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Thenoran Caldari Tranquility Industries	Posted - 2009.03.15 18:29:00 - [31] Exploration is more fun now, but it's too easy, way too easy. Granted, watching your scan probes count down from 113 seconds wasn't fun, but now that a site can generally be found in 10-15 minutes, suddenly everyone and their dog wants Exploration to turn into nothing but 1-scan-warp-to-free-isk sites. It's taken me 10+ hours to scan down Gravimetric sites in the past, you have nothing to complain about really. I do hope they will remove belts from the known systems and put them into Exploration so that macrominers have a harder time AND that the belts aren't stripped by half dead miners. People who are now whining about taking a little while to scan anything down don't have a clue, they should've seen the old system, now THAT required patience! Seriously...the possibility of finding Arkonor in a WH system connected to high-sec is well worth any time scanning to me. Also, CCP (in a dev blog some time ago) stated they want to get rid of the warp-to belts in the overview and I completely agree. ------------------------ Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
Aniel Zaar Gallente Light of Orion	Posted - 2009.03.15 18:34:00 - [32] I find the fact that people with basic probing skills won't be able to ever locate a core mining site very satisfying. Before, it was a matter of patience/bots, now the trained skills have some value besides adding the ability to roll the dice more often. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones.
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.03.15 19:14:00 - [33] I don't think they should be removed, but... there are FAR too many of them currently. Additionally, I think this goes back to complaints regarding the removal of the multifrequency probes. Its generally annoying spending 10 minutes scanning something in system, only to find its a hidden belt--which you have absolutely no ****ing use for. -K [url=http://killboard.tides-of-war.com/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=39767] [/url]
Narfas Deteis	Posted - 2009.03.15 19:51:00 - [34] Originally by: Aniel Zaar Originally by: Narfas Deteis Originally by: Aniel Zaar Exploration is much easier, faster, more fun. Exploration is much easier, faster, less fun. Since we agree on the first two parts, it must mean that while I find longer and harder scanning less fun, you enjoy it. Did you also not train any explorations skill before Apoc to make your scanning even longer and more enjoyable and fun? That's not the point. Before patch exploration required patience, knowledge, and, lets say... basic intelligence. It had it's rhythm. It wasn't for everyone. It was nice niche, mini-profession, different then making money (mining, producing, trading) and shooting things up (pve, pvp). There was a bit of mystery and it was third way to play. Now exploration is about grinding everything in the area faster then other 50k players. All mystery of exploration gone. That's why I feel that with current scanning mechanism EVE became more flat and less colourful game. Oh yes, and easier. And people are so happy that their game is now easier. They should try PacMan perhaps. Now this is exploration without challenge and mystery. It's about shooting things up faster then other "explorers". Exploration without exploration.
Y Berion Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.15 20:12:00 - [35] Well said, Narfas. Me, I went pretty far in exploration business before so now I am really trying hard to accept this new scanning system and go on with it (I am not sure I`ll be able to, though)
Phoenix Gold	Posted - 2009.03.15 20:12:00 - [36] The Exploration System is great - except for one huge change: FILTERS An explorer should be out to filter out the results he has already scanned down (i.e. all those grav belts that clutter out everything else). Once you have scanned them down and bookmarked, you shouldn't have to run across them again.
Y Berion Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.15 20:31:00 - [37] Originally by: Phoenix Gold The Exploration System is great - except for one huge change: FILTERS An explorer should be out to filter out the results he has already scanned down (i.e. all those grav belts that clutter out everything else). Once you have scanned them down and bookmarked, you shouldn't have to run across them again. What they need to do is to dramatically decrease signal strenght for all types of sites (except for wormholes). Only then, maybe, to look at your suggestion. Exploration is simplified way too much already, pls don`t ask for more.
EvenFlo	Posted - 2009.03.15 21:13:00 - [38] Grav sites are always a waste of time. Why are you complaining. ?
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.15 21:46:00 - [39] Quote: The Exploration System is great - except for one huge change: FILTERS An explorer should be out to filter out the results he has already scanned down (i.e. all those grav belts that clutter out everything else). Once you have scanned them down and bookmarked, you shouldn't have to run across them again. Erm, why? A little bit of common sense and knowledge of the scanning system and this is already in game. When bookmarked/warped to, it shows up on solar system map. If you see a sphere and it passes through the site you've already BMed, ignore it. If you see a circle which passes through the site, again, ignore it. If you see two points, one of which is on (or right next to, loldeviation), ignore it.
