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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Ralitge boyter
Minmatar BrightSpark Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.16 15:01:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Washell Olivaw
Originally by: Ralitge boyter In short CCP has made yet another tool to make the rich far richer,
Money makes money? OMG! Stop the presses!
It's impossible to create a system where people with established logistics, manpower and investment won't have an edge.
It is possible to as I stated before not spawn the very best harvesting spots all in the same regions that already have the officer spawns and the highend ore and the 10/10 complexes and well pretty much everything else that is worth anything in EVE. CCP is concentrating all the wealth in highly developed area's of the game world and leaving other area's to basically just give these small area's a little extra income as these area's consume the surplus from the richest parts. CCP is making the same mistake they made before, by making a very small area with a very well established and powerful group extreamly desirable you do not create more wars you just create less of them. The strong group will get so strong that unless like what happened to BoB they are taken down from the inside they will never ever be removed from their seat of absolute power, because they can afford to always send more bigger and better troops on to the battle field.
I am not that stupid that I would not know that more ISK makes more ISK and that that will never change what I am against is that CCP didn't put the best wormholes in low sec or even in high sec, make the 0.0 power houses have to put in some effort into it. Instead CCP gave them an even stronger hold on their space.
CCP is more and more splitting the EVE community into seperate groups the 0.0 power houses that have it all and can sit on their throne without any worries about the outside world. The fools in the rest of 0.0 and low sec that hope to over throw the 0.0 power houses and always end up loosing due to an imposibility to match the war chests of these extreamly rich groups out in 0.0. And of course the low and high sec players that know that they are not going to ever stand a chance against the power houses and will simply grind their missions and chat with friends because there is not much else to do in EVE.
So not an the rich get richer, but an not again less of a reason for the power houses to worry about the outside world. ------------------------------------------- Should you disagree with me, well I guess that is because I disagree with you. If you have a problem with that please feel free not to tell me. |
Ralitge boyter
Minmatar BrightSpark Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.16 15:12:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Masque Blanc To get together the correct components and the correct six reverse engineered bpcs (just to build the first ship) is going to be difficult. To get together extra subsystems to really use tech3 as designed is going to be very difficult.
Sounds really nice. So they are pushing manufacturing towards requiring a chain of supply as complex as EvE can handle.
T2 might have been hard back when there were fewer players, and same for T1. In a few years T3 will be in the same position as T2.
I highly doubt that as the resources needed for T1 and T2 are a constant and can be given enough investment run to match the demand without having to rely on a uncertain supply of any material manufacturers can setup a profitable production chain. T3 is going to be like the T2 rigs, with a very uncertain supply and no chance what so ever for any one group (besides the biggest few) to provide a steady supply of goods needed for constant production. Even worse there are multiple factors of chance build in to the process of T3 resulting in an imposibble production setup as there is no way to get a steady supply of pretty much anything.
With the T2 rigs costing about ten times that of the T1 versions count on these cruisers costinf about 10 times that of the command ships. They will cost billions and even then there is no way anyone will be able to setup a reliable production line because of the fluctuating supply of raw material.
T3 = Boosters v2 (CCP should kick out the person making these game design decissions) ------------------------------------------- Should you disagree with me, well I guess that is because I disagree with you. If you have a problem with that please feel free not to tell me. |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 15:26:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 16/02/2009 15:26:33 I agree with the people *****ing about the whole strategic/tactical thing; they really need to be renamed tactical. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei Guardian Federation
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Posted - 2009.02.16 15:32:00 -
[94]
The problem is with the supply. As long as there is a steady supply from Gas clouds and Sleeper parts and as long as hacking sites drop enough components, the production would work.
It depends on , whether there is enough to supply for an active market, it could work, but if there is one or even multiple bottlenecks, then T3 will become a design failure of epic proportions, just like the implementation of Rogue Drone Parts or the Booster Production.
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Vyktor Abyss
IONSTAR Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:13:00 -
[95]
I hope you balance it effectively so that Archeology vs. Hacking vs Salvaging professions are not massively skewed towards one or the other.
Please CCP, do keep tabs on the numbers of different sites being run over the first few months so that for example: you dont end up with 95% of people running hacking, 4% salvaging and 1% archeology because the "TIII component BPCs" are 10 times more important, useful, rare, and hence valuable than most ancient relics.
Can you also confirm there will be no infinite run "BPOs" for any parts of TIII Production? Please if it is only BPCs then do balance the runs accordingly so we're not left with millions of surplus runs of X subsystem, but badly needing runs of Y hull chassis.
Please introduce a T2 Mining frigate specifically designed for Gas Mining ASAP. You will effectively be calling on a small pool of players who would likely normally be high/low/null sec mining for ISK in very advanced mining vessels. Surely some specific (and special) mining vessal would be appropriate for Gas Mining - And initially I would suggest using T2 Mining frigats because:
i) The are low mass, hence make moving in and out of wormhole space without collapsing the entry/exit so quickly. ii) They look cool, should be cool but are completely useless in the current game. iii) Miners and Gas mining specialists will want an appropriate tool for the job rather than using a gimped battleship or whatever.
Will there be any market mechanics in Wormhole space to buy and sell the produce out there? - Please make sure there is a limited market for brave traders IN wormhole space. I personally would like to see very small "Black Market" type structures that players could anchor and base a small trading/ship re-fitting operation from WITHIN wormhole space.
This would: i) Encourage / enable people to resupply out in wormhole space whilst providing potential profit for logistic ii) Encourage / enable trade in "busy" wormhole system pockets iii) Provide possibilities for PVPer "protection racketeering" of these facilities iv) Add a dynamic "riskier" trading in wormhole space
These are just my initial thoughts and hopes. TL DR is bolded for Devs as in 3+ years of posting I've never had feedback on any ideas, comments, questions etc, so I'm beginning to believe you don't read "long" posts.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:14:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Ralitge boyter I highly doubt that as the resources needed for T1 and T2 are a constant and can be given enough investment run to match the demand without having to rely on a uncertain supply of any material manufacturers can setup a profitable production chain.
That's what makes it so nice. While the T2 rig material production is way too small, the aggregated T3 material production will be large enough unless CCP messes up.
HOWEVER, what it _WON'T_ be, is that it won't be easily handled by a single entity. Even rather large ones. Thus you will end up with a lot of small to large scale suppliers of the raw materials to the markets, and other entities gather these in order to produce the required T3 items.
Just like in the real world, few manufacturers handle the whole chain from digging in the ground for raw materials up to building LCD screens.
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Komen
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:50:00 -
[97]
Hmmm. So, well-financed, organized groups are going to be more proficient at T3 production than smaller, poorer, less organized groups.
And trying to do it all from one account would be very, very difficult.
CCP, you DOGS! Yet another underhanded move to get more accounts per player. I bet we see a return of the Power of Two when Apocrypha launches.
And now, my sig:
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Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.02.16 17:34:00 -
[98]
To be honest, I'm still thinking about the confident statements that most wormhole resources won't be solo-available due to the pain levels brought by W-space rats.
If that turns out to be true, I fear the supply crunch might be extreme. When people group up for adventure in EVE, they want to fight. A small gang gears up to go wormholing (sounds obscene), who's going to volunteer to fly the ship with five gas harvesters high?
Sure, enough ISK and it will happen. But judging by existing game mechanics (think low-sec mining), the ISK value has to be extreme or it won't happen. This, to me, suggests that it's going to take a very high price point on all the components to get them on the market in volume, making the final product really really expensive.
How good does a Strategic Cruiser have to BE if it turns out to cost 300 million ISK? I haven't heard any rumors from SISI suggesting they will be that awesome.
Of course I'm waiting for more info and testing, I remain hopeful, etc; I'm not one of these people who tells CCP their stuff is broken before I even see it. But I'm having a real hard time wrapping my head around how this is going to come together successfully in anything but the most miniscule quantities. ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Harisdrop
Gallente Fat J Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.02.16 17:53:00 -
[99]
As long as NPC corp members are not allowed to use POS I am good.
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Aethrwolf
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.16 18:10:00 -
[100]
Originally by: vvizard NOR
Originally by: Aydjile can you please explain why they called "strategic" and not "tactical"?
here wiki -
Military tactics (Greek: Taktikē, the art of organizing an army) are the techniques for using weapons or military units in combination for engaging and defeating an enemy in battle. Changes in philosophy and technology over time have been reflected in changes to military tactics.
and here too -
strategy is a plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal.
Strategy is profoundly different from tactics. In military terms, tactics is concerned with the conduct of an engagement while strategy is concerned with how different engagements are linked. In other words, how a battle is fought is a matter of tactics: whether it should be fought at all is a matter of strategy.
Strategy is relevant to many areas of life, from getting the right date for the school disco to running a business. For example, the goal of a company may be to increase profits: the strategy chosen might be to undertake an advertising campaign; invest in a new computer system; or adjust pricing.
From my experience (some years in active military duty) I tend to sum up the whole strategic/tactical discussion like this, when trying to explain military strategy/tactics to other people in the military:
"Strategic decisions are long-term decisions, taken by generals or politicians, and might change the outcome of a war. Tactical decisions are short-term decisions taken by various brigade, battalion, company, platoon and squad leaders (or by the private rifleman himself), and might change weather you and the guys next to you survive this battle or not.
Deciding what toys (hardware) you send into war is a strategic decision. Deciding how you actually use them during battle is a tactical decision for commanders lower on the food chain.
I would simply say that T3 cruisers can be said to have a "strategic" effect if one alliance is able to produce them on a much larger scale than their opponents, and in turn give that alliance a weapon the enemy cant find an effective counter against.
On the other hand, they could have a "tactical effect" by being warped into the middle of a battle, and securing a victory for one of the sides, because the opposing force wasn't prepared to fight against them.
Which one it will be, only time will tell I guess.
My perception of strategy vs. tactical decisions is a "dumbed down" version I've just found easy for people to grasp. Military experts are calling this a "grunt explanation".
or to put it even simpler.. tactical errors screw you NOW, strategic errors screw you now AND later
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Valrandir
Gallente Blood Inquisition
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:32:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Laszlo Ozawa
Originally by: Pattern Clarc Are the ore minerals and gas required to produce polymeres unique to w-space?
how does a person without rudimentary reading comprehension skills get elected to the csm?
Using Democracy ; )
This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware. |
Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:34:00 -
[102]
Originally by: iudex Ok this sounds nice, but will there be Tech 3 battleship hulls as well ? I don't like small ships, my ego doesn't fit in a ship smaller than a battlecruiser. Any chance there will be some big Tech 3 stuff in future ?
I have same question ringing in my ears, as cruiser size hulls are perhaps reasonable for level 3 missions if pimped hard enough, but level 4 would kinda ask at least battlecruiser sized. That is unless I can do something stupiduber in cruiser size like 8 missile hislots with rof and damage bonus and enough mids for tank (say - 4 slots to 5 slots) and at least 3 lows for BCU's.
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Crode
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.16 20:02:00 -
[103]
I don't care if I ever get to fly one of these overly expensive cruisers but being able to get in on some of the mining would be nice. The only problem I see is this: Who in their right mind would fly any mining ship into a wormhole and expect to not loose their ship.
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Strom Nekth
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Posted - 2009.02.17 01:41:00 -
[104]
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Originally by: CCP Dropbear Thought this may help people wrap their heads around the process.
Diagram of Tech III Production
It's missing ore minerals.
And are there going to be new w-space specific ore's??
It does actually mention the involvement of minerals during the polymer reaction. I didn't chart it in as there are numerous sources for them and acquiring minerals is a process people are already familiar with.
As for the other question. I haven't seen any new w-space specific ores in the design and I'm very confident that the only new "harvestable materials" are the fullerites to be found in gas clouds. I don't work in design, however, so I can't state that definitively. I'll leave it to Chronotis et al to field those kinds of questions, I just wanted to drop in with that diagram.
Does that mean that there aren't going to be gravimetric sites in W-Space? If there are no new mineable minerals and you face formidable mining challenges (wormhole transport limitations, super-tough npc spawns, hauling distance from random wormhole exit to market, risk of being trapped in W-Space) then it seems as though there'd be very little motivation to do conventional mining in W-Space?
I.e. Same isk reward as now for more risk and more time investment.
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roq deelim
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Posted - 2009.02.17 01:55:00 -
[105]
it's pretty simple.. its all about fun & profit. if you need 5 people to work together for about a day to get one t3 cruiser, there is no way this thing will be available @ 150m. go for current marauder prices.. i'm producing rigs on a large scale...just imagine the step in availibility and cost for t2 rig salvage parts and bpc...i think its nothing compared to the efforts of "collecting" everything needed for a t3 ship... lets say scaning down a wormhole is a piece of cake, one person can do this..but how much time and how many ppl do you need to have a chance of killing sleepers, salvaging materials and hacking containers and stuff...and even then you need the polymer reaction stuf...bla bla bla... to me it reads ridiculously difficult to acomplish in a small high sec corp without a ton of isk...
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bigbillthaboss2
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Posted - 2009.02.17 03:47:00 -
[106]
What skills are we looking at to harvest these gases and produce the polymers, already established gas mining skills or newer ones?
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.17 07:16:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Carniflex I have same question ringing in my ears, as cruiser size hulls are perhaps reasonable for level 3 missions if pimped hard enough, but level 4 would kinda ask at least battlecruiser sized. That is unless I can do something stupiduber in cruiser size like 8 missile hislots with rof and damage bonus and enough mids for tank (say - 4 slots to 5 slots) and at least 3 lows for BCU's.
Tell that to people who solo lvl 4 missions and the really difficult escalation sites using nothing but a cruiser-hulled cerb.
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Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.17 08:59:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Carniflex I have same question ringing in my ears, as cruiser size hulls are perhaps reasonable for level 3 missions if pimped hard enough, but level 4 would kinda ask at least battlecruiser sized. That is unless I can do something stupiduber in cruiser size like 8 missile hislots with rof and damage bonus and enough mids for tank (say - 4 slots to 5 slots) and at least 3 lows for BCU's.
Tell that to people who solo lvl 4 missions and the really difficult escalation sites using nothing but a cruiser-hulled cerb.
Well, you can do most of them even in Hawk if you put your mind into it. However I would not consider this to be effective approach as I do missions to get isk for my 'fun' part of game. Missions are just my form of iskgrind. For Tech 3 to be 'worth it' for it they would need to offer me faster mission completion time (at least in some missions) than my current platforms a Golem, CNR and latest addition to my missionrunning fleet - Nightmare.
It is somewhat unlikely, that cruiser size hull can do that unless one can pimp it to stupiduber levels, where they can outperform Nighthawk (T2 Battlecruiser).
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Luna Nilaya
Blood Works Inc. Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2009.02.17 09:39:00 -
[109]
I wonder how expensive these things are going to be. Even HAC prices are getting out of hand once again, so I doubt I'll be flying these any time soon. -
Installing premium content... Deleting file: \boot.ini |
Red 7
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Posted - 2009.02.17 12:57:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Luna Nilaya I wonder how expensive these things are going to be. Even HAC prices are getting out of hand once again, so I doubt I'll be flying these any time soon.
Best info: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=999792&page=3#78
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Zex Maxwell
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.17 13:47:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Zex Maxwell on 17/02/2009 13:48:09 the salvage/hacking sites, what level of difficulty are the rats at? do we fly in a BC or BS to tank them?
Can they be completed by one person or a group of 3?
(I never found a Wormhole yet, in Sisi, so I don't know what the sites are like.)
---
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Red 7
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Posted - 2009.02.17 14:11:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Red 7 on 17/02/2009 14:12:05
Originally by: Zex Maxwell Edited by: Zex Maxwell on 17/02/2009 13:48:09 the salvage/hacking sites, what level of difficulty are the rats at? do we fly in a BC or BS to tank them?
Can they be completed by one person or a group of 3?
(I never found a Wormhole yet, in Sisi, so I don't know what the sites are like.)
The Sleeper threads will have more information than this, the T3 construction thread (or the forum mods will spank).
But in summary: NPC's in the "easier" or "less rich" W-Space systems should be soloable which doesn't mean they will be easy :)
Sleepers (the ones the devs in system said are more realistic) in FD- on SISI they are very doable in BS's - not tried BC's yet but I would imagine this would work also (depending on tank, skills, etc). As to how tough the NPC's will be in the exploration sites - it depends on the "toughness" of the site. On the NPC AI thread there was talk by the devs about the NPC's coming in 2's (pardon the pun). Last I read you should expect an NPC spawn to take approx 20 mins to kill. Sleepers appear to do split dmg (2 dmg types at the same time) - login to SISI and checkout the Sleeper faction ammo.
More complex Sleeper spawns will require a group to take out & it appears that Sleepers share target information - which means aggro can & will suddenly switch. Until the WH's are working on SISI - it's hard to know for sure about the complexity or toughness of the exploration sites which are part of the T3 production process.
The biggest issue with the T3 production so far, from what I can see, is that you can make all the reactions, reverse engineering, parts and subsystems in W-Space - but you can't actually construct a ship. You'll have to haul the parts back into K-Space and use a station to complete a ship. Painful for those that would like to get lost exploring in W-Space.
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Letrange
Minmatar Mobile Alcohol Processing Units United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.17 20:03:00 -
[113]
Data Interfaces
Will the wormhole site cans actually have the Hybrid Data Interfaces? or will it be some "stuff" and Hybrid Data Interfaces BPCs like it is for the T2 Data Interfaces?
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience Rally Against Evil
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Posted - 2009.02.18 00:11:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Sidrat Flush on 18/02/2009 00:11:40 With the up coming patch it would be a great idea to allow reactions and advanced reactions in Empire space. Well 0.7 and below at least.
I THINK I understand why it's done the way you did, but how many characters have actually SEEN a gas cloud? I MAY have the skill to use a gas harvester, but to my knowledge I haven't seen one.
The stories make some sense kinda, although different minerals would have been easier on the little grey cells.
Have you made T3 production complicated and expensive on purpose?
EDIT: This is a gut reaction post. -------------------------- Life is about memories the more the better.
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Celia Therone
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Posted - 2009.02.18 00:39:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Sidrat Flush I THINK I understand why it's done the way you did, but how many characters have actually SEEN a gas cloud? I MAY have the skill to use a gas harvester, but to my knowledge I haven't seen one.
Gas clouds are in ladar exploration sites. I saw one last night in low sec (close to a 0.0 border). You actually have to deliberately set out to find gas clouds with a character that has decent exploration skills and if you don't have the gas harvesting skill then there's no reason to do so. I didn't bother to scan that site down, for example, but I did scan down two other sites in the same system and completed them so I could probably have got the ladar too if I'd cared.
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AonChilo
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.18 01:52:00 -
[116]
The "Strategic Cruiser" thing sounds very nice. I am sure many players will see it as a nice addition to Eve. Well done!
I will admit for me personally, I probably will never really get into it though. As an older player, my RL time is a little more precious. I cannot spend too much RL time to dwell into ever more complicated ship setups, production methods, and so forth. I live in 0.0 and 9 out of 10 times, I fly the same 3 or 4 ships for PVP and PVE. I try to keep my gaming simple.
But honestly, I really do think its still cool. If people can reconfigure, redesign, refit or even bend their ships into a pretzel to maximize some potential out of it, then more power to them. I suppose it is pretty nifty and I hope it makes the game more interesting for people...
Cheers!
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Zsprinkler
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Posted - 2009.02.18 06:01:00 -
[117]
sounds like more lowsec bull**** bingo. screw anyone who wants to not play/fly in the fraktastic lag of alliance ****.
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Clansworth
Blackwater USA Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.18 13:40:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Red 7 The biggest issue with the T3 production so far, from what I can see, is that you can make all the reactions, reverse engineering, parts and subsystems in W-Space - but you can't actually construct a ship. You'll have to haul the parts back into K-Space and use a station to complete a ship. Painful for those that would like to get lost exploring in W-Space.
Is this true? What is the method for assembling the ships? I had assumed that since it was basically a hull, with the extra components added through the new fitting interface, that it could be assembled at a POS based (or even cap ship based) SMA. Obviously, haven't tried it yet though.
System Influence |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.02.18 13:48:00 -
[119]
Thanks for the feedback so far!
The production chain was updated to reduce essentially the total effort required to build a complete strategic cruiser and can be tested in the latest singularity build (80418). Feedback and comments would be appreciated in the game development feedback thread here. The concept of the three stage process is unchanged but the number of different materials required at the three stages has been reduced.
The answer some specific questions here:
Will the component and subsystem/hull blueprints all be copies?
Yes, component blueprints are found in the profession sites so will be in constant demand. The subsystem and hull blueprints are reverse engineered from ancient relics. The polymer reactions however are seeded on the market along with the necessary structures.
With the focus on gas cloud harvesting and mini professions - will it get some love?
Yes, some minor changes are happening in Apocrypha. The gas cloud harvester blueprint will be seeded on the market and in addition the Tech II versions of the salvager, codebreaker, analyzer and gas cloud harvester have been added and can be invented.
In the future beyond Apocrypha 1.0, we are looking at the gas cloud harvesting mechanic, possibly repurposing the procurer to have a gas cloud harvesting bonus and the current bonus of the gas cloud harvesting skill.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.18 16:55:00 -
[120]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis In the future beyond Apocrypha 1.0, we are looking at the gas cloud harvesting mechanic, possibly repurposing the procurer to have a gas cloud harvesting bonus and the current bonus of the gas cloud harvesting skill.
You really think anyone's going to bring a procurer to w-space, even with a bonus?
If you go so far as giving a ship gas harvesting bonus, then give us something _USEFUL_. Like a well-tanked T2 hull capable of surviving in w-space.
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