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Falcon, the anti-fun of eve

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Mickey Simon Noir.	Posted - 2009.01.13 12:43:00 - [61] Originally by: Suitonia I think ECM is a horrid game mechanic for solo/small gang PvP. But at the same time, the force multiplication aim of ECM means that my 4 friends who are completely new to PvP now have a fighting chance against a group of 4 hardened PvPers if said PvPers neglect to fit ECCM. Meanwhile, on the other side of town . . .
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.01.13 12:45:00 - [62] I endorse anything that creates more fights and reduces ease of escape for people in general. Even though I'm terrible and it means I'll lose more ships. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2009.01.13 12:48:00 - [63] How things look on paper is definitely not a reflection of the game. On paper an ECCM makes you way harder to jam, but just spamming percentages doesn't show what happens in game. A 50% chance to be jammed doesn't mean you can't fight for 50% of the fight. Even assuming jam - miss - jam - miss, you have to add lock time to the jam length, meaning that instead of being jammed 40 seconds out of 80 you are likely unable to fight for 55 seconds. Also a 50% chance to jam can happily mean 3 or 4 cycles in a row. And considering how short fights in eve are, thats decisively huge. Even though a falcon can't totally disable a whole gang, most of the time there will be an obvious jam target. In a relatively small gang, by targeting the really big damage dealers, like megas and geddons, the falcon can remove potentially a half or a third of the gangs dps. The real question that needs to be asked about the falcon is that, assuming you have one decent damage dealer, and a Hictor in gang already, is there a reason to fly anything else ? A camp of a mega/rage raven, an onyx and 5 falcons... How do you combat that ?
Algey The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.13 12:50:00 - [64] Originally by: Suitonia ECCM is fine and a perfectly reasonable counter for medium gangs, no-one is denying that. It's just not for Solo or smaller gangs (5 members or less) where you need the midslots for tackle. 190km Snipers just arn't feasible in such sized gangs. I don't think the Falcon is the underlying problem here, although it certainly has brought the light on ECM due to it being the biggest sub-capital force multiplyer in the game while at the same time one of the hardest to kill with ECM/Cloak/Sniper range combo. I think ECM is a horrid game mechanic for solo/small gang PvP. Ah, a sensible post, and as a Falcon pilot I agree with the solo part. That said the falcon is a horrid ship to solo in, so we both need a gang :) I can jam 4 - 5 cruisers most of the time, if they are all different races, and if they do not fit ECCM. However if each one fits ECCM I can jam 2 - 3 of them most of the time. The biggest problem is that people know they will be getting falconed, yet they still insist in running their small gang with no ECCM. What does need to happen though is the falcon needs to be dropped to a 10% bonus, and the rook maybe upped slightly from where it is currently (a little too weak). I'm pretty sure that would balance them, but only if people learn that ECCM is needed.
Pac SubCom A.W.M	Posted - 2009.01.13 13:09:00 - [65] Originally by: Katarlia Simov A camp of a mega/rage raven, an onyx and 5 falcons... How do you combat that ? 3 Lachesis plus 3 hacs. --------------- ∞ TQFE
SLIM Slacker Industries	Posted - 2009.01.13 13:10:00 - [66] Of course falcons are overpowered. I love how half the solutions here are "omg bring more friends" or "learn to not suck, I kill falcons all the time!". Fact is, if a skilled pvp force has falcons, they are about 10x harder to kill. I'm not whining because I think falcons are mean, heck I have a falcon alt. Fact remains its unbalancing. The solution is actually really simple. Why isn't the curse overpowered? Because it can't fit large neuts. Make ECM size based. BS size mods current strength, cruiser halved, frigate quartered, since CCP loves that sort of simplistic stuff. Now the scorp and widow are ECM monsters, rook and falcon less so, and griffins are good for frigate gangs. Also then maybe people would use widows... While we're at it, remove the falcon's range bonus. Range and strength on a cloaked ship? Get out of here. Replace it with a missile bonus and give it another launcher or so.
Ka'loor Amarr Die Argonen	Posted - 2009.01.13 13:40:00 - [67] While i think that Solo pvp is something i could care less about. EVE isnt dominated by huge alliances and corps for nothing. War is dirty and anyone who expects a fair fight is simply in the wrong game. And im saying that as someone with practically no pvp background and 99% empire high sec preference. Im not starting to whine because pvprs are targeting mining corps.....i try to bring superior numbers anway. If you dont agree, well read up on history. Or check the Gaza strip on asymmetrical warfare.... To the underlying matter, the cloak ship should simply retain the Strength bonus and lose the range bonus. Make it like the Curse/Pilgrim. Attack without mercy, until blood is gone, until life is gone, until the light is gone, unto the shadow itself. Better to die with honor, than to live in shame.
Cohkka Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2009.01.13 14:52:00 - [68] Originally by: Ka'loor While i think that Solo pvp is something i could care less about. EVE isnt dominated by huge alliances and corps for nothing. War is dirty and anyone who expects a fair fight is simply in the wrong game. And im saying that as someone with practically no pvp background and 99% empire high sec preference. Im not starting to whine because pvprs are targeting mining corps.....i try to bring superior numbers anway. If you dont agree, well read up on history. Or check the Gaza strip on asymmetrical warfare.... To the underlying matter, the cloak ship should simply retain the Strength bonus and lose the range bonus. Make it like the Curse/Pilgrim. This ain't real life and eve used to be diffrent. Maybe you missed out on it (actually you did), but 2-3 years ago soloing was perfectly viable for skilled PvPers. The reason why soloing/small warfare went down the drain is because people are lazy and CCP invented lazy mechanics to adopt to that playstyle. I'd say the whole BS began with the cloak and introduction of probes. There could be a way better gamemechanic in a more skillfull way to track down people in a system, but CCP choose to go the lazy way and just lets you klick a few times - tada work is done... So it practicaly became a game of numbers. Large scale PvP has been buffed for years already, time to unnerf small scale PvP.
Hatt0ri Hanz0	Posted - 2009.01.13 14:53:00 - [69] I agree. When i think of an eve without ecm, or at least falcons, I get giddy with the prospect of fun fights. There has to be an alternative we can give the caldari.
Uhr Zylex Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille Blade.	Posted - 2009.01.13 15:04:00 - [70] Originally by: lebrata Yea and since CCP removed rail guns and all those other systems from eve that hit out that far things have gone from bad to worse.......hey wai.... Thank for another fine example of fail gang fittings/setups at work, your a wonderful example of a sand box clown wanting everything nerfed that operates outside his preferred fitting range........ I think you are the sandbox clown if you suggest a roaming gang of snipereagles or fleet battleships. I mean seriously, have you ever PVPed in this game?

Inir Ishtori The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation	Posted - 2009.01.13 15:27:00 - [71] how about making dampening ships a direct counter to falcon/ECM? give them a significant bonus to dampening range and a bit better sensor strength. now you can dampen a falcon/ECM so that it no longer will be able to jam you from 170 km away and will have to move closer giving a smaller gang a chance to reach it with a more reasonable weapon system than that of a sniper battleship. as a bonus dampening ships now have a better role in a fleet too. good or bad idea?
Shate Def The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus	Posted - 2009.01.13 15:34:00 - [72] Edited by: Shate Def on 13/01/2009 15:36:17 they really need to nerf the range and/or cycle time on those ecm ships, altho jamming itself is fine. and maybe even introduce scripts for ecm for either strength, range or cycle time.
lebrata Hedion University	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:07:00 - [73] Originally by: Uhr Zylex Originally by: lebrata Yea and since CCP removed rail guns and all those other systems from eve that hit out that far things have gone from bad to worse.......hey wai.... Thank for another fine example of fail gang fittings/setups at work, your a wonderful example of a sand box clown wanting everything nerfed that operates outside his preferred fitting range........ I think you are the sandbox clown if you suggest a roaming gang of snipereagles or fleet battleships. I mean seriously, have you ever PVPed in this game? I am quite sure i suggested no such thing, i only commented that they were available and that having a non versatile close range and immobile gang is limiting. A gang full of long range ships in a roaming gang would be as ineffective against certain types of ships as having a close range gang is against falcons and other long range fits. You should try to less emotional about this and read a little better pal your frustration at eve players not lining up to fight exactly they way you want them to is rather juvenile.
Faife Federation of Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:38:00 - [74] and that's the very definition of force multiplier: people freak out completely when falcons uncloak, and start making bad decisions you can bring an unfit one and still wreak havoc on a small gang battlefield
Kil2 Club Bear	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:52:00 - [75] im on board for this whine now as well. its really out of control. when i was flying in 5 man gangs and seeing falcons every 4th or 5th fight i was willing to deal with it. they CAN be killed with some coordination and enough people. but now its like 1 falcon for every 2 combat ships in opposing gangs so even if we have 5 and we try to engage 6-8 we are talking 2-3 falcons and theres just nothing you can do thats reasonable. and soloing is next to impossible. i mean gneez can solo in a god damn prophecy before this craziness and now look!
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.13 17:02:00 - [76] Face facts solo pvp is dead and its got nothing to do with falcons. Most people claiming to solo is in fact running two or more accounts.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.01.13 17:02:00 - [77] The only thing fun about falcons is when they decloak 40km from my Zealot and give me a free killmail due to being idiotic, really. ECM destroys small gangs, removing ships from the fight much better than any other form of EWAR can manage, and while still being the best (and due to range, ONLY) EWAR that can operate in fleets. I'm with Malcanis on this one. Rework ECM completely into the ground, redo the Caldari recons. The falcon is pretty much the pinnacle of min-maxing ewar: No tank? Doesn't matter, is out of range anyway No defense v. light ships? Put an ECM on them, warp off No highs for weapons? doesn't matter, nothing to shoot with them anyway It has a number of "disadvantages" that, when using the ship properly, are just meaningless. Plus, it can jam people and then cloak for 15 seconds, leaving them jammed and by the time the jam cycle is over the falcon has just about locked new targets again. I wish I could perform my primary role while cloaked or warping :( tl;dr: The falcon is overspecialized, too strong in its role and utterly worthless for anything else - but the latter does not excuse the former. It's like giving a race the best HACs by far and justifying it with "well the t1 frigates are bad." ECM is a frustrating mechanic to fight against, ECCM isn't effective enough on small ships, and ECM boats say "you must have at least THIS many people in order for your gang to do anything." It's incondusive to small gang combat. All game balance aside, ECM is not fun. It is, as Gneez said, the anti-fun, and that's the real problem. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Amira Shadowsong Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.13 17:11:00 - [78] I perma jam people all the time. It's real easy and I can do it from 250km range. Yes, I am overpowered.
Camilo Cienfuegos Earned In Blood	Posted - 2009.01.13 17:13:00 - [79] You know, nothing is solved by just whining about it on the forums. Head on over the appropriate link in my signature and add some suggestions on how we can make ECM better. Hardpoint Rigs ECM Balancing
Rennion	Posted - 2009.01.13 17:20:00 - [80] Seriosuly, fit a small gang up in your corp, all cruisers and get everyone to put one ECCM in a mid. First problem you have is your chronic lack of tackle. Second problem you have is that you still haven't countered the falcons because ECM does not stack on the target. 2 falcons turn up and your gang is toast as 4 of your guys (which in a small gang is a huge portion of your dps) are removed from the fight, tough ****, shoulda fit more ECCM and honour tackled amirite? ECCM is crap.

Recon Three Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:10:00 - [81] I recently sold my Falcon after a few months of ownership. That ship made the game insanely boring.
Jonas Barcal Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:14:00 - [82] Originally by: Recon Three I recently sold my Falcon after a few months of ownership. That ship made the game insanely boring. I sold my blaster boats as they made the game seem boring also, strange that.
Zoey Rapture DeathTek Industries Slammers	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:16:00 - [83] Edited by: Zoey Rapture on 13/01/2009 18:16:52 Weird, I sold my Falcon to fly blaster boats, lol. I guess after being 200km+ out for every single fight made me want to get up close and personal for once. So far I'm having fun, despite losing almost every ship I've built within a week, ha! Whatever though, I'm having a blast. No pun intended. Edit: Argh, stupid alt posting. </Recon Three> _____ You reap what you sow.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:17:00 - [84] Originally by: Recon Three I recently sold my Falcon after a few months of ownership. That ship made the game insanely boring. Sold my eagles, vultures, sniper BS, falcons, cerbs...................
3MH	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:04:00 - [85] people need to understand that if they start nerfing stuff like this soon eve will come down to who has a bigger and better tank and more damage than the other in which case fleet ops would requier no tactics and new player would be screwed in the game besides there are ways to take ecm boats np
Endless Subversion The Accursed	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:49:00 - [86] Originally by: Kil2 im on board for this whine now as well. its really out of control. when i was flying in 5 man gangs and seeing falcons every 4th or 5th fight i was willing to deal with it. they CAN be killed with some coordination and enough people. but now its like 1 falcon for every 2 combat ships in opposing gangs so even if we have 5 and we try to engage 6-8 we are talking 2-3 falcons and theres just nothing you can do thats reasonable. and soloing is next to impossible. i mean gneez can solo in a god damn prophecy before this craziness and now look! I've been watching this trend and posting about it for nearly a full YEAR now. It just takes players a little time to adapt due to skill-lag and realizing, "hey, this is super strong, I need to be doing that!" ECM as a whole (don't forget jam drones) and falcons in particular need to be balanced. I'm so sick of seeing this garbage in combat.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:17:00 - [87] Cba to read the OP, somebody tried to solo a gang and failed I take it?
Euriti Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:31:00 - [88] ECM is gay as hell, especially when your enemy brings tons of them and you see 3 Falcons and 2 Kitsunes on your lossmail.
Amira Shadowsong Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:48:00 - [89] Originally by: 3MH people need to understand that if they start nerfing stuff like this soon eve will come down to who has a bigger and better tank and more damage than the other in which case fleet ops would requier no tactics and new player would be screwed in the game besides there are ways to take ecm boats np No it won't. That is just some idiotic argument some moron invented to justify overpowered tactics. You know what, einstein? If ccp hadn't nerfed anything in eve there would still be 8xHS gankageddons flying around everywhere wich is a world of gank only and nothing else. You find that nerf bad aswell?
Cohkka Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:51:00 - [90] Originally by: 3MH people need to understand that if they start nerfing stuff like this soon eve will come down to who has a bigger and better tank and more damage than the other in which case fleet ops would requier no tactics and new player would be screwed in the game besides there are ways to take ecm boats np It never has been that way. Even when ECM was used as light support on Scorpions. Or as all the ignorant ECM lovers tend to say: learn to play...



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