Quote:

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Ancient relics are found in wormhole space where you need to reverse engineer them in a research job at an experimental laboratory starbase structure or the Caldari research outpost.

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Originally by: Steve Thomas

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Quote:

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Ancient relics are found in wormhole space where you need to reverse engineer them in a research job at an experimental laboratory starbase structure or the Caldari research outpost.

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OK so we HAVE to set up poses in Wspace then just to do this or was this poorly worded?

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Originally by: Steve Thomas

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Quote:

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Ancient relics are found in wormhole space where you need to reverse engineer them in a research job at an experimental laboratory starbase structure or the Caldari research outpost.

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OK so we HAVE to set up poses in Wspace then just to do this or was this poorly worded?

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Originally by: Dr Resheph

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Edited by: Dr Resheph on 15/02/2009 16:32:32
It sounds like you guys couldn't do anything interesting, mechanics-wise, so you threw together a mix of salvaging, gas mining and standard npc whacking. Tech 3 is booster and rig production combined.

And while it sounds complex, you've made it so there's no limited resource to compete over. The rewards are always going to be proportional to the time spent grinding, and distributed evenly by the number of participants. More participants? More NPCs farmed. Tech 3 margins are guaranteed to crash under this system because the price is a combination of fixed costs, raw resource value and manpower. Which is going to devalue standard NPCing considerably.

This entire Tech level is a sad extension of what we already have, both in combat and in industry.

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Originally by: Dr Resheph

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Edited by: Dr Resheph on 15/02/2009 16:32:32
It sounds like you guys couldn't do anything interesting, mechanics-wise, so you threw together a mix of salvaging, gas mining and standard npc whacking. Tech 3 is booster and rig production combined.

And while it sounds complex, you've made it so there's no limited resource to compete over. The rewards are always going to be proportional to the time spent grinding, and distributed evenly by the number of participants. More participants? More NPCs farmed. Tech 3 margins are guaranteed to crash under this system because the price is a combination of fixed costs, raw resource value and manpower. Which is going to devalue standard NPCing considerably.

This entire Tech level is a sad extension of what we already have, both in combat and in industry.

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Originally by: Aydjile

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can you please explain why they called "strategic" and not "tactical"?

here wiki -

Military tactics (Greek: Taktikē, the art of organizing an army) are the techniques for using weapons or military units in combination for engaging and defeating an enemy in battle. Changes in philosophy and technology over time have been reflected in changes to military tactics.


and here too -

strategy is a plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal.

Strategy is profoundly different from tactics. In military terms, tactics is concerned with the conduct of an engagement while strategy is concerned with how different engagements are linked. In other words, how a battle is fought is a matter of tactics: whether it should be fought at all is a matter of strategy.

Strategy is relevant to many areas of life, from getting the right date for the school disco to running a business. For example, the goal of a company may be to increase profits: the strategy chosen might be to undertake an advertising campaign; invest in a new computer system; or adjust pricing.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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Originally by: Kalib Stark

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I want to come out of wormhole space 31 jumps from my POS!!!! EVERY TIME!!!! Oh please, please,....

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Originally by: Tsabrock

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My biggest question that was not answered is what Security Level will all of these new structures be able to be anchored in? Traditionally, reactors have only been deployable in low-sec space, but since all of the equipment necessary for Tech III are new facilities, does this mean that they will be usable in high-sec space?

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Originally by: Gnulpie

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Originally by: Kalib Stark

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I want to come out of wormhole space 31 jumps from my POS!!!! EVERY TIME!!!! Oh please, please,....

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Then buy the polymers from the market?

Or just setup your pos in wormspace for a while. Did you have a look at the numbers? Do you know how much is necessary? Maybe you only need a few days reacting gas to have enough polymers ready for many tech3 subsystems/hulls. Maybe you can get filthy rich from these polymers if you do the reaction at a pos in wormspace - no risk, no reward.

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Quote:

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It sounds like you guys couldn't do anything interesting, mechanics-wise, so you threw together a mix of salvaging, gas mining and standard npc whacking. Tech 3 is booster and rig production combined.

And while it sounds complex, you've made it so there's no limited resource to compete over. The rewards are always going to be proportional to the time spent grinding, and distributed evenly by the number of participants. More participants? More NPCs farmed. Tech 3 margins are guaranteed to crash under this system because the price is a combination of fixed costs, raw resource value and manpower. Which is going to devalue standard NPCing considerably.

This entire Tech level is a sad extension of what we already have, both in combat and in industry.

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Originally by: CCP Dropbear

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Thought this may help people wrap their heads around the process.

Diagram of Tech III Production

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Originally by: Miniturret

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Once the ship is assembled and is blown up for w/e reason will the modular portions of the ship have a chance to drop as loot?

IE the hull is blown up but the defensive system and propulsion system survive to be looted.

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Originally by: CCP Dropbear

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Thought this may help people wrap their heads around the process.

Diagram of Tech III Production

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Originally by: Pattern Clarc

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Originally by: CCP Dropbear

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Thought this may help people wrap their heads around the process.

Diagram of Tech III Production

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It's missing ore minerals.

And are there going to be new w-space specific ore's??

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Originally by: zacuis

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personally i`d think in the 1-2 billin isk region for cruiser and a full change of clothes so to speak.

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Originally by: keepiru

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OHAI, werent we supposed to get size-variant rigs and material conversions in this patch?

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Originally by: Pattern Clarc

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Are the ore minerals and gas required to produce polymeres unique to w-space?

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Originally by: Red 7

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While it all depends on drop rates and yield - based on the current salvage system for rigs & using their drop rate as a baseline - then T3 cruisers should be around the 150-250m ISK mark (assuming maturity - gold rush is likely to make the prices much higher initially).

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Originally by: Capa

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So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.

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Originally by: Tareen Kashaar

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Edited by: Tareen Kashaar on 15/02/2009 19:55:38
I just hope there will be plenty of wormholes, an plenty of sites in each wormhole system - thinking kind of like the average number of asteroid belts in k-space. Otherwise, combined with the incredibly unhandy new scanning system, this will be one hell of a frustrating grind.

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Originally by: Capa

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So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.

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• Is the abundance of the resources (better sleeper salvage, more gas clouds, better quality BPCs, etc) higher in deeper W-Space?

• Is it the intention that the mechanics of W-Space will be balanced so that (given time) T3CH will be reasonably abundant, even if it's not ever likely to be on the scale of T2?

Originally by: keepiru

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Killing sleepers must provide more isk/hr than killing normal NPCs, including bounty, salvage and modules. If income goes below people will stop doing it until its worth the extra hassle again.

On top of this, the stuff that must be acquired from W-Space exploration has to be worth pretty hefty piles of isk, or people will not be fitting those midslot modules.

Mining fullerene gases must worth more isk/hr than mining ABCs. These NPCs are Uber, bringing an alt in a domi to tank the belt ain't gonna cut it. If at any point they don't risk/reward and supply:demand comes into play again.

Now, take all of that, add in markup for the reaction/component makers, markup for the reverse engineers, markup for the assemblers.

All the above determines the floor for T3 prices. Demand will drive them higher.

For example, if it takes 1 hour of hulk-mining fullerenes, and one hour of sleeper ratting to get enough to build a T3 cruiser, you're looking at a floor of about 100m isk.

As I said, I welcome our new 500-million-isk cruiser overlords.

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Originally by: Arte

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This kinda leads on to my second question...

• Is it the intention that the mechanics of W-Space will be balanced so that (given time) T3CH will be reasonably abundant, even if it's not ever likely to be on the scale of T2?

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Originally by: keepiru

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Killing sleepers must provide more isk/hr than killing normal NPCs, including bounty, salvage and modules. If income goes below people will stop doing it until its worth the extra hassle again.

On top of this, the stuff that must be acquired from W-Space exploration has to be worth pretty hefty piles of isk, or people will not be fitting those midslot modules.

Mining fullerene gases must worth more isk/hr than mining ABCs. These NPCs are Uber, bringing an alt in a domi to tank the belt ain't gonna cut it. If at any point they don't risk/reward and supply:demand comes into play again.

Now, take all of that, add in markup for the reaction/component makers, markup for the reverse engineers, markup for the assemblers.

All the above determines the floor for T3 prices. Demand will drive them higher.

For example, if it takes 1 hour of hulk-mining fullerenes, and one hour of sleeper ratting to get enough to build a T3 cruiser, you're looking at a floor of about 100m isk.

As I said, I welcome our new 500-million-isk cruiser overlords.

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Originally by: Pattern Clarc

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Originally by: CCP Dropbear

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Thought this may help people wrap their heads around the process.

Diagram of Tech III Production

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It's missing ore minerals.

And are there going to be new w-space specific ore's??

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Originally by: CCP Dropbear

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Thought this may help people wrap their heads around the process.

Diagram of Tech III Production

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Originally by: Akita T

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So, question... if you want feedback and all that jazz for fine-tuning, can we assume you already have an INTENDED end-user pricetag, at least the rough order of magnitude ?
And if yes, how large is it ?

I mean, sure, we could complain that they will cost too much or too little, and everybody will cry either way, but if we at least know how much they're SUPPOSED to cost, we can give better suggestions for fixes/tweaks.

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Originally by: Aydjile

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can you please explain why they called "strategic" and not "tactical"?

here wiki -

Military tactics (Greek: Taktikē, the art of organizing an army) are the techniques for using weapons or military units in combination for engaging and defeating an enemy in battle. Changes in philosophy and technology over time have been reflected in changes to military tactics.


and here too -

strategy is a plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal.

Strategy is profoundly different from tactics. In military terms, tactics is concerned with the conduct of an engagement while strategy is concerned with how different engagements are linked. In other words, how a battle is fought is a matter of tactics: whether it should be fought at all is a matter of strategy.

Strategy is relevant to many areas of life, from getting the right date for the school disco to running a business. For example, the goal of a company may be to increase profits: the strategy chosen might be to undertake an advertising campaign; invest in a new computer system; or adjust pricing.

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Originally by: Cailais

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Originally by: Red 7

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While it all depends on drop rates and yield - based on the current salvage system for rigs & using their drop rate as a baseline - then T3 cruisers should be around the 150-250m ISK mark (assuming maturity - gold rush is likely to make the prices much higher initially).

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That looks like a very low estimate. The resource harvesting for T3 requires traditional harvesting methods (minerals) but also more exotic resources for which there is not a current profusion of player gatherers - e.g gas cloud harvesting. Also almost all the resources are in a high risk environment (WH Space).

As a guide to T3 production we should look towards the Combat Booster market, where resources and producers are limited. I think we can expect initial gold rush prices to be at or around the 1 - 2bil mark, falling over a few months until stabilising at around the 500mil mark (slightly more for high demand subsystems).

C.

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Originally by: Red 7

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Initial observations on SISI show that the number of exploration sites per system has increased in K-Space (probably due to the new probe system being more granular).

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Originally by: CCP Dropbear

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That's actually due to us putting a whole lot more in. I'll be going into a bit more detail on that in an upcoming blog.

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Originally by: UMEE

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if ure another fotm re-roller, then dont pvp. you'll fail.

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Originally by: adriaans

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nice stuff! however it doesn't mention what sec status the new pos mods will be limited to... would be nice to know :)

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Originally by: Kel Zon

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All this work for a really expensive cruiser that makes you lose SP you have trained in it when you go pop? They had better be pretty fing uber otherwise no one will go through the trouble. Remember all this is dependent on someone actually wanting to fly them rather than a HAC.

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Originally by: Simo98

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Question. (i hope it hasn't already been asked)

the ancient relics or whatever, when you reverse engineer them what happens? do they dissappear? have a set amount on 'uses'?

if they last forever, will they end up like T2 BPOs and all held by only a select few. cause that would kinda suck

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Originally by: Ralitge boyter

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It sounded to good to be true a new Tech level where the smaller corps could actually take part in. In the end the following is needed for any group to stand a chance in this market.
A gang/fleet to harverst NPC's
A gang/fleet to hack/dig exploration sites
A group of dedicated scanner
A group of invention and researcher
A freighter load of ISK and at least 5 or six traders
A set of at least two or three POS's for reactions
One or more Caldari research outposts

Groups that can field this? Yes the 0.0 alliances with a stable income and enough people to send tens of them into the w-space systems (best once spawn in their back yard of course) to collect the stuff needed. Trader alts in high sec corps will do the rest.
In short CCP has made yet another tool to make the rich far richer, to give them even better abilities to hold on to their claimed space as they have access to the T3 gear first and will be able to set the price they want for these items as no one else is able to get to their sites with enough reliable man power to make a business of it.

CCP this design is just wrong it is going to do to T3 what the (rigged) BPO lotery did to T2 it is going to make very few people hold a deciding share in the market ending it up in a strangle hold where prices are dictated by what these people feel like instead of actual costs.

Now Of course CCP has been "smartÖ" and given specific areas of 0.0 access to specific resources because that will cause more people to go to war over them... in short an alliance formarly known as BoB has the best resources the rest of the major alliances have pretty good stuff and the part where wars are actually fought by new alliances have pretty much nothing, causing no movement what so ever, leaving the lower ranked alliances to have to fight and commit major amounts of resources which is unsustainable due to lack of income in those areas that can still be claimed.
Thus CCP will do nothing more then enforce the current political landscape freeze the current pin the current power houses down even further in their respective areas and make it even harder for new groups to try and move in to 0.0.

CCP are you guys and girls sure you want people to move to 0.0 it seems like you are doing everything in your power to just keep the status quo. Because if you really wanted to have people move into 0.0 you would have made resources shift, not just a few wormholes but also moon materials, complexes and high end ores, you would have made it possible for small alliances to generate enough income in 0.0 to be able to sustain them selfs in the fighting against the moajor power houses with the unlimited income and the nearly untoutchable industrial infrastructure...

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• The subsystem assembly array and experimental laboratory can be anchored anywhere


• The polymer reactor can only be anchored in 0.3 or below systems (as is the case with other reactors)


• The hybrid components can be manufactured at existing component assembly lines which includes stations in empire space

Originally by: Umbriele

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1) Make the new pos structures anchorable in high sec (0.5-0.7) or no ones will do that in low sec, only big allies will do T3 (epic fail like boosters)
2) Make the size of the gas, salvage, datacore, etc.. very small, and the polymers small too (1 mc like alchemy stuff). I cant imagine anyone entering a worhole, find the stuff, and have to go back to eve to unload just 1 unit because its too big, maybe 50 jumps away....

Those or T3 will be used as much as boosters.

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Originally by: CCP Chronotis

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[yellow]Questions on guide prices of Strategic Cruisers

However you can probably gauge yourselves how much you would be willing to pay for one and I personally would expect that price range to sit between 100-300 million for many people after the initial shiny phase is past.

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Originally by: Umbriele

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1) Make the new pos structures anchorable in high sec (0.5-0.7) or no ones will do that in low sec, only big allies will do T3 (epic fail like boosters)
2) Make the size of the gas, salvage, datacore, etc.. very small, and the polymers small too (1 mc like alchemy stuff). I cant imagine anyone entering a worhole, find the stuff, and have to go back to eve to unload just 1 unit because its too big, maybe 50 jumps away....

Those or T3 will be used as much as boosters.

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Originally by: Ralitge boyter

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In short CCP has made yet another tool to make the rich far richer,

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Originally by: Signature

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Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.

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Originally by: Dracira Dracc

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Originally by: CCP Chronotis

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[yellow]Questions on guide prices of Strategic Cruisers

However you can probably gauge yourselves how much you would be willing to pay for one and I personally would expect that price range to sit between 100-300 million for many people after the initial shiny phase is past.

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When i take a look at the production chain - i predict a price much higher then 300 Million per ship.

i bet 1 ISK for that :-)

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Originally by: Signature

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Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.

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Originally by: CCP Chronotis

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However you can probably gauge yourselves how much you would be willing to pay for one and I personally would expect that price range to sit between 100-300 million for many people after the initial shiny phase is past.

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Originally by: Deviana Sevidon

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I hope it will be possible to compress materials from WH space with the Industrial Core of a Rorqual.

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Originally by: Masque Blanc

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To get together the correct components and the correct six reverse engineered bpcs (just to build the first ship) is going to be difficult. To get together extra subsystems to really use tech3 as designed is going to be very difficult.

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Originally by: Washell Olivaw

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Originally by: Ralitge boyter

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In short CCP has made yet another tool to make the rich far richer,

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Money makes money? OMG! Stop the presses!

It's impossible to create a system where people with established logistics, manpower and investment won't have an edge.

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Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab

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Originally by: Masque Blanc

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To get together the correct components and the correct six reverse engineered bpcs (just to build the first ship) is going to be difficult. To get together extra subsystems to really use tech3 as designed is going to be very difficult.

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Sounds really nice. So they are pushing manufacturing towards requiring a chain of supply as complex as EvE can handle.

T2 might have been hard back when there were fewer players, and same for T1. In a few years T3 will be in the same position as T2.

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Originally by: Ralitge boyter

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I highly doubt that as the resources needed for T1 and T2 are a constant and can be given enough investment run to match the demand without having to rely on a uncertain supply of any material manufacturers can setup a profitable production chain.

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Originally by: vvizard NOR

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Originally by: Aydjile

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can you please explain why they called "strategic" and not "tactical"?

here wiki -

Military tactics (Greek: Taktikē, the art of organizing an army) are the techniques for using weapons or military units in combination for engaging and defeating an enemy in battle. Changes in philosophy and technology over time have been reflected in changes to military tactics.


and here too -

strategy is a plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal.

Strategy is profoundly different from tactics. In military terms, tactics is concerned with the conduct of an engagement while strategy is concerned with how different engagements are linked. In other words, how a battle is fought is a matter of tactics: whether it should be fought at all is a matter of strategy.

Strategy is relevant to many areas of life, from getting the right date for the school disco to running a business. For example, the goal of a company may be to increase profits: the strategy chosen might be to undertake an advertising campaign; invest in a new computer system; or adjust pricing.

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From my experience (some years in active military duty) I tend to sum up the whole strategic/tactical discussion like this, when trying to explain military strategy/tactics to other people in the military:

"Strategic decisions are long-term decisions, taken by generals or politicians, and might change the outcome of a war. Tactical decisions are short-term decisions taken by various brigade, battalion, company, platoon and squad leaders (or by the private rifleman himself), and might change weather you and the guys next to you survive this battle or not.

Deciding what toys (hardware) you send into war is a strategic decision. Deciding how you actually use them during battle is a tactical decision for commanders lower on the food chain.

I would simply say that T3 cruisers can be said to have a "strategic" effect if one alliance is able to produce them on a much larger scale than their opponents, and in turn give that alliance a weapon the enemy cant find an effective counter against.

On the other hand, they could have a "tactical effect" by being warped into the middle of a battle, and securing a victory for one of the sides, because the opposing force wasn't prepared to fight against them.

Which one it will be, only time will tell I guess.

My perception of strategy vs. tactical decisions is a "dumbed down" version I've just found easy for people to grasp. Military experts are calling this a "grunt explanation".

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Originally by: Laszlo Ozawa

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Originally by: Pattern Clarc

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Are the ore minerals and gas required to produce polymeres unique to w-space?

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how does a person without rudimentary reading comprehension skills get elected to the csm?

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Originally by: iudex

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Ok this sounds nice, but will there be Tech 3 battleship hulls as well ? I don't like small ships, my ego doesn't fit in a ship smaller than a battlecruiser.
Any chance there will be some big Tech 3 stuff in future ?

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Originally by: CCP Dropbear

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Originally by: Pattern Clarc

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Originally by: CCP Dropbear

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Thought this may help people wrap their heads around the process.

Diagram of Tech III Production

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It's missing ore minerals.

And are there going to be new w-space specific ore's??

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It does actually mention the involvement of minerals during the polymer reaction. I didn't chart it in as there are numerous sources for them and acquiring minerals is a process people are already familiar with.

As for the other question. I haven't seen any new w-space specific ores in the design and I'm very confident that the only new "harvestable materials" are the fullerites to be found in gas clouds. I don't work in design, however, so I can't state that definitively. I'll leave it to Chronotis et al to field those kinds of questions, I just wanted to drop in with that diagram.

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Originally by: Carniflex

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I have same question ringing in my ears, as cruiser size hulls are perhaps reasonable for level 3 missions if pimped hard enough, but level 4 would kinda ask at least battlecruiser sized. That is unless I can do something stupiduber in cruiser size like 8 missile hislots with rof and damage bonus and enough mids for tank (say - 4 slots to 5 slots) and at least 3 lows for BCU's.

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Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab

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Originally by: Carniflex

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I have same question ringing in my ears, as cruiser size hulls are perhaps reasonable for level 3 missions if pimped hard enough, but level 4 would kinda ask at least battlecruiser sized. That is unless I can do something stupiduber in cruiser size like 8 missile hislots with rof and damage bonus and enough mids for tank (say - 4 slots to 5 slots) and at least 3 lows for BCU's.

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Tell that to people who solo lvl 4 missions and the really difficult escalation sites using nothing but a cruiser-hulled cerb.

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Originally by: Luna Nilaya

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I wonder how expensive these things are going to be.
Even HAC prices are getting out of hand once again, so I doubt I'll be flying these any time soon.

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Originally by: Zex Maxwell

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Edited by: Zex Maxwell on 17/02/2009 13:48:09
the salvage/hacking sites, what level of difficulty are the rats at? do we fly in a BC or BS to tank them?

Can they be completed by one person or a group of 3?

(I never found a Wormhole yet, in Sisi, so I don't know what the sites are like.)

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Originally by: Sidrat Flush

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I THINK I understand why it's done the way you did, but how many characters have actually SEEN a gas cloud? I MAY have the skill to use a gas harvester, but to my knowledge I haven't seen one.

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Originally by: Red 7

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The biggest issue with the T3 production so far, from what I can see, is that you can make all the reactions, reverse engineering, parts and subsystems in W-Space - but you can't actually construct a ship. You'll have to haul the parts back into K-Space and use a station to complete a ship. Painful for those that would like to get lost exploring in W-Space.

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Originally by: CCP Chronotis

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In the future beyond Apocrypha 1.0, we are looking at the gas cloud harvesting mechanic, possibly repurposing the procurer to have a gas cloud harvesting bonus and the current bonus of the gas cloud harvesting skill.

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Originally by: CCP Chronotis

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Thanks for the feedback so far!
<snipage>
In the future beyond Apocrypha 1.0, we are looking at the gas cloud harvesting mechanic, possibly repurposing the procurer to have a gas cloud harvesting bonus and the current bonus of the gas cloud harvesting skill.

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Originally by: Knor Yvester

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With new BPO's /BPC's coming into the game I hope that NPC stations get a whole lot more lines for PE,ME,Copying,Manufacturing, and Invention. There are tons of players who cannot do any of the Industrial stuff since the majority of the lines stay full. Most also have 30 day plus wait times

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