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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.08 02:48:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Goumindong on 08/01/2009 02:50:00
Eve is a game that goes through many balancing changes for many different reasons. Recently there was a large change in the mechanics of speed. In order to balance out this change the agility of ships across the entire spectrum was increased significantly.
This change has had some unintended consequences. Not since the original implementation of signature radius and scan resolution has there been a such a shakeup in the ability of ships to target and force another ship into combat. The nature of the shakeup is that it is now much more difficult to force targets into combat because they enter warp much faster than they did previously. Especially if they are smaller than your ship.
This ability is at the heart of what makes Eve a PvP game. Without it low-sec and empire presence is unable to seriously hamper enemy movements. Empire and low-sec gate camps lose their strategic and tactical purpose. And belt production becomes even easier than it was before.
This can be shown by some numbers produced by James Lyrus relating to the new warp times against current lock times.
 Originally by: James Lyrus
Here, have some numbers as fuel for this discussion:
Crow - locks an Crow in 2s, warps in 1.8s
Kestrel - locks a kestrel in 3.3s, warps in 3s.
Thrasher - locks in 2.3s, warps in 3.5s.
Caracal - locks a in 4.7s, warps in 3.7s
Drake - locks in 4.1s warps in 7.5s (brutix is similar)
Raven - locks in 8.3s, warps in 10.5s
With the exception of battlecruisers, a ship is marginal on locking a mirror of itself before it can warp. When doing things like locking, especially if you're in pursuit of someone, 'loading lag' is what controls whether you can do this or not. I don't know about you, but I'd rather that wasn't the case.
The supporters of this issue are not asking for a massive change or revert of any particular change, but simply that one thing happens. That the ability to lock a target before it leaves the grid be restored to its previous values.
As i see it this can happen in one of two ways without impacting the recent speed or agility changes: Either, lock times can be reduced to correspond to the agility changes. Or the speed at which a ship is required to be traveling before entering warp can be increased such that general "in space" maneuverability is unchanged, but the time it takes to warp out is increased to previous levels. Changing lock times is imperfect because we're already hitting a ceiling in terms of agility on smaller ships where locking a target can become entirely dependent on latency. Changing warp speed requirements is imperfect because some ships did not have their agility increased. However, whatever is chosen, something ought to be done.
Thank you for taking the time to consider this as important enough to raise to the developers.
edit reason: Spelling
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FunzzeR
Counter Errorist Unit
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Posted - 2009.01.08 03:18:00 -
[2]
supported |
Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.01.08 03:58:00 -
[3]
as long as the times we are talking about are base stats with no mods.
I support this
----
People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Quote:
They already did introduce a counter to missiles, it's called Quantum Rise
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.01.08 06:25:00 -
[4]
Pre QR, you would be able to catch a cruiser in a cruiser, a BC in a BC and a BS in a BS. With the new QR agility changes, ships have been given almost 2 free inertial stabilizer modules. Now tanked ships can escape from ships of equal size.
What does this mean? This means I must being a HIC/inty or both to just be able to tackle a ship. In addition to the web and regional gate changes I must bring tackle for the other side of the gate as well. To properly camp a gate I am looking at almost 5 people just to CATCH someone. I am forced to blob under QR mechanics.
Old days didn't have tons of solo gate camps and tons of solo fights, but they were at least possible. One of the most boring parts is the on/off mechanics of EVE. In QRs EVE a gate camp is on/off in either you will get completely destroyed or lol warp off. |
Raimo
Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.01.08 06:34:00 -
[5]
Supported.
This is very much of a concern to active PVPers, especially in low- and hisec. |
Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
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Posted - 2009.01.08 07:48:00 -
[6]
Supported.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.08 09:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ignition SemperFi
as long as the times we are talking about are base stats with no mods.
I support this
The numbers are base stats with no mods. |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.01.08 09:49:00 -
[8]
something needs to be done here ... |
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.08 10:18:00 -
[9]
I support anything that repairs the damage caused by QR speed nerfing
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.08 10:50:00 -
[10]
Nice try bringing up caldari ships which align the fastest and lock the slowest :) |
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GuerrillA'lt
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Posted - 2009.01.08 11:55:00 -
[11]
Awesome Idea. smaller craft need a particularly large boost (say 25-30%). Even with max skills and a sensor booster, it's hard to most frigs/cruisers |
Naomi Knight
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.08 12:19:00 -
[12]
You should not be able to point frigs/destroyers before they can warp away. Or cruisers if they are fitted for align but you are not fitted with sensor boosters.
Current stats work fine. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.01.08 12:26:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Nice try bringing up caldari ships which align the fastest and lock the slowest :)
Okay
Sac pre QR (spaceship V, evasive V, no armor plates/rigs/speed mods):
aligns in 7.5s, locks in 3.9s
Post QR:
aligns in 5.2s, locks in 3.9s
Stabber pre QR (spaceship V, evasive V, no armor plates/rigs/speed mods):
aligns in 5.3s, locks in 4.2s
POS QR:
aligns in 3.7s, locks in 4.2s
Etc, etc, etc. You can see that you don't really need to nano a stabber, it aligns so quickly that it is like a frigate pre-QR (pre-QR rifter aligns in 3.3s, with 200m rt plate aligns in 3.7s)
Originally by: Naomi Knight
You should not be able to point frigs/destroyers before they can warp away. Or cruisers if they are fitted for align but you are not fitted with sensor boosters.
Current stats work fine.
Where does it state that you shouldn't be able to tackle frigates and destroyers? They should be IMMUNE to pvp? What kind of dumb logic is that. This is EVE, where non-consensual combat is part of the game. No reason that small ships should have blatant immunity (which they don't in 0.0 at least, in low sec no one really cares about frigs)
Lock time lag makes it so you simply cannot lock and disrupt fast moving ships. No one really cares about frigates running around low sec, but heavy ships like HACs and HICs and tanked cruisers flying around with near-immunity in low sec is just not right.
I feel this is a major oversight by CCP. Agility in terms of speeding up for MWD and such is fine. But no one tests gate mechanics on Sisi because everyone messes around in FD-, so it is easy to assume that CCP doesn't know about this terrible side effect of the agility boost. |
Molock Saronen
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Posted - 2009.01.08 12:49:00 -
[14]
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MSC Darklord
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Posted - 2009.01.08 13:24:00 -
[15]
This needs to get fixed.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.01.08 15:03:00 -
[16]
Well said. |
Captain Thunk
Vale Tudo.
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Posted - 2009.01.08 16:24:00 -
[17]
Supporting the reintroduction of "risk" in Eve-Online. |
Rivqua
Omega Wing
R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2009.01.08 16:43:00 -
[18]
This topic needs to be confirmed, or there needs to be a statement from the devs explaining the reasoning for changing tackle mechanics.
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sir gankalot
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Posted - 2009.01.08 17:02:00 -
[19]
Being a carebear I have no choice but to support this, I want to have valid excuses not to venture into low sec you see :) |
van Uber
SAE Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.08 17:46:00 -
[20]
I'm convinced that this is an unintended consequence. It should be looked into or commented by CCP.
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2009.01.08 17:52:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
You should not be able to point frigs/destroyers before they can warp away. Or cruisers if they are fitted for align but you are not fitted with sensor boosters.
Current stats work fine.
wow someone with working braincells that is not crying for easy kills 
things have not changed, before speed changes you could be fast and run with sub warp speeds, now you can run with align time. everything stays the same except you can hit those with fast align times if they choose to fight, thus the patch did what it was supposed to do. everything works fine.
if you wanna put something on the scales you need something on both sides to balance it out, but if you wanna destroy the last option to travel around in small gangs (or even alone) and turn the game even more into mindless stupid blobbing and make low sec empty go ahead (well atleast the game will match all your whiners brain capabilities then  )
in short, adapt or die 
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Jones 1st
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.08 17:57:00 -
[22]
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2009.01.08 18:03:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jones 1st
wow someone got a valid point, oh wait there is none like in the rest of this thread
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.08 18:35:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
Originally by: Naomi Knight
You should not be able to point frigs/destroyers before they can warp away. Or cruisers if they are fitted for align but you are not fitted with sensor boosters.
Current stats work fine.
wow someone with working braincells that is not crying for easy kills
things have not changed, before speed changes you could be fast and run with sub warp speeds, now you can run with align time. everything stays the same except you can hit those with fast align times if they choose to fight, thus the patch did what it was supposed to do. everything works fine.
if you wanna put something on the scales you need something on both sides to balance it out, but if you wanna destroy the last option to travel around in small gangs (or even alone) and turn the game even more into mindless stupid blobbing and make low sec empty go ahead (well atleast the game will match all your whiners brain capabilities then )
in short, adapt or die
Exactly.
If someone comes with a bs/bc you should be able to point him before he can warp away, because he should have scouted first. So what ships are for scouting?
Yeah you can say that recons and covert ops but thats a lot of skill for a new player ,so give them ability to scout and skip gate camps with frigs and destroyers. He wont be able to do anything other than warp off anyway or you could just point and kill him easily.
Just imagine a new player who would like to visit low-sec , with your idea he couldnt do much other than die to your boring blob gate camps, until he cant fly a covert ops ship. Because most of the gates would be camped 23/7.
And that would realy help moving players into low sec as it is already empty except some systems and faction war territories.
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Elgan
Repeat.
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Posted - 2009.01.08 20:00:00 -
[25]
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Crusari
Omniscient Order
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Posted - 2009.01.08 20:02:00 -
[26]
I support this, there's already too many ways of getting away from a fight that it's starting to get stupid. |
Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2009.01.08 20:51:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Crusari
I support this, there's already too many ways of getting away from a fight that it's starting to get stupid.
well tell us all those ways, enlighten us plz
if you setup your gang to catch stuff there is none face it and stop lieing |
Hatsumi Kobayashi
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.01.08 21:17:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Captain Thunk
Supporting the reintroduction of "risk" in Eve-Online.
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dojocan81
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Posted - 2009.01.08 22:16:00 -
[29]
/signed
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Brain Day
Space Boats
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Posted - 2009.01.08 23:13:00 -
[30]
/Signed
It's really great that a LOT of people are finally waking up to this horrendous problem.
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