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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 22 post(s)
Horchan Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.20 05:32:00 - [121] Originally by: Protheroe Stuff Hm. Interesting analysis from the monetary aspect. One thing that I was pondering is how the T2 gas harvesters will work. They pull 15m3/cycle, but gas clouds are 10m3 each. Does this mean it will pull in one unit the first cycle then two units the second? Anyhow, I was thinking of the gas requirements in terms of man-hours. Using five T1 gas harvesters and the current requirements, it would take 48.67 man-hours to harvest the fullerites to make one T3 cruiser; using T2 gas harvesters it would take 32.45 man-hours. Not too bad until you consider that this is under 100% optimal conditions and perfect fullerite cloud compositions to react into exactly the right amount of polymers to manufacture into the right components to build the subsystems and hull. The point doesn't evade me that this isn't meant to be easy. Just pointing out details. Next comes the balance of the fullerites. Looking at current build requirements, there doesn't appear to be a "more to less" spread on any of the fullerites like there is in the mineral build costs of normal items. The two sets of exceptions are C320/C540, which are on average used less, and C50/C60, which are used more. This either implies that all the other fullerites are going to be similarly distributed, or that there will be a shortage of the "rarer" of the fullerites that are commonly used, namely C84 and C32, which we've (hopefully incorrectly) presumed to be of medium rarity. I must also again voice my concerns that unless 'Electromechanical Hull Sheeting', 'Powdered C-540 Graphite', and 'Thermal Diffusion Film' Sleeper salvage drops like candy, they too will possibly be a bottleneck for component construction. The first iteration of the salvage build costs looked much more balanced than the current iteration. --- DesuSigs
Pringlescan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.20 07:49:00 - [122] If it ends up costing over 1b it better be able to solo a dread because thats about how much an insured dread costs to lose. If it isn't anywhere near that level ccp just messed up big time spending a whole bunch of effort on something that .1% of the eve population will ever see or use (boosters and black ops battleships anyone) just saying that either these need to be able to deal 1500 dps from 150km away to be even considered for pvp at that sort of price. I will be very disappointed with ccp if it ends up being just 20% better then the t2 version of the ship and costing 10 times as much.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.02.20 07:54:00 - [123] Interesting cost analysis. So approx 500 mil for whole ship based on gas cloud materials alone. Plus the sleeper salvage and reverse engineering expenses. That is a lot for cruiser class hull, but then again if they are good enough the price is not an issue - at least for collectors and mission bears. For PvP I think they will end up in the same bag as black ops with that pricetag. Not bcos of being useless, but bcos of price / effectivity relation.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.20 11:15:00 - [124] Originally by: Protheroe TIII Price Estimates Gas Harvesting Assuming the skill bonuses remain the same as they are on SiSi now, Gas Harvesting V will allow the use of a maximum of 5 Gas Cloud Harvesters per ship. With the new T2 Harvesters, that will mean a maximum yield of 9000m3, or 900 fullerenes per hour. Assuming a minimum income from harvesting fullerites in Wormhole space of 18Mil per hour (about 150% of the income from Veldspar at current prices), gives a base price of 20,000 ISK per fullerene (not too far off the cheapest sell orders for gas clouds on TQ). Very good work, thank you. Mi only doubt is this part: "Assuming a minimum income from harvesting fullerites in Wormhole space of 18Mil per hour". Personally, seeing the risk, delays and probable problems the minimum income requirement for man/hour of work in WH space is in the 30 million range. That would put my income on the same range of mining high end in 0.0 space and a bit better than running missions.
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.02.20 18:16:00 - [125] Thanks for that analisys, very usefull. Since gaz harvesting should be in the same range of profitability than mining rare, at least, that will put the cost of a complete T3 ship around the 700M range, counting only gaz. Salvage could easily double that cost, and then there's the issue about finding the bpcs and the random chances degrees of success with them. And the corp doing all the production chain will need a decent profit for the production itself. That mean a market price of several billions for those ships, as things are right now... ------------------------------------------
Sophie Daigneau CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.20 18:20:00 - [126] Experimental labs are now seeded on the market, but Ancient Relics are not. Can we get the Ancient relics seeded so we can start testing the reverse engineering process?
Reluthan Eldom Really Bad Eggs	Posted - 2009.02.20 18:31:00 - [127] Originally by: Sophie Daigneau Experimental labs are now seeded on the market, but Ancient Relics are not. Can we get the Ancient relics seeded so we can start testing the reverse engineering process? Ancient Relics have been on the market for at least a week...
Sophie Daigneau CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.20 18:49:00 - [128] Originally by: Reluthan Eldom Originally by: Sophie Daigneau Experimental labs are now seeded on the market, but Ancient Relics are not. Can we get the Ancient relics seeded so we can start testing the reverse engineering process? Ancient Relics have been on the market for at least a week... Thanks, needed to look a little harder, found them. Running off a couple hundred rounds now.
Reluthan Eldom Really Bad Eggs	Posted - 2009.02.20 19:43:00 - [129] The suckiest thing about T3 building may be that experimental labs have only 1 reverse engineering slot and no other slot types.
Rivqua Caldari Omega Wing R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2009.02.20 23:24:00 - [130] could the resulting BPC's have many runs, so that wouldn't matter just as much? /Riv /Riv

Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.02.20 23:40:00 - [131] I have noticed that the hybrid tuner data interface is destroyed by reverse engineering jobs. Is that intended?
Kathryn Dougans Amarr B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm	Posted - 2009.02.21 01:23:00 - [132] Edited by: Kathryn Dougans on 21/02/2009 01:27:10 Edited by: Kathryn Dougans on 21/02/2009 01:26:17 Originally by: Reluthan Eldom The suckiest thing about T3 building may be that experimental labs have only 1 reverse engineering slot and no other slot types. It's only a 1 hour job, so you can have a fair amount queued up on the lab, and it doesn't take long to offline it to run a different lab in it's place if you want. Originally by: Rivqua could the resulting BPC's have many runs, so that wouldn't matter just as much? /Riv Thus far, I've got 3 run ship BPCs. Originally by: Space Wanderer I have noticed that the hybrid tuner data interface is destroyed by reverse engineering jobs. Is that intended? I asked and an ISD guy said to bugreport it, so i'm guessing that it's probably not intended. I reverse engineered 9 hull parts so far. 3 intact hulls, 3 malfunctioning, 3 wrecked. Got 2 Legion bpcs, of 3 runs each, and 7 Amarr ship engineering datacores, which seems to be one of the potential outcomes of the process. "Failed but got 1 datacore". Another tester reported that Intact Armour nanobots can fail to produce anything. Don't ask me about the cows.

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2009.02.21 14:30:00 - [133] Originally by: Space Wanderer I have noticed that the hybrid tuner data interface is destroyed by reverse engineering jobs. Is that intended? Yes, I realise it is slightly confusing as we have kept the naming conventions the same as the mechanics are similar but also very different. I am probably going to change it such that the decryptors are consumed as well. I like consumption, creates demand :)


CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2009.02.21 14:35:00 - [134] The original post has been updated to comment on changes in the latest build. The main thing that will be changing in the next update is the subsystem and hull material requirements have been altered to make the subsystems much cheaper and the hulls more expensive. The intention being that you can better afford to have multiple subsystem variations in your hangar. Polymer volumes have also been changed so the harvesting rate for the more common gases should be faster.

Reluthan Eldom Really Bad Eggs	Posted - 2009.02.21 14:50:00 - [135] Originally by: Kathryn Dougans Originally by: Reluthan Eldom The suckiest thing about T3 building may be that experimental labs have only 1 reverse engineering slot and no other slot types. It's only a 1 hour job, so you can have a fair amount queued up on the lab, and it doesn't take long to offline it to run a different lab in it's place if you want. That's not the point. Queueing things up takes up my character's lab slots without parallelizing production. Currently I can run all 11 of my character's lab slots with 2 mobile labs doing 5x invention in each one and using the spare slot for a copy or ME operation those labs give me as well. If I queued up reverse engineering then not only would I have to deal with the suck of 1 reverse engineering slot per lab (and that lab ahs the same POS fit requirement as the existing labs which provide much more utility, I might add) I'd also be decreasing my total throughput by a factor of 11 and losing all my t2 productivity. If CCP wants t3 to be used as naything more than hangar candy by very wealthy individuals this issue of throughput is going to need to be resolved. In a reasonable large POS setup I can get something like 60 invention slots plus ME, PE, and copy that come along free for the ride and have everything I need to turn t2 components into t2 ships, or I can get 12 reverse engineering slots and have to anchor another tower for the subsystem arrays I need to turn t3 components into ships. I think there is an argument to be made that t3 requires less POS infrastructure in the lead-up to components since for t2 I need a lot of moon mining POS, 2 stages of reactions, and then component building versus t3 I only need one reaction stage and no moon mining before component building, but if this is the argument that is beign made and the 1-slot experimental labs are essentially trying to make t3 take as many POS as t2 does then I think that's a mistake given how much people in general hate managing tons of POS.
Verys The Black Ops Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.21 14:53:00 - [136] Edited by: Verys on 21/02/2009 14:55:03 Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: Space Wanderer I have noticed that the hybrid tuner data interface is destroyed by reverse engineering jobs. Is that intended? Yes, I realise it is slightly confusing as we have kept the naming conventions the same as the mechanics are similar but also very different. I am probably going to change it such that the decryptors are consumed as well. I like consumption, creates demand :) So just a question is this going to lead to hybrid tuner interfaces AND the decryptor being destroyed in the reverse engineering process? If so i think reverse engineering is going to be very very expensive since there will be very high demand for the tuner interfaces. If we compare it to the current game mechanics yes the current tuner interfaces are cheap but this only because there is no demand for t2 rig invention (and the fact that they sell for less then if you sold the components seperately). I would rather see an increase of the ammount of datacores used up in reverse engineering than this. Also keep in mind with this that the price for keeping up a pos with these labs can turn out quite expensive in fuel costs since not everyone owns a caldari outpost.
Reluthan Eldom Really Bad Eggs	Posted - 2009.02.21 15:30:00 - [137] Originally by: Verys Also keep in mind with this that the price for keeping up a pos with these labs can turn out quite expensive in fuel costs since not everyone owns a caldari outpost. Yes, this. This is sort of what I was getting at with the 1-slot lab comment above, too. The cost of reverse engienering is pretty high when you take all this into account, but perhaps it's intended that serious t3 production require outposts? That would be interesting since it's the reverse of the current situation where POSes are required for the high-end and even when outposts can do the same functions they don't scale up in volume nearly as well. How many reverse engineering slots does a Caldari outpost have?
Kayn Otar Samurai Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.21 17:36:00 - [138] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: Space Wanderer I have noticed that the hybrid tuner data interface is destroyed by reverse engineering jobs. Is that intended? Yes, I realize it is slightly confusing as we have kept the naming conventions the same as the mechanics are similar but also very different. I am probably going to change it such that the decryptors are consumed as well. I like consumption, creates demand :) How about a "Runs" counter, like with blueprint copies? They are still consumable, but it would relieve some of the demand pressure. Heck, you could even do that with the normal data interfaces, and increase the success rate of invention. That would certainly make invention less frustrating.
Verys The Black Ops Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.21 20:34:00 - [139] Edited by: Verys on 21/02/2009 20:33:59 What I have encountered in reverse engineering so far: - With intact items I have only reproduced 1 BPC (on 12 jobs) while I got a lot of datacores back. This is a really low number. What I actually would like to see is a basic success rate depending on the damage of the component and skills for bringing the success rate up. Say like this: Intact component - 100% success rate Damaged component - 80% success rate Wrecked component - 60% success rate Skillwise Reverse engineering - +2.5% bonus to success rate per lvl (max 10% bonus) "Component" Subsystem Technology - 1% bonus to success rate per lvl (max 5% bonus) This leaves damaged components up to a max rate of 95 and wrecked up to 70 I feel that this would end up in a balanced research process which still incorporates basic chance.
Rivqua Caldari Omega Wing R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2009.02.21 20:41:00 - [140] Originally by: Verys Edited by: Verys on 21/02/2009 20:37:46 What I have encountered in reverse engineering so far: - With intact items I have only reproduced 1 BPC (on 12 jobs with intact components) while I got a lot of datacores back. This is a really low number. What I actually would like to see is a basic success rate depending on the damage of the component and skills for bringing the success rate up. Say like this: Intact component - 100% success rate Damaged component - 80% success rate Wrecked component - 60% success rate Skillwise Reverse engineering - +2.5% bonus to success rate per lvl (max 10% bonus) "Component" Subsystem Technology - 1% bonus to success rate per lvl (max 5% bonus) This leaves damaged components up to a max rate of 95 and wrecked up to 70 I feel that this would end up in a balanced research process which still incorporates basic chance. What kind of skills are required for reverse engineering at the labs ? Any chance to get a list? /Riv /Riv

Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.02.21 23:59:00 - [141] Edited by: Space Wanderer on 22/02/2009 00:00:03 I played a bit with reverse engineering. Apparently all the blueprints I have obtained (about 10) are all for "XXX subsystem 3" (tried with weapon subsystem and engineering subsystem for the moment). Am I missing something in the reverse engineering process or is there some random generator stuck at number 3?
Kathryn Dougans Amarr B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm	Posted - 2009.02.22 00:38:00 - [142] Edited by: Kathryn Dougans on 22/02/2009 00:44:52 Originally by: Reluthan Eldom That's not the point. If you did have 11 labs running, could you support the output from them with 11 manufacturing slots? Originally by: Space Wanderer Apparently all the blueprints I have obtained (about 10) are all for "XXX subsystem 3" (tried with weapon subsystem and engineering subsystem for the moment). Am I missing something in the reverse engineering process or is there some random generator stuck at number 3? Hmm, also got bpcs for subsystem 3. Interesting. What skills did you have? Originally by: Verys What I have encountered in reverse engineering so far: - With intact items I have only reproduced 1 BPC (on 12 jobs with intact components) while I got a lot of datacores back. This is a really low number. Interesting. What systems were you doing? With hull sections, I got slightly more bpcs from intact than malfunctioning and wrecked. But so far, for other things, wrecked and malfunctioning has given bpcs, while intact hasnt. Intact gave more datacores when failing though. Only 30 hull sections (10 of each), 30 power cores (10 of each) done so far though, so it's a tiny sample. Don't ask me about the cows.
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.02.22 00:51:00 - [143] Originally by: Kathryn Dougans Originally by: Space Wanderer Apparently all the blueprints I have obtained (about 10) are all for "XXX subsystem 3" (tried with weapon subsystem and engineering subsystem for the moment). Am I missing something in the reverse engineering process or is there some random generator stuck at number 3? Hmm, also got bpcs for subsystem 3. Interesting. What skills did you have? Various. For gallente engineering systems: engineering subsystem tech: 2 mechanical eng: 4 reverse eng: 2 For caldari offensive systems: offensive subsystem tech: 2 plasma physics: 3 reverse eng: 2
Verys The Black Ops Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.22 02:02:00 - [144] Originally by: Kathryn Dougans Edited by: Kathryn Dougans on 22/02/2009 00:44:52 Interesting. What systems were you doing? With hull sections, I got slightly more bpcs from intact than malfunctioning and wrecked. But so far, for other things, wrecked and malfunctioning has given bpcs, while intact hasnt. Intact gave more datacores when failing though. Only 30 hull sections (10 of each), 30 power cores (10 of each) done so far though, so it's a tiny sample. I was doing thrusters but new results (about an hour ago) gave me 3 bpc's out of 6 sections. Although I can recall in an older blog/post they wanted to remove the chance base out of tech 3 and only give players an award chance so there is a big chance to obtain subsystem 1 blueprints but a small chance to obtain subsystem 5 blueprints. This also leads to a 100% succes rate on any reverse engineering. I actually support this because other factors, such as aquiring all the correct materials (fullerenes, salvage) and the production steps, will make up for a high ISK price itself. Also as stated by previous comments I only have had subsystem 3 bpc results.
Pytria Le'Danness Placid Reborn	Posted - 2009.02.22 13:22:00 - [145] Edited by: Pytria Le''Danness on 22/02/2009 13:24:21 Starting to test polymer reaction right now. Aside from getting the distinct feeling that whoever designed the POS mechanics never had to set up a POS himself - has anyone noticed that this stuff is going to be annoying as hell? Gasses are 10m per unit. You need two in BioChem silos, each of which holds 20k m. Thus you can put 2000 units into each. The reaction takes 100 units per cycle, depleting the silos in 20 hours. This means someone has to babysit the POS and visit it every day (actually less than that) to keep the reaction running 24/7. Even if you take a Gallente tower that in theory doubles silo capacity (when I took my last POS down on TQ this was still bugged, I am not sure if it is atm) this means you have to drop by every two days. Who is going to be willing to do that? Besides, the gas size more or less rules out the "Install a POS in WH space for T3 production" idea since persistent storage of fulleride gasses will take a HUGE amount of space. Granted, I don't know how much storage space the corp hangar offers, but supposedly that's needed for modules and ships. Corporation RP channel: "PlacidReborn"
misters Sviests	Posted - 2009.02.22 14:08:00 - [146] Edited by: misters Sviests on 22/02/2009 14:08:37 I expect, reverse engineering slot can't be shared with alliance members, only with corportion members (same as invention slots). However, hope dies last. Does any tried to share reverse enginering slot with alliance members? Or may be CCP can answer?
Horchan Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.22 17:44:00 - [147] Originally by: misters Sviests I expect, reverse engineering slot can't be shared with alliance members, only with corportion members (same as invention slots). However, hope dies last. Does any tried to share reverse enginering slot with alliance members? Or may be CCP can answer? Reverse engineering requires materials, thus it wouldn't be sharable to alliance members since they can't access the corp hangars in the Experimental Lab. --- DesuSigs
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.02.22 19:36:00 - [148] An update: I reverse engineered more subsystems. Still obtained ONLY racial XXX subsystem 3. Somebody's random generator needs a tweak, I think...
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.22 19:54:00 - [149] Originally by: Space Wanderer An update: I reverse engineered more subsystems. Still obtained ONLY racial XXX subsystem 3. Somebody's random generator needs a tweak, I think... I recall readying that the decryptors would determine the module produced. Have you tried using one?
Kathryn Dougans Amarr B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm	Posted - 2009.02.22 20:04:00 - [150] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Space Wanderer An update: I reverse engineered more subsystems. Still obtained ONLY racial XXX subsystem 3. Somebody's random generator needs a tweak, I think... I recall readying that the decryptors would determine the module produced. Have you tried using one? You need the hybrid racial decryptor to do the job to begin with. It's what determines if you get Amarr, Gallente etc. blueprints. Don't ask me about the cows.



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