buffer cushion-tank, tanked to the amount you thought you needed to get out, from when you started to take damage. The only difference is these days you actually need that cushion tank once in awhile, cause you get hit now ( for pathetic damage ) while zooooming around. The fact that the Vaga goes down like a sack of bricks once caught hasn't changed. Pre nerf the vaga could speed tank and take no damage (except for maybe from light missiles) which was fine because it only took one neut and a couple of shots from a bs to pop you/a web. Now you cant speed tank because turrets will track you and your measly amount of ehp isnt enough to avoid being popped very quickly
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.25 21:34:00 - [33] Originally by: ebonyivory Originally by: Kurt Ambrose Edited by: Kurt Ambrose on 25/12/2008 20:21:54 Originally by: ebonyivory 2)Hacs are crap 5)Recons are sub-par 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless (why spend 200mil on a polyvaga when youl get popped by a drake 0_o) 1) Vagabond is awesome 2) Rapier and Huginn are still nice 3) You dont need speed rigs to get a decent speed out of the vaga 1)paper tank 2)paper tank 3)paper tank ccp effectively nerfed their only realistic form of tanking (you cant armour tank a vaga or shield tank for that matter) sure they can zoom around at lululudicrous speeds but theyl get instapopped by just about anything uhhh that's the idea hon, speed tanking.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.25 21:51:00 - [34] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: ebonyivory Originally by: Kurt Ambrose Edited by: Kurt Ambrose on 25/12/2008 20:21:54 Originally by: ebonyivory 2)Hacs are crap 5)Recons are sub-par 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless (why spend 200mil on a polyvaga when youl get popped by a drake 0_o) 1) Vagabond is awesome 2) Rapier and Huginn are still nice 3) You dont need speed rigs to get a decent speed out of the vaga 1)paper tank 2)paper tank 3)paper tank ccp effectively nerfed their only realistic form of tanking (you cant armour tank a vaga or shield tank for that matter) sure they can zoom around at lululudicrous speeds but theyl get instapopped by just about anything no its still paper even if your zooming around at lululudicrous speeds (which you cant do anymore anyways) you cant speed tank a vaga with an mwd because the sig increase will make you easy to pwn via missiles. You cant tank with an ab because its not fast enough to effectively avoid turret fire and outrun missile explosions. uhhh that's the idea hon, speed tanking.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.25 21:52:00 - [35] Originally by: ebonyivory uhhh that's the idea hon, speed tanking. I don't kno why you didn't say anything but my answer is, fit a tracking disruptor on your vaga.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.25 22:04:00 - [36] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: ebonyivory uhhh that's the idea hon, speed tanking. I don't kno why you didn't say anything but my answer is, fit a tracking disruptor on your vaga. ahh curses character depeltion. BAsically speed tasnking was fine pre nerf as you could shrugoff the dps while still being vunerable to web/neut. Now you cant speed tank using an mwd as sig radius makes u a prime target for larger guns and you cant speed tank with an ab because the dmaage reduction isnt enough to shrug off getting hit.
Jalif Black Sinisters	Posted - 2008.12.25 22:08:00 - [37] Edited by: Jalif on 25/12/2008 22:10:24 I do agree that minmatar is subbar compared to the other races I do agree that they need more SP then any other race I do agree that targetpainters need an improvement/chance But I don't agree they suck. Minmatar is the race that is able to dedicate range & pick their own fights. In exchange for that we have to suffer with lower DPS and a lesser tank. If your vega is owned by a drake you are pretty much -----> noob Vega doesn't need poly's, if you want to increase its damage output I suggest you use ambit extentions since your speed is fast enough. It is the fastest ship around beside interceptors. If a target is hitting you either have to retreat anyway or be smarter then him. You either use tracking disruptor drones or a tracking disruptor on the vega itself. Tbh... you are shortminded & just don't know how to pvp. ----> WOW is that way sir. PS: Vega got a boost since QR: - The only cruiser nano around - You don't have to be afraid for webs but for scrams (which have a lesser range) - You could basicly drift trough a web if you have enough speed. I did it myself with a stabber. Which wasn't possible before. CEO of Black Sinisters
Splash Whale Electric Monkey Overlords	Posted - 2008.12.25 22:14:00 - [38] Every race has some ships that need alot of SP to fly properly. Yes, all races. Now dont go comparing "this BS takes 2 times as long to train for then that BS" because it's called diversity. Minmatar has some pretty damn awesome ships out there which most of you probably dont even know how to use. Try thinking outside of the box and suddenly minmatar is the best race you can fly! they had a good period not too long ago where they excelled over most races in alot of areas, now all races are pretty much even. People say amarr is omgwtfgreat now because they have sucked a bit for some time and are actually on a level playing field now. No race is overpowered, no race sucks bigtime, no race is omgwtfpwn. I repeat, it's the power of thought that kills you, not the omgoverpowered ship the other race has. Everything can still counter everything ---- When in doubt, Ctrl-Q.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.25 22:38:00 - [39] Your telling me that minmatar doesnt suck when.... their caps are the worst (they are really i mean for example the nid has the same slot layout asa thantos but has worse stats on everything except speed) dual weapons systems are a pita and not as good assingle weapon systems split weapons ships take alot more time to train up for the only advantage they really had (speed) got nerfed dont give me all this "diversity" crap the truth is that in pvp in a straight up fight or a fleet fight minmatar ships do not do as well as others the only people that say minmatar doesnt suck or is atleast sub-par are the people who dont fly it which leads into the next point that the only reason ccp doesnt buff it is that minmatar are statically the least numerous of all the races so that means less paychecks for ccp
Maindi	Posted - 2008.12.25 22:49:00 - [40] Originally by: ebonyivory their caps are the worst (they are really i mean for example the nid has the same slot layout asa thantos but has worse stats on everything except speed) Have you ever flown a nidhoggur? Because it seems like you haven't. It gets darn good bonuses for repping which makes it a great support carrier (like carriers are supposed to be). Fit a triage mod to it and boom, you rep like a mofo. A nidhoggur can also tank like there's no tomorrow. The nid has its purposes and it has been really usefull for us atleast. Don't compare nid with thanatos because they have completely diffrent purposes and uses.

Sweet Laylah	Posted - 2008.12.25 22:52:00 - [41] Fail post for over-generalising. OP needs to stop eft craft, go fly said ships.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.25 23:03:00 - [42] Originally by: Maindi Originally by: ebonyivory their caps are the worst (they are really i mean for example the nid has the same slot layout asa thantos but has worse stats on everything except speed) Have you ever flown a nidhoggur? Because it seems like you haven't. It gets darn good bonuses for repping which makes it a great support carrier (like carriers are supposed to be). Fit a triage mod to it and boom, you rep like a mofo. A nidhoggur can also tank like there's no tomorrow. The nid has its purposes and it has been really usefull for us atleast. Don't compare nid with thanatos because they have completely diffrent purposes and uses. no really the nids tank is sub-par. No use havin all those nice rr bonuses if you get primaried and die first because you have a crappy tank
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.25 23:12:00 - [43] Originally by: ebonyivory (literally maybe 5 good ships max) - sabre - stabber and vagabond - rifter and jaguar - huricane - hyena - sleipnir - mamoth (2nd best indus meh) - claw (for fun) - scimtmar - rupture, maybe 5 max ? Fetchez la vache !
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.25 23:16:00 - [44] Originally by: Stab Wounds Actually the Vagabond is still too fast. The rapier and huginn are still overpowered. You guys are just fail. The vagabond reflect 6 month of my training so i can make it that fast. Go buy webs and neut if you can't handle them. Since I'm playing I saw 3 speed nerfs, one per year, just because of 50% Eve's players choosing Caldari, slowest of the slow guys in Eve. Adapt or die. Do Minnie complain about being **** at pve, still suposed to shield tank ? No. So stfu with speed nerfs please. Fetchez la vache !
NightmareX D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.25 23:34:00 - [45] Edited by: NightmareX on 25/12/2008 23:36:24 I'm writing this from my iPod Touch so i won't write much here. But i can say that the op sucks big time and have ABSOLUTELY NO idea on how Minmatar is. I have used a Tempest and a Vagabond for many many years, and i can say that those 2 ships are very nice as long you use the ships like they should be used. Stab Wounds, stop being an idiot and use another ship than a Drake, also use a ship that can kill Vagabonds, Rapiers and Huginns. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.25 23:38:00 - [46] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: ebonyivory (literally maybe 5 good ships max) - sabre - stabber and vagabond<---easy to pop for the isk you invest and easily outclassed by other races hacs - rifter and jaguar - huricane<---better dps than drake/myrm but sameish dps as harb with less ehp - hyena<---sbs are all round pretty useless nowadays - sleipnir - mamoth (2nd best indus meh)<----industry doesnt really figure into a combat related discussion (however id like to point out that the fenrirhas the least space of all the freighters) - claw (for fun)<---fun does not figure into a ship being good (just makes it enjoyable to play) - scimtmar - rupture, maybe<---rupture is admittedly the best cruiser of its class 5 max ? i count 5/6 there tbh also now lets look at the ships that minmatar has that are abysmal -naglfar<-split weapons makes for sucky dps and does more damage with unbonused lasers than projectiles -nidhoggur<---same slot layout as thanatos but worse in every way statically (the rr bonus isnt enough tomake up for this) -maelstrom/tempest<-sub par compared to pretty much every other bs of thier class -munnin<---outperformed by the hurricane -huggin/rapier<--paper tank and lack of useful bonuses makes for a useless ship i may have generalised abit however the main point is that minmatar ships are SUB-PAR compared to ships of other races. Lets have a look at caldaris good ships for example. -Falcon/rook<---ecm is god on the battlefield -Scorpion<--ecm is god (has better tank) -blackbird<---ecm is god (cheaper) -drake<---good rattingship ands can do reasonable dps -nighthawk<---more expensive drake and lsightly better and pve -raven<---great ratting ship and is also good at pvp -rokh<---good hybrid ship and can fit a pretty good tank at same time -crow<---perhaps the best ceptor availible -chimera<---good tank makes for better survivability in cap battles -phoenix<---can chose damage type and doesnt suffer from split weapon loldps so caldari have what 10 good ships without even having to think too hard
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.25 23:39:00 - [47] Originally by: ebonyivory Your telling me that minmatar doesnt suck when.... their caps are the worst (they are really i mean for example the nid has the same slot layout asa thantos but has worse stats on everything except speed) dual weapons systems are a pita and not as good assingle weapon systems split weapons ships take alot more time to train up for the only advantage they really had (speed) got nerfed Now on this I agree. The same on Nagflar and the trashbin-looking Typhoon : +5% rof/level on both weapon doesn't gives you the same dps as a +5% damage / +5% rof as on our huricane. At final, you'll have only +5% rof/level on your damage output. The Phoenix (caldari dread), for exemple, got +5% rof/level AND +5% damage on his damage output. Originally by: ebonyivory dont give me all this "diversity" crap the truth is that in pvp in a straight up fight or a fleet fight minmatar ships do not do as well as others the only people that say minmatar doesnt suck or is atleast sub-par are the people who dont fly it which leads into the next point that the only reason ccp doesnt buff it is that minmatar are statically the least numerous of all the races so that means less paychecks for ccp No. When you fly Minmatar, you have to learn : - the ships (same as everyone else) - proj weapons - basic ewar (our ewar sucks anyway so basic ewar is all what you'll have to train at least) The problems starts here : - shield tanking - armor tanking (wtf) - speed tanking Wtf we have to train all three : each ship have a different optimum tank. And then, because of lack of turrets (give the huricane its missing turret back, it's suposed to be a pure DPS ship, like the drake is suposed to be a pure tank ship) - drones - missiles weapons (wtf) etc. Minnie is hard mode since the begining of my Eve's carrier. Then what. Now i've got nearly all my skills maxed out, I can beat the best blasterthron (all skills 5, 1000dps+) in one of my tempest's setup. The training is just long. The funny thing my char became so versatile that if I want to switch to any ships I want, I can do training only 2-3 skills. Nobody can fly our ships that way. All skills 5 we have got great subcapital ships. The problem is gameplay design here. Our caps are crap. We know that. So what. Some have to have crap caps. Caps can't speedtank anyway. Fetchez la vache !
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.25 23:44:00 - [48] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: ebonyivory Your telling me that minmatar doesnt suck when.... their caps are the worst (they are really i mean for example the nid has the same slot layout asa thantos but has worse stats on everything except speed) dual weapons systems are a pita and not as good assingle weapon systems split weapons ships take alot more time to train up for the only advantage they really had (speed) got nerfed Now on this I agree. The same on Nagflar and the trashbin-looking Typhoon : +5% rof/level on both weapon doesn't gives you the same dps as a +5% damage / +5% rof as on our huricane. At final, you'll have only +5% rof/level on your damage output. The Phoenix (caldari dread), for exemple, got +5% rof/level AND +5% damage on his damage output. Originally by: ebonyivory dont give me all this "diversity" crap the truth is that in pvp in a straight up fight or a fleet fight minmatar ships do not do as well as others the only people that say minmatar doesnt suck or is atleast sub-par are the people who dont fly it which leads into the next point that the only reason ccp doesnt buff it is that minmatar are statically the least numerous of all the races so that means less paychecks for ccp No. When you fly Minmatar, you have to learn : - the ships (same as everyone else) - proj weapons - basic ewar (our ewar sucks anyway so basic ewar is all what you'll have to train at least) The problems starts here : - shield tanking - armor tanking (wtf) - speed tanking Wtf we have to train all three : each ship have a different optimum tank. And then, because of lack of turrets (give the huricane its missing turret back, it's suposed to be a pure DPS ship, like the drake is suposed to be a pure tank ship) - drones - missiles weapons (wtf) etc. Minnie is hard mode since the begining of my Eve's carrier. Then what. Now i've got nearly all my skills maxed out, I can beat the best blasterthron (all skills 5, 1000dps+) in one of my tempest's setup. The training is just long. The funny thing my char became so versatile that if I want to switch to any ships I want, I can do training only 2-3 skills. Nobody can fly our ships that way. All skills 5 we have got great subcapital ships. The problem is gameplay design here. Our caps are crap. We know that. So what. Some have to have crap caps. Caps can't speedtank anyway. why should we have crap caps...we should atleast get capable caps with no advantages but no crippling (read dual tanking and split weapons) disadvantages either. Sad to think that if ccp nerfed caldari thered be so many whines that ccp would fix in like a week >.> The onlyreason that minmatar are still nerfed is that ccp is too stubborn to admit that versatility isnt worth **** nowadays. (oh and the whole fewer minmatar players thing)
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.25 23:59:00 - [49] Originally by: ebonyivory -nidhoggur<---same slot layout as thanatos but worse in every way statically (the rr bonus isnt enough tomake up for this) Her tank is still better than the Chimera so it's not pure crap there. Tank matters on pvp carriers. Originally by: ebonyivory -maelstrom/tempest<-sub par compared to pretty much every other bs of thier class lol no. 1v1 any rigged blasterthron all skill 5 vs my tempest NOT all skill 5. And yes I worked a lot on eft+handmade tools to figure out a fit. A fleet tempest still have the best alpha of all tiers 2 bs so it's still the best tier 2 bs for fleet. Originally by: ebonyivory -munnin<---outperformed by the hurricane If you tell so. Only flough one time a munnin on the test server and it was crappy. Originally by: ebonyivory -huggin/rapier<--paper tank and lack of useful bonuses makes for a useless ship which recon can tank anyway ????? I forgot one of our major jewels, which is the minnie HIC. Originally by: ebonyivory i may have generalised abit however the main point is that minmatar ships are SUB-PAR compared to ships of other races. Lets have a look at caldaris good ships for example. -Falcon/rook<---ecm is god on the battlefield<---ecm will be nerfed very soon -Scorpion<--ecm is god (has better tank)<---ecm will be nerfed very soon -blackbird<---ecm is god (cheaper)<---ecm will be nerfed very soon -drake<---good rattingship ands can do reasonable dps<--- what reasonable dps ? reasonable like 250 dps ? lol. No a drake tanks very very very well, that is all. -nighthawk<---more expensive drake and lsightly better and pve -raven<---great ratting ship and is also good at pvp<---raven good at pvp ? Just, no. Extreme at pve ? Yes. Good at pvp ? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Show me a good fit. Not even a fleet fit (because missiles suck so muck in fleets), a good roaming fleet, for fun. It'll be outclassed by our crappy trashbin looking ship. -rokh<---good hybrid ship and can fit a pretty good tank at same time<---- agree, the Rokh is HTE _BBER (and i'd love to fly one) -crow<---perhaps the best ceptor availible<--- I dunno, even with missile nerf ? (that what made his strenght) -chimera<---good tank makes for better survivability in cap battles<--- wrong, chimera's tank is really the least good tank in all carrier, I worked 5 hours on this precise matter on eft for a caldari friend. Unless you fit officer mods of course. -phoenix<---can chose damage type and doesnt suffer from split weapon loldps<---phoenix is UBBER. Then what. so caldari have what 10 good ships without even having to think too hard Fetchez la vache !
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.26 00:05:00 - [50] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: ebonyivory (literally maybe 5 good ships max) - sabre - stabber and vagabond - rifter and jaguar - huricane - hyena - sleipnir - mamoth (2nd best indus meh) - claw (for fun) - scimtmar - rupture, maybe 5 max ? Add the Claymore as well with it's gang mods.

Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 00:05:00 - [51] Originally by: ebonyivory why should we have crap caps...we should atleast get capable caps with no advantages but no crippling (read dual tanking and split weapons) disadvantages either. Sad to think that if ccp nerfed caldari thered be so many whines that ccp would fix in like a week >.> The onlyreason that minmatar are still nerfed is that ccp is too stubborn to admit that versatility isnt worth **** nowadays. (oh and the whole fewer minmatar players thing) Caldari carrier is the crappiest carrier for PVP. Minmatar dread is the crappiest dread. Minmatar mothership is I don't know crappier or not. Minnie's titan is the harder to figure out usefull ship in the game (I think the leviathan is < to the ragnarok but I don't know very much). My ranking in titans is leviathan < ragnarok = erebus < avatar but the decision to craft this or this titan is made by people that are way above me in an alliance hierachy anyway. Fetchez la vache !
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 00:08:00 - [52] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: ebonyivory (literally maybe 5 good ships max) (...) 5 max ? Add the Claymore as well with it's gang mods. Yes, and the Broadsword. We have the best hid/dictors. Fetchez la vache !
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 00:17:00 - [53] for astart alpha is useless these days as its hard to alpha anything bigger than a cruiser and the appaling rof and tiny ammo capacity makes artillery the worst of the sniping guns. The onyx can fit a better tank than the broadsword. The chimera can out tank a nid (no rly) in the short term (which is more important as you will need to rely on other caps to rep you (which may take precious seconds). Also the chimera is better for being remote repped as the resistance bonuses make for more ehp added per remote rep cycle. Blasters suck atm so its no use comparing them them....trying lazors instead i think youl find you get your arse handed to you.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 00:21:00 - [54] Ok i see you guys wisdom and bow to it. Lets make this into a boost artillery/large acs/munnin/nidhoggur/naglfar/split weapons system/longer training time/split tanking on caps/speed/falloff crappiness thread instead. I mean its not like any of these affect the minmatar in any way shape or form.. /sarcasm off
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.26 00:29:00 - [55] Read the news dude. The empress sis fixing minmatar by herself! ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 00:33:00 - [56] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 00:36:11 Originally by: ebonyivory Edited by: ebonyivory on 26/12/2008 00:18:05 for astart alpha is useless these days as its hard to alpha anything bigger than a cruiser and the appaling rof and tiny ammo capacity makes artillery the worst of the sniping guns. I don't care about Gallente having crap ships or not... Astarte is Gallente. And it's not artillery. Linkage Originally by: ebonyivory The onyx can fit a better tank than the broadsword. I dunno, did not study, if you say so. Originally by: ebonyivory The chimera can out tank a nid (no rly) in the short term (which is more important as you will need to rely on other caps to rep you (which may take precious seconds). I won't sustain your wonderfull outtank capapilities enough to hold a full traige mode, stop dreaming. Originally by: ebonyivory Also the chimera is better for being remote repped as the resistance bonuses make for more ehp added per remote rep cycle. Just, well... LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL Resistance bonuses. Every ships have them. the Chimera can't fit a sensor booster or a point without breaking his tank. It have problems sustaining more than one triage mode without breaking his tank. Claiming "he is the best to be assisted" is a non argument. First if it have to be assisted it's not a "that great omg I tank alone" ship. Second, show me brute numbers. The best tank I had for chimera with best named/t2 gear is < to any other carrier, for ehp rep per seconds, for traige mode it can hold AND for basic ewar. Remember, no sensor boosters or points on Chimera's fits. Other carrier can and does. -edit- the only reason people love the Chimera is them having allready Caldari BS 5 and lazy to choose Archons. If I remember well and if the balancing didn't change this since 6 month ago, Archons is the best pvp carrier, followed by Nig or Thanatos then Chimera. Play with eft if you don't beleive me. Fetchez la vache !
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 00:47:00 - [57] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 00:36:11 Originally by: ebonyivory Edited by: ebonyivory on 26/12/2008 00:18:05 for astart alpha is useless these days as its hard to alpha anything bigger than a cruiser and the appaling rof and tiny ammo capacity makes artillery the worst of the sniping guns. I don't care about Gallente having crap ships or not... Astarte is Gallente. And it's not artillery. Linkage Originally by: ebonyivory The onyx can fit a better tank than the broadsword. I dunno, did not study, if you say so. Originally by: ebonyivory The chimera can out tank a nid (no rly) in the short term (which is more important as you will need to rely on other caps to rep you (which may take precious seconds). I won't sustain your wonderfull outtank capapilities enough to hold a full traige mode, stop dreaming. Originally by: ebonyivory Also the chimera is better for being remote repped as the resistance bonuses make for more ehp added per remote rep cycle. Just, well... LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL Resistance bonuses. Every ships have them. the Chimera can't fit a sensor booster or a point without breaking his tank. It have problems sustaining more than one triage mode without breaking his tank. Claiming "he is the best to be assisted" is a non argument. First if it have to be assisted it's not a "that great omg I tank alone" ship. Second, show me brute numbers. The best tank I had for chimera with best named/t2 gear is < to any other carrier, for ehp rep per seconds, for traige mode it can hold AND for basic ewar. Remember, no sensor boosters or points on Chimera's fits. Other carrier can and does. -edit- the only reason people love the Chimera is them having allready Caldari BS 5 and lazy to choose Archons. If I remember well and if the balancing didn't change this since 6 month ago, Archons is the best pvp carrier, followed by Nig or Thanatos then Chimera. Play with eft if you don't beleive me. You dont know much about caps do you? YOu dont EVER fit a triage on a cap if you dont wana be lolled off the battlefield. This is because it stops you deploying fighters which is half of the reason why carriers are used. You do not fit a point on your capital for gods sake thats what support is for. Those extra 20-25% resistance means you effectively take 25% less dmg and each remote rep cycle is 25% more potent (topping up your ehp an extra 25%) which is crucial to spider tanking. The nidhoggur does not have the xtra 5% reistances per lvl which effectively makes its tank weaker in comparison. Carriers were built to spider tank which is kinda why they get to use capital remote reps. Since capitals are used in big fleet fights when you can be alphad or almost alphad by dreads means that caps have to use their remote reps to quickly rep up anyone taking damage. Eft doesnt figure in fleetsupport or remote reps. Trust me i know a reasonable bit about fleet fights and generally speaking its goes something like chimera-archon>>>>>>thanatos>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>nidhoggur
Onewingedangel Minmatar MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.12.26 01:09:00 - [58] Edited by: Onewingedangel on 26/12/2008 01:13:45 Edited by: Onewingedangel on 26/12/2008 01:10:51 Stop talking out of both sides of your mouth ebony. You say caps are built to spidertank, yet the best spider tanking cap you say sucks. Why should the cap with the best remote rep ability have the best tank? Logically, it should have the weakest as it has the greatest ability to help others. Making statements like a cap should never fit this or a ship should never fit that, is probably why you are running into problems. There is no do or don't, there are situations that you must adapt to and fit for. http://killboard.mass-alliance.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=2526 Theres the paper tanked Rapier you're talking about. Add up the damage, respectable tank. Also, I can easily see how one could put a ******ed shield tank on a vaga. Stop using a cookie cutter and start using your imagination and the versatility and greatness of Minmatar will become obvious to you.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 01:11:00 - [59] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 01:11:55 Originally by: ebonyivory You dont know much about caps do you? Yes, I don't know very much caps. Never flew, just destroys them. Originally by: ebonyivory YOu dont EVER fit a triage on a cap if you dont wana be lolled off the battlefield. This is because it stops you deploying fighters which is half of the reason why carriers are used. (...) Carriers were built to spider tank which is kinda why they get to use capital remote reps. Since capitals are used in big fleet fights when you can be alphad or almost alphad by dreads means that caps have to use their remote reps to quickly rep up anyone taking damage. I fail to see your logic here. Triage mode pwns everything to spider tank. You say carriers are builts to use spider tanking. So they are to use triage. Anyway... Originally by: ebonyivory You do not fit a point on your capital for gods sake thats what support is for. Removing a takling ship also help you tanking better. \o/ Every carrier I flew with had a triage + point or at least a sensor booster if not chimeras. Somebody who flew all four carrier and breaked a lot said that Chimeras were the least effective pvp carrier out of the four. Originally by: ebonyivory Those extra 20-25% resistance means you effectively take 25% less dmg and each remote rep cycle is 25% more potent (topping up your ehp an extra 25%) which is crucial to spider tanking. The nidhoggur does not have the xtra 5% reistances per lvl which effectively makes its tank weaker in comparison. Chimera is the only carrier to shield tank. She still have to capacitor tank with the same said med slots. So no sensor booster (which you said its no problem). So it can't target anything before it blows (to remote rep) or kill anything since you are target in 20 secs or so. And no point mean even if it lock something it can't deploy fighters to attack, target will w/o. Originally by: ebonyivory Eft doesnt figure in fleetsupport or remote reps. It does. :) Originally by: ebonyivory Trust me i know a reasonable bit about fleet fights and generally speaking its goes something like chimera-archon>>>>>>thanatos>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>nidhoggur Alpha is not very usefull in fleets... The Chimera is crap. I'll show you numbers by the second I grab my eft computer (tomorow). Fetchez la vache !
Torlin Valric Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.12.26 01:13:00 - [60] Originally by: ebonyivory The onyx can fit a better tank than the broadsword. That could be true, but does it make the broadsword a crap ship? Because that's what you been going on about, minmatar ships suck. Is it so difficult for you to admit that the broadsword is a good ship?

ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 01:13:00 - [61] Originally by: Onewingedangel Edited by: Onewingedangel on 26/12/2008 01:10:51 Stop talking out of both sides of your mouth ebony. You say caps are built to spidertank, yet the best spider tanking cap you say sucks. Why should the cap with the best remote rep ability have the best tank? Logically, it should have the weakest as it has the greatest ability to help others. Making statements like a cap should never fit this or a ship should never fit that, is probably why you are running into problems. There is no do or don't, there are situations that you must adapt to and fit for. http://killboard.mass-alliance.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=2526 Theres the paper tanked Rapier you're talking about. Add up the damage, respectable tank. Also, I can easily see how one could put a ******ed shield tank on a vaga. caps dont fit triage (no rly) it kills their drones/fighters so no dps caps are built to spider tank....the nid has the weakest tank but has the best rr ability...last time i checked rr doesnt heal your own shield/armour so therefore since nids have the worst tank they always get primaried and popped.
Onewingedangel Minmatar MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.12.26 01:15:00 - [62] The OP doesn't care if minmatar have good ships, he just whines because they are not the "best."
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 01:21:00 - [63] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 01:24:45 Originally by: Torlin Valric Originally by: ebonyivory The onyx can fit a better tank than the broadsword. That could be true, but does it make the broadsword a crap ship? Because that's what you been going on about, minmatar ships suck. Is it so difficult for you to admit that the broadsword is a good ship? It's difficult for him to admit that minnie have fair ships, crap ships and best ships. I think, without being sure, he would want the best ships in all categories. (we allready pwn tech I small and medium categories, pwned a lot of small and medium tech 2 categories). Fetchez la vache !
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 01:23:00 - [64] Originally by: ebonyivory caps dont fit triage (no rly) it kills their drones/fighters so no dps caps are built to spider tank....the nid has the weakest tank but has the best rr ability...last time i checked rr doesnt heal your own shield/armour so therefore since nids have the worst tank they always get primaried and popped. - logistics can't dps very well - nids don't have the worst tank, it's the... tada \o/ chimera !! I'll show you brute numbers tomorow. Fetchez la vache !
Onewingedangel Minmatar MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.12.26 01:24:00 - [65] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: Torlin Valric Originally by: ebonyivory The onyx can fit a better tank than the broadsword. That could be true, but does it make the broadsword a crap ship? Because that's what you been going on about, minmatar ships suck. Is it so difficult for you to admit that the broadsword is a good ship? It's difficult for him to admit that minnuie have fair ships, crap ships and best ships. I think, without being sure, he would want the best ships in all categories. It's called the raven disorder, most often exhibited by caldari pilots obviously. Common symptoms are "OMG I can't solo ship x in my Raven, blah blah blah nerf blah blah blah unbalanced blah blah blah boost." This is a rare but deadly Minmatar mutation, very dangerous.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 01:27:00 - [66] Originally by: Onewingedangel Common symptoms are "OMG I can't solo ship x in my Raven, blah blah blah nerf blah blah blah unbalanced blah blah blah boost." Raven can't solo anything played by a human anyway :) Lacks of points/web. Fetchez la vache !
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 01:47:00 - [67] Edited by: ebonyivory on 26/12/2008 01:48:30 ok id like to make 1 thing clear....i dont want minmatar ships to be the best out of everything (would be nice ofc) id just like them to be able to compete at the same lvl as other ships of their class oh and i just drew some stuff up on eft (all t2 ofc and no triage you noob youl do no dps!!!!) chimera has 1.3mil ehp nid has 1.07mil ehp nid has 2.8k burst tank caldari has 5.4k burst tank fittings are as follows nid hi's 2 large smarties 2 capital armour rrs 1 dcu mid's 2 sensor boosters 3 cap rechargers low's 2 eanms 1 armour explosive hardener 1 dcu 2 capital armour reps chimera hi's 2 capital shield reps 2 large smarties 1 dcu mid's 1 capital shield booster 2 boost amps 3 invulns 1 sensor booster low's 3 cap fluxes 1 dcu so yeah... (althoguh my fits may not be brilliant they give a basic idea of tanking capabilities) ninjaedit: i fly minmatar (used to fly vaga) now im solely confined to flying a hurricane/sleipner until i finish training harbinger which does practically the same dps with more ehp.
Onewingedangel Minmatar MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.12.26 04:35:00 - [68] Edited by: Onewingedangel on 26/12/2008 04:36:03
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.12.26 11:39:00 - [69] /signed partially. pest, snipers, capitals, haulers, dual weapon systems (cept typhoon), mining ships could all use work. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.12.26 12:04:00 - [70] Originally by: Onewingedangel Minmatar capitols do not suck, the Nid is the best support carrier in the game, and what are carriers there for? Support. The remote repping bonus is a huge advantage in combat and the subpar capitol tank doesn't mean ** if you aren't the primary. Secondly, a lack of a damage bonus is no real issue as many pilots assign fighters anyway, thus negating any damage bonus. The Naglfar is just plain cool. OMG a REV can out tank and out dps it, who cares. I'd take a Naglfar any day of the week over a rev in a small to moderate sized fleet engagement. why would you take the nag? Also nid will get primaried in every fleet engagement with a smart fc and then having lowwer res will be a problem as the spider repping won't be as effective. Even in sub capital battles once the enemy support is down you will be next to go and it's kinda hard to remote rep yourself though you could try repping support before the enemy focus fire insta kills it. Originally by:** Onewingedangel They typhoon is awesome, 2 neut 2 nos 4 cruise + tackle/cap injector in mids + crazy armor tank in lows owns, with good skills you will be able to solo a Dominix, although it will be a close fight. Also, the typhoon is wonderfully versatile. Just because it can't go 10billion k/sec anymore doesn't mean it sucks. The tempest is flipping awesome. It's guns don't use cap, which means in a plated setup you have FIVE MID SLOTS to do whatever you want with. The tempest is a big hurricane. The maelstrom is awesome, and a big cyclone. Hell, the maelstrom I think is the worst minmatar ship there is, and I say that because it does not fly like a minmatar ship. It feels quite Amarr [slow as **] and it does nothing but tank and damage, like Amarr. Split weapons do not suck, hurricane for instance you can put a full rack of arties then 2 assault missile launchers+drones to handle tacklers. You can do the same on the tempest if you so desire. Split weapons offer versatility. Which is the advantage you have when flying minmatar. No other race matches minmatar versatility**. That in itself is a great strength. hurricane and tempest are not dual weapon ships they have extra hardpoints for different weapons but they are bonus focused for one type. Seriously though domi is more versatility than the phoon since it has it's strong drones to rely on phoon will need to rely on 2 of it's 3 weapon systems to catch up in damage, and domi has more drone bay for utility drones or spares. As for tempest using no cap having 2 spare high slots the raven does that as well and has missiles which have much more versatility than projectiles (can switch damage types and t2 missiles). Yes many of our ships are versatile and have the spare mids/lows for different types of setups we may be most versatily overall but we don't have the most versatile ships and it isn't enough to make us extremely powerful. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls

Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 12:06:00 - [71] Originally by: ebonyivory (all t2 ofc and no triage you noob youl do no dps!!!!) Use triage damnit. In my book it's DCU that are lol modules. Carriers are suposed to : 1-remote rep 2-tank 3-maybe if they are not under fire and can use drones, dps. So use triage because of priorities #1 and #2. I'll show you my numbers this afternoon. Originally by: ebonyivory so yeah... (althoguh my fits may not be brilliant they give a basic idea of tanking capabilities) They aren't. First you lack of rigs. Second, it lacks important information, how long can you sustain your tank under fire for exemple. Wait 'til ~16h, I'll show you. Fetchez la vache !
Jalif Black Sinisters	Posted - 2008.12.26 12:31:00 - [72] Edited by: Jalif on 26/12/2008 12:31:39 Triage or not Dual weapon systems or not Guys... really... STFU! First off all the OP fails flying a vega against a drake. While he has the ability to escape any engagement. But doesn't mean they dirrectly need 10x boosts. YOU JUST *FAIL* Everybody knows that minmatar has some faults at this very moment but they are far from being **. If you don't like minmatar, you go train for another race. What is holding you up? CEO of Black Sinisters**
Pesadel0 Minmatar Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.12.26 12:32:00 - [73] I highly dough that a minmatar carrier reps better than another race carrier ,why?Because it depletes its cap faster and it has the lower Cap of them all. Tempest Was good like 2 years ago when alfa really was cool,but after the HP boost and the laser boost ,i prefer my apoc in a fleet to a tempest why?Because it has better range ,no reloading and almost near as much alfa. The final nail in the coffin was the speed nerf ,it completely f**** our ability to do guerilla warfare.
Grarr Dexx Amarr Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 12:59:00 - [74] Edited by: Grarr Dexx on 26/12/2008 13:01:34 Originally by: Pesadel0 I highly dough that a minmatar carrier reps better than another race carrier ,why?Because it depletes its cap faster and it has the lower Cap of them all. Tempest Was good like 2 years ago when alfa really was cool,but after the HP boost and the laser boost ,i prefer my apoc in a fleet to a tempest why?Because it has better range ,no reloading and almost near as much alfa. The final nail in the coffin was the speed nerf ,it completely f** our ability to do guerilla warfare. Baww. Minmatar carrier has least tank but best and most versatile RR = instant primary. If another capital suddenly was given superior rep force to the nidhoggur, that would become primary instead and all of a sudden we'd have capital x sucks whines. Tempest is still good: dual damage boost, two free utility slots for remote repair/neuting goodness, and plenty of mid/lowslots to fit it as an ECCM'ing armor-buffered death dealer. And then on the point of the speednerf: Vagabond still reaches superior speeds and is still able to escape at will (atleast this time it won't be faster than an interceptor), Rapier/Huginn are still cloaking ***es of web-death who are also able to engage/disengage at will due to their superior range, and Muninn... well, you still have the Hurricane for that. ----- Nexus stamps of approvalÖ count: 1
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 13:02:00 - [75] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 12:21:05 Originally by: ebonyivory (all t2 ofc and no triage you noob youl do no dps!!!!) Use triage damnit. In my book it's DCU that are lol modules. Triage is their role. Use it. Carriers are suposed to : 1-remote rep 2-tank 3-maybe if they are not under fire and can use drones, dps. So use triage because of priorities #1 and #2. I'll show you my numbers this afternoon. Originally by: ebonyivory so yeah... (althoguh my fits may not be brilliant they give a basic idea of tanking capabilities) They aren't. First you lack of rigs. Second, it lacks important information, how long can you sustain your tank under fire for exemple. Wait 'til ~16h, I'll show you. -edit- you made me doubt about what I told anyway. -edit2- btw, it's not ehp fits you made. You'd structure tank if it were ehp dedicated fits. ok one thing .....i did not lose my vaga to a drake i was just summing up the current situation heres how fleet fights work.... dreads and support shoots other capitals capitals send off their drones and then rr otherwise capitals really wouldnt be very useful as the enemy fleet would target your dreads with their capitals and eliminate your dps by my calculations using my fits you can fit a triage on a chimera anyways with a +5 implant (you shoud be able to use those when ur in a capital anyways). ofc if you throw in rigs say trimarks for the nid and field extenders for the chimera you get 1.7mil ehp for the chimera and 1.3mil ehp for the nid and you still have the 6k rep cycle for the chimera compared to the 3k for the nid.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 13:07:00 - [76] Originally by: Grarr Dexx Edited by: Grarr Dexx on 26/12/2008 13:01:34 Originally by: Pesadel0 I highly dough that a minmatar carrier reps better than another race carrier ,why?Because it depletes its cap faster and it has the lower Cap of them all. Tempest Was good like 2 years ago when alfa really was cool,but after the HP boost and the laser boost ,i prefer my apoc in a fleet to a tempest why?Because it has better range ,no reloading and almost near as much alfa. The final nail in the coffin was the speed nerf ,it completely f** our ability to do guerilla warfare. Baww. Minmatar carrier has least tank but best and most versatile RR = instant primary. If another capital suddenly was given superior rep force to the nidhoggur, that would become primary instead and all of a sudden we'd have capital x sucks whines. Tempest is still good: dual damage boost, two free utility slots for remote repair/neuting goodness, and plenty of mid/lowslots to fit it as an ECCM'ing armor-buffered death dealer. And then on the point of the speednerf: Vagabond still reaches superior speeds and is still able to escape at will (atleast this time it won't be faster than an interceptor), Rapier/Huginn are still cloaking ***es of web-death who are also able to engage/disengage at will due to their superior range, and Muninn... well, you still have the Hurricane for that. so why not make the nid better at rring....atleast if its gona die it may aswell do some good. boosting it to 7.5% would be great and then the nid would be pretty awesome. Along with maybe some grid changes. Also the nid has a smaller drone bay and lower sensor strength.
Grarr Dexx Amarr Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 13:26:00 - [77] Originally by: ebonyivory Originally by: Grarr Dexx Edited by: Grarr Dexx on 26/12/2008 13:01:34 Originally by: Pesadel0 I highly dough that a minmatar carrier reps better than another race carrier ,why?Because it depletes its cap faster and it has the lower Cap of them all. Tempest Was good like 2 years ago when alfa really was cool,but after the HP boost and the laser boost ,i prefer my apoc in a fleet to a tempest why?Because it has better range ,no reloading and almost near as much alfa. The final nail in the coffin was the speed nerf ,it completely f** our ability to do guerilla warfare. Baww. Minmatar carrier has least tank but best and most versatile RR = instant primary. If another capital suddenly was given superior rep force to the nidhoggur, that would become primary instead and all of a sudden we'd have capital x sucks whines. Tempest is still good: dual damage boost, two free utility slots for remote repair/neuting goodness, and plenty of mid/lowslots to fit it as an ECCM'ing armor-buffered death dealer. And then on the point of the speednerf: Vagabond still reaches superior speeds and is still able to escape at will (atleast this time it won't be faster than an interceptor), Rapier/Huginn are still cloaking ***es of web-death who are also able to engage/disengage at will due to their superior range, and Muninn... well, you still have the Hurricane for that. so why not make the nid better at rring....atleast if its gona die it may aswell do some good. boosting it to 7.5% would be great and then the nid would be pretty awesome. Along with maybe some grid changes. Also the nid has a smaller drone bay and lower sensor strength. Armor tank it, fit ECCM. It can already adequately rep both armor and shield, it does not need a buff. ----- Nexus stamps of approvalÖ count: 1
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 13:56:00 - [78] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 13:58:23 Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 13:57:47 Originally by: ebonyivory by my calculations using my fits you can fit a triage on a chimera anyways with a +5 implant (you shoud be able to use those when ur in a capital anyways). A triage mode last 10m. Your tank alone last 2 minutes 20, 53s using rr. -No point (meaning if target warps out, 5 minutes without drones) -Shield tanks (meaning no buffer when primaried, no buffer at end of warp with low capa) Fetchez la vache !
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 14:04:00 - [79] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 13:58:23 Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 13:57:47 Originally by: ebonyivory by my calculations using my fits you can fit a triage on a chimera anyways with a +5 implant (you shoud be able to use those when ur in a capital anyways). A triage mode last 10m. Your tank alone last 2 minutes 20, 53s using rr. -No point (meaning if target warps out, 5 minutes without drones) -Shield tanks (meaning no buffer when primaried, no buffer at end of warp with low capa) ok your either a very good troll or a carebear....which is it? you do not fit points on carriers in a fleet battle u noob shield tanks provide a buffer u tool no buffer at end of warp??? wtf are you on about its the same thing with armour tanks (they require cap too)
Pesadel0 Minmatar Vagabundos	Posted - 2008.12.26 14:16:00 - [80] Originally by: Grarr Dexx Edited by: Grarr Dexx on 26/12/2008 13:01:34 Originally by: Pesadel0 I highly dough that a minmatar carrier reps better than another race carrier ,why?Because it depletes its cap faster and it has the lower Cap of them all. Tempest Was good like 2 years ago when alfa really was cool,but after the HP boost and the laser boost ,i prefer my apoc in a fleet to a tempest why?Because it has better range ,no reloading and almost near as much alfa. The final nail in the coffin was the speed nerf ,it completely f** our ability to do guerilla warfare. Baww. Minmatar carrier has least tank but best and most versatile RR = instant primary. If another capital suddenly was given superior rep force to the nidhoggur, that would become primary instead and all of a sudden we'd have capital x sucks whines. Tempest is still good: dual damage boost, two free utility slots for remote repair/neuting goodness, and plenty of mid/lowslots to fit it as an ECCM'ing armor-buffered death dealer. And then on the point of the speednerf: Vagabond still reaches superior speeds and is still able to escape at will (atleast this time it won't be faster than an interceptor), Rapier/Huginn are still cloaking ***es of web-death who are also able to engage/disengage at will due to their superior range, and Muninn... well, you still have the Hurricane for that. Man nigs are primary not because of its rr but because it has the weakeast thank and if you start your tank when being attacked and your try to rr another carrier you are a dead carrier.In my opinion they should give the minmatar carrier a bigger boost to RR so that it can axcel in that and to not be a so-so in RR. Why do you think nag are primaries too?Because they are shiat ,yes they are vertical ,but they still need some love i would give them 4 highs to put arties. Yes tempest is still good but she is not the alfa king , i still remember back in the day ,when a fleet of tempests would instil fear in the enemy's. Erm vaga was good ,now it is a sub par ship that doest really excel at anything ,i compare it to the curse after the nos nerf .IT is still fun ship to fly but it has lost it¦s charm.

Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 14:28:00 - [81] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 14:48:32 Originally by: ebonyivory you do not fit points on carriers in a fleet battle u noob Your target warps out, 5 minutes without drones cause they follow. Originally by: ebonyivory shield tanks provide a buffer u tool Which buffer ? Honor buffer ? "Got an name starting by x" buffer ? When you are shooted at, you're attacked on your primary tank so you need fast reaction (in a fleet fight, fast like, say, 10 second module activation lag ?) to open capital shield reps. You've got those 10 seconds by armor tanking. Originally by: ebonyivory no buffer at end of warp??? wtf are you on about its the same thing with armour tanks (they require cap too) No, you got the useless shield to be destroyed. The time it's destroyed you can cap tank enough to go back to 90% cap and starting active tanking. In carebear alnd without lag, you start tanking at 75% capa end of warp. In the same world, you start armor tanking at 90% capa. You've got a lot of experience mr know-it-all-in-fleet-fight alpha-is-useless-in-fleet shield-tank-is-great-on-caps-in-fleets there-no-lag-in-fleet. You made me a troll now. Your useless nber tank can sustain 2 minutes without doing anything else than tank. 53s using rr. Work on this. And btw you have better result using pds on your silly fits. When it comes to triage, Chimera is a piece of **. When it comes to fleet fight, shield tanking, esp on caps, is a piece of **. -edit5- If you want a great fit for Chimera, start looking at this : Damage Control II 'Cartel' Power Diagnostic System I 'Cartel' Power Diagnostic System I 'Cartel' Power Diagnostic System I Capital Shield Booster I Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II 'Glycerine' Shield Boost Amplifier 'Glycerine' Shield Boost Amplifier Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I,Cap Booster 800 Cap Recharger II Triage Module I Capital Shield Transporter I 'Warhammer' Large EMP Smartbomb I 'Warhammer' Large EMP Smartbomb I 'Warhammer' Large EMP Smartbomb I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Semiconductor Memory Cell II Semiconductor Memory Cell II Fetchez la vache !
Mickey Simon Noir.	Posted - 2008.12.26 14:49:00 - [82] I've faced a fair few Minni ships, and most of them are fine. Obviously, the same as in any race, there's a few people who can't pilot for crap and think that Minni ships are terrible and need a boost. This is not the case, they're fine as is; same as most other ships. Meanwhile, on the other side of town . . .
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.12.26 14:50:00 - [83] triage is pretty much suicide, you can't recieve remote reps when you are in triage and as nid you'll be primary. You may be able to tank 4 times better with triage but that's not as useful as having 10 friend rep you. Also 25% res > 25% bonus to rep amount, 25% res is a 33% increase to all incoming rep.... ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 14:57:00 - [84] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 15:05:37 Originally by: Typhado3 triage is pretty much suicide, you can't recieve remote reps when you are in triage and as nid you'll be primary. You may be able to tank 4 times better with triage but that's not as useful as having 10 friend rep you. Also 25% res > 25% bonus to rep amount, 25% res is a 33% increase to all incoming rep.... - You don't have always have 10 friends shield rr you, esp in fleets. - Who said it's automatic triage mode when entering the battlefield. You have to choose between triage or a dcu, sorry, i take the triage just in case. I don't care doing 100 dps more. Man it's a rifter !!! - The Chimera bonus is >. But the Chimera in itself, by shield tanking, removes all the benefit of this bonus. Yes, of course, in theory, the Chimera have better tank. In pratic, capital shield tanking in fleet is crap. Fetchez la vache !
arbiter reformed Minmatar Systematic Chaos.	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:09:00 - [85] Edited by: arbiter reformed on 26/12/2008 15:11:46 Edited by: arbiter reformed on 26/12/2008 15:10:18 this is turning into an argument about triage, triage has its uses and is a very powerfull but underated mod, as for the rest of minmitar ships, some are great, tempest, phoon, some are the best in there class, sabre broadsword etc not everything will be win all the time weve just had 2 years of domination the game is far more balanced now ps fuking slepnir is win, and claymore has the best subcap tank in game can get up to like 20k dps tanked pps the naglfar needs work tho but i t s f u k i n g v e r t i c a l
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:14:00 - [86] Originally by: arbiter reformed Edited by: arbiter reformed on 26/12/2008 15:11:46 Edited by: arbiter reformed on 26/12/2008 15:10:18 this is turning into an argument about triage, triage has its uses and is a very powerfull but underated mod, as for the rest of minmitar ships, some are great, tempest, phoon, some are the best in there class, sabre broadsword etc not everything will be win all the time weve just had 2 years of domination the game is far more balanced now ps fuking slepnir is win, and claymore has the best subcap tank in game can get up to like 20k dps tanked pps the naglfar needs work tho but i t s f u k i n g v e r t i c a l I'm plussifying you. We have great small ships, great medium ship. So-so large and crap caps. Anyway, training minnie you'll have to train a lot less things to enter any other bs or cap. Fetchez la vache !
Toshiro Khan Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:17:00 - [87] So many flawed arguments on both sides.. It can not be denied that the Minmatar do have some good ships and some great ships. However the majority are sub par and the weakest of their class. Carrier wise: They have the worst of the bunch, to say that the Nidhoggur has a better tank then a Chimera is silly. It doesn't... The Nid has the worst tank of all the carriers, it really doesn't have anything going for it other then its speed, which on a cap ship makes no difference. And any cap ship pilot worth his salt never fits the triage mod, to throw that into any argument means you have lost the argument before it starts as it shows that you don't have any idea what you are talking about. The Minmatar have the best alpha strike in the game: That may have been true several years ago before, but its not any more. The Apoc with tachs has a better alpha strike. (there is a excel chart some where about showing this.. but its boxing day and i have better things to do then go searching for it.) Split weapon systems: Do not make a ship better as it allows for versatility. As shown in the case of the Nag when it preforms better using capital lasers turrets. That just shows the ship is broken. Higher skill requirements then all the other races: To be a truly effective Matari pilot you need to train three weapon systems (turrets, missiles and drones.) and three forms of tanking (Armour, shield and speed) yet the majority of the ships are the worst of their class. However, two minor points.. Why are people doing that age old cruiser Vs battle cruiser rubbish. Hacs for the most are half way between a cruiser and a battle cruiser. So yes a drake vs a vaga hurts.. Scourge (in its variants hurt due to the resists on a Vaga) forcing it to run. Running away = Losing. It may not leave a killmail, but its still losing. Yet is still a hit and run Cruiser going against Heavy tanked Battle cruiser. Secondly, being able to dictate range means nothing these days.. More so when other ships out gun and out damage the vast majority (if not all the time) across the entire operational range of Minmatar ships. Yes, Minmatar need a boost to bring a lot of their ships in line with the others due to the high skill requirements need by the race as a whole. Being a jack of all trades, means poor at everything in Eve. But with all the flaws and weaknesses the Minmatar do have some great ships, the preform their job rather if not exceptionally well. You just have to throw away the bumper book of cookie cutter set up, and change with each patch. For example speed tanking maybe out of the window.. But throw in some sig reduction love, and things become a little more rosy. (<3 the claymores bonuses) you just have to find the best way to work with the ships. But sadly, for the most the Matari ships do suffer with being the worst of their classes. And the Vaga is still a great ship, it may not be the overpowered hac it was before (sorry but a cruiser that is faster then a interceptor it broken.. no matter how people try and justify it. At the end of the day, a lot of Minmatar ships do need a boost.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:29:00 - [88] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 15:09:22 Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 14:49:12 Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 14:48:32 Originally by: ebonyivory you do not fit points on carriers in a fleet battle u noob Your target warps out, 5 minutes without drones cause they follow. Originally by: ebonyivory shield tanks provide a buffer u tool Which buffer ? Honor buffer ? "Got an name starting by x" buffer ? When you are shooted at, you're attacked on your primary tank so you need fast reaction (in a fleet fight, fast like, say, 10 second module activation lag ?) to open capital shield reps. You've got those 10 seconds by armor tanking. Originally by: ebonyivory no buffer at end of warp??? wtf are you on about its the same thing with armour tanks (they require cap too) No, you got the useless shield to be destroyed. The time it's destroyed you can cap tank enough to go back to 90% cap and starting active tanking. In carebear land without lag, you start shield tanking at 75% capa end of warp / 80% shield. In the same world, you start armor tanking at 90% capa / 100% armor. You've got a lot of experience mr know-it-all-in-fleet-fight alpha-is-useless-in-fleet shield-tank-is-great-on-caps-in-fleets there-no-lag-in-fleet. You made me a troll now. Your useless nber tank can sustain 2 minutes without doing anything else than tank. 53s using rr. Work on this. And btw you have better result using pds on your silly fits. When it comes to triage, Chimera is a piece of **. When it comes to fleet fight, shield tanking, esp on caps, is a piece of **. -edit5- If you want a great fit for Chimera (that still cap shield tanks), start looking at this : Damage Control II 'Cartel' Power Diagnostic System I 'Cartel' Power Diagnostic System I 'Cartel' Power Diagnostic System I Capital Shield Booster I Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II 'Glycerine' Shield Boost Amplifier 'Glycerine' Shield Boost Amplifier Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I,Cap Booster 800 Cap Recharger II Triage Module I Capital Shield Transporter I 'Warhammer' Large EMP Smartbomb I 'Warhammer' Large EMP Smartbomb I 'Warhammer' Large EMP Smartbomb I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Semiconductor Memory Cell II Semiconductor Memory Cell II you have obv never been near a cap ship in your life 1)you rely on support to tackle stuff everyone will agree with me on this that actually knows anything about fleet fights 2)2 minutes of tank is quite useful in a fight as you can always get energy transfers from other ships 3)no one uses triage as it prevents rr which is the only thing stopping u from being alfad by dreads (that rly isnt too hard in cap fights) 4)using storyline mods=fail since they are hard to acquire
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:35:00 - [89] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn No, you got the useless shield to be destroyed. The time it's destroyed you can cap tank enough to go back to 90% cap and starting active tanking. Tell me where you see armor boost amplifiers as well as rigs to do the same or skills to significantly reduce armor rep cap use. Maybe you've seen passive armor reps somewhere around that the rest of us have missed all these years. Armor reps use a lot more cap than shield boosters and there's little that can be done to reduce it unlike shield boosting. Armor tankers don't have the luxury of fitting a passive mod to repair armor like the low AND mid slot fittings for shield regen that use NO CAP AT ALL. So just remember that the buffer armor tankers get is often only a brief reprieve. Just remember that most of us can fit a reasonable shield tanked ship with mods to use against the enemy and still keep it relatively cap stable with the right skills. An armor tanker has to have boosters or cap regens to make it cap stable even with the best skills using mids and lows that would be better used for something else. This is often the reason why an armor tanker is fitted for max gank to kill their opponent before they lose their cap. Rather than fit loads of cap regens and find themselves dealing so little damage that the enemy is passive tanking them. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:37:00 - [90] Originally by: Toshiro Khan However the majority are sub par and the weakest of their class. 25 categories in Eve excluding exhummers, cap carebear ships, misc and shuttles. I think our ships sucks very bad in less than 1/4 of these (esp all caps/supercaps). Some of our ships pwn in more than 7 categories (dictors, HID, tech I fregates, tech I cruisers, assault ships, destroyers, comandships, ceptors, hacs). So it's balanced to my point of vue. Having crap capitals but all other great ship doesn't mean our race is crap. Fetchez la vache !

Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:39:00 - [91] Originally by: ebonyivory you do not fit points on carriers in a fleet battle u noob Originally by: ebonyivory 1)you rely on support to tackle stuff everyone will agree with me on this that actually knows anything about fleet fights kthxbye Fetchez la vache !
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:44:00 - [92] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: ebonyivory you do not fit points on carriers in a fleet battle u noob Originally by: ebonyivory 1)you rely on support to tackle stuff everyone will agree with me on this that actually knows anything about fleet fights kthxbye Eh, well what would TCF know abut fleet fights, after all....
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:45:00 - [93] Originally by: Dantes Revenge Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn No, you got the useless shield to be destroyed. The time it's destroyed you can cap tank enough to go back to 90% cap and starting active tanking. Tell me where you see armor boost amplifiers as well as rigs to do the same or skills to significantly reduce armor rep cap use. Maybe you've seen passive armor reps somewhere around that the rest of us have missed all these years. Armor reps use a lot more cap than shield boosters and there's little that can be done to reduce it unlike shield boosting. Armor tankers don't have the luxury of fitting a passive mod to repair armor like the low AND mid slot fittings for shield regen that use NO CAP AT ALL. So just remember that the buffer armor tankers get is often only a brief reprieve. Just remember that most of us can fit a reasonable shield tanked ship with mods to use against the enemy and still keep it relatively cap stable with the right skills. An armor tanker has to have boosters or cap regens to make it cap stable even with the best skills using mids and lows that would be better used for something else. This is often the reason why an armor tanker is fitted for max gank to kill their opponent before they lose their cap. Rather than fit loads of cap regens and find themselves dealing so little damage that the enemy is passive tanking them. Agree in roaming gang. No in fleets. 10 second module activation lag is the same as "no lag" in fleets, you know that. And it's almost perfect conditions. Anyway, within 10 seconds you still start your modules at 80% shields. An armor tanking guy still starts their modules at 100% armor. Fetchez la vache !
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 15:47:00 - [94] Originally by: Malcanis Eh, well what would TCF know abut fleet fights, after all.... - I'm not TCF as a whole - I think TCF know fleet fight but maybe I'm wrong. I'm pretty much entered triage mode anyway. i think i should calm down a bit. Fetchez la vache !
Toshiro Khan Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:05:00 - [95] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn 25 categories in Eve excluding exhummers, cap carebear ships, misc and shuttles. I think our ships sucks very bad in less than 1/4 of these (esp all caps/supercaps). Some of our ships pwn in more than 7 categories (dictors, HID, tech I fregates, tech I cruisers, assault ships, destroyers, comandships, ceptors, hacs). So it's balanced to my point of vue. Having crap capitals but all other great ship doesn't mean our race is crap. Sorry, but your wrong. While you are entitled to your opinion, the views and opinions of others all agree that the majority of Minmatar ships are the worst of their classes. Off hand I honestly can't think of one Minmatar ship that is the best of its class. No tell a lie.. The Rifter is probably the best T1 frig of its class and the Rupture is the best T1 cruiser of its class. But that's not for definite. However, I'm slightly confused to why you are arguing against Minmatar ships getting a boost. If your that much of a die hard Matari pilot, i thought you would welcome a boost.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:09:00 - [96] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: Toshiro Khan However the majority are sub par and the weakest of their class. 25 categories in Eve excluding exhummers, cap carebear ships, misc and shuttles. I think our ships sucks very bad in less than 1/4 of these (esp all caps/supercaps). Some of our ships pwn in more than 7 categories (dictors, HID, tech I fregates, tech I cruisers, assault ships, destroyers, comandships, ceptors, hacs). So it's balanced to my point of vue. Having crap capitals but all other great ship doesn't mean our race is crap. crap hacs crap capitals crapish battleships artillery sucks split weapons suck theres a neverending list of thing that are bad with minmatar and it far outweighs the few good ships we have (and i mean top of the class not just inline with the others)
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:18:00 - [97] Originally by: ebonyivory crap hacs crap capitals crapish battleships artillery sucks split weapons suck Tell you what, I'll lobby with you to have all Minmatar artie and split weapon ships converted into fully fledged and wtfpwning missile ships?
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:20:00 - [98] Originally by: Pohbis Originally by: ebonyivory crap hacs crap capitals crapish battleships artillery sucks split weapons suck Tell you what, I'll lobby with you to have all Minmatar artie and split weapon ships converted into fully fledged and wtfpwning missile ships? meh would probably be an improvement. The thing with split weapons is not only do you get less dps from ship stats but you also suffer the worst of both worlds (crap artillery and large acs v torps requiring tps and cruise missiles being lollish)
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:38:00 - [99] ok having read half the post just 2 things 1 Triage sucks balls unless you have a POS you are desperate to save and are willing to throw away a few carriers. 2 Nid/Thanny tank equally as badly the nids bonus only works in its favour if every carrier in the gang is nidhoggurs so they all get the RR boost and help eachother more on top of that a chimera or archon still benifits more from their bonuses because their resistances have the same effect as having a repping bonus (from the perspective of being repped) but those resistance bonuses also add to the EHP and the personal tank of the carrier in question on top of that archon/chimera have the ability to fit more tanking mods than the other 2 carriers giving them even more of an advantage if you dont want a stable tank. 3. Someone mentioned the RR bonus makes the nid use more cap/s: WRONG then changed it so its a rep ammount bonus not the old rep time bonus which did used to make it eat more cap/s. 4. THE NAGLFAR it is broken pure and simple for a start because of its extra high slot it has one less utility slot (mids/lows) however this is silly the extra high slot gives it no benifits due to the split weapons system and low intial DPS of cit torps/capital projectiles and also as a consiquence of the split weapons the extreem difficulty to fit any damage mods effectively, mean that the moros or revelation can do double the DPS of the nag (and thats not just EFT theory thats from use ingame of all those ships) the phoenix amittedly suffers simmilarly low dps but can fit damage mods to compensate plus the second part is important. Due to the high CPU usage of the citadel torp launchers and having 2 launchers + two turrets really takes away alot of the CPU, however the moros, which yes uses hybrids which in turn are some what CPU intensive but in the end 3 of which equal the CPU of 2 launchers + 1 equivalent range gun, has 50 more CPU than the naglfar ok yes it has 1 more mid/low slot but that should take around 20-40 CPU fitting an equivalent set of guns on a nag uses 80 more CPU exactly for both sets so in reality the nag should have 40-60 MORE CPU than the moros. Iknow this is rambling but this leads me to my final point on this ship and the reason the phoenix in smaller groups (it probs needs a buff too tbh) is redeemed slightly: Capital shield tanks in siege, capital shield tanks are better than armor tanks for personal tanks be it sustanable or burst and in siege mode the diffrence is emphasised the phoenix can fit one, so can the moros, the naglfar cant (which considering minmatar capitals were intially meant to be able to field shield tanks is silly) even with CPU implants you can just about fit one if you spend 600mil on faction hardeners. So basically the nag does suck yes it looks nice and diffrent but it needs an extra mid slot and more CPU or to be switched to a pure projectile boat with 3 turret hard points and 4 total high slots. Also the TCF guy mentioned minmatar ships being best in 7 classes including destroyer, command ships and T1 frigs, T1 cruisers destroyers no one uses command ships well post nano nerf clamore is only slightly better than the EOS but much much worse than vulture/damnation. The sleipnir has never really matched up toe to toe abso/astarte or even the nighthawk (but thats a bit diffrent from them all) and post QR it loses its one advantage of speed frigates are debatable and not that regularly used tho rifter admittedly is pretty good the punisher is probably better with lasers or autocannons and you were talking the best not just good. cruisers again rupture is pretty good but thorax or vexor even is better stabber is fairly unique however other ships are just better and again post speed nerf its not astounding.
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:39:00 - [100] Originally by: Onewingedangel Pls, forums can be used for more than whining. First, vaga is still viable. It's just not broken anymore, so people are whining that it is no longer "killproof." Minmatar capitols do not suck, the Nid is the best support carrier in the game, and what are carriers there for? Support. The remote repping bonus is a huge advantage in combat and the subpar capitol tank doesn't mean ** if you aren't the primary. Secondly, a lack of a damage bonus is no real issue as many pilots assign fighters anyway, thus negating any damage bonus. The Naglfar is just plain cool. OMG a REV can out tank and out dps it, who cares. I'd take a Naglfar any day of the week over a rev in a small to moderate sized fleet engagement. They typhoon is awesome, 2 neut 2 nos 4 cruise + tackle/cap injector in mids + crazy armor tank in lows owns, with good skills you will be able to solo a Dominix, although it will be a close fight. Also, the typhoon is wonderfully versatile. Just because it can't go 10billion k/sec anymore doesn't mean it sucks. The tempest is flipping awesome. It's guns don't use cap, which means in a plated setup you have FIVE MID SLOTS to do whatever you want with. The tempest is a big hurricane. The maelstrom is awesome, and a big cyclone. Hell, the maelstrom I think is the worst minmatar ship there is, and I say that because it does not fly like a minmatar ship. It feels quite Amarr [slow as **] and it does nothing but tank and damage, like Amarr. Split weapons do not suck, hurricane for instance you can put a full rack of arties then 2 assault missile launchers+drones to handle tacklers. You can do the same on the tempest if you so desire. Split weapons offer versatility. Which is the advantage you have when flying minmatar. No other race matches minmatar versatility. That in itself is a great strength. The recons are not sub par, the Rapier with 1 web and a point fitted can fit a very hard shield tank. Or alternatively an armor tank is viable. Also, if you spent 200mil on a polyvaga and get popped by a drake it is the result of your poor piloting. Regardless of whether or not you actually kill the drake, it should not be able to kill you. You are faster, which means that if things start going south you can just leave. Which makes me think, that because you can't solo anything you want you resort to complaining. Please, actually fly these ships before complaining about them. So they don't crank out the highest dps and craziest tanks, fly Amarr if you want that. Every race has a different role. Indeed sir! As you so elegant points out, Minmatars has the top ships in every class. And people have the nerv to yell buff...eh? If their as good as you say, they really need a nerf...right?

Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:41:00 - [101] Originally by: Halock i think the problem with minmatar comes from them not having too great an eft showing, that being said, autocannon mechanics with falloff etc does suck. Problem is Minmatars show off better in EFT then in real game. Reason is you are suppose to fight in falloff. EFT shows numbers from optimal.
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:45:00 - [102] Originally by: Pohbis Originally by: ebonyivory crap hacs crap capitals crapish battleships artillery sucks split weapons suck Tell you what, I'll lobby with you to have all Minmatar artie and split weapon ships converted into fully fledged and wtfpwning missile ships? Actually at one stage i proposed a typhoon with 6-7 high slots and adding an extra mid slot for the lost high 5 missile launcher hard points no turret hardpoints keeping the current 5% ROF missile bonus but making it for torps only then making its second bonus a target painter bonus similar to vigil/bellicose and T2 variants making it an armor tanking drone/torp boat (not something eve actually has) due to the lack of a missile range bonus it would be forced to get in close and would making good use of the minmatar EW for once. Unfortunately my dream was never accepted.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:47:00 - [103] Originally by: Toshiro Khan Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn 25 categories in Eve excluding exhummers, cap carebear ships, misc and shuttles. I think our ships sucks very bad in less than 1/4 of these (esp all caps/supercaps). Some of our ships pwn in more than 7 categories (dictors, HID, tech I fregates, tech I cruisers, assault ships, destroyers, comandships, ceptors, hacs). So it's balanced to my point of vue. Having crap capitals but all other great ship doesn't mean our race is crap. Sorry, but your wrong. While you are entitled to your opinion, the views and opinions of others all agree that the majority of Minmatar ships are the worst of their classes. Off hand I honestly can't think of one Minmatar ship that is the best of its class. No tell a lie.. The Rifter is probably the best T1 frig of its class and the Rupture is the best T1 cruiser of its class. But that's not for definite. However, I'm slightly confused to why you are arguing against Minmatar ships getting a boost. If your that much of a die hard Matari pilot, i thought you would welcome a boost. Sabre is **tiest ? It's almost the only viable dictor ! To answer your question? I'd love minnie ship to have a boost, but it would be biaised by the fact I play Matar only ships. But I don't think it's required as much as the op whines for it. We have ugly ships but not the tiest. Amybe some tweaks could be uqsed, especially on dual weapon boats (Naglflar is hte ty dread, Typhoon/trashbin boat is hte ugliest ty boat in Eve imo, just because it's ty looking. i know some guys loves it. But it's fuggly. I don't want to be loled on the battlefield so I don't move in it. And I don't have the rquired 40m sp skill to make it viable anyway.) I tried Caldari ships. the raven or the rook. ECM, etc. These are good ships but these have no taste. No risk and no reward. It's like entering a ship, uber tank/uber ecm, been blown (anyway) and having no fun. Minnmatar ships are fun. So they aren't ** to my "some would tell lame" point of vue. We still have great and best boat. Guess what ? These are my favorite categories. I'm adapted to play the boat this race have. love them and I don't care bs or caps. If I'd wanted to play cap I would have played Amarr. Fetchez la vache !
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:49:00 - [104] Originally by: ebonyivory Originally by: Pohbis Originally by: ebonyivory crap hacs crap capitals crapish battleships artillery sucks split weapons suck Tell you what, I'll lobby with you to have all Minmatar artie and split weapon ships converted into fully fledged and wtfpwning missile ships? meh would probably be an improvement. The thing with split weapons is not only do you get less dps from ship stats but you also suffer the worst of both worlds (crap artillery and large acs v torps requiring tps and cruise missiles being lollish) Artillery is pure omgwtfbbq when you have all skill 5 in it like me. I see what is your problem now. Fetchez la vache !
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:50:00 - [105] Originally by: Onewingedangel Split weapons do not suck, hurricane for instance you can put a full rack of arties then 2 assault missile launchers+drones to handle tacklers. You can do the same on the tempest if you so desire. Split weapons offer versatility. Which is the advantage you have when flying minmatar. No other race matches minmatar versatility. That in itself is a great strength. Since you fly the ships supposedly it is intresting to note you fail to realise that split weapons systems is not really a reference to having a couple of launcher slots its a refrence to having 2 bonuses to diffrent forms of damage. while this is the case on most drone boats too they dont have to worry about having half their slots for one weapon and half for another as they can have normally 80% of their high slots fitted with bonused turrets if they so wish while still also getting the second damage bonus for the drones in their bays. That they choose to fit other things because bonused drones are effective enough is a diffrent matter.
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:51:00 - [106] Edited by: Pohbis on 26/12/2008 16:53:02 Originally by: Random Womble Actually at one stage i proposed a typhoon with 6-7 high slots and adding an extra mid slot for the lost high 5 missile launcher hard points no turret hardpoints keeping the current 5% ROF missile bonus but making it for torps only then making its second bonus a target painter bonus similar to vigil/bellicose and T2 variants making it an armor tanking drone/torp boat (not something eve actually has) due to the lack of a missile range bonus it would be forced to get in close and would making good use of the minmatar EW for once. Unfortunately my dream was never accepted. Maybe that's because of just replacing its weapon system with missiles only, you tried to piggyback as much as you could on top to make it nber, yes? An armor tanking torp spewer with RoF & TP bonus, mids free out the whazooo and good dronebay. Yes please, I think we'd all like that.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 16:58:00 - [107] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 17:03:11 Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 16:59:39 Originally by: ebonyivory Originally by: Pohbis Originally by: ebonyivory crap hacs crap capitals crapish battleships artillery sucks split weapons suck Tell you what, I'll lobby with you to have all Minmatar artie and split weapon ships converted into fully fledged and wtfpwning missile ships? meh would probably be an improvement. Go play caldari tbh, if you like so much other's ships. You're inadapted to play Matar. If one day I'd like to enter a dread what makes you think I'll train Matar. I love the design but it's crap so I move on to Phoenix. It won't be the first long training ship I would had anyway. BTW you're right the Nid tank is ****ty. Fetchez la vache !
arbiter reformed Minmatar Systematic Chaos.	Posted - 2008.12.26 17:05:00 - [108] ppl seem to forget quite how good the tempest is, good range(granted not as good as amarr) dual webs/space for eccm, great for solo with a nuet and sbomb, great for gangsd with 2 rr, they are mega killers basicly, amrr cant deal with blasterships like these ships can, they dictate range very effectivly which amarr cant. granted amarr have great battleships, they always have had, the last year at least has been dominated by amarr bs's. this doesnt mean they dont have there drawbacks too
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.12.26 17:08:00 - [109] Edited by: Happster on 26/12/2008 17:13:11 Originally by: Random Womble Originally by: Onewingedangel Split weapons do not suck, hurricane for instance you can put a full rack of arties then 2 assault missile launchers+drones to handle tacklers. You can do the same on the tempest if you so desire. Split weapons offer versatility. Which is the advantage you have when flying minmatar. No other race matches minmatar versatility. That in itself is a great strength. Since you fly the ships supposedly it is intresting to note you fail to realise that split weapons systems is not really a reference to having a couple of launcher slots its a refrence to having 2 bonuses to diffrent forms of damage. while this is the case on most drone boats too they dont have to worry about having half their slots for one weapon and half for another as they can have normally 80% of their high slots fitted with bonused turrets if they so wish while still also getting the second damage bonus for the drones in their bays. That they choose to fit other things because bonused drones are effective enough is a diffrent matter. I find best phoon is a phoon without any artillery nor AC's fitted. My phoon does about 850 dps, have about 200k ehp and 3xheavy neuts and 1xmedium neut fitted. A very good 1vs1 pvp ship. Atleast against ships that depends on cap Edit: As a general note about Minmatar ships. I find some BS usefull in some situation. But i have adapted and cross trained to other races. Usally i fly none minnie bs as they work better for the task ahead. But now and then i take out my phoon as its pretty good against cap using ships. Point is, you adapt or die with the race you fly. This isnt minnie spesific thing, but counts for all races.
Toshiro Khan Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.26 17:25:00 - [110] Edited by: Toshiro Khan on 26/12/2008 17:25:27 Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Sabre is **tiest ? It's almost the only viable dictor ! Please point to where in my post i mention the sabre or say it was the worst. Ahhhh i didn't... And I'm not sure what game your playing.. But All the dictors are quite capable of deploying bubbles.. Thus preforming their role quite equally, making them all quite viable. Being as a dictors life expectancy isn't very high regardless of how good its damage output is, the cheaper dictors make for a much better option. Plus again the speed re-balance hasn't help it or the others out much. So please, don't try pick up on things i never mentioned in the first place, as i have yet to call any of the Minmatar ships the tiest or **ty... I guess that you are slowly working on trying to troll me that you are no longer able to argue your point, due to the evidence and information given by others proving that you are wrong. Its all well and good you being Matari specced but, it shows that you don't have any clue of how the Minmatar ships sit in their class compared to others. You yourself said you had never flown a carrier, yet made arguments of how good the Nid was, even though others who have had experience in flying carriers pointed out how bad it was. And to throw in the Triage mod as part of your argument without understanding how it works, just destroyed any credit you had in that argument. As i said and have maintained the Minmatar do have some good ships, but the majority are the worst of their class.

ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 18:13:00 - [111] Originally by: Toshiro Khan As i said and have maintained the Minmatar do have some good ships, but the majority are the worst of their class. this pretty much
Argilac Blackthorne	Posted - 2008.12.26 18:29:00 - [112] I am glad to see that this thread is still going and has gotten a bit of attention. Minmatar are terrible compared to all other races right now and need to be reviewed. 90% of our ships are worse than comparable ships of the same class from the other races. Amarr & Gallente pwn right now. Caldari are pretty damn good. Minmatar suck ass.
Northern Fall Minmatar Guild Navy	Posted - 2008.12.26 19:52:00 - [113] Edited by: Northern Fall on 26/12/2008 19:53:09 Someone needs to tape the guns back together that were sawn in half in QR -On topic- If you've got the skills, Minmatar are awsome. downside is your gonna have to T2 fit every ship to get some use out of it. Bottom line is Minnie ships need to be more user friendly
Vall Kor Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.26 20:28:00 - [114] I'm still young in my EVE career. But I'm having a blast with my minnie pilot. Plus, if the ships really are that broken as some of you claim, just cross train That's one of the best things about EVE, there really isn't a best race, unless I'm missing something... And why can't you fly what you enjoy?
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 20:35:00 - [115] Originally by: Vall Kor I'm still young in my EVE career. But I'm having a blast with my minnie pilot. Plus, if the ships really are that broken as some of you claim, just cross train That's one of the best things about EVE, there really isn't a best race, unless I'm missing something... And why can't you fly what you enjoy? so what your telling me is that minnie ships are so bad that cross-training is required nothing wrong there >.> if youd bothered to read youd realise that because your still young in your eve carrier you havent come accross most of the problems facing minnie pilots (cap ships/large acs/artillery/sucky hacs)
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 21:00:00 - [116] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 21:01:16 Originally by: Toshiro Khan (...) the views and opinions of others all agree that the majority of Minmatar ships are the worst of their classes. Off hand I honestly can't think of one Minmatar ship that is the best of its class. The Sabre is. It's the only dictor capable of escaping its own buble in time. Fetchez la vache !
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 21:19:00 - [117] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 21:23:17 Originally by: Toshiro Khan You yourself said you had never flown a carrier, yet made arguments of how good the Nid was, even though others who have had experience in flying carriers pointed out how bad it was. And to throw in the Triage mod as part of your argument without understanding how it works, just destroyed any credit you had in that argument. Triage is usefull in my book "just in case of" and DCU aren't. Shield tanking cap suck very bad in my book. Now go figure how old is our fleet and carrier expert ebonyivory : 14 monthes old, more or less 20m sp. How can you he say Minnie ship and artillery sucks, with so low sp, being allready a carrier pilot. Anyway I admited to be false on the Nid, that is not the point. Op took exemple of suckiest ships in Matari's boat and generalized how sucky were matari ships. If he have trouble using artillery, being a carrier guy with so low sp that is perfectly normal !! I've got 9m sp in gunnery, or half of what he's suposed to have, my 'pest doesn't suck as much as the op implies. It's not sub par. Pvp wise, it's on par megathrons, way better than ravens and on par apocs. Fetchez la vache !
Ralarina Caldari Vivicide	Posted - 2008.12.26 21:44:00 - [118] Originally by: ebonyivory Originally by: Kurt Ambrose Edited by: Kurt Ambrose on 25/12/2008 20:21:54 Originally by: ebonyivory 2)Hacs are crap 5)Recons are sub-par 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless (why spend 200mil on a polyvaga when youl get popped by a drake 0_o) 1) Vagabond is awesome 2) Rapier and Huginn are still nice 3) You dont need speed rigs to get a decent speed out of the vaga 1)paper tank 2)paper tank 3)paper tank ccp effectively nerfed their only realistic form of tanking (you cant armour tank a vaga or shield tank for that matter) sure they can zoom around at lululudicrous speeds but theyl get instapopped by just about anything Deimos has a paper tank as does the cerberus Arazu has like.. no tank (and doesn't have speed going for it either) and the rapier has (debatably) a better EW bonus. ... Every race CANNOT be the best at EVERYTHING. -- Ralara's Alt (due to Forum ban)
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.26 21:47:00 - [119] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 26/12/2008 21:23:17 Originally by: Toshiro Khan You yourself said you had never flown a carrier, yet made arguments of how good the Nid was, even though others who have had experience in flying carriers pointed out how bad it was. And to throw in the Triage mod as part of your argument without understanding how it works, just destroyed any credit you had in that argument. Triage is usefull in my book "just in case of" and DCU aren't. Shield tanking cap suck very bad in my book. Now go figure how old is our fleet and carrier expert ebonyivory : 14 monthes old, more or less 20m sp. How can you he say Minnie ship and artillery sucks, with so low sp, being allready a carrier pilot. Anyway I admited to be false on the Nid, that is not the point. Op took exemple of suckiest ships in Matari's boat and generalized how sucky were matari ships. If he have trouble using artillery, being a carrier guy with so low sp that is perfectly normal !! I've got 9m sp in gunnery, or half of what he's suposed to have, my 'pest doesn't suck as much as the op implies. It's not sub par. Pvp wise, it's on par megathrons, way better than ravens and on par apocs. stop saying triage is useful...its not i dont quite get what you said for the rest of this but im guna try to decipher i took examples of suckiest matari ships because there are so many of them (more than the good ships i presume the whole 14 months is reffering to me...well this isnt my main (main got forum banned for some ....well lets just call them lolposts ok?) ok lets look at your artillery mael v abbadon 5 damage mods in lows full rack of guns each with t2 long range ammo abbadon- 544 dps at 144km 3.5k alfa mael- 412 at 152km 3.8k alfa so the mael is outdamaged pest- 388 at 152km 3.6k alfa apoc- 435 at 188km 2.8k alfa so alls you have to show for your tempest is the slightly higher alfa and decreased range and dps. So now tell me thats not sub-par?
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2008.12.26 21:51:00 - [120] Originally by: Pohbis Edited by: Pohbis on 26/12/2008 16:53:02 Originally by: Random Womble Actually at one stage i proposed a typhoon with 6-7 high slots and adding an extra mid slot for the lost high 5 missile launcher hard points no turret hardpoints keeping the current 5% ROF missile bonus but making it for torps only then making its second bonus a target painter bonus similar to vigil/bellicose and T2 variants making it an armor tanking drone/torp boat (not something eve actually has) due to the lack of a missile range bonus it would be forced to get in close and would making good use of the minmatar EW for once. Unfortunately my dream was never accepted. Maybe that's because of just replacing its weapon system with missiles only, you tried to piggyback as much as you could on top to make it nber, yes? An armor tanking torp spewer with RoF & TP bonus, mids free out the whazooo and good dronebay. Yes please, I think we'd all like that. actually you would only gain 25% DPS over fitting 4 torp launchers and heavy heavy drones now with a typhoon while having a lesser ability to fit nuets the DPS would be less than is possible to achieve now and the range would be 20kms maximum with T1/faction/Rage torps or 30kms maximum with long range torps (which deal considerably less DPS) thats with missile projection and missile bombardment at 5 which is quite skill intensive. A megathron with T2 neutrons and antimatter will get a 9km optimal and 12.5km falloff with sharpshooter 5 and trajectory analysis 5 which are the gunnery skills that equate to missile bombardment/projection. The typhoon would do less DPS and have a similar tank and around same range (mega can shoot further but has the downside that it loses DPS as distance grows and yes i know gallente fight in opt not faloff) the missile range also assumes it exits the ship in the right direction at maximum speed with the opposing ship not moving so real range will be 1km or so less which forces the typhoon to engage at close range. As for free midslots well by adding one midslot the typhoon would have 5 since you get a target painting bonus and a target painter would be needed to get max damage on even a BS that straight away takes atleast one then since its a close range fit and must get in close you are going to be looking a definitely having an MWD so thats 2 slots gone. Next slot goes to the cap injector you will need it which leaves 2 slots left well first would have to be a disruptor/scram and then second you could have a web or ECCM. Bear in mind torps suck against smaller ships especially now the typhoons drone bay is not huge you would probably have 5 heavys yes but you also would need 5 lights for smaller ships question is that last 25m3 you go with a spare heavy or a second set of lights... If you still think it would be overpowered then tell me why most minmatar people actually dislike the idea because they think it would be weaker as the guy said i just think currently its borked yes i have a character that can fly one and i can fit T2 drones (5mil sp) guns(9mil sp minmatar only) or missiles (7mil sp) on it but my opinion still is it need change.

Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.26 23:53:00 - [121] Originally by: ebonyivory so alls you have to show for your tempest is the slightly higher alfa and decreased range and dps. So now tell me thats not sub-par? Alpha make everything in fleet fights. Nobody gets a second shot. Fetchez la vache !
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.26 23:59:00 - [122] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: ebonyivory so alls you have to show for your tempest is the slightly higher alfa and decreased range and dps. So now tell me thats not sub-par? Alpha make everything in fleet fights. Nobody gets a second shot. watch the alliance tournaments, Even in small gang warfare alpha damage is how you get past stronger rep tanks with small amounts of buffer. Lets say the target is tanking armor, you take out the shield and start to work at the armor. Everyone in your fleet hits the target for 800 dps, however the ship with logistics support can tank this 800 dps. HOwever the buffer is only 4000 hp. So instead you take out a fleet that deals only 500dps, but can deal over 5000 damage in aplha. Thus each hit, even though they can tank back to full armor, they take 1000 structure damage each volley.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.27 00:11:00 - [123] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: ebonyivory so alls you have to show for your tempest is the slightly higher alfa and decreased range and dps. So now tell me thats not sub-par? Alpha make everything in fleet fights. Nobody gets a second shot. watch the alliance tournaments, Even in small gang warfare alpha damage is how you get past stronger rep tanks with small amounts of buffer. Lets say the target is tanking armor, you take out the shield and start to work at the armor. Everyone in your fleet hits the target for 800 dps, however the ship with logistics support can tank this 800 dps. HOwever the buffer is only 4000 hp. So instead you take out a fleet that deals only 500dps, but can deal over 5000 damage in aplha. Thus each hit, even though they can tank back to full armor, they take 1000 structure damage each volley. aaand how many small gangs do you see these days >.>
masternerdguy Gallente Gate Control Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.27 00:13:00 - [124] why did you choose to be minmattar?
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.27 00:31:00 - [125] Edited by: ebonyivory on 27/12/2008 00:31:47 Originally by: masternerdguy why did you choose to be minmattar? i didnt i was cladari originally and then i specced minmatar because i liked the idea of speed tanking and the hurricane is a good ship edit: and now im stuck with the hurricane as speed tanking no longer works
masternerdguy Gallente Gate Control Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.27 00:47:00 - [126] Originally by: ebonyivory Edited by: ebonyivory on 27/12/2008 00:31:47 Originally by: masternerdguy why did you choose to be minmattar? i didnt i was cladari originally and then i specced minmatar because i liked the idea of speed tanking and the hurricane is a good ship edit: and now im stuck with the hurricane as speed tanking no longer works you can speed tank still, i do it. Use an AB and orbit your target inside optimal range. Then use defenders to defeat missiles.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.27 01:28:00 - [127] Originally by: masternerdguy Originally by: ebonyivory Edited by: ebonyivory on 27/12/2008 00:31:47 Originally by: masternerdguy why did you choose to be minmattar? i didnt i was cladari originally and then i specced minmatar because i liked the idea of speed tanking and the hurricane is a good ship edit: and now im stuck with the hurricane as speed tanking no longer works you can speed tank still, i do it. Use an AB and orbit your target inside optimal range. Then use defenders to defeat missiles. unsuccesful troll is unsuccesful
Viqer Fell Minmatar When Hippo Attacks Go Wrong	Posted - 2008.12.27 03:28:00 - [128] Edited by: Viqer Fell on 27/12/2008 03:28:44 Where to start I wonder? Ok bit of background I guess, flesh out my credentials before I get told to scuttle back under the bridge. Started playing after release as, well as me tbh. Viqer is my first character and I have played him constantly for well 5 years or so now pretty much constantly. Never wasted time training alts on this account. I started as a hardcore minmatar terrorist blowing up amarrians and never looked back. Spent the last 3 years running a merc corp. I have almost 80m SP and am just shy of 300 skills trained and just shy of 100 level v's so I do feel somewhat qualified to frame a reply to your "Boost Minmatar Stuff, It sucksÖ" thread. Back in 2003 at release the game went like this: Caldari : Beginner mode Gallente : Easy mode Amarr : Hard Minmatar : Eve is all about change and evolution but some things are immutable and the above would appear to be one of those things. Whilst there are flavours of the month, favoured play styles, individual ships and ship classes that come to the fore and then sink back into obscurity the general rule of thumb is that the further down the list you go the more SP you needed to invest to be effective. Please note the generalisation here before you rush back with a ill thought correction. Minmatar don't suck but I'll give you this. They got shafted royally when it came to their racial advantage. A lot is made of their natural speed advantage and versatility but tbh a 20m/s speed advantage over the other races BS for example and for versatility read split weapon systems and some ships needing armour tank and some needing shield tank, well all I can say is gee thanks for not very much. 1)Capitals are by far the worst I'll put as much effort into my reply as you did in constructing your argument. No they aren't. They may not be the best out there but they are certainly not as massively disadvantaged as you suggest. 2)Hacs are crap The muninn was always the Ginger haired basard of the the HAC family but again this comes down to how much effort you want to put into flying it. Multiple years worth of skills is probably beyond most people's attention span these days. As for the Vagabond well it was always a tad overpowered and maybe there is justification for a very mild boost to its base speed. It's still a good ship just it can't solo wtfpwn eveything whilst zooming about at 15km/sec and needs to be used like many other ships do, in conjunction with other ships. 3)2 of the bses are crap/subpar Shame you fail to mention which 2 you think these are. Typhoon : I'll happily take on any other Tier 1 BS in a typhoon so struggling to see your point here Tempest : Artillery is the issue here not the ship, which I assume is your gripe with the pest. An A/C pest still can be a vary nasty beast. Maelstrom : must confess not flown one in a while but very easy to fit with whatever you want, can fit a very nice shield tank and again my only issue is more with artillery as a weapon rather than against the ship class. 4)split weapons suck Only if you don't have 80m Sp I guess but seriously they don't suck, they're just not as great as CCP like to think they are in terms of versatility. 5)Recons are sub-par Yeah cause Rapiers and Huginns just really suck. I guess what you're really *****ing at here is that they're not solo killing machines. Well sorry but that's not really an argument for a boost. They perform very very useful roles in many people's mind. 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless. I don't think it is but I do think that on its own it's bloody harder. I see a lot more speed ships adding a minor tank in the form of an active repper or booster as speed alone won't avoid the dmg now usually. If you think CCP will listen now after 5 years of Bosst Minmatar threads have gone silently by just because you have presented some half assed idea then you are a fool sir.
Argilac Blackthorne	Posted - 2008.12.27 04:51:00 - [129] CCP, please say you will look into balancing Minmatar ships.
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.12.27 06:02:00 - [130] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: ebonyivory so alls you have to show for your tempest is the slightly higher alfa and decreased range and dps. So now tell me thats not sub-par? Alpha make everything in fleet fights. Nobody gets a second shot. this made my day Originally by: masternerdguy Use an AB and orbit your target inside optimal range. Then use defenders to defeat missiles. hahaha, defenders even if working wouldn't work at ac optimal. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls

Evan Batarr	Posted - 2008.12.27 13:06:00 - [131] Edited by: Evan Batarr on 27/12/2008 13:10:52 @ Kweel - stop posting, you noob. Really. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. You already had to admit you were totally wrong on minnie cap tanks and you should eat the rest of your words, too. 'Triage' in fleet fights - LOL. I don't agree with the OP that Minmatar sucks completely but there are a lot of issues with our race that need to be adressed. Most issues have been already posted in this thread - one main thing is missing. Minmatar has NO fleet BS. Everybody with a bit of experience in today's fleet fights knows that range & DD tank & DPS (alpha is pretty unimportant as the primary is dead anyway if hit by 100 ships) make a useful Fleet BS. While all races have a BS being able to lock & shoot at ranges over 200 km (Apoc, Rokh, Mega) and still fit a DD tank and do some serious dmg you won't be able to do so with any of the three Minmatar BS. You can get a Mael to shoot over 200 km but you'd be in 2 x Falloff already meaning you do even more LOL-DPS. The speed-nerf didn't hit Minmatar as bad as I feared but it's STILL a huge nerf to nearly all the Minmatar ships. The main problem with Minmatar is not that our ships suck so hard (well, some do, like e.g. the capitals) but that nearly all our ships are sub-par compared to the other races counterparts while being more skill intensive at the same time. We only have two ships that (with a bit of good-will) are the best in their class - the Rifter and the Broadsword. If you have a big wallet you can maybe add the Sabre but as it got nerfed really hard (TWO speed nerfs) and dictors are throwaway ships I prefer the much cheaper counterparts. That's all! And if I think about the training time to effectively fit&fly minmatar ships that's pretty poor! We have some ships that can compare (e.g. Stabber Fleet, Sleipnir, Rupture, Jaguar, Hurricane) but in most cases those ships only make it to a split second place. Still pretty poor. I fly Amarr & Minmatar (everything up to BS size - excl. Marauders & Black-Ops - with T2 Lasers/Projectiles fitted) and ATM there's pretty much no class I'd prefer Minmatar (except maybe Bomber, AssFrig & HIC - all classes I seldomly fly). The important classes like BS, Recon, HAC, CS I take the Amarr Ships. Minmatar ships are described to be versatile - unfortunately in EVE it's not an advantage, it's a disadvantage. You need to skill everything and still suck. And the often used argument that projectile weapons can switch damage types means in fact nothing in times of omni-tanks. You either use Rep. Fleet EMP or Long Range T2-Ammo (on very few occasions maybe Rep. Fleet Phased Plasma). And having ships with strange slot layouts doesn't mean you can fit an armor or shield tank - in the end you just suck compared to ships that have been designed for one type of tank (disregarding you only have to train for one type of tank). Same for split weapon systems - as long as these ships don't get a dmg bonus for ALL weapons and still a second bonus they will stay sub par. It's the same as if a Megathron had one dmg bonus for Rails and one for Blasters and nothing else. Only Minmatar ships (Typh, Nagl) have to deal with crap like that - not even mentioning you have to max out two different weapon systems before even thinking of flying such a ship. And you STILL would do LOL-dmg compared to other Tier 1-BS. tl;dr Minmatar needs a Fleet BS (give us a ship with bonus on optimal) and some ships need a serious overhaul. Projectile Weapons need to be looked after as well - adding a falloff mod (like Tracking Enh. just with falloff instead of optimal) would be a start.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.27 14:44:00 - [132] To viqer wow for someone with 80mil sp you are a bit of an idiot. First off with 80mil sp im pretty sure any ship would be good...however not everyone has 80mil sp. 1)the minnie capitals ARE the worst i defy you to find a worse dread than the nagl and a worse cap than the nid. Not only that but the nagl is REALLY bad (see more damage fitting lazors) 2)The munnin sucks everyone agreees on this. A 10km/s vagabond cost billions of isk to fit and could be killed by any bs pilot with a neut so really the arguement against it is abit stupid. I mean carebears spend billions of isk on ratting ships and they dont even get exposed to danger.... 3)the typhoon is a good bs. Yes the pest is crap because artillery sucks....so perhaps fixing that would be a nice idea as sniper fleets are reasonably common these days? Same thing with mael ofc. 4)Split weapons SUCK you get less dps and its harder to fit damage mods for both weapon types. 5)Maybe in peoples minds....since you need 2 webs which hurts your tank nowadays they are basically used as expensive stealth bombers for popping inties before gettin instapopped by the first mega dps sniper apoc. 6)The speed nerf killed the vagabond....you cant fit an armour tank and a shield tank is a pita (if not impossible to fit)in ccps time honoured tradition of overnerfing things they have basically killed one of the few ships that made minmatar really good.
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2008.12.27 14:47:00 - [133] Edited by: Random Womble on 27/12/2008 14:48:54 Edited by: Random Womble on 27/12/2008 14:48:16 One last note on split weapons the nightmare (and other sansha ships) got changed because it had split weapons and they sucked so CCP revamped it gave it a maruader like bonus and made it unique vs paladin by giving it a shield tank rather than old armor one now nightmare gets classed as an awesome ship. Point is CCP admitted with it that split weapons and split damage bonuses fail yet a while later they still introduced the fleet scythe which again had split weapons is it just me or does that seem a bit illogical. CCP are not really sure what they want to do with minmatar. And no im not saying make the same changes the nightmare ect had im just saying some changes need to be made.
Evan Batarr	Posted - 2008.12.27 15:07:00 - [134] Originally by: ebonyivory 2)The munnin sucks everyone agreees on this. Nope, I don't. If you use it as a Sniper it doesn't suck at all. Unfortunately the Eagle is so much better as sniper and the zealot is as good as a Muninn if not better. Good example for what I wrote in my earlier post. Minmatar ships don't suck mostly BUT!!!! they don't shine either.
NightmareX D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.27 15:39:00 - [135] Edited by: NightmareX on 27/12/2008 15:40:52 ebony, are you **ing **ed or what?. First you call us for idiot because we say Minmatar is good. And then you say the Tempest is crap only because the Artilleries is not so good. Uhm, i would say that the Artilleries are the crap here then, not the Tempest. But for me the Artilleries are good. But with my experience and 3+ years of using the Tempest i will say that your words about Minmatar is a **ing joke and troll. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
darkmancer	Posted - 2008.12.27 15:56:00 - [136] I'm caldari specced and i can't use t2 projectiles but i find myself using minmater ships as often as not. Frankly ccp buff them all you want, they don't need it but they're fantastic fun to use. --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.27 16:00:00 - [137] Originally by: Evan Batarr Edited by: Evan Batarr on 27/12/2008 13:10:52 @ Kweel - stop posting, you noob. (...) Minmatar has NO fleet BS. Let's troll ? No, you made it by yourself. Fetchez la vache !
Evan Batarr	Posted - 2008.12.27 16:04:00 - [138] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: Evan Batarr Edited by: Evan Batarr on 27/12/2008 13:10:52 @ Kweel - stop posting, you noob. (...) Minmatar has NO fleet BS. Let's troll ? No, you made it by yourself. This just supports what I wrote. You have NO IDEA of fleet warfare (or anything else).
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.27 16:11:00 - [139] Originally by: Evan Batarr Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: Evan Batarr Edited by: Evan Batarr on 27/12/2008 13:10:52 @ Kweel - stop posting, you noob. (...) Minmatar has NO fleet BS. Let's troll ? No, you made it by yourself. This just supports what I wrote. You have NO IDEA of fleet warfare (or anything else). Yes, i'm a bot in fact. I write random things. Tempest are still primaried in fleets don't you wonder ? Fetchez la vache !
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.27 17:02:00 - [140] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 27/12/2008 15:56:49 ebony, are you **ing **ed or what?. First you call us for idiot because we say Minmatar is good. And then you say the Tempest is crap only because the Artilleries is not so good. Uhm, i would say that the Artilleries are the crap here then, not the Tempest. But for me the Artilleries are good. But with my experience and 3+ years of using the Tempest, Vagabond, Hurricane, Jaguar and Rifter+++ i will say that your words about Minmatar is a **ing joke and troll. minmatar suck because they use artillery....thats not too hard to understand is it if they didnt use artillery (for example used lazors with correct ship bonuses then they wouldnt suck) but as it is they use artillery so they suck hurricane/jag are fine vagabond is easily beaten by any other hac dps/tank wise artillery tempest sucks simple as really

Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2008.12.27 17:09:00 - [141] i like some of my minnie ships.... that said, they all could do with even less signature - even the scimitar. the slot layout only "allows" shield extenders; shield booster on cap charges and MWD...? not with minnie pg and/or overall cap stats. even the mael and pest (have to) utilize them against the ragnarok. sure, shield extenders could work differently, but smaller signatures across the board might take some stress off capitals aswell. i'm thinking ~25% below amarr. yes, that much. well and then there's arties...... i dont mind the lower EFT damage, it is (mostly) expl after all - if i had the "certainty" of optimal range, or the amarr-like low slots to use gyros and enhancers. i understand increasing optimal range is not an option in order to keep the flavours. but could we settle on (way) more tracking? or we'll have to nerf the obvious for everyone else: tracking enhancers. and fitting arties is just evil. i prefer 5x1400mm tempests with an extra gyro instead of a reactor control II, which doesnt even deliver the extra gun on its own. no matter how you spin it, that'll never compete with 7 rails or (downsized) beams. in short: - smaller signatures - arties need more tracking and/or less fitting req's - tracking enhancers need revision oh and get rid of the vaga speed bonus already. it ruins the fun for all other minnie ships whenever it comes to speed discussions/balances/nerfs. i can barely follow QRs logic with the mass~ and agility changes. - putting the gist back into logistics
Evan Batarr	Posted - 2008.12.27 17:09:00 - [142] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Yes, i'm a bot in fact. I write random things. Tempest are still primaried in fleets don't you wonder ? Everybody can see that - no need to point it out Well, not in the fleets I'm flying in. They mostly can't even lock/shoot at the range we warp in. I don't bother with ships that can't touch me. But come on - show me a Tempest fitting that is DD proof (1 x LV V DD - no matter the type), can lock & shoot over 200 km and does still a bit of dmg.
Jared D'Uroth	Posted - 2008.12.27 17:20:00 - [143] Originally by: ebonyivory 1)Capitals are by far the worst √ - FREAKING VERTICAL is not a reason to fly a dread ;) 2)MUNNINS are crap √ - (Vaga is fine) 3)2 of the bses are crap/subpar X - Which ones are you referring to? All of them seem on-par and inline with others 4)split weapons suck √ - Very true. It is **** to have to train two weapons systems and two tanks in order to fly the ships effectivley. 5)Recons are sub-par √ - Would like to see some boost there, yes. 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless (why spend 200mil on a polyvaga when youl get popped by a drake 0_o) X - Speed tanking is fine and on-par. You forgot the Marauder.
Nikita Alterana Gallente The Antikythera Mechanism	Posted - 2008.12.27 17:59:00 - [144] posting in support of the minmatar boost. I'm a crosstraining Amarr/Minmatar pilot and I have found that minmatar are pretty much the worse ship in every case. Pre QR they at least had speed but now with that gone they have nothing. Their recons are superfluous for the most part but I feel as people get more used to the speed changes and start using painters to combat the fast ships they'll get a boost in useage, but for now, there is no reason to use them. Vaga is bad right now, there is nothing that can be said to defend it, its bad. The Munin, if simply T2 fit, can be matched by a Hurricane (the Hurricane being the only minmatar ship I like to fly) The phoon is skill intensive to the point of ridiculousness, and once you get there, a geddon will still curb stomp you. The Pest, I actually like, and serves well in RR gangs, but with arties it basically flops. The Minmatar guns are imbalanced badly, which is part of the problem I suppose. The Mael, I honestly haven't flown one recently but I have a feeling that a battle of it vs a pulse abaddon would end very badly from it. I have no problem with the longer skilltraining times, but make it have a point, if they take longer to get into, are harder to fly, and require more money to fit then they should be marginally BETTER then their counterparts, not simply on par or worse. case and point, it takes way longer to get into the freaking vertical nag then to get into the rev, and at the end of the day you get a tiny dps increase with only the shortrange weapons (one that the Moros can easily beat) and a worse tank then any of the other dreads. The Nid takes the same amount of time to get into as other carriers but you end up with less armor, less shields, and a crappy bonus. cut it up and argue it however you want, the minmatar ARE imbalanced, I see no reason why it should automatically take 2x the skillpoints to simply be on par with other races. __________________________________________________ I was Amarr before they were the FOTM and I'll be Amarr after it! I'm also training Minmatar Capitals! And I eat Lions!
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.27 18:00:00 - [145] Originally by: Evan Batarr But come on - show me a Tempest fitting that is DD proof (1 x LV V DD - no matter the type), can lock & shoot over 200 km and does still a bit of dmg. With rigs, that's easy. What I got there is 289dps @ 144+44, Alpha 3287, sensor @ 249, 89k ehp, 3x trimarks Or without rigs I got 200dps @ 144+44, Alpha 2749, sensor @ 249, 88k ehp. Fetchez la vache !
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.27 18:41:00 - [146] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: Evan Batarr But come on - show me a Tempest fitting that is DD proof (1 x LV V DD - no matter the type), can lock & shoot over 200 km and does still a bit of dmg. With rigs, that's easy. What I got there is 289dps @ 144+44, Alpha 3287, sensor @ 249, 89k ehp, 3x trimarks Or without rigs I got 200dps @ 144+44, Alpha 2749, sensor @ 249, 88k ehp. thats great.....now if only every other race couldnt do that and more dps at the same time :(
Orakkus Minmatar m3 Corp BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.12.27 19:18:00 - [147] Originally by: ebonyivory Reasons minmatar suck 1)Capitals are by far the worst 2)Hacs are crap 3)2 of the bses are crap/subpar 4)split weapons suck 5)Recons are sub-par 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless (why spend 200mil on a polyvaga when youl get popped by a drake 0_o) 1. Can't really answer this as well as I liked to, but the Naglfar is the only Dread that can viable both as an armor or a shield tank. But it will be a few months before I can do my own reviews on this. Nidhoggur I have no idea on. 2. Vagabond isn't crap, wasn't before and it isn't now. Can be viable both as a well tanked/heavy hitter, or (and I really MEAN the "or") a heavy tackler. Muninn.. man I SO want to love that ship.. but it just can't compete as well as the other long-range HAC snipers (and no, I don't wanna hear about how great the Muninn is with ACs.. it isn't.. plain and simple, and believe me.. I've tried). 3. Na, all three battleships are good, its just that 2 are unjustly skill intensive. Personally, I'm a huge fan of the Tempest, but it requires alot of SP and skills to fly it effectively.. though QR has definately given the Tempest a nice boost. 4. Amen. So do split defenses, another Minmatar "feature". 5. Eh, I think I need to spend more time messing with this now that Sig radius has become more of an issue. Still, I'm not a big fan of ships whose only viable purpose is to take out ships smaller than itself. 6. Speed tanking was never supposed to be a "primary" form of tanking. The Active shield tank was supposed to be the Minmatar way of tanking. Speed was just supposed to be a nice bonus along with smaller sig radius to even things out. Most people don't fit Minmatar ships that way and/or try to shoehorn them into roles they were never meant to compete in. I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.27 19:24:00 - [148] Originally by: ebonyivory Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: Evan Batarr But come on - show me a Tempest fitting that is DD proof (1 x LV V DD - no matter the type), can lock & shoot over 200 km and does still a bit of dmg. With rigs, that's easy. What I got there is 289dps @ 144+44, Alpha 3287, sensor @ 249, 89k ehp, 3x trimarks Or without rigs I got 200dps @ 144+44, Alpha 2749, sensor @ 249, 88k ehp. thats great.....now if only every other race couldnt do that and more dps at the same time :( With tiers 2 or 1, Caldari. Fetchez la vache !
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.27 19:26:00 - [149] Originally by: Orakkus Originally by: ebonyivory Reasons minmatar suck 1)Capitals are by far the worst 2)Hacs are crap 3)2 of the bses are crap/subpar 4)split weapons suck 5)Recons are sub-par 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless (why spend 200mil on a polyvaga when youl get popped by a drake 0_o) 1. Can't really answer this as well as I liked to, but the Naglfar is the only Dread that can viable both as an armor or a shield tank. But it will be a few months before I can do my own reviews on this. Nidhoggur I have no idea on. 2. Vagabond isn't crap, wasn't before and it isn't now. Can be viable both as a well tanked/heavy hitter, or (and I really MEAN the "or") a heavy tackler. Muninn.. man I SO want to love that ship.. but it just can't compete as well as the other long-range HAC snipers (and no, I don't wanna hear about how great the Muninn is with ACs.. it isn't.. plain and simple, and believe me.. I've tried). 3. Na, all three battleships are good, its just that 2 are unjustly skill intensive. Personally, I'm a huge fan of the Tempest, but it requires alot of SP and skills to fly it effectively.. though QR has definately given the Tempest a nice boost. 4. Amen. So do split defenses, another Minmatar "feature". 5. Eh, I think I need to spend more time messing with this now that Sig radius has become more of an issue. Still, I'm not a big fan of ships whose only viable purpose is to take out ships smaller than itself. 6. Speed tanking was never supposed to be a "primary" form of tanking. The Active shield tank was supposed to be the Minmatar way of tanking. Speed was just supposed to be a nice bonus along with smaller sig radius to even things out. Most people don't fit Minmatar ships that way and/or try to shoehorn them into roles they were never meant to compete in. 1)the nagl does 75% less damage than a rev and can do mroe dmg with unbonused lasers than arties.....the dual tanking thing makes its tank harder to fit well. 2)the only way to effectively tank a vaga is with speed....you CANT armour tank a vaga and you can barely shield tank it....so any other hac will rip it apart. Plus heavy tacklers are pretty crap when they have no tank to speak of. 3)ill have to go over this repeatedly wont i? what part of artillery is crap are you not quite getting? the impossibly small ammo cap? the fighting in falloff? the measily dps compared to lasers? So thats basically 50% of all the fits you can do for minmatar bses in the broadest terms (sniper or close range) 6)since minmatar rely on speed as an advantage it was the primary form of tanking for lots of their ships....in its nerfed state is doesnt really cut it against other tanks as the speed tanking ships find it hard to fit anything midly bufferish
Orakkus Minmatar m3 Corp BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.12.27 19:53:00 - [150] Originally by: ebonyivory 1)the nagl does 75% less damage than a rev and can do mroe dmg with unbonused lasers than arties.....the dual tanking thing makes its tank harder to fit well. 2)the only way to effectively tank a vaga is with speed....you CANT armour tank a vaga and you can barely shield tank it....so any other hac will rip it apart. Plus heavy tacklers are pretty crap when they have no tank to speak of. 3)ill have to go over this repeatedly wont i? what part of artillery is crap are you not quite getting? the impossibly small ammo cap? the fighting in falloff? the measily dps compared to lasers? So thats basically 50% of all the fits you can do for minmatar bses in the broadest terms (sniper or close range) 6)since minmatar rely on speed as an advantage it was the primary form of tanking for lots of their ships....in its nerfed state is doesnt really cut it against other tanks as the speed tanking ships find it hard to fit anything midly bufferish 1. As I mentioned, I still need to do some direct testing on this personally, but my initial thought process on the Naglfar is that if you need to do heavy damage, you shield tank it, and drop alot of Gyros in the lows. If you need a heavy tank on the other hand, you do sacrifice considerable DPS to achieve it, though it is possible to give it a 1.2mil EHP tank on the Naglfar. It just sucks that you have to chose one or the other. 2. With the inherit resists, shield tanking this ship is great and I have used it very effectively in PVP.. however, as with some Minmatar ships.. I have to chose.. either a good active shield tank, or a mediocre armor tank with tackle. 3. First off, you weren't specific on the gun types..you merely said Battleships in your OP. If we are talking guns, then yes, arties absoultely need a boost and you have my full support on that. ACs, however, are pretty decent and make for some pretty serious ship configs in all three battleships. 6. And that was never the original intent, and that is where the disconnect exists between the players and CCP. Percieved player combat has been focused around blobs and large fleets. CCP has made Minmatar the designated "Skirmish" race, and Active shield tanking, capless weapons with mediocre damage, high speed, and low sig radius play great in that role. The downside is that those advantages disappear against a large fleet, where buffer tanks reign supreme. I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet.

NightmareX D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.27 20:30:00 - [151] Anyone who says a Tempest sucks have prooven to not know how to use the Tempest right. I'm very suprised that so many peoples here think they know so much about the Tempest only because they have used other battleships. Using a Tempest is a totally different world than flying a Mega or a geddon. You just have to use the Tempest where it's very good. And sadly, 90% of all who talks about the Tenpest is using the ship totally wrong. Like me, i know the Tempest 100% and absolutely know how to use it in PVP. There is a reason why Tempest is my favourite PVP ship. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.27 20:31:00 - [152] Originally by: Orakkus Originally by: ebonyivory 1)the nagl does 75% less damage than a rev and can do mroe dmg with unbonused lasers than arties.....the dual tanking thing makes its tank harder to fit well. 2)the only way to effectively tank a vaga is with speed....you CANT armour tank a vaga and you can barely shield tank it....so any other hac will rip it apart. Plus heavy tacklers are pretty crap when they have no tank to speak of. 3)ill have to go over this repeatedly wont i? what part of artillery is crap are you not quite getting? the impossibly small ammo cap? the fighting in falloff? the measily dps compared to lasers? So thats basically 50% of all the fits you can do for minmatar bses in the broadest terms (sniper or close range) 6)since minmatar rely on speed as an advantage it was the primary form of tanking for lots of their ships....in its nerfed state is doesnt really cut it against other tanks as the speed tanking ships find it hard to fit anything midly bufferish 1. As I mentioned, I still need to do some direct testing on this personally, but my initial thought process on the Naglfar is that if you need to do heavy damage, you shield tank it, and drop alot of Gyros in the lows. If you need a heavy tank on the other hand, you do sacrifice considerable DPS to achieve it, though it is possible to give it a 1.2mil EHP tank on the Naglfar. It just sucks that you have to chose one or the other. 2. With the inherit resists, shield tanking this ship is great and I have used it very effectively in PVP.. however, as with some Minmatar ships.. I have to chose.. either a good active shield tank, or a mediocre armor tank with tackle. 3. First off, you weren't specific on the gun types..you merely said Battleships in your OP. If we are talking guns, then yes, arties absoultely need a boost and you have my full support on that. ACs, however, are pretty decent and make for some pretty serious ship configs in all three battleships. 6. And that was never the original intent, and that is where the disconnect exists between the players and CCP. Percieved player combat has been focused around blobs and large fleets. CCP has made Minmatar the designated "Skirmish" race, and Active shield tanking, capless weapons with mediocre damage, high speed, and low sig radius play great in that role. The downside is that those advantages disappear against a large fleet, where buffer tanks reign supreme. trust me you dont need to test the nag it is terribad (yes i said it) i also consider that since only 50% of its fits are effective that the bs themselves are crap aswell large fleets are pretty much the only fleets u c these days so :(
Paige Halliwell	Posted - 2008.12.27 20:37:00 - [153] Oh great, now Minmatar are going to be like the Caldari and Amarr. I am a Minmatar pilot and you guys just need to use your imagination. Oh and btw if your painters don't work then you are doing it wrong. If you didn't know by reading the QR patch notes the Minmatar was going to be **** then you are the one that needs a buff...in the brain. You ever wonder why you see loads of Amarr ships out there? Wake up, have some variety in your game, quit whining and adapt ffs.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.27 20:51:00 - [154] Originally by: Paige Halliwell Oh great, now Minmatar are going to be like the Caldari and Amarr. I am a Minmatar pilot and you guys just need to use your imagination. Oh and btw if your painters don't work then you are doing it wrong. If you didn't know by reading the QR patch notes the Minmatar was going to be **** then you are the one that needs a buff...in the brain. You ever wonder why you see loads of Amarr ships out there? Wake up, have some variety in your game, quit whining and adapt ffs. amarr character detected so what your saying is that we should just put up with minmatar being the worst race....well you didnt actually give any real reason....
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.27 21:00:00 - [155] Originally by: ebonyivory i also consider that since only 50% of its fits are effective that the bs themselves are crap aswell If a fit is innefective then it's the fit that is crap, NOT the ship. Phoenix doesn't make good speed tank ships, salvage ships or miners you know. Fetchez la vache !
masternerdguy Gallente Gate Control Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.27 21:32:00 - [156] its never to late to train for a raven, jump on the caldari boat.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.27 21:35:00 - [157] Originally by: masternerdguy its never to late to train for a raven, jump on the caldari boat. as i mentioned earlier i flew caldari (before they were good) but then decided minnie was nice cause i liked the idea of nano and the cane was nice....however one cannot live upon 2 ships alone and ok maybe it is the fitting thats crap but nonetheless those 2 bses effectively cannot fit a competitive sniper fit....so fix arty!
Evan Batarr	Posted - 2008.12.27 22:04:00 - [158] Edited by: Evan Batarr on 27/12/2008 22:13:05 Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: Evan Batarr But come on - show me a Tempest fitting that is DD proof (1 x LV V DD - no matter the type), can lock & shoot over 200 km and does still a bit of dmg. With rigs, that's easy. What I got there is 289dps @ 144+44, Alpha 3287, sensor @ 249, 89k ehp, 3x trimarks Or without rigs I got 200dps @ 144+44, Alpha 2749, sensor @ 249, 88k ehp. Reading comprehension FTW. I bolded the important part. 144 + 44 = 188 km. Nowhere near 200 km or more. And at 188 km you do 140 DPS at BEST!. But I want to see the complete fitting. Come on. What is your locking range? Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: ebonyivory thats great.....now if only every other race couldnt do that and more dps at the same time :( With tiers 2 or 1, Caldari. Fail again. Tier II - Amarr and Gallente do better (Apoc & Mega) Tier III - Caldari (Rokh) And no, the Raven is not a fleet BS BTW, there is NO tier 1 Fleet BS (the Scorp has a different role)
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.27 22:32:00 - [159] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 27/12/2008 22:48:22 Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 27/12/2008 22:47:26 Originally by: Evan Batarr Reading comprehension FTW. (...) What is your locking range? Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn sensor @ 249 sensor @ 249 Also comparing tiers 2 with tiers 3 is not fair in my book. -edit- I'm just a noob in fitting Gallente ships. Tell me a unrigged fit for a mega that shoot over 200km/dd proof and still make what you call "decent dps" 'cause I can't find. I want to compare. What I've got is 335 dps / alpha 1847 @ 168+30, sensor @ 220, 66k ehp. @198k it's suposed to be 335/2 = 167.5 dps if I'm not wrong. And it's not dd proof as you can see. :/ -edit2- without calling me a noob or whatever or I would start calling names me too. Fetchez la vache !
Evan Batarr	Posted - 2008.12.27 22:51:00 - [160] Edited by: Evan Batarr on 27/12/2008 22:52:54 Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 27/12/2008 22:41:02 Originally by: Evan Batarr Reading comprehension FTW. (...) What is your locking range? Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn sensor @ 249 sensor @ 249 Also comparing tiers 2 with tiers 3 is not fair in my book. -edit- of and tell me a fit for a mega that shoot over 200km/dd proof and still make a decent dps 'cause I can't find. I'm a noob in fitting Gallente ships. It doesn't matter if a BS is Tier I, II or III. The point is that Minmatar have no fleet BS if you compare their ships to other races. Range is everything in today's fleet fights - if my fleet can shoot at 200 km effectively and the other side only at 150 km guess who'll win under most circumstances. You could fit a Maelstrom the way I described before Locus rigs stacked (but it was still the worst fleet BS) - now (since QR) it's impossible as well. And yes, it's not easy to fit a Mega that way - you'll need a 3% CPU implant. But Mega fleet pilots are used to that. And I never said unrigged - using rigs on a +100 Mio ISK ship shouldn't be a problem as long as the rigs are relatively cheap. I fly in a fleet to win - not to save my ISKies

Ehranavaar	Posted - 2008.12.27 22:53:00 - [161] by all means fix minmatar. there are far too many of them running about without owner's tags.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.27 22:56:00 - [162] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 27/12/2008 22:56:45 Originally by: Evan Batarr Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: ebonyivory thats great.....now if only every other race couldnt do that and more dps at the same time :( With tiers 2 or 1, Caldari. Fail again. Tier II - Amarr and Gallente do better (Apoc & Mega) Tier III - Caldari (Rokh) (...) BTW, there is NO tier 1 Fleet BS (the Scorp has a different role) I realise my expression is not as good as I would want for misunderstood like these. I'm irl sorry for this. I (try to) say Caldari tiers 1 and 2 were crapier fleetwise than pests. You'll have to put +33% isk in a sniping ship and training a new whole set of skill for gunnery (which is more or less 9m/10m sp). There is no possible comparaison between those two ships, they aren't same tiers. It's like comparing a vigil (minnie frig tier 2) and a rifter (minnie frig tier 3). Fetchez la vache !
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2008.12.27 22:59:00 - [163] Edited by: Random Womble on 27/12/2008 23:03:01 Edited by: Random Womble on 27/12/2008 22:59:43 Originally by: Orakkus Originally by: ebonyivory 1)the nagl does 75% less damage than a rev and can do mroe dmg with unbonused lasers than arties.....the dual tanking thing makes its tank harder to fit well. 2)the only way to effectively tank a vaga is with speed....you CANT armour tank a vaga and you can barely shield tank it....so any other hac will rip it apart. Plus heavy tacklers are pretty crap when they have no tank to speak of. 3)ill have to go over this repeatedly wont i? what part of artillery is crap are you not quite getting? the impossibly small ammo cap? the fighting in falloff? the measily dps compared to lasers? So thats basically 50% of all the fits you can do for minmatar bses in the broadest terms (sniper or close range) 6)since minmatar rely on speed as an advantage it was the primary form of tanking for lots of their ships....in its nerfed state is doesnt really cut it against other tanks as the speed tanking ships find it hard to fit anything midly bufferish 1. As I mentioned, I still need to do some direct testing on this personally, but my initial thought process on the Naglfar is that if you need to do heavy damage, you shield tank it, and drop alot of Gyros in the lows. If you need a heavy tank on the other hand, you do sacrifice considerable DPS to achieve it, though it is possible to give it a 1.2mil EHP tank on the Naglfar. It just sucks that you have to chose one or the other. As i posted before the nag cant fit a shield tank it lacks the CPU to do so and thats if you just fill the lows with beta cap power relays (mids 2 invulns 1 capital booster 2 SBA you can change some of those mods around if you want) which use 2.3 (i think) cpu with maxed skills now try replacing that with a 30+ CPU damage mod..... ok so you could fit a co proc but since the nag allready has 1 less mid/low than the other dreads and has to fit both a BCU and a Gyro to get the same percentage (not ammount) damage increase as any other dread that gimps it stupidly 3 mods where every other ship can do it in one. Read number 4 in my earlier post
Evan Batarr	Posted - 2008.12.27 23:04:00 - [164] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 27/12/2008 22:56:45 Originally by: Evan Batarr Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: ebonyivory thats great.....now if only every other race couldnt do that and more dps at the same time :( With tiers 2 or 1, Caldari. Fail again. Tier II - Amarr and Gallente do better (Apoc & Mega) Tier III - Caldari (Rokh) (...) BTW, there is NO tier 1 Fleet BS (the Scorp has a different role) I realise my expression is not as good as I would want for misunderstood like these. I'm irl sorry for this. I (try to) say Caldari tiers 1 and 2 were crapier fleetwise than pests. You'll have to put +33% isk in a sniping ship and training a new whole set of skill for gunnery (which is more or less 9m/10m sp). There is no possible comparaison between those two ships, they aren't same tiers. It's like comparing a vigil (minnie frig tier 2) and a rifter (minnie frig tier 3). OK, misunderstanding. But you cannot compare Frigs and BS that way. BS are much more together than Frigs are. And they have different roles - roles that really matter. Who (really) needs a sniper Frig for example? Take the Apocalypse for example - only Tier II but by far the best Fleet BS ATM. Even better than a Rokh IMO - 'cause it's cheaper. And here are the Mega specs you should aim for : 191 + 30, 267 DPS, locking range 220 km, 83 K EHP as lowest (against a Ragnarok) - all skills LV V in EFT (for easier comparison). As I mentioned it needs a +3% CPU implant - something Mega pilots are used to. They're cheap anyway - as well as the rigs used.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.27 23:11:00 - [165] Originally by: Evan Batarr Edited by: Evan Batarr on 27/12/2008 22:52:54 Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 27/12/2008 22:41:02 Originally by: Evan Batarr Reading comprehension FTW. (...) What is your locking range? Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn sensor @ 249 sensor @ 249 Also comparing tiers 2 with tiers 3 is not fair in my book. -edit- of and tell me a fit for a mega that shoot over 200km/dd proof and still make a decent dps 'cause I can't find. I'm a noob in fitting Gallente ships. It doesn't matter if a BS is Tier I, II or III. The point is that Minmatar have no fleet BS if you compare their ships to other races. You can't compare cross-tiers in bc, in fregate, in cruiser and with a much big difference again, in carriers. Why would it be true for bs ? "Oh, my Hel is so much better than other carrier tiers 1 so the carrier tiers 1 are hte suck". No. Especially on those ships, tiers 2 bses, they were "suposed to be" balanced before tiers 3 comes into conception. Originally by: Evan Batarr And yes, it's not easy to fit a Mega that way - you'll need (...) implant (...) rigs To me, and it's a very personal point of vue, implants and rigs shouldn't be used to make a viable ship. They should be used to enhance a good fit to make it omfg THE UBER, if you see what I mean. Anyway, if you start to make use of implants and rigs to transform an unsuccessfull "what you want" (dd poof/200k+/ dps) into a viable one, you are not showing ship are unbalanced : you are showing thats racials gunnery rigs and access to implants that are unbalanced. Start putting me a fit of a tiers 1 or 2 bs with all you want so we can compare. I made one tempest in ten minutes. I would want it unrigged and un-implanted so the logistic to get it is easy for anyone. Please. I want to see what are the results you want me to have. Fetchez la vache !
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.27 23:18:00 - [166] Originally by: Evan Batarr But you cannot compare Frigs and BS that way. BS are much more together than Frigs are. And they have different roles - roles that really matter. Who (really) needs a sniper Frig for example? I explained in my previous post why I don't think different tiers can be compared especially in BS. Originally by: Evan Batarr Take the Apocalypse for example - only Tier II but by far the best Fleet BS ATM. Even better than a Rokh IMO - 'cause it's cheaper. I can be quite wrong here but I heard Abaddon made fair snippers for a poor pilot. Amarr have great snipe boats. And they stick to it. Why don't they come close combat with their bses ? Originally by: Evan Batarr And here are the Mega specs you should aim for : 191 + 30, 267 DPS, locking range 220 km, 83 K EHP as lowest (against a Ragnarok) - all skills LV V in EFT (for easier comparison). As I mentioned it needs a +3% CPU implant - something Mega pilots are used to. They're cheap anyway - as well as the rigs used. k thx. Give me 5 minutes to come closest that I can. I'll use rigs and probably an implant or two. Fetchez la vache !
Evan Batarr	Posted - 2008.12.27 23:25:00 - [167] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn stuff Taking Carriers & Motherships into a comparison like that is simply . Seriously! And what you fail to see is that it doesn't matter if a BS is Tier X or not. A Sniper BS Fleet has certain needs - and if I can get at least one (or two in case of Gallente) BS of 3 races to fulfil the needs of such a fleet but none of the fourth race would you consider that balanced? And BTW - Rigs are totally common on (fleet) BS (as common as 3% CPU imps for Mega Pilots) - or nearly every other ship flying around. If you don't use them you'll lose or are at least at a serious disadvantage in most cases. So it's completely justified to take them into account.
Evan Batarr	Posted - 2008.12.27 23:30:00 - [168] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn I can be quite wrong here but I heard Abaddon made fair snippers for a poor pilot. Amarr have great snipe boats. And they stick to it. Why don't they come close combat with their bses ? Not come close combat ? Ever fought a Pulse Geddon? And the Abaddon is not a sniper. It's a great short/mid-range BS.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.27 23:32:00 - [169] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 27/12/2008 23:37:44 Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 27/12/2008 23:33:07 Originally by: Evan Batarr Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn stuff Taking Carriers & Motherships into a comparison like that is simply . Seriously! And what you fail to see is that it doesn't matter if a BS is Tier X or not. A Sniper BS Fleet has certain needs - and if I can get at least one (or two in case of Gallente) BS of 3 races to fulfil the needs of such a fleet but none of the fourth race would you consider that balanced? And BTW - Rigs are totally common on (fleet) BS (as common as 3% CPU imps for Mega Pilots) - or nearly every other ship flying around. If you don't use them you'll lose or are at least at a serious disadvantage in most cases. So it's completely justified to take them into account. Ok, ok... I still don't agree on tier 2 and tier 3 are comparable ships. Anyway. T1 rigs only ? Using T1 rigs only and a +5% implant, got this: [New Setup 1] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Sensor Booster II,Targeting Range Sensor Booster II,Targeting Range Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L Projectile Locus Coordinator I Projectile Locus Coordinator I Ancillary Current Router I Not sure if it's dd proof but got a lot of ehp. Do I pass your test ? tl;lazytoeft : 289dps/alpha 3287 @182 (this was hard) + 44, sensor @222 (can go until 249), ehp = 76k. I shouldn't be dd proof i guess. But not sure. Fetchez la vache !
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.28 00:06:00 - [170] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 28/12/2008 00:19:06 Originally by: Evan Batarr Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn I can be quite wrong here but I heard Abaddon made fair snippers for a poor pilot. Amarr have great snipe boats. And they stick to it. Why don't they come close combat with their bses ? Not come close combat ? Ever fought a Pulse Geddon? No, never :) Lots of Blasterthron. Amarr represent 10%/15% of the players according to one economic report, so these are not that easy to hunt :) Abaddon can make "fair" snippers. Let me see 5 minutes. -edit- no rig got 373dps/3006 alpha @ 154+25 (this is why they are only "fair"), sensor 160k, minimum 85k ehp @ DD kinetic, +1%pg. Quite not bad for a tier 1 that is suposed to be on par with scorpions and such. Fetchez la vache !

