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How accurate is EFT really?

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Dragonwell Ashen Rain	Posted - 2009.02.11 08:35:00 - [1] Edited by: Dragonwell on 11/02/2009 08:36:26 So I've managed to kill tens of minutes of my valuable free time fooling around with EFT as opposed to doing something constructive. You know, like making money in EVE. Who needs a girlfriend, anyway? Apparently the most recent version of EFT was released sometime in November 08 unless I'm mistaken. Since then I've seen some people say that suddenly, setups that WERE cap stable on live were no longer cap stable. One of the biggest things I use EFT for is determining what sort of cap stable setups I can field (And bear in mind that at this point I'm primarily at PVE / mission runner player - carebear, if you insist). Now I've got this alt that I originally intended as an industrial toon for manufacturing ammo, frigates and destroyers, and the like - whatever I need to make myself as self-sufficient as possible. I decided that since I somehow managed to say to myself "I'm going to make an indy toon" and put most of the points in Perc / Will, I'd just turn her into a Logistics pilot to back up my main while running L4s (Maybe even L5s eventually.) With this in mind I picked the Scimitar, given that my main is going to fly a Nightmare for L4s - raw shield tank. This is the setup that I came up with: http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/2168/logisticdu5.jpg Now if anyone cares to tell me that the stacking penalty on those Sensor Boosters and Tracking Links will probably be insane, feel free. The issue I'm raising here is that, standing back, this just doesn't LOOK RIGHT. FIVE remote modules and THREE shield transporters running on all-perfect skills and ONE Cap Relay II. Supposedly, it's stable at 62%. EFT's gotten something of a negative reputation, what with people trying to prove this or that argument with EFT... EFT warrioring I suppose it's called. Now surely this reputation isn't gained without reason, so I ask: how accurate is EFT really? Can this Scimitar setup seriously work in terms of cap stability? Yes, the setup is, overall, laughable, but it's got one purpose in mind and I'm using it as an example. Input appreciated. Flames and non-constructive posts aren't. -DW
techzer0 IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.02.11 08:42:00 - [2] With all level 5 skills... scimitar could very well get that kind of cap stablilty. Logistics are awesome. EFT gives your raw max number, like DPS and tankable DPS... or saying that a cap boosted setup runs stable. You can't take all of the numbers at face value, but you can use them as a starting point
Gallente trader10	Posted - 2009.02.11 08:44:00 - [3] Edited by: Gallente trader10 on 11/02/2009 08:46:25 looks just fine to me, but real men use large remote reppers. Thats why you're able to get "so many" remote modules fitted without breaking your capacitor, usually you fit 3-4 large shield transporters (when remote repping is the only job). and as techzer0 points out you cant trust the numbers at face value, since EFT takes all cap usage and deducts from max recharge. It does not account for rookie pilots activating all modules at the same time, so you CAN probably break your cap stability with bad piloting.
Dragonwell Ashen Rain	Posted - 2009.02.11 08:53:00 - [4] Originally by: Gallente trader10 Edited by: Gallente trader10 on 11/02/2009 08:46:25 looks just fine to me, but real men use large remote reppers. Thats why you're able to get "so many" remote modules fitted without breaking your capacitor, usually you fit 3-4 large shield transporters (when remote repping is the only job). and as techzer0 points out you cant trust the numbers at face value, since EFT takes all cap usage and deducts from max recharge. It does not account for rookie pilots activating all modules at the same time, so you CAN probably break your cap stability with bad piloting. I fiddled with the setup and swapped the lows to a nanofiber and three relays, and the highs to three Large Transporters. Still displays cap stability at 49%. As for the rookie pilot aspect, what would be the proper way to go about activating the modules? Should they be timed so that their cycles fit the cap recharge cycle? What's the approach here? Techzer0: I've never once flown a Logistic, so whatever awesomeness they possess is lost on me. d:
fivetide humidyear Gallente EXCESS10N	Posted - 2009.02.11 09:22:00 - [5] EFT gets a bad rap because people use the extremes it can produce to support arguments without considering the actual way you fly a ship. i've always found it to be accurate for fittings, cap stability can depend on activation order of modules but is generally a good guide. best thing to do is of course to test your setup :) and yeah, logisitics ships (especially with teh ship skill at 5) can perma run amazing amounts of remote reppers and such, level 5 in logistics is really worth the train.
anomalousresult	Posted - 2009.02.11 09:31:00 - [6] Try these two fittings. Given that the Tracking Enhancer I has a bonus to optimal of 10% and the T2 variant has a bonus of 15% which do you think will have the higher optimals from the turrets: [Crusader, T1 trackers] Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Tracking Enhancer I Tracking Enhancer I 1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [Crusader, T2 trackers] Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Is it just me or does T1 show as better?
achoura	Posted - 2009.02.11 09:34:00 - [7] Oh eft is still accurate, but the cap bug from '06 is back in the game *The EVE servers and their patches*
Dragonwell Ashen Rain	Posted - 2009.02.11 09:43:00 - [8] Just for fun, this is the Nightmare setup I have planned out with the Scimitar in support. Note the defense rating (Also, the Nightmare is cap stable at 50% with the X-L booster running.) http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/324/logistics2hp5.jpg I'll have to look at those Crusader setups. One thing I did notice in the above setup is that my Tachyons showed as having over 47,000km optimal. Sniper, anyone?
Rivqua Caldari Omega Wing R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2009.02.11 09:51:00 - [9] Originally by: Dragonwell Edited by: Dragonwell on 11/02/2009 08:36:26 So I've managed to kill tens of minutes of my valuable free time fooling around with EFT as opposed to doing something constructive. You know, like making money in EVE. Who needs a girlfriend, anyway? Apparently the most recent version of EFT was released sometime in November 08 unless I'm mistaken. Since then I've seen some people say that suddenly, setups that WERE cap stable on live were no longer cap stable. One of the biggest things I use EFT for is determining what sort of cap stable setups I can field (And bear in mind that at this point I'm primarily at PVE / mission runner player - carebear, if you insist). Now I've got this alt that I originally intended as an industrial toon for manufacturing ammo, frigates and destroyers, and the like - whatever I need to make myself as self-sufficient as possible. I decided that since I somehow managed to say to myself "I'm going to make an indy toon" and put most of the points in Perc / Will, I'd just turn her into a Logistics pilot to back up my main while running L4s (Maybe even L5s eventually.) With this in mind I picked the Scimitar, given that my main is going to fly a Nightmare for L4s - raw shield tank. This is the setup that I came up with: http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/2168/logisticdu5.jpg Now if anyone cares to tell me that the stacking penalty on those Sensor Boosters and Tracking Links will probably be insane, feel free. The issue I'm raising here is that, standing back, this just doesn't LOOK RIGHT. FIVE remote modules and THREE shield transporters running on all-perfect skills and ONE Cap Relay II. Supposedly, it's stable at 62%. EFT's gotten something of a negative reputation, what with people trying to prove this or that argument with EFT... EFT warrioring I suppose it's called. Now surely this reputation isn't gained without reason, so I ask: how accurate is EFT really? Can this Scimitar setup seriously work in terms of cap stability? Yes, the setup is, overall, laughable, but it's got one purpose in mind and I'm using it as an example. Input appreciated. Flames and non-constructive posts aren't. -DW EFT is still perfectly fine, as the game cap mechanics have not changed, but the cap UI display is broken, so somtimes it can display full cap when you are almost empty and such. /Riv
Brodde Dim Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2009.02.11 11:02:00 - [10] Originally by: anomalousresult Try these two fittings. Given that the Tracking Enhancer I has a bonus to optimal of 10% and the T2 variant has a bonus of 15% which do you think will have the higher optimals from the turrets: [Crusader, T1 trackers] Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Tracking Enhancer I Tracking Enhancer I 1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [Crusader, T2 trackers] Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Is it just me or does T1 show as better? Its definately a bug. T1 unnamed tracking enhancer has 4 parameters each for optimal and tracking en EFT. All the other TE's have only 3. (No idea what they stand for though, the extra parameter is covering all turret types).
baltec1 Antares Shipyards	Posted - 2009.02.11 11:06:00 - [11] EFT is good for seeing how well your cap does and if everything fits. Nothing more.
Nienna Fael Sininen Talo	Posted - 2009.02.11 11:12:00 - [12] Your nightmare is... terrible. You don't go and fit a ship worth a billion with T1 mods. If you want to keep it mostly "cheap", I'd go with something like this. Last 2 high slots whatever you want. Even this is pretty much overtanked. The midslot tank is a bit up for graps, you might want to get a faction / ds booster and swap to an omnitank, saving you some effort when selecting missions. The amount of dps that nightmare puts out, especially when packed with a shield logistics ship means you have no need for a tank. [Nightmare, Tachy] Dark Blood Heat Sink Dark Blood Heat Sink Dark Blood Heat Sink Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II 100MN Afterburner II X-Large Shield Booster II Shield Boost Amplifier II Photon Scattering Field II Photon Scattering Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5
Misina Arlath Amarr	Posted - 2009.02.11 11:38:00 - [13] If you don't trust EFT, here's the old skool way of doing it. Buy ship. Fit ship with modules you want (yes, buy the frigging modules) Fly to roid belt. Target roid. Shoot, neut, rep, scramble, web, repair or whatever on the roid while orbiting. Monitor, time and analyze the duration of your cap until dry, or at which stage it remains stable. So far, every cap stable setup I've made in EFT has proven to be accurate when I test it in-game using the roids. But that applies to combat ships of various sizes and Tech levels, and not logistics. Anyways, there's your options. EFT, or roids. -------------------------------------------------- "Every complex problem has a solution which is easy, neat and wrong!"
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.11 12:26:00 - [14] Edited by: Akita T on 11/02/2009 12:27:09 Originally by: Dragonwell EFT's gotten something of a negative reputation, what with people trying to prove this or that argument with EFT... EFT warrioring I suppose it's called. Now surely this reputation isn't gained without reason A perfect example of negative EFT-warrioring : " 2059 passive drake tank ? ". Other than that, EFT is pretty spot on on the numbers, with next to no errors whatsoever. Now, how one interprets those numbers, that's another problem, and that's where the negative reputation comes from. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.11 12:41:00 - [15] If you wanna screw around its ok. Also if you wanna see if you have the skills to fit (cpu/pg skills ect) and fly a ship its good, but it does not show the reality of TQ combat. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.02.11 12:42:00 - [16] It's close enough for jazz.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.11 13:06:00 - [17] EFT is fine, how EFT will adapt to T3 is another matter :). But I belive EFT's creator will manage it :).
Zaiyo Modi Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.11 13:17:00 - [18] What is EFT? I suggest people start to type the proper name first, then use the acronyms later on in the text :(
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2009.02.11 13:20:00 - [19] Originally by: Zaiyo Modi What is EFT? I suggest people start to type the proper name first, then use the acronyms later on in the text :( The name EFT is so commonly used that everyone is expected to know about it. :)
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2009.02.11 13:57:00 - [20] Edited by: Gartel Reiman on 11/02/2009 13:59:48 EFT. And actually, with the T1 vs T2 TEs above; I get 12+1.9 range with T1 TEs, and 13+1.9 range with T2 TEs. Sounds about right to me.
Brodde Dim Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2009.02.11 16:33:00 - [21] Originally by: Gartel Reiman Edited by: Gartel Reiman on 11/02/2009 13:59:48 EFT. And actually, with the T1 vs T2 TEs above; I get 12+1.9 range with T1 TEs, and 13+1.9 range with T2 TEs. Sounds about right to me. In 2.9.1? I just downloaded the latest version again to make sure. And I still have the same bug with T1 unnamed TE.
Dragonwell Ashen Rain	Posted - 2009.02.11 19:01:00 - [22] Originally by: Nienna Fael Your nightmare is... terrible. You don't go and fit a ship worth a billion with T1 mods. If you want to keep it mostly "cheap", I'd go with something like this. Last 2 high slots whatever you want. Even this is pretty much overtanked. The midslot tank is a bit up for graps, you might want to get a faction / ds booster and swap to an omnitank, saving you some effort when selecting missions. The amount of dps that nightmare puts out, especially when packed with a shield logistics ship means you have no need for a tank. [Nightmare, Tachy] Dark Blood Heat Sink Dark Blood Heat Sink Dark Blood Heat Sink Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II 100MN Afterburner II X-Large Shield Booster II Shield Boost Amplifier II Photon Scattering Field II Photon Scattering Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Fair enough. At the moment, though, I'm still doing some skilling, so some T2 modules are out of reach (Particularly the guns.) Also, my alt is as of yet nowhere near flying that Scimitar, so I opted for a permarun Nightmare until said alt can fly the logistic. Indeed, I'd opt for an omnitank in any event. The resists are still solid even with just two invulns. I notice you have AN ammo loaded into those guns. A while back I saw someone arguing a case for either T2 or faction crystals, and which lasted longer (therefore being more cash-efficient). I can't for the life of me find that post - so which lasts longer, T2 or faction? Thanks for the replies. My trust in EFT is somewhat renewed. Any further input on the Scimitar or Nightmare setups is welcome. *** Awake in a Space-Dye Vest Struggling with Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence Falling Into Infinity toward a New Millennium While trapped inside this Octavarium.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.02.11 19:45:00 - [23] Nightmare really doesn't need a permatank. get the logistics alt into some sort of damage dealing ship, really you are better off with another ship supporting you with damage, and a remote rep or two, than having a character sitting around in a logistics. nightmare tanking and a golem with large shield transporter tanks angels extra bonus room fine. 547 dps on a nightmare, you need to work on your gunnery/caldari bs skills a bit
Nienna Fael Sininen Talo	Posted - 2009.02.11 19:58:00 - [24] There`s absolutely no reason not to use Faction crystals on a Nightmare. 1 Faction cry lasts exactly 4000 shots. T2 cry lasts on average 1000 shots if I recall correctly, but can last from 100 shot to a lifetime. A rack of faction crys cost about 4-6 mil and speed up your mission time considerably.
Esamir	Posted - 2009.02.11 20:10:00 - [25] Originally by: Nienna Fael 1 Faction cry lasts exactly 4000 shots. On a decent Nightmare, that's about 25 million HP of damage for a rack of 4 :)
Impolite Andevil The Shadow Knights Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2009.02.11 20:26:00 - [26] If you can't run t2 tachs on the Nightmare, use Amarr Navy or an equivalent faction laser. They are a massive step up from t1 and have much better cap stability than t2. And yes, use the faction crystals. They are not that expensive and they make a big difference. The Nightmare is a very fun ship for missions. You will enjoy it.
Ancy Denaries Caldari Solaris Operations	Posted - 2009.02.12 07:08:00 - [27] What the ... cap stable Nightmare with an XL booster? Are you nuts? Half your stuff must go to cap alone. Fit your nightmare like this: 1-2x T2 Power Diagnostics System (OR 1x T2 Damage Control Unit) 3-4x True Sansha / Amarr Navy Heatsinks 1x XL booster, preferrably faction. 2x Shield Boost Amplifiers, also faction/deadspace 2x T2 / Dread Guristas Invulnerability Fields 1x EM hardener 1x Therm Hardener 4x Amarr Navy Tachyons with Amarr Navy Multifreq Get proper hardwirings. Now go laugh. With your scimitar helping, you should never need to run the shield booster on the nightmare. It's there for those "OH SHHHH! moments. ----- Why doesn't anyone ever read the forums before posting? EVE is a PvP game. Adaptation is your survival.
Cfiloruz Xilocient Amarr Umbra Legion Shadow Empire.	Posted - 2009.02.12 11:33:00 - [28] Edited by: Cfiloruz Xilocient on 12/02/2009 11:34:55 about EFT: not about nightmare but EFT facts about CAP STABLE (amarrian experience) 1. i have flown little under 3 min (BY EFT) ships in l4 missions solo without problems (tho they could be capped out in 6-7 min. 2. I have yet to cap out 7 minute stable paladin in a mission. (and trust me i have tried to leave target switchings as short as possible running repper at all times i have gotten it under peak recharge but missions tend to end sooner than actual capout) 3. with a eft sustainable tank of 75 retribution (assault frig) can tank effortlessly level 4 missions. (not that hes shooting did much damage compared to BS, but tank held sansha blockade 2'nd wave until he kept moving standing stil hurts. 4. DPS in EFT does NOT include moving targets and trackings and stuff. but it Is a indicator. 900dps in eft performs better usually in game than lets say 500 dps ship. but it does not mean you WILL make 900 dps constantly. Other than that. Good luck with Nightmare. And you wont need logistics. Shields of Mare hold fine and what you cant hold is dead before you need to worry. its an Awsome ship *p.s. its Vertical... how awsome is that Low skills and high standing IS a problem.
TimMc Gallente Extradition	Posted - 2009.02.12 11:57:00 - [29] Fit the nightmare for insane resists and damage, let the logistics do all the repping rather than gimping the nightmare with its own cap stable tank.
DeathsEmbrace Minmatar The Renegades Asylum DEFI4NT	Posted - 2009.02.12 12:11:00 - [30] Four lvl 4 missioning, theres no need for a logi boat on a normal bs, let alone the nightmare. Omni tank is personal prferance, though by going rat spec you can reduce the needs of your tank e.g. LSB 3 bcu raven cookie cutter fit, as opposed to the xl perma running raven. For lvl 5 missioning your already putting yourself at a disadvantage taking a cap heavy boat in. Lvl5's have a lot of neutage. A full passive nightmare may be able to tank it, but you'll never be able to lay down your dps with your guns capped out. The best boat you could use for 5's is the nighthawk completely passive (passive hardners not active). Logistics, I think goes without out saying, necessary for most sub caps in lvl5's. Wether thats rr bs's or logi boats. looking at your simi fit I'm not sure what your trying to achieve. That fit is a bit mixed on goals. Its similar to the pre qr nano simi fit for pvp, not pve. Logistics come in two varieties. Fleet boats (bassilsk and guardian) or Roaming boats (scimi and onerios). For pure repage the fleet variety are far better than the roaming, however the roaming have more flexibilty in their fitting options. You should take this into account when considering what to train as you said you weren't there yet. With referance to your dps boat that comes to the scimi and bassi. You have 2 utilty slots onthe nightmare and your beam fit. Loose the active tank, fit buffer/resist, fit remote shield reps/cap transfer and sit a bassi right night to it jobs a good un. To live is to die, and to die is to give life. Thus pain is a form of euphoria.

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