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Zioh
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Posted - 2004.08.01 23:39:00 -
[271]
Edited by: Zioh on 01/08/2004 23:43:00
You can't put up buy orders without paying first in real life markets. You either pay with credit cards or get investors to help. No distributor is going to buy a few million in goods on your word that you 'should' have the money when the goods come in. There is no credit in eve so the only other choice is cash.
In real life you can't put buy orders for every item manufactured in the world, but in the current eve market you could. This isn't right.
Although the market is a capitalist one the legal system that capitalistic systems embrace is non existent in eve. So the only other choice is to make it impossible to break the law in the first place.
Just think about what your argument is. "I want to put up buy orders over 100 times my networth." Even with credit there are limits to how much you can borrow. I read every reply. I hear what you are saying about spreading buy orders out, but it so unrealistic it shivels my brain to even conceive it.
If my company were able to set buy orders in every country and province in the world on trust I would burn the money I have now it would be worthless. Using the term 'margin' is not the right term. It is a system of trust. That isn't part of capitalism or there wouldn't be a room full of CPA's and Lawers evertime a company puts in buy order for a few 100k never the less millions and billions.
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Zioh
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Posted - 2004.08.01 23:39:00 -
[272]
Edited by: Zioh on 01/08/2004 23:43:00
You can't put up buy orders without paying first in real life markets. You either pay with credit cards or get investors to help. No distributor is going to buy a few million in goods on your word that you 'should' have the money when the goods come in. There is no credit in eve so the only other choice is cash.
In real life you can't put buy orders for every item manufactured in the world, but in the current eve market you could. This isn't right.
Although the market is a capitalist one the legal system that capitalistic systems embrace is non existent in eve. So the only other choice is to make it impossible to break the law in the first place.
Just think about what your argument is. "I want to put up buy orders over 100 times my networth." Even with credit there are limits to how much you can borrow. I read every reply. I hear what you are saying about spreading buy orders out, but it so unrealistic it shivels my brain to even conceive it.
If my company were able to set buy orders in every country and province in the world on trust I would burn the money I have now it would be worthless. Using the term 'margin' is not the right term. It is a system of trust. That isn't part of capitalism or there wouldn't be a room full of CPA's and Lawers evertime a company puts in buy order for a few 100k never the less millions and billions.
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Disfigured Thief
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Posted - 2004.08.01 23:46:00 -
[273]
Edited by: Disfigured Thief on 01/08/2004 23:51:02
 Originally by: Droidster
DisfiguredThief: How will producers be affected if at all?
DT, traders do not usually buy from manufacturers/producers.
The way producers will be affected is that they will find it more expensive and time consuming to acquire raw materials and they will raise their prices accordingly. In general producers will be relatively unaffected.
The losers will be miners, especially small miners and anybody who sells anything in small quantities in out of the way places (like eg mission runners selling loot goods for example).
My point exactly. I want the prices to rise. I want to muscle out the little guy. I want to compete with buy orders. This is my duty as a producer of goods, more $ for my work. In my opinion, traders have had a sweet deal creating buy orders, at lower prices (trader competition) with disregard for hard working ignorant miners who just blindly sell at whatever orders they see to make the quick cash.
Also consider this, if I had less competition and demand was constant, the value of my goods would rise. Hurts you/helps me.
_________________
My long, hard Iteron goes into space so deep...it be cryin'.
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Disfigured Thief
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Posted - 2004.08.01 23:46:00 -
[274]
Edited by: Disfigured Thief on 01/08/2004 23:51:02
Originally by: Droidster
DisfiguredThief: How will producers be affected if at all?
DT, traders do not usually buy from manufacturers/producers.
The way producers will be affected is that they will find it more expensive and time consuming to acquire raw materials and they will raise their prices accordingly. In general producers will be relatively unaffected.
The losers will be miners, especially small miners and anybody who sells anything in small quantities in out of the way places (like eg mission runners selling loot goods for example).
My point exactly. I want the prices to rise. I want to muscle out the little guy. I want to compete with buy orders. This is my duty as a producer of goods, more $ for my work. In my opinion, traders have had a sweet deal creating buy orders, at lower prices (trader competition) with disregard for hard working ignorant miners who just blindly sell at whatever orders they see to make the quick cash.
Also consider this, if I had less competition and demand was constant, the value of my goods would rise. Hurts you/helps me.
_________________
My long, hard Iteron goes into space so deep...it be cryin'.
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2004.08.01 23:50:00 -
[275]
Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 01/08/2004 23:56:35
You cannot clonejump either to be part of every major battle in the galaxy in the real world, so lets put a leash on all the PvP people to keep them around the same place.
I don't actually care for the real world analogy with creditors, when such a system isn't operational in EVE the whole argument is out the window.
What CCP is doing is taking away trading fun and games for no benefit. If they wanted to curve the numbers of buy orders just introduce the trade skill and have how many orders you can have at any given time depend on how good you're there. As is now the trade skill does nothing.
Convert Stations
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2004.08.01 23:50:00 -
[276]
Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 01/08/2004 23:56:35
You cannot clonejump either to be part of every major battle in the galaxy in the real world, so lets put a leash on all the PvP people to keep them around the same place.
I don't actually care for the real world analogy with creditors, when such a system isn't operational in EVE the whole argument is out the window.
What CCP is doing is taking away trading fun and games for no benefit. If they wanted to curve the numbers of buy orders just introduce the trade skill and have how many orders you can have at any given time depend on how good you're there. As is now the trade skill does nothing.
Convert Stations
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Droidster
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Posted - 2004.08.01 23:54:00 -
[277]
Zioh - (and all the other people who have a hard time understanding this) TRADERS DON'T BORROW MONEY. You said it yourself: you should have to pay when you get the goods. WE DO. In EVE Online whenever you buy a good you pay in cash at the time of the sale. Why is this so difficult to understand?
You are confusing BUYING a good with ORDERING a good: two different things. And for your information the real world is the same as EVE: you can order anything you want as long as you pay when it arrives WHICH WE DO. Try this: call a luxury car dealership and order an expensive car delivered to your door. Tell them you will pay in cash when it arrives. I guarantee you any dealership will deliver the car no questions asked (except your address).
_____________________________________________
I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK. |
Droidster
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Posted - 2004.08.01 23:54:00 -
[278]
Zioh - (and all the other people who have a hard time understanding this) TRADERS DON'T BORROW MONEY. You said it yourself: you should have to pay when you get the goods. WE DO. In EVE Online whenever you buy a good you pay in cash at the time of the sale. Why is this so difficult to understand?
You are confusing BUYING a good with ORDERING a good: two different things. And for your information the real world is the same as EVE: you can order anything you want as long as you pay when it arrives WHICH WE DO. Try this: call a luxury car dealership and order an expensive car delivered to your door. Tell them you will pay in cash when it arrives. I guarantee you any dealership will deliver the car no questions asked (except your address).
_____________________________________________
I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK. |
Disfigured Thief
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Posted - 2004.08.01 23:58:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Droidster
Zioh - (and all the other people who have a hard time understanding this) TRADERS DON'T BORROW MONEY. You said it yourself: you should have to pay when you get the goods. WE DO.
...but there is a margin of credit you must admit, there is an inherent risk in placing all those without exact change. =)
_________________
My long, hard Iteron goes into space so deep...it be cryin'.
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Disfigured Thief
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Posted - 2004.08.01 23:58:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Droidster
Zioh - (and all the other people who have a hard time understanding this) TRADERS DON'T BORROW MONEY. You said it yourself: you should have to pay when you get the goods. WE DO.
...but there is a margin of credit you must admit, there is an inherent risk in placing all those without exact change. =)
_________________
My long, hard Iteron goes into space so deep...it be cryin'.
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Jahbulon
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Posted - 2004.08.02 00:00:00 -
[281]
Quote:
when the market picks back up (less then a week) there will be fever buy orders meaning that i can place my buy order in a backorder system for a low price (there wont be as much compatition) and move it to Luminarie or Yulai where the prices will go up or be stabil yulay already pay about 2.01 per unit of trit
I am not necessarily sure there will be fewer buy orders. I've thought about this in considerable detail now - specifically about how I would try and make the system work.
This is how it works now for margin trading.
I have, say, 200m isk and, say 800m of minerals being sold. I place buy orders for 50m each of iso, nox, zyd and mega in, say 20 systems. If someone were to somehow fullfil all these orders simultaneously, I'd need 4 billion isk to do it. However - and this is the crux of it - in reality this simply NEVER happens. I've NEVER been fined ever, because I watch my orders each day. I have occassionally found someone has sold me a full wack of 50m worth of mega or zyd, and what I tend to do is then drop my other orders for mega and zyd until I have my working capital back up again. Why is it possible to make margin trading work? Because:
- probably only about 30% tops of all minerals mined ever make it to the market, particularly the rares. The rest are either used or hoarded internally by corps of all sizes. The people who do sell their mins tend to be the solo miners and low - medium level corps.
- there's simply never enough mins to meet demand and hence trigger a massive crisis of failed orders. This is really important, so I'm going to say it again: in reality, there are not enough mins making it to market to fulfil probably even 10% of all the buy orders out there. I wish I could fullfil all my orders immediately at the price I like, but I never do. It takes time, because there's not enough mins coming in, and there's about 200+ people doing exactly the same as I am.
- producers are also buying mins to build stuff at a profit, and I'm in competition with them.
What happens on a typical day is that I might buy between 5-50m worth of minerals. On a typical day I also sell between 5-50m worth of minerals at a profit margin, on average, of about 10-20% - a whopping, 'whoop-de-do' daily profit of maximum 10m isk for all the work of flying around, setting and tweaking the orders and shipping the mins, based on using 200m of my cash and having 800m of assets. Some miners get that in an hour. One megathron sale is 10m profit.
I sometimes get it wrong, as well, because I have to look all the time at market trends. Megacyte has been dropping in value, and if I don't revise my margins to factor this in, I might be left with 200m worth of mega that is losing 10m in value every day.
The other thing to bear in mind is that most margin traders I know deal in individual systems and stations already. System-wide buy orders is the way of fools, becaus you end up with poxy amounts of mins at loads of stations and collecting them up is a pain in the rear.
Here's how I think I'll work with the proposed new system of remote, region wide buy / sell orders and "isk goes into escrow for all buy orders". I'll make miners and producers do all the shipping now, rather than buy miners mins at a decent price at a convenient station, and supply producers mins at a decent price (albeit one that allows me to make a profit).
Location will become irrelevant with remote buy / sell orders.
I'll put a region wide buy order on for 50m of the mins I want, at a really cheap price. I'll then remotely sell them at my margin. I suspect a lot of us will do this, and then as opposed to a system where there's large amounts of mins available at given stations, there's be small amounts of mins all over the place, with me doing all the margin trading in one region without even leaving a single station.
-----------------------------------------------
Originally by: Orestes, EVE Lead Forum Moderator
Market people are strange. Fighting is so much more straightforward.
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Jahbulon
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Posted - 2004.08.02 00:00:00 -
[282]
Quote:
when the market picks back up (less then a week) there will be fever buy orders meaning that i can place my buy order in a backorder system for a low price (there wont be as much compatition) and move it to Luminarie or Yulai where the prices will go up or be stabil yulay already pay about 2.01 per unit of trit
I am not necessarily sure there will be fewer buy orders. I've thought about this in considerable detail now - specifically about how I would try and make the system work.
This is how it works now for margin trading.
I have, say, 200m isk and, say 800m of minerals being sold. I place buy orders for 50m each of iso, nox, zyd and mega in, say 20 systems. If someone were to somehow fullfil all these orders simultaneously, I'd need 4 billion isk to do it. However - and this is the crux of it - in reality this simply NEVER happens. I've NEVER been fined ever, because I watch my orders each day. I have occassionally found someone has sold me a full wack of 50m worth of mega or zyd, and what I tend to do is then drop my other orders for mega and zyd until I have my working capital back up again. Why is it possible to make margin trading work? Because:
- probably only about 30% tops of all minerals mined ever make it to the market, particularly the rares. The rest are either used or hoarded internally by corps of all sizes. The people who do sell their mins tend to be the solo miners and low - medium level corps.
- there's simply never enough mins to meet demand and hence trigger a massive crisis of failed orders. This is really important, so I'm going to say it again: in reality, there are not enough mins making it to market to fulfil probably even 10% of all the buy orders out there. I wish I could fullfil all my orders immediately at the price I like, but I never do. It takes time, because there's not enough mins coming in, and there's about 200+ people doing exactly the same as I am.
- producers are also buying mins to build stuff at a profit, and I'm in competition with them.
What happens on a typical day is that I might buy between 5-50m worth of minerals. On a typical day I also sell between 5-50m worth of minerals at a profit margin, on average, of about 10-20% - a whopping, 'whoop-de-do' daily profit of maximum 10m isk for all the work of flying around, setting and tweaking the orders and shipping the mins, based on using 200m of my cash and having 800m of assets. Some miners get that in an hour. One megathron sale is 10m profit.
I sometimes get it wrong, as well, because I have to look all the time at market trends. Megacyte has been dropping in value, and if I don't revise my margins to factor this in, I might be left with 200m worth of mega that is losing 10m in value every day.
The other thing to bear in mind is that most margin traders I know deal in individual systems and stations already. System-wide buy orders is the way of fools, becaus you end up with poxy amounts of mins at loads of stations and collecting them up is a pain in the rear.
Here's how I think I'll work with the proposed new system of remote, region wide buy / sell orders and "isk goes into escrow for all buy orders". I'll make miners and producers do all the shipping now, rather than buy miners mins at a decent price at a convenient station, and supply producers mins at a decent price (albeit one that allows me to make a profit).
Location will become irrelevant with remote buy / sell orders.
I'll put a region wide buy order on for 50m of the mins I want, at a really cheap price. I'll then remotely sell them at my margin. I suspect a lot of us will do this, and then as opposed to a system where there's large amounts of mins available at given stations, there's be small amounts of mins all over the place, with me doing all the margin trading in one region without even leaving a single station.
-----------------------------------------------
Originally by: Orestes, EVE Lead Forum Moderator
Market people are strange. Fighting is so much more straightforward.
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Zioh
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Posted - 2004.08.02 00:02:00 -
[283]
Quote:
I guarantee you any dealership will deliver the car no questions asked (except your address).
I'm sure they wouldn't ask for credit references. Or ask for a deposit.
And yes real life needs to be looked at. Economy needs checks and balances. By giving traders unlimited buying power inflation is going run a muck.
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Zioh
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Posted - 2004.08.02 00:02:00 -
[284]
Quote:
I guarantee you any dealership will deliver the car no questions asked (except your address).
I'm sure they wouldn't ask for credit references. Or ask for a deposit.
And yes real life needs to be looked at. Economy needs checks and balances. By giving traders unlimited buying power inflation is going run a muck.
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2004.08.02 00:08:00 -
[285]
Why would they ask for credit reference or a deposit when he's paying cash on delivery?
Convert Stations
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2004.08.02 00:08:00 -
[286]
Why would they ask for credit reference or a deposit when he's paying cash on delivery?
Convert Stations
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Droidster
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Posted - 2004.08.02 00:09:00 -
[287]
Zioh - that's right. When you buy a car for cash they don't ask for credit references. They will only ask for a deposit if you factory order a custom car. If you order a car off the lot for cash they will show up at your door no questions asked. Give it a try.
_____________________________________________
I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK. |
Droidster
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Posted - 2004.08.02 00:09:00 -
[288]
Zioh - that's right. When you buy a car for cash they don't ask for credit references. They will only ask for a deposit if you factory order a custom car. If you order a car off the lot for cash they will show up at your door no questions asked. Give it a try.
_____________________________________________
I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK. |
Amerame
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Posted - 2004.08.02 00:11:00 -
[289]
Maybe you should just have enough money to cover your biggest buy order 'frozen' and everytime someone sell you something, it 1st remove it from your wallet, and then from your deposit if your wallet is empty, at this moment the game start discarding your buy order as your deposit decrease.
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Amerame
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Posted - 2004.08.02 00:11:00 -
[290]
Maybe you should just have enough money to cover your biggest buy order 'frozen' and everytime someone sell you something, it 1st remove it from your wallet, and then from your deposit if your wallet is empty, at this moment the game start discarding your buy order as your deposit decrease.
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Droidster
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Posted - 2004.08.02 00:16:00 -
[291]
I don't know why people think failed orders are such a threat. Less than 1 out of 1000 of my trades have failed, a microscopic fraction. Thats 999 happy customers to every 1 unhappy customer. You want to eliminate 90% of the liquidity in the game because of that?
