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baltec1 R.U.S.T. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.09 14:39:00 - [31] Originally by: Warrio Edited by: Warrio on 09/01/2009 13:49:26 I demand that SB become what their name implies. Give them torps, give them crazy long range and huge damage but give the a role "bonus" that nerfs the explosion velocity of their torps making them highly effective cap killers in groups but still paper thin and poor at hurting anything with a sig less than 600m and moving faster than 100m/s. This is basicly a huge nerf so no thanks.
Connner Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.09 16:59:00 - [32] I used to be an SB pilot....now, not so much. I used to vehemently disagree with Merin, now not so much. I used to be able to kill BS rats w/ my SB, now I can't because of the missile nerf. Maybe they'll be good again someday, perhaps if they made bombs actually usefull, or unnerfed missiles.
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.01.09 17:08:00 - [33] Originally by: Connner I used to be an SB pilot....now, not so much. I used to vehemently disagree with Merin, now not so much. I used to be able to kill BS rats w/ my SB, now I can't because of the missile nerf. Maybe they'll be good again someday, perhaps if they made bombs actually usefull, or unnerfed missiles. Ditto...can't believe I actually agree with Merin on Stealth Bombers...
Sera Ryskin	Posted - 2009.01.09 18:34:00 - [34] Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 09/01/2009 18:34:54 Originally by: lecrotta Ok then, i wanna instantly lock after uncloaking and also move faster when i am cloaked than when i am not..... There is no scenario in which you want to decloak and immediately lock without a covops cloak, so this ability is irrelevant, and moving faster while cloaked is only useful for escaping bubble camps. ========== Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
Imaos	Posted - 2009.01.09 19:43:00 - [35] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Imaos Why it can't be done with other infinitly better ships? There aren't infinitly better ships. Especially your favourite cloak raven can't do it. While you can warp in (with a covops warp-in), lock, fire and warp out with a SB (unless there is a bubble up or other disruptor field) other ships either don't lock fast enough, don't have enough alpha or aren't fast enough back in warp to work with guerilla tactics and are much easier hold in place so you wont ever come back with near the same strength in the second or further passes. Hi. I'm a Cerberus (without a cloak). I do more dps from longer range with more tank, making a stealth bomber completely redundant. And that's just with missiles, if you're willing to use the gunboat snipers it gets even more one-sided. BTW: that whole idea of hit and run missile sniping without tacklers is just stupid anyway, as any pilot who's even halfway awake will just warp out before he dies. That's assuming you're planning on warping out immediately, instead of waiting for your missiles to hit (since you claim the bomber has an advantage in warp-out time), which means you'll be doing zero damage. How the hell did the idea of using the stealth bomber like a cerberus? That is sooo obvious that it don't work it needs no mention. For hit and run you either need guns or be close with missiles. That's why I mentioned the cov-ops warp-in. And if you manage to coordinate your bomber squadron there is no time to warp out. Oh. Btw the hit and run idea with tackler is as dumb in this setup as it most likely dies from a stray hit while he stays alone on the field or is ECMed down by multiple falcons anyway. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
Imaos	Posted - 2009.01.09 19:49:00 - [36] Originally by: Sera Ryskin Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 09/01/2009 18:34:54 Originally by: lecrotta Ok then, i wanna instantly lock after uncloaking and also move faster when i am cloaked than when i am not..... There is no scenario in which you want to decloak and immediately lock without a covops cloak, so this ability is irrelevant, and moving faster while cloaked is only useful for escaping bubble camps. Laying an ambush maybe? Imaos PS: Why not posting as Merin? ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
Dawts Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2009.01.09 20:14:00 - [37] Cov ops cloak.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.09 20:19:00 - [38] Edited by: lecrotta on 09/01/2009 20:20:28 Originally by: Sera Ryskin Originally by: lecrotta Ok then, i wanna instantly lock after uncloaking and also move faster when i am cloaked than when i am not..... There is no scenario in which you want to decloak and immediately lock without a covops cloak, Oh i dunno, damping and shooting falcons before they can lock and jam you back is a rather handy ability. Originally by: Sera Ryskin and moving faster while cloaked is only useful for escaping bubble camps. Approaching the afore mentioned falcons.....
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.01.09 23:43:00 - [39] Originally by: Dawts Cov ops cloak. Before QR I would say: "If you can't figure out how to fly it then you don't deserve the ability to warp cloaked." After QR...meh even this wouldn't help it out much.
Noisrevbus Caldari Breams Gone Wild	Posted - 2009.01.10 00:27:00 - [40] Bombers will not be 'complete' until bombs are brought down to reasonable material costs for ammunition (and possibly integrated to fit in that last free high slot, rather than compromosing on one of the Cruise launcher slots). Even with that said though, Bombers today are on a make do basis. Without really shining it can fill a combination of roles somewhat. That at least make them alright to dust off from time to time and fly (if you like the idea behind them, as i do). Then a number of suggestions already made can most likely make them a bit better, and in particular, more popular to fly. Covops cloaks would make both bombers and black-ops more appealing. Adressing different parts of the already existing bonuses could also be interesting (letting it be even faster while cloaked, like running ABs and MWDs under cloak, but not being allowed to jump) and improving it's missile 'precision' bonuses further (especially if they have gone bad with the missile changes in QR) are some pretty good solid ideas. Bombs however are the unique function of a Bomber, and it's a shame to see that so much time have gone by since their implementation; and they are yet not made reasonable or feasible to use properly. It isn't rocket science, lower their material cost substantially will let bombers have bombs as a secondary offensive ace up the sleave and they will become more popular. Cost is the reason people don't use them. The same can once again be said for the Black Ops, where fuel cost is just too bleeding high (not to mention the ship cost). The concept is ace, but upkeep sucks.
Wannabehero Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2009.01.10 02:40:00 - [41] In all honesty, If changes were made to improve the utility and function of bombers so they could effectively deploy bombs on enemy fleets, then all would be good in the universe. Gonna go and plagiarize myself now from this thread A list of improvements that I would like to see to give bombers the role of anti-fleet area-denial ships. Reduction of reactivation delay on bomb launcher from 160 seconds to 80 seconds (60 seconds with bomb deployment to V). Reduction of cargo volume of bombs to 1/3 current (current volume = 75m^3, should be 25m^3) Double the bomb flight speed (from 1,250 m/s to 2,500 m/s) Reduce bomb flight time to 10 seconds (currently 15) Change the Covert speed bonus from 125% per level to 175% per level (making them actually kinda speedy while cloaked) or remove this bonus entirely and allow them to fit covert-ops cloaks Increase the effect of lockbreaker bombs to a strength of 16 (currently jam strength 12.5) Increase bomb hitpoints by 40 so they can be used in waves of 6 - 7 rather than 5 Reduce the signature radius of bombs from 400m to 250m This is just my wishlist. In addition, one addition bomb per production run would be super. -- Don't harsh my mellow
0niwaka	Posted - 2009.01.10 03:47:00 - [42] Edited by: 0niwaka on 10/01/2009 03:47:30 Will be finish training in a week. Concerning fast moving frigs, I've been wondering how much does Target Navigation Prediction V helps in this aspect. Notice any major improvement than untrained?
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.10 06:52:00 - [43] Originally by: 0niwaka Edited by: 0niwaka on 10/01/2009 03:47:30 Will be finish training in a week. Concerning fast moving frigs, I've been wondering how much does Target Navigation Prediction V helps in this aspect. Notice any major improvement than untrained? It surely helps, but with your ridiculous low RoF, hitting for e.g. 35 dmg instead of 30 per missile is not good enough. And I've seen such dmg vs. fast CRUISERS...ceptors are practically immune to SBs, and most T1 frigates can mitigate a huge percentage of dmg once up to cruise speeds. I find SBs fun enough to mess around with, and I have numerous kills with it - usually I enjoy harassing enemy bubble camps with small ships, usually going for dictors, other SBs and T1 stuff when they are preoccupied with someone else or seem to have left their guard down. The Anti-Cap Torp suggestion/fix is great...I wish I could bring down posses with 10x SBs in a few minutes Otherwise wtf?
Sera Ryskin	Posted - 2009.01.10 07:48:00 - [44] Originally by: Imaos How the hell did the idea of using the stealth bomber like a cerberus? That is sooo obvious that it don't work it needs no mention. Because that's the only way to use a bomber, unless you just like giving away easy killmails. If you get in close, you die, period. Quote: For hit and run you either need guns or be close with missiles. That's why I mentioned the cov-ops warp-in. And if you manage to coordinate your bomber squadron there is no time to warp out. And even if you somehow manage to avoid losing your ships, it's only going to work once. Congratulations, you just wasted a substantial number of pilots to accomplish far less than if they'd played hit and run games with something that doesn't suck (or just brought in a traditional fleet). Quote: Oh. Btw the hit and run idea with tackler is as dumb in this setup as it most likely dies from a stray hit while he stays alone on the field or is ECMed down by multiple falcons anyway. And how are you planning to keep your targets from just laughing at you and warping off? Originally by: Imaos Laying an ambush maybe? Done better by ships that don't suck (for example, recon tacklers with non-cloaking ships for firepower), if you really have to camp a single spot hoping something shows up to kill. Originally by: lecrotta Oh i dunno, damping and shooting falcons before they can lock and jam you back is a rather handy ability. Hi. I'm a Cerberus. I have 250km missile range, and don't need to screw around with a worthless cloak to kill/drive off a Falcon. Quote: Approaching the afore mentioned falcons..... And how exactly does a cloak help? You have long enough missile range to open fire right away, and since you warped in un-cloaked, the Falcon is just going to align to his next bookmark (or align out) and thank his enemies for not bringing a ship that's actually a threat.
Max Hardcase Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2009.01.10 09:04:00 - [45] Originally by: Wannabehero In all honesty, If changes were made to improve the utility and function of bombers so they could effectively deploy bombs on enemy fleets, then all would be good in the universe. Gonna go and plagiarize myself now from this thread A list of improvements that I would like to see to give bombers the role of anti-fleet area-denial ships. Reduction of reactivation delay on bomb launcher from 160 seconds to 80 seconds (60 seconds with bomb deployment to V). Reduction of cargo volume of bombs to 1/3 current (current volume = 75m^3, should be 25m^3) Double the bomb flight speed (from 1,250 m/s to 2,500 m/s) Reduce bomb flight time to 10 seconds (currently 15) Change the Covert speed bonus from 125% per level to 175% per level (making them actually kinda speedy while cloaked) or remove this bonus entirely and allow them to fit covert-ops cloaks Increase the effect of lockbreaker bombs to a strength of 16 (currently jam strength 12.5) Increase bomb hitpoints by 40 so they can be used in waves of 6 - 7 rather than 5 Reduce the signature radius of bombs from 400m to 250m This is just my wishlist. In addition, one addition bomb per production run would be super. -Add a 4th missile slot. That way we can choose to use 4x cruise or 3x cruise + bomb launcher. -Increase resistances of all dmg types on bombs to 99.5%, atleast we dont have too coordinate bombers then.
baltec1 R.U.S.T. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.10 13:29:00 - [46] Originally by: Sera Ryskin Originally by: Imaos How the hell did the idea of using the stealth bomber like a cerberus? That is sooo obvious that it don't work it needs no mention. Because that's the only way to use a bomber, unless you just like giving away easy killmails. If you get in close, you die, period. Your doing it wrong then. I like to engage at below 40 km to use the cloak at maximum effect. Originally by: lecrotta Oh i dunno, damping and shooting falcons before they can lock and jam you back is a rather handy ability. Hi. I'm a Cerberus. I have 250km missile range, and don't need to screw around with a worthless cloak to kill/drive off a Falcon. Hi I am a bomber, a ship the falcon will never manage to lock let alone jam. Quote: Approaching the afore mentioned falcons..... And how exactly does a cloak help? You have long enough missile range to open fire right away, and since you warped in un-cloaked, the Falcon is just going to align to his next bookmark (or align out) and thank his enemies for not bringing a ship that's actually a threat. To get within 40km and use a very good trick with the cloak and missiles to make myself a near impossible to counter target.
Altris	Posted - 2009.01.10 16:32:00 - [47] Edited by: Altris on 10/01/2009 16:32:40 I'm certainly no experienced pilot. So maybe someone can explain something to me: Originally by: Sera Ryskin Hi. I'm a Cerberus. In the region I'm in, a Purifier costs <9M. A Cerberus costs ~90M. Isn't that a factor? Not to mention that I, with my 7M skill points, can fly a Purifier and do some little damage with it. But it'll take me a long time before I can hop into a Cerberus. It sounds a lot like apples and oranges. So then I wonder, even given that the Cerberus is much better than a SB in all the ways you list, I still don't get why you are comparing these two ships at all. Unless these forums (and the game) is populated mostly with people who can fly all the ships and think nothing of 80M ISK (not including fittings).
Vincent Gaines Avis de Captura	Posted - 2009.01.10 17:37:00 - [48] In every aspect of my game knowledge, a bomber in a space sim was a capship's nightmare. Squads or even lone bombers could unload a wave of bombs that normal fighters wouldn't carry. As such in eve, blob disrupting and anti cap/supercap should be a SB's focus. The cloaking aspect allows it to close in before making a bombing run. Unfortunately, bombs do not have that level of effectiveness. That is the only issue. There's no need for a covops cloak. Just fix bombs. If bombs and missiles were boosted along with a covops cloak the SB would be too powerful.
Ginko Joukai	Posted - 2009.01.10 18:26:00 - [49] Stealth Bomber today: All relevant primary and support missile skills to 5, using Caldary Navy cruise missile. Target: Amarr cruiser Omen. No modules fitted. NO PILOT IN THE SHIP (abandoned cruiser in space). Omen is not moving. Fire racial bonused missile salvo. 3 cruise missiles streak to this weak target. Damage inflicted: shields down to 92%. Omen with shields down to 92%... lob a BOMB (racial bonus)at it. Omen shields down to 75%. Oh.. yes, there is nothing wrong with bombers. It cant kill an unpiloted T1 cruiser even with maxed out skills using the best missiles and bombs. CCP has no clue what they're doing when they patch things that so much they have proven over and over and over again. As long as they keep catering to the blobs of cap and BS pilots from the major alliances the rest of us will keep getting jacked in the arse.
Jevexus	Posted - 2009.01.10 19:37:00 - [50] Originally by: Ginko Joukai Stealth Bomber today: All relevant primary and support missile skills to 5, using Caldary Navy cruise missile. Target: Amarr cruiser Omen. No modules fitted. NO PILOT IN THE SHIP (abandoned cruiser in space). Omen is not moving. Fire racial bonused missile salvo. 3 cruise missiles streak to this weak target. Damage inflicted: shields down to 92%. Omen with shields down to 92%... lob a BOMB (racial bonus)at it. Omen shields down to 75%. Sadly, i believe the cruise missile part. But i dont believe the bomb part at all.. Bombs do 8000 dmg (racial) it had to have hit harder than just 17% damage.. which is about 200 damage... no way..
Max Hardcase Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2009.01.10 20:10:00 - [51] Could be, he didnt list what bombs he launched. Figure 1/3 dmg only...400 radius vs ~125m omen. Then we get shield resists.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.01.10 20:14:00 - [52] Originally by: Max Hardcase Could be, he didnt list what bombs he launched. Figure 1/3 dmg only...400 radius vs ~125m omen. Then we get shield resists. Tbh its the sig penalty that kills bombs effectiveness. You should be able to lob a few in to wipe out the support ships and leave the larger ships with moderate damage. The now unsupported ships are easy meat to a fully supported force and quickly fall.
Wannabehero Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2009.01.10 22:03:00 - [53] Edited by: Wannabehero on 10/01/2009 22:04:24 Originally by: Max Hardcase Originally by: Wannabehero (snip) Stealth Bomber improvements (/snip) -Add a 4th missile slot. That way we can choose to use 4x cruise or 3x cruise + bomb launcher. -Increase resistances of all dmg types on bombs to 99.5%, atleast we dont have too coordinate bombers then. 4th missile slot - Agreed 99.5% Omni resists - Indestructible bombs that cannot reasonably be shot down... not likely. Might be better to just hard-code bombs with a fixed resistance to bomb damage separate from on target damage systems, if such a thing is possible. -- Don't harsh my mellow
Major Deviant	Posted - 2009.01.11 17:26:00 - [54] The big problem post QR with SBs is explosion velocity. With my skills I get around 100m/sec which means that anything going faster than that gets a damage reduction. Trying to "adapt" I thought of trying to fix this specific weakness. Guess what, the only thing that gives bonus to explosion velocity is the flare rig and gives a whoping 15%. That means I can spend ~15mil to gain an explosion velocity of 115m/sec. Right. One mil/m. I have personally parked my bomber and I'll wait till March to see if CCP will decide to do something about it. If not, I will take Merin's advice and reprocess it and built an AF with the minerals. In the meantime I have fitted a cloak to a caracal and it is performing much better so far using the same tactics. I have overcome the longer locking time by fitting a passive targeter and you would be surprised how effective it is.
JVol Amarr The IMorral MAjority	Posted - 2009.01.11 18:39:00 - [55] Ive been following these bomber threads, and it seems to me people expect alot more from these paper tigers than they were made to deliver. I dont think they were really intended to be solo at all, in any role they have, they work FAR better in groups. If setup for crz, you almost have to have painters now, post QR you didnt. Add them to each of your wolfpac ships and you WILL pop intys and af's and annialate cruisers/hacs(even in pacs as small as 3). Bombs are cheap enough that you can afford to experiment with them now, 5-6m in jita. Again these work best in small to large groups, Ive had milti kills solo tho. IMO the biggest problem with bombs atm is hitting gates in 0.0 and getting a 1.5% sec loss, making testing difficult as most blobs happen near gates.. Other than that, I think a true ROF increas is needed, If i have the balls to launch and stay there for 2 more seconds to launch the SECOND bomb before warping or cloaking, I just beat HUGE odds to do it most likely. ( Launching on big fleets is dangerous cause they tend to have many fast lockers and bombs dont splode if you die before detionation, sooooo.. ) Aliging, uncloaking, launching and then warping out is diffcult to do depending on the fleet, so staying to launch the second wouldnt be overpowerd as much as a deathwish in most cases. It would allowgangs of 3-6 to really impact blobs imo.

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