Aniel Zaar Gallente Light of Orion	Posted - 2009.03.15 21:58:00 - [40] Edited by: Aniel Zaar on 15/03/2009 21:59:32 Edited by: Aniel Zaar on 15/03/2009 21:58:56 Edited by: Aniel Zaar on 15/03/2009 21:58:39 Originally by: Narfas Deteis Now this is exploration without challenge and mystery. It's about shooting things up faster then other "explorers". Exploration without exploration. It required intelligence before? Are you kidding? Dropped as many probes as you can, make a few bms, and spam scan button for hours... Got to be really smart to do that. There was less competition before because it was tedious, repetitive, and boring thing to do. You are right - that wasn't for everyone. Scanning in 0.0 and hard explorations sites is still impossible right now without sufficient skills trained, gear, and experience. The only place you will find competition is in high sec and adjacent wormholes - there would be competition regardless of the scan mechanics changes. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones.

Kroolish	Posted - 2009.03.15 22:07:00 - [41] Ive Spent 3days stuck in a WH and the easy fix here would be to just add a filter, ive found dozens of Grav sites when all i was really looking for was a way out of this cursed space :) On a daily basis i was scanning 20-24 anomolys with bated breath and crossed fingers praying for a WH out of there and all i found was dozens of grav sites and a handfull of ladar sites. 72hrs later and i am still trying to find a way out that i can get 2 carriers through back into normal space. i dont care where it is to be honest even delve would be better than being Lost in Space for over 3days getting frustrated hitting grav site after grav site :) The Adventure continues.... Resources and Exotic dancers are in short supply... Krool...
brakespear Minmatar Minerva Co.	Posted - 2009.03.15 22:10:00 - [42] Edited by: brakespear on 15/03/2009 22:12:15 Originally by: Hallan Turrek They don't need to remove them, they need to give us a way to filter out specific site types from our scans. /signed Originally by: Kroolish Ive Spent 3days stuck in a WH and the easy fix here would be to just add a filter, ive found dozens of Grav sites when all i was really looking for was a way out of this cursed space :) On a daily basis i was scanning 20-24 anomolys with bated breath and crossed fingers praying for a WH out of there and all i found was dozens of grav sites and a handfull of ladar sites. 72hrs later and i am still trying to find a way out that i can get 2 carriers through back into normal space. i dont care where it is to be honest even delve would be better than being Lost in Space for over 3days getting frustrated hitting grav site after grav site :) The Adventure continues.... Resources and Exotic dancers are in short supply... Krool... and also this, at present :\ -------------------------------------------------- 'people will always be tempted to wipe their feet on anything with 'welcome' written on it.'
TheOnlyProphet Amarr Altus Provisio	Posted - 2009.03.15 22:12:00 - [43] Since an 'explorer' should never be arguing to have LESS to explore, no claim to remove ANY sites from w-space can be substantial. If you simply want less grav sites and more radar/magneto/ladar sites because the latter are more 'worthwhile' or worth more isk, then it should be fairly obvious why they are more rare. To that end, if you are only interested in grinding the best isk/hour, then why would you venture into the 'unknown'? Stick to the 'known' ways of grinding the best isk.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.15 22:18:00 - [44] Quote: Ive Spent 3days stuck in a WH and the easy fix here would be to just add a filter, ive found dozens of Grav sites when all i was really looking for was a way out of this cursed space :) What's the problem? You're supposed to get stuck in w-space if you come in unprepared.
Cade Morrigan Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.15 22:21:00 - [45] Originally by: Kroolish Ive Spent 3days stuck ... On a daily basis i was scanning 20-24 anomolys with bated breath and crossed fingers praying for a WH out of there and all i found was dozens of grav sites and a handfull of ladar sites. I read that most wormholes are near the orbit paths of outer planets in a system. Can anyone speak to that? If it's true it might help this man out :) On topic... i don't care how many grav sites I have to sift through to find my desired target, but +1 for a multispec probe of some sort to at least tell me if the type of site i want exists in system.
