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Miners: your income is getting slashed

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Droidster	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:04:00 - [31] Danton is right. The change will severely damage the market and push the armaments trade onto the market forum and external sites. The market forum will become a "spam fest" as he says. BTW this change will not decrease the income of traders like me much. I will make steeper margins on fewer orders. What it will do is drastically cut the income of sellers (mostly miners) because of the loss of liquidity. Right now I provide hundreds of millions in liquidity to the market. Under Shiva that will drop to 20-30 million and it will come straight out of the miners and freight sellers pockets. _____________________________________________ I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK.
Droidster	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:04:00 - [32] Danton is right. The change will severely damage the market and push the armaments trade onto the market forum and external sites. The market forum will become a "spam fest" as he says. BTW this change will not decrease the income of traders like me much. I will make steeper margins on fewer orders. What it will do is drastically cut the income of sellers (mostly miners) because of the loss of liquidity. Right now I provide hundreds of millions in liquidity to the market. Under Shiva that will drop to 20-30 million and it will come straight out of the miners and freight sellers pockets. _____________________________________________ I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK.
Orestes	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:06:00 - [33] I'm afraid I don't understand the problem All this means is that in order for you to place a buy order, that you have to have the money already, and that for the duration of the buyorder, you can't access the money, right? How are you people paying for minerals, if you haven't already got the money? Please explain, it confuses me Join the IC!
Orestes	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:06:00 - [34] I'm afraid I don't understand the problem All this means is that in order for you to place a buy order, that you have to have the money already, and that for the duration of the buyorder, you can't access the money, right? How are you people paying for minerals, if you haven't already got the money? Please explain, it confuses me Join the IC!
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:15:00 - [35] Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 31/07/2004 17:19:24 I accumulate all the money I need by selling goods while my buy orders are bringing me goods, seizing my funds as collateral for goods I don't even have an option on but a mere desire to buy is robbing me of funds I could use purchasing blueprints or paying for the occassional mishaps. I can always cover my buy orders, it's never been a problem, just not all of them in a second as there's just that many of them, there has to be to keep me from getting bored out of my mind. Give the ones who fail a standings hit with the corporation in whos station they abuse the market or something, be creative not destructive thank you. Convert Stations
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:15:00 - [36] Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 31/07/2004 17:19:24 I accumulate all the money I need by selling goods while my buy orders are bringing me goods, seizing my funds as collateral for goods I don't even have an option on but a mere desire to buy is robbing me of funds I could use purchasing blueprints or paying for the occassional mishaps. I can always cover my buy orders, it's never been a problem, just not all of them in a second as there's just that many of them, there has to be to keep me from getting bored out of my mind. Give the ones who fail a standings hit with the corporation in whos station they abuse the market or something, be creative not destructive thank you. Convert Stations
MrBinary	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:17:00 - [37] Doom sayer. The market isn't going to crash, the game isn't end. In your excitement to push the panic button, many of you continually forget that CCP built this game, and they are the ones that continue to work on this game every single day. I would bet CCP are working on aspects of this game that we don't even know about yet...if anyone knows what is best for this game...it is them. Complaining about things or changes that aren't even in game yet, let alone had a chance to demonstrate how they will affect the game at all...good or bad...well that's just idiotic. Realisticly, MrBinary "[ 2004.05.20 20:11:42 ] Hodal Xibur > Die MrBinary"
MrBinary	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:17:00 - [38] Doom sayer. The market isn't going to crash, the game isn't end. In your excitement to push the panic button, many of you continually forget that CCP built this game, and they are the ones that continue to work on this game every single day. I would bet CCP are working on aspects of this game that we don't even know about yet...if anyone knows what is best for this game...it is them. Complaining about things or changes that aren't even in game yet, let alone had a chance to demonstrate how they will affect the game at all...good or bad...well that's just idiotic. Realisticly, MrBinary "[ 2004.05.20 20:11:42 ] Hodal Xibur > Die MrBinary"
Orestes	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:19:00 - [39] Originally by: Danton Marcellus I accumulate all the money I need by selling goods while my buy orders are bringing me goods, seizing my goods as collateral for goods I don't even have an option on but a mere desire to buy is robbing me of funds I could use purchasing blueprints or paying for the occassional mishaps. I can always cover my buy orders, it's never been a problem, just not all of them in a second as there's just that many of them, there has to be to keep me from getting bored out of my mind. So, you're getting the money to pay for the stuff you're buying whilst that buy order is open? Doesn't make sense to me, paying for things with money you don't yet have Join the IC!
Orestes	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:19:00 - [40] Originally by: Danton Marcellus I accumulate all the money I need by selling goods while my buy orders are bringing me goods, seizing my goods as collateral for goods I don't even have an option on but a mere desire to buy is robbing me of funds I could use purchasing blueprints or paying for the occassional mishaps. I can always cover my buy orders, it's never been a problem, just not all of them in a second as there's just that many of them, there has to be to keep me from getting bored out of my mind. So, you're getting the money to pay for the stuff you're buying whilst that buy order is open? Doesn't make sense to me, paying for things with money you don't yet have Join the IC!
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:22:00 - [41] Oh really, how about these excellent market features being presented about the same time the nerfs are then to give a fair portrait of the market? They're not exactly selling anything proclaiming the market is taking a turn for the worse and not mentioning any upside. The one upside, to avoid these elusive scammers, is just too small to warrant the wholesale slaughter of the trade business as it still exists. Convert Stations
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:22:00 - [42] Oh really, how about these excellent market features being presented about the same time the nerfs are then to give a fair portrait of the market? They're not exactly selling anything proclaiming the market is taking a turn for the worse and not mentioning any upside. The one upside, to avoid these elusive scammers, is just too small to warrant the wholesale slaughter of the trade business as it still exists. Convert Stations
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:39:00 - [43] Orestes, I have the money, I just don't expect all my 1000 buy orders to kick in at the same time, therefor I never need to shell them all out and can invest further all the while I'm making new money to cover the old buy orders with my sell orders, much like I'd imagine the market works in the real world. With corporations not having all liquid funds but an expected revenue and a credit rating to match. You add that depth to the market instead, credit ratings and such to allow legit longterm bigtime traders some elbowroom then you can squeeze your fresh alt scammers as much as you like. Convert Stations
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:39:00 - [44] Orestes, I have the money, I just don't expect all my 1000 buy orders to kick in at the same time, therefor I never need to shell them all out and can invest further all the while I'm making new money to cover the old buy orders with my sell orders, much like I'd imagine the market works in the real world. With corporations not having all liquid funds but an expected revenue and a credit rating to match. You add that depth to the market instead, credit ratings and such to allow legit longterm bigtime traders some elbowroom then you can squeeze your fresh alt scammers as much as you like. Convert Stations
Droidster	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:40:00 - [45] Orestes - the reason liquidity will shrivel is that traders like me will no longer be able maintain all their orders. For example, lets say a trader has a bankroll of 20 million and they want to trade in isogen. They put up orders 100K @65 in outlying regions like Molden Heath, Lone Trek etc. These orders will fill slowly, 5k here, 10k there. Even with 10 such orders the 20 million covers ALL these orders because even if an order maxes out it only costs 6.5 million. To break the trader 4 orders would have to max out on the same day which is not going to happen in 4 different low volume regions at the same time. What you are missing is that the 20 million is just the cash reserve. THE TRADER HAS 150 MILLION IN ASSETS so they are worth all their orders. For example, lets say someone cashes out one of the buys and fills me for 100K isogen. All I do is go pick and sell 20,000 antibiotics I have lying around and I am back up to 20 million in cash the same day. Then I head back to the region and put up another buy order for 100K. What this means is I can easily maintain orders for a total of million isogen in 10 different regions at once. If you stop me from doing this all those orders will disappear and the miners will have nowhere to sell their isogen. They will have to hump their isogen to empire. I might instead put out 2 orders for 20K @40 or 20K at @50 only in my most high volume regions. All the other regions will go zero. This loss of liquidity will cost me a little bit, but it will cost the miners a LOT because they will lose 80-90% of the buy orders they are currently seeing and if they sell locally they will get a much worse price. _____________________________________________ I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK.
Droidster	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:40:00 - [46] Orestes - the reason liquidity will shrivel is that traders like me will no longer be able maintain all their orders. For example, lets say a trader has a bankroll of 20 million and they want to trade in isogen. They put up orders 100K @65 in outlying regions like Molden Heath, Lone Trek etc. These orders will fill slowly, 5k here, 10k there. Even with 10 such orders the 20 million covers ALL these orders because even if an order maxes out it only costs 6.5 million. To break the trader 4 orders would have to max out on the same day which is not going to happen in 4 different low volume regions at the same time. What you are missing is that the 20 million is just the cash reserve. THE TRADER HAS 150 MILLION IN ASSETS so they are worth all their orders. For example, lets say someone cashes out one of the buys and fills me for 100K isogen. All I do is go pick and sell 20,000 antibiotics I have lying around and I am back up to 20 million in cash the same day. Then I head back to the region and put up another buy order for 100K. What this means is I can easily maintain orders for a total of million isogen in 10 different regions at once. If you stop me from doing this all those orders will disappear and the miners will have nowhere to sell their isogen. They will have to hump their isogen to empire. I might instead put out 2 orders for 20K @40 or 20K at @50 only in my most high volume regions. All the other regions will go zero. This loss of liquidity will cost me a little bit, but it will cost the miners a LOT because they will lose 80-90% of the buy orders they are currently seeing and if they sell locally they will get a much worse price. _____________________________________________ I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK.
Orestes	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:46:00 - [47] I think I understand what you're saying. Your placing buy orders, but you do not have liquid assets. You instead sell things when you orders are filled. What I don't understand is, why would the buy orders vanish? You have the cash (liquid or not), so placing the orders shouldn't be much of a problem. Trying hard to understand here, being a market newb and all. Join the IC!
Orestes	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:46:00 - [48] I think I understand what you're saying. Your placing buy orders, but you do not have liquid assets. You instead sell things when you orders are filled. What I don't understand is, why would the buy orders vanish? You have the cash (liquid or not), so placing the orders shouldn't be much of a problem. Trying hard to understand here, being a market newb and all. Join the IC!
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:52:00 - [49] Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 31/07/2004 17:56:30 We live on the expectation of sales, not having the cash at hand prevents us from planning ahead making new investments for other people to benefit from. I will not buy that 50k noxcium thinking I will bring it with me the next time I'm out here to sell at a profit should I not have enough risk capital at hand. Longterm high-risk investments will take a nosedive. This may not even be my primary trade, I just happen to stumple on a good deal whilst trading something completely different. What this restriction does is dampen the incentive to invest in perhaps new and uncertain markets. Convert Stations
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:52:00 - [50] Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 31/07/2004 17:56:30 We live on the expectation of sales, not having the cash at hand prevents us from planning ahead making new investments for other people to benefit from. I will not buy that 50k noxcium thinking I will bring it with me the next time I'm out here to sell at a profit should I not have enough risk capital at hand. Longterm high-risk investments will take a nosedive. This may not even be my primary trade, I just happen to stumple on a good deal whilst trading something completely different. What this restriction does is dampen the incentive to invest in perhaps new and uncertain markets. Convert Stations
Iece Quaan	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:58:00 - [51] Because they can't put up buy orders whose total amount exceeds their liquid assets. If the guy above has 20 mil, and puts up 10 buy orders for 100k iso @ 65 ( 6.5m each ), his total buy orders come to 65 mil. However, it's unlikely that all 10 buy orders will be filled simultaneously. They get filled a little at a time. The trader has the time needed to cruise around, pick up his stock, and set sell orders ( or selling it outright ) somewhere else. About spending money you don't have, lol, people do that every day. Credit Cards? =P I agree that this change is unneccesary. It will remove a lot of the risk of playing a trader. If you can only place orders you can actually cover, then there's no possibility of going bust. You have to realize that these guys need to log in every day to keep this sort of thing going.. if they don't, they can come back to a bankrupt character. There's no imbalance here. What you need to be doing is removing the average price warning, and introduce a high-low range price warning ( You are about to buy 1 unit of trit for 1 billion isk! ). --------
Iece Quaan	Posted - 2004.07.31 17:58:00 - [52] Because they can't put up buy orders whose total amount exceeds their liquid assets. If the guy above has 20 mil, and puts up 10 buy orders for 100k iso @ 65 ( 6.5m each ), his total buy orders come to 65 mil. However, it's unlikely that all 10 buy orders will be filled simultaneously. They get filled a little at a time. The trader has the time needed to cruise around, pick up his stock, and set sell orders ( or selling it outright ) somewhere else. About spending money you don't have, lol, people do that every day. Credit Cards? =P I agree that this change is unneccesary. It will remove a lot of the risk of playing a trader. If you can only place orders you can actually cover, then there's no possibility of going bust. You have to realize that these guys need to log in every day to keep this sort of thing going.. if they don't, they can come back to a bankrupt character. There's no imbalance here. What you need to be doing is removing the average price warning, and introduce a high-low range price warning ( You are about to buy 1 unit of trit for 1 billion isk! ). --------
Orestes	Posted - 2004.07.31 18:01:00 - [53] Gonna try to digest this o_o Personally, I like the idea that people arent placing orders with non-existing money Join the IC!
Orestes	Posted - 2004.07.31 18:01:00 - [54] Gonna try to digest this o_o Personally, I like the idea that people arent placing orders with non-existing money Join the IC!
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2004.07.31 18:02:00 - [55] People do that all the time, it's called capitalism. Convert Stations
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2004.07.31 18:02:00 - [56] People do that all the time, it's called capitalism. Convert Stations
Iece Quaan	Posted - 2004.07.31 18:05:00 - [57] Originally by: Orestes Gonna try to digest this o_o Personally, I like the idea that people arent placing orders with non-existing money If they get filled the people go bust. It's not like it dosen't have consequences. The end. --------
Iece Quaan	Posted - 2004.07.31 18:05:00 - [58] Originally by: Orestes Gonna try to digest this o_o Personally, I like the idea that people arent placing orders with non-existing money If they get filled the people go bust. It's not like it dosen't have consequences. The end. --------
Droidster	Posted - 2004.07.31 18:12:00 - [59] Reply to Orestes - When a trader makes profit it is a question of (1) the margin (2) the rate the order is filled (3) the shipping costs to the sell location, and (4) how long it will take to sell. If I am restricted to my cash on hand for my buy orders I will have to put out only a handful of orders (currently I have HUNDREDS of orders outstanding). This handful will have to be the fastest filling, highest volume orders possible for me to maintain a reasonable profit over time. Any order which fills slowly or will be slow to sell, forget it is cancelled. To give you a sense for it here is a random sample of a few of my orders: Transcranial Microcontroller 4,000 10/10 Transmitter 25 19845/20000 Soil 1 10000/10000 Antibiotics 50 10000/10000 Carbon 30 9657/10000 Dairy Products 4 10000/10000 Construction Blocks 25 15667/20000 Ectoplasm 100 8975/10000 This is a completely random sample. I did not pick them. ALL of these orders would cancelled if I had to cover them by cash because they all move way too slowly. For example, look at the CB (construction blocks). I make nearly 100% margin (they sell at 500). In two months I have made 2.1 million gross. It will cost me 500K to have them shipped etc so I will net about 1.5 million when I get around to selling them. Great. It costs me nothing to maintain this order, except having to travel there and put it up. With Shiva it will cost me 500,000 credits to maintain this order. My ROI will plunge to 400%. Its not worth. Also, when I put up the CB order I didn't even know if it would fill. I have plenty of CB orders that look like this: 10000/10000. They sit there UNFILLED. Each one of them would cost me cash under the proposed system. Under Shiva ALL of the above orders would be cancelled. What that means is that players will find it much more difficult to sell their freight. The only buyers will be NPC. _____________________________________________ I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK.
Droidster	Posted - 2004.07.31 18:12:00 - [60] Reply to Orestes - When a trader makes profit it is a question of (1) the margin (2) the rate the order is filled (3) the shipping costs to the sell location, and (4) how long it will take to sell. If I am restricted to my cash on hand for my buy orders I will have to put out only a handful of orders (currently I have HUNDREDS of orders outstanding). This handful will have to be the fastest filling, highest volume orders possible for me to maintain a reasonable profit over time. Any order which fills slowly or will be slow to sell, forget it is cancelled. To give you a sense for it here is a random sample of a few of my orders: Transcranial Microcontroller 4,000 10/10 Transmitter 25 19845/20000 Soil 1 10000/10000 Antibiotics 50 10000/10000 Carbon 30 9657/10000 Dairy Products 4 10000/10000 Construction Blocks 25 15667/20000 Ectoplasm 100 8975/10000 This is a completely random sample. I did not pick them. ALL of these orders would cancelled if I had to cover them by cash because they all move way too slowly. For example, look at the CB (construction blocks). I make nearly 100% margin (they sell at 500). In two months I have made 2.1 million gross. It will cost me 500K to have them shipped etc so I will net about 1.5 million when I get around to selling them. Great. It costs me nothing to maintain this order, except having to travel there and put it up. With Shiva it will cost me 500,000 credits to maintain this order. My ROI will plunge to 400%. Its not worth. Also, when I put up the CB order I didn't even know if it would fill. I have plenty of CB orders that look like this: 10000/10000. They sit there UNFILLED. Each one of them would cost me cash under the proposed system. Under Shiva ALL of the above orders would be cancelled. What that means is that players will find it much more difficult to sell their freight. The only buyers will be NPC. _____________________________________________ I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK.

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