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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
Chesty McJubblies
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.03.28 20:12:00 -
[2011]
Originally by: Greagore I have to agree with scorned here. It is only a game and the only one who seems butt-hurt (as you so eloquently put it) is you Othran.
But I actually enjoy it when person's like your self get up on their high horse and act all high and mighty and think that your $15 a month is worth more then the $15,000/mth ccp banned. Get over yourself and just enjoy the game. If people want to bot who cares that's their prerogative, if ccp catches them and bans them, again their prerogative. Nothing to do with you other than a chance for you to troll and get some attention. So get a life and start making your report bot petitions. Maybe you can make a macro that will auto fill them in for you. Wouldn't that be sweet irony?
Either way I doubt life in eve will change much either way for the vast majority of players.
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Elyssa MacLeod
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Posted - 2011.03.28 20:19:00 -
[2012]
Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 28/03/2011 20:20:51
Originally by: Furb Killer Well supers are fundamentally broken, but still then, some growth is indeed expected, but less than a year ago it was still a big hit when Atlas lost a titan in H-W, now powerblocks are losing 10+ titans in a single fight (and still supers are build way faster than destroyed), and sure i guess it has a little impact on morale, but not more than that. Do the math how it is next year if CCP doesnt do anything about it.
1 to 10 to 100? lol
It used to be devistating to a corp to lose a a titan, a major corp, and it was unheard of for them to even HAVE 15 lol
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Kogh Ayon
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Posted - 2011.03.28 20:22:00 -
[2013]
Seems you ppl fail.The fanfest shows CCP's policy on bots clearly.
Time to get some hulks
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dexington
Caldari Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.28 20:23:00 -
[2014]
Originally by: Furb Killer Well supers are fundamentally broken, but still then, some growth is indeed expected, but less than a year ago it was still a big hit when Atlas lost a titan in H-W, now powerblocks are losing 10+ titans in a single fight (and still supers are build way faster than destroyed), and sure i guess it has a little impact on morale, but not more than that. Do the math how it is next year if CCP doesnt do anything about it.
This really has nothing to do with bots, as the eve universe population grows this is bound to happen. The bots may have some impact on ship construction, but the ideology of blob warfare will exist without bots.
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Greagore
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Posted - 2011.03.28 20:34:00 -
[2015]
i just don't understand why people are so against botters who probably make a few billion a month, but they had no real issues with the moon mining that was making some corps trillions for no effort at all.
is it the fact that they are logged in making the isk? That is the only difference I can see.
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dexington
Caldari Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.28 20:39:00 -
[2016]
Originally by: Greagore i just don't understand why people are so against botters who probably make a few billion a month, but they had no real issues with the moon mining that was making some corps trillions for no effort at all.
is it the fact that they are logged in making the isk? That is the only difference I can see.
If CCP would allow bots, everyone would do it. The economy would be gone, and all ships might as well be free.
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Greagore
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Posted - 2011.03.28 20:42:00 -
[2017]
For everyone that had the free moon mining everything is free. Even the game, pretty much for as many accounts as they like and for as long as they like.
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Elyssa MacLeod
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Posted - 2011.03.28 20:49:00 -
[2018]
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Furb Killer Well supers are fundamentally broken, but still then, some growth is indeed expected, but less than a year ago it was still a big hit when Atlas lost a titan in H-W, now powerblocks are losing 10+ titans in a single fight (and still supers are build way faster than destroyed), and sure i guess it has a little impact on morale, but not more than that. Do the math how it is next year if CCP doesnt do anything about it.
This really has nothing to do with bots, as the eve universe population grows this is bound to happen. The bots may have some impact on ship construction, but the ideology of blob warfare will exist without bots.
This would be true if the population increased about TEN TIMES in that time.
It didnt btw
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dexington
Caldari Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.28 21:12:00 -
[2019]
Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod
This would be true if the population increased about TEN TIMES in that time.
That's not really true, you said yourself more titans are being build then destroyed. It does not take more players, it's just takes time. Bots, more players, etc is just a positive catalyst, making it happen faster.
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Elyssa MacLeod
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Posted - 2011.03.28 21:27:00 -
[2020]
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod
This would be true if the population increased about TEN TIMES in that time.
That's not really true, you said yourself more titans are being build then destroyed. It does not take more players, it's just takes time. Bots, more players, etc is just a positive catalyst, making it happen faster.
So it happening faster is a good thing in your eyes? Is your main in a huge corp with 15 titans by chance?
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dexington
Caldari Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.28 21:41:00 -
[2021]
Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod
This would be true if the population increased about TEN TIMES in that time.
That's not really true, you said yourself more titans are being build then destroyed. It does not take more players, it's just takes time. Bots, more players, etc is just a positive catalyst, making it happen faster.
So it happening faster is a good thing in your eyes? Is your main in a huge corp with 15 titans by chance?
I really don't care that much about titans, positive catalysts increase the speed of the process and negative catalysts, or inhibitors, decrease the speed of the process.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.03.28 22:00:00 -
[2022]
i conclude. eve is dying
now the gameplay is numb. The player base is numerous, yet suffers from irritation.
if CCP continues with loose botting policy the population will abandon the game over the course of 1-2 years.
Eve is not dead. Eve is dying.
Help it recover and become happy again. Banhammer the chinese isk farmers and their farming tools.
Work on the tools, not the farmers.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.03.28 22:05:00 -
[2023]
Originally by: Opertone i conclude. eve is dying
now the gameplay is numb. The player base is numerous, yet suffers from irritation.
if CCP continues with loose botting policy the population will abandon the game over the course of 1-2 years.
Eve is not dead. Eve is dying.
Help it recover and become happy again. Banhammer the chinese isk farmers and their farming tools.
Work on the tools, not the farmers.
Yeah, Im actually concerned to continue mining, afraid Im gonna get banned because I do things repetitively. How, exactly, do you NOT mine with repetitive behaviors???
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dexington
Caldari Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.28 22:08:00 -
[2024]
Originally by: Vincent Athena Can a pilot be sold from a temp banned account? I sure hope the answer is "No", because otherwise botters can just move pilots from banned accounts to new ones and carry on. But if they got to wait 30 days, then depending on how good your detection is, they may get 3 or 5 days in, then have to wait for 30 days before they can carry on. That actually might be sufficient deterrence.....
You can't use the CCP system on the forums to trade characters that have been banned:
The 'For Sale/Auction' post must be made by the character being offered. This is being added to prevent scams for characters that have been misrepresented, banned, non-existent, etc.
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Brannoncyll
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Posted - 2011.03.28 22:20:00 -
[2025]
Originally by: Slate Shoa
Are the players who report bots going to be notified if their reports successfully catch a botter? Is there going to be a Wall-of-Shame (or equivalent)?
If some privacy agreement is preventing CCP from disclosing the result of a bot report, then that privacy agreement needs to be changed. CCP needs to be visible in its handling of botters and continually prove to the playerbase that botters are being delt with; lack of visibility will lead to additional (and justified) anti-botter rage.
I will wait for the Devblog to be published to see if my concerns are addressed there.
If the wall of shame is not possible, instead it would be great to see some sort of counter on the EVE website with frequently updated statistics on how many botters have been banned and perhaps some watered down graphs from the behavioural analysis program showing a consistent trend in the number of hits.
@CCP Sreegs - I enjoyed watching the video of your presentation and I am glad to see that the botting issue is now being taken very seriously. I approve of your hard-line attitude regarding the enforcement of the EULA/ToS. I look forward to feedback similar to that mentioned above or in the quoted post as to the results of your effort.
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Jack Gilligan
Cerberus Heavy Logistics
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Posted - 2011.03.28 22:53:00 -
[2026]
So what was the big announcement at fanfest?
I didn't see any in the news.
Have we been lied to again?
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Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.28 22:55:00 -
[2027]
Originally by: Jack Gilligan So what was the big announcement at fanfest?
I didn't see any in the news.
Have we been lied to again?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4gZm-85JOs
------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :) |
Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.03.29 00:02:00 -
[2028]
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 29/03/2011 00:03:08
Originally by: Jack Gilligan So what was the big announcement at fanfest?
I didn't see any in the news.
Have we been lied to again?
Theyre Working On It
oh yeah, and "Slow Burn"
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.03.29 01:16:00 -
[2029]
Originally by: Grey Stormshadow
Originally by: Jack Gilligan So what was the big announcement at fanfest?
I didn't see any in the news.
Have we been lied to again?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4gZm-85JOs
And now that the early video has broke out, I'll make my official response.
First, and foremost, this is a win for players and a lose for botters. It is a win for players for the following reasons:
1. CCP has assembled and assigned a security team whose sole purpose is to enforce the EULA and TOS. 2. We have been asking for CCP to do something significant about bots for years and they finally have us item #1. 3. We have been asking for CCP to give us an easy to use reporting tool for years, and they are. 4. We have been asking for CCP to just listen to us on this, and they are. 5. We will finally begin to have a more playable, level field where there will actually be resources in some cases where there aren't now due to bots. 6. The value of our ISK will increase, as will the value of ore and minerals (already a touch on the rise due to panic and fear and smart people capitalizing on that panic and fear) and everything else in the game, returning us to a pre-everybody bots state. 7. We have a definitive (arguably too shallow for some of us) three strikes policy for those breaking the EULA (this, btw folks, is a deterrent - it will deter more people from botting, but not all and is not designed to deter all - no policy (even 1 strike you're out) will deter everyone)
It is a lose for botters in too many ways to list. As a developer of 20 years myself, I can say with great certainty that these guys know what they're doing. And they did give the botters fair warning. If what they say they are implementing is true, and results can be as easily measured by the players as they can by CCP, then we'll see things vastly improved by this time next year. I'm not going to lie to you folks - and neither did CCP - it will be a slow burn... but you know what the great thing about slow burns are? They're very, very efficient.
Having said that, now I will say this...
Sreegs - you did a great job with your preso bud. Not too much info (as I anticipated) but just enough that I'm quite pleased with your solutions. Looking forward to getting my token when that's out (damn... I knew I should have planned that OOP camp for April!) and looking forward to watching the bots drop off. Kudos to CCP and to you for finally bringing together the talent required to make that hammer hit harder, more precisely and, most importantly, more often than not. Oh, and thanks for the nod... Looking forward to having that report bot tool - and I can guess a number of local botters will be unhappy when I have that tool :) Again - great job and keep up the great work. I finally feel like something is actually being done about this issue and look forward with anticipation to the improved eden we'll all soon enjoy.
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Paul Mustaka Hekard
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Posted - 2011.03.29 03:14:00 -
[2030]
Watched the video. I now believe that you have a sound approach to approaching this issue. Although success does matter, I no longer question the "slow burn" approach.
Kudos Sreegs and Claudio. I very much look forward to seeing the death of bots in this game and the re-establishment of a free and fair economy. Might be rough going for a while, but it will reach equilibrium.
Thank you for hearing us and having the fortitude (and sense of self-preservation) to do something about it. EvE is a bit unique with respect to botting; because it is a sandbox, the damage is large. Thanks for taking it seriously. Will gladly participate in feeding you data to support your efforts.
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Nikita Keriget
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Posted - 2011.03.29 06:45:00 -
[2031]
Sreegs, I noticed in the presentation you mentioned the focus on programs that mess with the Eve client - does that include bots that use OCR to read the screen and emit mouse/keyboard input, or only ones that hack the process directly? (Please be both!)
Oh, and keep up the good work. I've been wanting two-factor authentication and a crackdown on bots for a while now. You're like my fairy godmother.
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Jessica Autumn
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Posted - 2011.03.29 06:56:00 -
[2032]
CCP your gonna need to get on this Bots in Dronelands are Farming Drones at the rate of 23,000 a day, 23 fricken thousand ships A DAY!!!.....And all that Isk is going to the Russian Wallets to replace 13 titans in 2 days or 500 abaddon fleet.
Lets get on this quick!....
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Widemouth Deepthroat
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Posted - 2011.03.29 07:36:00 -
[2033]
Originally by: Nikita Keriget Sreegs, I noticed in the presentation you mentioned the focus on programs that mess with the Eve client - does that include bots that use OCR to read the screen and emit mouse/keyboard input, or only ones that hack the process directly? (Please be both!)
Oh, and keep up the good work. I've been wanting two-factor authentication and a crackdown on bots for a while now. You're like my fairy godmother.
Definitely both since the recent bans focused on an OCR bot.
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Florestan Bronstein
Amarr Taishi Combine
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Posted - 2011.03.29 08:00:00 -
[2034]
Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat
Originally by: Nikita Keriget Sreegs, I noticed in the presentation you mentioned the focus on programs that mess with the Eve client - does that include bots that use OCR to read the screen and emit mouse/keyboard input, or only ones that hack the process directly? (Please be both!)
Oh, and keep up the good work. I've been wanting two-factor authentication and a crackdown on bots for a while now. You're like my fairy godmother.
Definitely both since the recent bans focused on an OCR bot.
2 different issues.
Speculation is that the recent bans were mainly based on online times - most of the people telling they got banned had bots running on an humanly impossible schedule for extended amounts of time (though not necessarily during the last few days).
Hardening the client is a more long-term project that should shield the client against several methods that bots use (hooking directly into the EVE client, Python injections, maybe reading/manipulating memory contents directly) - as these methods are also likely to be used to discover & make use of exploits this is a good idea, anyways. From what I understood the focus won't be on detection (CCP already permabans on first-offense if they find out you have tinkered with the client - clever botters make of course sure CCP never receives exception logs, stacktraces, ...) but on prevention. Like any client-side technique this hardening will ultimately be overcome (e.g. botter doesn't inject directly into the EVE client but into some windows library the EVE client makes use of and works his way from there, manipulates memory from outside the VM, ...) but for some time CCP will certainly be able to get some impressive successes this way.
There is no way to detect OCR/keyboard&mouse macros reliably client-side as they are really easy to run from outside a VM (guess you could forbid EVE to run inside a VM [as most virtualization products make no effort at all to hide themselves from the guest system] and basically install a rootkit on the customer's computer to prevent any unwanted software from running & monitor Win32 API calls typically used by this type of bot - but that would be hugely intrusive and not very practical). "Hardening" the client against these OCR bots is afaik not really possible if you want the protection to be unobtrusive (no captchas, silly minigames, ...). So for these types of bots the focus will be more on server-side detection than client-side prevention.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.03.29 09:14:00 -
[2035]
Originally by: Jack Gilligan So what was the big announcement at fanfest?
I didn't see any in the news.
Have we been lied to again?
The tl;dr is that the first two times you are caught you only get short temp bans, and that most likely ISK earned by botting will not be taken away
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Malcanis
Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous Scum Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.29 09:46:00 -
[2036]
Originally by: Jessica Autumn Edited by: Jessica Autumn on 29/03/2011 06:57:14 CCP your gonna need to get on this Bots in Dronelands are Farming Drones at the rate of 23,000 a day, 23 fricken thousand ships A DAY!!!.....And all that Isk is going to the Russian Wallets to replace 13 titans in 2 days or 500 abaddon fleet in a day.
Lets get on this quick plz....
Agreed. Although dont forget that NC-held teritory is also infested with ratting bots; Venal, Tenal, Deklein, Fade and Branch are particularly notorious in this respect. And all that ISK is going in to NC wallets to replace motherships and titans too!
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.03.29 10:00:00 -
[2037]
Also Stain apparently is filled with bots. And maybe not directly involved in replacing supercaps, but the number of icemining bots and courier mission bots is also ridiculous. As long as it is obvious where bots are it should also be trivial to ban them.
In the end the location doesnt matter, they all need to be permabanned + all ISK gained removed (yes that includes ISK gone to corp wallets via taxes, it shouldnt have been there in the first place).
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dexington
Caldari Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.29 10:15:00 -
[2038]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Jack Gilligan So what was the big announcement at fanfest?
I didn't see any in the news.
Have we been lied to again?
The tl;dr is that the first two times you are caught you only get short temp bans, and that most likely ISK earned by botting will not be taken away
Do you have any info that would suggest that it's likely that the isk is not removed?, seems to me it's very likely that the isk is removed, that happend to the players in the iskbank customer database.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.03.29 10:55:00 -
[2039]
RMT ISK is always removed, botting is something else. Anyway maybe I am kinda negative, but at least they havent decided yet what they going to do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4gZm-85JOs&t=49m00s
So while Sreegs want it removed, for now that wont happen since they dont have a policy regarding it yet.
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.03.29 11:29:00 -
[2040]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Jack Gilligan So what was the big announcement at fanfest?
I didn't see any in the news.
Have we been lied to again?
The tl;dr is that the first two times you are caught you only get short temp bans, and that most likely ISK earned by botting will not be taken away
If that's all you got out of the video Furb then I'm changing my contact list to *not* include you anymore :P lol
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