Cade Morrigan Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.15 22:23:00 - [46] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: Ive Spent 3days stuck in a WH and the easy fix here would be to just add a filter, ive found dozens of Grav sites when all i was really looking for was a way out of this cursed space :) What's the problem? You're supposed to get stuck in w-space if you come in unprepared. What's "unprepared" about probing for wormholes when he is... looking for wormholes? --
Aniel Zaar Gallente Light of Orion	Posted - 2009.03.15 22:24:00 - [47] Edited by: Aniel Zaar on 15/03/2009 22:24:34 Originally by: Cade Morrigan I read that most wormholes are near the orbit paths of outer planets in a system. Can anyone speak to that? If it's true it might help this man out :) This is not true. Majority of sites are in the center near the sun. Logically, it's more likely that a wormhole will be there as well. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.15 22:28:00 - [48] Quote: What's "unprepared" about probing for wormholes when he is... looking for wormholes? Probably going along in a totally unbonused scanship (probably with **** skills too) with no friends thinking he'll navigate w-space with ease?
Cuchulain Spartan	Posted - 2009.03.16 00:15:00 - [49] Originally by: Kroolish Ive Spent 3days stuck in a WH and the easy fix here would be to just add a filter, ive found dozens of Grav sites when all i was really looking for was a way out of this cursed space :) On a daily basis i was scanning 20-24 anomolys with bated breath and crossed fingers praying for a WH out of there and all i found was dozens of grav sites and a handfull of ladar sites. 72hrs later and i am still trying to find a way out that i can get 2 carriers through back into normal space. i dont care where it is to be honest even delve would be better than being Lost in Space for over 3days getting frustrated hitting grav site after grav site :) The Adventure continues.... Resources and Exotic dancers are in short supply... Krool... What he said. 3 days today and I had enough, 4 of us podded ourselves in the end. Lost some nice fitted ships (not carriers, I feel your pain Kroolish). We had 2 scanner ships using core probes and gave up after bookmarking countless sites. All I wanted was a hint towards the Sig being a Wormhole. First probe I dropped got 50+ hits, spent days sifting through the stuff. Its put me off extended stays in W-Space. Yes, scanning has been made easier and available to more people but its a needle in a haystack trying to find your way out of W-Space right now. +1 for Multis or something similiar and maybe nerf the new scanning system a little to compensate for bringing Mulis back. I'm not looking for an " I Win " button but something needs to be done.
Armakoir	Posted - 2009.03.16 04:21:00 - [50] Laziness seems to be the argument of those pleading for filters and the change to grav sites. I wonder if Lewis and Clark complained to God at night about not finding gold around every hilltop? That's what you guys sound like. It's called EXPLORATION for a reason.

Varden Gage Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.16 04:24:00 - [51] There's a fine line between 'challenging' and 'tedious.'
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.16 05:38:00 - [52] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 16/03/2009 05:39:41 So can we get some testimony from someone who was stuck in w-space for days who could be assed to bring along a dedicated prober -and- have other ships with supporting core probe launchers? I've led corp ops all around w-space. Admittedly when you get into deeper w-space it gets harder, but it still only took 30 mins to an hour to find our way out. If 50+ sites is true (And experience tell me that it's bull****. You're probably including anomalies, ships, or multiple hits on the same target (happens when 3 probes overlap). If, however, there legitimately are 50 COMPLETELY SEPARATE COSMIC SIGNATURES then I could see a -slight- nerf. Maybe.