_____________________________________________
I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK. |
Droidster
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Posted - 2004.08.02 00:16:00 -
[292]
I don't know why people think failed orders are such a threat. Less than 1 out of 1000 of my trades have failed, a microscopic fraction. Thats 999 happy customers to every 1 unhappy customer. You want to eliminate 90% of the liquidity in the game because of that?
_____________________________________________
I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK. |
Disfigured Thief
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Posted - 2004.08.02 00:26:00 -
[293]
Edited by: Disfigured Thief on 02/08/2004 00:34:17
Failed orders should not exist, they are a bug =)
The fate of the Universal market does not rest on your liquidity, no matter how important you traders think it is. =)
_________________
My long, hard Iteron goes into space so deep...it be cryin'.
|
Disfigured Thief
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Posted - 2004.08.02 00:26:00 -
[294]
Edited by: Disfigured Thief on 02/08/2004 00:34:17
Failed orders should not exist, they are a bug =)
The fate of the Universal market does not rest on your liquidity, no matter how important you traders think it is. =)
_________________
My long, hard Iteron goes into space so deep...it be cryin'.
|
Lao Tzu
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Posted - 2004.08.02 01:28:00 -
[295]
I only read the first half of the thread, but this change will make it be much harder to find buy orders in sparsely populated space, as many buy orders are speculative, if you need money up front for every transaction, there will be little or no speculation in the market at all.
Having money tied up in buy orders will make the market of limited use, and I guess it'd make it less laggy though
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Lao Tzu
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Posted - 2004.08.02 01:28:00 -
[296]
I only read the first half of the thread, but this change will make it be much harder to find buy orders in sparsely populated space, as many buy orders are speculative, if you need money up front for every transaction, there will be little or no speculation in the market at all.
Having money tied up in buy orders will make the market of limited use, and I guess it'd make it less laggy though
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Paw Sandberg
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Posted - 2004.08.02 02:10:00 -
[297]
truth of the matter is that i am also kinda puzzled why this change is being made (i dont think it will have the impact feared but thats besides the point) i have been fined it works just fine (you cant buy anything till the fine is paid) some peoble claim that peoble using alts are screwing up the market if that is so simply make it so a Charector can not be deleted while it has outstanding fines
other that that i dont see why CCP feels those changes are needed (although the remote market will be nice as well as being able to access the market without docking)
Thank You
Paw Sandberg
for all your BPC needs see
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=55706&page=1
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Paw Sandberg
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Posted - 2004.08.02 02:10:00 -
[298]
truth of the matter is that i am also kinda puzzled why this change is being made (i dont think it will have the impact feared but thats besides the point) i have been fined it works just fine (you cant buy anything till the fine is paid) some peoble claim that peoble using alts are screwing up the market if that is so simply make it so a Charector can not be deleted while it has outstanding fines
other that that i dont see why CCP feels those changes are needed (although the remote market will be nice as well as being able to access the market without docking)
Thank You
Paw Sandberg
for all your BPC needs see
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=55706&page=1
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Rosenbaum
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Posted - 2004.08.02 02:22:00 -
[299]
Originally by: Zioh
Edited by: Zioh on 01/08/2004 23:43:00
You can't put up buy orders without paying first in real life markets. You either pay with credit cards or get investors to help. No distributor is going to buy a few million in goods on your word that you 'should' have the money when the goods come in. There is no credit in eve so the only other choice is cash.
Sure you do. I do it all the time. Companies accept my purchase order and charge me net 30 all the time. I accept purchase orders from clients and charge them net 30 or net 60 with interest depending on the client. It's the way the business world works. |
Rosenbaum
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Posted - 2004.08.02 02:22:00 -
[300]
Originally by: Zioh
Edited by: Zioh on 01/08/2004 23:43:00
You can't put up buy orders without paying first in real life markets. You either pay with credit cards or get investors to help. No distributor is going to buy a few million in goods on your word that you 'should' have the money when the goods come in. There is no credit in eve so the only other choice is cash.
Sure you do. I do it all the time. Companies accept my purchase order and charge me net 30 all the time. I accept purchase orders from clients and charge them net 30 or net 60 with interest depending on the client. It's the way the business world works. |
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