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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 8 post(s)
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.02.15 18:32:00 - [31] So, question... if you want feedback and all that jazz for fine-tuning, can we assume you already have an INTENDED end-user pricetag, at least the rough order of magnitude ? And if yes, how large is it ? I mean, sure, we could complain that they will cost too much or too little, and everybody will cry either way, but if we at least know how much they're SUPPOSED to cost, we can give better suggestions for fixes/tweaks. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.15 18:32:00 - [32] Originally by: CCP Dropbear Thought this may help people wrap their heads around the process. Diagram of Tech III Production It's missing ore minerals. And are there going to be new w-space specific ore's?? ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Miniturret Amarr Mining Under the influence of Sugar Pals	Posted - 2009.02.15 18:34:00 - [33] so far seems pretty straight forward we'll see once it's released how well it actually works. Another note what does it take to get some dev love in the actual thread about the T3 cruisers?
keepiru Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.02.15 18:45:00 - [34] Originally by: Miniturret Once the ship is assembled and is blown up for w/e reason will the modular portions of the ship have a chance to drop as loot? IE the hull is blown up but the defensive system and propulsion system survive to be looted. That's how it is on sisi currently. ... and I really think they should boost T2 plate HP.
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2009.02.15 18:46:00 - [35] Edited by: Last Wolf on 15/02/2009 18:46:46 Originally by: CCP Dropbear Thought this may help people wrap their heads around the process. Diagram of Tech III Production Now I'm even more confused. Oh well. I'll be the one blowing them up, not building them Besides, I'm never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down

CCP Dropbear	Posted - 2009.02.15 18:48:00 - [36] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: CCP Dropbear Thought this may help people wrap their heads around the process. Diagram of Tech III Production It's missing ore minerals. And are there going to be new w-space specific ore's?? It does actually mention the involvement of minerals during the polymer reaction. I didn't chart it in as there are numerous sources for them and acquiring minerals is a process people are already familiar with. As for the other question. I haven't seen any new w-space specific ores in the design and I'm very confident that the only new "harvestable materials" are the fullerites to be found in gas clouds. I don't work in design, however, so I can't state that definitively. I'll leave it to Chronotis et al to field those kinds of questions, I just wanted to drop in with that diagram.

zacuis Great Big Research	Posted - 2009.02.15 18:50:00 - [37] i would very much like to know what is the rought ball park figure ccp hope these ships will retail at. ( mainly so i know who to ***** at in 6 months time when that figure is way out LOL ) personally i`d think in the 1-2 billin isk region for cruiser and a full change of clothes so to speak.
keepiru Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.02.15 18:52:00 - [38] Originally by: zacuis personally i`d think in the 1-2 billin isk region for cruiser and a full change of clothes so to speak. Considering how long it takes to gather enough mats for a single rig - OHAI, werent we supposed to get size-variant rigs and material conversions in this patch? - that figure is not entirely unlikely. ... and I really think they should boost T2 plate HP.
Red 7	Posted - 2009.02.15 18:54:00 - [39] Edited by: Red 7 on 15/02/2009 18:55:28 Edited by: Red 7 on 15/02/2009 18:54:41 While it all depends on drop rates and yield - based on the current salvage system for rigs & using their drop rate as a baseline - then T3 cruisers should be around the 150-250m ISK mark (assuming maturity - gold rush is likely to make the prices much higher initially).
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.15 19:05:00 - [40] Originally by: keepiru OHAI, werent we supposed to get size-variant rigs and material conversions in this patch? It sure sounded like that a few months ago, but there's no sign of it in the current version of Apocrypha on Sisi. ------------------ Ironfleet.com

Laszlo Ozawa	Posted - 2009.02.15 19:10:00 - [41] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Are the ore minerals and gas required to produce polymeres unique to w-space? how does a person without rudimentary reading comprehension skills get elected to the csm?
Rellik Sadab	Posted - 2009.02.15 19:29:00 - [42] Does this mean that you can target the different systems in the Tech III ships individually? Once I shoot though the shields can I then focus fire on the propulsion system? Weapons? If I can will it be only on Tech III ships or will that work on all ships?
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2009.02.15 19:49:00 - [43] Sounds cool.
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.02.15 19:49:00 - [44] Originally by: Red 7 While it all depends on drop rates and yield - based on the current salvage system for rigs & using their drop rate as a baseline - then T3 cruisers should be around the 150-250m ISK mark (assuming maturity - gold rush is likely to make the prices much higher initially). That looks like a very low estimate. The resource harvesting for T3 requires traditional harvesting methods (minerals) but also more exotic resources for which there is not a current profusion of player gatherers - e.g gas cloud harvesting. Also almost all the resources are in a high risk environment (WH Space). As a guide to T3 production we should look towards the Combat Booster market, where resources and producers are limited. I think we can expect initial gold rush prices to be at or around the 1 - 2bil mark, falling over a few months until stabilising at around the 500mil mark (slightly more for high demand subsystems). C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Manfred Rickenbocker The Elliance	Posted - 2009.02.15 19:51:00 - [45] Wow, just, wow. After reading it again and looking at the flow chart, two things come to mind: 1) This stuff will be extremely expensive and complicated, so much so that POSes with T3 material stuff will be targets of assault. 2) The mass limits on wormholes may not be sufficient to allow enough people/equipment into a system in order to make anything meaningful. This would need to be playtested though. ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times.
Tareen Kashaar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.02.15 19:55:00 - [46] Edited by: Tareen Kashaar on 15/02/2009 19:55:38 I just hope there will be plenty of wormholes, an plenty of sites in each wormhole system - thinking kind of like the average number of asteroid belts in k-space. Otherwise, combined with the incredibly unhandy new scanning system, this will be one hell of a frustrating grind. ____________
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.02.15 20:04:00 - [47] Originally by: Tareen Kashaar Edited by: Tareen Kashaar on 15/02/2009 19:55:38 I just hope there will be plenty of wormholes, an plenty of sites in each wormhole system - thinking kind of like the average number of asteroid belts in k-space. Otherwise, combined with the incredibly unhandy new scanning system, this will be one hell of a frustrating grind. With about 45% more systems (that's around the 2500 mark) wormholes should spawn at a rate of 1 every 3 systems or there abouts. Depends really upon how difficult they are to scan down - Ive not encountered any real problems with the new scanning system, its quite straight forward once you get to grips with it - and much less of a grind than watching that terrible timer. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Kel Zon	Posted - 2009.02.15 20:19:00 - [48] All this work for a really expensive cruiser that makes you lose SP you have trained in it when you go pop? They had better be pretty fing uber otherwise no one will go through the trouble. Remember all this is dependent on someone actually wanting to fly them rather than a HAC.
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2009.02.15 20:50:00 - [49] Total suck However if you promise not to ruin Tech IV by forcing POS grind on us then this rubbish is fair enough I guess MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
Arte Damage over Time	Posted - 2009.02.15 21:02:00 - [50] I wonder if any of the devs or players doing decent testing can give us further details on the balance of the resource gathering. Right now its reasonable speculation that you can get into W-space and, so long as the wormhole bandwidth doesn't get abused, get out quick enough to make use of your findings/rewards. Is the abundance of the resources (better sleeper salvage, more gas clouds, better quality BPCs, etc) higher in deeper W-Space? This would increase risk Vs reward of course, in the knowledge that you might not be able to get back to make use of what ever you find. (0r even (if reports are to be believed) stand a chance of survival against the Deep-W-Space Sleepers who I've read are kinda "OmgwtfBBQ-Pwnmobiles"). Will better equipped/skilled/grouped players find benefits of exploring deeper or will everyone be just as well off hanging around in the first W-Space system they find? This kinda leads on to my second question... Is it the intention that the mechanics of W-Space will be balanced so that (given time) T3CH will be reasonably abundant, even if it's not ever likely to be on the scale of T2?

Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.02.15 21:19:00 - [51] What I'd love to see closer to release time is a little bit about the background to Strategic Cruisers. What the design philosophy is behind them, what they are intended to be used for (presumably PvP?) and how common they are intended to be. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.02.15 21:23:00 - [52] hmmm..... sounds expensive, better start mining that veldspar. Originally by: keepiru Killing sleepers must provide more isk/hr than killing normal NPCs, including bounty, salvage and modules. If income goes below people will stop doing it until its worth the extra hassle again. On top of this, the stuff that must be acquired from W-Space exploration has to be worth pretty hefty piles of isk, or people will not be fitting those midslot modules. Mining fullerene gases must worth more isk/hr than mining ABCs. These NPCs are Uber, bringing an alt in a domi to tank the belt ain't gonna cut it. If at any point they don't risk/reward and supply:demand comes into play again. Now, take all of that, add in markup for the reaction/component makers, markup for the reverse engineers, markup for the assemblers. All the above determines the floor for T3 prices. Demand will drive them higher. For example, if it takes 1 hour of hulk-mining fullerenes, and one hour of sleeper ratting to get enough to build a T3 cruiser, you're looking at a floor of about 100m isk. As I said, I welcome our new 500-million-isk cruiser overlords. your floor figure doesn't even account for pos running fees, and hauling time. cant wait to see how the t3 market looks in a few months.
Halycon Gamma Caldari The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.15 21:24:00 - [53] Originally by: Arte This kinda leads on to my second question... Is it the intention that the mechanics of W-Space will be balanced so that (given time) T3CH will be reasonably abundant, even if it's not ever likely to be on the scale of T2? Give the arms race nature of the game. It'll kinda half to be. Currently we get tech3 cruisers. Give it another 1-3 years and we'll have tech3 frigates, battlecruisers, battleships, and all the wonderful stuff we want. Once CCP opens the door for tech3, you can't really stop with a single ship class. And for w-space to be able to front that sort of industry. It sorta needs to be reasonable abundant.
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.02.15 22:16:00 - [54] Originally by: keepiru Killing sleepers must provide more isk/hr than killing normal NPCs, including bounty, salvage and modules. If income goes below people will stop doing it until its worth the extra hassle again. On top of this, the stuff that must be acquired from W-Space exploration has to be worth pretty hefty piles of isk, or people will not be fitting those midslot modules. Mining fullerene gases must worth more isk/hr than mining ABCs. These NPCs are Uber, bringing an alt in a domi to tank the belt ain't gonna cut it. If at any point they don't risk/reward and supply:demand comes into play again. Now, take all of that, add in markup for the reaction/component makers, markup for the reverse engineers, markup for the assemblers. All the above determines the floor for T3 prices. Demand will drive them higher. For example, if it takes 1 hour of hulk-mining fullerenes, and one hour of sleeper ratting to get enough to build a T3 cruiser, you're looking at a floor of about 100m isk. As I said, I welcome our new 500-million-isk cruiser overlords. I agree. If there is not significant incentive for someone to intentionally seek out and gather the resources necessary for t3ch production (or an incredible abundance of easily accessible resources), we're looking at another rich kid's toy whose production is dominated by already well-established organizations. Basically... I think the resources will need to be easy to get (almost over-available) in order to keep costs down. Or this'll just be an under-utilized novelty.
Steve Thomas	Posted - 2009.02.15 22:25:00 - [55] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: CCP Dropbear Thought this may help people wrap their heads around the process. Diagram of Tech III Production It's missing ore minerals. And are there going to be new w-space specific ore's?? you also forgot to add in balloons for ???? and Profit.
Wendre	Posted - 2009.02.15 22:26:00 - [56] Originally by: CCP Dropbear Thought this may help people wrap their heads around the process. Diagram of Tech III Production Data cores, not date cores, unless T3 is the super-secret 'love production' mechanism for WiS....
Steve Thomas	Posted - 2009.02.15 22:30:00 - [57] Originally by: Akita T So, question... if you want feedback and all that jazz for fine-tuning, can we assume you already have an INTENDED end-user pricetag, at least the rough order of magnitude ? And if yes, how large is it ? I mean, sure, we could complain that they will cost too much or too little, and everybody will cry either way, but if we at least know how much they're SUPPOSED to cost, we can give better suggestions for fixes/tweaks. Ive gotten the impresion that they themselves cant ever quite agree on what things should cost for T2 and named drop items.
Dr Resheph Amarr YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY	Posted - 2009.02.15 22:57:00 - [58] My my.. seems I hit a nerve when I pointed out how this was the same gameplay we already have. Here's a protip, but if the designers want to do something special with Tech 3 manufacturing, they need to make the resources unique on the game mechanics front. Such that it doesn't simply serve as a means to an end, but serves as an important dynamic in WH space, relevant to PVE and PVP. If the gas harvesting is as lame as fitting a module and waiting till your hold is full, then there's no hope for the other steps in the chain.
vvizard NOR	Posted - 2009.02.15 23:02:00 - [59] Originally by: Aydjile can you please explain why they called "strategic" and not "tactical"? here wiki - Military tactics (Greek: Taktikē, the art of organizing an army) are the techniques for using weapons or military units in combination for engaging and defeating an enemy in battle. Changes in philosophy and technology over time have been reflected in changes to military tactics. and here too - strategy is a plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal. Strategy is profoundly different from tactics. In military terms, tactics is concerned with the conduct of an engagement while strategy is concerned with how different engagements are linked. In other words, how a battle is fought is a matter of tactics: whether it should be fought at all is a matter of strategy. Strategy is relevant to many areas of life, from getting the right date for the school disco to running a business. For example, the goal of a company may be to increase profits: the strategy chosen might be to undertake an advertising campaign; invest in a new computer system; or adjust pricing. From my experience (some years in active military duty) I tend to sum up the whole strategic/tactical discussion like this, when trying to explain military strategy/tactics to other people in the military: "Strategic decisions are long-term decisions, taken by generals or politicians, and might change the outcome of a war. Tactical decisions are short-term decisions taken by various brigade, battalion, company, platoon and squad leaders (or by the private rifleman himself), and might change weather you and the guys next to you survive this battle or not. Deciding what toys (hardware) you send into war is a strategic decision. Deciding how you actually use them during battle is a tactical decision for commanders lower on the food chain. I would simply say that T3 cruisers can be said to have a "strategic" effect if one alliance is able to produce them on a much larger scale than their opponents, and in turn give that alliance a weapon the enemy cant find an effective counter against. On the other hand, they could have a "tactical effect" by being warped into the middle of a battle, and securing a victory for one of the sides, because the opposing force wasn't prepared to fight against them. Which one it will be, only time will tell I guess. My perception of strategy vs. tactical decisions is a "dumbed down" version I've just found easy for people to grasp. Military experts are calling this a "grunt explanation".
Smoke Adian Caldari Northern Storm	Posted - 2009.02.15 23:19:00 - [60] Very nice! It's too bad chemists gave Fullerene that such a lame name. A cool gas like that deserves better. :(



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