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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Rizmordan Hillgotlieb
   |
Posted - 2004.07.28 17:49:00 -
[151]
uh... 0.1-0.4 is not 0.0 space. While I don't agree with the new timer rules. I can understand it. NOW if they added a CONCORD response element to 0.1-0.4 just like in 0.5-1.0 then I would cry "foul!". As it is I don't see this 15min timer being a threat to anything/anyone cept a small minority of players who want to hop around and gank in low sec space.
Posting for Numbnutz |
Rizmordan Hillgotlieb
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 17:49:00 -
[152]
uh... 0.1-0.4 is not 0.0 space. While I don't agree with the new timer rules. I can understand it. NOW if they added a CONCORD response element to 0.1-0.4 just like in 0.5-1.0 then I would cry "foul!". As it is I don't see this 15min timer being a threat to anything/anyone cept a small minority of players who want to hop around and gank in low sec space.
Posting for Numbnutz |
Lady Cricket
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Posted - 2004.07.28 17:50:00 -
[153]
Will someone PLEASE start a whinny pirate thread and make it a sticky? All of these sentry gun threads seem to be started by the same screaming crying 9 year old little girls who can't have it all their way. It was funny at first, now it's just plain sad.
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Lady Cricket
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Posted - 2004.07.28 17:50:00 -
[154]
Will someone PLEASE start a whinny pirate thread and make it a sticky? All of these sentry gun threads seem to be started by the same screaming crying 9 year old little girls who can't have it all their way. It was funny at first, now it's just plain sad.
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Naz Farooq
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Posted - 2004.07.28 18:33:00 -
[155]
I agree that we need negative sec status decay again.
I also think folks need a reason to go to 0.1-0.4 space; as it is there's no motivation for someone to go there. The ore isn't as profitable as 0.5+ or 0.0, the NPC's aren't as good as agent mission NPC's, and agent rewards for low sec agents don't outweigh the risk so long as you're just running missions to hit the implant lottery.
I personally think they should put a touch of zyd (a TOUCH) in hem and/or hed, bump the heck out of implant frequencies, and ditch the stupid 15 minute timer (or restrict it to station sentries or something). Otherwise you're just going to have folks mining/missioning in 0.5+ or hanging in alliance space since there's no reason to hang in 0.1-0.4.
Also, sec status is retarded and has lost all meaning. Implement decay now.
Sure, everyone supports saving Einstein's brain, but when you put it in the body of a Great White Shark, suddenly you've "gone too far". |
Naz Farooq
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Posted - 2004.07.28 18:33:00 -
[156]
I agree that we need negative sec status decay again.
I also think folks need a reason to go to 0.1-0.4 space; as it is there's no motivation for someone to go there. The ore isn't as profitable as 0.5+ or 0.0, the NPC's aren't as good as agent mission NPC's, and agent rewards for low sec agents don't outweigh the risk so long as you're just running missions to hit the implant lottery.
I personally think they should put a touch of zyd (a TOUCH) in hem and/or hed, bump the heck out of implant frequencies, and ditch the stupid 15 minute timer (or restrict it to station sentries or something). Otherwise you're just going to have folks mining/missioning in 0.5+ or hanging in alliance space since there's no reason to hang in 0.1-0.4.
Also, sec status is retarded and has lost all meaning. Implement decay now.
Sure, everyone supports saving Einstein's brain, but when you put it in the body of a Great White Shark, suddenly you've "gone too far". |
Attrael
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Posted - 2004.07.28 18:53:00 -
[157]
 Originally by: Naz Farooq
Also, sec status is retarded and has lost all meaning. Implement decay now.
And they also need to implement a prison system so good players can capture criminals and have them incarcerated for a while. Maybe a month or two. During which the criminal can only log in, chat, and train skill points. They won't be able to leave the prison station until their sentence is up. That would at least give the rest of us the ability to police the undesireables in some meaningful manner with the lack of sentry guns, flags, and security status. 
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Attrael
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Posted - 2004.07.28 18:53:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Naz Farooq
Also, sec status is retarded and has lost all meaning. Implement decay now.
And they also need to implement a prison system so good players can capture criminals and have them incarcerated for a while. Maybe a month or two. During which the criminal can only log in, chat, and train skill points. They won't be able to leave the prison station until their sentence is up. That would at least give the rest of us the ability to police the undesireables in some meaningful manner with the lack of sentry guns, flags, and security status.
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ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.07.28 19:26:00 -
[159]
I hope you are trying to be funny.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.07.28 19:26:00 -
[160]
I hope you are trying to be funny.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Buddy Bruehller
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Posted - 2004.07.28 19:49:00 -
[161]
Wow does f'n HYPOCRITE come to mind? Anyone?
Every F'n pirate and his mom was up and down the forums SCREAMING for nerfs to travel and travel related modules. So now trading, agent running and general hauling are THE single most tedious thing in EVE.
You have the F'n nerve to start a thread about how CCP has boned you? Get the F over yourself and F'n deal with it. Because you have NO F'n idea what tedious even means.
Not that I agree with adding time to any activity in Eve. But you and basically everyone else who felt it was ok to nerf the S't out of everyone elses game brought this upon yourselves.
TBH I hope you do quit and no I don't want your stuff, you can choke on it for all I care.
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Buddy Bruehller
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Posted - 2004.07.28 19:49:00 -
[162]
Wow does f'n HYPOCRITE come to mind? Anyone?
Every F'n pirate and his mom was up and down the forums SCREAMING for nerfs to travel and travel related modules. So now trading, agent running and general hauling are THE single most tedious thing in EVE.
You have the F'n nerve to start a thread about how CCP has boned you? Get the F over yourself and F'n deal with it. Because you have NO F'n idea what tedious even means.
Not that I agree with adding time to any activity in Eve. But you and basically everyone else who felt it was ok to nerf the S't out of everyone elses game brought this upon yourselves.
TBH I hope you do quit and no I don't want your stuff, you can choke on it for all I care.
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Auman
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Posted - 2004.07.28 20:25:00 -
[163]
lol you need to chill out!
Adding a 15 minute waiting period for an agressive act seems over the top. The idea to make it 15 minutes (still seems too long) if you actually kill someone sounds like a better idea.
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Auman
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Posted - 2004.07.28 20:25:00 -
[164]
lol you need to chill out!
Adding a 15 minute waiting period for an agressive act seems over the top. The idea to make it 15 minutes (still seems too long) if you actually kill someone sounds like a better idea.
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Lady Cricket
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Posted - 2004.07.28 20:41:00 -
[165]
LOL...Whoa there Buddy. I agree with you on all points but in not quite the same...erm...colorful language. From what I have read in these forums what you say is true. Also, another thing I have noticed is CCP's way of over nerfing everything. I'm sure eventually things will change again. At least I hope so. All of these tears are going to short out my computer. 
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Lady Cricket
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Posted - 2004.07.28 20:41:00 -
[166]
LOL...Whoa there Buddy. I agree with you on all points but in not quite the same...erm...colorful language. From what I have read in these forums what you say is true. Also, another thing I have noticed is CCP's way of over nerfing everything. I'm sure eventually things will change again. At least I hope so. All of these tears are going to short out my computer.
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Sally
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Posted - 2004.07.28 21:13:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Lusiphur
Define 'pirating' please Sally.
I don't need to define it. I didn't use the term in this thread.
And even if I'd have done that, I don't owe you any definition.
I also refuse to discuss with people like you who try to use morals in games (your point b).
--
Stories: #1
--
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Sally
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Posted - 2004.07.28 21:13:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Lusiphur
Define 'pirating' please Sally.
I don't need to define it. I didn't use the term in this thread.
And even if I'd have done that, I don't owe you any definition.
I also refuse to discuss with people like you who try to use morals in games (your point b).
--
Stories: #1
--
|
Lusiphur
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Posted - 2004.07.28 21:27:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Sally
Originally by: Lusiphur
Define 'pirating' please Sally.
I don't need to define it. I didn't use the term in this thread.
And even if I'd have done that, I don't owe you any definition.
I also refuse to discuss with people like you who try to use morals in games (your point b).
Whoa Nelly ...
Who the hell is discussing morals ? Any change in this game is (Should be ?) driven by two considerations
a) The fun factor for all concerned
b) CCP's bottom line
With those in mind, I can see why this change was implemented. Low sec (NOT 0.0) is where the rubber meets the road. You can't mine/npc without the risk of being pirated and you cant pirate without some form of criminal flagging.
I actually agreed with you, I felt the 15 minute cool down was unjustified when it applied to ANY aggressive act but you surely cannot tell me that you expect to be able to operate in low sec in the manner you prefer without any comeback whatsoever ?
You don't know me, I don't post on the boards much and you have never met me in game or RL. Therefore your comment about people like me is fatuous at best. Which is a shame as I respect your obvious knowledge of the game and your standing within it, your many posts on the board have usually been worth reading.
My point b struck directly at the heart of why CCP made this change (IMO), if you want to fix something you have to understand root causes. Obviously you just want to lash out and not try and consider all angles and reach a workable compromise.
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Lusiphur
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Posted - 2004.07.28 21:27:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Sally
Originally by: Lusiphur
Define 'pirating' please Sally.
I don't need to define it. I didn't use the term in this thread.
And even if I'd have done that, I don't owe you any definition.
I also refuse to discuss with people like you who try to use morals in games (your point b).
Whoa Nelly ...
Who the hell is discussing morals ? Any change in this game is (Should be ?) driven by two considerations
a) The fun factor for all concerned
b) CCP's bottom line
With those in mind, I can see why this change was implemented. Low sec (NOT 0.0) is where the rubber meets the road. You can't mine/npc without the risk of being pirated and you cant pirate without some form of criminal flagging.
I actually agreed with you, I felt the 15 minute cool down was unjustified when it applied to ANY aggressive act but you surely cannot tell me that you expect to be able to operate in low sec in the manner you prefer without any comeback whatsoever ?
You don't know me, I don't post on the boards much and you have never met me in game or RL. Therefore your comment about people like me is fatuous at best. Which is a shame as I respect your obvious knowledge of the game and your standing within it, your many posts on the board have usually been worth reading.
My point b struck directly at the heart of why CCP made this change (IMO), if you want to fix something you have to understand root causes. Obviously you just want to lash out and not try and consider all angles and reach a workable compromise.
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Raven Norsca
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Posted - 2004.07.28 21:50:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Raven Norsca on 28/07/2004 21:52:52
Edited by: Raven Norsca on 28/07/2004 21:51:56
Eve isn't really PVP. it tends more towards P-v-helpless.
Nothing like mining with 4 cruisers using 4 battleships cover and having 12 Battleships warp in and wipe you out.
I'm not complaining but some people have to much time and money to gather such a force to take out small time miners
It's come to the point that the reason carebears exist is because there's no point to try mining in low sec space anymore. it's suicide :)
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Raven Norsca
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Posted - 2004.07.28 21:50:00 -
[172]
Edited by: Raven Norsca on 28/07/2004 21:52:52
Edited by: Raven Norsca on 28/07/2004 21:51:56
Eve isn't really PVP. it tends more towards P-v-helpless.
Nothing like mining with 4 cruisers using 4 battleships cover and having 12 Battleships warp in and wipe you out.
I'm not complaining but some people have to much time and money to gather such a force to take out small time miners
It's come to the point that the reason carebears exist is because there's no point to try mining in low sec space anymore. it's suicide :)
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Sally
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 21:55:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Lusiphur
Originally by: Sally
Originally by: Lusiphur
Define 'pirating' please Sally.
I don't need to define it. I didn't use the term in this thread.
And even if I'd have done that, I don't owe you any definition.
I also refuse to discuss with people like you who try to use morals in games (your point b).
Whoa Nelly ...
Who the hell is discussing morals ? Any change in this game is (Should be ?) driven by two considerations
a) The fun factor for all concerned
b) CCP's bottom line
With those in mind, I can see why this change was implemented. Low sec (NOT 0.0) is where the rubber meets the road. You can't mine/npc without the risk of being pirated and you cant pirate without some form of criminal flagging.
I actually agreed with you, I felt the 15 minute cool down was unjustified when it applied to ANY aggressive act but you surely cannot tell me that you expect to be able to operate in low sec in the manner you prefer without any comeback whatsoever ?
You don't know me, I don't post on the boards much and you have never met me in game or RL. Therefore your comment about people like me is fatuous at best. Which is a shame as I respect your obvious knowledge of the game and your standing within it, your many posts on the board have usually been worth reading.
My point b struck directly at the heart of why CCP made this change (IMO), if you want to fix something you have to understand root causes. Obviously you just want to lash out and not try and consider all angles and reach a workable compromise.
You are talking about the consideration of all angles? And a compromise? WOW.
I am free to shoot for all anyway. Anywhere. Anytime. Due to my sec rating. And I often am criminally flagged. I didn't care or moan about that. Okay?
But the new timer is just a time sink. I used to have fun in a frig in low sec space, now, every time I try to attack someone, I have to wait for 15 minutes after it, because the sentries will destroy my ship if I try to move to continue to play the game.
So tell me, what are the benefits for the "others" after this change? Beside of the point, that I will be slowed down in my travel and therefor the low sec space will be a bit safer for them? And how does this improve the fun factor for the "others", since it surely ruined mine to a point where I will be leaving the game?
You know, a low spec safe pirate is already "bottom lined" as you say it. I am easy to recognize as a potential threat and there is always the option to defend yourself when you get attacked or you can equip your ship for escape. I am not able to enter the safe space, have longer supply lines and pay more for ships (due to delivery fees) and so on.
So what was unbalanced in me hunting in low sec space? How was it not fun for the "others" to have the opportunity to defend themself or run away and doing something else than just sitting in a belt in unsecure space? I gave them a new opportuninity in the game to do something.
You are talking about a compromise? Maybe you want to look up the definition of a compromise again, I do not benefit from the change and there was nothing to somehow reimburse the people affected by this change in order to make them happy.
It's really simple: CCP is removing possiblities for pirates all the time making the career not playable, without allowing an easy change to a new career or adding new possibilities for pirates.
And by the way, your point B would maybe make some sense if CCP didn't screw over point A pirates like they did it. See also my original post with the note about the Space Invaders.
--
Stories: #1
--
|
Sally
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 21:55:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Lusiphur
Originally by: Sally
Originally by: Lusiphur
Define 'pirating' please Sally.
I don't need to define it. I didn't use the term in this thread.
And even if I'd have done that, I don't owe you any definition.
I also refuse to discuss with people like you who try to use morals in games (your point b).
Whoa Nelly ...
Who the hell is discussing morals ? Any change in this game is (Should be ?) driven by two considerations
a) The fun factor for all concerned
b) CCP's bottom line
With those in mind, I can see why this change was implemented. Low sec (NOT 0.0) is where the rubber meets the road. You can't mine/npc without the risk of being pirated and you cant pirate without some form of criminal flagging.
I actually agreed with you, I felt the 15 minute cool down was unjustified when it applied to ANY aggressive act but you surely cannot tell me that you expect to be able to operate in low sec in the manner you prefer without any comeback whatsoever ?
You don't know me, I don't post on the boards much and you have never met me in game or RL. Therefore your comment about people like me is fatuous at best. Which is a shame as I respect your obvious knowledge of the game and your standing within it, your many posts on the board have usually been worth reading.
My point b struck directly at the heart of why CCP made this change (IMO), if you want to fix something you have to understand root causes. Obviously you just want to lash out and not try and consider all angles and reach a workable compromise.
You are talking about the consideration of all angles? And a compromise? WOW.
I am free to shoot for all anyway. Anywhere. Anytime. Due to my sec rating. And I often am criminally flagged. I didn't care or moan about that. Okay?
But the new timer is just a time sink. I used to have fun in a frig in low sec space, now, every time I try to attack someone, I have to wait for 15 minutes after it, because the sentries will destroy my ship if I try to move to continue to play the game.
So tell me, what are the benefits for the "others" after this change? Beside of the point, that I will be slowed down in my travel and therefor the low sec space will be a bit safer for them? And how does this improve the fun factor for the "others", since it surely ruined mine to a point where I will be leaving the game?
You know, a low spec safe pirate is already "bottom lined" as you say it. I am easy to recognize as a potential threat and there is always the option to defend yourself when you get attacked or you can equip your ship for escape. I am not able to enter the safe space, have longer supply lines and pay more for ships (due to delivery fees) and so on.
So what was unbalanced in me hunting in low sec space? How was it not fun for the "others" to have the opportunity to defend themself or run away and doing something else than just sitting in a belt in unsecure space? I gave them a new opportuninity in the game to do something.
You are talking about a compromise? Maybe you want to look up the definition of a compromise again, I do not benefit from the change and there was nothing to somehow reimburse the people affected by this change in order to make them happy.
It's really simple: CCP is removing possiblities for pirates all the time making the career not playable, without allowing an easy change to a new career or adding new possibilities for pirates.
And by the way, your point B would maybe make some sense if CCP didn't screw over point A pirates like they did it. See also my original post with the note about the Space Invaders.
--
Stories: #1
--
|
Joshua Foiritain
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 22:25:00 -
[175]
Somehow allowing pirates to change their carrer would be nice.
A way that doesnt take +10 years because gaining sec status for killing rats takes ages....
---------------------------
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Joshua Foiritain
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 22:25:00 -
[176]
Somehow allowing pirates to change their carrer would be nice.
A way that doesnt take +10 years because gaining sec status for killing rats takes ages....
---------------------------
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Lustralis
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 22:33:00 -
[177]
I dunno why but I still find this whole think f'ing hilarious. Especially after reading a million flames from pirate characters on threads started by "carebears" who have been ganked.
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Lustralis
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Posted - 2004.07.28 22:33:00 -
[178]
I dunno why but I still find this whole think f'ing hilarious. Especially after reading a million flames from pirate characters on threads started by "carebears" who have been ganked.
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Lusiphur
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 22:48:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Sally
You are talking about the consideration of all angles? And a compromise? WOW.
I am free to shoot for all anyway. Anywhere. Anytime. Due to my sec rating. And I often am criminally flagged. I didn't care or moan about that. Okay?
But the new timer is just a time sink. I used to have fun in a frig in low sec space, now, every time I try to attack someone, I have to wait for 15 minutes after it, because the sentries will destroy my ship if I try to move to continue to play the game.
So tell me, what are the benefits for the "others" after this change? Beside of the point, that I will be slowed down in my travel and therefor the low sec space will be a bit safer for them? And how does this improve the fun factor for the "others", since it surely ruined mine to a point where I will be leaving the game?
You know, a low spec safe pirate is already "bottom lined" as you say it. I am easy to recognize as a potential threat and there is always the option to defend yourself when you get attacked or you can equip your ship for escape. I am not able to enter the safe space, have longer supply lines and pay more for ships (due to delivery fees) and so on.
So what was unbalanced in me hunting in low sec space? How was it not fun for the "others" to have the opportunity to defend themself or run away and doing something else than just sitting in a belt in unsecure space? I gave them a new opportuninity in the game to do something.
You are talking about a compromise? Maybe you want to look up the definition of a compromise again, I do not benefit from the change and there was nothing to somehow reimburse the people affected by this change in order to make them happy.
It's really simple: CCP is removing possiblities for pirates all the time making the career not playable, without allowing an easy change to a new career or adding new possibilities for pirates.
And by the way, your point B would maybe make some sense if CCP didn't screw over point A pirates like they did it. See also my original post with the note about the Space Invaders.
I agree with you, honestly I do. I would hate for there to be no pirates in Eve. However, we are talking about a part of space that does have some player protection. Low sec is not 0.0. Personally I see low sec as a 'training ground' for pvp'ers and non-pvp'ers alike. For the pvp'ers the targets are usually easier and for the non-pvp'ers there are still gates and stations to run to. However those gates and stations are meant to protect them when they run to them which is why this 'flagged to frag' for 15 minute thing was put in.
Maybe a viable compromise would be something like this ..
Assume Sally warps in to a belt and sees an unsuspecting miner doing unspeakable things to a 'roid. This so offends her sense of propriety that she immediately begins locking the offending miner.
Scenario 1
Her lock is obtained and she opens fire and scrambles the miner. After a few choice words in convo the miner blows up and Sally slashes another notch in her joystick. No criminal flag as the killing blow was delivered and dead men tell no tales.
Scenario 2
The miner is alive to the threat and warps to a gate/station. Sally is criminal flagged until one of the following things occurs ..
1) The miner jumps or docks
2) 1 minute passes
Scenario 3
The miner jumps to a safe spot. No criminal flag as the miner hasn't gotten 'in range' of the sentries to inform them of the aggression.
Is this a more acceptable compromise ? It gives the non-pvper the protection of the sentries but should not slow the pvp'er down much (if at all). This would seem in line with the spirit of CCP's change but should not cripple the pvp'er.
Compromise comes from discussion, negotiation and calm rationalisation. If, at the end of the day, this change destroys 'the fun' in Eve for you Sally then that is a sad thing. From my side of the fence I can see why CCP wanted some form of sentry protection in low sec. It only remains to find a way to implement that without having the pvp'er subject to such an artifical limiting mechanism.
|
Lusiphur
|
Posted - 2004.07.28 22:48:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Sally
You are talking about the consideration of all angles? And a compromise? WOW.
I am free to shoot for all anyway. Anywhere. Anytime. Due to my sec rating. And I often am criminally flagged. I didn't care or moan about that. Okay?
But the new timer is just a time sink. I used to have fun in a frig in low sec space, now, every time I try to attack someone, I have to wait for 15 minutes after it, because the sentries will destroy my ship if I try to move to continue to play the game.
So tell me, what are the benefits for the "others" after this change? Beside of the point, that I will be slowed down in my travel and therefor the low sec space will be a bit safer for them? And how does this improve the fun factor for the "others", since it surely ruined mine to a point where I will be leaving the game?
You know, a low spec safe pirate is already "bottom lined" as you say it. I am easy to recognize as a potential threat and there is always the option to defend yourself when you get attacked or you can equip your ship for escape. I am not able to enter the safe space, have longer supply lines and pay more for ships (due to delivery fees) and so on.
So what was unbalanced in me hunting in low sec space? How was it not fun for the "others" to have the opportunity to defend themself or run away and doing something else than just sitting in a belt in unsecure space? I gave them a new opportuninity in the game to do something.
You are talking about a compromise? Maybe you want to look up the definition of a compromise again, I do not benefit from the change and there was nothing to somehow reimburse the people affected by this change in order to make them happy.
It's really simple: CCP is removing possiblities for pirates all the time making the career not playable, without allowing an easy change to a new career or adding new possibilities for pirates.
And by the way, your point B would maybe make some sense if CCP didn't screw over point A pirates like they did it. See also my original post with the note about the Space Invaders.
I agree with you, honestly I do. I would hate for there to be no pirates in Eve. However, we are talking about a part of space that does have some player protection. Low sec is not 0.0. Personally I see low sec as a 'training ground' for pvp'ers and non-pvp'ers alike. For the pvp'ers the targets are usually easier and for the non-pvp'ers there are still gates and stations to run to. However those gates and stations are meant to protect them when they run to them which is why this 'flagged to frag' for 15 minute thing was put in.
Maybe a viable compromise would be something like this ..
Assume Sally warps in to a belt and sees an unsuspecting miner doing unspeakable things to a 'roid. This so offends her sense of propriety that she immediately begins locking the offending miner.
Scenario 1
Her lock is obtained and she opens fire and scrambles the miner. After a few choice words in convo the miner blows up and Sally slashes another notch in her joystick. No criminal flag as the killing blow was delivered and dead men tell no tales.
Scenario 2
The miner is alive to the threat and warps to a gate/station. Sally is criminal flagged until one of the following things occurs ..
1) The miner jumps or docks
2) 1 minute passes
Scenario 3
The miner jumps to a safe spot. No criminal flag as the miner hasn't gotten 'in range' of the sentries to inform them of the aggression.
Is this a more acceptable compromise ? It gives the non-pvper the protection of the sentries but should not slow the pvp'er down much (if at all). This would seem in line with the spirit of CCP's change but should not cripple the pvp'er.
Compromise comes from discussion, negotiation and calm rationalisation. If, at the end of the day, this change destroys 'the fun' in Eve for you Sally then that is a sad thing. From my side of the fence I can see why CCP wanted some form of sentry protection in low sec. It only remains to find a way to implement that without having the pvp'er subject to such an artifical limiting mechanism.
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