| Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Kazzac Elentria
   |
Posted - 2009.01.22 16:36:00 -
[61]
I think the limiting factor in enforcing any such rule of law is that the GMs or rather CCP would have to get involved. Either with existing resources or creating new ones to handle the work load increase.
Not something I think they are keen on, for what they consider such a small portion of the game. |
Jiang Qing
Garoun Investment Bank
|
Posted - 2009.01.22 17:05:00 -
[62]
 Originally by: Ulstan
Stuff
Hang on a minute! Comparing Eve with RL?
Let me think of a few reasons why being scammed in RL really is a problem and why it's irrelevant in Eve.
1) Starvation. Anyone gone hungry in Eve?
2) Healthcare. Waaah I can't afford to renew my clone!
3) Pension. Will Eve be around that long?
4) School Fees. Damn that skillbook is expensive....
5) Alimony. Nice thought...
If losing a ton of ISK actually meant anything, then yes, it would be worth implementing some system to protect against it but Eve is a wild lawless universe, where anything goes, and that's why so many people like it!
Every day we fly around, trading, avoiding gankers, PvPing, worrying about Corp theft, knowing that we could lose a ton of ISK any minute if something goes wrong or we have a lapse of judgement.
What's so different about IPO/Bond investment that it needs special protection?
|
Ulstan
Caldari
State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2009.01.22 17:16:00 -
[63]
I don't think you're quite grasping my point. I'm not interested in whether scamming is moral or whether people should do it or not.
I'm saying that the risk vs reward for scamming is fundamentally broken. High rewards. very low risk. If you succeed, you get billions and no harm can befall you. If you fail..uh..people don't send you their money and you can try again later.
Any very low risk high reward activity steadily increases in popularity until something is done about it, or it consumes the entire game.
While a wild lawless universe is appealing to many people, the idea of a consequence free universe usually isn't as much :p |
MailDeadDrop
Globaltech Industries
|
Posted - 2009.01.22 17:19:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Jiang Qing
What's so different about IPO/Bond investment that it needs special protection?
If you can indicate a statement I made saying that the Eve civil justice system would be limited to IPO/Bond scams, then you have a point. But I see no reason that such a civil court system should be so limited.
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
I think the limiting factor in enforcing any such rule of law is that the GMs or rather CCP would have to get involved. Either with existing resources or creating new ones to handle the work load increase.
Not something I think they are keen on, for what they consider such a small portion of the game.
Well, I don't see there's any way to have a new mechanism implemented without requiring effort from CCP, so I'll agree with you there.  The judgment of whether it is too small to warrant such effort is CCP's, and I have no particular insight there. I don't disagree with your opinion, but neither do I agree with it.
Just thinking off the cuff, I'm imagining a civil court system that is as player-driven as possible. Elect the judges like the CSM. Have them go through some training like ISD. Automate the discovery process, and have it run by the judges (i.e. judges get to vet the requests). Have judicial review handled by a new ISD division.
Have certificates for legal representation (lawyers) that players earn. Look! a whole new career path! And a whole new class of characters worthy of ganking/bounties! 
MDD
Jump Clones: 8M and NO corp switching |
Ambo
State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2009.01.22 17:31:00 -
[65]
Quote:
I'm imagining a civil court system that is as player-driven as possible. Elect the judges like the CSM. Have them go through some training like ISD.
If scammers can get enough reputation for people to give them tons of isk, they can also get people to vote for them to sit on this court panel.
Nice idea but clearly far to corruptable.
--------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2009.01.22 17:43:00 -
[66]
Originally by: MailDeadDrop
Just thinking off the cuff, I'm imagining a civil court system that is as player-driven as possible. Elect the judges like the CSM. Have them go through some training like ISD. Automate the discovery process, and have it run by the judges (i.e. judges get to vet the requests). Have judicial review handled by a new ISD division.
Have certificates for legal representation (lawyers) that players earn. Look! a whole new career path! And a whole new class of characters worthy of ganking/bounties!
MDD
Still, in the end for it to be truly enforceable, in so far as judgments declared and assets seized would require upper level intervention. On the same order than exploits and isk to cash sales are dealt with now.
And I think honestly those guys have enough on their plate right now tracking down evil doers. |
Rigid Phallic
|
Posted - 2009.01.22 18:19:00 -
[67]
CREDIT CRUNCH
TOXIC DEBT
BAD LOANS
just my 2 cents worth..actually no keep the 2 cents |
Feryal Sky
|
Posted - 2009.01.22 19:36:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Feryal Sky on 22/01/2009 19:37:01
"The five colors blind our eyes.
The five tones deafen our ears.
The five flavors confuse our taste.
Racing and hunting madden our minds.
Possessing rare treasures brings about harmful behavior.
Therefore the sage regards his center, and not his eyes."
Dao De Jing |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
|
Posted - 2009.01.22 22:32:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: MailDeadDrop
Just thinking off the cuff, I'm imagining a civil court system that is as player-driven as possible. Elect the judges like the CSM. Have them go through some training like ISD. Automate the discovery process, and have it run by the judges (i.e. judges get to vet the requests). Have judicial review handled by a new ISD division.
Have certificates for legal representation (lawyers) that players earn. Look! a whole new career path! And a whole new class of characters worthy of ganking/bounties!
MDD
Still, in the end for it to be truly enforceable, in so far as judgments declared and assets seized would require upper level intervention. On the same order than exploits and isk to cash sales are dealt with now.
And I think honestly those guys have enough on their plate right now tracking down evil doers.
Even CCP can't link alt accounts with any certainty if they're paid for from different sources and from different IP addresses; there's a reason they're never sure how many distinct players there are. A player-driven justice system would never work unless it was impossible to do anything ingame without using a player-driven banking system. |
MailDeadDrop
Globaltech Industries
|
Posted - 2009.01.22 22:41:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Even CCP can't link alt accounts with any certainty if they're paid for from different sources and from different IP addresses; there's a reason they're never sure how many distinct players there are. A player-driven justice system would never work unless it was impossible to do anything ingame without using a player-driven banking system.
I'm not disputing your claim that linking alt accounts is hard, but for the purposes of a civil justice system I think all one would need would be the ability to follow transfers (isk/goods player->player and goods hangar->hangar). The intent is to make it possible to "retrieve" ill-gotten gains. If the player behind scam-char-X also has innocent-char-Y, and so long as things of value aren't traded from X to Y, I don't think the justice system cares about discovering that the player behind X is also the player behind Y.
MDD |
Divine Corruption
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 06:02:00 -
[71]
In my years of playing I might have sold a few 10mil isk shuttles(i miss the old escrow days), some fake bookmarks, maybe even sold a few pieces of trit with the title of Vexor. But that's in game mechanics, and part of the game where I see no action by CCP should be needed.
But on the forums, just like with GTC and Character trades there should be some sort of secure/semi secure way to post bonds. Even if you have to create specific threads with specific rules. If a certain percent of the promises are not met by the issuer then CCP should have the right to suspend/seize assets/additional accounts until a certain pre-arranged percent is paid back. Or they could at least publicly link characters and alts for those who have been found guilty of scamming the community. (right click, show info, show alts, show other linked accounts)
An example:To protect investors from wrongdoing on my part, Divine Corruption agrees that CCP/CONCORD shall sieze/suspend my assets until 80% of the orginal investment is paid back. I also agree that if I cannot pay back all funds CCP/CONCORD shall release all of my characters information so I can be hunted down and harassed in game by unhappy investors.
Something like that.
|
Raskaloth
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 06:33:00 -
[72]
But isnt the question, does EVE "world" really care about the players behind the characters? If you assume I have one character who is a scamming pirate and other one who is a respected merchant, should there be any relation between those two, if you assume I play them as separate characters, with separate money/assets.
In the EVE universe I dont see us existing as players, but as characters and thus, the question is, should actions of a character have impact on the player's other characters.
I agree that to some extent yes, as characters are only a representation of the player behind it, but some enjoy playing in different styles with different characters. Would you be so harsh to a respected anti-pirate corp FC who also enjoys pirating every now and then?
There is also the problem of metagame information in this respect. Can you assume that a character wont use the information other character has gained to gain an advantage? Most likely they will and this makes it harder to treat same players characters and completely different entities.
In the secondary market players generally invest on players, not characters, but ingame there really are no players, just characters, as far as the EVE universe is concerned. But then again, is EVE really a "roleplaying" game or just a game where you can assume different roles..
-Rask
|
YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 12:17:00 -
[73]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 23/01/2009 12:20:37
Let's get one thing straight, CCP will never do anything to prevent scamming or provide consequences for it. And this is the way it should be, so stop *****ing and moaning about that.
What the community doesn't seem to understand is that even if some regulatory system is drawn that prevents 99.99% of the scams from occurring this will only delay the moment of a big scam. That which people praise the most (reputation) will come back to kick them in the ass.
For some reason the brain has a higher recollection of negative events than positive ones. By averting small scams the MD regulars are actually wasting their time while doing a disservice to the community, the investment pool grows to the point the now numb investors will be more lenient towards gambling with their isk. And that's all it takes to set in motion the next big scam.
Black Sun Empire |
Zaran Darkstar
Divine Slaves
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 12:54:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 23/01/2009 12:53:52
No sympathy by me to the scammed "investors" . The investors are rich people who see investment as an easy way to mutiply their billions without they move a finger. When that doesn;t happen they scream about scamming and how this needs to be stopped but it's themselves who went to take advantage of the the person that proved to be a scammer.
In other words that is exactly the way the thing works. A corp asks for funds by rich people promising to do all the hard complicated work and give back much profit to the investors.
So in other words the company/corp offers to be the investor's *****. What the investors do ? They take advantage of the situation. They invest not because of their good heart but because they are sharks that try to make big bucks effortlessly. Well, looks like this time they had a bigger shark bite them but that doesn't mean they were angels. |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 13:07:00 -
[75]
Never be any SCAM protection, as it should be. This isn't WOW.
Anyway, even if some protection was added you could get around it.
something like
"Dear investors, while in the process of placing my faction POS's, pirates came and ganked me and stole all my gear. I am sorry to report this venture is a total loss and you 12B ISK is gone. Again I am truly sorry"
How would you go about proving the above statement was a SCAM? Are you sure the pirates are his friends?
Idiots will always find ways round the idiot proofing!
|
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 13:18:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: MailDeadDrop
Just thinking off the cuff, I'm imagining a civil court system that is as player-driven as possible. Elect the judges like the CSM. Have them go through some training like ISD. Automate the discovery process, and have it run by the judges (i.e. judges get to vet the requests). Have judicial review handled by a new ISD division.
Have certificates for legal representation (lawyers) that players earn. Look! a whole new career path! And a whole new class of characters worthy of ganking/bounties!
MDD
Still, in the end for it to be truly enforceable, in so far as judgments declared and assets seized would require upper level intervention. On the same order than exploits and isk to cash sales are dealt with now.
And I think honestly those guys have enough on their plate right now tracking down evil doers.
Even CCP can't link alt accounts with any certainty if they're paid for from different sources and from different IP addresses; there's a reason they're never sure how many distinct players there are. A player-driven justice system would never work unless it was impossible to do anything ingame without using a player-driven banking system.
Exactly the point I was driving at.
Linking accounts together is a laborious processes requiring database and log access and more importantly... staff time to do so since no player will ever be able to get to that level.
|
Joss Sparq
Caldari
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 14:22:00 -
[77]
Originally by: YouGotRipped
A more logical course would be to take legal action against isk selling for RL cash but this is laughable as well. All that CCP can do is ban the offenders.
I look forward to the day that rising legal costs make cruise missile strikes the economical, preferred solution to ISK Sellers.
|
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 14:28:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Joss Sparq
Originally by: YouGotRipped
A more logical course would be to take legal action against isk selling for RL cash but this is laughable as well. All that CCP can do is ban the offenders.
I look forward to the day that rising legal costs make cruise missile strikes the economical, preferred solution to ISK Sellers.
pffft, everyone knows you use citadel torps |
oogs
Gallente
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 16:28:00 -
[79]
I don't post very often at all, mainly because I've been burned by a scam but also because I found a better way to raise cash. My current thought is that if you're going to try and make an IPO, go to folks who know you first. MD is nice if you've already had something running for a while and want to start a second/third/fourth IPO, need a loan, etc. Just as long as you have a proven history. I figure this would weed out most people starting IPOs who don't have a clue about what they're doing.
|
flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc
Lazy is our middle name
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 16:35:00 -
[80]
Originally by: oogs
I don't post very often at all, mainly because I've been burned by a scam but also because I found a better way to raise cash. My current thought is that if you're going to try and make an IPO, go to folks who know you first. MD is nice if you've already had something running for a while and want to start a second/third/fourth IPO, need a loan, etc. Just as long as you have a proven history. I figure this would weed out most people starting IPOs who don't have a clue about what they're doing.
Bout the same here.Invested in about 8 IPO's last year.When the last one turned out to be a scam and i still was on the profit-side of investments i pulled it all out and restarted my own trades with it.To be honest i was getting damn lazy and it was time something woke me up, too bad such a ****head had to earn cash from it.
I now handpick people myself to invest in and teach them the starters of trades.I invest time and isk and get my share back for it.Still not 100% safe but about the safest one can get in eve.
|
Amarr Citizen 155
Alternative Methods Research Group
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 16:57:00 -
[81]
Originally by: flakeys
Originally by: oogs
I don't post very often at all, mainly because I've been burned by a scam but also because I found a better way to raise cash. My current thought is that if you're going to try and make an IPO, go to folks who know you first. MD is nice if you've already had something running for a while and want to start a second/third/fourth IPO, need a loan, etc. Just as long as you have a proven history. I figure this would weed out most people starting IPOs who don't have a clue about what they're doing.
Bout the same here.Invested in about 8 IPO's last year.When the last one turned out to be a scam and i still was on the profit-side of investments i pulled it all out and restarted my own trades with it.To be honest i was getting damn lazy and it was time something woke me up, too bad such a ****head had to earn cash from it.
I now handpick people myself to invest in and teach them the starters of trades.I invest time and isk and get my share back for it.Still not 100% safe but about the safest one can get in eve.
That reminds me, do you still own shares in my IPO or did you sell them off? |
flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc
Lazy is our middle name
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 17:04:00 -
[82]
Edited by: flakeys on 23/01/2009 17:05:38
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155
Originally by: flakeys
Originally by: oogs
I don't post very often at all, mainly because I've been burned by a scam but also because I found a better way to raise cash. My current thought is that if you're going to try and make an IPO, go to folks who know you first. MD is nice if you've already had something running for a while and want to start a second/third/fourth IPO, need a loan, etc. Just as long as you have a proven history. I figure this would weed out most people starting IPOs who don't have a clue about what they're doing.
Bout the same here.Invested in about 8 IPO's last year.When the last one turned out to be a scam and i still was on the profit-side of investments i pulled it all out and restarted my own trades with it.To be honest i was getting damn lazy and it was time something woke me up, too bad such a ****head had to earn cash from it.
I now handpick people myself to invest in and teach them the starters of trades.I invest time and isk and get my share back for it.Still not 100% safe but about the safest one can get in eve.
That reminds me, do you still own shares in my IPO or did you sell them off?
I sold my shares for the buy price.Can't remember to whom but if i recall right i posted it in your official IPO thread.I know your 'gambling'-IPO was my biggest investment so far in an IPO.The idea itself i really liked.
It's nice and easy extra isk , but risk vs reward is something i over estimated when i look back on my total invesments.What i got from a 6 bille total investment back then i can easily get in 1 day of work with not even 1/4th of the isk and that is totally without risk.
I won't say never but i don't see myself investing in any IPO any time soonish unless the idea or the OP are something i like too much to pass on.
|
MailDeadDrop
Globaltech Industries
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 17:20:00 -
[83]
Originally by: YouGotRipped
Let's get one thing straight, CCP will never do anything to prevent scamming or provide consequences for it.
Oh really? So CCP will never do anything to prevent scamming in character trades or provide consequences for it . . .OOPS! Looks like they did indeed. Well, CCP will surely never do anything to prevent scamming in GTCs sales or provide consequences for it . . . OOPS! Looks like they did there, too. It would appear that the only thing we got straight here is that your statements don't hold water.
MDD |
Astarte Nosferatu
Abrivianius Manufacturing Corporation
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 18:16:00 -
[84]
Originally by: MailDeadDrop
Originally by: YouGotRipped
Let's get one thing straight, CCP will never do anything to prevent scamming or provide consequences for it.
Oh really? So CCP will never do anything to prevent scamming in character trades or provide consequences for it . . .OOPS! Looks like they did indeed. Well, CCP will surely never do anything to prevent scamming in GTCs sales or provide consequences for it . . . OOPS! Looks like they did there, too. It would appear that the only thing we got straight here is that your statements don't hold water.
MDD
I think YGR is referring to scamming in game, with in game items. Theft, scamming, spying, it is what makes EvE, well, rock. As long as it is not a crime in real life like hacking or or stealing credit card numbers, etc..., CCP actually encourages it.
Yes, I'm selling some of my shares |
abraheam
Dirty Denizens
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 18:17:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Ulstan
I don't think you're quite grasping my point. I'm not interested in whether scamming is moral or whether people should do it or not.
I'm saying that the risk vs reward for scamming is fundamentally broken. High rewards. very low risk. If you succeed, you get billions and no harm can befall you. If you fail..uh..people don't send you their money and you can try again later.
Any very low risk high reward activity steadily increases in popularity until something is done about it, or it consumes the entire game.
While a wild lawless universe is appealing to many people, the idea of a consequence free universe usually isn't as much :p
What game mechanic forces you to give ISK to someone you dont know?
How can scamming consume anything other then a suckers ISK?
|
MailDeadDrop
Globaltech Industries
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 18:42:00 -
[86]
Edited by: MailDeadDrop on 23/01/2009 18:46:09
Originally by: abraheam
How can scamming consume anything other then a suckers ISK?
Scamming, at its current risk/reward ratio, could theoretically "consume" the IPO and bond markets ("consume" in the sense that they would cease to exist). That seems like a Bad Thing, but YMMV.
Edit: As a simple thought exercise, imagine that there existed a module that, once activated, guaranteed a win in PvP with no recourse for any opponent. And such a module was undetectable by ship scanners. Do you think that the existence of such a module would have a negative effect on PvP? And when users of the module said "nothing in game forces you to undock your ship", how would you react?
MDD |
flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc
Lazy is our middle name
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 19:11:00 -
[87]
Edited by: flakeys on 23/01/2009 19:14:21
Originally by: MailDeadDrop
As a simple thought exercise, imagine that there existed a module that, once activated, guaranteed a win in PvP with no recourse for any opponent. And such a module was undetectable by ship scanners. Do you think that the existence of such a module would have a negative effect on PvP? And when users of the module said "nothing in game forces you to undock your ship", how would you react?
MDD
No in your metaphore you are giving person X something person Y does not have.Anyone in eve can scam however so we are all on equall level.Asking CCP to do something against scams and such is just dumb imho.The only thing they need to do is try to make sure isk and rl cash don't mix up in any way , be it buying or selling isk with/for reall money.It'ss a game and all you can loose is pixels , don't ask others to hold your hands because you are too scared to loose those pixels wich you put at stake purely to gain even more profits/isk then you allready have.
You know the risk of an IPO/bond , you take the risk then don't come complaining when the **** hits the fan.Yes you have every right to be mad at the person who took your isk but asking CCP to interfere is something i don't want like.
|
abraheam
Dirty Denizens
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 19:16:00 -
[88]
Originally by: MailDeadDrop
Edited by: MailDeadDrop on 23/01/2009 18:46:09
Originally by: abraheam
How can scamming consume anything other then a suckers ISK?
Scamming, at its current risk/reward ratio, could theoretically "consume" the IPO and bond markets ("consume" in the sense that they would cease to exist). That seems like a Bad Thing, but YMMV.
Edit: As a simple thought exercise, imagine that there existed a module that, once activated, guaranteed a win in PvP with no recourse for any opponent. And such a module was undetectable by ship scanners. Do you think that the existence of such a module would have a negative effect on PvP? And when users of the module said "nothing in game forces you to undock your ship", how would you react?
MDD
I was playing Devils Advocate.
I dont agree that scamming effects the entire game, the scondary market yes, the whole game no.
As someone above stated there are many secure methods for all types of transactions between players. The advocates of the secondary market are asking for what I think is a large scale edition to the game from a development stand point, not just just a simple transaction interface. I felt there needed to be some clarification.
|
MailDeadDrop
Globaltech Industries
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 19:25:00 -
[89]
Edited by: MailDeadDrop on 23/01/2009 19:27:05
Originally by: flakeys
No in your metaphore you are giving person X something person Y does not have.
Nope. Assume the module is widely available, and the first person to activate it (in a given engagement) wins. Therefore, it is *precisely* like the scamming environment.
Originally by: abraheam
I dont agree that scamming effects the entire game, the scondary market yes, the whole game no.
Well, by that logic CCP should do nothing about the existing Sovereignty rules, as those only affect gameplay in 0.0 and not in the whole game.
MDD |
flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc
Lazy is our middle name
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 19:51:00 -
[90]
Originally by: MailDeadDrop
Edited by: MailDeadDrop on 23/01/2009 19:27:05
Originally by: flakeys
No in your metaphore you are giving person X something person Y does not have.
Nope. Assume the module is widely available, and the first person to activate it (in a given engagement) wins. Therefore, it is *precisely* like the scamming environment.
[
I really can't see your logic here.Look if someone is at a gate in 0.4 with a raven and tells my alt i can jump my main in in his freighter then i can either trust him or not.Now assume i jump in and he kills me should i ask CCP then to make killings in low-sec impossible?Should i be able to ask CCP to ban this person because he did not tell the truth.
You know in advance there is no security in these investments yet YOU choose to do it because YOU want even more isk then you allready have since YOU allready have more isk then you can manage/consume.
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |