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Avoiding SCAMS, lessons learned

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cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.21 14:05:00 - [1] Unfortunately like many of you I have lost money in one of the recent SCAMS. I invested 500M into Xabier bonds, so it looks like I am 400M ISK down on that. I am more annoyed with my self as it was my first investment that ended in SCAM since 2007. Unfortunately Xabier rise was too quick. Within 4 months from unknown he had too much money. So what did I learn, and how does this effect my investments? My personal investing rules: 1. Investments in new players asking for over 10B end in SCAM 50% of the time (3 of 6 in last year). Simple I don't invest in large IPO's for unknowns 2. Never vote for Bond expansions. All bonds should be closed before a new bond is launched. NO Bond expansions. 3. No IPO expansions within 6 months unless I have a history with the CEO 4. Never, Ever, Ever do business with a character that has been involved with character selling 5. The only audits I will accept are Kazuo, Shar or a member of EBank staff. You want my money get audited by one of the above 6. Only lockdown I will accept is from very respected players.
Rain Goddess	Posted - 2009.01.21 14:25:00 - [2] Edited by: Rain Goddess on 21/01/2009 14:25:54 I lost 12.7 billion (initial investment)....11.2 billion minus dividend payments! I think i'm done with market discussion and as soon as my cash dries up...perhaps the game. I learned nothing! As always, the human condition (that which is devised to hurt each other)sours the soul!
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.01.21 14:55:00 - [3] By your rules, you would have called me a scam. Just use common sense. I think people learned that when Wylker ran away with a considerable sum of ISK.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2009.01.21 14:59:00 - [4] I'm surprised that you haven't taken to auditing people yourself, cosmo. I think #4 is a bit harsh, especially in the case of people who have a large number of alts. There's certainly going to be increased scrutiny of expansions from now on, and I wouldn't be surprised if that meant multiple audits of the same people. --- Can't afford that BPO? Look here. 20:1 mineral compression The EVE f@h team
CornerStoner	Posted - 2009.01.21 15:17:00 - [5] CRTF: -200mil Xabier: -200mil Who cares about the dividends? It's a 400mil loss as far as I'm concerned. While not a crushing blow to my bottom line the collusion involved with these two scams will be a fatal blow to any investents by me in public IPOs/Bonds. I lost faith in MD a few months ago anyways. Dbank unwittingly being a victim of Xabier will also damage the potential of it's own operations and, to a lesser extent, other loan based operations. With the current percentage of scams mounting it seems foolish and naive to consider any IPO/Bond that doesn't meet some pretty extreme standards. (Read: keep your ISK in your wallet if you want to see it again) Only a few (5) public and private invesments I have would ever see more ISK from me.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.01.21 15:24:00 - [6] Originally by: cosmoray 5. The only audits I will accept are Kazuo, Shar or a member of EBank staff. You want my money get audited by one of the above You've invested in StardustCEO's bond that was audited by me and I'm not in the list? sniff
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.21 15:28:00 - [7] Originally by: Brock Nelson Originally by: cosmoray 5. The only audits I will accept are Kazuo, Shar or a member of EBank staff. You want my money get audited by one of the above You've invested in StardustCEO's bond that was audited by me and I'm not in the list? sniff these are my new standards as of now
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.21 15:35:00 - [8] I think the lesson we can all learn is that be wary of quick expansions. Last month after the payout for Xabier, I had it in my gut to sell of what I had because it just felt to quick with everything he was getting access to. Despite a personal wealth in the hundreds of billions, verified by giving the then current CEO of my current corporation, it took 6 months before I even had hanger access for example. And another 3 after that before I had my own wallet division. Now after the length of time I have access to the entire kitty, but the point here is I think we lost our patience somewhere. I think many of us have gotten expansion crazy, and tend to automatically assume that hey, he's paid a few divs so far, thats gotta be on the up and up.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2009.01.21 15:51:00 - [9] I have to say, currently with my level of confidence, I would not accept audits by anyone on Cosmo's list. (Yes including you Brock, hell including myself) I would say a good standard is dual audit. A fine example would be an audit by Kazuo and myself. Two different styles, no business connections between us, and little chance of collusion due to slight personality conflicts between us. Right now, imho, identity is becoming far too malleable a concept. So much so I find I have little trust for many here at MD. Of course the truth is I have a large dose of distrust for all you bastards but that should come as no surprise.
Ambo State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.01.21 15:55:00 - [10] Reithe taught us the problem with rapid expansions about a year ago. People said then that from now on there would be increased scrutiny of expansions and IPOs in general. It's just the same stuff going around again. The market will recover and this won't be the last scam in MD.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.21 15:59:00 - [11] Originally by: Shar Tegral I have to say, currently with my level of confidence, I would not accept audits by anyone on Cosmo's list. (Yes including you Brock, hell including myself) I would say a good standard is dual audit. A fine example would be an audit by Kazuo and myself. Two different styles, no business connections between us, and little chance of collusion due to slight personality conflicts between us. I think I would like to propose that this become the stock and staple from now on. So much so that Im thinking about writing up an actual business proposal for it. An auditing group that performs the audits, and then contracts out to a third party a final verification. All requiring payment in some form or another.
nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2009.01.21 16:09:00 - [12] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Shar Tegral I have to say, currently with my level of confidence, I would not accept audits by anyone on Cosmo's list. (Yes including you Brock, hell including myself) I would say a good standard is dual audit. A fine example would be an audit by Kazuo and myself. Two different styles, no business connections between us, and little chance of collusion due to slight personality conflicts between us. I think I would like to propose that this become the stock and staple from now on. So much so that Im thinking about writing up an actual business proposal for it. An auditing group that performs the audits, and then contracts out to a third party a final verification. All requiring payment in some form or another. The problem really is no amount of auditing can prevent someone from transforming from legit to scam, because there's no repercussions. Rep is shot? Buy a new character. It will help some though, but we still come back to the old tried and true 'if it smells fishy, it's probably fish'. True successful investors are built from that instinctual feeling when something smells like a scam. --------------------
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.21 16:38:00 - [13] People need to stop believing an audit will guarantee an operation. It won't. In most cases a scam can be avoided when securities are locked down with trusted parties. Kazuo currently has a couple of operations running under him with locked down stocks and they don't have a single problem. When audits are done they need specific provisions that ALL data will be provided to the public in the event of a scam. Name of main, API keys, everything. People also need to stop investing willy nilly into every investment that shows up. Someone should have to build up trust and prove themselves to the investor not have funds thrown onto them. As has been mentioned above, rapid expansion should also come with large warning bells. I have been in the public sector here for years, almost 4 now. I have been running my own IPO's, Bonds, Bank etc for about 3.5 years of that. Even now after all this time I handle maybe 300-350b of EBANK funds (ie what I could run off with). That's only double what Xabier left with after a few months in the public sector. We see it time and time again with one man operations failing. Almost every operation that exceeds 50b with one man at the helm has failed. There are few exceptions, maybe only one, Block. We need to get back to the times of bpo's being locked down as securities or collateral being provided. EBANK follow this procedure for our loans, and whilst collateral often only reaches 80% our loss rate is something like 15b out of close to 1 trillion isk in loans. A mere 1.5%. Not everyone can provide full collateral but ask yourself this. Why would you give money to someone that is 5x or 50x their own net worth? If they couldn't earn it on their own you are placing a huge risk doing so. This may sounds hypocritical as my personal wealth is maybe 10-20b at most but my personal wealth is only so low as I use about 95% of my time in Eve working for these public operations rather than my own cash acquisition. Anyway things need to tighten up considerably. As I have said countless times an audit should be one step in a process when considering investment not the determining factor. I generally laugh when I see a new IPO with everyone saying "reserve pending audit". These people aren't using Eve-search to check character history, checking with previous CEO's for character references or doing anything to secure their investment. They sit back and wait for someone else to do the work and then complain when they lose all their cash. As long as people keep throwing money at these scammers the scammers will keep coming. IPO scamming is probably the absolute best form of isk generation in Eve when considering time vs yield. I look at EVERY new ipo as a scam. I use a guilty until proven innocent approach. It's not fair for the honest people but it's a necessary evil. I invest in others based on long term results and their financial exposure, their level of activeness both in game and out. Let's use LadyOfWrath as an example. The LoW bonds don't come very often. However when they do I always jump on them. LadyOfWrath has proven performance specifically based on his sell orders forum post, hundreds of happy customers and multiple pages of advertising spanning a good year. This shows a working business. This business relies on good working practices and fast response times to customers demands. In the LoW example it would likely be more damaging for him to scam than to stay legitimate due to his large number of business and customer base. Finally, posting. I never invest in someone who doesn't post on these forums. It shows their only interest is gathering my money. Someone who doesn't care about the secondary market but still floats a bond is far more likely to also not care about scamming. This post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, more meant to be a general reason I see why people are watching their cash go up in smoke.
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.21 16:40:00 - [14] Originally by: Rain Goddess I lost 12.7 billion (initial investment)....11.2 billion minus dividend payments! Had those billions been in EBANK the interest wouldn't have been as good but the principle would still remain. Putting such a large amount of funds into someone with a very short track history in MD was unfortunately a very silly move. Hopefully you can take from what I have posted above and use it to make smarter decisions in the future.
Damien Jax Industrial Research College Ltd	Posted - 2009.01.21 16:42:00 - [15] I'm in favor of multiple auditors and have stated on the ebank forums that these auditors need to communicate with one another. Alas, no amount of auditing can prevent idiots from jumping into an investment. There's too much idle isk around MD right now which is why we've lost our patience. Basically, if you aren't the first to reserve, then you'll miss out (like I did with Brock's offerings). So people throw around isk without doing due diligence. I suppose this is the investor's fault, but it hurts the community as a whole everytime someone scams.
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.21 16:46:00 - [16] Pick your investments. Who cares if you miss one good one. It's a LOT easier to lose money on an investment than it is to earn it.
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.21 16:50:00 - [17] This is completely unrelated to Eve but the same points can be reverse engineered to consider when making investments. http://www.webuildpages.com/blog/uncategorized/gain-trust-and-influence-people/ Be aware a scammer and social engineer (ie Riethe) can also use this against you so it shouldn't be an absolute guide.
Nikumo Nikado	Posted - 2009.01.21 17:17:00 - [18] Originally by: cosmoray Unfortunately like many of you I have lost money in one of the recent SCAMS. I invested 500M into Xabier bonds, so it looks like I am 400M ISK down on that. I am more annoyed with my self as it was my first investment that ended in SCAM since 2007. Unfortunately Xabier rise was too quick. Within 4 months from unknown he had too much money. So what did I learn, and how does this effect my investments? My personal investing rules: I couldn't help smiling when I read the following - for each of these, there is a counter, a scammer can work around each of your "safeguards" and make away with your money - not to mention how easy it will be for someone who passes your tests to still scam you and others. Further it is stupid to believe that you are now safer from scams having put these down here. Would a wise investor disclose their personal investment strategy to scammers at the forum as outlined below? Answer that honestly and let me know where cosmoray stands on a scale of 1-10 in smart investing! Originally by: cosmoray 1. Investments in new players asking for over 10B end in SCAM 50% of the time (3 of 6 in last year). Simple I don't invest in large IPO's for unknowns. This was not a "large" investment in an "unknown". The person just happened to be vetted by someone you trusted, who turned out to be scamming you. To REALLY prevent this, you should stop investing in anyone at all, since the next person whose word you trust could be setting you up for a scam too. Trust no-one, invest in no one else. Just like you cannot make your 10B into 20B yourself, you will run out of people to invest in if you only invest in people you have already invested in - zero investing growth. Originally by: cosmoray 2. Never vote for Bond expansions. All bonds should be closed before a new bond is launched. NO Bond expansions. 3. No IPO expansions within 6 months unless I have a history with the CEO Here comes the "my first bond was for 5B, this next one is for 20B scam." Investors will lose the same 15B as if they had invested in the 5B bond and its 10B expansion. Also, on an individual basis, you will lose more anyways - you invest in the first bond, and it returns what was promised. So the next time around, you "trust" the bond issuer and invest more than you would have invested in an expansion (since you really really trust this issuer). Same old trust issue, and random limit - why 6 months, why not 12 months, or 24 months? Can't scammers pick 9 months and get by your mental filter and still scam you? Originally by: cosmoray 4. Never, Ever, Ever do business with a character that has been involved with character selling You are wise enough to not state why! What if the IPO or bond is for a character reseller? That is a profitable business, I gather. So an IPO that would buy GTCs with ISK, train "niche" chars using the GTCs and sell the chars for a profit - that sounds like a business plan to me. Also, how would you ever know how many alts a person has on his/her other accounts - its not like we roll with just one account. Originally by: cosmoray 5. The only audits I will accept are Kazuo, Shar or a member of EBank staff. You want my money get audited by one of the above 6. Only lockdown I will accept is from very respected players. 5 - Nice choice. Kazuo is none the wiser and lost money in this same recent scam. Dbank is less-than-perfect, but Ebank, surely, is 100% above board. Xabier was in Dbank's halls, but there are no Xabiers in Ebank, for sure. 6 - Ah, if only you could define respected, or have a metric for who you respect. I, for one, respect your investing acumen far less than I did before. You are just as clueless as anyone else, and what's worse, you actually make out like you have a clue and instill false confidence in other invest
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.21 17:23:00 - [19] Originally by: Nikumo Nikado but Ebank, surely, is 100% above board. Yeh we are pretty awesome I agree thanks.
MailDeadDrop Globaltech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.21 17:37:00 - [20] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I think I would like to propose that this [team audits] become the stock and staple from now on. So much so that I'm thinking about writing up an actual business proposal for it. An auditing group that performs the audits, and then contracts out to a third party a final verification. All requiring payment in some form or another. Kazzac, when writing this up may I suggest that you elaborate on what "audit" means, e.g.: This audit is a "point-in-time" review of: wallet journal & transaction entries (both individual and corporate) forum postings on Eve-online or other websites skills assets (both individual and corporate) software The review will be of the issuer and involved alts. The intent of this review is to expose evidence of: the issuer's trading competence (if the issuer's trading is applicable to the offering) the issuer's manufacturing competence (if the issuer's manufacturing is applicable to the offering) the issuer's programming competence (if the issuer's programming is applicable to the offering) a working relationship or conspiracy with other characters of interest (including touts) intent to defraud due diligence on behalf of issuer statements materially different than what the issuer states in the offering character purchases, sales, trades, or other exchanges (such activity may indicate that the character is under the control of a different player) In addition to audit, should you also include "business plan evaluation"? By that, i mean more of a subjective review of how likely the issue's goals will be met, how effective the issuer's contingency plans are, and any aspects of the business plan which may be inadequately addressed in the plan. While I strongly consider such feedback very useful, I, personally, don't feel that they fit neatly under the "audit" rubric. MDD Jump Clones: 8M and NO corp switching
Astarte Nosferatu Abrivianius Manufacturing Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.21 17:43:00 - [21] 'Trusted' means just that, you trust someone not to walk away with your isk. Nothing prevents auditors, trusted MD regulars, even people like Chribba or yes, you Ricdic, to scam. As long as we have to trust people instead of game mechanics, we are bound to get burned. If you want to play scam-free, don't give other people your isk, period. Only reason I haven't started an IPO or bond of whatever yet, I because I know once I would get 100bil+, I would be very tempted to keep it and give you all a "Thanks for all the fish!" quote. Social engineering and manipulation isn't all that hard, you just have to have the time and energy to live up to people's expectations for a couple of months. I'm surprised this hasn't happened more often as everyone with a bit of a brain could pull it off. Yes, I'm selling some of my shares
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.21 17:48:00 - [22] Originally by: Ricdic Originally by: Nikumo Nikado but Ebank, surely, is 100% above board. Yeh we are pretty awesome I agree thanks. lol shaddap ric! We are extremely lucky with the quality and talent in EBANK's team, but equally, we aren't 100% perfect, but we do try to be as good as is pragmatically possible. Also, just to set the record straight, Block does have a board too.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.21 17:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Nikumo Nikado STUFF To answer your point. 1. Xabier is not inculded in the metric for unknowns scamming after getting 10B +. I actually credited Xabier with some history and wasn't a total unknown when he completed his big project. It is Evn7298 who is the latest in the unknown over 10B. The other 2 were last year. 2. Character reselling. You can never tell who is really talking when a character has been sold. The above two points kept me away from Evn7298. Yes I screwed up with Xabier. He did a good job making a small name for himself, and earnt the big bucks. The rules I posted were thing that would cause me to immediately rule out an investment. Most of my decision is based upon: 1. The CEO's answers to my questions 2. maturity of OP 3. Background checks, either Eve-search or checking the corp employment history and talking to ex-corp mates along with some other stuff 4. has a history in MD Yep Xabier beat most of my checks, should not have invested in the fast expansion, that was my mistake. Still currently only 1 scam in over my last 20 investments. Don't want to make it a habit.
MailDeadDrop Globaltech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.21 18:02:00 - [24] Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu 'Trusted' means just that, you trust someone not to walk away with your isk. Actually, I think that your definition is a common oversimplification. 'Trusted' has degrees -- some very few people you trust to a great degree, the vast majority of people you trust substantially less. So the question often stated is "do you trust this person?" when in fact the real question is (or should be) "do you trust this person to this degree?" Chribba is often cited as the gold standard of trust in Eve (deservedly so IMHO). But if faced with the possibility of owning all of the rare ships in Eve, would he cave? I can't say no. Still, I think no less of him for his human frailties. MDD
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.21 18:05:00 - [25] Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu Nothing prevents ... or yes, you Ricdic, to scam. I will nevar scam, trust me.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.21 18:07:00 - [26] Originally by: MailDeadDrop Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I think I would like to propose that this [team audits] become the stock and staple from now on. So much so that I'm thinking about writing up an actual business proposal for it. An auditing group that performs the audits, and then contracts out to a third party a final verification. All requiring payment in some form or another. Kazzac, when writing this up may I suggest that you elaborate on what "audit" means, e.g.: This audit is a "point-in-time" review of: wallet journal & transaction entries (both individual and corporate) forum postings on Eve-online or other websites skills assets (both individual and corporate) software The review will be of the issuer and involved alts. The intent of this review is to expose evidence of: the issuer's trading competence (if the issuer's trading is applicable to the offering) the issuer's manufacturing competence (if the issuer's manufacturing is applicable to the offering) the issuer's programming competence (if the issuer's programming is applicable to the offering) a working relationship or conspiracy with other characters of interest (including touts) intent to defraud due diligence on behalf of issuer statements materially different than what the issuer states in the offering character purchases, sales, trades, or other exchanges (such activity may indicate that the character is under the control of a different player) In addition to audit, should you also include "business plan evaluation"? By that, i mean more of a subjective review of how likely the issue's goals will be met, how effective the issuer's contingency plans are, and any aspects of the business plan which may be inadequately addressed in the plan. While I strongly consider such feedback very useful, I, personally, don't feel that they fit neatly under the "audit" rubric. MDD Thats more or less what I was thinking. Information verification is only one aspect of analyzing an offering, actual plan inspection is the other. I think moving towards a model of only paid audits accepted would be a good thing as well. The fee could be negotiated since it would obviously depend on the work being done, but it would need to be paid to everyone involved in the process.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.21 18:09:00 - [27] And I forgot to add, that audits wouldn't save us from this style of scam. This was straight social engineering at its finest. As Ricdic mentioned, moving more towards any productions offerings being locked down by multiple parties, avoiding rapid expansions without full payout of original offering, etc... would have helped mitigate the loss here.
MilowFV Echo Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.01.21 18:10:00 - [28] Cosmoray rules aren't to stop her/him from getting scam they are just to limit the risk of it happening. Short of not investing there is no way to stop all scams from happening in Eve. I get as annoyed as the next person when I get scam, but I look at it like getting suicide ganked or losing a ship and move on. I got hook by Xaiber rep and invest 100 million ISK in whats his name expansion. I felt screwed though when I saw the 12 Billion or what ever it was he want for a mothership BPC he had, but it was a bit late by then. I personally think Cosmoray rule of thumb for investing will help, but I also feel that a year from now someone will put in the time and effort to make another hugh IPO scam, as the longer the MD forum goes with out getting scammed the more risk people seem to be willing to take.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.01.21 18:11:00 - [29] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 21/01/2009 18:15:33 Originally by: Ambo Reithe taught us the problem with rapid expansions about a year ago. People said then that from now on there would be increased scrutiny of expansions and IPOs in general. It's just the same stuff going around again. The market will recover and this won't be the last scam in MD. Rite... so how much did you lose this time? It is at least laughable that despite the community's best efforts, someone has managed to scam again, and bigtime.
Ambo State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.01.21 18:15:00 - [30] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 21/01/2009 18:12:48 Originally by: Ambo Reithe taught us the problem with rapid expansions about a year ago. People said then that from now on there would be increased scrutiny of expansions and IPOs in general. It's just the same stuff going around again. The market will recover and this won't be the last scam in MD. Rite... so how much did you lose this time? It is at least laughable that despite the community's best efforts, someone has managed to scam again, and bigtime. lol, nothing on this one. I pick my investments far too carefully these days. Tbh I did regard Xabier as trustworthy, though I never properly looked into his history.
F90OEX F9X	Posted - 2009.01.21 18:21:00 - [31] You play with fire to much, your going to get burned. Same logic applies here
Raaz Satik	Posted - 2009.01.21 18:23:00 - [32] Originally by: Ricdic People also need to stop investing willy nilly into every investment that shows up. Someone should have to build up trust and prove themselves to the investor not have funds thrown onto them. Available funds far exceeds the amount of good investments. This means that good investments get bid to silly levels and even bad investments get bought up. Sure you can put all your money in one basket (say EBank), but we all know one of the primary rules of investing is diversification (ideally in non-correlated assets). Originally by: Ricdic I generally laugh when I see a new IPO with everyone saying "reserve pending audit". These people aren't using Eve-search to check character history, checking with previous CEO's for character references or doing anything to secure their investment. They sit back and wait for someone else to do the work and then complain when they lose all their cash. If you only check the forums once a day chances are you will miss almost every good investment opportunity because they sell out so quickly. Even if you plan to do some research, you know need to get in the queue first, otherwise there probably won't be anything left by the time you are ready.
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.01.21 18:24:00 - [33] I have still lost more money to Fury Bank than all 'scams' combined. I don't know whether Fury Bank was technically a 'scam' or not, but at any rate, the money is gone. To me, I am now suspicious of any 'lone ranger' style investments where there isn't a group of people who can handle things if someone suffers a severe bout of dropping-off-the-face-of-the-planet syndrome. It may not fall under the set of scam avoidance rules Cosmoray outlines above, but it's definitely part of my risk avoidance rules.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.21 18:25:00 - [34] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 21/01/2009 18:15:33 Originally by: Ambo Reithe taught us the problem with rapid expansions about a year ago. People said then that from now on there would be increased scrutiny of expansions and IPOs in general. It's just the same stuff going around again. The market will recover and this won't be the last scam in MD. Rite... so how much did you lose this time? It is at least laughable that despite the community's best efforts, someone has managed to scam again, and bigtime. Xabier did run as close to a perfect SCAM as I have seen. The interesting thing to know was... 1. did he start off legit and then couldn't be bothered to return the cash or saw the size of his wallet and run 2. set up the SCAM from the very start I hope he would post and say. hats off to him if its scenario 2. At least six months of work, and a huge amount of time to pull off a huge scam. I don't think I could be bothered to put the effort in. Everyone plays the game in their own way!
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.01.21 18:44:00 - [35] Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 21/01/2009 18:15:33 Originally by: Ambo Reithe taught us the problem with rapid expansions about a year ago. People said then that from now on there would be increased scrutiny of expansions and IPOs in general. It's just the same stuff going around again. The market will recover and this won't be the last scam in MD. Rite... so how much did you lose this time? It is at least laughable that despite the community's best efforts, someone has managed to scam again, and bigtime. This is because there is really no downside to scamming, as long as you can have multiple chars/accounts. The reputation of one of your alt accounts being trashed doesn't impact your main in the slightest, so the motivation for people to stay 'above board' really isn't there. I suspect Darkfall (if it ever comes out) will suffer from the same problems. In fact, any game where the GM's don't take an active stance against scamming will. The sandbox idea is a good and compelling one, but alt accounts allow you to not have to live with the consequences of your actions at all. And there is no way to enforce any kind of 'only one account per person' rule, so I don't see any easy solution to this.
nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2009.01.21 18:52:00 - [36] Originally by: Ricdic http://www.webuildpages.com/blog/uncategorized/gain-trust-and-influence-people/http://www.webuildpages.com/blog/uncategorized/gain-trust-and-influence-people/[/url Truth and Corporate Blogs. Oxymoron right there. No offense intended to Ric for sure. I have respect for his intelligence and EBANK (not that I matter hehe). The article works well, but I will never trust a corporation. Money drives every corporate decision, and it is almost never in the corporation's best monetary interest to be honest about problems. You design how to deal with it first, your exit strategy, and after the decisions have already been made you go public, at the same time as executing the exit strategy. So corporate blogs are actually a scam in themselves. Overall though I like the article for a personal trust thing.
nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2009.01.21 18:56:00 - [37] Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 21/01/2009 18:48:59 Edited by: Ulstan on 21/01/2009 18:48:02 Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 21/01/2009 18:15:33 Originally by: Ambo Reithe taught us the problem with rapid expansions about a year ago. People said then that from now on there would be increased scrutiny of expansions and IPOs in general. It's just the same stuff going around again. The market will recover and this won't be the last scam in MD. Rite... so how much did you lose this time? It is at least laughable that despite the community's best efforts, someone has managed to scam again, and bigtime. This is because there is really no downside to scamming, as long as you can have multiple chars/accounts. The reputation of one of your alt accounts being trashed doesn't impact your main in the slightest, so the motivation for people to stay 'above board' really isn't there. I suspect Darkfall (if it ever comes out) will suffer from the same problems. In fact, any game where the GM's don't take an active stance against scamming will. The sandbox idea is a good and compelling one, but alt accounts allow you to not have to live with the consequences of your actions at all. And there is no way to enforce any kind of 'only one account per person' rule, so I don't see any easy solution to this. I suspect the 'consequence free scamming' model will not live forever, as all MMO's tend to require that your actions carry consequences in order to survive. I mean, once the player population at large learns they can scam with no risk, well, the jig is going to be up :p I imagine that in a few more years MMO players will simply not accept the formulation "Well you just have to trust the other guy and you have no means of recourse whatsoever if he breaks that trust" and will demand built in methods of ensuring security. I've heard that soon scams in games will be considered a RL crime, since the in-game money is used to convert to real life money. More and more games sell items for real cash, so it makes sense. Also, there's a big draw on a guy to scam after the bond or IPO is about to close. He's done his business. Everyone's gotten their divvies. He can return the cash or just keep it.
Fearghan	Posted - 2009.01.21 19:02:00 - [38] Originally by: nether void I've heard that soon scams in games will be considered a RL crime, since the in-game money is used to convert to real life money. More and more games sell items for real cash, so it makes sense. This will be a legal nightmare, as the servers for this game live in CCPland - this would technically be a interstate commerce crime, which implies FBI here in the states. I'm not completely sure, but I'm fairly positive that if I called my local FBI field office and complained about someone scamming me out of a billion isk (some $35 dollars on the isk market) they'd laugh at me.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.01.21 19:09:00 - [39] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 21/01/2009 19:19:10 Originally by: nether void I've heard that soon scams in games will be considered a RL crime, since the in-game money is used to convert to real life money. More and more games sell items for real cash, so it makes sense. Nonsense. Isk has no value outside of this game. A more logical course would be to take legal action against isk selling for RL cash but this is laughable as well. All that CCP can do is ban the offenders.
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.21 19:18:00 - [40] Originally by: Raaz Satik If you only check the forums once a day chances are you will miss almost every good investment opportunity because they sell out so quickly. And who's fault would this be? Check the forums more often? If you have ever seen the real world stock market they don't wait until you are available before posting their offers/updates etc. Its why a lot of full time investors suffer depression and various fatigue related illnesses. Sleep or pop down to the shops at the wrong time and you could lose a large chunk of your portfolio. If you see a missile launcher you can buy for 50m here that normally sells for 500m do you think it's unfair that the dude who wasn't sleeping got that missile launcher before you did? Its standard "early bird gets the worm" principle and it applies to almost everything in the world. Those who go shopping in the mornings get the fresh fruit on the top of the stack whilst those who go in the evenings get the bruised, dropped, major manhandled leftovers.
MailDeadDrop Globaltech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.21 19:21:00 - [41] Originally by: Ulstan This is because there is really no downside to scamming, as long as you can have multiple chars/accounts. The reputation of one of your alt accounts being trashed doesn't impact your main in the slightest, so the motivation for people to stay 'above board' really isn't there. I suspect Darkfall (if it ever comes out) will suffer from the same problems. In fact, any game where the GM's don't take an active stance against scamming will. The sandbox idea is a good and compelling one, but alt accounts allow you to not have to live with the consequences of your actions at all. And there is no way to enforce any kind of 'only one account per person' rule, so I don't see any easy solution to this. I suspect the 'consequence free scamming' model will not live forever, as all MMO's tend to require that your actions carry consequences in order to survive. I mean, once the player population at large learns they can scam with no risk, well, the jig is going to be up :p I imagine that in a few more years MMO players will simply not accept the formulation "Well you just have to trust the other guy and you have no means of recourse whatsoever if he breaks that trust" and will demand built in methods of ensuring security. I simultaneously agree and disagree with you, on different aspects. But I'll take your conclusion first: I disagree that we must have "built-in methods of ensuring security". I believe that we simply need more diverse mechanisms of retribution. Eve needs a civil justice system. The investors in [CRTF] should be able to bring civil suit against evn7289. The judicial system should have judicial discovery access to evn7289's data and the power to compel the SCC to freeze or transfer ISK from his wallet and assets from his hangars. MDD
Dawts Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2009.01.21 19:25:00 - [42] Edited by: Dawts on 21/01/2009 19:26:16 Originally by: nether void Edited by: nether void on 21/01/2009 18:56:47 Originally by: Ulstan Edited out the pyramid of quote death I've heard that soon scams in games will be considered a RL crime, since the in-game money is used to convert to real life money. More and more games sell items for real cash, so it makes sense. Also, there's a big draw on a guy to scam after the bond or IPO is about to close. He's done his business. Everyone's gotten their divvies. He can return the cash or just keep it. Shouldn't it be RL money converted to IG money? In that case the IG money actually belongs to CCP and it no longer contains any value outside of the game, I don't think that it's a very strong case, but thats just my opinion, and I'm not a lawyer so who knows with the legal system the way it is.
Sophie Daigneau CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.21 19:45:00 - [43] Edited by: Sophie Daigneau on 21/01/2009 19:45:02 You forgot to mention don't invest with Goons under any circumstance.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.01.21 20:14:00 - [44] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 21/01/2009 20:14:19 Originally by: Sophie Daigneau You forgot to mention don't invest with Goons under any circumstance. That too.
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2009.01.21 20:30:00 - [45] Truth be told, a lot of these scams set off warning lights to those of us that do spend a lot of time on these forums each day. I can't speak for others but I know that around the time that we had an influx of new people coming on and throwing around the term "market elites" I stopped responding as much as I used to because I simply got tired of it. I'm not a market elite, but when I would point out something that looked suspicious I was called a "market elite" and that I needed to give people a chance and let them prove themselves. IMO, these recent scams were pulled off at the perfect time when the "market regulars" were not responding and for the most part avoiding trying to be helpful(even if in a rude or mean tone) due to the fact that for a couple of weeks they couldn't say anything without being called "market elites" and then were bad-mouthed. My 2 cents. Oh and I didn't lose anything to these scams in case anyone was wondering. Quote: Ricdic (about starting ebank, July 2007): Think of it as a miniature EIB done right. I cannot see this getting anywhere near 700b any time in the future tbh.
Raaz Satik	Posted - 2009.01.21 21:03:00 - [46] Originally by: Ricdic Originally by: Raaz Satik If you only check the forums once a day chances are you will miss almost every good investment opportunity because they sell out so quickly. And who's fault would this be? Check the forums more often? If you have ever seen the real world stock market they don't wait until you are available before posting their offers/updates etc. Actually they do. IPOs are announced weeks before the actual issuance and are not sold on a first come first served basis. Earnings are more often than not issued after the market closes so that people have time to digest them before the stock reopens 12 hours later. Additionally RL many markets are not 7x24 like EVE. Originally by: Ricdic If you see a missile launcher you can buy for 50m here that normally sells for 500m do you think it's unfair that the dude who wasn't sleeping got that missile launcher before you did? Its standard "early bird gets the worm" principle. I'm not claiming its unfair in any of this, I'm just making an observation. I agree with your early bird analogy, I was just pointing out that one of the big reasons 'reserve pending audit' (which was your original point) happens is that it gets them a "early bird" spot in the queue, while buying them time to research/see what happens. They have nothing to lose. If they later decide to back out for whatever reason, there is no consequence to them pulling their bid.
Nikumo Nikado	Posted - 2009.01.21 21:16:00 - [47] Originally by: Ricdic Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu Nothing prevents ... or yes, you Ricdic, to scam. I will nevar scam, trust me. To Ricdic's credit, I will say here now that for when Ricdic DOES scam, he can honestly say he never said " I will never scam". Spelling mistakes for the win!
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company	Posted - 2009.01.21 23:09:00 - [48] Originally by: Sophie Daigneau Edited by: Sophie Daigneau on 21/01/2009 19:45:02 You forgot to mention don't invest with Goons under any circumstance. Hey Sophie =D
Kakalwe Brunel	Posted - 2009.01.21 23:26:00 - [49] Edited by: Kakalwe Brunel on 21/01/2009 23:26:48 I think there is a big problem with this 'lessons learned' thread. The lessons will never be learned because of the regular influx of new people. Although some MD regulars get burned, the majority of IPO invesors are new to the forum. When the next scammer comes along his target market will be people who have never heard of Xabier, never mind Reithe
Loney CyberDyne R-D	Posted - 2009.01.22 00:27:00 - [50] Edited by: Loney on 22/01/2009 00:27:40 -edit fix important typo Originally by: Kakalwe Brunel The lessons will never be learned because of the regular influx of new people. I dissagree. Lessons will be learned, but as you said everyone has to learn the lesson for themselves (including the newbs). Yes, Even I got scamed once... many years ago (about 3.5 years) out of 23 billion isk (probally equivalient to 2.3 trillion in todays market). At the time it was only 1/3 of my wealth, but it hit me hard, and almost made me quit eve (took a 2 month break though). Morale of the story is... there is nothing you can do to prevent scaming, though you can minimize it by investing ONLY a protion of your wealth in trustworth people (such as myself, lol, Seriously though!). Check us out!
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.01.22 04:55:00 - [51] Originally by: Loney I dissagree. Lessons will be learned, but as you said everyone has to learn the lesson for themselves (including the newbs). I disagree. Look at world history. Those damn fools playing real life NEVER learns. Leave alone EVE. I have been here long enough to see a number of scams going down. Do we ever learn? No, we don't.
Kitchie Gallente Kitchie's Logistics and Marketing Corp	Posted - 2009.01.22 05:40:00 - [52] I think everyone who comes into MD and invests in a bond or IPO knows that a scam is possible, even the newbs. But everyone who walks into a casino also knows that the odds are stacked against them and they still hand over their money in the hope/belief that they are better or can beat the system. I think a lot of people here want the thrill of picking a "Win" investment, knowing that a scam is possible but believing that they've used whatever smarts they believe they have to have chosen the right one. The risk of being scammed, or burnout or whatever, is actually what gives the thrill, otherwise people would just plop their surplus ISK into EBANK or DBANK and sleep nights Even the vets here are proud of their records and oft quote how rarely they've been scammed, it's considered a skill but at the end of the day, it's still gambling and that's where the fun lies - beat the scammers!
Raskaloth	Posted - 2009.01.22 07:03:00 - [53] Edited by: Raskaloth on 22/01/2009 07:04:06 Originally by: LaVista Vista I disagree. Look at world history. Those damn fools playing real life NEVER learns. Leave alone EVE. I have been here long enough to see a number of scams going down. Do we ever learn? No, we don't. I would have to agree that it is doubtful that the community will ever learn. Hell, I even hope the community will never learn. Too tight investment criteria would most likely kill the secondary market in EVE. Yes, there are many shady investments floating around MD these days, many of them either not so well planned or plain out scam attempts. I personally let any new investment offer run its course for page or two of MD regular grilling before making any decisions about investing. Though I feel I have some grasp on what is happening on the market in general, I know there are several more experienced people around, who have a good grasp on what will work and what wont. But if the criteria on investment on the behalf of people who are trusted and their opinions held in high regard tightens as much as it would seem, soon there wont be anyone left to invest, except on low return established businesses. And this will be, in my opinion the end of working secondary market. Any new venture has it's risks, magnified in EVE by the fact that we have no "actual" means of punishing the person failing us, due to multiple accounts etc. But still, as in the real stock market, diversifying is gold. Sure, I would prefer to invest on people such as PP, cosmo and LoW if possible and they offered similar returns as some of the new investments but they dont have to. So maybe Ill invest most of my iskies on "safe" ventures like this but I also keep amount I am willing to lose, due to failure or scam to more profitable, new ventures. Unless people are willing to do the same in the future, is there any secondary market left to speak of? New offers by large known entities will still fill out without question, but it doesnt help the market grow per se, just keeps same money spinning around not creating new opportunities for new, possible even legit players. Hmm, wall of text.. maybe Ill stop my rant now. -Rask
Dagda Morr Seppuku Warriors	Posted - 2009.01.22 11:01:00 - [54] I got caught in the Citadel scam, only 100m so I'm not down as much as most people. The biggest thing I've learned is that I have been a lazy investor and as such have been burned. I saw good investments pass me by so I jumped on the firt that came along, "ooked"reasonable and had an audit. Insufficient research on my part and acting like a lemming is the real problem. Ignoring advice of people who are far better at this than me has cost me, yet another lesson learned. It's all well and good taking a punt on an unkown against general opinion - but not for the amounts that some have asked for. So all in all, be cautious, do my own research is what I've learnt
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.22 12:08:00 - [55] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Loney I dissagree. Lessons will be learned, but as you said everyone has to learn the lesson for themselves (including the newbs). I disagree. Look at world history. Those damn fools playing real life NEVER learns. Leave alone EVE. I have been here long enough to see a number of scams going down. Do we ever learn? No, we don't. There's no agree/disagree here. Investing RL and in Eve is a gamble. An educated one, granted, but just like people investing in the Madoff ponzi looked at it with the fact you had a AAA-rated head of NASDAQ running it, and returning consistent and realistic returns for nearly 30 years. You damn right that would suck people right into the scam, because the convincers are so brilliant. Sure, you can ask where is the due diligence and where's that or the other, but at the end of the day, people look at the bottom line, and that bottom line was brilliant. In all honesty, Xabier looked, behaved and acted like a genuine marketeer, interested, knowledgeable and seemingly highly motivated to succeed as an IPO. Again, the pretence and the bottom line were the key factors, and he pulled in investors. Like cosmo said at the beginning, this was a perfect scam, he was audited, he actually ran the business he was presenting, and there is nothing, absolutely bugger all we can do avoid it, because the convincer was too good. Thankfully, I didn't invest, so I've not lost anything... in fact there are only 3 scams that have hit me are FRPB, Fury and Reithe, and the only one of those that hurt me was Fury, but despite that I made so much moeny on FRPB pre-scam that it shrouded any loss from all 3. But in truth that's the gamble about investing. Diversify your portfolio, only invest what you can lose, and accept the fact you win some and lose some. And that's it: play safe, and live by your own rules and you'll do well. Risk too much, it will bite you in the ass one day.
Stardust CEO Stardust Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.01.22 13:14:00 - [56] I'm pretty sure LaVista was saying he disagrees with the part where Loney says lessons will be learned.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2009.01.22 15:41:00 - [57] Originally by: Ricdic Kazuo currently has a couple of operations running under him with locked down stocks and they don't have a single problem. Just one, presently, but if demand warrants it I could potentially secure a few more BPO-based schemes using separate corp divisions. --- Can't afford that BPO? Look here. 20:1 mineral compression The EVE f@h team
nether void Caldari Shrapnel Industries	Posted - 2009.01.22 16:06:00 - [58] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Ricdic Kazuo currently has a couple of operations running under him with locked down stocks and they don't have a single problem. Just one, presently, but if demand warrants it I could potentially secure a few more BPO-based schemes using separate corp divisions. Not saying you would, Kazuo, but the potential for scam is still there if Kazuo ever decided to just keep the BPOs. I really don't think Xabier was a scam at first, but he realized how much less work it was to just keep the money and stop 'working'. That's one of my fears with the 'secured collateral' approach. Sure the risk for scam is very low from a trusted regular, but it's still not fool proof. And worse for me anyway is if I decide to run an IPO I know I'm not going to scam myself out of prints, so it makes it a little tough to have someone else hold them while I hold all the risk of them scamming. If they steal the public BPOs, I'm still on the hook to pay for all of them. That's not a good place to be for a legit IPO, especially one you could have fully financed yourself. Undo risk, really, while at the same time doing all the work? I don't really see much benefit for the person running that IPO. The only benefit would be if you ever wanted to run a FRIGGIN HUGE project where you needed billions of dollars. Those projects seem pretty few and far between on a personal level, so if you probably will never have a project like that (LOTS of overhead to keep that running - running alt accounts or real people), then it doesn't make a lot of sense to run anything public. At a crossroads.
MilowFV Echo Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.01.22 16:17:00 - [59] Also it looks like eve and RL have similar consequences, I mean isn't Madoff still under house arrest?
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.01.22 16:27:00 - [60] Originally by: MailDeadDrop I simultaneously agree and disagree with you, on different aspects. But I'll take your conclusion first: I disagree that we must have "built-in methods of ensuring security". I believe that we simply need more diverse mechanisms of retribution. Eve needs a civil justice system. The investors in [CRTF] should be able to bring civil suit against evn7289. The judicial system should have judicial discovery access to evn7289's data and the power to compel the SCC to freeze or transfer ISK from his wallet and assets from his hangars. MDD Yes, I'm not at all sure what (if anything) should be done to make scamming 'harder', I simply find it interesting that scamming in such MMO's is risk free, and high payoff. I theorize we'll see an increase in scamming until something is done about it, simply because the common denominator of player won't like it. As you say, this could go two ways: greater securities built in to prevent scams, or greater ways to 'seek revenge' on scammers. Right now there's really nothing - the scamming char can simply xfer his funds to someone else and delete. Any successful restitution abilities to fight scamming would somehow need to allow you to yank 'your' ISK from someone elses wallet, even if it has been laundered all over the place...and my theory is that if such detailed isk tracking code existed, it would be easier to simply prevent the scam from occurring in the first place :p In real life if you scam, the law makes you give it back. If there is no law, a posse rounds up and hunts you down. There is no real life comparison to being able to commit crimes with one body and discard it when it has served its purpose, and then transfer the proceeds of your crime to another law abiding body who can then live in comfort off of them. I submit that if such an ability existed in real life, we'd descend pretty quick into utter chaos and anarchy :p
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.22 16:36:00 - [61] I think the limiting factor in enforcing any such rule of law is that the GMs or rather CCP would have to get involved. Either with existing resources or creating new ones to handle the work load increase. Not something I think they are keen on, for what they consider such a small portion of the game.
Jiang Qing Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2009.01.22 17:05:00 - [62] Originally by: Ulstan Stuff Hang on a minute! Comparing Eve with RL? Let me think of a few reasons why being scammed in RL really is a problem and why it's irrelevant in Eve. 1) Starvation. Anyone gone hungry in Eve? 2) Healthcare. Waaah I can't afford to renew my clone! 3) Pension. Will Eve be around that long? 4) School Fees. Damn that skillbook is expensive.... 5) Alimony. Nice thought... If losing a ton of ISK actually meant anything, then yes, it would be worth implementing some system to protect against it but Eve is a wild lawless universe, where anything goes, and that's why so many people like it! Every day we fly around, trading, avoiding gankers, PvPing, worrying about Corp theft, knowing that we could lose a ton of ISK any minute if something goes wrong or we have a lapse of judgement. What's so different about IPO/Bond investment that it needs special protection?
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.01.22 17:16:00 - [63] I don't think you're quite grasping my point. I'm not interested in whether scamming is moral or whether people should do it or not. I'm saying that the risk vs reward for scamming is fundamentally broken. High rewards. very low risk. If you succeed, you get billions and no harm can befall you. If you fail..uh..people don't send you their money and you can try again later. Any very low risk high reward activity steadily increases in popularity until something is done about it, or it consumes the entire game. While a wild lawless universe is appealing to many people, the idea of a consequence free universe usually isn't as much :p
MailDeadDrop Globaltech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.22 17:19:00 - [64] Originally by: Jiang Qing What's so different about IPO/Bond investment that it needs special protection? If you can indicate a statement I made saying that the Eve civil justice system would be limited to IPO/Bond scams, then you have a point. But I see no reason that such a civil court system should be so limited. Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I think the limiting factor in enforcing any such rule of law is that the GMs or rather CCP would have to get involved. Either with existing resources or creating new ones to handle the work load increase. Not something I think they are keen on, for what they consider such a small portion of the game. Well, I don't see there's any way to have a new mechanism implemented without requiring effort from CCP, so I'll agree with you there. The judgment of whether it is too small to warrant such effort is CCP's, and I have no particular insight there. I don't disagree with your opinion, but neither do I agree with it. Just thinking off the cuff, I'm imagining a civil court system that is as player-driven as possible. Elect the judges like the CSM. Have them go through some training like ISD. Automate the discovery process, and have it run by the judges (i.e. judges get to vet the requests). Have judicial review handled by a new ISD division. Have certificates for legal representation (lawyers) that players earn. Look! a whole new career path! And a whole new class of characters worthy of ganking/bounties! MDD Jump Clones: 8M and NO corp switching
Ambo State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.01.22 17:31:00 - [65] Quote: I'm imagining a civil court system that is as player-driven as possible. Elect the judges like the CSM. Have them go through some training like ISD. If scammers can get enough reputation for people to give them tons of isk, they can also get people to vote for them to sit on this court panel. Nice idea but clearly far to corruptable. -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.22 17:43:00 - [66] Originally by: MailDeadDrop Just thinking off the cuff, I'm imagining a civil court system that is as player-driven as possible. Elect the judges like the CSM. Have them go through some training like ISD. Automate the discovery process, and have it run by the judges (i.e. judges get to vet the requests). Have judicial review handled by a new ISD division. Have certificates for legal representation (lawyers) that players earn. Look! a whole new career path! And a whole new class of characters worthy of ganking/bounties! MDD Still, in the end for it to be truly enforceable, in so far as judgments declared and assets seized would require upper level intervention. On the same order than exploits and isk to cash sales are dealt with now. And I think honestly those guys have enough on their plate right now tracking down evil doers.
Rigid Phallic	Posted - 2009.01.22 18:19:00 - [67] CREDIT CRUNCH TOXIC DEBT BAD LOANS just my 2 cents worth..actually no keep the 2 cents
Feryal Sky	Posted - 2009.01.22 19:36:00 - [68] Edited by: Feryal Sky on 22/01/2009 19:37:01 "The five colors blind our eyes. The five tones deafen our ears. The five flavors confuse our taste. Racing and hunting madden our minds. Possessing rare treasures brings about harmful behavior. Therefore the sage regards his center, and not his eyes." Dao De Jing
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2009.01.22 22:32:00 - [69] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: MailDeadDrop Just thinking off the cuff, I'm imagining a civil court system that is as player-driven as possible. Elect the judges like the CSM. Have them go through some training like ISD. Automate the discovery process, and have it run by the judges (i.e. judges get to vet the requests). Have judicial review handled by a new ISD division. Have certificates for legal representation (lawyers) that players earn. Look! a whole new career path! And a whole new class of characters worthy of ganking/bounties! MDD Still, in the end for it to be truly enforceable, in so far as judgments declared and assets seized would require upper level intervention. On the same order than exploits and isk to cash sales are dealt with now. And I think honestly those guys have enough on their plate right now tracking down evil doers. Even CCP can't link alt accounts with any certainty if they're paid for from different sources and from different IP addresses; there's a reason they're never sure how many distinct players there are. A player-driven justice system would never work unless it was impossible to do anything ingame without using a player-driven banking system.
MailDeadDrop Globaltech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.22 22:41:00 - [70] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Even CCP can't link alt accounts with any certainty if they're paid for from different sources and from different IP addresses; there's a reason they're never sure how many distinct players there are. A player-driven justice system would never work unless it was impossible to do anything ingame without using a player-driven banking system. I'm not disputing your claim that linking alt accounts is hard, but for the purposes of a civil justice system I think all one would need would be the ability to follow transfers (isk/goods player->player and goods hangar->hangar). The intent is to make it possible to "retrieve" ill-gotten gains. If the player behind scam-char-X also has innocent-char-Y, and so long as things of value aren't traded from X to Y, I don't think the justice system cares about discovering that the player behind X is also the player behind Y. MDD
Divine Corruption	Posted - 2009.01.23 06:02:00 - [71] In my years of playing I might have sold a few 10mil isk shuttles(i miss the old escrow days), some fake bookmarks, maybe even sold a few pieces of trit with the title of Vexor. But that's in game mechanics, and part of the game where I see no action by CCP should be needed. But on the forums, just like with GTC and Character trades there should be some sort of secure/semi secure way to post bonds. Even if you have to create specific threads with specific rules. If a certain percent of the promises are not met by the issuer then CCP should have the right to suspend/seize assets/additional accounts until a certain pre-arranged percent is paid back. Or they could at least publicly link characters and alts for those who have been found guilty of scamming the community. (right click, show info, show alts, show other linked accounts) An example:To protect investors from wrongdoing on my part, Divine Corruption agrees that CCP/CONCORD shall sieze/suspend my assets until 80% of the orginal investment is paid back. I also agree that if I cannot pay back all funds CCP/CONCORD shall release all of my characters information so I can be hunted down and harassed in game by unhappy investors. Something like that.
Raskaloth	Posted - 2009.01.23 06:33:00 - [72] But isnt the question, does EVE "world" really care about the players behind the characters? If you assume I have one character who is a scamming pirate and other one who is a respected merchant, should there be any relation between those two, if you assume I play them as separate characters, with separate money/assets. In the EVE universe I dont see us existing as players, but as characters and thus, the question is, should actions of a character have impact on the player's other characters. I agree that to some extent yes, as characters are only a representation of the player behind it, but some enjoy playing in different styles with different characters. Would you be so harsh to a respected anti-pirate corp FC who also enjoys pirating every now and then? There is also the problem of metagame information in this respect. Can you assume that a character wont use the information other character has gained to gain an advantage? Most likely they will and this makes it harder to treat same players characters and completely different entities. In the secondary market players generally invest on players, not characters, but ingame there really are no players, just characters, as far as the EVE universe is concerned. But then again, is EVE really a "roleplaying" game or just a game where you can assume different roles.. -Rask
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.01.23 12:17:00 - [73] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 23/01/2009 12:20:37 Let's get one thing straight, CCP will never do anything to prevent scamming or provide consequences for it. And this is the way it should be, so stop *****ing and moaning about that. What the community doesn't seem to understand is that even if some regulatory system is drawn that prevents 99.99% of the scams from occurring this will only delay the moment of a big scam. That which people praise the most (reputation) will come back to kick them in the ass. For some reason the brain has a higher recollection of negative events than positive ones. By averting small scams the MD regulars are actually wasting their time while doing a disservice to the community, the investment pool grows to the point the now numb investors will be more lenient towards gambling with their isk. And that's all it takes to set in motion the next big scam. Black Sun Empire
Zaran Darkstar Divine Slaves	Posted - 2009.01.23 12:54:00 - [74] Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 23/01/2009 12:53:52 No sympathy by me to the scammed "investors" . The investors are rich people who see investment as an easy way to mutiply their billions without they move a finger. When that doesn;t happen they scream about scamming and how this needs to be stopped but it's themselves who went to take advantage of the the person that proved to be a scammer. In other words that is exactly the way the thing works. A corp asks for funds by rich people promising to do all the hard complicated work and give back much profit to the investors. So in other words the company/corp offers to be the investor's *****. What the investors do ? They take advantage of the situation. They invest not because of their good heart but because they are sharks that try to make big bucks effortlessly. Well, looks like this time they had a bigger shark bite them but that doesn't mean they were angels.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.23 13:07:00 - [75] Never be any SCAM protection, as it should be. This isn't WOW. Anyway, even if some protection was added you could get around it. something like "Dear investors, while in the process of placing my faction POS's, pirates came and ganked me and stole all my gear. I am sorry to report this venture is a total loss and you 12B ISK is gone. Again I am truly sorry" How would you go about proving the above statement was a SCAM? Are you sure the pirates are his friends? Idiots will always find ways round the idiot proofing!
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.23 13:18:00 - [76] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: MailDeadDrop Just thinking off the cuff, I'm imagining a civil court system that is as player-driven as possible. Elect the judges like the CSM. Have them go through some training like ISD. Automate the discovery process, and have it run by the judges (i.e. judges get to vet the requests). Have judicial review handled by a new ISD division. Have certificates for legal representation (lawyers) that players earn. Look! a whole new career path! And a whole new class of characters worthy of ganking/bounties! MDD Still, in the end for it to be truly enforceable, in so far as judgments declared and assets seized would require upper level intervention. On the same order than exploits and isk to cash sales are dealt with now. And I think honestly those guys have enough on their plate right now tracking down evil doers. Even CCP can't link alt accounts with any certainty if they're paid for from different sources and from different IP addresses; there's a reason they're never sure how many distinct players there are. A player-driven justice system would never work unless it was impossible to do anything ingame without using a player-driven banking system. Exactly the point I was driving at. Linking accounts together is a laborious processes requiring database and log access and more importantly... staff time to do so since no player will ever be able to get to that level.
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.23 14:22:00 - [77] Originally by: YouGotRipped A more logical course would be to take legal action against isk selling for RL cash but this is laughable as well. All that CCP can do is ban the offenders. I look forward to the day that rising legal costs make cruise missile strikes the economical, preferred solution to ISK Sellers.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.23 14:28:00 - [78] Originally by: Joss Sparq Originally by: YouGotRipped A more logical course would be to take legal action against isk selling for RL cash but this is laughable as well. All that CCP can do is ban the offenders. I look forward to the day that rising legal costs make cruise missile strikes the economical, preferred solution to ISK Sellers. pffft, everyone knows you use citadel torps
oogs Gallente Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace	Posted - 2009.01.23 16:28:00 - [79] I don't post very often at all, mainly because I've been burned by a scam but also because I found a better way to raise cash. My current thought is that if you're going to try and make an IPO, go to folks who know you first. MD is nice if you've already had something running for a while and want to start a second/third/fourth IPO, need a loan, etc. Just as long as you have a proven history. I figure this would weed out most people starting IPOs who don't have a clue about what they're doing.
flakeys Tier 3 Technologies Inc Lazy is our middle name	Posted - 2009.01.23 16:35:00 - [80] Originally by: oogs I don't post very often at all, mainly because I've been burned by a scam but also because I found a better way to raise cash. My current thought is that if you're going to try and make an IPO, go to folks who know you first. MD is nice if you've already had something running for a while and want to start a second/third/fourth IPO, need a loan, etc. Just as long as you have a proven history. I figure this would weed out most people starting IPOs who don't have a clue about what they're doing. Bout the same here.Invested in about 8 IPO's last year.When the last one turned out to be a scam and i still was on the profit-side of investments i pulled it all out and restarted my own trades with it.To be honest i was getting damn lazy and it was time something woke me up, too bad such a ****head had to earn cash from it. I now handpick people myself to invest in and teach them the starters of trades.I invest time and isk and get my share back for it.Still not 100% safe but about the safest one can get in eve.
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2009.01.23 16:57:00 - [81] Originally by: flakeys Originally by: oogs I don't post very often at all, mainly because I've been burned by a scam but also because I found a better way to raise cash. My current thought is that if you're going to try and make an IPO, go to folks who know you first. MD is nice if you've already had something running for a while and want to start a second/third/fourth IPO, need a loan, etc. Just as long as you have a proven history. I figure this would weed out most people starting IPOs who don't have a clue about what they're doing. Bout the same here.Invested in about 8 IPO's last year.When the last one turned out to be a scam and i still was on the profit-side of investments i pulled it all out and restarted my own trades with it.To be honest i was getting damn lazy and it was time something woke me up, too bad such a ****head had to earn cash from it. I now handpick people myself to invest in and teach them the starters of trades.I invest time and isk and get my share back for it.Still not 100% safe but about the safest one can get in eve. That reminds me, do you still own shares in my IPO or did you sell them off?
flakeys Tier 3 Technologies Inc Lazy is our middle name	Posted - 2009.01.23 17:04:00 - [82] Edited by: flakeys on 23/01/2009 17:05:38 Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Originally by: flakeys Originally by: oogs I don't post very often at all, mainly because I've been burned by a scam but also because I found a better way to raise cash. My current thought is that if you're going to try and make an IPO, go to folks who know you first. MD is nice if you've already had something running for a while and want to start a second/third/fourth IPO, need a loan, etc. Just as long as you have a proven history. I figure this would weed out most people starting IPOs who don't have a clue about what they're doing. Bout the same here.Invested in about 8 IPO's last year.When the last one turned out to be a scam and i still was on the profit-side of investments i pulled it all out and restarted my own trades with it.To be honest i was getting damn lazy and it was time something woke me up, too bad such a ****head had to earn cash from it. I now handpick people myself to invest in and teach them the starters of trades.I invest time and isk and get my share back for it.Still not 100% safe but about the safest one can get in eve. That reminds me, do you still own shares in my IPO or did you sell them off? I sold my shares for the buy price.Can't remember to whom but if i recall right i posted it in your official IPO thread.I know your 'gambling'-IPO was my biggest investment so far in an IPO.The idea itself i really liked. It's nice and easy extra isk , but risk vs reward is something i over estimated when i look back on my total invesments.What i got from a 6 bille total investment back then i can easily get in 1 day of work with not even 1/4th of the isk and that is totally without risk. I won't say never but i don't see myself investing in any IPO any time soonish unless the idea or the OP are something i like too much to pass on.
MailDeadDrop Globaltech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.23 17:20:00 - [83] Originally by: YouGotRipped Let's get one thing straight, CCP will never do anything to prevent scamming or provide consequences for it. Oh really? So CCP will never do anything to prevent scamming in character trades or provide consequences for it . . .OOPS! Looks like they did indeed. Well, CCP will surely never do anything to prevent scamming in GTCs sales or provide consequences for it . . . OOPS! Looks like they did there, too. It would appear that the only thing we got straight here is that your statements don't hold water. MDD
Astarte Nosferatu Abrivianius Manufacturing Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.23 18:16:00 - [84] Originally by: MailDeadDrop Originally by: YouGotRipped Let's get one thing straight, CCP will never do anything to prevent scamming or provide consequences for it. Oh really? So CCP will never do anything to prevent scamming in character trades or provide consequences for it . . .OOPS! Looks like they did indeed. Well, CCP will surely never do anything to prevent scamming in GTCs sales or provide consequences for it . . . OOPS! Looks like they did there, too. It would appear that the only thing we got straight here is that your statements don't hold water. MDD I think YGR is referring to scamming in game, with in game items. Theft, scamming, spying, it is what makes EvE, well, rock. As long as it is not a crime in real life like hacking or or stealing credit card numbers, etc..., CCP actually encourages it. Yes, I'm selling some of my shares
abraheam Dirty Denizens	Posted - 2009.01.23 18:17:00 - [85] Originally by: Ulstan I don't think you're quite grasping my point. I'm not interested in whether scamming is moral or whether people should do it or not. I'm saying that the risk vs reward for scamming is fundamentally broken. High rewards. very low risk. If you succeed, you get billions and no harm can befall you. If you fail..uh..people don't send you their money and you can try again later. Any very low risk high reward activity steadily increases in popularity until something is done about it, or it consumes the entire game. While a wild lawless universe is appealing to many people, the idea of a consequence free universe usually isn't as much :p What game mechanic forces you to give ISK to someone you dont know? How can scamming consume anything other then a suckers ISK?
MailDeadDrop Globaltech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.23 18:42:00 - [86] Edited by: MailDeadDrop on 23/01/2009 18:46:09 Originally by: abraheam How can scamming consume anything other then a suckers ISK? Scamming, at its current risk/reward ratio, could theoretically "consume" the IPO and bond markets ("consume" in the sense that they would cease to exist). That seems like a Bad Thing, but YMMV. Edit: As a simple thought exercise, imagine that there existed a module that, once activated, guaranteed a win in PvP with no recourse for any opponent. And such a module was undetectable by ship scanners. Do you think that the existence of such a module would have a negative effect on PvP? And when users of the module said "nothing in game forces you to undock your ship", how would you react? MDD
flakeys Tier 3 Technologies Inc Lazy is our middle name	Posted - 2009.01.23 19:11:00 - [87] Edited by: flakeys on 23/01/2009 19:14:21 Originally by: MailDeadDrop As a simple thought exercise, imagine that there existed a module that, once activated, guaranteed a win in PvP with no recourse for any opponent. And such a module was undetectable by ship scanners. Do you think that the existence of such a module would have a negative effect on PvP? And when users of the module said "nothing in game forces you to undock your ship", how would you react? MDD No in your metaphore you are giving person X something person Y does not have.Anyone in eve can scam however so we are all on equall level.Asking CCP to do something against scams and such is just dumb imho.The only thing they need to do is try to make sure isk and rl cash don't mix up in any way , be it buying or selling isk with/for reall money.It'ss a game and all you can loose is pixels , don't ask others to hold your hands because you are too scared to loose those pixels wich you put at stake purely to gain even more profits/isk then you allready have. You know the risk of an IPO/bond , you take the risk then don't come complaining when the **** hits the fan.Yes you have every right to be mad at the person who took your isk but asking CCP to interfere is something i don't want like.
abraheam Dirty Denizens	Posted - 2009.01.23 19:16:00 - [88] Originally by: MailDeadDrop Edited by: MailDeadDrop on 23/01/2009 18:46:09 Originally by: abraheam How can scamming consume anything other then a suckers ISK? Scamming, at its current risk/reward ratio, could theoretically "consume" the IPO and bond markets ("consume" in the sense that they would cease to exist). That seems like a Bad Thing, but YMMV. Edit: As a simple thought exercise, imagine that there existed a module that, once activated, guaranteed a win in PvP with no recourse for any opponent. And such a module was undetectable by ship scanners. Do you think that the existence of such a module would have a negative effect on PvP? And when users of the module said "nothing in game forces you to undock your ship", how would you react? MDD I was playing Devils Advocate. I dont agree that scamming effects the entire game, the scondary market yes, the whole game no. As someone above stated there are many secure methods for all types of transactions between players. The advocates of the secondary market are asking for what I think is a large scale edition to the game from a development stand point, not just just a simple transaction interface. I felt there needed to be some clarification.
MailDeadDrop Globaltech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.23 19:25:00 - [89] Edited by: MailDeadDrop on 23/01/2009 19:27:05 Originally by: flakeys No in your metaphore you are giving person X something person Y does not have. Nope. Assume the module is widely available, and the first person to activate it (in a given engagement) wins. Therefore, it is precisely like the scamming environment. Originally by: abraheam I dont agree that scamming effects the entire game, the scondary market yes, the whole game no. Well, by that logic CCP should do nothing about the existing Sovereignty rules, as those only affect gameplay in 0.0 and not in the whole game. MDD
flakeys Tier 3 Technologies Inc Lazy is our middle name	Posted - 2009.01.23 19:51:00 - [90] Originally by: MailDeadDrop Edited by: MailDeadDrop on 23/01/2009 19:27:05 Originally by: flakeys No in your metaphore you are giving person X something person Y does not have. Nope. Assume the module is widely available, and the first person to activate it (in a given engagement) wins. Therefore, it is precisely like the scamming environment. [ I really can't see your logic here.Look if someone is at a gate in 0.4 with a raven and tells my alt i can jump my main in in his freighter then i can either trust him or not.Now assume i jump in and he kills me should i ask CCP then to make killings in low-sec impossible?Should i be able to ask CCP to ban this person because he did not tell the truth. You know in advance there is no security in these investments yet YOU choose to do it because YOU want even more isk then you allready have since YOU allready have more isk then you can manage/consume.
abraheam Dirty Denizens	Posted - 2009.01.23 20:05:00 - [91] Edited by: abraheam on 23/01/2009 20:05:07 Originally by: MailDeadDrop Nope. Assume the module is widely available, and the first person to activate it (in a given engagement) wins. Therefore, it is precisely like the scamming environment. If that was the case the devs would have made a crappy space ship pew pew PVP game. PVP in reality is fairly well thought out and balanced i this game which I believe is its biggest draw. Originally by: MailDeadDrop Well, by that logic CCP should do nothing about the existing Sovereignty rules, as those only affect gameplay in 0.0 and not in the whole game. Exactly. The three years I have played this game they have made minimal changes to the Sov mechanics if any. I dont think it is high priority as compared to other issues such as lag. A secondary market would be nice, but depending on the resources needed for developement I would have to assume there would be X number of arguments why those resources should be used for something else. Bottom line is that Eve has the most developed market out of any MMO I have ever played. This includes everything from Harvesting resources, the manufacturer of goods and the sale of and transportation of goods. If the Dev team had a choice of devoting resources to a secondary market or implementing mechanics to reduce lag in PVP I would hope they pick the latter.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.23 20:08:00 - [92] Originally by: abraheam Exactly. The three years I have played this game they have made minimal changes to the Sov mechanics if any. I dont think it is high priority as compared to other issues such as lag. A secondary market would be nice, but depending on the resources needed for developement I would have to assume there would be X number of arguments why those resources should be used for something else. Actually SOV is the next big overhaul in the pipeline, in fact there is an entire thread where the devs are discussing possible future changes with players right now. I'll see if I can dig it up
abraheam Dirty Denizens	Posted - 2009.01.23 20:10:00 - [93] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: abraheam Exactly. The three years I have played this game they have made minimal changes to the Sov mechanics if any. I dont think it is high priority as compared to other issues such as lag. A secondary market would be nice, but depending on the resources needed for developement I would have to assume there would be X number of arguments why those resources should be used for something else. Actually SOV is the next big overhaul in the pipeline, in fact there is an entire thread where the devs are discussing possible future changes with players right now. I'll see if I can dig it up If that is the case they are using their resources wisely IMO.
MailDeadDrop Globaltech Industries	Posted - 2009.01.23 20:31:00 - [94] Ok things are getting a bit more heated than I wanted. For my part in raising the temperature, I apologize. My analogy to a theoretical "I win!" PvP module is admittedly a crude one. flakeys tries an alternate analogy: Originally by: flakeys Look if someone is at a gate in 0.4 with a raven and tells my alt i can jump my main in in his freighter then i can either trust him or not.Now assume i jump in and he kills me should i ask CCP then to make killings in low-sec impossible?Should i be able to ask CCP to ban this person because he did not tell the truth. An interesting analogy, but let me point out that the freighter could have combat escort. To the best of my knowledge, there's no secondary market equivalent in Eve to that "combat escort". In the Real World (yes, I'm aware of the hazards of comparing RL to space pew-pew) the market's "combat escort" is essentially the civil court system (and to a certain extent the criminal court system). Guess what: there's no civil court system in Eve at all. And I am not trying to force CCP into a "ban scammers" corner. That's what it appears flakeys is (mis-)construing my message as. I'm looking for an essentially player-run civil court system, with the power to compel discovery (i.e. tell me...), renumeration (i.e. pay me...), and restitution (i.e. give me back...). Would such a system be at risk of being abused? Absolutely, which is why we must engineer into it mechanisms to make such misuse difficult. In Eve terms: we must make the risk/reward formula for abusing the civil courts be very unfavorable. The priority of implementing an Eve civil court system is better put off until a later time. I agree that there are other gameplay aspects that need attention from CCP more dearly than any Eve civil court system. That doesn't preclude discussing them, especially in the context of recent events. MDD
Jacque Custeau Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2009.01.23 20:54:00 - [95] I agree with the person who mentioned that scamming has no consequences. Perhaps scamming should remain in the game, but it should have consequences, fully in keeping with the 'sandbox' theme. As it stands now, someone can scam billions, sell off his chars and buy new ones and move happily along. If CCP does not want to play police officer, then it should give people the tools to follow the money and find out what happened. I will have been playing EvE for 6 years come May. I am yet to start my own IPO or invest in one, or put my money in any bank. Sometimes I think I am missing out on some parts of EvE, but then scams like this happen and I recall why I was so cautious to begin with. -------------------
Drab Cane Caldari Mining Emporium inc.	Posted - 2009.01.23 23:06:00 - [96] Just curious: If a scamming player starts a new account, then buys an existing character and adds it to his new account, is there a way to find out / discover when that character was transferred to the scammer's current player account? Having a public Wall of Shame that would show the name of the scammer's alt used, the scammer's player ID number, and a summary of the scam, would help push serial scammers into creating completely new accounts. That might slow them down a bit, especially if it is possible to tell how long the current account holder has actually had a particular character. It would make it more difficult for serial scanners to simply 'switch skins'. My feeling is that EVE is awesome because it is so open, and allows such a great range of interaction. Adding some kind of court system is ridiculous. When it comes to investing here, like gambling, one should never bet more than one is willing to lose. Certainly the scams don't appear to have hurt the investment market. Full Disclosure: My currest assets are around 450 mil, and I have yet to invest in any kind of bond or IPO (I can't afford to lose the working capital). By the by (completely off topic), I once spoke out against the need for adding a "Total Sell Orders" field to the Orders screen. Now that it's there, it really is convenient and I use it all the time. Kinda glad CCP didn't take me serious. - Who Dares, Wins
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.24 13:20:00 - [97] Originally by: LaVista Vista By your rules, you would have called me a scam. He called me a scam when I launched my second IPO too but that ended perfectly well. To be fair, I think he didn't know who I was. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.01.24 15:07:00 - [98] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: LaVista Vista By your rules, you would have called me a scam. He called me a scam when I launched my second IPO too but that ended perfectly well. To be fair, I think he didn't know who I was. I do have a reputation for bashing people, but I don't ever remember calling yours a scam? I never called LVV a scam either.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.24 19:41:00 - [99] Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: LaVista Vista By your rules, you would have called me a scam. He called me a scam when I launched my second IPO too but that ended perfectly well. To be fair, I think he didn't know who I was. I do have a reputation for bashing people, but I don't ever remember calling yours a scam? I never called LVV a scam either. You know what cosmoray, I was thinking of someone else. I'm really sorry about that, your avatar looks the same. I think the biggest point from your first post that I would agree with is to watch out for people running concurrent IPOs. I ran PIF and then a few months later opened PSRS and because people trusted me that was fine but watch out for the pattern in unknowns or newcomers to the market. Starting up a second phase so early could be indicative of a ponzi scheme. A classic example is Ionia, who endeared himself to the market forums and got his fingers into every investment pie he could. While it's not confirmed that it's how he operated, he launched his schemes on a schedule that is consistent with a ponzi scheme. That should have raised some red flags but didn't for most people.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:01:00 - [100] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 24/01/2009 20:01:41 Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: LaVista Vista By your rules, you would have called me a scam. He called me a scam when I launched my second IPO too but that ended perfectly well. To be fair, I think he didn't know who I was. Originally by: Nyphur You know what cosmoray, I was thinking of someone else. I'm really sorry about that, your avatar looks the same. hahah Ny-phur, Ny-phur, on your knees *****! Black Sun Empire
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.01.24 20:54:00 - [101] Originally by: YouGotRipped hahah Ny-phur, Ny-phur, on your knees *****!!"!!!111onehundredandeleven P.S. My memory works just fine, wouldn't you agree? Did that turn out to be legit? I haven't really kept up to date on investments since closing mine down. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.24 23:58:00 - [102] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: YouGotRipped hahah Ny-phur, Ny-phur, on your knees *****!!"!!!111onehundredandeleven P.S. My memory works just fine, wouldn't you agree? Did that turn out to be legit? I haven't really kept up to date on investments since closing mine down. Sorta yes, sorta who knows really. Two flops with isk being sent back on the second and now we're in the middle of a third with report date coming up here soon. Hell even Amarr invested in it, but mostly just so he could flame fest YGR with justification
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:06:00 - [103] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 25/01/2009 11:15:22 Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Hell even Amarr invested in it, but mostly just so he could flame fest YGR with justification "My eyes grew heavy and my lips they could not speak I tried to get up but I couldn't find my feet He reassured me with an unfamiliar line And then he gave to me more winter whine Ohooooh, AC's whine... When I woke up the sun was shining in my eyes My IPO was gone, my head felt twice its size He took my investors, 1 isk and a dime And let me craving for more winter whine Ohooooh, AC's whine." Thread successfully derailed. Black Sun Empire
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:36:00 - [104] YGR you are like ten books mixed into one. Sometimes you act like a snotty nosed 14 year old, sometimes you flame just because, sometimes you go on major rampages through the forums causing as much havoc as you can and other times you show a great level of maturity and knowledge. Answer me three RL questions YGR: * How old are you? * What nationality are you? * What industry/sector do you work in? I know this is also O/T but I am very curious to know. You can mail me ingame if you prefer not to say here
Astarte Nosferatu Abrivianius Manufacturing Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.25 11:44:00 - [105] Originally by: Ricdic YGR you are like ten books mixed into one. Sometimes you act like a snotty nosed 14 year old, sometimes you flame just because, sometimes you go on major rampages through the forums causing as much havoc as you can and other times you show a great level of maturity and knowledge. Answer me three RL questions YGR: * How old are you? * What nationality are you? * What industry/sector do you work in? I know this is also O/T but I am very curious to know. You can mail me ingame if you prefer not to say here The guy is just schizophrenic. There are probably 4-6 different YGR's that we can differentiate .
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.01.25 13:33:00 - [106] Originally by: Ricdic YGR you are like ten books mixed into one. Sometimes you act like a snotty nosed 14 year old, sometimes you flame just because, sometimes you go on major rampages through the forums causing as much havoc as you can and other times you show a great level of maturity and knowledge. Answer me three RL questions YGR: * How old are you? * What nationality are you? * What industry/sector do you work in? I know this is also O/T but I am very curious to know. You can mail me ingame if you prefer not to say here I don't believe I have ever shared personal info while playing an internet game (it defeats the whole purpose of having created an avatar with such an expressive name), nor am I interested in going on self praising rants, listing achievements. It's just not something I would do. What I can tell you for sure is that anyone playing a game such as Eve for entertainment purposes, falls between certain boundaries regarding his age, maturity, intelligence and so on. Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu The guy is just schizophrenic. There are probably 4-6 different YGR's that we can differentiate . Personality (as an image people constantly identify themselves with and later determines their actions and reactions on an subconscious level) is certainly a limitation. Black Sun Empire
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.25 13:40:00 - [107] Yeh I was just curious. I have already judged you and pictured you in my mind but the picture changes with almost every post you do. You and DragonRiderTAO, whilst completely different are both virtually impossible to read.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.01.25 15:08:00 - [108] Originally by: Ricdic Yeh I was just curious. I have already judged you and pictured you in my mind but the picture changes with almost every post you do. You and DragonRiderTAO, whilst completely different are both virtually impossible to read. He's like a dog chasing a car, he wouldn't know what to do with it if he caught it
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.01.25 23:44:00 - [109] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Ricdic Yeh I was just curious. I have already judged you and pictured you in my mind but the picture changes with almost every post you do. You and DragonRiderTAO, whilst completely different are both virtually impossible to read. He's like a dog chasing a car, he wouldn't know what to do with it if he caught it I understood perfectly what he meant, though in my opinion, Ricdic's attention is misdirected. DBANKS's financial activity for the past couple of months deserves more consideration (just to be on the safe side). Black Sun Empire
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans	Posted - 2009.01.26 02:31:00 - [110] Just because DBANK aren't being publically discussed by EBANK staff doesn't mean they aren't being discussed. :)
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.01.26 10:18:00 - [111] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 26/01/2009 10:24:44 Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Just because DBANK aren't being publically discussed by EBANK staff doesn't mean they aren't being discussed. :) Then you'd have nothing against me pulling 100m isk from my own pocket in order to provide the EBANK staff with hard facts to discuss, no? :)
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.26 12:15:00 - [112] There are certain things that won't be disclosed about EBANK, DBANK, our relationship etc. You can ask questions but I can't guarantee we will be able to answer them
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:44:00 - [113] Originally by: Ricdic There are certain things that won't be disclosed about EBANK, DBANK, our relationship etc. You can ask questions but I can't guarantee we will be able to answer them That's wonderful Ricdic, I'm happy for you, really, when was it the last time that you've developed such a beautiful friendship with someone? Riethe comes to mind. Oh well I expect that since you're placing DBANK on the same level as EBANK, you will have the decency that in the event Manalapan decides to disappear with his retirement fund, to discuss with the staff the matter of EBANK refunding the investors from its own reserves. Now THAT would be really awesome for EBANK's reputation, don't you think?
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:15:00 - [114] Ahh, the prodigal YGR returns.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:00:00 - [115] Originally by: Ricdic Ahh, the prodigal YGR returns. Nothing personal, I would rather have it that we reach a consensus in this matter.
Amy Mouse	Posted - 2009.01.30 18:10:00 - [116] cool, this is where all the money is at
Oldadam	Posted - 2009.02.06 23:36:00 - [117] Edited by: Oldadam on 06/02/2009 23:37:36 Wow I couldnt continue to play Eve if I was scammed 10 bil

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