| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Norden
   |
Posted - 2009.03.12 12:33:00 -
[1]
Probing has not been improved. What an improvement that is since I just pull around widgets till I do not see anything else. Where is the fun in that!?
I just sit in front of stupid boxes and widgets. Whole scanning lost any feeling for space and the different systems. No matter what system I am in, it doesnt make a difference. Just moving widgets.
Not to talk about stupid skill and bonus decisions, where almost any skill has +scanstrength now. All diversity for the different probes (ladar, radar, etc.) all gone into 1 type of probe. Really, I cant find any improvement in kind of fun or gameplay.
...
|
|
CCP Casqade
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 13:08:00 -
[2]
So, what is your suggestion for improvement?
|
|
Bladen Kerst
Caldari
Perkone
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 13:27:00 -
[3]
balancing =/= even everything
introduce some diversity
|
Draconus Lofwyr
Gallente
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 13:29:00 -
[4]
I agree, the pos movement mechanics are very difficult to move about. Selecting the probe arrows when they get in close and moving about the map can be difficult.
Some suggestions,
1. when a probe is selected in the scanning window, add the ability to move the probe around with the arrow keys and 2 keys for up and down to make fine tuning of locations quicker and easier.
2. when multiple probes are in position, the ability to group them for movement. so you can move all 4 based off direction and distance. same arrow movements from above, but they move as a group, with an additional set that moves them closer or farther apart as a factor of their interlocal point (they all move the same percentage distance to center point when closing on each other).
3. counter probing tactics, new form of combat probe that can hunt scan probes using similar hunting tactics with better accuracy, but only against probes. once a 100% result is reached, they all warp to the found probe and destroy the offending probe. (this will increase probe usage and restore some value to the probe bpo's as people have to rebuild lost probes).
DL
Sig picture exceeds the file size limit. ~Weatherman
The NEW M.Corp Data Hub - Check it out! |
Sleepkevert
Amarr
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 13:38:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Draconus Lofwyr
2. when multiple probes are in position, the ability to group them for movement. so you can move all 4 based off direction and distance. same arrow movements from above, but they move as a group, with an additional set that moves them closer or farther apart as a factor of their interlocal point (they all move the same percentage distance to center point when closing on each other).
You can already move probes in groups (or set the scan range in groups) when you hold shift.
As for the "scaling". It isn't ingame yet, though I'd definitely love to see it. It would make probing a lot easier since you only need to get your probes into position once, then scale the distance in the group to scan at shorter ranges.
_
Add your own line! |
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 14:26:00 -
[6]
Originally by: CCP Casqade
So, what is your suggestion for improvement?
get rud of the stupid widget, it looks ugly.
why do you need to be able to move the probes in X-Z and Y-Z planes? 95-99% of the eve systems everything is on the same mostly horizontal disc, it is very rare to have something deviating from this.
Why can't the widget be a Z axis and then a X-Y plane for moving the probes or GOD FORBID copy the HW system of X-Y movement and then a modifier key for Z movement. You're already using a modifier key for other functionality...
-- stuff -- |
JanSVK
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 14:35:00 -
[7]
pls allow filtering of already found signatures. It is a pain as in most w-space you got 10+ signatures in a radius of 4 AU and it gets only more annoying the more signatures there are and as you work your way throw them making it a HUGE pain finding that last of those signatures whne 90+% are unwanted results.
Also I repteatedly found ghost signatures. Ghost signature is a signature tha is probable, and when you finally get 100% and warp to it there is nothing there. Not even a beacon on the map and it does not dissapear.
|
Sri Nova
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 14:39:00 -
[8]
I think CCP has put forth a great effort to make scanning for exploration content better
and i believe they have pulled off a better system albeit for exploration.
as for pvp scanning and scanning down combat drones and such the system is not fully functional.
it has been mentioned several times through out several threads that scanning down small targets such as combat drones and small ships is near impossible.
i do not believe an overhaul is necassry as the current mechanics work rather well.
but we do need to be able to scan down those combat drones and also need to be able to lock down small flighty targets a bit quicker.
i would also love to be able to scan down wrecks.
in essence i believe a pilot in a covops ship with max skills should be able to scan down and warp to every object in a system if he she so desires.
im not sure how CCP would want to accomplish this but if its strength issues that prevent us from locking down drones then boost the covops scan strength a bit more .
or give us a probe selection that will allow us to scan for smaller targets like drones wrecks and cargo containers and heck even frozen corpses .
either way the other side of scanning is broken and needs a lil bit of looking into thanks :)
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 14:55:00 -
[9]
Originally by: CCP Casqade
So, what is your suggestion for improvement?
* scan probe "bubbles" are way too thick, way too opaque
A wireframe and nothing else would have been much better, or at least give us some form of opacity control for the displayed "bubbles".
Also, when they overlap, it's just horrible, you literally can't see anything at all anymore.
* the positioning system controls SUCK in a major way
IIRC, we've had some devs saying at one time they CAN'T emulate the Homeworld-like positioning system, but they never gave us any reason WHY that is - I mean, all you do is determine a triplet of numbers for X,Y,Z - WHY can't you do it that way ? There's absolutely no logical explanation for it.
And don't get me started on how the "cubes" don't scale all that well, how HUGE the "control widgets" look when zooming in a bit, and how next-to-impossible it is to get the strategic overlay to display properly so you actually realize WHERE in 3D space the probes actually are.
* the "filtering" system for found signatures is equally horrible
Have you seen how a w-space scan result looks like ? Or trying to scan for ships in a "busy" system ? Seriously ?!?
I won't even go there, trying to explain exactly what's wrong with that, isn't it bloody obvious ?
* everything comes back to THREE steps maximum:
Step 1 - pepper the system with probes at max range/min strength until you get a hit on a probe, no matter how weak
Step 2 - "guesstimate" which probe got the hit from the visual mess, move 3 more probes close to it, don't change range, get a POINT result anyway, even if strength is minimal
Step 3 - TOIL on the horrible interface moving at least 4 probes almost on top of the EXACT POINT you already see, reduce range to minimum, maybe move some more probes "in the general area" with slightly larger range, scan and get 100% accuracy in a single step
How good your "scanning" skills are is determined by how fast you can work the HORRIBLE 3D INTERFACE, and not much else.
Solution ? Don't display pixel-thin rings for 2 probes and pseudo-points for 3-4 probes, have ACTUAL VOLUMES, with the SIZE of the geometrical shape determined by the probe accuracy, and the shape of the volume determined by the intersections... and have that accuracy ALSO drop significantly with increased probe scanning range, so the exact spot of the signature CAN'T be found skipping just about all steps between 32 AU and 0.25 AU range on probes.
And that's just a rough draft of stuff you could have done.
You know, "suggestions".
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Vermis
Sacred Templars
Aggression.
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 15:18:00 -
[10]
I like the new probing system a lot more than the old one. I especially like that with a little knowledge and player skill you can probe stuff amazingly fast and you are actually doing something interactive instead of sitting there watching a progress bar for minutes at a time.
The only issue I've run into is the fact that you sometimes have to fight the camera like your playing a bad console game. Moving the camera around for spatial awareness and positioning of probes is fine, but having to move the camera because the current view won't let you interact with the UI like you want .... a tad annoying.
The current selection mechanic is too greedy, if you click in space by damn it will try and click on something regardless of your intent. I think it would be nice if there were modifier keys (alt, ctrl, shift, etc) that would filter what is selectable when you click. So if you are holding the ctrl down when you click, it will select only x-axis probe faces for dragging, etc. |
Vermis
Sacred Templars
Aggression.
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 15:25:00 -
[11]
Originally by: JanSVK
Also I repteatedly found ghost signatures. Ghost signature is a signature tha is probable, and when you finally get 100% and warp to it there is nothing there. Not even a beacon on the map and it does not dissapear.
I ran into this once last night myself. I noticed that if you re-analyze you will get the 100% hit again, but a different/closer distance (from you to the hit). I had to warp to a 100% hit 3 times with re-analyze before I actually got there, not sure if this is by design or a bug. (First warp was 3 AU, second one was like 300,000km and the third was 90,000km). |
Loki L'Odin
Gallente
Asshats and Alcoholics
Turbo.
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 15:29:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Loki L''Odin on 12/03/2009 15:32:29
Edited by: Loki L''Odin on 12/03/2009 15:29:17
The new scanning/probe method is spot on for exploration(havent tried scanning for ships and probably never will so I'm not going to talk about that)
The only real improvement I ask for is being able to pan the camera view...for example hold down right mouse button to zoom in or out, left mouse button to "pan" the camwera around the centre spot which your looking at...being able to go above/under/and left around/right around....i.e circle/3d...yes...that kinda got away from me :)
edit: sorry and to actually move where the camera is pointing...arror keys :)
edit again: sorry just woke up...the panning im on about is kinda like it is now...but a tad smoother..(yes i make up words...) but in all seriousness having arror keys moving the camera would make this alot easier
Maybe as some one mentioned make the bubbles a little more transparent...but other than that the actual mechanics of scanning explo sites down now is spot on and much more interesting than the old method.
|
Norden
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 15:31:00 -
[13]
The earlier probing forced you to know the planets, the moons, the gates positions in the systems you were in. The new one doesnt.
It is hard enough in Eve to feel where you are, to feel the physicalness. Everything is circles, brackets etc, but with old probing u had to get a feeling for each solar system. After a time scanning in a system, u knew how it looks. How the planets stand to each other.
That let me feel like I am learning to know a system. I had to deal with the environment in any system.
The new system just wants me to drop and pull probes. No matter near what planet the sig is, no matter if there are planets anyway. I dont have to have orientation. You could drop any sig 99x au away from a planet. The probe finds it without me doing anything except dropping and pulling a probe till Im close to the sig.
When Im close to the sig, ALL of the orientation is lost, only having cubes and widgets on my screen. Zoomed in to 100% no feeling of a solar system, no feeling of space. Just my bubbles, widgets and me. Thing is, I dont feel like dropping high tech probes and explore, I just drop boxes.
Im no developer, but maybe my point of view gives u some ideas. I find the basic attempt is fine. Using real maths behind scanning is jut great, maybe it just needs finetuning for handling, grafics, usability and probing people.
- Make the probes like probes. Why do we have those boxes?
- Let the widgets be smaller, more high tech or let them appear when we mouseover. Maybe let us click the probe, then set the point where the probe should go by mouse, then release (similar Homeworld movement - all fine grafical lines)
- No idea how exactly, but even if zoomed in, I¦d love to have a feeling of spaceship exploring, not boxdropping and wigdetpulling fullscreen. Maybe make the zoomed in View be more detailed or make the widgets and boxes transparent, less dominant.
-handling has already been mentioned, but I understand if the whole scanning thing is not 100% rdy yet.
-probing ships and players: this is(was) a very essential part of eve I think. Its freedom and out of the typical mmo-box. I did not test this yet, but from what i read, i can stop probing Safespot Ratters. That would be sad, cause its a very exciting thing for both sides, and makes the world and possibilities in Eve more a harsh place.
Will think more and add ideas.
Regards Norden
|
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 15:33:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Vermis
I ran into this once last night myself. I noticed that if you re-analyze you will get the 100% hit again, but a different/closer distance (from you to the hit). I had to warp to a 100% hit 3 times with re-analyze before I actually got there, not sure if this is by design or a bug. (First warp was 3 AU, second one was like 300,000km and the third was 90,000km).
Yep, this is deviation playing tricks on us.
What happens is that you get a 100% result which is actually the hit+deviation but one is still able to warp to it.
When one arrives it is to empty space but within deviation range of the probes. Run a second 0.25AU scan with yourself as centre and you should get the "correct" warp to (train the Pinpointing skill as well, well worth it)
My best one so far was a second warp of a whopping 500km, which means the first hit was dead-on but just off grid by a nose hair 
Other than this the new probing system is fast and engaging, ship probing has been slowed down some but nothing major if probing for the bigger ships.
|
Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Vanguard.
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 15:40:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Norden
Probing has not been improved. What an improvement that is since I just pull around widgets till I do not see anything else. Where is the fun in that!?
Playing computer games = pulling/pushing/pressing something. Define fun.
Originally by: Norden
I just sit in front of stupid boxes and widgets. Whole scanning lost any feeling for space and the different systems. No matter what system I am in, it doesnt make a difference. Just moving widgets.
Old exploration scan mechanics: after a system was bookmarked, its uniqueness also disappeared.
Originally by: Norden
Not to talk about stupid skill and bonus decisions, where almost any skill has +scanstrength now. All diversity for the different probes (ladar, radar, etc.) all gone into 1 type of probe. Really, I cant find any improvement in kind of fun or gameplay.
There are some valid points.
Maybe re-introducing old ladar/mag/radar/grav probes would be nice to get better hits while scanning
exceptional hard sites and ships...yes ships. I liked using old exploration probes to find ships/drones.
|
Haral Reimo
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 15:51:00 -
[16]
Originally by: CCP Casqade
So, what is your suggestion for improvement?
I have two main suggestions
1 - While the positioning interface is a big improvement on the first Sisi one, it's still pretty horrible. It's still too easy to grab the wrong surface (commonly grabbing the range on a different probe when I wanted a cube-side) or click on a planet/moon and that's near or behind the probe.
2 - Perhaps specific to me, but I've always had a problem with reading thin red text on a white background. I can see the red rings clearly when there's only two probes around and the background is dark but if I've got 4 or more probes out and get a red ring I can barely see it. Making the ring thicker than one pixel would make this a lot easier for me.
|
Karim alRashid
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 16:02:00 -
[17]
New exploration probing is a HUGE improvement in comparison to the previous one. After some training, now I consistently probe sites/wormholes in k-space within 5 minutes. Compared to spending up to two hours in the previous system.
As for probing in w-space, indeed, it's quite a mess of results. It's not impossible to probe though. I need maybe 15 minutes to probe a site down. Indeed, it may turn out it's not what I'm is looking for. But who said a trip to w-space should be like a trip to your local mall or Jita? I reckon the problem is with false expectations the people have rather than with game mechanics. If you can't or don't want to spend the time and effort to explore and exploit w-space, stay out, learn to play and stop whining.
If anything is wrong with probing, it's that character with no or low in-game skills and equipment is very competitive to a highly-skilled explorer.
Please, CCP, don't dumb it down further.
--
Pain is weakness leaving the body. |
Karim alRashid
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 16:11:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Akita T
How good your "scanning" skills are is determined by how fast you can work the HORRIBLE 3D INTERFACE, and not much else.
What a pile of bull****!
The scanning skills is mostly being able to relate already found sites with probe results, relate incomplete(sphere, circle, ghost) hits with each other and with the probes, which found them.
How good your "scanning" skills are is determined by how fast you THINK.
(In k-space it's very very easy, indeed)
--
Pain is weakness leaving the body. |
Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Vanguard.
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 16:45:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Karim alRashid
As for probing in w-space, indeed, it's quite a mess of results. It's not impossible to probe though. I need maybe 15 minutes to probe a site down. Indeed, it may turn out it's not what I'm is looking for. But who said a trip to w-space should be like a trip to your local mall or Jita? I reckon the problem is with false expectations the people have rather than with game mechanics.
Yes, my thoughts.
|
Draconus Lofwyr
Gallente
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 16:46:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Draconus Lofwyr on 12/03/2009 16:47:34
one other mechanic that is missing now is risk. If your in a home system with a pos, you can sit just outside the shields (inside wont let you launch) under the watch of the defenses and probe the entire system. also, you can probe down a pos at a moon without ever having to decloak and launch the probes at each range. some of the fun was wondering if you were about to be jumped by a fast locker while dropping probes.
as far as target groupings, there's a drop down currently for scan types but it is not populated, so im sure CCP will be adding to that as more patches come out. this could have been because they werent sure what people wanted in there.
DL
Sig picture exceeds the file size limit. ~Weatherman
The NEW M.Corp Data Hub - Check it out! |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 17:02:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Karim alRashid
Originally by: Akita T
How good your "scanning" skills are is determined by how fast you can work the HORRIBLE 3D INTERFACE, and not much else.
What a pile of bull****!
The scanning skills is mostly being able to relate already found sites with probe results, relate incomplete(sphere, circle, ghost) hits with each other and with the probes, which found them.
How good your "scanning" skills are is determined by how fast you THINK.
(In k-space it's very very easy, indeed)
Right, because "pull 3 more probes near the probe that found something" is really, REALLY challenging, mentally.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Major Stallion
The Dark Horses
W A S T E L A N D
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 17:31:00 -
[22]
isnt a user interface supposed to be as easy and fluid for the end user as possible? Why not make it so you can right click on a low strength result and select "group probes on this location" this way you dont have to futz about with moving the probes, only when they get there you position them the way you need to to further narrow down the result.
seems like an easy fix imo
|
Major Stallion
The Dark Horses
W A S T E L A N D
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 17:32:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Draconus Lofwyr
Edited by: Draconus Lofwyr on 12/03/2009 16:47:34
one other mechanic that is missing now is risk. If your in a home system with a pos, you can sit just outside the shields (inside wont let you launch) under the watch of the defenses and probe the entire system. also, you can probe down a pos at a moon without ever having to decloak and launch the probes at each range. some of the fun was wondering if you were about to be jumped by a fast locker while dropping probes.
as far as target groupings, there's a drop down currently for scan types but it is not populated, so im sure CCP will be adding to that as more patches come out. this could have been because they werent sure what people wanted in there.
DL
if you found yourself uncloaked whilst trying to probe in the old system, you were doing something wrong.
|
Marmios
Elite Aeronautic Developer Syndicate
Kraftwerk.
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 17:34:00 -
[24]
when do these BS threads like" i dont wanna get used to something new" end finally? you guys seriously need to adapt or die....
|
Karim alRashid
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 17:38:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Karim alRashid
Originally by: Akita T
How good your "scanning" skills are is determined by how fast you can work the HORRIBLE 3D INTERFACE, and not much else.
What a pile of bull****!
The scanning skills is mostly being able to relate already found sites with probe results, relate incomplete(sphere, circle, ghost) hits with each other and with the probes, which found them.
How good your "scanning" skills are is determined by how fast you THINK.
(In k-space it's very very easy, indeed)
Right, because "pull 3 more probes near the probe that found something" is really, REALLY challenging, mentally.
Pulling probes around is not. Finding stuff in w-space is.
Finding stuff in k-space is EASY. It was EASY before, only it was time consuming.
Now the complexity and time sink has moved to w-space.
Overall the situation has VASTLY improved from the point of view of EASE. Five minutes vs. an hour or more for existing content. Fifteen minutes per site for k-space content, only you have to probe more sites, hence an hour or two spent again.
Probing just got so much easier, that I'm considering proposals to CCP to make it harder.
--
Pain is weakness leaving the body. |
Major Stallion
The Dark Horses
W A S T E L A N D
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 17:38:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Marmios
when do these BS threads like" i dont wanna get used to something new" end finally? you guys seriously need to adapt or die....
i guess asking for a more user friendly interface is a reason to adapt or die...way to go
|
Karim alRashid
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 17:45:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Major Stallion
isnt a user interface supposed to be as easy and fluid for the end user as possible? Why not make it so you can right click on a low strength result and select "group probes on this location" this way you dont have to futz about with moving the probes, only when they get there you position them the way you need to to further narrow down the result.
seems like an easy fix imo
No. The whole probing consists of intelligently deciding where to put probes and with what range. Admittedly in k-space there's not that much to decide, but then we shouldn't have two different probing systems for k-space and w-space.
--
Pain is weakness leaving the body. |
Marmios
Elite Aeronautic Developer Syndicate
Kraftwerk.
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 17:48:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Major Stallion
Originally by: Marmios
when do these BS threads like" i dont wanna get used to something new" end finally? you guys seriously need to adapt or die....
i guess asking for a more user friendly interface is a reason to adapt or die...way to go
No its allright. I was referring to threads like "the old system was way better stuff"
|
Major Stallion
The Dark Horses
W A S T E L A N D
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 17:49:00 -
[29]
i didnt say "group probes around location and find my signature", im talking about EASE of use. Rather than having to pull all 8 of my probes across the map to the hit i wanna narrow down, i send them to the CENTER of that hit and reposition them accordingly. You're still repositioning them, but it cuts out that horrid act of actually getting them to the hit to begin with.
|
Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Out of Order
Tenth Legion
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 18:02:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Vermis
Originally by: JanSVK
Also I repteatedly found ghost signatures. Ghost signature is a signature tha is probable, and when you finally get 100% and warp to it there is nothing there. Not even a beacon on the map and it does not dissapear.
I ran into this once last night myself. I noticed that if you re-analyze you will get the 100% hit again, but a different/closer distance (from you to the hit). I had to warp to a 100% hit 3 times with re-analyze before I actually got there, not sure if this is by design or a bug. (First warp was 3 AU, second one was like 300,000km and the third was 90,000km).
Your probes weren't accurate enough. Make them smaller and the problem goes away.
Stop, hammer time. |
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |