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Hey CCP - A quick logic puzzle for you

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Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:29:00 - [1] Edited by: Silence Duegood on 11/02/2009 22:38:06 Let's say we have implemented this new stat redistribution plan on SiSi, and we can min/max our attribute points in any fashion twice a year - let's take the following scenario - Scenario - Day One - We max Perc and Will (let's say 33 and 26.4 respectively) During this period we train only Perc/Will skills Six Months later - We max Int and Mem During this period we train only Int/Mem skills Six Months later still - We max Will and Perc During this period we train only Will/Perc skills. Conclusion - How is the above scenario any different than a game that includes only two attributes instead of five where everyone can have max'd (and therefore optimal) attributes for any given training period? - Basically, if this change takes place, everyone has relevant max'd stats at all times, and any difference between players is no more than cosmetic.
Jared D'Uroth	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:30:00 - [2] This is so dumb. It's Atari's fault too :(
Agrigan	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:30:00 - [3] Edited by: Agrigan on 11/02/2009 22:34:15 I think I know the answer... is it two bananas? I'm usually really good at these logic problems. Actually, I do agree with the OP. Respecs should be allowed, but they should be VERY expensive. Why not forget the 6 month rule and just make it harder and harder to do. Example in ISK: First time - 1 X Current SP Secont time - 2 X Current SP Third time - 4 X Current SP fourth time - 8 X Current SP and so on... This would allow young players to experiment with attributes without getting totally screwed, and old players to respect at a reasonable price a few times if needed for future expansions and such.
Kirov Reporting	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:31:00 - [4] its a choice to use this upcoming feature, just like it is a choice to train learning skills
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:32:00 - [5] Originally by: Kirov Reporting its a choice to use this upcoming feature, just like it is a choice to train learning skills Opting out doesn't make the change irrelevant.
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar pSyChOTIC CareBears BrightSpark Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:34:00 - [6] Sounds like witchcraft to me. BURN HER!
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:44:00 - [7] You are limiting yourself to train only skills with specific attribute bases and are not training the skills you need to have the most fun. Sure, if you want to wait three years until you farmed up your char to a state you can have fun playing, go on, but for anyone with a functioning sanity your scenario is simply a stupid way to do things. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Ramotir Vahla Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:45:00 - [8] Fine then, keep your stats as close as possible to what they are now next month.
teoliit	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:47:00 - [9] Just because you get more SP / hour that way doesn't mean you have to do it Stop whining, you'll always have more SP than new players anyway
Agrigan	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:53:00 - [10] I don't think the OP's point is that people will gain skills faster, the OP is merely concerned that CCP is removing depth from the game, homogenizing avatars, and perhaps reducing immersion in new players. I think repecs should definitely be more thought out then just to let people do it regularly without consequence.

Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:53:00 - [11] Originally by: teoliit Just because you get more SP / hour that way doesn't mean you have to do it Stop whining, you'll always have more SP than new players anyway A. How is stating facts whining? Please point out some whine in my OP. Thanks. B. If you had a solid grasp of the game you'd realize how older players (who spend far more time training fewer higher level skills) will gain much more from this change than newer players (who spend more time training far more lower level skills). If you're trying to help newer players than use your brain and figure the problem out in my OP.
Agrigan	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:58:00 - [12] I'm still pretty sure the answer is 2 bananas
Coronae Borealis	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:59:00 - [13] Originally by: Silence Duegood Edited by: Silence Duegood on 11/02/2009 22:38:06 Let's say we have implemented this new stat redistribution plan on SiSi, and we can min/max our attribute points in any fashion twice a year - let's take the following scenario - Scenario - Day One - We max Perc and Will (let's say 33 and 26.4 respectively) During this period we train only Perc/Will skills Six Months later - We max Int and Mem During this period we train only Int/Mem skills Six Months later still - We max Will and Perc During this period we train only Will/Perc skills. Conclusion - How is the above scenario any different than a game that includes only two attributes instead of five where everyone can have max'd (and therefore optimal) attributes for any given training period? - Basically, if this change takes place, everyone has relevant max'd stats at all times, and any difference between players is no more than cosmetic. What CCP wants is that there isn't caldari achuras 90% of new edens population. Current bloodline system with fixed attributes is boring and stupid. It favours only handfull of bloodlines. And for the last time... YOU CAN'T MAX OUT YOUR ATTRIBUTES You still create a character when you join. It will have base attributes, like now. After six months you can move some of them. Let's say that you have 24 int and 20 mem. Then you have 12 charisma and 14 willpower. You can't switch those around. You can improve the charisma and willpower, but you can't max out them as it's falsely stated in these forums by emoragewhiners.
Stardust CEO Stardust Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.02.11 23:03:00 - [14] What I got out of this post was that older players will be able to min/max their attributes without too much hassle, because it's easier for them to drop 6 months of training in the same category. New players, however, will not be able to train in this manner, if they wish to have any 'balance.' This is a legitimate concern, although not something I'm too worried about. Also, saying "just don't do it if you don't like it" only works when you're not competing with those who WILL do it regardless.
Coronae Borealis	Posted - 2009.02.11 23:05:00 - [15] Originally by: Stardust CEO What I got out of this post was that older players will be able to min/max their attributes without too much hassle, because it's easier for them to drop 6 months of training in the same category. New players, however, will not be able to train in this manner, if they wish to have any 'balance.' This is a legitimate concern, although not something I'm too worried about. Also, saying "just don't do it if you don't like it" only works when you're not competing with those who WILL do it regardless. New players also can't fly Ishtar or Titan. But old players can...
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.11 23:06:00 - [16] Originally by: Coronae Borealis Originally by: Silence Duegood Edited by: Silence Duegood on 11/02/2009 22:38:06 Let's say we have implemented this new stat redistribution plan on SiSi, and we can min/max our attribute points in any fashion twice a year - let's take the following scenario - Scenario - Day One - We max Perc and Will (let's say 33 and 26.4 respectively) During this period we train only Perc/Will skills Six Months later - We max Int and Mem During this period we train only Int/Mem skills Six Months later still - We max Will and Perc During this period we train only Will/Perc skills. Conclusion - How is the above scenario any different than a game that includes only two attributes instead of five where everyone can have max'd (and therefore optimal) attributes for any given training period? - Basically, if this change takes place, everyone has relevant max'd stats at all times, and any difference between players is no more than cosmetic. What CCP wants is that there isn't caldari achuras 90% of new edens population. Current bloodline system with fixed attributes is boring and stupid. It favours only handfull of bloodlines. And for the last time... YOU CAN'T MAX OUT YOUR ATTRIBUTES You still create a character when you join. It will have base attributes, like now. After six months you can move some of them. Let's say that you have 24 int and 20 mem. Then you have 12 charisma and 14 willpower. You can't switch those around. You can improve the charisma and willpower, but you can't max out them as it's falsely stated in these forums by emoragewhiners. You most certainly can max out your attributes. However, the difference from one given player to the next will only be the range of base attributes. So, yes, there will be variety. However, my point (which still stands for anyone willing to notice it) is that this change will completely homogenize any current differences, and the only differences remaining at any given time will be the difference in base attributes, which is rather small given implants and learning skills. Think of it this way, at any given time you can ask any given player in local, 'Hey, what two attributes are you maxing out now?'.
Agrigan	Posted - 2009.02.11 23:08:00 - [17] Will there be ANY penalty to swapping attributes? I heard 5 million isk, which to be honest isn't a real penalty.
Sieessenschwanz	Posted - 2009.02.11 23:12:00 - [18] For the longest time I thanked my lucky starts that I happened to pick pretty decent stats for my character from day one. There were several times where I really wished I had specced differently, but in the end I'm mostly glad they're the way they are. But the total lack of ability to fix any of that has been irritating and added nothing to the game by disallowing it. So this is a good change. As with all game changes, the simple question needs asked, "What does this add to the game?" And if the answer isn't a net positive one, it needs to go. This adds the ability to correct skill point misshaps for every player. The ability to specialize for every player. The ability to change specializations for every player. It has the negative effect of ****ing off the vets who have lots of skill points even with low attributes in those areas. Or not as many skillpoints as they might have at this point. This affects only some veterans. Comes out way worth it, IMO (and my main has 38M SP). Hell, I'm looking forward to making him a social outcast. I can think of a few...
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.11 23:13:00 - [19] Edited by: Silence Duegood on 11/02/2009 23:16:41 Edited by: Silence Duegood on 11/02/2009 23:14:39 Originally by: Sieessenschwanz For the longest time I thanked my lucky starts that I happened to pick pretty decent stats for my character from day one. There were several times where I really wished I had specced differently, but in the end I'm mostly glad they're the way they are. But the total lack of ability to fix any of that has been irritating and added nothing to the game by disallowing it. So this is a good change. As with all game changes, the simple question needs asked, "What does this add to the game?" And if the answer isn't a net positive one, it needs to go. This adds the ability to correct skill point misshaps for every player. The ability to specialize for every player. The ability to change specializations for every player. It has the negative effect of **ing off the vets who have lots of skill points even with low attributes in those areas. Or not as many skillpoints as they might have at this point. This affects only some veterans. Comes out way worth it, IMO (and my main has 38M SP). Hell, I'm looking forward to making him a social outcast. I can think of a few... There's a major problem with your reasoning. I'll requote it here - You said - Quote:** The ability to specialize for every player. The ability to change specializations for every player. Specialization that can be changed or redirected isn't specialization. Your two statements are utterly contradictory. Simple fix - Allow one attribute respec per character. Ever. Done. PS. And as I've stated, us vets have a LOT more to gain out of this than newer players.
Jalif Black Sinisters Freedom of Elbas	Posted - 2009.02.11 23:14:00 - [20] Eve isn't anymore about the skills Eve is now more about what you can do with those skills. Basicly, CCP is rewarding the players who are smart. (If you don't understand this, you don't belong to the last group)

Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.02.11 23:46:00 - [21] conclusion, because if fotm swings, new skills occur and you are speced out for the wrong thing you get screwed. hell I just wanna fly damn near everything, so a few months of support skills (hell i'm just about speced out for int/mem and int/per skills already) followed by millions and millions of spaceship command. my goal is every cruiser and battleship 5, with tech 2 guns/launchers. probably even do amarr carrier and dread in there. that said I have a buttload of shorter skills to do that are all over the place, probably use the first week or two of apoh just to get them out of the way. hell maybe even go max out cha/wp for a while, max out on leadership skills I would love at least 1 respec from not knowing what did what on game start. my alt is catching me
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.12 00:16:00 - [22] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton conclusion, because if fotm swings, new skills occur and you are speced out for the wrong thing you get screwed. hell I just wanna fly damn near everything, so a few months of support skills (hell i'm just about speced out for int/mem and int/per skills already) followed by millions and millions of spaceship command. my goal is every cruiser and battleship 5, with tech 2 guns/launchers. probably even do amarr carrier and dread in there. that said I have a buttload of shorter skills to do that are all over the place, probably use the first week or two of apoh just to get them out of the way. hell maybe even go max out cha/wp for a while, max out on leadership skills I would love at least 1 respec from not knowing what did what on game start. my alt is catching me I think one respec for every character is fine. Once. Ever. Period. More, at regular intervals, with the attribute and skill system in EVE is absolutely ridiculous.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.02.12 00:47:00 - [23] Make everything the same, make it less likely to make bad decisions by being able to correct them after to accomodate for the people who refuse to think before acting. There's a pattern somewhere.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp KenZoku	Posted - 2009.02.12 01:41:00 - [24] Edited by: Avon on 12/02/2009 01:42:21 The penalty for respecing should be recalculation of all your already trained skills in line with you new stats. Any skill which would be at a lower level should drop to that level, and any that would have trained to the same level or better should remain as they are. Problem solved. Respecing becomes a tweak, rather than a min/max paradise. アニメ漫画です
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Ex Cruoris Libertas	Posted - 2009.02.12 01:46:00 - [25] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 12/02/2009 01:42:21 The penalty for respecing should be recalculation of all your already trained skills in line with you new stats. Any skill which would be at a lower level should drop to that level, and any that would have trained to the same level or better should remain as they are. Problem solved. Respecing becomes a tweak, rather than a min/max paradise. this.
Irida Mershkov Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2009.02.12 01:47:00 - [26] They're still trying to work out those four sided rubik's cubes.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.02.12 01:53:00 - [27] I personally don't like the idea of infinite respecs every 6 months. However, I don't see it as a huge issue... -Min stats are 5, meaning min/maxing is a bit nerfed -Congratulations, you can restrict yourself to ONLY training skills requiring a specific set of attributes for 6 months. Celebrate, until you realize that SP total means precisely **** and that a smaller number of SP trained in a more useful skill > More SP in a crap skill. And you WILL have that happen, as no one really trains ONLY per/wil or INT/Mem or whatever skills for 6 months at a time except in very very rare circumstances (Character farming). I could see people placing some emphasis on their skills...for example, I personally have very high int and decent PER, with less memory and even less willpower, and some charisma. If I was looking to boost a certain type of skill a fair bit in the next 6 months I might drop a couple points here and add them there for a slight boost, but it would be nothing really major.
ghost st	Posted - 2009.02.12 01:54:00 - [28] Its fine as an isk sink, it should just be based on your sp/clone. Respeccing should be like 2x the xp, + you got to get a new clone.
Trebor Notlimah Lone Star EVE Group Veni Vidi Vici	Posted - 2009.02.12 01:58:00 - [29] I hear the OP doesn't even play EVE.
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.02.12 02:01:00 - [30] Originally by: Irida Mershkov They're still trying to work out those four sided rubik's cubes. Huh? A pyramid?

Kehmor Caldari Malevolent Emo Herders	Posted - 2009.02.12 02:03:00 - [31] I think the main point is being missed here which is: Give a ****? Success in this game rarely comes from sp. People will take advantage of this I'm sure, but who cares? Their exra willpower in a paticular 6 month slot isn't going to save them on the battle field. This change, while not neccesary, will subdue the people who accidently put points in to charisma, and then will very mildly be abused by people who can be bothered. - Violence isn't the answer, it is the question. The answer is yes.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2009.02.12 02:04:00 - [32] Um, okay - Infectious -
Del Narveux Dukes of Hazard	Posted - 2009.02.12 02:41:00 - [33] Nobodys saying there should be no respecs at all, what those of us who are opposing it are saying is doing them infinitely, every 6 months introduces more metagaming and provides absolutely no immersion or playability bonus over one or two one-off respecs. For the record, I do not like the skill system as I have made abundantly clear over the years. I do not like commoditization of SP and/or attributes either, nor addition of new skills. If CCP said the next patch will give everyone +100 to everything and be done with it, I'd be the biggest fan on the forums. But periodic respecs do not do that, in fact they do nothing but force everyone to respec or fall behind, just like people are forced to spend months training learning skills or never get anywhere. _________________ [IMAGE REMOVED] -- aka Cpt Bogus -- Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.12 03:38:00 - [34] Originally by: Kehmor I think the main point is being missed here which is: Give a ****? Success in this game rarely comes from sp. People will take advantage of this I'm sure, but who cares? Their exra willpower in a paticular 6 month slot isn't going to save them on the battle field. This change, while not neccesary, will subdue the people who accidently put points in to charisma, and then will very mildly be abused by people who can be bothered. What does this have to do with the OP? We're not talking about success on the 'battlefield'. We're talking about taking variety and flushing it down the toilet so we can have a more homogeneous 'WoW in Space'. How about you stick to the discussion and avoid the strawmen.
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2009.02.12 03:39:00 - [35] I'd have to go with three bananas. It would be patently obvious if the answer was 3 bananas and it would just be silly if the answer was only one banana.
Achmed TheTerrorist Black Serpent Technologies	Posted - 2009.02.12 03:53:00 - [36] Originally by: Hiroshima Jita I'd have to go with three bananas. It would be patently obvious if the answer was 3 bananas and it would just be silly if the answer was only one banana. This is incorrect, as... OMFG + ReSpec your attributes CLEARLY equals 2 bananas.
Agent Unknown Caldari Fist of Eargon	Posted - 2009.02.12 05:40:00 - [37] This is why people have alts... I didn't like my first character a week in, so I respeced and played Caldari instead (Gallente before). It's not difficult...if you want to try a new route, make an alt, or even a second character on your primary account if you can afford the SP loss on your main. Geee, I wonder why they put those character slots there! ----------------------------------- "What can go wrong, will go wrong."
Etria Issen Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.12 05:46:00 - [38] Originally by: Agent Unknown This is why people have alts... I didn't like my first character a week in, so I respeced and played Caldari instead (Gallente before). It's not difficult...if you want to try a new route, make an alt, or even a second character on your primary account if you can afford the SP loss on your main. Geee, I wonder why they put those character slots there! I do wonder that really. Given the fact you can only train skills on one per account alts on the same account actually mean you lose out over all. The only reason I can see for them is if you made a character and disliked it. But if you like one but want to try something new, yet want to keep 'using' the original, you really need to get a 2nd account...
Agent Unknown Caldari Fist of Eargon	Posted - 2009.02.12 05:51:00 - [39] Originally by: Etria Issen Originally by: Agent Unknown This is why people have alts... I didn't like my first character a week in, so I respeced and played Caldari instead (Gallente before). It's not difficult...if you want to try a new route, make an alt, or even a second character on your primary account if you can afford the SP loss on your main. Geee, I wonder why they put those character slots there! I do wonder that really. Given the fact you can only train skills on one per account alts on the same account actually mean you lose out over all. The only reason I can see for them is if you made a character and disliked it. But if you like one but want to try something new, yet want to keep 'using' the original, you really need to get a 2nd account... I kinda wish you could train on multiple characters on the account, but keep the restriction of not being able to login twice with the same account... ----------------------------------- "What can go wrong, will go wrong."
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.02.12 05:53:00 - [40] Reads the thread then looks at the ops sig. giggles inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan

Etria Issen Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.12 06:04:00 - [41] Originally by: Agent Unknown Originally by: Etria Issen Originally by: Agent Unknown This is why people have alts... I didn't like my first character a week in, so I respeced and played Caldari instead (Gallente before). It's not difficult...if you want to try a new route, make an alt, or even a second character on your primary account if you can afford the SP loss on your main. Geee, I wonder why they put those character slots there! I do wonder that really. Given the fact you can only train skills on one per account alts on the same account actually mean you lose out over all. The only reason I can see for them is if you made a character and disliked it. But if you like one but want to try something new, yet want to keep 'using' the original, you really need to get a 2nd account... I kinda wish you could train on multiple characters on the account, but keep the restriction of not being able to login twice with the same account... That'd be lovely really. I have a bad habit of rerolling alts in moments of boredom. But since I can only train skills on one account I... Haven't. For obvious reasons.
Nestor Troy	Posted - 2009.02.12 06:05:00 - [42] I totally agree with op. For example an old character training carrier level V just respecs his attributes with max possible perception/willpower and gets crazy sp/hour during that skill. The newer players like the op mentioned have to change skillsets and really don't benefit much from this until they have high rank level V skills to train. I do understand the frustration of some people having loads of charisma and I agree you should be able to tweak one attrib once. And then simply never again.
Agent Unknown Caldari Fist of Eargon	Posted - 2009.02.12 06:09:00 - [43] Originally by: Nestor Troy I totally agree with op. For example an old character training carrier level V just respecs his attributes with max possible perception/willpower and gets crazy sp/hour during that skill. The newer players like the op mentioned have to change skillsets and really don't benefit much from this until they have high rank level V skills to train. I do understand the frustration of some people having loads of charisma and I agree you should be able to tweak one attrib once. And then simply never again. What sucks is that charisma is completely useless to a new player...but is needed for corporation/social/trade skills later on. It becomes a royal pain ----------------------------------- "What can go wrong, will go wrong."
Etria Issen Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.12 06:10:00 - [44] Originally by: Nestor Troy I totally agree with op. For example an old character training carrier level V just respecs his attributes with max possible perception/willpower and gets crazy sp/hour during that skill. The newer players like the op mentioned have to change skillsets and really don't benefit much from this until they have high rank level V skills to train. I do understand the frustration of some people having loads of charisma and I agree you should be able to tweak one attrib once. And then simply never again. A high charisma makes missioning less painful. Though Charisma has no 'long-term' benefit or anything. Or if you PvP instead.
Insa Rexion Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ	Posted - 2009.02.12 07:49:00 - [45] Originally by: Nestor Troy I totally agree with op. For example an old character training carrier level V just respecs his attributes with max possible perception/willpower and gets crazy sp/hour during that skill. The newer players like the op mentioned have to change skillsets and really don't benefit much from this until they have high rank level V skills to train. I do understand the frustration of some people having loads of charisma and I agree you should be able to tweak one attrib once. And then simply never again. I agree with this, most folk are not grasping that tis will not be a boon to noobs that **es off vet....just the opposite. Noobs will no way in hell be able to take advantage of this in a min/max way but veterans will be able to and most likely will do so.. this is a noob nerf disguised as a buff. well mannered ah***
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.12 08:05:00 - [46] Originally by: 5pinDizzy Originally by: Irida Mershkov They're still trying to work out those four sided rubik's cubes. Huh? A pyramid? Troll or genuine idiot? Either way you will find your answer in the dev panel video of fanfest last year.
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2009.02.12 08:23:00 - [47] You always ask for receipts when you get a x-mas present don't you OP? And the answer is: grapes. - - - Originally by: CCP Prism X I can invent ways to get free candy for you where the implementation is so bad that you'd never want to see candy again in your whole life.
Jesslyn Daggererux Gallente SRIUS BISNIS	Posted - 2009.02.12 08:40:00 - [48] Buff Gallente
Iria Ahrens Amarr 101st Space Marine Force Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.02.12 08:53:00 - [49] Edited by: Iria Ahrens on 12/02/2009 08:54:48 Originally by: 5pinDizzy Originally by: Irida Mershkov They're still trying to work out those four sided rubik's cubes. Huh? A pyramid? Yes Iriba was probably being a troll, but there is such thing. Rubix does make one too. I had one as a kid, solved it the hard way. I was pretty proud of that at the time. Thought I was qualified for a cube, found out how wrong I was. -- Nobody expects the Amarr Inquisition!
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.02.12 08:54:00 - [50] Originally by: Kahega Amielden And you WILL have that happen, as no one really trains ONLY per/wil or INT/Mem or whatever skills for 6 months at a time except in very very rare circumstances (Character farming). I'll direct you to this post. It shouldn't be particularly hard to figure out training queues — not even good and fun training queues — that restrict themselves to two attributes. All the support stuff: Int/Mem. All the flying about/explody stuff: Per/Wil (or, gasp!, Wil/Per for the T2 ship classes). All science/industry stuff: Int/Mem. Sure, at the very beginning of your carreer, you probably want to mix it up a bit, but once you're past 10mil or so and have the baseline set, your assertion no longer rings true. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki

Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.02.12 09:00:00 - [51] Originally by: sg3s Troll or genuine idiot? Either way you will find your answer in the dev panel video of fanfest last year. Nah. Merely a poor choice of wording: a cube can't be four-sided, by very definition. Irida should have said four-panelled or some such. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Asuka Smith Gallente StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.02.12 11:16:00 - [52] Sounds to me like only people who do not understand how to min/max are in support of this... "who trains ONE type of skill for six months" I will tell you who, a pilot who wants to fly a HAC and have the gunnery skills to fit it. There is six months worth of training right there easy, errr make that four months I just respecced kekeke.
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2009.02.12 11:23:00 - [53] Originally by: Asuka Smith Sounds to me like only people who do not understand how to min/max are in support of this... "who trains ONE type of skill for six months" I will tell you who, a pilot who wants to fly a HAC and have the gunnery skills to fit it. There is six months worth of training right there easy, errr make that four months I just respecced kekeke. BS + t2 large will easily have you occupied for half a year. - - - Originally by: CCP Prism X I can invent ways to get free candy for you where the implementation is so bad that you'd never want to see candy again in your whole life.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.12 11:33:00 - [54] Originally by: Jalif Eve isn't anymore about the skills Eve is now more about what you can do with those skills. Basicly, CCP is rewarding the players who are smart. (If you don't understand this, you don't belong to the last group) No, CCP is rewarding those players who messed things up the first time around. Under the old system, players who read up on how the games worked and did a bit of thinking had an advantage. That will no longer be the case. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.12 11:35:00 - [55] Originally by: Insa Rexion Originally by: Nestor Troy I totally agree with op. For example an old character training carrier level V just respecs his attributes with max possible perception/willpower and gets crazy sp/hour during that skill. The newer players like the op mentioned have to change skillsets and really don't benefit much from this until they have high rank level V skills to train. I do understand the frustration of some people having loads of charisma and I agree you should be able to tweak one attrib once. And then simply never again. I agree with this, most folk are not grasping that tis will not be a boon to noobs that ***es off vet....just the opposite. Noobs will no way in hell be able to take advantage of this in a min/max way but veterans will be able to and most likely will do so.. this is a noob nerf disguised as a buff. My thoughts exactly. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.*
Tnam Caldari Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2009.02.12 11:35:00 - [56] I really can't find a problem with this change, if you look over a whole skill tree for a specific thing most times the attributes are spread over all but charisma. So even though my main character has a perfect layout in attributes (Caldari/Achura with high perc/int and slightly lower will/mem) when I look over the things that I actually train its kind of level right through (especially when you start maxing T2 ship skills and stuff). What I like about this is that some people (a lot of people) made their characters before they knew much about eve and ended up with crazy high charisma and willpower etc...it just makes eve more painful for those people and this gives them a change to level things out. I dunno whether I will respec at any point, the circumstances that I could see I might are: - I just wanna devote 6 months of training to leadership skills which I have none of. - I plan to cross train to another race of dreadnaught from scratch where it takes the better part of 6 months to max the relevant skills. My hunch with this is that the vast majority will set their attribs quite similar to the Achura template and be done with it, which in the end has to be fair. Only a few highly skilled pilots or people training pure specialist alts will switch them around every 6 months to make an optimal training plan for whatever they want. ---- Mortis Angelus is recruiting, please see our recruitment thread
TimMc Gallente Extradition	Posted - 2009.02.12 11:37:00 - [57] Originally by: Jalif Eve isn't anymore about the skills Eve is now more about what you can do with those skills. Basicly, CCP is rewarding the players who are smart. (If you don't understand this, you don't belong to the last group)
Gunnanmon Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2009.02.12 11:39:00 - [58] Is it 42?
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.12 11:40:00 - [59] Originally by: Kahega Amielden And you WILL have that happen, as no one really trains ONLY per/wil or INT/Mem or whatever skills for 6 months at a time except in very very rare circumstances (Character farming). Actually, I've been doing just that for the last three years or so. For example, I've just spent about the last six months taking Amarr Carrier and a load of other ship skills up to V. I could also spend six months focusing solely on missile skills, or six months getting that last level of Fighters as well as maxing out a load of other drone skills. I can do this becuase I'm a vet who has all of the essential skills already. New players don't have that luxury. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.12 11:44:00 - [60] Originally by: Gunnanmon Is it 42? You fell for it. It's actually 47 since you forgot to add the 5 respec points. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again

Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.02.12 11:45:00 - [61] Originally by: Tnam I really can't find a problem with this change, if you look over a whole skill tree for a specific thing most times the attributes are spread over all but charisma. Not really. I'll repost the list I created during yesterday's bout of boredom: The attribute combinations are distributed as follows: Int/Mem: 813 ranks over 126 skills. Per/Wil: 602 ranks over 103 skills. Mem/Int: 104 ranks over 39 skills. Wil/Per: 96 ranks over 15 skills. Mem/Per: 76 ranks over 18 skills. Cha/Wil: 67 ranks over 17 skills. Mem/Cha: 40 ranks over 9 skills. Int/Per: 38 ranks over 10 skills. Cha/Mem: 26 ranks over 8 skills. Cha/Int: 22 ranks over 14 skills. Wil/Int: 14 ranks over 1 skill. Wil/Cha: 8 ranks over 4 skills. Cha/Per: 3 ranks over 1 skill. Per/Mem: 2 ranks over 1 skill. All other combinations: 0 skills. That's 1913 ranks over 366 skills. Of those, the Int+Mem combination accounts for 917 ranks and 165 skills (47.9% and 45% respectively) and the Per+Wil combination accounts for another 698 ranks and 118 skills (36.5% and 32.2% respectively). They're not "spread all over" — they're using two very specific combinations for a vast majority of the skills (84% of the ranks and 77% of the skills). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Sophia Truthspeaker THE INTERNET. Goodfellas.	Posted - 2009.02.12 12:27:00 - [62] Very good points by the op. I just now tried it on sisi, to see how it works. On Sisi it costs 5 million, and the rules are fairly easy. You have to have a minimum of 5 basepoints in each single skill and can habe a maximum of 15. Then you got 14 points to spend anyway you like. Playing with that I realized, I was already minmaxed So on the one side we got those who want to respec, because some attribute is very low and hinders skill progress. Next we got those who don't want any respec, for various reasons. And lastly we got those who want to respec to maximize their sp/hour rate. Perhaps a compromise? How about being able to respec once at the end of the first month for free. And then once every year for some horrendous costs. Perhaps half a billion, and a few days recovering time, during which the char can't be played. Ancestry would also limit the way points are being picked. That way new player have a chance to know the game, before deciding how their attributes are distributed. Vets who are hindered because of a mistake during character creation would have the chance to redo it at a hefty price. Players who want to minmax can do so, but they'd pay even more. And the others, who don't want attribute respeccing at all (that is me, btw...) have the knowledge, it is not an on the fly respeccing, but a serious medical process, which takes time and enormous resources, so that only the pod pilots can sometimes afford it. Somehow making the process take some time during which the char can't be played (because he is still in a hospital recovering) makes the respeccing sound a bit more like part of the eve universe than sitting in you pod and undergoing a dna mutation treatment that finishes as soon as begun. Btw, the link in my sig isn't about attribute respeccing, but about learning skills mostly atm. _________ Proposed Mining and Attribute Changes The truth is out there
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.12 15:43:00 - [63] Looks like some people with some math skills and uncanny common sense are starting to figure out there's a huge problem with the proposed start redistribution on SiSi. Hopefully CCP and the ignorant trolls posting whines in this thread can figure it out in time. If not, I suppose the term 'clone' in reference to our characters will be a bit... ironic.
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.12 20:35:00 - [64] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Tnam I really can't find a problem with this change, if you look over a whole skill tree for a specific thing most times the attributes are spread over all but charisma. Not really. I'll repost the list I created during yesterday's bout of boredom: The attribute combinations are distributed as follows: Int/Mem: 813 ranks over 126 skills. Per/Wil: 602 ranks over 103 skills. Mem/Int: 104 ranks over 39 skills. Wil/Per: 96 ranks over 15 skills. Mem/Per: 76 ranks over 18 skills. Cha/Wil: 67 ranks over 17 skills. Mem/Cha: 40 ranks over 9 skills. Int/Per: 38 ranks over 10 skills. Cha/Mem: 26 ranks over 8 skills. Cha/Int: 22 ranks over 14 skills. Wil/Int: 14 ranks over 1 skill. Wil/Cha: 8 ranks over 4 skills. Cha/Per: 3 ranks over 1 skill. Per/Mem: 2 ranks over 1 skill. All other combinations: 0 skills. That's 1913 ranks over 366 skills. Of those, the Int+Mem combination accounts for 917 ranks and 165 skills (47.9% and 45% respectively) and the Per+Wil combination accounts for another 698 ranks and 118 skills (36.5% and 32.2% respectively). They're not "spread all over" ù they're using two very specific combinations for a vast majority of the skills (84% of the ranks and 77% of the skills). This was common knowledge a few years ago. It's good to see someone reposting this chart for newer players to see, and for those people who post in this thread without a single clue as to why this new respec idea might just be a huge problem.
Dr Resheph Amarr YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY	Posted - 2009.02.12 20:53:00 - [65] Hello, OP. I have 100m sp as well, and I've come to the same conclusion almost instantly. All this does is render the attribute system irrelevant, the last 6 years of attribute differences null, and makes training older characters with longer skills more efficient than training new ones. It basically gives a giant massive finger to vets, then turns around and goatse's all the newbies.
Sun Clausewitz	Posted - 2009.02.12 20:58:00 - [66] 3.141
Agrigan	Posted - 2009.02.12 20:59:00 - [67] The solution is simple: Escalating penalties for multiple respecs. However you want to do it, that is necessary. I know it's been done before, but that's because it is needed and works. ^ month wait times is not a new/better idea, it's really not an idea at all considering how stats work in EVE.
Dr Resheph Amarr YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY	Posted - 2009.02.12 21:06:00 - [68] No, the solution is even simpler. NO ATTRIBUTE RESPECT So far, no one from CCP has explained why we need it as part of regular gameplay. Why can't it be reserved for the New Player Experience as it was intended? It took several years of forum whining followed by CSM whining to implement a basic skill queue, and here they go changing one of the basic foundation pillars of EVE without reason, ****ing over vets and newbies alike so that players can feel happy in the short term.
Sun Clausewitz	Posted - 2009.02.12 21:09:00 - [69] Originally by: Dr Resheph No, the solution is even simpler. NO ATTRIBUTE RESPECT So far, no one from CCP has explained why we need it as part of regular gameplay. Why can't it be reserved for the New Player Experience as it was intended? It took several years of forum whining followed by CSM whining to implement a basic skill queue, and here they go changing one of the basic foundation pillars of EVE without reason, ****ing over vets and newbies alike so that players can feel happy in the short term. It's their game and they can do with it what they want... Adapt or Die is the old saying around here right? Or Wow is that way ----------> Your stuff, can me haz it?
Irida Mershkov Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2009.02.12 21:13:00 - [70] Originally by: Iria Ahrens Edited by: Iria Ahrens on 12/02/2009 09:01:55 Edited by: Iria Ahrens on 12/02/2009 08:54:48 Originally by: 5pinDizzy Originally by: Irida Mershkov They're still trying to work out those four sided rubik's cubes. Huh? A pyramid? Yes Iriba was probably being a troll, but there is such thing. Rubix supposedly does make one too, but the only one I've seen is Meffert's. I had one as a kid, solved it the hard way. I was pretty proud of that at the time. Thought I was qualified for a cube, found out how wrong I was. Hurf durf, I was being a ******, for some reason I forgot the top and the bottom side. Six sided, my bad. The topic title refers a puzzle towards CCP, I was trying to be smart saying they still haven't done the rubik's cube, and basically shot myself in the foot whilst posting it.

Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.12 22:14:00 - [71] Originally by: Sun Clausewitz It's their game and they can do with it what they want... Adapt or Die is the old saying around here right? Or Wow is that way ----------> Your stuff, can me haz it? Reader's Digest version of above - 'I have nothing of substance to say, no logical argument or proof, so I'm going to fall back upon the standard approach of all childish adolescents and quote 'Adapt or Die' and 'WoW is that way' and 'Your stuff, can me haz it?' Proof? Argument? Can me haz it?
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.12 23:02:00 - [72] Edited by: Silence Duegood on 12/02/2009 23:03:26 So if we'll all be maxing two stats at any given time, why not drop three of the stats from EVE and be done with it? Simple solution, right? Amazing
Elenath Gallente Bluebird Capital Management	Posted - 2009.02.13 01:36:00 - [73] Why are people having a hard time with this? You can eat only any two items in your fridge per day. You can go shopping only once a day. You can only buy five items per day. Why would you buy five items? You can only eat two. The other three items are pointless. That's why two bananas!
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.02.13 01:37:00 - [74] Originally by: Dr Resheph No, the solution is even simpler. NO ATTRIBUTE RESPECT So far, no one from CCP has explained why we need it as part of regular gameplay. Why can't it be reserved for the New Player Experience as it was intended? It took several years of forum whining followed by CSM whining to implement a basic skill queue, and here they go changing one of the basic foundation pillars of EVE without reason, ****ing over vets and newbies alike so that players can feel happy in the short term. how about no repsec is needed and wanted This week EvE Life: Wormhole Wars 01/Feb
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.13 03:28:00 - [75] Originally by: Armoured C repsec is needed and wanted Needed? No, EVE's been fine for years without it. Wanted. By some, but there's plenty of proof it'll water the game down and help vets while hurting newer players.
Helena Zeugir Gallente Federated Industrial Collective	Posted - 2009.02.13 05:13:00 - [76] Originally by: Agrigan I'm still pretty sure the answer is 2 bananas Yep, I'm going with 2 bananas aswell. No, but really. Everyone effectively has the same attributes and differences are only cosmetic? are you kidding me? Every (min/maxer) will fanatically respec every six months, while the rest of the people just keep playing normaly. Stop with the conspiracy theories.
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.13 05:30:00 - [77] Originally by: Helena Zeugir Edited by: Helena Zeugir on 13/02/2009 05:17:58 Originally by: Agrigan I'm still pretty sure the answer is 2 bananas Yep, I'm going with 2 bananas aswell. No, but really. Everyone effectively has the same attributes and differences are only cosmetic? are you kidding me? Every (min/maxer) will fanatically respec every six months, while the rest of the people just keep playing normaly. Stop with the conspiracy theories. EDIT: I also love the fact that everyone that disagrees with you is a child/immature/kid/carebear/whatever it is you can think of from their post at the moment. You're missing the point. Yes, everyone will effectively have the same attributes. At any given time only two attributes will matter. Call them whatever you like - A and B, Int and Mem, it doesn't matter. Everyone will max the two most important attributes for any given training period and then train only the corresponding skills. So, to use your example - every Minmatar (every character, in fact) will have boosted two attributes to as high as possible, and will be training skills for those two attributes. After six months the same thing will happen. Anyone playing 'normally' will be completely wasting skill time for absolutely no reason. What this equates to is an absolutely optimal way in which to train skills, therefore everyone will do so - max two skills (33 and 26.4 respectively) and then train skills according to which two they've max'd. Meanwhile the onther three skills are utterly and completely irrevelant and couldn't exist in the game for all intents and purposes. EVE will become a two skill game, the other three skills will be useless. Vets will gain more from this, as I've already explained (and which I'm happy to use to my advantage if the Devs are so myopic as to think this plan is worth applying to TQ). However, I'd prefer to see variety and balance. This problem is not rocket science. This requires a basic grasp of logic and grade school math to figure out.
James Malice Gallente Coalition Of Resolution	Posted - 2009.02.13 05:34:00 - [78] EVERYONE WILL MINMAX!? I'm not going to minmax. If anything I would set all my atributes to equal after taking skills into account, allowing me more flexibility to train whatever I need to at the time, instead of specializing, which kills you in this game. :D Min max all you want, just be prepared to be too specialized to counter new threats. Originally by: MooKids I like them, I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Helena Zeugir Gallente Federated Industrial Collective	Posted - 2009.02.13 05:41:00 - [79] Yeah, but your logic assumes I want to train Int/Mem skills for 6 months continuously and extremely linearly (for lack of a better expression). I don't think I will be going with that route, as I like to do a bit of missioning but every once in a while some trading. What if I want/need to train a skill which uses two different attributes because I want to spice things up and move the focus of my game a little, as not to stall my experience? I couldn't because I already went OVER THE TOP max to train other skills, arguably forcing myself to train skills I don't really need/want because they use the attributes I have maxed. Nah. I will just fix up the mistakes I did at character creation, balance my stuff out with a little lean towards combat, and be done with it all. I suspect every other person that is not hellbent on following one very strict path for 6 whole months, will do the same, and will live with a happily balanced character. Besides, I do see your point, it helps vets more than it helps newbies, so you should be happy
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.13 05:47:00 - [80] Originally by: Helena Zeugir Yeah, but your logic assumes I want to train Int/Mem skills for 6 months continuously and extremely linearly (for lack of a better expression). I don't think I will be going with that route, as I like to do a bit of missioning but every once in a while some trading. What if I want/need to train a skill which uses two different attributes because I want to spice things up and move the focus of my game a little, as not to stall my experience? I couldn't because I already went OVER THE TOP max to train other skills, arguably forcing myself to train skills I don't really need/want because they use the attributes I have maxed. Nah. I will just fix up the mistakes I did at character creation, balance my stuff out with a little lean towards combat, and be done with it all. I suspect every other person that is not hellbent on following one very strict path for 6 whole months, will do the same, and will live with a happily balanced character. Besides, I do see your point, it helps vets more than it helps newbies, so you should be happy So, as I've already said several (and I'm mean many) times, why not allow one respec only, and then be done with it so as to not allow some people (particularly us vets) to continue to pull ahead in skill points? I'm fine with one respec. If you want to generalize fine (that's what I did with both my characters with onver 100 mill SPs). But this new system will allow people (most of which will take advantage of doing so) an optimal path for training. As I've said many times in the past as well, if there's is ever an absolutely obvious optimal route in a game... then you've spotted a balance problem.

James Malice Gallente Coalition Of Resolution	Posted - 2009.02.13 05:52:00 - [81] Originally by: Silence Duegood Originally by: Helena Zeugir Yeah, but your logic assumes I want to train Int/Mem skills for 6 months continuously and extremely linearly (for lack of a better expression). I don't think I will be going with that route, as I like to do a bit of missioning but every once in a while some trading. What if I want/need to train a skill which uses two different attributes because I want to spice things up and move the focus of my game a little, as not to stall my experience? I couldn't because I already went OVER THE TOP max to train other skills, arguably forcing myself to train skills I don't really need/want because they use the attributes I have maxed. Nah. I will just fix up the mistakes I did at character creation, balance my stuff out with a little lean towards combat, and be done with it all. I suspect every other person that is not hellbent on following one very strict path for 6 whole months, will do the same, and will live with a happily balanced character. Besides, I do see your point, it helps vets more than it helps newbies, so you should be happy So, as I've already said several (and I'm mean many) times, why not allow one respec only, and then be done with it so as to not allow some people (particularly us vets) to continue to pull ahead in skill points? I'm fine with one respec. If you want to generalize fine (that's what I did with both my characters with onver 100 mill SPs). But this new system will allow people (most of which will take advantage of doing so) an optimal path for training. As I've said many times in the past as well, if there's is ever an absolutely obvious optimal route in a game... then you've spotted a balance problem. CCP is adding the feature, complaining about it ain't gonna get you anywhere. If you don't want to respec, don't. That's your choise. I'm going to use it once to rebalance my character, that's my prerogative. If someone wants to take the time ro respec every 6 months and plan out said 6 month for max eficiency, they have earned that right by having the RL skills and patience to plan out and dedicate themselves to the skill training. Adapt or die, if you don't like EVE, go home and cry. Originally by: MooKids I like them, I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Helena Zeugir Gallente Federated Industrial Collective	Posted - 2009.02.13 05:56:00 - [82] I see your point, and I guess I kind of agree. Allow one balance, or, one free balance, and then subsequent balances are EXTREMELY expensive (10b or more). I'm just happy I can fix my mistakes from 4 years ago when I knew NOTHING. Just don't remove the respec altogether :p
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.13 06:01:00 - [83] Edited by: Silence Duegood on 13/02/2009 06:03:19 Originally by: James Malice CCP is adding the feature, complaining about it ain't gonna get you anywhere. If you don't want to respec, don't. That's your choise. I'm going to use it once to rebalance my character, that's my prerogative. If someone wants to take the time ro respec every 6 months and plan out said 6 month for max eficiency, they have earned that right by having the RL skills and patience to plan out and dedicate themselves to the skill training. Adapt or die, if you don't like EVE, go home and cry. Read elsehwere in the thread where I address using 'Adapt or Die' as some way of explaining away facts. Also read elsewhere where I explain that choosing to not use an unbalanced feature doesn't create a balanced enviroment. As I've said, the balance issues with this change require grade school math and basic logic to understand. If you refuse to understand that's just fine. Keep bumping the thread though, I'm all for that. PS. Also, about your point that bringing to light problems with an upcoming feature not getting you anywhere. Please recall countless threads that included sound arguments where CCP listened to players and stopped a change on SiSi in it's tracks. The carrier changes about a year ago are a fine example.
James Malice Gallente Coalition Of Resolution	Posted - 2009.02.13 06:12:00 - [84] Originally by: Silence Duegood Edited by: Silence Duegood on 13/02/2009 06:03:19 Originally by: James Malice CCP is adding the feature, complaining about it ain't gonna get you anywhere. If you don't want to respec, don't. That's your choise. I'm going to use it once to rebalance my character, that's my prerogative. If someone wants to take the time ro respec every 6 months and plan out said 6 month for max eficiency, they have earned that right by having the RL skills and patience to plan out and dedicate themselves to the skill training. Adapt or die, if you don't like EVE, go home and cry. Read elsehwere in the thread where I address using 'Adapt or Die' as some way of explaining away facts. Also read elsewhere where I explain that choosing to not use an unbalanced feature doesn't create a balanced enviroment. As I've said, the balance issues with this change require grade school math and basic logic to understand. If you refuse to understand that's just fine. Keep bumping the thread though, I'm all for that. PS. Also, about your point that bringing to light problems with an upcoming feature not getting you anywhere. Please recall countless threads that included sound arguments where CCP listened to players and stopped a change on SiSi in it's tracks. The carrier changes about a year ago are a fine example. I'll bump your thread all night long. But the thing is, there is no evidence to show that anything you're saying will happen, you're pulling bs out yer ass (does that make you a bull? XD) and citing it as absolute fact. You dismiss everything everyone says and simply loop over and over and over the same points, which people counter, you dissmiss the counter without disproving it, and loop the same drivel again. The problem is, you don't know what's going to happen, so you automaticaly assume that the worst thing possible (in your oppinion) will happen, when most people probobly wont even use respec. :P you're making a moon out or spacedust, and every time you post you prove to the world that you have no idea what you're talking about. XD Originally by: MooKids I like them, I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.13 06:25:00 - [85] Since you don't understand I'll keep it simple for you. (However, I suspect you're simply going to continue to say that I'm 'making this up' just to be argumentative. Regardless, this is math. This isn't my opinion.) Fact - At any given time in EVE only two skills are relevant. Period. Anytime you're training you are using two of five skills in the game. Fact - After about 30 or 40 million skill points it is very easy to focus on one 'group' of skills (a 'group' meaning skills using the same primary and secondary attributes - ie. Int and Mem). At this point it is simple to train only a single 'group' for six months. Fact - With the new respec system any given player can spike two attributes, and then train that 'group' for six months. If need be they'll switch after six months. Therefore, there will exist a situation where an optimal path exists for training after having reached a certain amount of skill points (my guess is about 40 million), and the new respec system will allow an optimal path to exist since (and this is the key to the problem) any two attributes can be spiked. EVE will become a game of two optimal attributes spiked at all times for optimal training using this new system. It would be easier to simplify the system by simply getting entirely rid of three of the attributes in the game, forgetting the respec system as an ISK sink, and just giving everyone the two spiked attributes so they don't have to bother respeccing every six months. None of this is opinion. It's all fact. If people choose not to use it that does not create balance. An optimal path still exists. If anyone cares to explain how any of this is wrong, I'd love to discover that I'm incorrect so that I can rest at ease that EVE isn't becoming more homogeneous, boring, and catering to the convenient crowd.
James Malice Gallente Coalition Of Resolution	Posted - 2009.02.13 06:36:00 - [86] Originally by: Silence Duegood skills do you mean atributes? because that's what we're talking about here. Originally by: MooKids I like them, I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.13 06:44:00 - [87] Originally by: James Malice Originally by: Silence Duegood skills do you mean atributes? because that's what we're talking about here. Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry about that. Five 'attributes'. Typing this argument out this many times is getting my terminology mixed up!
James Malice Gallente Coalition Of Resolution	Posted - 2009.02.13 06:44:00 - [88] Originally by: Silence Duegood Originally by: James Malice Originally by: Silence Duegood skills do you mean atributes? because that's what we're talking about here. Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry about that. Five 'attributes'. Typing this argument out this many times is getting my terminology mixed up! There's a Visine for that. Originally by: MooKids I like them, I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.13 06:47:00 - [89] Edited by: Silence Duegood on 13/02/2009 06:54:02 Repost- fixed my opening terminology! (PS. I'm out of Visine.) Fact - At any given time in EVE only two attributes are relevant. Period. Anytime you're training you are using two of five attributes in the game. Fact - After about 30 or 40 million skill points it is very easy to focus on one 'group' of skills (a 'group' meaning skills using the same primary and secondary attributes - ie. Int and Mem). At this point it is simple to train only a single 'group' for six months. Fact - With the new respec system any given player can spike two attributes, and then train that 'group' for six months. If need be they'll switch after six months. Therefore, there will exist a situation where an optimal path exists for training after having reached a certain amount of skill points (my guess is about 40 million), and the new respec system will allow an optimal path to exist since (and this is the key to the problem) any two attributes can be spiked. EVE will become a game of two optimal attributes spiked at all times for optimal training using this new system. It would be easier to simplify the system by getting entirely rid of the three irrelevant attributes in the game, forgetting the respec system as an ISK sink, and just giving everyone the two spiked attributes so they don't have to bother respeccing every six months. None of this is opinion. It's all fact. If people choose not to use it that does not create balance. An optimal path still exists. Not to mention, one glaring problem with this proposed change is how heavily it biased is toward helping vets of the game, and hurting newer players. If anyone cares to explain how any of this is wrong, I'd love to discover that I'm incorrect so that I can rest at ease that EVE isn't becoming more homogeneous, boring, and catering to the convenient crowd.
James Malice Gallente Coalition Of Resolution	Posted - 2009.02.13 06:50:00 - [90] Originally by: Silence Duegood (PS. I'm out of Visine.) Then buy more, it's a very simple solution... Unless you don't have the atributes needed to train the Drive skill to lvl V so you can get to the store before it closes... that would suck. Originally by: MooKids I like them, I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.

Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.13 06:52:00 - [91] Originally by: James Malice Originally by: Silence Duegood (PS. I'm out of Visine.) Then buy more, it's a very simple solution... Unless you don't have the atributes needed to train the Drive skill to lvl V so you can get to the store before it closes... that would suck. Drive is at V. Spousal Excuses is at II. I'm staying home.
James Malice Gallente Coalition Of Resolution	Posted - 2009.02.13 06:54:00 - [92] Edited by: James Malice on 13/02/2009 06:54:14 Originally by: Silence Duegood Originally by: James Malice Originally by: Silence Duegood (PS. I'm out of Visine.) Then buy more, it's a very simple solution... Unless you don't have the atributes needed to train the Drive skill to lvl V so you can get to the store before it closes... that would suck. Drive is at V. Spousal Excuses is at II. I'm staying home. If only you could move some of your atribute points to will and charisma, you might be able to speed up that skill training. So sad, some dumbass in heavan stopped god from allowing people to make changes to the way they learn things... life would be so much easier if we had that ability... Originally by: MooKids I like them, I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.13 06:56:00 - [93] Edited by: Silence Duegood on 13/02/2009 06:57:33 So, final draft - and I'm waiting for anyone to explain where I may be wrong. And I most certainly mean that, I hope I am wrong. Fact - At any given time in EVE only two attributes are relevant. Period. Anytime you're training you are using two of five attributes in the game. Fact - After about 30 or 40 million skill points it is very easy to focus on one 'group' of skills (a 'group' meaning skills using the same primary and secondary attributes - ie. Int and Mem). At this point it is simple to train only a single 'group' for six months. Fact - With the new respec system any given player can spike two attributes, and then train that 'group' for six months. If need be they'll switch after six months. Therefore, there will exist a situation where an optimal path exists for training after having reached a certain amount of skill points (my guess is about 40 million), and the new respec system will allow an optimal path to exist since (and this is the key to the problem) any two attributes can be spiked. EVE will become a game of two optimal attributes spiked at all times for optimal training using this new system. It would be easier to simplify the system by getting entirely rid of the three irrelevant attributes in the game, forgetting the respec system as an ISK sink, and just giving everyone the two spiked attributes so they don't have to bother respeccing every six months. None of this is opinion. It's all fact. If people choose not to use it that does not create balance. An optimal path still exists. Not to mention, one glaring problem with this proposed change is how heavily biased it is toward helping vets of the game, while hurting newer players.
James Malice Gallente Coalition Of Resolution	Posted - 2009.02.13 07:02:00 - [94] Edited by: James Malice on 13/02/2009 07:02:59 Originally by: Silence Duegood So, final draft - and I'm waiting for anyone to explain where I may be wrong. And I most certainly mean that, I hope I am wrong. Fact - At any given time in EVE only two attributes are relevant. Period. Anytime you're training you are using two of five attributes in the game. Fact - After about 30 or 40 million skill points it is very easy to focus on one 'group' of skills (a 'group' meaning skills using the same primary and secondary attributes - ie. Int and Mem). At this point it is simple to train only a single 'group' for six months. Fact - With the new respec system any given player can spike two attributes, and then train that 'group' for six months. If need be they'll switch after six months. Therefore, there will exist a situation where an optimal path exists for training after having reached a certain amount of skill points (my guess is about 40 million), and the new respec system will allow an optimal path to exist since (and this is the key to the problem) any two attributes can be spiked. EVE will become a game of two optimal attributes spiked at all times for optimal training using this new system. It would be easier to simplify the system by getting entirely rid of the three irrelevant attributes in the game, forgetting the respec system as an ISK sink, and just giving everyone the two spiked attributes so they don't have to bother respeccing every six months. None of this is opinion. It's all fact. If people choose not to use it that does not create balance. An optimal path still exists. Not to mention, one glaring problem with this proposed change is how heavily it biased is toward helping vets of the game, and hurting newer players. first fact: So nothings changing. second fact: So far, it sounds like things are already the way you fear they will become Third fact: I havn't seen anything bad yet... Basicaly, what you're saying is that the new system will let people get better at what they already do, while allowing people who were stupid when they first joined (there's a lot of us) to fix our chars. The fact it though, that you'll only be able to use this change 2 times a year, and only if you know exactly what you want to do. If you spike two skills, you lose the other 3. Gain 2 Lose 3 I say again Gain 2 Lose 3 Mathamaticaly, it nerfs itself. XD You are specializing in one set of skills, which, unless you're a tactical genius, makes you hurt real bad in the long run. The fact is, your arguments, while sounding dire and end-of-worldy to you, doesn't really sound that bad to a sizable chunk of the player base. Basicaly, you're not the majority, just the loudest group... and it's majority rules bub. XD Originally by: MooKids I like them, I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Florio Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2009.02.13 07:08:00 - [95] james, you just don't get it. here, have an intelligence implant.
James Malice Gallente Coalition Of Resolution	Posted - 2009.02.13 07:10:00 - [96] Originally by: Florio james, you just don't get it. here, have an intelligence implant. Oh, oh low blow. You have smited me with your razor wit! I can not go on, i'll have to crawl away and die because you insulted my intelegence on an internet spaceship forum. WOE IS ME! Edit: That was sarcasm by the way. Originally by: MooKids I like them, I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.13 07:11:00 - [97] Edited by: Silence Duegood on 13/02/2009 07:12:12 Originally by: James Malice first fact: So nothings changing. second fact: So far, it sounds like things are already the way you fear they will become Third fact: I havn't seen anything bad yet... Basicaly, what you're saying is that the new system will let people get better at what they already do, while allowing people who were stupid when they first joined (there's a lot of us) to fix our chars. The fact it though, that you'll only be able to use this change 2 times a year, and only if you know exactly what you want to do. If you spike two skills, you lose the other 3. Gain 2 Lose 3 I say again Gain 2 Lose 3 Mathamaticaly, it nerfs itself. XD You are specializing in one set of skills, which, unless you're a tactical genius, makes you hurt real bad in the long run. The fact is, your arguments, while sounding dire and end-of-worldy to you, doesn't really sound that bad to a sizable chunk of the player base. Basicaly, you're not the majority, just the loudest group... and it's majority rules bub. XD First fact - Correct, nothing's changing. Second fact - Correct, still status quo. Nothing different from the current situation. Third fact is where it all goes wrong, because the playing field is adjustable. With the ability to spike any two attributes (since only two matter at any given time) there will always be an optimal training path. This is a help to older players who can easily focus on one 'group', while newer players must constantly shift skills that don't have similar attributes. Also, you say it nerfs itself. How? All races' Gunnery skills use the same basic 'group'. You, in a manner, pointed out one of the biggest problems - that specialization suddenly hurts LESS, not MORE... since anyone can move the attributes around that let them specialize at any given time. Specialization now means staying the course with your general set of attributes. After the change specialization will be as easy as moving your two spiked attributes around every six months. I'm not concerned with being 'loudest', or the 'majority'. All I want is to voice the facts.
James Malice Gallente Coalition Of Resolution	Posted - 2009.02.13 07:15:00 - [98] Originally by: Silence Duegood Edited by: Silence Duegood on 13/02/2009 07:12:12 Originally by: James Malice first fact: So nothings changing. second fact: So far, it sounds like things are already the way you fear they will become Third fact: I havn't seen anything bad yet... Basicaly, what you're saying is that the new system will let people get better at what they already do, while allowing people who were stupid when they first joined (there's a lot of us) to fix our chars. The fact it though, that you'll only be able to use this change 2 times a year, and only if you know exactly what you want to do. If you spike two skills, you lose the other 3. Gain 2 Lose 3 I say again Gain 2 Lose 3 Mathamaticaly, it nerfs itself. XD You are specializing in one set of skills, which, unless you're a tactical genius, makes you hurt real bad in the long run. The fact is, your arguments, while sounding dire and end-of-worldy to you, doesn't really sound that bad to a sizable chunk of the player base. Basicaly, you're not the majority, just the loudest group... and it's majority rules bub. XD First fact - Correct, nothing's changing. Second fact - Correct, still status quo. Nothing different from the current situation. Third fact is where it all goes wrong, because the playing field is adjustable. With the ability to spike any two attributes (since only two matter at any given time) there will always be an optimal training path. This is a help to older players who can easily focus on one 'group', while newer players must constantly shift skills that don't have similar attributes. Also, you say it nerfs itself. How? All races' Gunnery skills use the same basic 'group'. You, in a manner, pointed out one of the biggest problems - that specialization suddenly hurts LESS, not MORE... since anyone can move the attributes around that let them specialize at any given time. Specialization now means staying the course with your general set of attributes. After the change specialization will be as easy as moving your two spiked attributes around every six months. I'm not concerned with being 'loudest', or the 'majority'. All I want is to voice the facts. Specialize at any given time? I give the time of 2 months after specializing, Oh wait, I can't, because I have to wait a full six months before I can change my plans! You make it sound like people will be able to attain perfection overnight, when in reality you're only shaving a couple week at most off of any real training plan, assuming you stick to it. Originally by: MooKids I like them, I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.13 07:18:00 - [99] Originally by: James Malice Specialize at any given time? I give the time of 2 months after specializing, Oh wait, I can't, because I have to wait a full six months before I can change my plans! You make it sound like people will be able to attain perfection overnight, when in reality you're only shaving a couple week at most off of any real training plan, assuming you stick to it. You seem to forget that six months of training after 30 or 40 million skill points doesn't invlove a ton of changes. Hell, it's pretty common now for me to train only 6, 7, or 8 skills over the course of six months. Once people begin to focus on a 'group' training times of a month per skill is very common. Being 'locked' into only training one group for six months is nothing when compared to the current situation.
James Malice Gallente Coalition Of Resolution	Posted - 2009.02.13 07:22:00 - [100] Originally by: Silence Duegood Originally by: James Malice Specialize at any given time? I give the time of 2 months after specializing, Oh wait, I can't, because I have to wait a full six months before I can change my plans! You make it sound like people will be able to attain perfection overnight, when in reality you're only shaving a couple week at most off of any real training plan, assuming you stick to it. You seem to forget that six months of training after 30 or 40 million skill points doesn't invlove a ton of changes. Hell, it's pretty common now for me to train only 6, 7, or 8 skills over the course of six months. Once people begin to focus on a 'group' training times of a month per skill is very common. Being 'locked' into only training one group for six months is nothing when compared to the current situation. And another flaw, you keep giving example like "after 30 or 40 million skill points" A minority in eve has that much, either because they left for awhile and came back, got podded with an unupdated clone, left the game totaly, or have only been playing a couple years. Most characters wont be getting close to the benefit you would if you used respecing. You're assumeing, again, worst case scenario, assuming that everyone has as many skill points as you, when the majority isn't even close. When you give me an argument I can't find a large hole in, I might start to side with you, but so far you're not proving anything. Originally by: MooKids I like them, I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.

Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.13 07:24:00 - [101] Originally by: James Malice When you give me an argument I can't find a large hole in, I might start to side with you, but so far you're not proving anything. I still haven't seen you provide an argument against the one in post #91. Also, keep this chart in mind (cut and pasted from earlier in the thread) - Int/Mem: 813 ranks over 126 skills. Per/Wil: 602 ranks over 103 skills. Mem/Int: 104 ranks over 39 skills. Wil/Per: 96 ranks over 15 skills. Mem/Per: 76 ranks over 18 skills. Cha/Wil: 67 ranks over 17 skills. Mem/Cha: 40 ranks over 9 skills. Int/Per: 38 ranks over 10 skills. Cha/Mem: 26 ranks over 8 skills. Cha/Int: 22 ranks over 14 skills. Wil/Int: 14 ranks over 1 skill. Wil/Cha: 8 ranks over 4 skills. Cha/Per: 3 ranks over 1 skill. Per/Mem: 2 ranks over 1 skill. All other combinations: 0 skills. That's 1913 ranks over 366 skills. Of those, the Int+Mem combination accounts for 917 ranks and 165 skills (47.9% and 45% respectively) and the Per+Wil combination accounts for another 698 ranks and 118 skills (36.5% and 32.2% respectively). This makes focusing on groups much, MUCH easier.
James Malice Gallente Coalition Of Resolution	Posted - 2009.02.13 07:30:00 - [102] Edited by: James Malice on 13/02/2009 07:31:01 Stop looking into This And wait to see what actualy happens. Remember, nothing is absolute. If it turns out that it breaks the game when they add it, they'll change it. It's in freaking beta for crying out loud, and we're all acting, on both sides, as if the way the system is now is the way it will be when they bring it out of beta. BETA MEANS TEST! let them test it and make some changes before you bash it. XD I just tore a hole in any argument you have used and will ever come up with on this topic. I suggest we discontinue until we see some results from beta. OFF TO BED NOW! 'cus it's 2:30 AM here. XD Originally by: MooKids I like them, I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.13 07:32:00 - [103] Originally by: James Malice Edited by: James Malice on 13/02/2009 07:31:01 Stop looking into This And wait to see what actualy happens. Remember, nothing is absolute. If it turns out that it breaks the game when they add it, they'll change it. It's in freaking beta for crying out loud, and we're all acting, on both sides, as if the way the system is now is the way it will be when they bring it out of beta. BETA MEANS TEST! let them test it and make some changes before you bash it. XD I just tore a hole in any argument you have used and will ever come up with on this topic. I suggest we discontinue until we see some results from beta. OFF TO BED NOW! 'cus it's 2:30 AM here. XD Now THAT argument is an argument with which I agree. It's not set into stone yet. So, we'll see what happens! /salute
James Malice Gallente Coalition Of Resolution	Posted - 2009.02.13 07:34:00 - [104] Originally by: Silence Duegood Originally by: James Malice Edited by: James Malice on 13/02/2009 07:31:01 Stop looking into This And wait to see what actualy happens. Remember, nothing is absolute. If it turns out that it breaks the game when they add it, they'll change it. It's in freaking beta for crying out loud, and we're all acting, on both sides, as if the way the system is now is the way it will be when they bring it out of beta. BETA MEANS TEST! let them test it and make some changes before you bash it. XD I just tore a hole in any argument you have used and will ever come up with on this topic. I suggest we discontinue until we see some results from beta. OFF TO BED NOW! 'cus it's 2:30 AM here. XD Now THAT argument is an argument with which I agree. It's not set into stone yet. So, we'll see what happens! /salute The best debate is one ended with honor and mutual respect! /salute. Originally by: MooKids I like them, I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.13 09:15:00 - [105] Originally by: James Malice Edited by: James Malice on 13/02/2009 07:31:01 Stop looking into This And wait to see what actualy happens. Remember, nothing is absolute. If it turns out that it breaks the game when they add it, they'll change it. It's in freaking beta for crying out loud, and we're all acting, on both sides, as if the way the system is now is the way it will be when they bring it out of beta. BETA MEANS TEST! let them test it and make some changes before you bash it. XD I just tore a hole in any argument you have used and will ever come up with on this topic. I suggest we discontinue until we see some results from beta. OFF TO BED NOW! 'cus it's 2:30 AM here. XD Yes it's in beta, which means that if we can see a flaw in the way it works, we have a duty to say so. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.13 09:17:00 - [106] Originally by: Silence Duegood Edited by: Silence Duegood on 13/02/2009 06:57:33 So, final draft - and I'm waiting for anyone to explain where I may be wrong. And I most certainly mean that, I hope I am wrong. Fact - At any given time in EVE only two attributes are relevant. Period. Anytime you're training you are using two of five attributes in the game. Fact - After about 30 or 40 million skill points it is very easy to focus on one 'group' of skills (a 'group' meaning skills using the same primary and secondary attributes - ie. Int and Mem). At this point it is simple to train only a single 'group' for six months. Fact - With the new respec system any given player can spike two attributes, and then train that 'group' for six months. If need be they'll switch after six months. Therefore, there will exist a situation where an optimal path exists for training after having reached a certain amount of skill points (my guess is about 40 million), and the new respec system will allow an optimal path to exist since (and this is the key to the problem) any two attributes can be spiked. EVE will become a game of two optimal attributes spiked at all times for optimal training using this new system. It would be easier to simplify the system by getting entirely rid of the three irrelevant attributes in the game, forgetting the respec system as an ISK sink, and just giving everyone the two spiked attributes so they don't have to bother respeccing every six months. None of this is opinion. It's all fact. If people choose not to use it that does not create balance. An optimal path still exists. Not to mention, one glaring problem with this proposed change is how heavily biased it is toward helping vets of the game, while hurting newer players. An excellent summary, though I'd say that it becomes easy to focus on a small number of skills before then - I think that it's more than possible to spend six months on a single pair of attributes by 20m SP. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Verx Interis Amarr Honour Bound Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2009.02.13 09:17:00 - [107] Please give me a period where you ONLY trained int/mem skills for SIX WHOLE MONTHS. Kthx. ---- Logins required for this post: 122601
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.13 09:19:00 - [108] Originally by: Verx Interis Please give me a period where you ONLY trained int/mem skills for SIX WHOLE MONTHS. Kthx. There have been a couple of times when I've spent that long training them up. And I know for a fact that Dr Caymus has spent nearly six years focusing on Int and Mem skills Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.02.13 09:22:00 - [109] Edited by: Tippia on 13/02/2009 09:22:15 Originally by: Verx Interis Please give me a period where you ONLY trained int/mem skills for SIX WHOLE MONTHS. Kthx. I can give you a period where I almost exclusively trained Per/Wil skills — the last six months. But that's mainly because I have already trained my support skills to reasonable levels and have no interest in science & industry. …oh, and this character is just over a year old, so that's how early it starts. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Rexthor Hammerfists Rage of Inferno Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.02.13 09:24:00 - [110] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 12/02/2009 01:42:21 The penalty for respecing should be recalculation of all your already trained skills in line with you new stats. Any skill which would be at a lower level should drop to that level, and any that would have trained to the same level or better should remain as they are. Problem solved. Respecing becomes a tweak, rather than a min/max paradise. Awesome idea, i wish theyd do this. - Rage is Recruiting

Delkin	Posted - 2009.02.13 09:47:00 - [111] Does anyone know where the Amarr trainer is coz i need to respec my talents?
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.13 11:18:00 - [112] Originally by: Delkin Does anyone know where the Amarr trainer is coz i need to respec my talents? Delve
Sophia Truthspeaker THE INTERNET. Goodfellas.	Posted - 2009.02.13 12:26:00 - [113] Originally by: James Malice Mathamaticaly, it nerfs itself. XD You are specializing in one set of skills, which, unless you're a tactical genius, makes you hurt real bad in the long run. The fact is, your arguments, while sounding dire and end-of-worldy to you, doesn't really sound that bad to a sizable chunk of the player base. Learning a new race (firg, cruiser and bs to 5, turrets to 5, specs to 4) takes me close to 150 days. Add in another race only the bs from 1 to 5, and I am easily over the 180 days of six month. Getting just 5 points more in perception and willpower each will lower those 150 days to 120 days. I think i can find stuff to train in that extra month without problems, that still only take perception and willpower. So where am I hurting if I am cross training to a new race? To most players an I-Win-Button sounds great... as long as only they themselve have one. Realizing that everyone could then have one, takes the fun out of it. So just because it doesn't sound end of world to you doesn't mean, it isn't the end of the world. As I understand the OP, he fears, that once you can respec every 6 month (price doesn't matter, as often stated, price alone isn't balancing) you basicly get a fixed path to follow if you want to keep in the competition. Even worse, once such an optimal path is formed, more and more people will use it. Compare how many are skilling the learning skills in the first two month to those who are not skilling learnings at all. And as the case is with learnings, you will get an "optimal" skillplan, which minimzes times. There certainly will be variations, but they will be far fewer than they are now.
Ryoji Tanakama Caldari Firestar Drive Yards	Posted - 2009.02.13 13:00:00 - [114] Originally by: teoliit Just because you get more SP / hour that way doesn't mean you have to do it Stop whining, you'll always have more SP than new players anyway Yeah and the cool part is that the gap between me and a noob will only get bigger after the expansion. They're buffing the old-timers!!! Half the skills I want to train now are rank 8+.
Ryoji Tanakama Caldari Firestar Drive Yards	Posted - 2009.02.13 13:04:00 - [115] Originally by: James Malice Edited by: James Malice on 13/02/2009 07:02:59 Originally by: Silence Duegood So, final draft - and I'm waiting for anyone to explain where I may be wrong. And I most certainly mean that, I hope I am wrong. Fact - At any given time in EVE only two attributes are relevant. Period. Anytime you're training you are using two of five attributes in the game. Fact - After about 30 or 40 million skill points it is very easy to focus on one 'group' of skills (a 'group' meaning skills using the same primary and secondary attributes - ie. Int and Mem). At this point it is simple to train only a single 'group' for six months. Fact - With the new respec system any given player can spike two attributes, and then train that 'group' for six months. If need be they'll switch after six months. Therefore, there will exist a situation where an optimal path exists for training after having reached a certain amount of skill points (my guess is about 40 million), and the new respec system will allow an optimal path to exist since (and this is the key to the problem) any two attributes can be spiked. EVE will become a game of two optimal attributes spiked at all times for optimal training using this new system. It would be easier to simplify the system by getting entirely rid of the three irrelevant attributes in the game, forgetting the respec system as an ISK sink, and just giving everyone the two spiked attributes so they don't have to bother respeccing every six months. None of this is opinion. It's all fact. If people choose not to use it that does not create balance. An optimal path still exists. Not to mention, one glaring problem with this proposed change is how heavily it biased is toward helping vets of the game, and hurting newer players. first fact: So nothings changing. second fact: So far, it sounds like things are already the way you fear they will become Third fact: I havn't seen anything bad yet... Basicaly, what you're saying is that the new system will let people get better at what they already do, while allowing people who were stupid when they first joined (there's a lot of us) to fix our chars. The fact it though, that you'll only be able to use this change 2 times a year, and only if you know exactly what you want to do. If you spike two skills, you lose the other 3. Gain 2 Lose 3 I say again Gain 2 Lose 3 Mathamaticaly, it nerfs itself. XD You are specializing in one set of skills, which, unless you're a tactical genius, makes you hurt real bad in the long run. The fact is, your arguments, while sounding dire and end-of-worldy to you, doesn't really sound that bad to a sizable chunk of the player base. Basicaly, you're not the majority, just the loudest group... and it's majority rules bub. XD Your lack of understanding troubles me. I do not nerf myself by concentrating on a single group of skills for 6 months. I train approximately 5 to 7 skills much faster, I was going to train them anyway. Now I just effectively ask EVEMon to prioritise as if I had an extra implant in 2 slots, bumping those skills to the top of the training plan. In 6 months I swap these imaginary implants for 2 others, so the priority changes. You forget I already fly the majoity of ships on virtually maxed skills. I'd have to pod myself a few times to make your supposition valid. There's no self-defeat here, only win for those with lots of level 5s to train.
Minny Sky	Posted - 2009.02.13 13:09:00 - [116] It isnt going to work the way you are saying. Will only be able to change points a little, not make every thing zero except your two favorites. Still gay though
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.02.13 13:14:00 - [117] Originally by: Minny Sky It isnt going to work the way you are saying. Will only be able to change points a little, not make every thing zero except your two favorites. True enough — 5 will be the minimum… that still leaves 14 points to spread out over the two main attributes your training is based on… If it's two completely different attributes than the 6 months before, that's a total change of 28 attribute points. I don't quite see that as "a little" change. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Cadde Gallente Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM	Posted - 2009.02.13 14:03:00 - [118] Read your argument. Now please read mine... And no, it isn't directed at you in particular! Cross training --------------- Opinions? Yes they belong to me, not my corp!
Onyx Celestia Glass Cannons	Posted - 2009.02.13 14:16:00 - [119] What people keep forgetting here is that many players (except maybe the old timers) aren't going to be able to avoid training int/mem skills for six months straight during the half-year they have perc/will maxxed. A lot of support skills do come from the opposite side of the fence, and min/maxers are going to lose out whenever they're forced to train those to fly a certain ship or do a certain thing well. Not to mention that people's goals or interests might change during any given half year, and now they'll feel "forced" to keep on a certain long path. You can bet if anything we'll be hearing, "I changed my mind about what direction I want to go in and now I can't respec for six more months-- thanks, CCP! Emoragequit!"
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.13 14:27:00 - [120] Firstly: OP isn't stating facts, OP is whining Want to know a fact? Fact: People won't learn all the skill in eve in any case Fact: Attributes redistribution is a feature like Training Skills Fact: You CAN play the game without Training Skills Fact: You CAN Train Skill without having to Redistribuite Fact: 5 Attributes aren't 2 Attributes. However you think it, they're still 5 Attributes. ----------------------------------------- Originally by: Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.

Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.02.13 14:33:00 - [121] Originally by: Onyx Celestia A lot of support skills do come from the opposite side of the fence, and min/maxers are going to lose out whenever they're forced to train those to fly a certain ship or do a certain thing well. Not really, no. The "general" support skills (Electronics, Engineering, Mechanics) are all Int/Mem. These will be needed no matter what ship you fly in. The "pew pew" support skills (Missile ops, Gunnery) are all Per/Wil. These might change according to what ship you're in, but fortunately the ship skills are also all Per/Wil (except T2, which are Wil/Per). So once you get the baseline support skills done (all of which are Int/Mem) you can safely go after the actual "flying around, asploding things" skills with a single attribute reassignment. There's very little need to mix them up, especially with a tiny bit of forethought, so I can't quite see how the min-maxers would miss out on anything…
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.13 14:35:00 - [122] Originally by: Concorduck Firstly: OP isn't stating facts, OP is whining Want to know a fact? Fact: People won't learn all the skill in eve in any case True Quote: Fact: Attributes redistribution is a feature like Training Skills Features can be bad as well as good. Quote: Fact: You CAN play the game without Training Skills Unless you want to do anything in the game Quote: Fact: You CAN Train Skill without having to Redistribuite Unless you want to train at the same rate as the min/maxers Quote: Fact: 5 Attributes aren't 2 Attributes. However you think it, they're still 5 Attributes. Five attributes, that you can effectively change to be whatever you want them to be. What's the point of having them if everyone's attributes are effectively the same?
Rennion	Posted - 2009.02.13 15:08:00 - [123] EVE really does attract the most obsesive compulsive of people I honestly can't believe anyone is whining about this system except for "grandfather" syndrome. If you had to suffer through it then everyone esle should to right? Hopefully the next step is to delete learning skills from the game and add the points into this system.
Sophia Truthspeaker THE INTERNET. Goodfellas.	Posted - 2009.02.13 15:14:00 - [124] Originally by: Rennion EVE really does attract the most obsesive compulsive of people I honestly can't believe anyone is whining about this system except for "grandfather" syndrome. If you had to suffer through it then everyone esle should to right? Hopefully the next step is to delete learning skills from the game and add the points into this system. While I agree on deleting the learning skills, I am still against the respeccing. It is pretty easy. The more you give in to the minmaxing, the more the single character looses its worth. Next step wouldn't be to put the learnings into respec, too, but to repsec skillpoints. Yeah, why not, its mining op today, so lets simply move my millions sp i have from gunnery to be able to fly barge and exhumer, and after it is over, move it back to gunnery. Oh, I haven't used a minnie ship in ages, so move all points of that race into somewhere more valuable at the moment. While that scenario sounds far fetched, it is on the same road. _________ Proposed Mining and Attribute Changes The truth is out there
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.13 15:27:00 - [125] Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 13/02/2009 14:37:08 Originally by: Concorduck Firstly: OP isn't stating facts, OP is whining Want to know a fact? Fact: People won't learn all the skill in eve in any case True, but irrelevant to the discussion at hand as nobody has claimed that it will be possible. Quote: Fact: Attributes redistribution is a feature like Training Skills Features can be bad as well as good. Quote: Fact: You CAN play the game without Training Skills Unless you want to do anything in the game Quote: Fact: You CAN Train Skill without having to Redistribuite Unless you want to train at the same rate as the min/maxers Quote: Fact: 5 Attributes aren't 2 Attributes. However you think it, they're still 5 Attributes. Five attributes, that you can effectively change to be whatever you want them to be. What's the point of having them if everyone's attributes are effectively the same? · If you want a fight on everybody opinions, let me tell you that you're a moron forum trolls with 12 yo experience and a 8yo brain, and you lack common sense, sexual activity of any kind. ELSE, please stay on topic, There are 5 Attributes, no matter how can you change em, they're still 5, and you still need all of them to play. TRAINIG SKILLS IS OPTIONAL, the game won't ask for a skill to train upon login, nor will it force you to change attributes every 6 months exactly. And at least 35% of EVE Characters are not training any skill. ----------------------------------------- Originally by: Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.13 15:33:00 - [126] Originally by: Concorduck If you want a fight on everybody opinions, let me tell you that you're a moron forum trolls with 12 yo experience and a 8yo brain, and you lack common sense, sexual activity of any kind. I'm sure that you win many debates with such a revolutionary technique. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.13 15:42:00 - [127] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Concorduck If you want a fight on everybody opinions, let me tell you that you're a moron forum trolls with 12 yo experience and a 8yo brain, and you lack common sense, sexual activity of any kind. I'm sure that you ~~win~~ won many debates with such a revolutionary technique. and yes, i did, because people can't just fight on facts
Insa Rexion Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ	Posted - 2009.02.13 15:47:00 - [128] Originally by: Concorduck Firstly: OP isn't stating facts, OP is whining Want to know a fact? Fact: You CAN play the game without Training Skills Is that supposed to be a decent argument.....really ?? How many years have you been in your velator exactly....do you still love it as much as your first day ? I think I have gone a bit misty eyed
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.13 15:48:00 - [129] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 13/02/2009 15:47:59 Originally by: Concorduck Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Concorduck If you want a fight on everybody opinions, let me tell you that you're a moron forum trolls with 12 yo experience and a 8yo brain, and you lack common sense, sexual activity of any kind. I'm sure that you ~~win~~ won many debates with such a revolutionary technique. and yes, i did, because people can't just fight on facts So when will you actually bring some relevant facts to the discussion, rather than just trolling and misquoting?
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.13 15:52:00 - [130] Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 13/02/2009 15:47:59 Originally by: Concorduck Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Concorduck If you want a fight on everybody opinions, let me tell you that you're a moron forum trolls with 12 yo experience and a 8yo brain, and you lack common sense, sexual activity of any kind. I'm sure that you ~~win~~ won many debates with such a revolutionary technique. and yes, i did, because people can't just fight on facts So when will you actually bring some relevant facts to the discussion, rather than just trolling and misquoting? i did, post number 118 in this thread. but, ofc, you can still ***** about your "supposedly best system" and keep whining on the upcoming nerf of attributes redistribution even after facts are presented. hope you didn't leave the lights on in your cave.

Insa Rexion Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ	Posted - 2009.02.13 15:57:00 - [131] I am still waiting on an answer to how long you have been flying ur noob ship around with no skills since you claim (I assume from a position of experience) that it is possible to play the game without training skills. Unless of course you just pulled that little sound bite from ur butt with nothing to back it up.....C/D ?
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.13 16:01:00 - [132] Originally by: Concorduck Quote: So when will you actually bring some relevant facts to the discussion, rather than just trolling and misquoting? i did, post number 118 in this thread. but, ofc, you can still ***** about your "supposedly best system" and keep whining on the upcoming nerf of attributes redistribution even after facts are presented. hope you didn't leave the lights on in your cave. I refer you to my response
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.13 16:02:00 - [133] Although Rodj has answered you quite eloquently, I'll go ahead and answer you again as you don't seem to understand basic logic. Originally by: Concorduck Firstly: OP isn't stating facts, OP is whining Please point out where I'm whining. Each and every statement in post #91 is a current fact on SiSi (some are facts on TQ). Originally by: Concorduck Fact: People won't learn all the skill in eve in any case Irrelevant. I'm never made that claim. Please point out where I did or why that fact would matter if I had. Originally by: Concorduck Fact: Attributes redistribution is a feature like Training Skills Incorrect. It's not a feature on TQ. I never claimed such. Irrelevant. Features are constantly proposed, tested, changed, added, or removed by CCP for balance. Originally by: Concorduck Fact: You CAN play the game without Training Skills Irrelevant. Opting out of using an unbalanced feature (a predictably optimal training path, in this instance) does not rebalance the game. Originally by: Concorduck Fact: You CAN Train Skill without having to Redistribuite Irrelevant. Opting out of using an unbalanced feature (a predictably optimal training path, in this instance) does not rebalance the game. Originally by: Concorduck Fact: 5 Attributes aren't 2 Attributes. However you think it, they're still 5 Attributes. Incorrect and irrelevant. A system allowing the use of only two adjustable attributes out of five at any given time is including three irrelevant and useless attributes that, for all intents and purposes, do not need to exist. Therefore, while five exist only two are relevant.
maranne marachian	Posted - 2009.02.13 16:42:00 - [134] you know i love the fact people are ignoring the fact that it says that the respecs increase in cost. so we could have.. new player: free free 5 million 50 million 500 million ... or free free 5 million 500 million 50 billion ... if the first is true most people will bother to respec 4/5 times after that the gain isn't worth the cost in the second most will stop after 4. We dont know right now as we can only see the FIRST respec cost. So people stop jumping the gun and wait till the second respec point to start complaining or at least till they reveal the costs
Inir Ishtori The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation	Posted - 2009.02.13 16:50:00 - [135] well, instead of just trowing the respec idea away you could limit the amount of attribute points one could change. let's say we limit it to 5, so even the worst screw-ups like 3 base points in perception/charisma can be dealt with without extremely focusing in some narrow areas. as for me, i know that i would really like to have had a respec feature two years ago. realising that an inataki is the worst racial line for a fighter character 2 months into the game was pretty bad. trying to create a non-ugly male achura was even worse. i still would rather have a male character in some of the other race lines. redistibution of status points - limited to some small amout of points you can change - will make it much easier to choose a race you like and shift your focus from some area to another from time to time. of course we can just scrap it all and create some more lovely achuras because there are not enough of them.
Sophia Truthspeaker THE INTERNET. Goodfellas.	Posted - 2009.02.13 16:58:00 - [136] Originally by: Inir Ishtori of course we can just scrap it all and create some more lovely achuras because there are not enough of them. Actually... that idea is interesting... on sisi, the attribute respec is called dna modification. At least in the error messages if you do something wrong. So if you are playing around with your own dna, why can't you change race, bloodline, gender and avatar look with it, too, instead of just distributing a few attribute points? _________ Proposed Mining and Attribute Changes The truth is out there
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.13 17:07:00 - [137] Ok, i'll point something out the clueless defending their point with multi-quoting and Stating their OPINIONS. You MUST Change attributes ONCE every 6 months to that OP scenarios to apply. even so, you need extensive EVEmon planning and you'll be sitting in uselessness for one year over that plan. now, having TWO attributes instead of FIVE will ruin this system, a system that took 5 years to perfetionate and is still working great. NO, this change won't improve it. NO, having two attributes isn't funny. want a fact? here's your dailfy what the fact: Implants and Pirate Implants. AHAH OH WOW, just WOW. you're gonna ruin it completely, you would have only 2 attributes enhancers and 3 more implants slot to fill with the only bonus. laughable on many levels. ----------------------------------------- Originally by: Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
Inir Ishtori The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation	Posted - 2009.02.13 17:15:00 - [138] Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker Originally by: Inir Ishtori of course we can just scrap it all and create some more lovely achuras because there are not enough of them. Actually... that idea is interesting... on sisi, the attribute respec is called dna modification. At least in the error messages if you do something wrong. So if you are playing around with your own dna, why can't you change race, bloodline, gender and avatar look with it, too, instead of just distributing a few attribute points? with WiS coming later this year this is a very interesting idea
maranne marachian	Posted - 2009.02.13 17:26:00 - [139] Since i forgot to post this earlier... Originally by: Silence Duegood So, as I've already said several (and I'm mean many) times, why not allow one respec only, welcome to the world of everyone being a mini achura. why? cause everyone will stick 5 in char put a couple to 9 and forget about variation. oh and guys the reason why these changes are coming in is fairly obvious when you fly around and 90% of the people you see are one bloodline, not even just one race a specific bloodline. Originally by: Silence Duegood As I've said many times in the past as well, if there's is ever an absolutely obvious optimal route in a game... then you've spotted a balance problem. great lets remove achura from the game then because there is a BIG balance problem standing right there.. and to save you time we'll just delete your char cause hey she was imbalanced against other races.. try a char planner sometime and sort by training time 99.999% of the time the top for char race/bloodline suggestions will be caldari/achura
Insa Rexion Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ	Posted - 2009.02.13 18:13:00 - [140] Originally by: Concorduck Ok, i'll point something out the clueless defending their point with multi-quoting and Stating their OPINIONS. You MUST Change attributes ONCE every 6 months to that OP scenarios to apply. even so, you need extensive EVEmon planning and you'll be sitting in uselessness for one year over that plan. now, having TWO attributes instead of FIVE will ruin this system, a system that took 5 years to perfetionate and is still working great. NO, this change won't improve it. NO, having two attributes isn't funny. want a fact? here's your dailfy what the fact: Implants and Pirate Implants. AHAH OH WOW, just WOW. you're gonna ruin it completely, you would have only 2 attributes enhancers and 3 more implants slot to fill with the only bonus. laughable on many levels. I'll take this to mean that you don't wish to answer my question, in other words you haven't tried playing the game without training skills an you are just hoping that the thread moves past ur ridiculous claims with great speed. possible to play EvE without training skills...nice one

Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.13 18:14:00 - [141] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 13/02/2009 18:14:33 Originally by: Concorduck Ok, i'll point something out the clueless defending their point with multi-quoting and Stating their OPINIONS. You MUST Change attributes ONCE every 6 months to that OP scenarios to apply. even so, you need extensive EVEmon planning and you'll be sitting in uselessness for one year over that plan. now, having TWO attributes instead of FIVE will ruin this system, a system that took 5 years to perfetionate and is still working great. NO, this change won't improve it. NO, having two attributes isn't funny. want a fact? here's your dailfy what the fact: Implants and Pirate Implants. AHAH OH WOW, just WOW. you're gonna ruin it completely, you would have only 2 attributes enhancers and 3 more implants slot to fill with the only bonus. laughable on many levels. I'm glad that you agree with me that the current system is working great. So why change it? And yes, people who min/max right off the bat under the new system will be sitting on a useless character for a year. But look at the current advice that's given to new players to max out their learning skills ASAP. Do you really think that new in the future there won't be heaps of advice to newbies to essentially gimp their characters for a year in order to maximise the long-term effects of the new system? And won't that put a lot of new players off?
Vaedon Roid Ripper Industries	Posted - 2009.02.13 19:08:00 - [142] Originally by: Silence Duegood Edited by: Silence Duegood on 12/02/2009 23:03:26 So if we'll all be maxing two stats at any given time, why not drop three of the stats from EVE and be done with it? Simple solution, right? Amazing Your arguments would all be valid, except for one point. Quote: we'll all be maxing two stats If you can prove to me, I mean give me actual proof, that EVERYONE will do this, I will stand firmly in your corner. But I know damn well you can't. Your "facts" are based on what I'm guessing are your opinions of how people should play. How you would play, given this new mechanic. I've played a lot of CMGs, and I've learned players can generally (not always) be broken down into two catagories - Min/maxers, and people who play for fun (or scrubs if you prefer). I looked into mix/maxing my stats and came with a chart similar to the one posted here. I didn't like what I saw. While I will be modifying my stats, likely periodically, I will not be handicapping myself by pushing up two stats and killing the rest, even for six months. While I respect your position, I believe it's flawed. Because there are lots of scrubs in the world.
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.13 20:43:00 - [143] Originally by: Vaedon Quote: we'll all be maxing two stats If you can prove to me, I mean give me actual proof, that EVERYONE will do this, I will stand firmly in your corner. But I know damn well you can't. Your "facts" are based on what I'm guessing are your opinions of how people should play. How you would play, given this new mechanic. Your logic is flawed. I don't have to prove that everyone will do it, because, as I've already stated - 'Opting out of using an unbalanced option does not rebalance the game'. You see, whether or not people choose the obviously optimal training path doesn't negate its existence. Think of it as an unfair tax loophole - just because everyone doesn't bother using it doesn't mean that it should be left in place to be exploited.
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.13 20:48:00 - [144] Originally by: maranne marachian Since i forgot to post this earlier... Originally by: Silence Duegood So, as I've already said several (and I'm mean many) times, why not allow one respec only, welcome to the world of everyone being a mini achura. why? cause everyone will stick 5 in char put a couple to 9 and forget about variation. oh and guys the reason why these changes are coming in is fairly obvious when you fly around and 90% of the people you see are one bloodline, not even just one race a specific bloodline. Originally by: Silence Duegood As I've said many times in the past as well, if there's is ever an absolutely obvious optimal route in a game... then you've spotted a balance problem. great lets remove achura from the game then because there is a BIG balance problem standing right there.. and to save you time we'll just delete your char cause hey she was imbalanced against other races.. try a char planner sometime and sort by training time 99.999% of the time the top for char race/bloodline suggestions will be caldari/achura You're preaching to the choir, sister. I'm entirely against a single respec using the current structure on SiSi, precisely because of the reason you stated. If people want to claim that 90% of the playerbase is somehow the victim of screwing their character creation up then I'll allow them the concession that a single respec should be allowed. However, the window for balancing stats needs to be minimized so that the lowest a stat can be dropped does not favor heavily on the side of Achurites (is that the plural for Achura?!) If we're beginning the discussion of a single time respec then that issue needs to be resolved. However, I didn't create this thread to begin dealing with those nuances. This thread exists only to show the major flaw behind repeating respecs. So, you and I are basically saying the exact same thing.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp KenZoku	Posted - 2009.02.13 20:50:00 - [145] My idea was the best idea. Everyone else can stop arguing now. Honestly, opinions other than mine are really not worth the keyboard wear, so stop it. (Rodj is exempt from this ruling).
Elenath Gallente Bluebird Capital Management	Posted - 2009.02.13 22:53:00 - [146] Originally by: Concorduck Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Concorduck If you want a fight on everybody opinions, let me tell you that you're a moron forum trolls with 12 yo experience and a 8yo brain, and you lack common sense, sexual activity of any kind. I'm sure that you ~~win~~ won many debates with such a revolutionary technique. and yes, i did, because people can't just fight on facts Yeah, all those funny scientists all over the world acting so high and mighty, talking about facts like gravity and genetics. Stupid people. Why don't they just get over themselves and all those ridiculous facts!

CCP Mitnal C C P CCP	Posted - 2009.02.13 23:06:00 - [147] Cleaned. Removed troll posts and replies to them.

Vaedon Roid Ripper Industries	Posted - 2009.02.14 00:00:00 - [148] Originally by: Silence Duegood Your logic is flawed. I don't have to prove that everyone will do it, because, as I've already stated - 'Opting out of using an unbalanced option does not rebalance the game'. You see, whether or not people choose the obviously optimal training path doesn't negate its existence. Think of it as an unfair tax loophole - just because everyone doesn't bother using it doesn't mean that it should be left in place to be exploited. Alright. I misunderstood, my bad. I thought your primary concern was a perceived "cookie cutter" character syndrome. Obviously, no one is going to dissuade you from your POV (and kudos for stickin' to your guns...despite the fact I think you're wrong. ), but I'll point out a couple more things here before I quit. First, this is from your initial post: Quote: Scenario Day One - We max Perc and Will (let's say 33 and 26.4 respectively) During this period we train only Perc/Will skills Six Months later - We max Int and Mem During this period we train only Int/Mem skills Six Months later still - We max Will and Perc During this period we train only Will/Perc skills. Conclusion - How is the above scenario any different than a game that includes only two attributes instead of five where everyone can have max'd (and therefore optimal) attributes for any given training period? In answer to your question: By maxing out two of five stats, you are restricting what skills you train (and yes, I saw the posts on how it's not hard for vets to do that. You're conclusion above doesn't take that into account, so neither am I). If there were only two attributes, you would still have free reign to train anything and everything. No restrictions whatsoever. Second, this is one of three changes to the skill points mechanic with this expansion. The skill queue is one (although I don't see it having much/any bearing on this topic), but the other is skill point loss, via T3. This new mechanic has raised another rage of controversy. It has been postulated that veteran players will be the main users of T3 ships, and thus they will (likely) be losing more SP. If more mechanics are introduced that could result in skill point loss, would the attribute reassignment that is of more value to veterans (as you stated) not be a good thing? Just curious as to how you think the two will relate. You make a good argument, but I feel it's your logic that's flawed. I don't feel the system, as it is currently on SiSi is game breaking or unbalanced. It will allow folks to train faster, but how much faster is up to them. Like anything else in Eve, noobs will have to learn to use it properly in order to truly benefit from it. Others will have to balance getting some skills faster while essentially having to ignore others over a period of months. Veterans will indeed have their lives made easier, but you've also got something of a SP sink coming your way as well. I agree we disagree, and I'll leave it at that.
Draxzen Gallente VENOM72 Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.14 00:26:00 - [149] All of this discussion may turn out to be mostly pointless if they put a high teens or low 20's hard-cap on all attributes during the respec.
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.14 00:38:00 - [150] Edited by: Silence Duegood on 14/02/2009 00:40:59 Allow me to preface this by saying that itÆs finally nice to discuss this issue with someone that is using logic instead of namecalling. I wish you had stepped in here earlier. Originally by: Vaedon Obviously, no one is going to dissuade you from your POV (and kudos for stickin' to your guns...despite the fact I think you're wrong. ), but I'll point out a couple more things here before I quit. Honestly, I donÆt see how youÆve proven any of my stated points wrong (see post #91). IÆm more than happy to be wrong. I honestly hope IÆm wrong. But so far, I donÆt see how thatÆs the case. Originally by: Vaedon In answer to your question: By maxing out two of five stats, you are restricting what skills you train (and yes, I saw the posts on how it's not hard for vets to do that. You're conclusion above doesn't take that into account, so neither am I). If there were only two attributes, you would still have free reign to train anything and everything. No restrictions whatsoever. Fair point. However, thatÆs essentially restating what IÆve already said, and is another way of explaining how hurtful this change would be for newer players, while only helping vets. IÆm obviously not arguing that there are actually two attributes (IÆm not looking to argue semantics or touch on philosophy here), only that at any given time only two attributes are relevant. Regardless, I think we are both saying the same thing. Originally by: Vaedon Second, this is one of three changes to the skill points mechanic with this expansion. The skill queue is one (although I don't see it having much/any bearing on this topic), but the other is skill point loss, via T3. This new mechanic has raised another rage of controversy. It has been postulated that veteran players will be the main users of T3 ships, and thus they will (likely) be losing more SP. If more mechanics are introduced that could result in skill point loss, would the attribute reassignment that is of more value to veterans (as you stated) not be a good thing? Just curious as to how you think the two will relate. Interesting point. However, from what I understand the t3 ship destruction/skill point loss issue is another issue entirely. From my understanding it is not the player that loses skill points, but the ship. t3 ships gain 'experience' in and of themselves. When they are destroyed that æxpÆ is lost. For the sake of argument though, letÆs assume your above statement is true, and the player loses the skill points û would attribute reassignment being of more value to vets be more balanced? I suppose it might, assuming all vets will fly t3 ships and lose them with regularity. However, I think thatÆs a huge assumption. Many vets (take Cr. Caymus for example) don't often leave a station. There are plenty of vets that play industry/market/or other non-PVP classes that will still be able to take full advantage of this æoptimal training pathÆ. And, going back to my tax loophole example, anyone being able to exploit an unfair advantage constitutes a problem. Originally by: Vaedon You make a good argument, but I feel it's your logic that's flawed. I don't feel the system, as it is currently on SiSi is game breaking or unbalanced. It will allow folks to train faster, but how much faster is up to them. Like anything else in Eve, noobs will have to learn to use it properly in order to truly benefit from it. Others will have to balance getting some skills faster while essentially having to ignore others over a period of months. Veterans will indeed have their lives made easier, but you've also got something of a SP sink coming your way as well. As I mentioned above, I donÆt think thereÆs an SP sink on the way. And even assuming there will be, it wonÆt affect all of the vets. So, once again, thereÆs still an optimal path for training, and many folks will still be using it. Cont'd.

Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.14 00:38:00 - [151] Edited by: Silence Duegood on 14/02/2009 00:42:18 If you arenÆt personally upset by the change, then kudos to you for tolerating a problem that I myself canÆt tolerate. IÆve seen CCP say one too many times that they will æneverÆ add a particular feature, only to watch them add ità skill queues being one of them. IÆve always been drawn to EVE because of its unique nature. Changes such as this one are following a worrying pattern of homogeneity that is, in my humble opinion, the beginning of a slippery slope. IÆve played EVE since beta and it has changed quite a bit. In many ways for the better, and some ways for the worse. I honestly believe this would be one of the single worst changes in its history to date.
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.14 00:39:00 - [152] Originally by: Draxzen All of this discussion may turn out to be mostly pointless if they put a high teens or low 20's hard-cap on all attributes during the respec. Very true. If they do push this change through I hope that winds up being the case.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.02.14 00:48:00 - [153] The current implementation of respec is not reasonable. As the op explained it will lead only to even bigger advantages for the 'old boys' because they can easily afford 6 months training time in one group (carrier V anyone?), reaping the most benefits from min/max attributes while the new player must switch bewteen skillgroups (int/mem + per/wil) all the time. If CCP wants really that respec feature - though there is absolutely no reason except for marketing hype on the cost of useful gameplay - then they should limit the respec only on these extra 5 attribute points which everyone was able to distribute at character creation. Five attribute points are enough to make a difference in learning but it is not that much that we will have only absurd high min/max stats. Allow only those 5 points from character creation to respec!
Vaedon Roid Ripper Industries	Posted - 2009.02.14 03:03:00 - [154] Originally by: Silence Duegood Honestly, I don’t see how you’ve proven any of my stated points wrong (see post #91). I’m more than happy to be wrong. I honestly hope I’m wrong. But so far, I don’t see how that’s the case. /me hunts down post #91...mm, ok. Let me think on that for a bit. I might go back to it later. Quote: Fair point. However, that’s essentially restating what I’ve already said, and is another way of explaining how hurtful this change would be for newer players, while only helping vets. I’m obviously not arguing that there are actually two attributes (I’m not looking to argue semantics or touch on philosophy here), only that at any given time only two attributes are relevant. Regardless, I think we are both saying the same thing. lol! Sorry, I was being nitpicky. Quote: Interesting point. However, from what I understand the t3 ship destruction/skill point loss issue is another issue entirely. From my understanding it is not the player that loses skill points, but the ship. t3 ships gain 'experience' in and of themselves. When they are destroyed that ‘xp’ is lost. Sadly, no. What you described is what I was hoping for. Such is not the case. There are five "subsystem" skills per race that need to be trained in order to fly a T3 ship. If your ship is destroyed with you in it, you lose the equivilent of 1 level of training, picked at random. So if you are sitting at lvl 4 Gallente Defensive Systems, you could find yourself at lvl 3 after the explosion. Quote: For the sake of argument though, let’s assume your above statement is true, and the player loses the skill points – would attribute reassignment being of more value to vets be more balanced? I suppose it might, assuming all vets will fly t3 ships and lose them with regularity. However, I think that’s a huge assumption. It is a huge assumption, yes. However, I also believe that we're eventually going to get more than cruisers. Frigates and battleships for sure, possibly even battlecruisers or...dare I say it, capitals (can you imagine the hell that balancing those would/will be?). More ships likely means more vets flying them. Will all veterans fly T3? No. Will lots of them....maybe. Will they blow up....inevitably. Quote: As I mentioned above, I don’t think there’s an SP sink on the way. And even assuming there will be, it won’t affect all of the vets. So, once again, there’s still an optimal path for training, and many folks will still be using it. Aha! An optimal path. People focusing on two attributes to get skills trained as fast as possible, yes? This path has always been there. People reroll characters or make alts and make choices based solely on maximizing those attributes that will get them where they want to go the fastest. I believe the Achura have been mentioned once or twice. Research, combat, industry, trade. Don't they all have one particular race/bloodline that works best? Have another look at that chart. Soooo many skills with Int/Mem OR will/percep. And the skill paths they lead to are almost mutually exclusive. Maybe CCP should have varied the attribute/skill relationship a bit more. Either with more than five attributes and varying what was needed within a particular discipline (meaning more than just willpower/perception for gunnery skills for example), or having three or even four attributes affect a skill's training time. bah. I said I was finished, and look at what I've done. I couldn't help myself. It's not often I get to disagree with someone without being flamed into oblivion.
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.14 04:39:00 - [155] Originally by: Vaedon Sadly, no. What you described is what I was hoping for. Such is not the case. There are five "subsystem" skills per race that need to be trained in order to fly a T3 ship. If your ship is destroyed with you in it, you lose the equivilent of 1 level of training, picked at random. So if you are sitting at lvl 4 Gallente Defensive Systems, you could find yourself at lvl 3 after the explosion. Wow, interesting. Thanks for that bit of info. I had not heard that. If that is indeed how t3 will function upon going live (which I suspect might not be the case, since most people just wonÆt bother investing much into it) then I, personally, wonÆt hardly bother with t3. I personally see skill points (granted, IÆm a bit obsessive about them) as a resource wasted if lost (whether that be through actual loss, or simply neglected training time). I have two characters with over 100 mill skill points, and IÆll be damned if IÆm going to throw points (time - since theyÆre equal) away on some new ship type. IÆm also willing to bet many people feel the same way. IÆd suspect CCP soon find out that by treating t3 this way that theyÆre isolating it. Regardless, IÆm off topic here. Back to the discussion at hand. Originally by: Vaedon It is a huge assumption, yes. However, I also believe that we're eventually going to get more than cruisers. Frigates and battleships for sure, possibly even battlecruisers or...dare I say it, capitals (can you imagine the hell that balancing those would/will be?). More ships likely means more vets flying them. Will all veterans fly T3? No. Will lots of them....maybe. Will they blow up....inevitably. Possibly. However, weÆre still in the realm of assumptions here, and my statements above apply to your above quote, so horse=dead, I wonÆt beat it. Originally by: Vaedon Aha! An optimal path. People focusing on two attributes to get skills trained as fast as possible, yes? This path has always been there. People reroll characters or make alts and make choices based solely on maximizing those attributes that will get them where they want to go the fastest. I believe the Achura have been mentioned once or twice. Research, combat, industry, trade. Don't they all have one particular race/bloodline that works best? Have another look at that chart. Soooo many skills with Int/Mem OR will/percep. And the skill paths they lead to are almost mutually exclusive. This is where weÆll have to part ways. No, there has not always been an optimal path. Take an Achura for instance. Yes, they can bomb their charisma and boost the other more applicable attributes, but they still have four attributes that matter. Since any skill ægroupÆ only requires two then even Achura have non-optimal training periods because they (along with all other races/combos) cannot spike just the two applicable attributes at any given time. This is the crux of the problem with this respec idea. All characters will suddenly be allowed to spike both applicable attributes at any given time. This leads to an obvious optimal training path. Achura might have it easy at the moment, but they are a far cry from what every character will have the possibility to become with this respec patch. Cont'd.
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.14 04:39:00 - [156] Originally by: Vaedon Maybe CCP should have varied the attribute/skill relationship a bit more. Either with more than five attributes and varying what was needed within a particular discipline (meaning more than just willpower/perception for gunnery skills for example), or having three or even four attributes affect a skill's training time. bah. I said I was finished, and look at what I've done. I couldn't help myself. It's not often I get to disagree with someone without being flamed into oblivion. I think the easiest solution, assuming they are going to push this whole respec idea through (which I am against, for the record) is to limit how low any given attribute can be dropped to 6 (which, I believe, is the pre-Achura Ö limit) and the highest any attribute can be raised to no more than 30 or so. Anyhow, IÆve had a bit too much absinthe. Putting this post together was tough enough. IÆll likely have to wait till tomorrow to respond intelligibly.
Elenath Gallente Bluebird Capital Management	Posted - 2009.02.14 18:40:00 - [157] Originally by: Gnulpie Allow only those 5 points from character creation to respec! Best idea so far.
SketS47 Minmatar Alpha Intellectual Military Solutions	Posted - 2009.02.16 11:37:00 - [158] /signed get it out... :-) Only idiots quote themselves -SketS47-
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.02.16 12:44:00 - [159] noob max mem \| int train, learning + all support skills to 5 for 6 months [+ a couple of ship skills] respec to perception will train ship skills - result - 1 ****ed of noob -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
Lee Dalton Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.16 12:54:00 - [160] /signed The OP has a clue.

Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.16 16:55:00 - [161] Originally by: RaTTuS noob max mem \| int train, learning + all support skills to 5 for 6 months [+ a couple of ship skills] respec to perception will train ship skills - result - 1 ****ed of noob Precisely. This proves my point. Newer players (who require plenty of flexibility in training) are going to take a distant backseat to vets (who can easily dedicate to a sepcialized training program for six months). The Attribue Respec System (or ARSE Gäó for short ) is only going to hurt newer players and help vets, while reducing diversity within EVE.
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.23 21:12:00 - [162] I hope CCP have reasoned this problem out, and are finally considering scrapping this awful idea.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.02.23 21:18:00 - [163] I believe they have changed the time between repecs to 12 months. Probably had that number in mind all along if other test server bombshells through the years have been any indication. Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.23 21:25:00 - [164] Originally by: Zeba I believe they have changed the time between repecs to 12 months. Probably had that number in mind all along if other test server bombshells through the years have been any indication. I haven't checked Sisi lately, but a change to 12 months would be more reasonable. Makes min/maxing a bit more unattractive. While I'd still like to see the entire idea scrapped, a 12 month timer is certainly a step in the right direction.
Arana Tellen Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.02.23 21:57:00 - [165] In the 6-12 months time frame you have a really badly balanced character. Loads of spaceship command and no gunnery/missile skills for instance --------------------------------- Oh noes! Originally by: CCP Greyscale moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.02.23 22:04:00 - [166] Originally by: Arana Tellen In the 6-12 months time frame you have a really badly balanced character. Loads of spaceship command and no gunnery/missile skills for instance Bad example, seeing as how the spaceship command skills and the gunnery/missile skills all use the Per/Wil combo… GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=GÇª you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki
Trathen Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.23 22:23:00 - [167] I agree that this blands characters but do keep in mind that a new player gets two respecs in addition to the once per year, this allows them more control than you ever had when you rolled your character and they will still build SP faster. Furthermore, the change does not widen the new and old player gap. New players will start with the opportunities you didn't have and be able to build their first one to two years of SP faster than you did, even if its not min/maxing attributes. When they get to your level, they will be able to train skills just as quickly as you with the same method. Everyone will be getting SP faster than pre expansion, and that's probably a good thing when CCP plans on introducing new tech levels. _
Guillame Herschel Gallente Buffalo Soldiers	Posted - 2009.02.23 22:25:00 - [168] Originally by: Silence Duegood Let's say we have implemented this new stat redistribution plan on SiSi, and we can min/max our attribute points in any fashion twice a year You can't min/max, you can bump them a couple points at the expense of another attribute. Unless your attribute was already a couple of points from max, it's not going to be maxed by realloc. This thread is over now, OP had no clue. *-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then* --**
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.02.23 22:28:00 - [169] Originally by: Guillame Herschel You can't min/max, you can bump them a couple points at the expense of another attribute. Uhhmmm… You do know what min-maxing means, right? Quote: Unless your attribute was already a couple of points from max, it's not going to be maxed by realloc. This is incorrect. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=GÇª you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki
darkmancer	Posted - 2009.02.23 22:35:00 - [170] Edited by: darkmancer on 23/02/2009 22:35:25 I have to agree with Silence, I don't like the attribute respec (although I will be taking advantage of it). Although I think the problems go futher. Think about it what's the point of the attributes? In any game starting attributes are there to enforce your choice, want to become a "fighter" fine max out x & y, but you'll have less of w & z, so you'll be able to use pointy stick and wear +1 resist saucepan but you won't be able to curse your opponent with hemroids or wear the pointy hat of Merkin. But look at the skills & attributes in eve there's willpower, perception, inteligence, memory, and the useless attribute. in order to become a "fighter" you need skills in engineering, electronics, drones, gunnary, missles, space ship command, navigation, etc. These cover all the 4 main skill attributes. This leads to the main problem with skill respec, the concept of attributes is irrelvant to eve current gamestyle. The only thing respec's achieving is allowing people to get rid of useless attribute (i hope people have thought ahead and trained basic gang skills). Hows this for an idea get rid of attributes. Want to blow somebody up train turret x, want to research bpo's? train research why we have to be lumbered with attributes at all I don't know - they add nothing to the game. I'm sorry to say the Caldari have bought out all the Castles, the Gallente have voted to ban Giants, The Amarr have vaporised the Dragons, and the Minmater are introducing the knights mace to somewhere dark the knight never knew it could fit. Ditch the D&D attribute system. --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong

Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.23 22:38:00 - [171] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Originally by: Silence Duegood Let's say we have implemented this new stat redistribution plan on SiSi, and we can min/max our attribute points in any fashion twice a year You can't min/max, you can bump them a couple points at the expense of another attribute. Unless your attribute was already a couple of points from max, it's not going to be maxed by realloc. This thread is over now, OP had no clue. Wow, I love it when someone strolls into a thread without a single grasp of the facts, says something totally and completely wrong, and then calls the person with the facts clueless. You most certainly can mix/max. You are also totally and completely freaking wrong. You can respec every single point you have except those from implants, learning skills and (if I recall correctly, and it hasn't changed on Sisi in a week) a single point of your original base. Do you get it? The only single difference from what you could max at your original character creation and what you can max with a respec is (drum roll please) - one. How about you get your facts straight before you make an ass of yourself?
Silence Duegood	Posted - 2009.02.24 20:45:00 - [172] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Originally by: Silence Duegood Let's say we have implemented this new stat redistribution plan on SiSi, and we can min/max our attribute points in any fashion twice a year You can't min/max, you can bump them a couple points at the expense of another attribute. Unless your attribute was already a couple of points from max, it's not going to be maxed by realloc. This thread is over now, OP had no clue. I've been mashing F5 for the last 24 hours (not really) waiting to see what other gems of complete and total horsecrap Guillame Einstein has to offer. On another note, I haven't been able to connect to Sisi to check any changes to the respec system. Anyone know if it was indeed changed to one respec every 12 months?
Katsuro Michio Gallente Pacific Dawn	Posted - 2009.02.24 21:12:00 - [173] The last rumour I heard was 9 points every 12 months...


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Escalating penalties for multiple respecs.

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