| Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Jita Johnny
   |
Posted - 2009.03.12 08:30:00 -
[1]
Realistic PvP-like encounters? How many PvPers instantly switch targets from the battleships shooting them to blow up the light drones doing a fraction of the DPS?
Even blasting away at the sole sleeper remaining in a site for minutes on end isn't enough to keep it from lighting up my drones the instant they pop out of the bay.
Am I missing something crucial here? Is there a sneaky way to make drones anything other than a waste of isk or temporary chaff against sleepers? Because if not, I hope that the drone issue will be on the top of the list for balance issues to be addressed in Apocrypha 1.1 because as it stands other than buying you a few seconds while they get blown up, there's no point to them. It's as if CCP gave Sleepers super-defender missiles than negated 90% of all missile DPS. Caldari would be up in arms, but Gallente are getting the shaft as one of their weapon systems is negated.
|
King Rothgar
Death of Virtue
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 08:47:00 -
[2]
They seem to switch targets randomly, which brings them to drones often as they outnumber ships. My gang used drones decently enough but we did lose a few. Sentries are the best survivors as you can scoop them the instant anyone starts shooting them. That is assuming they survive the first volley, but they seemed to for my gang mates. I was in a wolf and only got aggro a few times. Thankfully that little thing has unholy resistances and is very quick, never got into any real danger with it. These were lower level spawns though that had 2 BS's max. Also killed a drake and chased a domi around for about 45 minutes, but that's another issue. Pity our HIC pilot was offline .
|
Jita Johnny
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 09:12:00 -
[3]
You can rescoop sentries, but if you're going up against BS spawns they'll usually have taken armor damage by the time you do, meaning they get worn down even if you give their shields time to recharge in your drone bay(and that's gimping your DPS) they'll eventually get destroyed.
I know CCP's on this whole 'Fighting Sleepers is like PvP!' kick, but if Sleepers can't manage what even the dumbest player does when confronted with a ship he can't break the tank on after 10 minutes(warp out) then is it really such a horrible thing to change the AI not to screw over Gallente(and drone users more generally?) |
vostok
Minmatar
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 09:20:00 -
[4]
Use your drones as a shield to reduce the DPS you take rofl
Can imagine a carrier with 10,000 light drones being used to mitigate dps in one of these rooms. Certainly seems more effective than trying to survive with spider tanks.
- Adaptation is not an excuse for lack of ballance! -
|
UniOne
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 10:20:00 -
[5]
2 Days (nights) of wormholes and i entered 2 times, everytime when i arrived at the station in my home system, i dont really know if i made a profit in sleepers loot and salvage, because when i look to my drone bay, about almost every drone that is there is crippled and some missing....
I usually drive drone boats, but i'm going to apply the gun method because i dont really see profit here when u loose 2 800k drones and 2 lighs ....
Another thing is to train the drone related skills, my toon has drone navig V and some others to IV... its helps a little bit but usually they arrive to drone bay with almost no armor left.
Solo'ing the sleepers in gallente ships its a bt hard.... forget about your lvl 4 mish Domi...
-----------------------------------------
Semper Fi |
Gefex
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 10:23:00 -
[6]
Problem is, if they changed the AI so sleepers didn't shoot drones; spider tanking Dominix gangs would instantly become the de-facto method of running these sites. No other battleship has the ability to kill all ship sizes reliably and have lots of utility high slots.
I think its going to take some pretty dedicated gangs to run these sites on any kind of regular basis. Its not conducive to casual play really, having to find the wormhole, then find the site, then get a large gang with the right ships together to run it.
|
Naomi Wynn
Amarr
Wynn Industries
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 10:28:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Naomi Wynn on 12/03/2009 10:33:14
OP, if I was going up against a drone boat, you bet one of the first things I'd do is pop their drones if I can. Don't like it, then carry more drones, micromanage them better, or don't use a drone-dependent ship. Or just retrain Amarr Victor :P
Seriously tho, my personal experience today follows: Solo'd two pockets in my Abby. Brought in 5 Warrior IIs and 5 Hammerhead IIs. Came out with 4 of each, some damaged. To be honest, they have changed PvE to be more fun (something wholly lacking in EVE tbh), as I was constantly micromanaging my drones, flight direction, and module activations (Guns\AB\2xLAR\CapBooster).
Nerfing fun PvE in EVE is asinine.
|
Wet Ferret
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 10:31:00 -
[8]
Remote armor reps? Lots of them?
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Kase Harkonnen
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 11:05:00 -
[9]
I must admit that I lost more in Hob IIs than I made in loot, assuming I get 10x the npc buy order prices. But it was the most fun I've had in my myrmidon for a while :)
The sleepers do seem to destroy drones v quickly, even with micro managing them individually, keeping in scoop range and all.
Basicly I was closing to point blank, releasing drones, recalling individual ones as they were targeted as fast as possible. I used small guns for aggro, and other highs for utility modules. After looting about 16 small/medium wrecks I had lost too many drones to continue, and had to leave. My passive omni damage shield tank held very well, I just ran out of dps.
|
Naomi Wynn
Amarr
Wynn Industries
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 11:09:00 -
[10]
Please tell me you're salvaging.... I got 3 things from salvaging going for 10mil each in jita atm... not to mention the other 30 mil in salvage. And I only killed 13 total ships in two separate pockets.
|
Tauranon
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 11:57:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Tauranon on 12/03/2009 11:57:36
 Originally by: Jita Johnny
Realistic PvP-like encounters? How many PvPers instantly switch targets from the battleships shooting them to blow up the light drones doing a fraction of the DPS?
Even blasting away at the sole sleeper remaining in a site for minutes on end isn't enough to keep it from lighting up my drones the instant they pop out of the bay.
Am I missing something crucial here? Is there a sneaky way to make drones anything other than a waste of isk or temporary chaff against sleepers? Because if not, I hope that the drone issue will be on the top of the list for balance issues to be addressed in Apocrypha 1.1 because as it stands other than buying you a few seconds while they get blown up, there's no point to them. It's as if CCP gave Sleepers super-defender missiles than negated 90% of all missile DPS. Caldari would be up in arms, but Gallente are getting the shaft as one of their weapon systems is negated.
its good and bad.
1 - the sleepers seem to lock both you and your drones, which is a little pvp like and different to regular NPCs activity. You can probably choose to cycle your drones before they take damage sometimes too to clear locks.
2 - drone boats ultimate dps is less affected by the gear I want to take into wormholes (probe launcher / salvager / cloak all in highslots). Each of those is coming at a smaller proportion of my dps than most ships with other weapon system types. In truth I've been also taking a remote rep, which means I can repair my anti-frigate weaponry, again at moderate further cost to overall dps. Someone taking 4 slots out of a mostly hi-slot damage based ship is going to also similarly weakened ALL the time (except for the obvious marauders), and if they don't bring a remote rep, then they have to think hard about how to retain their anti-frigate capability.
3 - its possible in the effort to manage speed tanking they've over done the drone slaying capability a bit.
4 - you can fight at relatively close range if you want to limit the retrieval time.
Balance might not be perfect, but the idea that drones will be popped easily is a good one. Its no point giving them a drone popping capability that doesn't work.
|
Spiffing1
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 15:33:00 -
[12]
Having been stuck in W-Space for about 5 hours last night in an arbitrator following my entry wormhole collapsing I have to say didn't see the kind of insta drone popping that you speak of...
The sleepers would happily target me or my drones but with careful management I returned (finally) to normal space without having lost a single one, I did have a lot of dented ones however.
I found that by using only small and medium drones the sleepers seemed to have trouble doing enough damage to pop one before I could get it back into my drone bay. I would suggest avoiding using heavy and sentry drones as their slow (or lack of) speed will probably get them killed.
Congratulations CCP I had a lot of fun fighting your new pets last night and the systems look fantastic. My only slight frustraton was trying to find a way out which took a lot of doing. I am sure however that once I get the hang of it that won't be quite so bad either.
|
Spiffing1
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 15:39:00 -
[13]
Having been stuck in W-Space for about 5 hours last night in an arbitrator following my entry wormhole collapsing I have to say didn't see the kind of insta drone popping that you speak of...
The sleepers would happily target me or my drones but with careful management I returned (finally) to normal space without having lost a single one, I did have a lot of dented ones however.
I found that by using only small and medium drones the sleepers seemed to have trouble doing enough damage to pop one before I could get it back into my drone bay. I would suggest avoiding using heavy and sentry drones as their slow (or lack of) speed will probably get them killed.
Congratulations CCP I had a lot of fun fighting your new pets last night and the systems look fantastic. My only slight frustraton was trying to find a way out which took a lot of doing. I am sure however that once I get the hang of it that won't be quite so bad either.
|
Liadan Khanum
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 15:48:00 -
[14]
I can think of 2
1) Logistics - mostly while not in combat (if the sleepers target reppers)
2) Emergency only T2 lights, when scrambled and ship loss looks likely.
I may want to experiment with EW types, to determine if they work and how aggressively thay are targeted.
|
Baihuigau
Gallente
Deus Imperiosus Acies
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 16:23:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Liadan Khanum
I can think of 2
1) Logistics - mostly while not in combat (if the sleepers target reppers)
2) Emergency only T2 lights, when scrambled and ship loss looks likely.
I may want to experiment with EW types, to determine if they work and how aggressively thay are targeted.
Ew drones are agressively targeted they last seconds once sleepers notice them, iv been doing good with target painting drones though most of the times they forget their there. Ecm is the worst its like hitting a beehive with a stick they go nuts.
|
Arch Miner
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 16:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jita Johnny
It's as if CCP gave Sleepers super-defender missiles than negated 90% of all missile DPS. Caldari would be up in arms, but Gallente are getting the shaft as one of their weapon systems is negated.
They already nerfed the missiles to the point where they dont even have to have defender missiles to be virtually immune to their damage!
Honestly I do agree with you though, they need to fix that. I would hate to see yet another race become so terribly ineffective. One race is enough ccp!
|
Durindana
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 17:44:00 -
[17]
Quote:
by using only small and medium drones the sleepers seemed to have trouble doing enough damage
this. not sure about their missiles, whether they have precision-like effects, but sleepers' larger turrets don't have great tracking; maintaining decent transversal even in an Eagle is for me enough to negate most of the BS' turret dmg.
I think their tracking is a compromise between allowing mixed-weapon setups to succeed without crippling drone losses, while not wtfoverpowering e.g. domi and ishtar.
Whomever already pointed out that scanner, salvager and cloak all take up highslots is dead on; plus, re: pvp-like pve, who doesn't fight a dedicated drone boat by going after its drones?
|
King Hopy
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 18:40:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gefex
Problem is, if they changed the AI so sleepers didn't shoot drones; spider tanking Dominix gangs would instantly become the de-facto method of running these sites. No other battleship has the ability to kill all ship sizes reliably and have lots of utility high slots.
I think its going to take some pretty dedicated gangs to run these sites on any kind of regular basis. Its not conducive to casual play really, having to find the wormhole, then find the site, then get a large gang with the right ships together to run it.
6 ships are enough for all the sites we have tried so far (yes, hard ones). 3 logistics and 3 bs. Ofcourse you need to setup them correctly.
|
el caido
School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 19:55:00 -
[19]
The system is fine, imo. I went out solo in an poorly-fit, armor-tanking Myr loaded with HH2s. I fully-expected to die horribly. So far, I haven't lost a single drone. When a drone draws aggro, I pull it in and launch a fresh one ... and continue this cycle. It is working wonders for me and they are helping my tank, ultimately. The only thing I might suggest for the drone users is a nav comp or two so you can quickly recover any drones in danger.
Next outing, I will try a sentry Ishtar and see how it goes.
|
Tierius Fro
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 20:05:00 -
[20]
Seems to me that players complaining about losing drones means that it is working as designed. I sometimes think they select the target that is easier to pop. Reducing their enemy's numbers. |
Calvin Sorenson
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 20:21:00 -
[21]
The best way to survive sleeper encounters _could_ possibly be a full set of t2 sentries and a remote rep.
If you don't want to remote rep, then cycle drones, but stay on your toes . . . just as you would during solo/small gang PvP.
I solo'd three waves and salvaged while my sentries took the most dmg. However, it was a low sec WH, not 0.0.
Just make sure you keep your drones fresh and have a huge buffer tank.
|
Abriana Overlord
Evolution
KenZoku
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 20:23:00 -
[22]
I just think CCP looked at hydra here "pop your drones, they will then target them"
I wonder if the sleepers come in yelling "coming in hot" :D
|
Glarion Garnier
The Scope
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 06:05:00 -
[23]
My experience with drones is that tech 2 lights dont get killed that fast if you are using them against a solo sleeper BS: they will eventually hit them. But not instantly. Cruisers hit the tech 2 lights instantly. Sleepers and their tech 3.5 ships 
_________________________________
-be vary of the men behind the curtain-
|
DonHel
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 07:26:00 -
[24]
I agree that the drone bashing is a little harsh... i went into a wormhole site that had only 6 cruisers, 6 frigs, and 2 sentries... I was in faction fitted domi with 60k effective hitpoints dual LAR II's.. all 6 of the frigs scrambled/webbed me on contact.. so i dropped lights.. not even 10 seconds later all 5 were dead, dropped more.. insta dead, dropped the hammers, then the infiltrators, then the sentries.. sentries wouldnt hit the frigs very well.. soon they were dead to.. so i just sat there till i ran out of cap boosters and died :(
|
Crawler
Gallente
Northern Star Brigade
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 07:46:00 -
[25]
i havent had any of my drones attacked in WH space.
it might have something to do with that i was using Hammerhead II to kill firgates.
or perhaps they thought my marauder was so great a threat that the drones could wait.
i have only been attacking perimiter sites so far so only low resistance 2-3 frigates 1-2 cruisers and 1 battleship at a time
_____________________________________________
yawnnnnn |
Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 09:30:00 -
[26]
I really can't see a happy medium for this.
Either the new AI dumbly focuses on the player and ignores drones almost completely and therefore acts just like the current AI does, leaving drone boats to just turn up, deploy drones, and make a sandwich - or they present a suitable challenge to drone boats as they do currently.
The problem as I see it is that on non-drone boats it's the ship itself that is "the weapon", so the Sleepers shoot that. On non-drone boats because of the lack of bonuses drones are relatively inconsequential as compared to the main bonused damage the ship itself is doing.
But on drone boats, the ship is generally just a meat shield with the drones themselves being "the weapon". How do you propose the NPCs deal with that if they can't shoot the drones themselves?
|
Camuran
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 11:07:00 -
[27]
Maybe I haven't been in the heavier sleeper sites, but I took on 3 cruisers and 2 frigs last night in a Brutix, and my t1 hobs took out the frigs fine. The cruisers would sometimes switch to the drones, but they held their own mostly. I had to pull them back to keep them from being completely destroyed a few times, but with lights that isn't a big problem.
Yes they took some armor damage, but as long as you keep an eye on them, which is exactly the same in pvp, you can use them.
They took out a cruiser on their own as well from time to time. I had a great time at it too :).
|
Zaerlorth Maelkor
The Maverick Navy
PuPPet MasTers
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 11:21:00 -
[28]
We had a 7-man gang going to a wormhole yesterday 6 in BS (Armas, Megas, Hyperion)and one in command ship. They didn't shoot any of our medium drones...
Perhaps if you don't rely on drones as your primary dps they won't pay them too much attention.
==================================================
I should really get a sig. |
Murasaki Ryujin
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 15:38:00 -
[29]
Hmm to test the 'sleepers shoot the damage' theory. Go in a ship with both notable ship and drone based firepower - Domi comes to mind. On test one start shooting with guns, then deploy some light or med drones. On test two, get aggro then deploy the same drones without shooting with guns. See what happens. Repeat while changing drone types to sentries or heavies, and experiment with different number of guns firing.
|
Erika Bronz
Gallente
The Wyld Hunt
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 17:02:00 -
[30]
How fast do sentrys die? What if you have your sentrys locked and repair them? If you were to embark with a Dominix RR fleet, would this build work?
[Dominix, Wormhole - Sentry RR]
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Damage Control II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Civilian Light Electron Blaster
Large Remote Hull Repair System I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Scan Probe Launcher I
Anti-Thermic Pump I
Anti-Kinetic Pump I
Remote Repair Augmentor I
Bouncer II x5
Garde II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
It will permarun the LRARs, hull rep is for withdrawal to fully repair.
Just asking. Haven't been there yet myself.
|
Murasaki Ryujin
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 17:09:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Murasaki Ryujin on 13/03/2009 17:09:12
The concept certianly works in an ishtar in level 4's. I don't think it would work solo, but as part of a fleet where some other damage dealing ships are mixing it up with the sleepers in the 20-60 k range, a sentry domi at 90k should be able to lend some decent firepower support. The question is would the sleepers 'decide' that it was worth a mad rush charge on the Domi or its drones. All the cruisers and fgs I've seen so far have > 1k/s mwd like speed.
|
kera3
|
Posted - 2009.03.14 14:30:00 -
[32]
Im using a domi in w space with alot of success. so long as you micro manage your drones properly its no porblem.
|
Imiarr Timshae
Caldari
Funny Men In Funny Hats
|
Posted - 2009.03.14 16:28:00 -
[33]
God damn you people **** me off.
|
Nisstyree
Chimera Raiders
|
Posted - 2009.03.16 06:09:00 -
[34]
We have been living in a wormhole of dangerous level for 3 days now and have cleared out all the plexes of any relevance. Our primary ships are domis usually 4-5 plus 1-2 abaddons, we had absolutely no problems with drones being killed. Yes sometimes the sleepers attack drones but only when certain circumstances occur such as drones being top on the treath list or when the sleepers only had few ships left.
Sentries do an excellent job and have very high survivability while ECM drones will get very high on the treath list and thus be killed. We have observed and noticed various behaviour patterns of the sleeper AI and at this point the only unpredictable part of the sleepers is what ship-type last to be killed actually triggers the next wave.
I have to say that CCP did a fine job with these sleepers and has incouraged us to learn quickly, but once you understand how to take them on these chaps aren't so nasty after all. The only Wormhole we didn't attempt to do was the deadly one simply because it is rather obvious that for that capital ships are a necessity.
Although we had no losses of any relevance, I suggest you engage the sleepers with a group of organized players because the learning curve to take these guys on is extremely steep 
|
Snow Banshee
Amarr
|
Posted - 2009.03.16 09:42:00 -
[35]
Went 2 times in wspace since now and faced 2 spawns in a rigged myrmidon with 4x 250mm ( antimater) and drones, and things are not that bad.
First off: i was able to tank anything below BS.
Secondly sleepers attack medium drones but tend to ignore light drones. At least since u fire also with guns.
My setup:
4x 250mm II, probe launcher, salvager
5x cap rec II
2x MAR II, 1x explo II, 1x therm II, 1x kin II, eanm2
drones:
mix of hammerheads and hobgoblins (t1)
rigs:
1x ccc
2x aux nano pump
This setup perma tank with both reps and was able to tank 6 sleeper cruisers. To kill them i shot with rails and then send hobgoblins ( medium drones are targeted immediatly). Usually a cruiser drone is 3/4 dead before they try to kill drones. rescoop and resend .. sleeped dead, then i go salvage/loot since i kill the next sleeper.
that way i can kill the forst 2 spawns... but have to warp when appead the BS .. there no hope to tank it in a myrm.. so i just go to the next anomaly site ^_^
The only thing you should do is: WATCH YOUR DRONES.
|
Bierschwale McWylie
|
Posted - 2009.03.18 00:42:00 -
[36]
at a perimeter anomoly I was able to do the first 2 waves and lost one t2 lite drone in an ishkur, but it was a mad grab/deploy dash to keep the drones alive. But made the mistake of launching my light armor repair drone early in second wave. Everyone shot it instantly, didn't last one volly several missiles went by that had been aimed at it.
wait that may be it, a BS with drone bay full of lar drones sent out one at a time. the ultimate anti-everything tank!!!
How much does it cost to make light armor repair 1 drones?
Just a thought......
|
Ripcha Headov
Art of War
|
Posted - 2009.03.18 01:51:00 -
[37]
Drones are far from worthless in WH space. So far the main ship i have been using infact is the Ishtar. It can solo any anomlies in the easy space (2 non webbing bs's), 2 together can JUST about do the medium anomalies aslong as u work together and kill the webby frigs ASAP to keep up transversal.
As for the hard sites. Only done 1 sofar and that was in a Domi gang. T2 sentries are the only weapon i've used against them sofar.. and hobgoblins.
You need to keep a very close eye on them because when they do get shot they die fast. So spares are useful incase your not fast enough.
Light drones kill the frigs fast enough i have found. But the frigs also kill light drones remarkably fast (only lost 1 hobgoblin and 1 garde so far though).
The obvious advantage of drones is u have free high slots for scanner, salvager, rr + whatever else u may want. You have to be careful, but if you play your cards right i think drones are the best weapon u can use against them if your man power is limited and u can't have dedicated scanning ships and logistics with u.
Hope this goes some way to dispelling the myth that drones are useless against sleepers.
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |