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Cypher V
Minmatar Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2009.02.04 09:32:00 -
[1]
I'm a thoroughbred Minmatar, and our battleships suck... But when it comes to the Marauders I find that The Vargur aint all THAT bad on EFT.
The damage output isn't great... around 750 or something inc. drones, but you have a huge falloff with the ability to swap out damage types. You can also permarun your AB (440m/s) and tank and tractors and salvagers and **** movie all at the same time! With the added bonus of being able to swap out the damage types you deal... I want to know is the Vargur all that bad a ship to train for?
The Paladin is often hailed as the best one, I guess because of the numbers EFT show you, but that's all EM/Therm. You can't swap out damage types if you need to shoot Exp.
So... to sum up my actual question here; Do I spend 95days training for the Vargur? Or 145days for a Paladin/Golem/Kronos?
Discuss. :P ----------------------------------------------
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2009.02.04 09:55:00 -
[2]
Each have their own advantages.
The golem can also switch damage types, but suffers the drawback that if the enemy pumps enough defender missiles, its attack can be blunted. 1 vs 1 situation the defender missiles could reduce the effectiveness of a golem a lot.
Kronos also can switch damage types with hybrid ammo. From mem the large hybrid is slightly shorter range than artillery, but the short range blasters longer range than the min autocannons.
Palidin has less flexibility in being just em/therm, but it hits those hard. The pulse weapons have longer range than autocannons or blasters which is useful.
It comes down to individual prefererences. Any of them can be made to work well.
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Cypher V
Minmatar Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2009.02.04 10:27:00 -
[3]
Thanks for that, just put confidence back into my skill training plan ^_^
Glad to know the Vargur isn't just "The one you don't train for."
It's a shame I'm in space atm where all teh missions are Caldari/Amarr based :( Might have to move. ----------------------------------------------
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Mikal Drey
Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.04 10:28:00 -
[4]
hey hey
The Vargur is a hard ship to love :'''( for sheer efficiency then Golem is the better marauder. Its got multiple problems cause everything you want it to actually do it cant.
As the paladin, golem, kronos are very natural extensions of their counterparts then stepping up in class is an easy step to make but Matari PVE ships havet been as restrictive as the other races. If your caldari then im pretty sure you would be in the raven.
If you got the choice to fly any of them just consider each ones style then choose accordingly. I would go out on a limb and say that neither really have a weakness per se because they are all elite PVE ships I dont think any have had threads about them being weak in any form. except the Vargur and its fecked up grid issues.
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Glomenthal
STRONG POLITIK
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Posted - 2009.02.04 10:37:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer Each have their own advantages. Kronos also can switch damage types with hybrid ammo.
Oh? Care to tell me which hybrid ammo type that does anything other than kin/therm then? |
Altana Altusium
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.04 10:59:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer the short range blasters longer range than the min autocannons
Longer range? Blaster? Can you spell "64km Falloff"?
My Vargur does that...
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Giannamichaels
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Posted - 2009.02.04 11:01:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Glomenthal
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer Each have their own advantages. Kronos also can switch damage types with hybrid ammo.
Oh? Care to tell me which hybrid ammo type that does anything other than kin/therm then?
i was about to say the same, this guy is either trolling or clueless, kronos is limited to kin and therm damage
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Boma Airaken
The Divine Comedy Celestial Imperative
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Posted - 2009.02.04 11:03:00 -
[8]
Fit a pair of super cheap projectile ambit extension II rigs and run a good flux coild permatank with gyrostabs and she shines. SHINES.
I wouldn't run missions in anything BUT a Vargur ever again.
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Steve Celeste
Caldari Paxton Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.04 11:19:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer 1 vs 1 situation the defender missiles could reduce the effectiveness of a golem a lot.
1 Golem versus 1 npc?
What? |
Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2009.02.04 13:36:00 -
[10]
Ok, haven't fired a hybrid weap since June last year, got that part wrong.
Ranges of weapons (just looked up in the item database). - Pulse Laser II 24km +8km falloff - Netron Blaster II 7.2 km +10km falloff - 800mm artillery II 4.8 km +16km falloff
Thats before ammo, ship mods, skills, imps, boosters. For Short range weapons, Laser is longest range, then Hybrid, last projectile. Falloff goes the other way. If you can reach 50km range with your autocannon, then someone else can reach further and easier with a pulse laser.
Eg take the Vargur with Marauder V trained giving +50% falloff from ship bonus The pulse laser II with base 24km + 8km falloff will hit more accurately at longer range than the 800mm repeating artillery with base 4.8km range + 24km (added the ship bonus). Add 25% to the range + falloff from training and laser up to 30+ 10km and the autocannon up to 6km + 30km. Add ammo to the pulse laser and scorch is +50%, radio + 60% range = 45/48km + 10km. Add ammo to the autocannon and carbonized lead is +60% range = 9.6km + 30km falloff or the t2 barrage 1.5x falloff = 6km range + 45km falloff. What it means is shot for shot at 45km the laser hasn't started using its falloff yet and will hardly miss while the autocannon is at 87% of its falloff range already and more likely to miss. Barrage is the only ammo I spotted giving the boost to falloff and its explosive/kin only - so any other ammo and your much shorter range/falloff.
1 vs 1 reducing Golem damage? I've seen a Golem pilot cursing quite well when they had someone test firing defender missiles at them. As only have 4 weapons, the opposition player raven was plasetering them with defenders and stopping a good amount of damage. I'm guessing they had 2-4 assault launchers firing defenders but I never asked. While Golems do 100% more damage when they hit, a missile shot down is the opposite and 100% more costly in lost dps. Its one advantage a raven may have over a golem. How many missions use defenders and shoot down missiles? I dont know as I dont use missiles. I have seen some posts mentioning npc's using defender missiles and reducing missile damage - giving difficulty to some players using missiles. Missile boats are very popular (dont have any myself) so I'm guessing not many npc's react that way.
All Marauders can work well. Comes down to personal choices. Eg if your flying a vargur and fighting a Raven/Golem you probably want to fit artillery vs autocannons as without the barrage + falloff bonus your range is almost pitiful and they are likely to want to shoot you at range too. Raven/Golems can have good explosive/kin resists so barrage probably not a good ammo to use either. Comes back to 'know your enemy' be that a NPC or a player.
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Cypher V
Minmatar Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:08:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Boma Airaken Fit a pair of super cheap projectile ambit extension II rigs and run a good flux coild permatank with gyrostabs and she shines. SHINES.
I wouldn't run missions in anything BUT a Vargur ever again.
Don't see how you can fit guns with that fit... I have to use a PDU and an Ancilary Current Router II to get 1200mm's to fit o_0
Anyways...When it comes to using autocannons for PvE, I shudder. No autocannons.
Also, you want the enemy to be within 40km of you when you kill it for tractor beam purposes, so an optimal of around 25km-30km is ideal really. You'll still be hitting for something like 95% of you max damage at 40km too with that huge falloff.
I guess from what people have said, the Vargur aint all that bad, and it's got a pretty hefty tank along with some nice speed too. So the DPS is low compared to the other marauders but you have damage type choices, which is always helpful.
Also, a couple of setups would be nice to see, I've got this one worked out on EFT, what do you think?
[Vargur, MiRu] Power Diagnostic System II Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II X-Large Shield Booster II Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I
Ancillary Current Router II Capacitor Control Circuit I
Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5
----------------------------------------------
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Mikal Drey
Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:46:00 -
[12]
fighting in your optimals is a pain in the ass and if your going with an arty varg then you will come unstuck because tracking becomes an issue. With the auto vargs they have a 45km+ falloff and tracking is less of an issue.
EXAMPLE 800mm setup
[Vargur, 800mm Setup] Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II
X-Large Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Stasis Webifier II
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
6+45km @ 661 DPS "Cap Stable" @ 44% Lowest resist 71.9% @ 729 DPS Tanked
Ideally with an auto setup you should have an AB so you could easily drop an invul, PDU and add the AB II and RCU. for less use of the RCU you can swap out for faction diags instead (which would be the better option)
EXAMPLE 1400mm Setup
[Vargur, 1400mm ] Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Damage Control II
X-Large Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Stasis Webifier II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I
Ancillary Current Router I Ancillary Current Router I
Same kinda setup but note the stupid use of fitting mods :/
1400mm II PIMPED :)
[Vargur, Faction testin] Shadow Serpentis Power Diagnostic System Power Diagnostic System II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Power Diagnostic System II
Gist B-Type X-Large Shield Booster Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Gallente Navy Stasis Webifier/Target Painter II/Sensor Booster (scan res) Cap Recharger II
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I
Capacitor Control Circuit II Ancillary Current Router II
Cap stable at 40% So you can perma run the booster if you really really wanted :/
The best DPS comes from the 800mm Setup so thats probably why most Vargurs are Auto fitted. also with the large falloff capable of matching a sniper fit with TI ammo. Again it really depends on your choice of PVE style. If you want to push the tank up you should invest in a crystal set.
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Silver Fusion
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:47:00 -
[13]
I'm pretty clueless if it comes to Minmatar ships but I think this could work.
[Vargur, Mission Runner] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II
Large Shield Booster II Shield Boost Amplifier II Ballistic Deflection Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Target Painter II
Domination 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, Republic Fleet EMP L Domination 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, Republic Fleet EMP L Domination 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, Republic Fleet EMP L Domination 1400mm Howitzer Artillery, Republic Fleet EMP L Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I
Capacitor Control Circuit I Ancillary Current Router I
Hammerhead II x5
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Guerrica
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Posted - 2009.02.04 16:01:00 -
[14]
Vargur is made for AC's. It doesn't have the PG to do an arti fit near as well, and the falloff bonus leads you further toward AC's.
Fit 800mm II's and toss on the aforementioned ambits.
On the topic of golem v. defenders ... They're only an issue when using cruise missiles. Torps take more than one NPC defender to die, and NPC's only shoot 1 defender per missile.
The person talking about them sounded like the defenders were problem v players... If you're fighting *anyone* with a golem, you've got more isk than sense. And if the person you're fighting is in a missile boat and decides to gimp their own dps with a couple of defender-s, you win. Fail argument.
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JordanParey
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.02.04 16:43:00 -
[15]
The Vargur would actually do okay with Pithi B small boosters:
[Vargur, Autocannon]
High: 4x 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 3x Tractor Beam I
Mids: 2x Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field 1x Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier 2x Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster 1x 100MN Afterburner II
Lows: 2x Ammatar Navy Power Diagnostic System 2x Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer 1x Damage Control II
Rigs: Capacitor Control Circuit x2
Cap stable at 51% with L5 skills. 426 m/s Resists are EM/Therm/Kin/Exp 72/74/77/81 Omnitanks 608 DPS. Dishes out 760 DPS with HH II drones and all skills at 5 (except for Large AC Spec) |
Silver Fusion
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2009.02.04 17:34:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Guerrica
Vargur is made for AC's. It doesn't have the PG to do an arti fit near as well, and the falloff bonus leads you further toward AC's.
Fit 800mm II's and toss on the aforementioned ambits.
Just out of curiosity and as I want to learn, what's wrong with the fit I posted for example with Artellery?
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Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2009.02.04 17:46:00 -
[17]
Here's my setup,
[Vargur, Mission Setup] Damage Control II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II
100MN Afterburner II Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Explosion Dampening Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I
Projectile Ambit Extension I Projectile Ambit Extension I
800 dps - short two RF gyros since I lost my last two on a PVP ship 6 + 62 km falloff - but I hardly ever kill anything past 40 km since I hate chasing wrecks and the AB makes zipping around pretty painless.
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Mikal Drey
Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.04 19:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Silver Fusion Just out of curiosity and as I want to learn, what's wrong with the fit I posted for example with Artellery?
Nothing was wrong with your fit.
With hardener choice i would switch out to mission specific always.
The Domination arties are a waste and you should go TII : :3x Gyro II + 4x 1200mm TII + Fusion L = 477/3765 :3x Gyro II + 4x domination 1200 + Fusion L = 465/3486
So the dominations dont outdamage the TII so for isk and efficiency its just not worth it. TII also gives you the advantage of TII ammo.
Otherwise nothing wrong as far as i can see.
The main thing is everyone else believes that its a ship designed and specific for autos. There is some credibility to it but it still performs as well when being used as a sniper. Being a Matari ship it has a tendency to lean both ways like some weird amarrian bisexual priest. Arties fit but at a high cost. Autos fit and tank well but you need to constantly fight in falloff and use other utlilty mods to suplement your drop in DPS due to falloff rules. (50% chance to hit @ Optimal+Falloff) Yeah EFT brings out the auto DPS highest but it doesnt factor in reality.
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Julie Thorne
14th Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.04 19:36:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Silver Fusion
Just out of curiosity and as I want to learn, what's wrong with the fit I posted for example with Artellery?
It's not bad but I'd use 1200mm arties instead of 1400mms. You get most of your range from falloff anyways so the shorter optimal doesn't matter, 1200mm aries track better, and the bigger clipsize makes reloading less annoying. The DPS difference is not that big and if you fit 1200mms iirc you can drop one of the PDSs and fit a fourth gyro so actually you get better DPS with the smaller guns.
TBH if I ever wanted to use arties on a Vargur I'd use t2 1200mm arties with 1 maybe 2 falloff rigs (fitting 2 is hard) and Quake: the tracking penalty is offset by the Vargur's tracking bonus and the range penalty only applies to the optimal. And obviously the DPS is much higher. |
Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2009.02.04 19:42:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Mikal Drey
So the dominations dont outdamage the TII so for isk and efficiency its just not worth it. TII also gives you the advantage of TII ammo.
Otherwise nothing wrong as far as i can see.
Most people fit faction arties for the lower PG costs since the Vargur is so gimped in the powergrid department. |
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Mikal Drey
Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.04 19:48:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Pwett Most people fit faction arties for the lower PG costs since the Vargur is so gimped in the powergrid department.
as always i tend to agree with you :)
the gimped grid really gets my goat but its livable. the cost for the dominations Vs TII just never adds up for me and to sacrifice the additional damage just never makes that much sense. Also sometimes i like to spank Quake at buildings. Tremmor can also come in handy :)
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Cypher V
Minmatar Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:09:00 -
[22]
OK, to the people using autocannon setups;
"STOP! You're being IDIOTS! You simply don't have full damage until you're right on top the enemy, meaning you've got to get there before you deal proper damage, and you've got to fit for a huge tank that isn't needed. It takes too long to get into range."
phew...
Having seen the Pithi B small shield booster thing with 4xGyros on it though, I like it, I like it mucho :D
Changing my original to this:
[Vargur, MiRu copy 1] Capacitor Flux Coil II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Target Painter II Shield Boost Amplifier II Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I
Ancillary Current Router II Capacitor Control Circuit I
Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5
Getting better!!! Thanks for your input! Can finally fit a Target Painter on there too, I've been trying to figure out how to do that for AGES! Check it out in EFT guys... 800DPS with +3% implants and comes with a free target painter! Bargain. ----------------------------------------------
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Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:26:00 -
[23]
I will outdamage you to 53.5 Kilometers for stationary targets and up to 63km at full transversal.
_______________ <Q> QUANT Hegemony Item Database
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Mikal Drey
Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:29:00 -
[24]
graphs are pretty but check my bio ..I..
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Cypher V
Minmatar Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2009.02.04 20:38:00 -
[25]
Who's "you"?
And my setup does 797dps... with a target painter. ----------------------------------------------
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Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2009.02.04 21:13:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Pwett on 04/02/2009 21:13:56 RF EMP L moves the breakeven point to 37.5 km but it also means that I start with 300dps.
Not including drones of course, and using my skills between the two setups.
I'll be honest with you - I live in Derelik, lots of Sansha and Mercenary Missions. I rarely get angel missions, but 9/10 missions everything comes within 40km of me. Sansha blockade sticks out as one I need to chase them down, and there's the opening room of WC, but I have a ship specifically built for that room.
/edit: Kin is actually Caldari's second weakest shield resist - so you probably could :)
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foobarx
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Posted - 2009.02.04 21:47:00 -
[27]
I wouldn't fit anything but autos on mine. The DPS difference is enormous, the gimped grid makes fitting painful in arty setups. With my skills the autos are good out to about 60km for all but the toughest rats.
Then again, I'm running missions in a region with mostly angels, so most of the BS rats come in to 8km or so where it takes me about 30 seconds to pop them. For the odd Serpentis Grand Admiral at 50km it takes a bit longer, but with drones it's still much faster than my old arty Tempest.
If I had lots of missions coming up Sansha... I'd move to a different region
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foobarx
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Posted - 2009.02.04 21:50:00 -
[28]
By the way, it takes three defenders to destroy a torp, so the Golem pilots cursing defenders are probably using cruise missiles. Why bother? You may as well fly a CNR for a whole lot less ISK.
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Mikal Drey
Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.04 21:52:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Cypher V Thanks for opening my eyes. I'm just gonna go and bury myself..
Dont listen to Pewt and the rest of the auto crowd. Artillery isnt about the DPS.
compare the alpha strike and reconsider. I still get to instapop some of the weaker cruisers and destroyer class's.
you could even drop a salvager/tractor for a Drone Augmentor to get 79km drone activation range. With bouncer II's you could warp in and drop some sentry drones to give you some drone snipage or some long range warriors. Arty isnt weaker its just different.
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Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2009.02.04 21:56:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Mikal Drey
you could even drop a salvager/tractor for a Drone Augmentor to get 79km drone activation range. With bouncer II's you could warp in and drop some sentry drones to give you some drone snipage or some long range warriors. Arty isnt weaker its just different.
I agree completely. :)
I'm not anti-arty; I just wanted to show that the falloff penalty auto-cannon dps wasn't as bad as he had thought.
But that said, don't get too happy for arty; it is in dire need of a rebalance to bring it back in line with other long-range large weapon systems. It's been sorely lacking since the ship HP Boost of 2006. _______________ <Q> QUANT Hegemony Item Database
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