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Fix minmatar

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ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.25 15:54:00 - [1] After observing cladari whine about how op every other ship is and then posting so many threads thast ccp caved and nerfed minmatar i figured that in the same spirit minmatar couldget a nice boost....or 10. Reasons minmatar suck 1)Capitals are by far the worst 2)Hacs are crap 3)2 of the bses are crap/subpar 4)split weapons suck 5)Recons are sub-par 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless (why spend 200mil on a polyvaga when youl get popped by a drake 0_o) If you support this buff post then post your own and if we build up enough then ccp will have to change it!
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.25 16:00:00 - [2] Edited by: MotherMoon on 25/12/2008 16:01:30 Recons could use some work, but with the lower speeds, the increased web range is pretty sweet. Painters need a role, boost painters! with the missle nerf a drake can't even touch an untackled vaga, what the hell are you talking about. I swear one week we get "vagas are still over powered CCP didn't nerf speed enough" the next week "Vagas suck! missiles are overpowered!" Yes minmatar capitals suck
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.25 16:03:00 - [3] Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 25/12/2008 16:01:30 Recons could use some work, but with the lower speeds, the increased web range is pretty sweet. Painters need a role, boost painters! with the missle nerf a drake can't even touch an untackled vaga, what the hell are you talking about. I swear one week we get "vagas are still over powered CCP didn't nerf speed enough" the next week "Vagas suck! missiles are overpowered!" Yes minmatar capitals suck ok maybe the drake cant kill a vaga but regardless its still sub-par compared to other hacs since you cant fit a tank on it anymore
Cyrus Brown	Posted - 2008.12.25 16:13:00 - [4] Don't forget the Vargur is terrible. Many of the Minmatar ships are the worst in the game, and need to be fixed. PS - Vagabond is actually still good, but Muninn is pathetic.
Jesslyn Daggererux Gallente SRIUS BISNIS	Posted - 2008.12.25 16:17:00 - [5] Edited by: Jesslyn Daggererux on 25/12/2008 16:17:00 Originally by: ebonyivory After observing cladari whine about how op every other ship is and then posting so many threads thast ccp caved and nerfed minmatar i figured that in the same spirit minmatar couldget a nice boost....or 10. Reasons minmatar suck 1)Capitals are by far the worst 2)Hacs are crap 3)2 of the bses are crap/subpar 4)split weapons suck 5)Recons are sub-par 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless (why spend 200mil on a polyvaga when youl get popped by a drake 0_o)[/b] If you support this buff post then post your own and if we build up enough then ccp will have to change it! if your vaga dies to a drake your doing it wrong. and speed tanking is not dead. the actual speed has reduced, but due to missile changes speed tanking from what ive seen is better than ever. you just have to not use a MWD. ill explain. sorry that you havent noticed in your infinite wisdom, but there actually is a penalty to using a mwd that includes a big sig radius. now i know you want to curl up into the corner, rocking and crying because using a mwd may not be the best idea for a hac anymore, but its true. i have used my hac every day since QR and i find the AB, at least in high sec, is the better choice. and im only using an ishtar. you can get almost twice as fast as me in a vaga. the one thing the ishtar does have over the vaga though is an amazing kinetic resist, the one resist caldari just love. but oh well, if you cant figure out why the vaga doesnt suck just fly a rupture and be glad you still have the best cruiser.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.25 16:29:00 - [6] Originally by: ebonyivory Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 25/12/2008 16:01:30 Recons could use some work, but with the lower speeds, the increased web range is pretty sweet. Painters need a role, boost painters! with the missle nerf a drake can't even touch an untackled vaga, what the hell are you talking about. I swear one week we get "vagas are still over powered CCP didn't nerf speed enough" the next week "Vagas suck! missiles are overpowered!" Yes minmatar capitals suck ok maybe the drake cant kill a vaga but regardless its still sub-par compared to other hacs since you cant fit a tank on it anymore I don't know I still think the vaga is pretty good. But yeah don't wrry some day it will be minmatar online, I mean it used to be gallente online, then caldari online, and now it's ammar online! it'll come :P
Onewingedangel Minmatar MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.12.25 16:48:00 - [7] Pls, forums can be used for more than whining. First, vaga is still viable. It's just not broken anymore, so people are whining that it is no longer "killproof." Minmatar capitols do not suck, the Nid is the best support carrier in the game, and what are carriers there for? Support. The remote repping bonus is a huge advantage in combat and the subpar capitol tank doesn't mean ** if you aren't the primary. Secondly, a lack of a damage bonus is no real issue as many pilots assign fighters anyway, thus negating any damage bonus. The Naglfar is just plain cool. OMG a REV can out tank and out dps it, who cares. I'd take a Naglfar any day of the week over a rev in a small to moderate sized fleet engagement. They typhoon is awesome, 2 neut 2 nos 4 cruise + tackle/cap injector in mids + crazy armor tank in lows owns, with good skills you will be able to solo a Dominix, although it will be a close fight. Also, the typhoon is wonderfully versatile. Just because it can't go 10billion k/sec anymore doesn't mean it sucks. The tempest is flipping awesome. It's guns don't use cap, which means in a plated setup you have FIVE MID SLOTS to do whatever you want with. The tempest is a big hurricane. The maelstrom is awesome, and a big cyclone. Hell, the maelstrom I think is the worst minmatar ship there is, and I say that because it does not fly like a minmatar ship. It feels quite Amarr [slow as **] and it does nothing but tank and damage, like Amarr. Split weapons do not suck, hurricane for instance you can put a full rack of arties then 2 assault missile launchers+drones to handle tacklers. You can do the same on the tempest if you so desire. Split weapons offer versatility. Which is the advantage you have when flying minmatar. No other race matches minmatar versatility. That in itself is a great strength. The recons are not sub par, the Rapier with 1 web and a point fitted can fit a very hard shield tank. Or alternatively an armor tank is viable. Also, if you spent 200mil on a polyvaga and get popped by a drake it is the result of your poor piloting. Regardless of whether or not you actually kill the drake, it should not be able to kill you. You are faster, which means that if things start going south you can just leave. Which makes me think, that because you can't solo anything you want you resort to complaining. Please, actually fly these ships before complaining about them. So they don't crank out the highest dps and craziest tanks, fly Amarr if you want that. Every race has a different role.
Halock Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.25 17:19:00 - [8] i think the problem with minmatar comes from them not having too great an eft showing, that being said, autocannon mechanics with falloff etc does suck.
Schwinger	Posted - 2008.12.25 17:37:00 - [9] Originally by: Onewingedangel No other race matches minmatar versatility. That in itself is a great strength. Oh puh-lease. Being able to do ****loads of nothing is not a great strenght.
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.25 17:43:00 - [10] Originally by: Onewingedangel stuff ok heres where your wrong 1)sure you can still fly a vaga but its not half as good as any of the other hacs as it lacks a decent tank and the dps is still pretty meh. 2)Tank is everything in a fleet fight. Nids get called primary because they have the weakest tank so they dont hav e the chance to use any of that "support". 3)the nag being "cool" doesnt make upfor the fact that it can do more damage with unbonused lazers than it can with acs/artillery. Surely beingouttanked and outdpsesd by another ship generally showsthat aformentioned ship sucks. 4)Artillery sucks...it used to be good when ship hp was lower but now its lacks therof to be as effective as the other bses. 5)Large acs suck. 6)split weapins suck badly (see naglfar) asyou cannot fit both damage bonus mods (bcus/gyros) without crippling your tank. 7)versitality is useless when everything outtanks/outdpses u 8)2 extra missile launchersdoesnt make it versitile. Hell you can fit 2 turrets on a raven if u rly wana but that doesnt make the raven versitile. 9)you have obviousely never flown minmatar as you NEVER fit artillery on a cane 10)ok lets look at the recons. Falcon=super jam all it sees from 200km away. Curse can neut and tank while ripping enemies apart with drones. ARazu can damp and slowly eat away with drones. Huggin/rapier can fit a usless speed tank and gettin popped by anything with good gun skills. 11)sure you can flit around at 3km a sec...until a bs neuts u and a bc can pop u. The thing is the vaga was easy to kill before the nerf if u knew what u were doing but now its just lolish. Why spend the200mil when u can get better dps/tank from a cane or a zealot/sac

An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.25 17:48:00 - [11] Here's where you're wrong: Everything I fly is clearly underpowered and everything you fly is clearly overpowered. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Schwinger	Posted - 2008.12.25 18:00:00 - [12] Here's where you're wrong: Originally by: An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm Speaking on my behalf, I do not fly minmatar.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.25 18:17:00 - [13] Yet you think you can reliably speak about ships you don't fly? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Commander Yassir The Seven Sins	Posted - 2008.12.25 18:28:00 - [14] Edited by: Commander Yassir on 25/12/2008 18:28:18 Scuse me I thought it was caldari's turn to whine insert remark about missiles not being awsesome anymore /off sarcasm P.S.-You say one thing about Falcons I will hunt you down and gut you like a fish (In game) Edit: I spell goodly ~ The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone to blame it on.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Ninjas N Pirates	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:06:00 - [15] I fly Minmatar almost exclusively, best ships in the game when you have the skills
Onewingedangel Minmatar MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:11:00 - [16] Edited by: Onewingedangel on 25/12/2008 19:15:57 Edited by: Onewingedangel on 25/12/2008 19:13:52 Edited by: Onewingedangel on 25/12/2008 19:11:46 Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny I fly Minmatar almost exclusively, best ships in the game when you have the skills Key statement, Minmatar always have been and always will be eve on "hard mode." They require the most SP and the most piloting skill to be viable in combat. I would argue that to be effective as a minmatar pilot requires +- 3x as many SP as caldari. ie, 5mil to 15mil i think is a decent comparison. Seriously, I have been flying minmatar for years. Stop whining and learn how to fly. Whenever a race doesn't have the best ship in a certain class they think they are entitled to it.
Alexander Sinclair	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:16:00 - [17] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny I fly Minmatar almost exclusively, best ships in the game when you have the skills I have a pet peeve with the if you have skill argument, because most of the time that means pick fights that the enemy can't even contest, and well I for one would like to do well in a pitched battle. :P
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:18:00 - [18] Originally by: Onewingedangel Edited by: Onewingedangel on 25/12/2008 19:15:57 Edited by: Onewingedangel on 25/12/2008 19:13:52 Edited by: Onewingedangel on 25/12/2008 19:11:46 Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny I fly Minmatar almost exclusively, best ships in the game when you have the skills Key statement, Minmatar always have been and always will be eve on "hard mode." They require the most SP and the most piloting skill to be viable in combat. I would argue that to be effective as a minmatar pilot requires +- 3x as many SP as caldari. ie, 5mil to 15mil i think is a decent comparison. Seriously, I have been flying minmatar for years. Stop whining and learn how to fly. Whenever a race doesn't have the best ship in a certain class they think they are entitled to it. why should a race have to spend 3 times as long training to be as effective as other races? Im not disputing that minmatar have some good ships...however the good to crap ratio compared to other races is borked (literally maybe 5 good ships max)
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:26:00 - [19] Originally by: ebonyivory why should a race have to spend 3 times as long training to be as effective as other races? yeah! boost ammar!
Alexander Sinclair	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:29:00 - [20] Edited by: Alexander Sinclair on 25/12/2008 19:30:21 Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: ebonyivory why should a race have to spend 3 times as long training to be as effective as other races? yeah! boost ammar! Ammarians should have longer train times, they rely on slaves to do to much of there work for them... j/king sorta...

MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:35:00 - [21] Originally by: Alexander Sinclair Edited by: Alexander Sinclair on 25/12/2008 19:30:21 Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: ebonyivory why should a race have to spend 3 times as long training to be as effective as other races? yeah! boost ammar! Ammarians should have longer train times, they rely on slaves to do to much of there work for them... j/king sorta... oh you must be new around here, ammar are the hardest race to skill for and CCP ignore them, they are totally the weakest race in eve. it's like the devs hate ammar.
Alexander Sinclair	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:38:00 - [22] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Alexander Sinclair Edited by: Alexander Sinclair on 25/12/2008 19:30:21 Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: ebonyivory why should a race have to spend 3 times as long training to be as effective as other races? yeah! boost ammar! Ammarians should have longer train times, they rely on slaves to do to much of there work for them... j/king sorta... oh you must be new around here, ammar are the hardest race to skill for and CCP ignore them, they are totally the weakest race in eve. it's like the devs hate ammar. My post was mostly in jest and facetiousness, I have a account made in 2003 but you are right I hardly played it.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:39:00 - [23] Originally by: Alexander Sinclair My post was mostly in jest and facetiousness, I have a account made in 2003 but you are right I hardly played it. don't worry mine was too, just echoing the past.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:46:00 - [24] I love the sp vs race ratio comparisons. Took me some 20mil+ sp as Amarr before I felt useful. At least 6mil+ in gunnery, maybe I "wasted" a mil or so getting Ogre II's but you had to rely on drones for so long during the nos-age.. it was pretty crucial to have on the Geddon etc. Having trained up all four races more or less dedicated, on four accounts, it's pretty much this way; Caldari and Gallente get useful from day one. In PvP as well as PvE. Minmatar, if you stay with the Rifter and get all t2'ed up, is fine really early too. You can somehwat argue that Amarr can do that with the Punisher. If we look past frigs, and assume you go for battleships, since they're the bread and butter for both PvP as well as ratting/missioning.. then the guy that said "x3" amounts of sp to be useful as Minmatar is somewhat reaching it. I'd go as far as saying as Amarr and Minmatar need x4-x5 times the amount of sp in comparison to Caldari and Gallente, to be useful to a similar extent. Then at the end of the day, the reward comes when you are well skilled as Amarr. Same goes for Minmatar btw. Oh, and this whole read needs to revive the old meme, lol, Amarr
Schwinger	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:46:00 - [25] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Yet you think you can reliably speak about ships you don't fly? Yes I do. My pure minmatar char is being 'rested' until further notice. Yes, they've got decent ships, but when every ship class can be outclassed by a gallente one, I don't even bother.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.25 19:54:00 - [26] Originally by: Schwinger Originally by: An Anarchyyt Yet you think you can reliably speak about ships you don't fly? Yes I do. OH OH, Well excuuuuse me princess.
yourdoingitwrong	Posted - 2008.12.25 20:14:00 - [27] Originally by: Onewingedangel I'd take a Naglfar any day of the week over a rev in a small to moderate sized fleet engagement. i stopped reading right here
Kurt Ambrose Caldari Point Blank.	Posted - 2008.12.25 20:20:00 - [28] Edited by: Kurt Ambrose on 25/12/2008 20:21:54 Originally by: ebonyivory 2)Hacs are crap 5)Recons are sub-par 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless (why spend 200mil on a polyvaga when youl get popped by a drake 0_o) 1) Vagabond is awesome 2) Rapier and Huginn are still nice 3) You dont need speed rigs to get a decent speed out of the vaga
ebonyivory	Posted - 2008.12.25 20:38:00 - [29] Originally by: Kurt Ambrose Edited by: Kurt Ambrose on 25/12/2008 20:21:54 Originally by: ebonyivory 2)Hacs are crap 5)Recons are sub-par 6)speed tanking is now effectively useless (why spend 200mil on a polyvaga when youl get popped by a drake 0_o) 1) Vagabond is awesome 2) Rapier and Huginn are still nice 3) You dont need speed rigs to get a decent speed out of the vaga 1)paper tank 2)paper tank 3)paper tank ccp effectively nerfed their only realistic form of tanking (you cant armour tank a vaga or shield tank for that matter) sure they can zoom around at lululudicrous speeds but theyl get instapopped by just about anything
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.12.25 20:53:00 - [30] Originally by: ebonyivory ...sure they can zoom around at lululudicrous speeds but theyl get instapopped by just about anything... As opposed to pre "speed tanking boost" patch were they tanked godly, yes? Vagas speed tanked before patch, they still speed tank. Their tank has always been a buffer cushion-tank, tanked to the amount you thought you needed to get out, from when you started to take damage. The only difference is these days you actually need that cushion tank once in awhile, cause you get hit now ( for pathetic damage ) while zooooming around. The fact that the Vaga goes down like a sack of bricks once caught hasn't changed.



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