TimGascoigne The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.28 00:41:00 - [171] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Ok, ok... I still don't agree on tier 2 and tier 3 are comparable ships. Anyway. T1 rigs only ? Using T1 rigs only and a +5% implant, got this: [New Setup 1] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Sensor Booster II,Targeting Range Sensor Booster II,Targeting Range Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L Projectile Locus Coordinator I Projectile Locus Coordinator I Ancillary Current Router I Not sure if it's dd proof but got a lot of ehp. Do I pass your test ? tl;lazytoeft : 289dps/alpha 3287 @182 (this was hard) + 44, sensor @222 (can go until 249), ehp = 76k. I shouldn't be dd proof i guess. But not sure. -edit- it's all 4 DD proof (72k ragnarok at lowest). -edit2- with tech 2 locus I've got 289dps @ 198+44, rest of stat unchanged. T2 are not cheap so I guess you didn't use them. -edit3- not sure about the range locus rigs gives. My version of eft is not the last (2.8.1 post QR) that setup is unacceptable in a 0.0 fleet no FC will allow this. Because it has no micro warp drive and no DD tank (70000 damage)
Neutrino Sunset Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.12.28 00:50:00 - [172] It's got no MWD. Put an MWD on it like you can fit to all other fleet BS and then try again please. Plus you've mentioned several times now that Tempests get primaried in a fleet fight with the implication that it's because they are so uber. I don't think this is the case. I was under the impression that Tempests get primaried in a fleet fight because they have the worst tank, with the aim of removing your opponents dps from the field asap. Contrary to popular belief very rarely do fleet BS get instapopped by alpha even in 100v100 fleet fights despite the fact that on paper it looks like they should. This is down to many factors which include damage mitigation due to range and tracking and half your fleet being so lagged out that it takes them forever to lock. If a large percentage of your fleet are Mini snipers you have the additional problem of half of your fleet being out of action for a couple of minutes between each target to reload thus negating the whole 'arty alpha rules' misconception.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.28 01:08:00 - [173] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 28/12/2008 01:14:33 Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 28/12/2008 01:10:38 Originally by: TimGascoigne that setup is unacceptable in a 0.0 fleet no FC will allow this. Because it has no micro warp drive and no DD tank (70000 damage) Ooooooooooooook it's all 4dd proof (70313 damage at Level V). Check it. Really. Go check. A mwd was not a prerequisite with what he said. A mwd will destroy your tracking. If you want to move to another point you have covertops and inties for this. Also, minnies don't care, but it will destroy your cap. So if Amarr like loosing the ability to fire using mwd in fleets, I let this to them. Anyway i'd like to see the exact fit of the sniping mega before to compare a mwd ship with a mwd ship or whatever. -edit- and again mwd are not a standart in fleet bs since at least one year where did you see this. Since scripts nerf it's a luxury now. Fetchez la vache !
Neutrino Sunset Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.12.28 01:12:00 - [174] The MWD is needed for getting out of bubbles in 0.0, it's pretty much implicit in any fleet BS fit.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.28 01:18:00 - [175] Originally by: Neutrino Sunset The MWD is needed for getting out of bubbles in 0.0, it's pretty much implicit in any fleet BS fit. Getting out of bubble is suicide. You can't shoot since your tracking is ****. And you are webbed if the support knows how to play. You'll got the signature of the Eiffel tower with the speed of a bicycle :) Let's see the sniping mega fit before. I don't think he has a mwd. Let's use eft again... 5 minutes men. Fetchez la vache !
ColwirthMB Minmatar D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.28 02:23:00 - [176] Minmatar doesn't suck, you just don't have the skills to fly it. I mean, seriously. I have 72m SP, and I'm Still not doing it right
Rhaegor Stormborn R.U.S.T. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.28 02:27:00 - [177] /signing because Minmatar need a boost in a major way. CCP you need to balance Minmatar.
Toshiro Khan Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.28 02:41:00 - [178] @ Kweel I'm curious, what other race ships do you fly? I mean, I can compare all non-capital and non-industrial ships of all the playable races, due to being able to fly them all.. (That's all frigs, destroyers, cruisers, battle cruisers and battleships including their t2 variants and other then marauders, black ops and battle cruiser skills the rest are at level 5.) And at some point i have flown them all.. (Be it on tranq or on sisi.) I'm just wondering what experience outside of EFT do you have.
Adam Weishaupt Minmatar Bagman's Bookkeeping Services LLC	Posted - 2008.12.28 03:56:00 - [179] Boost Arty and all will be forgiven.
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.12.28 04:08:00 - [180] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 27/12/2008 23:59:15 Originally by: Evan Batarr Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn stuff Taking Carriers & Motherships into a comparison like that is simply . Seriously! And what you fail to see is that it doesn't matter if a BS is Tier X or not. A Sniper BS Fleet has certain needs - and if I can get at least one (or two in case of Gallente) BS of 3 races to fulfil the needs of such a fleet but none of the fourth race would you consider that balanced? And BTW - Rigs are totally common on (fleet) BS (as common as 3% CPU imps for Mega Pilots) - or nearly every other ship flying around. If you don't use them you'll lose or are at least at a serious disadvantage in most cases. So it's completely justified to take them into account. Ok, ok... I still don't agree on tier 2 and tier 3 are comparable ships. Anyway. T1 rigs only ? Using T1 rigs only and a +5% implant, got this: [New Setup 1] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Sensor Booster II,Targeting Range Sensor Booster II,Targeting Range Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L Projectile Locus Coordinator I Projectile Locus Coordinator I Ancillary Current Router I Not sure if it's dd proof but got a lot of ehp. Do I pass your test ? tl;lazytoeft : 289dps/alpha 3287 @182 (this was hard) + 44, sensor @222 (can go until 249), ehp = 76k. I shouldn't be dd proof i guess. But not sure. -edit- it's all 4 DD proof (72k ragnarok at lowest). -edit2- with tech 2 locus I've got 289dps @ 198+44, rest of stat unchanged. T2 are not cheap so I guess you didn't use them. -edit3- not sure about the range locus rigs gives. My version of eft is not the last (2.8.1 post QR) you must be using the old eft as locus rigs got stacking nerfed and don't work like this anymore. The actual range of this setup is 159km not 182km. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls

Stock Broker	Posted - 2008.12.28 05:14:00 - [181] Edited by: Stock Broker on 28/12/2008 05:19:00 Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn I realise my expression is not as good as I would want for misunderstood like these. I'm irl sorry for this. I (try to) say Caldari tiers 1 and 2 were crapier fleetwise than pests. You'll have to put +33% isk in a sniping ship and training a new whole set of skill for gunnery (which is more or less 9m/10m sp). There is no possible comparaison between those two ships, they aren't same tiers. It's like comparing a vigil (minnie frig tier 2) and a rifter (minnie frig tier 3). One thing I feel I should point out, is that your investment in gunnary to use a rohk is not wasted, because Caldari are not the only race to use Rails. So you training two weapon systems, is not a bad thing. Also Minne using Drones skills and even gunnary means they can cross train easiest, I would consider this a boon, because in the long run you are the most adaptable pilot. Edit: 3/4 races use missles significantly 1/4 races uses lasers (Makes up for this with AWESOME tanks and more focused training) 1/4 races uses projectiles (Lowest DPS) 4/4 races use drones 2/4 races use hybrid weapons
eve warrior Minmatar Filthy Scum Band of Renegades	Posted - 2008.12.28 11:06:00 - [182] Originally by: ebonyivory After observing cladari whine about how op every other ship is and then posting so many threads thast ccp caved and nerfed minmatar i figured that in the same spirit minmatar couldget a nice boost....or 10. Reasons minmatar suck 1)Capitals are by far the worst 2)Hacs are crap 3)2 of the bses are crap/subpar 4)split weapons suck 5)Recons are sub-par 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless (why spend 200mil on a polyvaga when youl get popped by a drake 0_o) If you support this buff post then post your own and if we build up enough then ccp will have to change it! Learn to fly your ships. Minmatar may have a few of the worst ships but we also have some of the best. I am pure Minmatar and i have never had a problem with there ships. YOU are the Problem. Lets see if we can get ccp to Fix You. Ew
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.28 11:19:00 - [183] just fix arty. rest i can see as 'ok'. my suggestion would be double the damage, half the RoF makes alpha mean business and wouldn't make the clip size seem so friggin small ---------- Seasons Greetings and have a Happy Alvis Time
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.28 11:26:00 - [184] Originally by: Toshiro Khan @ Kweel I'm curious, what other race ships do you fly? I mean, I can compare all non-capital and non-industrial ships of all the playable races, due to being able to fly them all.. (That's all frigs, destroyers, cruisers, battle cruisers and battleships including their t2 variants and other then marauders, black ops and battle cruiser skills the rest are at level 5.) And at some point i have flown them all.. (Be it on tranq or on sisi.) I'm just wondering what experience outside of EFT do you have. I played Caldari with a 30m sp char when a friend gave up Eve. He got back now. (NO that was not account sharing. I paid for transfert in and out.). Kweel is Minnie spec, but for T1 fregates. Being Matar, something is great. If I want to enter Amarr/Gallente ships, I just have to learn racial ship (frig/cruiser/bs) and small/medium/large hybrid or laser. And th other skills, I have. And that it. Caldari is even faster. I just need Caldari frig/cruiser/bs. I plan to make that at one or another moment. I'm no caldari/amarr/gallente expert I said anyway. Even in eft what do you say. I can't fit Amarr/Gallente effectivly since I never flown them. In eft fitting a Caldari is made finger in the nose. It's shield tank + missiles or full ecm 75% of the time. Since I'm matar I'm suposed to (since you seem to imply that I'm good at nothing else than matari ships) know how to : - shield tank a ship - armor tank a ship - speed tank a ship - make it ** projectiles, missiles and drones. Making ships **ting hybrid or laser doesn't [i]seem to be\|/i] that difficult. Anyway I can't test my fits. For now. Fetchez la vache !
Eran Laude Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.12.28 11:28:00 - [185] The races in EVE are on a cycle. It's been at various points when each race was the best in the game due to the nerfing of other races or a boost to their particular style of combat. Gallente and Caldari have had at least one period each where they've been undisputed top dog and everyone was training for them. Now it's Amarr due to the overall slower speed of combat ships in the current iteration of EVE, meaning that the terrible tracking on pulse lasers is almost a null issue and that snipers, of which the apoc is one of the best, are welcomed more than ever in most fleets. I would say that the next race to be top dog again in a forthcoming patch will be either Minmatar [most likely] or Gallente [who haven't been top for a while now], Caldari are a possibility, and Amarr are likely to get nerfed just as everyone finishes training Amarr Battleship V, prompting massive whines on zhe forumz! I would like to see another all-boost patch though, where broken ships [Sin, for example] are looked at, Black Ops get finally fixed and there is more equality between each race's ships up to a point. It shouldn't be the case that people fly Caldari because they want the only effective EW left, Amarr because they want the best battleships, etc. Each race should be able to be useful in it's own different way without cross-training. Cross-training should be about adding different capabilities to your skill repertoire, not about adding better ones, as it is at the moment.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.28 11:34:00 - [186] Originally by: eve warrior Originally by: ebonyivory After observing cladari whine about how op every other ship is and then posting so many threads thast ccp caved and nerfed minmatar i figured that in the same spirit minmatar couldget a nice boost....or 10. Reasons minmatar suck 1)Capitals are by far the worst 2)Hacs are crap 3)2 of the bses are crap/subpar 4)split weapons suck 5)Recons are sub-par 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless (why spend 200mil on a polyvaga when youl get popped by a drake 0_o) If you support this buff post then post your own and if we build up enough then ccp will have to change it! Learn to fly your ships. Minmatar may have a few of the worst ships but we also have some of the best. I am pure Minmatar and i have never had a problem with there ships. YOU are the Problem. Lets see if we can get ccp to Fix You. Ew once again another "we have afew good ships so lets just ignore all the bads ones despite others races having significantly more good ships" perhaps the problems is you because you fail to acknowledge that minmatar ships need a buff (the main focus being the caps and arty)
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.28 11:37:00 - [187] Originally by: Eran Laude The races in EVE are on a cycle. It's been at various points when each race was the best in the game due to the nerfing of other races or a boost to their particular style of combat. Gallente and Caldari have had at least one period each where they've been undisputed top dog and everyone was training for them. Now it's Amarr due to the overall slower speed of combat ships in the current iteration of EVE, meaning that the terrible tracking on pulse lasers is almost a null issue and that snipers, of which the apoc is one of the best, are welcomed more than ever in most fleets. I would say that the next race to be top dog again in a forthcoming patch will be either Minmatar [most likely] or Gallente [who haven't been top for a while now], Caldari are a possibility, and Amarr are likely to get nerfed just as everyone finishes training Amarr Battleship V, prompting massive whines on zhe forumz! I would like to see another all-boost patch though, where broken ships [Sin, for example] are looked at, Black Ops get finally fixed and there is more equality between each race's ships up to a point. It shouldn't be the case that people fly Caldari because they want the only effective EW left, Amarr because they want the best battleships, etc. Each race should be able to be useful in it's own different way without cross-training. Cross-training should be about adding different capabilities to your skill repertoire, not about adding better ones, as it is at the moment. the thing is ccp fails to recognise that minmatar are broken....the artillery problem has been around since the ehp buff and the capitals have pretty much always been crap....we had a really good selection of ships pre-speed nerf however that is now not the case.
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.28 11:46:00 - [188] Fit maelstrom with 800mm and barrage l fit antoher maelstrom with neutron blasters with null l. Look dps graphs with dmg mods. And see that neutrons with null will outdamage 800mm to 30km.
Oly26 Minmatar Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.12.28 12:26:00 - [189] Vagabond is still nice Recons - sucks totaly Muninn- that ship is awesome actualy, for sniping ofc Carrier - worst Mothership - good Dread - awesome(VERTICAL !) Command ships - Sleipnir still nice Battleships - sucks totaly, if we compare mega,apoc,geddon etc minmatar bs totaly suck Some ships sucked before nano nerf so there isnt problem in nano nerf at all.
NightmareX D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.28 12:26:00 - [190] ebony, stop failing and shut up about Minmatar. I have 55 mill sp and i have 3+ years of experience with Minmatar ships, and i can for sure say that what your telling about Minmatar stinks more than my poo. I'll probably have more sp in gunnery alone than you have in total. Minmatar is the thing i know best in EVE. So proove me wrong ebony. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'

Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.28 13:11:00 - [191] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 28/12/2008 13:14:38 Originally by: Typhado3 you must be using the old eft as locus rigs got stacking nerfed and don't work like this anymore. The actual range of this setup is 159km not 182km. Ok. Upgraded eft. A lot of people will be happy I guess. CCP PLEASE FIX ARTILLERY Look at this, it's not even viable fitting wise. [Fleet Snipe copy 2] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II,Tremor L Projectile Locus Coordinator II Projectile Locus Coordinator II Projectile Locus Coordinator I If anyone can make it shoot longer (not locking, only shoot), please enlighten me. The tempest can't shoot at more than 176+44, even with this silly and unrealistic setup. I know an ebonyivory that'd be happy now. Fetchez la vache !
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.28 14:32:00 - [192] Originally by: NightmareX ebony, stop failing and shut up about Minmatar. I have 55 mill sp and i have 3+ years of experience with Minmatar ships, and i can for sure say that what your telling about Minmatar stinks more than my poo. I'll probably have more sp in gunnery alone than you have in total. Minmatar is the thing i know best in EVE. So proove me wrong ebony. oh thats just great everyone you hear this its all ok it only takes 3 years of training to be good at flying minmatar \0/ and i dobut it since you have no idea who my main is <.<
Uagen Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.28 14:56:00 - [193] My char is pure minmitar, been playing eve for just over 4 years mostly pvp. I just want to run a quotes ive read: "The sleipnir has never really matched up toe to toe abso/astarte or even the nighthawk (but thats a bit diffrent from them all) and post QR it loses its one advantage of speed" Oh man... when i was in a pvp corp (505) this was by far my favorite ship, there is one pretty good little trick that the sleipnir can do, that being.... fit a BS sized X-Large shield booster (optional - personaly i prefer a faction large). Couple that with 2x amp and 7x 425mm t2 and 4 damage mods... well u get the picture, tbh ...it ate abso/astarte's for breakfast. Ive also been playing long enough to see that each race has its moment. last couple of years i see alot of people new to pvp and experienced, training for gallentee, the domi was the perfect ship at one point to lure unsuspecting victims in with its drones and nos ability, that ship could pretty much in its day take out anything... gallentee where "noob friendly" in my opinion. When i first started playing the Raven was top its tanking ability was insane, it was a favorite with pirates... many a time i used to pap it running from Waywatcher in his flashy Raven, also Burn eden put this ship to good use using sensor damps and armour tanking, or was it stabs? the slippery setup i think it was called also. Thing is though... not once have i ever wanted to train another race for this "advantage" i think i have the advantage. The tempest, you have 5 mids and 6 lows... hmmm... now theres some serious options here, i used to dampen down targets, Ecm targets, tracking distrupt, you can fit anything here its a great pvp ship... you can also fit a shield tank and go all out damage. Vargur... there is nothing you cannot hit, minmitar ships are all about hitting people... hard, Vargur should had been called "relentless" no matter where you are, if theres a battle and your being locked by one... your going to get hit alot, just the sort of bonus i want to see its perfect, just a pity the sensor strength of all these ships are to low. Vagabond was only ever an expensive tackler anyway, unless it had support or was shooting inferior ship class. One thing i will agree with, 1400mm t2 - i can still remember that sad day i was pirating and i lock up a new kind of ship... oh whats this i thought, it was a recon, and amarrian one, i lock up and start shooting... can you remember what you was doing when CCP nerfed the 1400mm cannon? Minnie has alwayas had one advantage in my opinion and thats its abilty to shield tank and fit max damage, most minne ships allow you to do so, this is there good point and i play to that, they change that... then we have a problem.
Evan Batarr	Posted - 2008.12.28 14:57:00 - [194] Edited by: Evan Batarr on 28/12/2008 14:57:15 Originally by: ebonyivory Originally by: NightmareX ebony, stop failing and shut up about Minmatar. I have 55 mill sp and i have 3+ years of experience with Minmatar ships, and i can for sure say that what your telling about Minmatar stinks more than my poo. I'll probably have more sp in gunnery alone than you have in total. Minmatar is the thing i know best in EVE. So proove me wrong ebony. oh thats just great everyone you hear this its all ok it only takes 3 years of training to be good at flying minmatar \0/ and i dobut it since you have no idea who my main is <.< Just ignore him - or check his 'impressive' Battleclinic stats As soon as people start bragging with SP you they have to compensate for something. Mostly it's lack of knowledge. @ Kweel - a MWD is mandatory for Fleet BS (I don't know of any FC who'd allow Fleet BS without MWD). Thought you know that. It's needed to get out of bubbles or for travelling to your destination, plated BS align like a brick. Switching on MWD for one cycle makes you warp in 10 sec (as soon as MWD cycle ends). I agree that a MWD cripples your cap but it really doesn't matter that much in laggy fleet fights. I once MWDed for about 15 minutes in my Maelstrom without using any cap . And here's another big disadvantage for Minmatar in fleet fights - we have to reload very often which in fact means there are a lot more possibilities our weapons get stuck in lag and we don't fire at all. Fleet BS don't have to be cap stable 'cause a) you don't fire all the time b) lag helps c) if it's not so laggy you have logistics d)you can always cripple your DPS a bit and still do damage e) things got better since QR 'cause the cap penalty got smaller with e.g. T2 MWDs. What looks like a big advantage for Minmatar on paper is only one while shooting POSses - and only if you have no logistic pilots. In 'normal' fleet fights cap is not really an issue.
Evan Batarr	Posted - 2008.12.28 15:06:00 - [195] Originally by: Uagen My char is pure minmitar, been playing eve for just over 4 years mostly pvp. I just want to run a quotes ive read: "The sleipnir has never really matched up toe to toe abso/astarte or even the nighthawk (but thats a bit diffrent from them all) and post QR it loses its one advantage of speed" Oh man... when i was in a pvp corp (505) this was by far my favorite ship, there is one pretty good little trick that the sleipnir can do, that being.... fit a BS sized X-Large shield booster (optional - personaly i prefer a faction large). Couple that with 2x amp and 7x 425mm t2 and 4 damage mods... well u get the picture, tbh ...it ate abso/astarte's for breakfast. OK, let's see, Shield Booster and 2 Amps, you also need a Cap Booster and a MWD. Errr, how do you tackle? I like the sleipnir very much, fly one myself, BUT it's role is very, very limited. And it got more limited since you can't nano it anymore. Shield Tank always means you need company. I doubt you 'ate' Astartes with that setup. Even if you outdamgage/outtank them - they simply warp away or MWD out of range (if you somehow fitted a disruptor) 'cause of the missing Web. And BTW, a fourth dmg mod is stacked to oblivion - wasted slot IMO.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.28 15:10:00 - [196] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 28/12/2008 15:12:54 Originally by: Evan Batarr Edited by: Evan Batarr on 28/12/2008 14:57:15 Originally by: ebonyivory Originally by: NightmareX ebony, stop failing and shut up about Minmatar. I have 55 mill sp and i have 3+ years of experience with Minmatar ships, and i can for sure say that what your telling about Minmatar stinks more than my poo. I'll probably have more sp in gunnery alone than you have in total. Minmatar is the thing i know best in EVE. So proove me wrong ebony. oh thats just great everyone you hear this its all ok it only takes 3 years of training to be good at flying minmatar \0/ and i dobut it since you have no idea who my main is <.< Just ignore him - or check his 'impressive' Battleclinic stats As soon as people start bragging with SP you they have to compensate for something. Mostly it's lack of knowledge. @ Kweel - a MWD is mandatory for Fleet BS (I don't know of any FC who'd allow Fleet BS without MWD). Thought you know that. It's needed to get out of bubbles or for travelling to your destination, plated BS align like a brick. Switching on MWD for one cycle makes you warp in 10 sec (as soon as MWD cycle ends). I agree that a MWD cripples your cap but it really doesn't matter that much in laggy fleet fights. I once MWDed for about 15 minutes in my Maelstrom without using any cap . And here's another big disadvantage for Minmatar in fleet fights - we have to reload very often which in fact means there are a lot more possibilities our weapons get stuck in lag and we don't fire at all. Fleet BS don't have to be cap stable 'cause a) you don't fire all the time b) lag helps c) if it's not so laggy you have logistics d)you can always cripple your DPS a bit and still do damage e) things got better since QR 'cause the cap penalty got smaller with e.g. T2 MWDs. What looks like a big advantage for Minmatar on paper is only one while shooting POSses - and only if you have no logistic pilots. In 'normal' fleet fights cap is not really an issue. Hi again Evan. I just changed my mind about artillery. Anyway, show me your megathron fit, 'cause the one you told me is near this one and it don't have a mwd : [New Setup 1] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Reactor Control Unit II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Sensor Booster II,Targeting Range Sensor Booster II,Targeting Range Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range 425mm Railgun II,Spike L 425mm Railgun II,Spike L 425mm Railgun II,Spike L 425mm Railgun II,Spike L 425mm Railgun II,Spike L 425mm Railgun II,Spike L 425mm Railgun II,Spike L Hybrid Locus Coordinator I Hybrid Locus Coordinator I Hybrid Discharge Elutriation I btw, I don't know many fc that jumps in outnumbered, if you see what i mean. Fetchez la vache !
NightmareX D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.28 15:10:00 - [197] Edited by: NightmareX on 28/12/2008 15:15:20 So only because i have a busy RL and don't have much time to play EVE now, does that means i'm a poor PVPer?. I rate one player after what he have killed, not after how many he have killed. And btw, using Battleclinic to show how many kills i have got is the crappiest place to look. It doesn't even have 1/5 of all of my kills i had from my first PVP day. In one of the first Pirate cops i joined i had 90 kills within 2 hours the first day in the corp. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
Evan Batarr	Posted - 2008.12.28 15:21:00 - [198] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn stuff You need to learn one thing ;) - a dmg mod is worth 2 guns. And then you don't need the RCU II anymore. And a MWD might fit, too . I was talking about being bubbled while on a snipe spot (just one example). Anyway - there's no reasoning about MWDs IMO. Never seen a FC who didn't see it as mandatory in 0.0. And I tend to agree. If I run a gang MWDs are mandatory, too (except for logistics - but they have to fit an AB).
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.28 15:31:00 - [199] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 28/12/2008 15:33:36 Originally by: Evan Batarr Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn stuff You need to learn one thing ;) - a dmg mod is worth 2 guns. And then you don't need the RCU II anymore. And a MWD might fit, too . I was talking about being bubbled while on a snipe spot (just one example). Anyway - there's no reasoning about MWDs IMO. Never seen a FC who didn't see it as mandatory in 0.0. And I tend to agree. If I run a gang MWDs are mandatory, too (except for logistics - but they have to fit an AB). See you soon anyway :) PS - I've got it. Shame on me defending the poor Tempest against this beauty. Fetchez la vache !
Uagen Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.28 15:36:00 - [200] Originally by: Evan Batarr Edited by: Evan Batarr on 28/12/2008 15:13:19 Originally by: Uagen My char is pure minmitar, been playing eve for just over 4 years mostly pvp. I just want to run a quotes ive read: "The sleipnir has never really matched up toe to toe abso/astarte or even the nighthawk (but thats a bit diffrent from them all) and post QR it loses its one advantage of speed" Oh man... when i was in a pvp corp (505) this was by far my favorite ship, there is one pretty good little trick that the sleipnir can do, that being.... fit a BS sized X-Large shield booster (optional - personaly i prefer a faction large). Couple that with 2x amp and 7x 425mm t2 and 4 damage mods... well u get the picture, tbh ...it ate abso/astarte's for breakfast. OK, let's see, Shield Booster and 2 Amps, you also need a Cap Booster and a MWD. Errr, how do you tackle? I like the sleipnir very much, fly one myself, BUT it's role is very, very limited. And it got more limited since you can't nano it anymore. Shield Tank always means you need company. I doubt you 'ate' Astartes with that setup. Even if you outdamgage/outtank them - they simply warp away or MWD out of range (if you somehow fitted a disruptor) 'cause of the missing Web. And BTW, a fourth dmg mod is stacked to oblivion - wasted slot IMO. And one more thing. Since you tanked it active I would guess you used it in low-sec (and you would need tackle gear even more). In 0.0 you nearly always buffer-tank (lag is one reason) and let logistics rep you. Unfortunately most ships are armor-tanked and logistics doesn't get you on killmails so you might not get the love you need. On the other hand you don't have to worry about tackling. Shield-tanking looks good on paper - in reality it's only really good for NPCing. I tackled buy using what is commonly know as the "corp mate" or "the nub" Ive used in low sec/ high sec with great effect, if i needed a scram i would again use the "corp mate/nub" option which i found freely avalible to me by my loving corp mates. Not sure what your saying with the killmail logistics thing, i assume you mean as the minnie is shield repper you dont get on kill mails and your corp mates will not love you for this? change corp. Shield tanking Sleph like is Bs counter the Malestrom is superb.. are you saying you want minnie ships to counter every encounter? there are to many variables.

Evan Batarr	Posted - 2008.12.28 15:42:00 - [201] Originally by: Uagen Not sure what your saying with the killmail logistics thing, i assume you mean as the minnie is shield repper you dont get on kill mails and your corp mates will not love you for this? change corp. Nope - I mean as most people are armor tanking the few guys flying logistics are mostly in armor logistics. Shield tanking is seldom so you might not get 'transfer love'. And there's a second reason why an armor buffer is superior - you have your shield as buffer so the logistics guys have a bit more time to rep you before you pop. As a shield tanker you have no such buffer. If you used a gang mate to tackle you should write 'WE ATE'. Anyway - I stick to my point. In low-sec I'd take an Astarte over a Sleipnir any day. Just for the reason I don't need to rely on somebody else. Might be a matter of play-style, too, of course.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.28 15:48:00 - [202] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 28/12/2008 15:48:40 Shield is superb. On paper AND in roaming gangs (and pve). In fleet, before you'lll know you're shooted at, you'll take serious shield damage. He's saying, and I think the same, that shield tanking depends too much on lag conditions... Also: end of warp you'll have 75%-80% capacitor. If you ar primaried at end of warp (example, in a cap ship), you start active tanking with 75%-80% cap. In an armor tanking cap ship, you are stilll primaried but you have all the shield removal time to regen capacitor to more or less 85/90%. You start active tanking at this cap. Fetchez la vache !
Dark Soldat Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.12.28 15:52:00 - [203] what did you expect from duct tape and rust ? ITS DUCT TAPE AND RUST !!!!! and cake if you happen to train the ragnarok If you are reading the above post you are not very bright.I live in Russia. I wear the fufaika, valenoks and the shapka-ushanka with the red star.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.28 15:56:00 - [204] Originally by: Evan Batarr Never seen a FC who didn't see it as mandatory in 0.0. As I said, see you soon Fetchez la vache !
Evan Batarr	Posted - 2008.12.28 17:17:00 - [205] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: Evan Batarr Never seen a FC who didn't see it as mandatory in 0.0. As I said, see you soon Took you a while And there's a Maelstrom fitting that our Minnie fleet pilots fly if by all means they don't want to cross-train or fly support. But it's much worse than the other races. I (well, my main does) fly Apoc - never thought as a Minmatar I'd fly the ships of our oppressors. As I can fly the ships of two races and soon Gallente, too, I could simply ignore what CCP did to Minmatar. But I don't - 'cause it's a shame and not everybody has (or wants to) trained 2 or 3 races ships and weapon systems. I really don't get why they can't balance the races better - if they swing the nerf bat they ALWAYS hit way too hard. And if they boost something they overdo as well. That all races are the FOTM from time to time is not balance in my book.
Ravelin Eb Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.28 17:22:00 - [206] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 27/12/2008 15:56:49 ebony, are you **ing **ed or what?. First you call us for idiot because we say Minmatar is good. And then you say the Tempest is crap only because the Artilleries is not so good. Uhm, i would say that the Artilleries are the crap here then, not the Tempest. But for me the Artilleries are good. But with my experience and 3+ years of using the Tempest, Vagabond, Hurricane, Jaguar and Rifter+++ i will say that your words about Minmatar is a **ing joke and troll. Please stop posting, you're a terrible 'pvper' as you never undock on live - let alone shoot things. The extent of your minnie experience streches to spinning your machariel around in stations and OWNING people on test with your hg slave set and t2 rig fit tempests. _________
NightmareX D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.28 17:35:00 - [207] Edited by: NightmareX on 28/12/2008 17:41:44 Ravelin. First, i haven't had a Machariel for like one and a half year now. Second, i'm not using sisi much now. I'm there some few times when i need to test something out. This thing that i'm a sisi ***** is sooooooo 2006 & 2007. And ask anyone in D00M if i'm good or not. You have to be a good PVPer to get into D00M. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
Mysteriax Scoopex	Posted - 2008.12.28 17:45:00 - [208] Indeed nightmareX is a known troll in minmatar topics. All the experience he has with a tempest are on the testserver. Slaved to the max. He always says his tempest does amazing but he never shown a video or posted his setup as far as i know. Also even if he can beat 1 or 2 ships solo all BSses are used for is or pure gank or Fleet setup. Which the pest cant do. 1v1 it isnt that horrible but noone does 1v1 anymore the big battles are won with Fleet BS and short range gank Pest cant do that. Phoon isnt bad in short ranged gank but you need 25+m SP
NightmareX D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.28 17:53:00 - [209] Edited by: NightmareX on 28/12/2008 17:55:45 Mysteriax, why i'am a troll for telling the truth about Minmatar?. Tbh, i'm actually one of the few players that know how to use Minmatar ship 100% right. It doesn't help to have an uber setup on the ship if you don't know how to use the ship. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
Ravelin Eb Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.28 18:20:00 - [210] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 28/12/2008 17:41:44 Ravelin. First, i haven't had a Machariel for like one and a half year now. Second, i'm not using sisi much now. I'm there some few times when i need to test something out. This thing that i'm a sisi ***** is sooooooo 2006 & 2007. And ask anyone in D00M if i'm good or not. You have to be a good PVPer to get into D00M. I dont need to ask anyone in D00M (ELITE PVP CORP ONLY ELITE PVPERS MAY ENTER), im going off from what i saw of you in INFOD. But please keep saying that you are an elite minmatar pvper with years of experience - with a massive 64~ kills in the several months you spent in INFOD. And just to add, you have never FLOWN a machariel, you even admitted you simply sat in it docked up all the time. ELITE PVPER SEVERAL YEARS OF MINMATAR EXPERIENCE LOL I TROLL U _________

NightmareX D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.28 18:34:00 - [211] Edited by: NightmareX on 28/12/2008 18:35:18 Ravelin, please don't make your self look like an idiot. I have owned 4x Machariels in my time, and i had plenty of kills with the 1st Mach i had. Yeah i only had xx kills in INFOD, but who ****ing cares?. It's ages since i was in INFOD. I'm different now if you haven't realized that yet. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
Ravelin Eb Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.28 18:45:00 - [212] Yes, your a terrible troll _________
NightmareX D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.28 18:52:00 - [213] OMG Welp, someone in an npc corp is calling me a troll. Damn, i can troll to, even from my iPod Touch. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
Kotori Gallente DeFianT Corp DeStInY.	Posted - 2008.12.28 19:00:00 - [214] Originally by: ebonyivory 7 Pages of crap Duude..... Minmatar far from suck. I have been flying minmatar for 2 years now. Before that ive flown through every race. And minmatar are by far the best and most fun of the lot of em. Ignore the fact that our sleipnir is possibly the single most amazing ship in game! With a stronger tank and better DPS than most battleships, with more speed. The rupture is the best cruiser ingame. The rifter is the best frigate ingame. We have less cap because we use less cap. I would love to see a megathron outcap and outdps my tempest. Our guns dont use cap, which is possibly our biggest strength. If our capacitors were as big as the other races then we would be ridiculously overpowered. No other race (except possibly amarr) can use 2 large reppers and a cap booster and survive a fight, whilst dishing out constant dps. Yes we take a little bit longer to train (ok a lot longer), but thats the good thing about minmatar. There are fewer of us because we take so long to train. It would be a bit boring if every other ship you saw was a tempest dont u think. Vagabond has always and will be "Oh ** you caught me, im dead now" kinda ship. If u stay outta range ure safe. If u dont ure screwed. And just think about how easy it is to fit a minmatar ship. Full rack of guns, full tank, all ur emods, and u fit to almost exact levels of cpu and powergrid. U try that on a megathron and ure having to sacrifice left right and centre to get it. Now dont get me wrong, i agree that minmatar could use a little bit of loving, artillery are pretty much dead out of the water, i would suggest maybe increase the alpha and lower the r.o.f, but hten that would make us overpowered even more so against smaller targets, and id get bored of waiting for guns to fire. It sucks that we have to fight in falloff, but that is how minmatar is, and we get to start shooting 20km sooner than most other people, cos our guns will hit that far. Our capital ships are tbh the coolest. They are the biggest, and the best looking, (ok , well the naglfar is the best looking). Nidhoggur is an amazing RRer, and id rather sit on the battlefield staring at a nagl than a pheonix or whatever else u wanna throw over to me. And we are still the fastest race, and have the lowest sigs, which means caldari cant touch us for **, and if they do, then you dont fly right. Oh and never ever forget all our different damaage types, only caldari come even close to us on that one, and its not as good as a good ol bolt of EMP L. Try actually flying minmatar, or tell us who ure main is and im sure we can come teach you how to fly them, at the cost of a few of ure subpar fitted ships. And quit the whining, its not pretty. ..........
Xephys	Posted - 2008.12.28 19:05:00 - [215] Originally by: Ravelin Eb Yes, your a terrible troll C ;) While I agree that Minmitar arties need to be boosted, as well as cap ships, a lot of our ships are really great, especially for PvP. I'm pretty happy with the way Minmitar are now.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.28 20:15:00 - [216] Originally by: Kotori Originally by: ebonyivory 7 Pages of crap Duude..... Minmatar far from suck. I have been flying minmatar for 2 years now. Before that ive flown through every race. And minmatar are by far the best and most fun of the lot of em. Ignore the fact that our sleipnir is possibly the single most amazing ship in game! With a stronger tank and better DPS than most battleships, with more speed. The rupture is the best cruiser ingame. The rifter is the best frigate ingame. We have less cap because we use less cap. I would love to see a megathron outcap and outdps my tempest. Our guns dont use cap, which is possibly our biggest strength. If our capacitors were as big as the other races then we would be ridiculously overpowered. No other race (except possibly amarr) can use 2 large reppers and a cap booster and survive a fight, whilst dishing out constant dps. Yes we take a little bit longer to train (ok a lot longer), but thats the good thing about minmatar. There are fewer of us because we take so long to train. It would be a bit boring if every other ship you saw was a tempest dont u think. Vagabond has always and will be "Oh ** you caught me, im dead now" kinda ship. If u stay outta range ure safe. If u dont ure screwed. And just think about how easy it is to fit a minmatar ship. Full rack of guns, full tank, all ur emods, and u fit to almost exact levels of cpu and powergrid. U try that on a megathron and ure having to sacrifice left right and centre to get it. Now dont get me wrong, i agree that minmatar could use a little bit of loving, artillery are pretty much dead out of the water, i would suggest maybe increase the alpha and lower the r.o.f, but hten that would make us overpowered even more so against smaller targets, and id get bored of waiting for guns to fire. It sucks that we have to fight in falloff, but that is how minmatar is, and we get to start shooting 20km sooner than most other people, cos our guns will hit that far. Our capital ships are tbh the coolest. They are the biggest, and the best looking, (ok , well the naglfar is the best looking). Nidhoggur is an amazing RRer, and id rather sit on the battlefield staring at a nagl than a pheonix or whatever else u wanna throw over to me. And we are still the fastest race, and have the lowest sigs, which means caldari cant touch us for **, and if they do, then you dont fly right. Oh and never ever forget all our different damaage types, only caldari come even close to us on that one, and its not as good as a good ol bolt of EMP L. Try actually flying minmatar, or tell us who ure main is and im sure we can come teach you how to fly them, at the cost of a few of ure subpar fitted ships. And quit the whining, its not pretty. "looking nice" does not a useful cap make as weve already pointed out...anyone who refuses to accept that artillery iis broken and most of minmatars ship are sub-par has boviousely never played minmatar or has a vested interest in keeping them nerfed
NightmareX D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.28 20:33:00 - [217] ebony, your so funny. Can i suscribe on your awesome newsletter about Minmatar?. You seems to know alot about Minmatar. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
KingCrown	Posted - 2008.12.28 21:04:00 - [218] Edited by: KingCrown on 28/12/2008 21:13:15 Minmatar Cap Ships make me sad :(. Please fix then i will be happy :)...Kotori has inspired me though...go MINMATAR LOL
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.28 21:06:00 - [219] Originally by: NightmareX ebony, your so funny. Can i suscribe on your awesome newsletter about Minmatar?. You seems to know alot about Minmatar. for someone with "epic" pvp stats you sure do know alot about minmatar...hwoever because your abit slow ill break it down there are a high proportion of minmatar ship that are sub-par compared to other races artillery is broken minnie caps SUCK speed isnt really useful for tanking asmuch as some people would like to think under these circumstances how is minmatar NOT broken?
NightmareX D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.28 21:24:00 - [220] Edited by: NightmareX on 28/12/2008 21:25:35 Artillery is not broken. End of story. They might not be as good as the other weapons, but still, for ME the artilleries are still good. As for capital ships that are meant for SUPPORT the Nidhoggur is doing the job best when it's about remote repping. It's not about who have the most hp or best tank. Speed is helping Minmatar ALOT, if you don't know why then you have never ever used a Minmatar ship in PVP. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'

d'hofren Queens of the Stone Age Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2008.12.28 21:33:00 - [221] Edited by: d''hofren on 28/12/2008 21:34:30 It's three four things really. * Arty - It used to be a scary thing with enough alpha to chew over half way into a cruiser in one volley. CCP stated, (quite rightly), that insta popping ships and 30 second one on one's, were rather boring. However when lpha lost it's role arty lost it's. Answer? I don't know, ever idea I have seen over that last few years either goes to far or falls short. * Split weapons - Two fold problem: a) Damage mods only give half rewards compared to trad one flavour high racks. This one doesn't really worry me that much, due to the below. b) Obscene levels of skill training, somewhat mitigated by the fact that once you have the skills the ships tend to have sufficient damage to mean that damage mods are a luxuary. * Active shiled tanking bonus - Little use in pvp bar the sleip which just happens to have enough grid to allow for oversized shield boosters paired withe the odd perversity that cap injectors are the only charge bearing item that still works on a size basis - a medium booster with 800 charges keeps a xl or l booster happy as long as charges remain. Even then once the charges are gone you have no tank left. Bieng mid slot based the tank does not sit well with tackle, speed mod, or ECM. That is a comon problem with Caldari. * Target panters - The only racial ecm that does nothing to mitigate incoming dps also probably the biggest black art device in eve. Most people aren't sure how they work and rightly or wrongly they are pretty much ignored. All of that makes for a stunningly diverse set of ships, with little continuity through ship sizes. Pretty much all other races just tank better and damage more as they rise through the sizes. Minmatar doesn't do that. Every ship is an odd ball, some work some just don't. (bear with me on this, spell checker add on for firefox has gone awol and these netbooks aren't easy to type on.)
gpfwestie Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.12.28 21:42:00 - [222] What ??? Minnie have the best ships in the game - look at the Huginn, Rapier and Vaga ! ... oh hangon ...
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.28 22:26:00 - [223] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 28/12/2008 21:25:35 Artillery is not broken. End of story. They might not be as good as the other weapons, but still, for ME the artilleries are still good. As for capital ships that are meant for SUPPORT the Nidhoggur is doing the job best when it's about remote repping. It's not about who have the most hp or best tank. Speed is helping Minmatar ALOT, if you don't know why then you have never ever used a Minmatar ship in PVP. once again just because your willing to put up with sub-par (and i mean really) sub-par weapons doesnt mean everyone else should. I mean comon u have to reload like every 4 shots which just serves to further lower your dps... also nids have the worst tank which means they get primaried first and dies first this wouldnt be so bad ofc if the rr bonus was higher...but it isnt How is it helping minmatar alot....vagabond now doesnt have enough ehp/cant fit a good enough tank to shrug off shots from smaller/similar sized ships
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.12.28 22:32:00 - [224] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 28/12/2008 18:26:42 Mysteriax, why i'am a troll for telling the truth about Minmatar?. Tbh, i'm actually one of the few players that know how to use Minmatar ships 100% right. It doesn't help to have an uber setup on the ship if you don't know how to use the ship. Edit: not sure on how many times i have posted my setup and the stats i get with that setup, but that's not few times. I can't post my setup now, because i don't have access to a computer now, so i'm posting from my iPod Touch atm. And a Typhoon is a ship i don't fear to meet in my Tempest at all. If only a few people know how to fly Minmatar ships, i would say CCP has failed horrible!!
NightmareX D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.28 23:39:00 - [225] ebony, you don't get how Minmatar works AT ALL, and won't listen to any of the experienced Minmatar players. Is there a point at all to make a topic like this when you already have made up your mind about Minmatar before you even made this topic?. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
SniperWo1f Omega Enterprises 0mega Factor	Posted - 2008.12.28 23:47:00 - [226] tho i lack mathmatical evidence laden with complex formulas based on closed set conditions of combat . i would say simply if you dont like em dont fly em . personally i love the minnie race and it's ships . would i like a boost yes please but i dont see a brutal end of the world need to patch it at this moment . lastly maybe the op should post his/her fittings in regards to each ship discussed with a breakdown of how that ship(s) should be used in combat either solo or gang "In Rust We Trust"
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.29 00:00:00 - [227] Originally by: NightmareX ebony, you don't get how Minmatar works AT ALL, and won't listen to any of the experienced Minmatar players. Is there a point at all to make a topic like this when you already have made up your mind about Minmatar before you even made this topic?. its not a discussion its a statement of facts 1)artillery sucks...theres no way around this it does its outclassed by practically every other sniper weapon 2)split weapons suck this is undisbutably true 3)naglfar sucks...more damage with unbonused lasers? just because you enjoy playing minmatar doesnt mean they dont need a serious buff i play minmatar but im left with a handful of capable ships (cane/sleip/rifter/rupture) because a good portion of the others are sub-par
NightmareX D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 00:26:00 - [228] Edited by: NightmareX on 29/12/2008 00:28:50 Well it's not a big suprise that Minmatar sucks for you when you don't have a single clue on how to use the ships. In your EFT world everything that have highest ehp, dps, sensor strength etc must be best. But sorry to dissapoint you, but that's not how it is. It doesn't help to be in a Mega with LOTS of EHP and DPS when your Mega can't hit a Vagabond for ****. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.29 00:29:00 - [229] Originally by: NightmareX well it's not a big suprise that Minmatar sucks for you when you don't have a single clue on how to use the ships. In your EFT world everything that have highest ehp, dps, sensor strength must be best. But sorry to dissapoint you, but that's not how it is. It doesn't help to be in a Mega with LOTS of EHP and DPS when your Mega can't hit a Vagabond for **. but then the vagabond will just get ganked by the megas drones.... look at the facts for gods sake....artillery is the ** no matter how you try and twist it and the bses are certainly sub-par as well as the caps
NightmareX D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 00:36:00 - [230] Hahahahahahaha, you say a Vaga will then just die to the Megas drones. What kind of ****ing joke player in a Vaga will die to drones? LOL. The drones will be my primarys until they are dead while i keep the Mega tackled. And when the drones are gone then i will continue to kill the Mega. I'm not a noob joke pvper like you are ebony. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'

Rexthor Hammerfists Rage of Inferno Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.12.29 00:44:00 - [231] Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 29/12/2008 00:44:43 Your smack is quite weak nightmare, even tho i agree with you. Minmatar dont suck, when flown right but for me its really the acs that make em shine, arties do the job good enough but the other guns do it better. If its worth using other ships because of this is up to ones taste really. - Rage is Recruiting
Ronha Ottrit Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.29 00:49:00 - [232] You always hear about carriers and dreads, and I guess all Titans are pretty much the same. How do the Motherships match up? Does it pretty much line up the same way?
Evan Batarr	Posted - 2008.12.29 00:50:00 - [233] Originally by: NightmareX Hahahahahahaha, you say a Vaga will then just die to the Megas drones. What kind of ****ing joke player in a Vaga will die to drones? LOL. The drones will be my primarys until they are dead while i keep the Mega tackled. And when the drones are gone then i will continue to kill the Mega. I'm not a noob joke pvper like you are ebony. No, but a bigmouth without comparison. Why don't you start to back up your silly statements with a few arguments or examples instead of bragging about your knowledge and uber PVP skills . I made the experience that people who like to pad their own backs usually lack whatever they claim to be able to do. Or just troll elsewhere - might be the best solution. And BTW, what holds true for the Vaga holds true for every cruiser sized ship. Not really a pro-Minmatar argument. Only shows there's a problem with Large Blasters/solo BS. The last patch made soloing in low-sec nearly impossible. But that's a different discussion.
NightmareX D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 00:52:00 - [234] Edited by: NightmareX on 29/12/2008 00:56:10 Rexthor, i'm not good at smacking because i only smacks back if someone is smacking me. PVP and how to fit ships and using the ships i'm using right is my strongest part in EVE. And Evan, when i have access to a computer or my own computer, then i can bacj up ny words. I will be back home 8. January 2009. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.12.29 01:04:00 - [235] Originally by: NightmareX Hahahahahahaha, you say a Vaga will then just die to the Megas drones. What kind of ****ing joke player in a Vaga will die to drones? LOL. The drones will be my primarys until they are dead while i keep the Mega tackled. And when the drones are gone then i will continue to kill the Mega. I'm not a noob joke pvper like you are ebony. No need to be rude and laugh at people. A mega should fit a neut in last high slot being able to take cap from a vaga pilot, or atleast forcing it out from megas neut range. But this also makes it possible for mega to warp out You see? It is allowed for other races then minmatars to play smart. If you take a pest and a mega and fit with equal good modules, and let equal skilled pilots fly them. It is no secret the mega will win. Simply because EVE has become dps+ehp = win. When both pilots are skilled 100% as you said you were in minmatars in an earlier post. It all comes down to math. Before we had much more different types of setups that were valid. Nos, ecm, tracking disruptors etc. All these has been nerfed, making it more and more important to have dps and ehp. Riggs and implants is part of making this even more valid.
NightmareX D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 01:16:00 - [236] Edited by: NightmareX on 29/12/2008 01:21:23 Happster, how often do you see a Megathron pilot fit a heavy neut?. The only times i see a few Mega pilots fits a heavy neut is when they are using Electrons. And no, most ehp and dps doesn't mean you automaticly win, because it doesn't help to have alot of ehp and dps when i can jam and dual neut your Megas ass, while i ofc shoot you in my Tempest. Anyone who think that most ehp and dps is the key to win, then you have failed EVE HARD. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.12.29 01:23:00 - [237] Originally by: NightmareX Happster, how often do you see a Megathron pilot fit a heavy neut?. The only times i see a few Mega pilots fits a heavy neut is when they are using Electrons. And no, most ehp doesn't mean you automaticly win, because it doesn't help to have alot of ehp and dps when i can jam and dual neut your Megas ass, while i ofc shoot you. Anyone who think that most ehp and dps is the key to win, then you have failed EVE HARD. Every time i undock my mega to fly solo it has a heavy neut fitted. So has most others from what ive seen Well when you jam me...i dont have much dps...do i? And if you should have chance to jam me in a mega, you would fit specific to hunt mega pilot. Even then you may get unlucky and dont get the jams enough to beat the ehp+dps. Btw....i fly 3 races with bs5, and their weapons at spec 4. So i feel i have a good fondation on my opinions. But i dont say all minnie bs are bad, or all minnie ships are bad. Just the mega will beat the pest
NightmareX D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 01:33:00 - [238] Saying a Mega will beat a Tempest is a lie. Everything can beat both a Tempest and a Mega. It all depends on the pilots and what kind of setup they are using. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.29 01:34:00 - [239] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 29/12/2008 01:21:23 Happster, how often do you see a Megathron pilot fit a heavy neut?. The only times i see a few Mega pilots fits a heavy neut is when they are using Electrons. And no, most ehp and dps doesn't mean you automaticly win, because it doesn't help to have alot of ehp and dps when i can jam and dual neut your Megas ass, while i ofc shoot you in my Tempest. Anyone who think that most ehp and dps is the key to win, then you have failed EVE HARD. ok sure now fit out a sniper pest/mael with arties and see how it fares against an apoc/abbaddon (hint youl lose) now fit out a fleet of nids against a fleet of chimeras with adequate support for each side and guess what (youll lose) fit out a nagl and fit out a rev and guess whol lose (hint its the nag) now shut the hell up
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.12.29 01:39:00 - [240] Originally by: NightmareX Saying a Mega will beat a Tempest is a lie. Everything can beat both a Tempest and a Mega. It all depends on the pilots and what kind of setup they are using. If same pilot skills, and pest vs mega. Mega do win. A plated mega can easilly sustain 2xneuts and still fire its guns. And when plated a mega does more dps then a pest can tank. As you are a skilled pilot i guess you allready know the basic rule to kill someone. Dish out as much dps as possible and make sure your tank last longer then your targets does. That way you win and he dies. It really is this simple. Sure you have methods to reduce your targets tank and dps. But no matter how you twist on it, it still comes down to ehp+dps.

Commander Yassir The Seven Sins	Posted - 2008.12.29 01:42:00 - [241] Wow.... Uhh.... Trolled? I thought the OP was a somewhat weak troll, but 7 pages, JESUS CHRIST! I have to give it a 10/10. ~ The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone to blame it on.
Ronha Ottrit Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.29 01:55:00 - [242] I feel ignored
NightmareX D00M. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 02:04:00 - [243] You haven't meet me in my Tempest. And i can guarantee you that if your in a Mega against me, your going to to have a hard time to survive. I'm not saying that i'm going to win over you, but your absolutely going to get a really really actionfull fight Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.12.29 02:08:00 - [244] Originally by: NightmareX You haven't meet me in my Tempest. And i can guarantee you that if your in a Mega against me, your going to to have a hard time to survive. I'm not saying that i'm going to win over you, but your absolutely going to get a really really actionfull fight I'm sure it would!
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.29 03:45:00 - [245] Originally by: NightmareX And Evan, when i have access to a computer or my own computer, then i can back up my words. I will be back home 8. January 2009. When you'll got acvcess to a up to date eft, you'll have big surprises. I tried to post fit using a pre QR eft, and there's a lot of differences for us esp. on artillery. It sucks now. I had on par tier 2 bses without the locus nerf. Fetchez la vache !
CHAOS100 Black Plague. Kraftwerk.	Posted - 2008.12.29 03:59:00 - [246] Edited by: CHAOS100 on 29/12/2008 03:59:08 Originally by: MotherMoon But yeah don't wrry some day it will be minmatar online, If you logged in eve 07-08 you may have had your wish. I trained minmatar after being a gallente char during its prime uber time, never used a gallente ship after than for 2008 (except for the bs). Now my main has dual trained 2 sub-par races, but at least gallente have good BS and the ishtar, maybe even the arazu now. Plus my alt is now Amarr/Caldari specced, so whatever changes in the future are good. (just stop nerfing gallente ffs) --------------
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.29 09:06:00 - [247] http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=18503 <- tempest http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=19010 <- nagflar http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=13793 <- nidgohur
techzer0 IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.12.29 09:11:00 - [248] Originally by: Onewingedangel Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny I fly Minmatar almost exclusively, best ships in the game when you have the skills Key statement, Minmatar always have been and always will be eve on "hard mode." They require the most SP and the most piloting skill to be viable in combat. I would argue that to be effective as a minmatar pilot requires +- 3x as many SP as caldari. ie, 5mil to 15mil i think is a decent comparison. Seriously, I have been flying minmatar for years. Stop whining and learn how to fly. Whenever a race doesn't have the best ship in a certain class they think they are entitled to it. Agreed. This thread made me lol to be completely honest. If minmatar sucked, my buddy Lorzion and I wouldn't be near the top of our killboard, or every killmail we get on ------------ Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.12.29 09:12:00 - [249] Originally by: Evan Batarr As I can fly the ships of two races and soon Gallente, too, I could simply ignore what CCP did to Minmatar. But I don't - 'cause it's a shame and not everybody has (or wants to) trained 2 or 3 races ships and weapon systems. I really don't get why they can't balance the races better - if they swing the nerf bat they ALWAYS hit way too hard. And if they boost something they overdo as well. That all races are the FOTM from time to time is not balance in my book. /signed can fly caldari/matar on main and alt is amarr but I love minmatar would like to see all races balanced but to have their racial strengths and differences. Minmatar need to have our racial strength brought back right now the only worthwhile racial strength is speed/sig and to a lesser extent flexibility. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.29 09:27:00 - [250] Btw nighmarex is known to use best faction fits and implants on sisi.

ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.29 13:35:00 - [251] bumping because otherwise nothing will change
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.12.29 13:39:00 - [252] Originally by: Kalintos Tyl http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=18503 <- tempest http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=19010 <- nagflar http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=13793 <- nidgohur Fixed Fetchez la vache !
Jalif Black Sinisters	Posted - 2008.12.29 13:57:00 - [253] Edited by: Jalif on 29/12/2008 13:57:45 Only problem that I notice with minmatar is that they don't live up to their name. They were meaned to be the hit & run race and speed should be our thing. I would like to see more speed ships. The stabber & vegabond itself don't cut it. I want to be more original then other races. We have 4 diffrent main weapon systems. Hybirds, Projectile, Laser & Missiles. They are all diffrent but the Hybirds & Projectile are to close to eachoter. I would like to see for projectiles direct linking to the cargohold. This should also aply for artillery. There will be no major changes, only the fact we get the ammo directly into our guns instead of reloaling when the guns are empty. The guns themself can have a little chance without improving their damage output or whatsoever. Since you need to fight in falloff with minmatar, you basicly need t2 guns before you can be effective. Why don't we increase the falloff of all guns with 50% and make a little change to barrage. It could be a 25% increase of falloff instead of 50% what we have now or less damage but 100% better tracking? Newer players can get into pvp faster without having to wait 3x longer. I just trew here some ideas. I like minmatar how they are. I know they have some "lacking" ability in some areas. The only problem that I have is they look to much compared to the other races.
Cyrus Brown	Posted - 2008.12.29 15:22:00 - [254] Minmatar need to have some sort of benefit. Being the fastest means nothing anymore, when speed has been nerfed, and the % of speed we have over other races if laughable and does not translate into any sort of advantage in most situtations. Our electronic warfare is a joke, webs on our recons have been nerfed, our marauder is terrible, our carrier is terrible, our dread is terrible and takes FOREVER to train for, our loldps in falloff is terrible, our sniper BS (Tempest) is the lowest dps, shortest range, joke of a sniper ship, the Muninn is not worth it compared to a Hurricane, etc etc etc. Please CCP, do something.
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.12.29 16:34:00 - [255] Originally by: Cyrus Brown Minmatar need to have some sort of benefit. Being the fastest means nothing anymore, when speed has been nerfed, and the % of speed we have over other races if laughable and does not translate into any sort of advantage in most situtations. Our electronic warfare is a joke, webs on our recons have been nerfed, our marauder is terrible, our carrier is terrible, our dread is terrible and takes FOREVER to train for, our loldps in falloff is terrible, our sniper BS (Tempest) is the lowest dps, shortest range, joke of a sniper ship, the Muninn is not worth it compared to a Hurricane, etc etc etc. Please CCP, do something. just a slight correction. Tempest is not the lowest DPS sniper. IT has higher DPS than rokh and mega. Lower damage over time after ammo reloads would be truth. On the rest you are correct.
Viqer Fell Minmatar When Hippo Attacks Go Wrong	Posted - 2008.12.29 18:02:00 - [256] Originally by: ebonyivory First off with 80mil sp im pretty sure any ship would be good... I guess then that this means if any ship is good with enough skills, then it's not the race that's bad, it's just your abilities that are.
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.12.29 20:02:00 - [257] Originally by: Polinus Originally by: Cyrus Brown stuff just a slight correction. Tempest is not the lowest DPS sniper. IT has higher DPS than rokh and mega. Lower damage over time after ammo reloads would be truth. On the rest you are correct. This may be true at 150km. If you snipe at 170km++ and at 200km++ and out, the comparing becomes laugheble as pest cant hit much at all above 200km. The rokh on the other hand will keep dishing out dps.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.12.29 20:38:00 - [258] yeah the minmatar need a boost because the amarr have been boosted so much we are overpowered now Trashed sig, Shark was here
Sean Faust Gallente Point of No Return Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.29 20:39:00 - [259] Originally by: ebonyivory After observing cladari whine about how op every other ship is and then posting so many threads thast ccp caved and nerfed minmatar i figured that in the same spirit minmatar couldget a nice boost....or 10. Reasons minmatar suck 1)Capitals are by far the worst 2)Hacs are crap 3)2 of the bses are crap/subpar 4)split weapons suck 5)Recons are sub-par 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless (why spend 200mil on a polyvaga when youl get popped by a drake 0_o) If you support this buff post then post your own and if we build up enough then ccp will have to change it! 1. Agreed. Minmatar capitals need a LOT of love. The only reason to choose a Minmatar carrier or dread over any other race is if you happen to already have Minnie BS V. 2. Muninn is crap, agreed. Vaga however is in better shape than ever because the missile and tracking nerf OVERcompensated for the speed nerfs. Vaga may not be able to touch Interceptor speeds now (and rightfully so) but it's still ridiculously fast for a cruiser, so fast that it can outrun the tracking of most guns and laugh at missiles. 3. Again, agreed. And the Phoon is only made viable because if its "WTF IS THAT" factor considering the myriad of ways you can fit it. By the time you've got its fitting figured out you're already sitting in a pod. 4. While the 'phoon and Huginn may be a victim of this atrocious truth, with all the rest you can view the launcher hardpoints as utility slots for nos/neut/cloak/salvager and all of a sudden it doesn't seem so bad now does it? Nobody else gets a BC with 8 weapons in the highs, so shut up. 5. Recons were hit hard by the web nerf and subsequent lack of need for them considering that warp scrams can now do their jobs. Arazu > Rapier now, because it can now do the Rapier's job, only better (minus the range). There is a need for target painters now yes but they do the job fine unbonused. 6. Speed tanking has been replaced by speed/Sig radius tanking, which the minnie t2 frigs do better than anyone else, and the Vaga still does effectively "speed tank". So maybe the Sleipnir can't do it anymore, it's a damn battlecruiser.
Marzzola Minmatar Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.29 22:56:00 - [260] rapier is still an decent ship as long as you know your role. Been using it to scout on roaming gangs to great success. With a shield buffer tank and ECM drones and you can easily hold a point on something until the rest of your gang arrives to take over and kill it. In an actual engagement, dual cruisers and frigs and they are still going to die fast. It just won't keep you stuck in one point in space like it would before, which was over powered. The main thing to remember is everything else is going slower now as well. And if you fit a probe launcher you can tackle people at a safe spot much more effectively than a covops will. You're an intel tool and primay tackler, which the rapier still does well. I don't have much experience with the huginn since a rapier is usually more useful, or a HAC be better for DPS. Artillery either need a slight boost to optimal range and/or a boost to their alpha to make fighting at closer ranges more worthwhile. It doesn't need to be too extreme like many people are calling for. Tempest could also use a boost to locking range. with all 5 skills and 2x SB II's, you can get to 190. Past that you need either an implant or a rig. For hurricane vs muninn debate, if you want more damage go hurricane, if you want the safety of longer range go muninn. Boosting artillery will make them on par with the equivalent ships of other races. If you want a close range ship the hurricane can also do this well or use a vagabond. The utility high slots on the hurricane somewhat make up for the poorer DPS from fighting in fall off. However, i wouldnt object to a boost. And I also still see vagabonds used effectively. Its just tougher than it once was and you need to know when to disengage. However, I normally don't fly close range ships so i'll leave that up to others to debate. broadsword is good ship, minny command ships are still pretty good, and phoon can be awesome as a close range ship but as many have said it is very skill intensive. i'm not a cap ship pilot so i cant really comment on those. Minmatar could use some love, but the situation isn't all that bad at the moment. Boost artillery and tweak a few of the ships and they'll be fine. I'm going to keep flying minmatar the way they are and hope CCP look into boosting them soon. i'm getting a headache from writing this in the car so I will leave it at that.

ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.30 18:19:00 - [261] bump cuz minmatar aint fixed yet >.>
Alz Shado Ever Flow Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.12.30 18:29:00 - [262] All the problems with Minmatar could be solved by removing the T2 ammo penalties. I'm just saying. á ----------------------------------------- "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
Lady Karma	Posted - 2008.12.30 18:32:00 - [263] Originally by: NightmareX You haven't meet me in my Tempest. And i can guarantee you that if your in a Mega against me, your going to to have a hard time to survive. I'm not saying that i'm going to win over you, but your absolutely going to get a really really actionfull fight NightmareX, have you ever killed another BS solo in your tempest? Please link the mail, otherwise you are just theory crafting and talking eft numbers just like the ill informed OP.
EliteSlave Minmatar M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.12.30 18:38:00 - [264] the capitals need work big time, specially the Naglfar it needs to be made either Torpedo only, or Arty / AC only. pay no mind to nightmarex he talks from his EFT / Days on SISI
Doppleganger Minmatar Libera Mentem Tuam	Posted - 2008.12.30 19:02:00 - [265] Well I'm not against boosting minmatar ships I have been flying them for 5.5 yrs and had every few complaints with them. Probably my biggest complaint was back when I started to fly the tempest and noticed when you add up the shield hp, armor hp and structure hp on all the tier 2 battleships most of the races had = total hp except the tempest that had much less. <shrug> The other prob I had was we have or had the fastest ships with the slowest tracking main guns (artillery). Otherwise I never had much of a complaint with minmatar ships and I have flown almost all other races ships as well but if you want to boost them who am I to argue.
Rassja Trans-Solar Works	Posted - 2008.12.30 19:27:00 - [266] Edited by: Rassja on 30/12/2008 19:34:20 my 2 cents weapons - Buff arty. Burst damage is crap since that hp buff. either just buff arty dmg or perhaps double damage but they fire half as often? make burst dmg viable again... AC's - give minnies barrage-class t2 ammo in EMP and Phased Plasma. t2 missles come in every damage type and its crippling to not have the much-vaunted variable dmg option on minnie ships. Mostly minnie ships are fine, sub capital level. tempest's extra midslot is much more useful post qr, but i think it needs a bit of love - perhaps give it a falloff bonus and a 7th turret or change one of the bonus's to 7.5% so its dmg doesnt suffer too horribly (as the other bonus would be replaced by the falloff bonus) all the other race's get a "range" bs bonus - raven, rohk, and apoc - and vargur setups have explored the possibilities of falloff setups quite nicely. Muninn is just terrible. the script-changes are what destroyed this ship, and if you give it an extra midslot to allow for an extra sensor booster or tracking computor or LSE or something it might become much more viable. Nidhoggur. It is NOT the best triage carrier. period. It has the worst self-tank out of all carriers, and that is THE most important thing about a triage carrier since it has to survive on its own self-rep. Give it a self-rep-amount bonus that would make it tank as well as an archon in triage mode and then it would indeed live up to what its supposed to be doing. Naglfar. Tough one. best solution would be to make it triple ac weapon platform, but then all of the people that trained capital torps would be ****ed off. Perhaps a cpu buff so it can fit a solid sheild tank and use its lows for dmg mods. Edit - naglfar's variable damage is sometimes argued as a pro. ive seen seiges against specifically em-thermal tanked pos's where the nag's were hitting the 0% resists and the rev's were hitting the 50%/25% resists, and the revs on average still did around DOUBLE the damage of the nag's. revs have far superior dps and tank and dont have to factor in reload times. So, i for one, dont buy the "diffrent damage type" arguments.
Jukhta Mein Domini Umbrus R.U.R.	Posted - 2008.12.30 19:39:00 - [267] What is CCP's stand on Minmatar?
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.30 22:38:00 - [268] quote one dev "Tempest is fine"
Beet Head Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.30 22:50:00 - [269] Don't fix Minmatar, fix Gallente. Or failing that, fix Thukker and Khanid, but not Amarr or Caldari. And definitely not Gallente. Wait.. what?
Bart Starr	Posted - 2008.12.31 11:11:00 - [270] ok having read half the post just 2 things 1 Triage sucks balls unless you have a POS you are desperate to save and are willing to throw away a few carriers. 2 Nid/Thanny tank equally as badly the nids bonus only works in its favour if every carrier in the gang is nidhoggurs so they all get the RR boost and help eachother more on top of that a chimera or archon still benifits more from their bonuses because their resistances have the same effect as having a repping bonus (from the perspective of being repped) but those resistance bonuses also add to the EHP and the personal tank of the carrier in question on top of that archon/chimera have the ability to fit more tanking mods than the other 2 carriers giving them even more of an advantage if you dont want a stable tank. 3. Someone mentioned the RR bonus makes the nid use more cap/s: WRONG then changed it so its a rep ammount bonus not the old rep time bonus which did used to make it eat more cap/s. 4. THE NAGLFAR it is broken pure and simple for a start because of its extra high slot it has one less utility slot (mids/lows) however this is silly the extra high slot gives it no benifits due to the split weapons system and low intial DPS of cit torps/capital projectiles and also as a consiquence of the split weapons the extreem difficulty to fit any damage mods effectively, mean that the moros or revelation can do double the DPS of the nag (and thats not just EFT theory thats from use ingame of all those ships) the phoenix amittedly suffers simmilarly low dps but can fit damage mods to compensate plus the second part is important. Due to the high CPU usage of the citadel torp launchers and having 2 launchers + two turrets really takes away alot of the CPU, however the moros, which yes uses hybrids which in turn are some what CPU intensive but in the end 3 of which equal the CPU of 2 launchers + 1 equivalent range gun, has 50 more CPU than the naglfar ok yes it has 1 more mid/low slot but that should take around 20-40 CPU fitting an equivalent set of guns on a nag uses 80 more CPU exactly for both sets so in reality the nag should have 40-60 MORE CPU than the moros. Iknow this is rambling but this leads me to my final point on this ship and the reason the phoenix in smaller groups (it probs needs a buff too tbh) is redeemed slightly: Capital shield tanks in siege, capital shield tanks are better than armor tanks for personal tanks be it sustanable or burst and in siege mode the diffrence is emphasised the phoenix can fit one, so can the moros, the naglfar cant (which considering minmatar capitals were intially meant to be able to field shield tanks is silly) even with CPU implants you can just about fit one if you spend 600mil on faction hardeners. So basically the nag does suck yes it looks nice and diffrent but it needs an extra mid slot and more CPU or to be switched to a pure projectile boat with 3 turret hard points and 4 total high slots. Also the TCF guy mentioned minmatar ships being best in 7 classes including destroyer, command ships and T1 frigs, T1 cruisers destroyers no one uses command ships well post nano nerf clamore is only slightly better than the EOS but much much worse than vulture/damnation. The sleipnir has never really matched up toe to toe abso/astarte or even the nighthawk (but thats a bit diffrent from them all) and post QR it loses its one advantage of speed frigates are debatable and not that regularly used tho rifter admittedly is pretty good the punisher is probably better with lasers or autocannons and you were talking the best not just good. cruisers again rupture is pretty good but thorax or vexor even is better stabber is fairly unique however other ships are just better and again post speed nerf its not astounding.

Horizon Taker Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.12.31 11:52:00 - [271] I'm fine with the fact that Minmatar takes a crapload of more thought and SP to fly, and that there's the sort of "you have enough SP to fly a capital, so now you can own with a Typhoon" mentality. That doesn't bug me at all as a Minmatar pilot. What makes me angry is that once I get up to my neck in Minnie training (Proficient at both Shield AND Armor, Large AC II/Arty II and it's predicessors, actually into a dread/carrier etc etc etc), there are so many pitfalls. There are too many pitfalls to Minmatar and while they don't need some omgwtf boost that makes it so they're as easy to pilot as Caldari for PVE or Amarr/Gallente for PVP, I want my training to eventually add up and shine.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.31 11:53:00 - [272] Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 31/12/2008 11:53:41 Making the thread epic?.... *Edit: Ah crap... ---------------------- Putting the sensual in nonconsensual
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.12.31 12:52:00 - [273] Edited by: Laechyd Eldgorn on 31/12/2008 12:52:20 Originally by: ebonyivory The onyx can fit a better tank than the broadsword. not in my eft. broadsword is not only formidably faster but has better tank, thanks to high em resistance. It lacks range though, which makes onyx better for gang dps. I guess it depends on what you want to do... :D Furthermore. My capital alt flies minmatar exclusively. They're fine. Muninn is awesome etc. Also poasting in n:th page.
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.12.31 13:03:00 - [274] Originally by: Kalintos Tyl quote one dev "Tempest is fine" most funny is this same dev apeared in a screenshot on the Quantum Rise features page before the expansion release. And it was flying an APOC with 6 Mega Beams with AURORA and firing at 16 KM target (another player on sisi). With that skill to test.. the "tempest is fine " quote purely means.. "omfg!! tempest completely sux!!!"
Bart Starr	Posted - 2008.12.31 15:30:00 - [275] ok id like to make 1 thing clear....i dont want minmatar ships to be the best out of everything (would be nice ofc) id just like them to be able to compete at the same lvl as other ships of their class oh and i just drew some stuff up on eft (all t2 ofc and no triage you noob youl do no dps!!!!) chimera has 1.3mil ehp nid has 1.07mil ehp nid has 2.8k burst tank caldari has 5.4k burst tank fittings are as follows nid hi's 2 large smarties 2 capital armour rrs 1 dcu mid's 2 sensor boosters 3 cap rechargers low's 2 eanms 1 armour explosive hardener 1 dcu 2 capital armour reps chimera hi's 2 capital shield reps 2 large smarties 1 dcu mid's 1 capital shield booster 2 boost amps 3 invulns 1 sensor booster low's 3 cap fluxes 1 dcu so yeah... (althoguh my fits may not be brilliant they give a basic idea of tanking capabilities) ninjaedit: i fly minmatar (used to fly vaga) now im solely confined to flying a hurricane/sleipner until i finish training harbinger which does practically the same dps with more ehp.
ZoXXX	Posted - 2009.01.02 11:56:00 - [276] Quote: The fastest cruiser invented to date, this vessel is ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required. Its on-board power core may not be strong enough to handle some of the larger weapons out there, but when it comes to guerilla work, the Vagabond can't be beat. Quote: Brutor tribe's philosophy of warfare: simply fit as much firepower onto your ship as possible. Defense systems and electronics arrays therefore take a back seat to sheer annihilative potential. lets take a look [Zealot] 3 X Heat Sink II 5 X Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M 489 DPS [Deimos] 3 X Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 5 X Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M 535 DPS [Cerberus] 3 X Ballistic Control System II 5 X Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Assault Missile 420 DPS [Vagabond] 3 X Gyrostabilizer II 5 X 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 403 DPS First, thanks to EFT. We have seen that Minmatar lacks in defence. Where is that "firepower"?
Vibora BR	Posted - 2009.01.02 13:49:00 - [277] Really buff Minmatar. Dual weapons systems are really a joke and take a lot more time to train up without any advantage. We need training drones, projectiles, missiles, shield and armor do be below average. Our Marauder is near useless by price as well as the Muninn. Our electronic warfare bonuses are also near useless. Please don't try comparing it with ECM as example. Having big Falloff and small optimal makes you losing a lot of DPS when you goes out the optimal.
Pesadel0 Minmatar Vagabundos	Posted - 2009.01.02 14:06:00 - [278] Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn Edited by: Laechyd Eldgorn on 31/12/2008 12:52:20 Originally by: ebonyivory The onyx can fit a better tank than the broadsword. not in my eft. broadsword is not only formidably faster but has better tank, thanks to high em resistance. It lacks range though, which makes onyx better for gang dps. I guess it depends on what you want to do... :D Furthermore. My capital alt flies minmatar exclusively. They're fine. Muninn is awesome etc. Also poasting in n:th page. In the HIC's we arent that bad ,but man if you have a capital alt and you trained it to be minmatar exclusively ,how in the hell do you know they are fine?do you compare it with other nags and say :" mine is more vertical than yours". Munnin is fine? Capitals are fine? etc are fine?(wtf is the etc) In a word get me what you are smoking that is wonderful stuff.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2009.01.02 14:08:00 - [279] Originally by: ZoXXX [Vagabond] 3 X Gyrostabilizer II 5 X 425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 403 DPS First, thanks to EFT. We have seen that Minmatar lacks in defence. Where is that "firepower"? Given that is only turret dps I cant see where the problem is. Your numbers clearly show it'll outdamage zealot and cerberus with drones deployed, there is your firepower. Being second to the deimos in pure gank isnt a shame as it has other benefits.
jaws104	Posted - 2009.01.03 16:49:00 - [280] Originally by: Vibora BR Really buff Minmatar. Having big Falloff and small optimal makes you losing a lot of DPS when you goes out the optimal. Why the hell is there no tracking enhancer/computer that effects falloff?? only optimal. That needs to be added. 1.5k optimal to 1.7, woopty f*kin doo - at least make a mod/script to increase falloff

Sprobe Jagdkommando RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.03 19:12:00 - [281] being minmatar from day 1 I thought eve is the hardest game I have ever played. then I discovered caldari and gallente - amarr is coming up next. the patch made it even harder - sub par in comparison to other races. I think we all agree that out of all 4 races, minmatar need to get some love. why? amarr have been corrected / boosted. now it's obvious that minmatar is far behind the other 3 races. minmatar needs to be corrected / boosted, same as amarr has been. I am no game designer, I don't know what the solution could be. Seems to be a tough one. never to old to play
Argilac Blackthorne	Posted - 2009.01.03 19:19:00 - [282] This thread is about projectile weapon systems, Amarr having more cap stabaility than Minmatar even though our weapons do not use cap and theirs do, the fact that our carrier, our dread, our speed, our sniper BS, our HACs, and many of out other ships are quite simply terrible compared to the other races. Yes, the Broadsword is a decent hictor, but don't lose sight of ALL THE OTHER PROBLEMS, especially our Carrier and Dreadnaught which are "end game" ships.
SiJira	Posted - 2009.01.03 19:19:00 - [283] please boost minmatar because amarr are overpowered Trashed sig, Shark was here
Vibora BR	Posted - 2009.01.04 03:43:00 - [284] Forgot one thing. The T2 ammo penalties are ridiculous. You can't hit a fast frigate at 50km with a small artie using tremor ammo. So we need sticking on T1 ammo. No range for Minmatar.
Lady Karma	Posted - 2009.01.04 04:50:00 - [285] Originally by: Vibora BR Forgot one thing. The T2 ammo penalties are ridiculous. You can't hit a fast frigate at 50km with a small artie using tremor ammo. So we need sticking on T1 ammo. No range for Minmatar. This is true for most T2 ammo, not just minie. If Tremor got back its punch, then I dont think you would see many minmatar pilots complaining. These days in munin you need to use faction carb lead, you can get away with tremor in tempest in fleets, coz you shooting big targets, but the damage still sucks. Give us back the alpha please with T2 ammo, and leave the ships as they are
Veebora Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.10 03:41:00 - [286] When will Minmatar be fixed?
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.01.10 03:51:00 - [287] Originally by: Cyrus Brown Don't forget the Vargur is terrible. Many of the Minmatar ships are the worst in the game, and need to be fixed. PS - Vagabond is actually still good, but Muninn is pathetic. I tried Vargur several times, as well as Kronos. One thing for certain: the web bonus is very powerful. So Vargur without web bonus is kinda sucky compared to Kronos. The small grid of Vargur is always a pain - again Kronos is better. Basically, if someone is to choose between Vargur and Kronos, Kronos will nearly always be the better, smarter choice. The shield tank power of Vargur is not that impressive to justify the other poor stats. Maybe if Vargur needs some kind of edge. Muninn is just as pathetic as Eagle - so it's only fair As I see it, Minmatar used to have 2 main edges: alpha strike and speed. Both were gradually nerfed with various patches. The no-cap usage of guns has always been a rather small advantage, and now it seems to be even less important, with the Nos nerfs and all. CCP likes to cut the edges off, keep things smooth and plain for the average joe
Unholy Preacher Trade Consortium	Posted - 2009.01.10 04:01:00 - [288] Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: Cyrus Brown Don't forget the Vargur is terrible. Many of the Minmatar ships are the worst in the game, and need to be fixed. PS - Vagabond is actually still good, but Muninn is pathetic. I tried Vargur several times, as well as Kronos. One thing for certain: the web bonus is very powerful. So Vargur without web bonus is kinda sucky compared to Kronos. The small grid of Vargur is always a pain - again Kronos is better. Basically, if someone is to choose between Vargur and Kronos, Kronos will nearly always be the better, smarter choice. The shield tank power of Vargur is not that impressive to justify the other poor stats. Maybe if Vargur needs some kind of edge. Muninn is just as pathetic as Eagle - so it's only fair As I see it, Minmatar used to have 2 main edges: alpha strike and speed. Both were gradually nerfed with various patches. The no-cap usage of guns has always been a rather small advantage, and now it seems to be even less important, with the Nos nerfs and all. CCP likes to cut the edges off, keep things smooth and plain for the average joe I think ephemeron has hit it right on the head, the great edges minmatar used to have are all but muted. The big alphas are what enticed me to train minimatar but alas im finding im getting more big alphas with my mega than my tempest.
NightmareX Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2009.01.10 04:05:00 - [289] Originally by: Veebora When will noobs without any single clue on how to use Minmatar be fixed? Fix'd. It's not Minmatar that need to be fixed. If there is something that need to be fixed, it's the Artilleries, and maybe adding a bit more falloff to the Autocannons. That's all we need. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
Sekket Caldari Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.01.10 05:41:00 - [290] Happy New Year!

isdisco3 Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:14:00 - [291] requiar devs to fix this! don't make me regret training minnie caps!
Elena Morin'staal Minmatar Tau Online Explorator Corp	Posted - 2009.01.14 15:35:00 - [292] Someone mentioned the other day about artillery - double damage, double rate of fire. So the damage for the alpha strike goes way up, but it fires less often, making it a proper alpha strike weapon. Whats the downside to this, out of curiosity?
Cyrus Brown	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:07:00 - [293] Still not a word from CCP on balancing Minmatar. It is truely disappointing.
Kornel Minmatar Alfa Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:40:00 - [294] As I remember, in Minmatar descriptions there one thing mentioned - they prefer guns and firepower over anything else. Were is it? There is no reason for play minmatar at all atm. They are mostly useless. Just one good thing happen - Vargur.


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