Sillas Cov Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit	Posted - 2009.03.16 05:41:00 - [53] Okay While I agree with the findings of 80% Grav site out in W space, and the attendant frustration in not landing a Mag or Radar site..... is a frackin head shaker! There is a way to get a filtered scan result: Set scan resolution to 1au after you use larger res scan to find the hits as red dots. Use a cluster of 5 probes in a box formation on a single plane, with one prob in middle and the probes overlapping by 30 to 40% volumes. (or hell your own probe arrangement) Now then you can move said formation in the existing position/formation by simply holding down the shift key, THEN selecting on one of the boxes of the probe icons, in the formation, and drag into new area. (you can change all scan resolutions by holding shift then hovering mouse over the edge of one of the prob spheres and then drag in and out). The tight 2 or 1 au or less scan resolution will increase the results to include a Grav or Ladar, or God forbid, a Radar site in the actual results window descriptions. It will be a named result and not just a dot, as it is much of the time at higher and weaker resoltions. In other words you use increased scan resolution to filter out unwanted grave sites without having to actual scan them down fully @ .25 AU and warping to said rocks rumbling in space... SO Scan res acts as the filter. Further Ive noticed that WHoles within WHoles, scan out as unknowns even at tight scan resolutions used in above strategies, ie 1 AU. There is a big clue there for finding WHs... You can experiment with this... place a single scan probe over your entry WH point. Then see how the results show as you increase the scan resolution... for the known WH You will see that the WH will not show fully until you nail it with multiple probes but only show 'Unknown' right up until you really nail it with a tight scan and good probe layout. BTW has ANYONE ACTUALLY FOUND A RADAR, OR MAG SITE IN W SPACE YET?? I spent 3 hours sifting to find only gas, and rock and sleeper rats and a WH into Galanete High sec space and some plastic food containers that had faded arches on the lid...just floating around... but no T3 invention treats... Onward. Sillas
Cyndal Chicas Locas	Posted - 2009.03.16 08:45:00 - [54] Originally by: Aniel Zaar Edited by: Aniel Zaar on 14/03/2009 22:52:51 Originally by: Infernal W-space is uncharted space, why would there be beacons to asteroid belts? Well, for some reason CCP decided to put asteroid belts in, although they are all empty... Beacons already exist for those. Umm actually no - lots of the belts have higher end ores, but are named varying degrees of Frontier Deposits (common, rare - whatever) and are not empty at all. And again, no, there are no beacons to them, nor do or will they show up on overview, but the roids will - and do. Bookmarking is your friend. Only been in a few WHs so far, but have a nice load of T3 "stuff" from Perimeter Ambush sites(fairly easily solo-able in a nighthawk btw), and had corpies (nooblets) mining hedbergite and hemorphite happily through one entered from .8, and the exit came out 12 jumps away (also in .8) most of the day. For 3 of them, it was their first trip to 0.0, and obviously into WH space, and they were HYPED. I think it's cool that newer players now have (with a little help) access to 0.0 and veld-less mining close to home and free from blobbing gate camping hoardes bent on keeping it from them. It doesn't last long enough for them to get rich or upset the markets, but it sure adds interest for them in an otherwise overwhelming learning curve for most people. Personally, I think they did a great job without making it TOO easy - the mutiple hits are a balance method, or it would be too easy. It can get a little tedious, but it's also a lot more fun than anything added in recent memory, and fun for more people - not just the leets. Lets not forget that it is, after all, a GAME - not an occupation. (No offense to our Soviet/Brazillian friends) That said, DAMN - ya think the Sirius hit hard enough? 250-530(wrecking) damage on a 87+% resist ship? WTFPWN! I want those guns. Your mileage may vary, of course. He said I never listen to him ... (or something like that) [gold]Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixe
Reven Cordelle Caldari Lemuria Prospecting	Posted - 2009.03.16 09:32:00 - [55] Admittedly my first ever W-Space expedition was nothing but an hour of finding grav site after grav site without a miner in the fleet. It would have been great if we actually wanted asteroids. Turns out the wormhole I found didn't even have any sleepers in it anyway, so it was a bit of a dry run. In the end I found a handful of grav sites, one ladar - and Deimos running around solo. Not entirely sure what the Deimos was hoping to achieve. I think the unfortunate part is that a lot of people are a victim of hype - they go into W-Space expecting definate sleeper encounters and end up with nothing but a boring bit of space with nothing but asteroids and gas in it. It was at this point I realised that Wormhole Exploration is not a quick endeavour, and takes hours of probing and sitting around waiting for something to happen. This is especially boring for fleet mates with crap patience, who just end up logging after the first hour of sitting there doing sweet FA.
Vladimir Putin	Posted - 2009.03.16 09:38:00 - [56] Wormholes are great as they are! almos nuff said :) People with low probing skills shouldnt be able to find the "best" sites either, whats the point in training them otherwise? To scan 5 seconds faster?? Throw the wabbit a carrot and he will eat it With the days , years and tears spent on getting perfect probingskills it would be unfair for those longtime paying customers if any new char could do exact same as them and earn same amount as them, wouldnt you think?
Gaius BaItar	Posted - 2009.03.16 11:39:00 - [57] Edited by: Gaius BaItar on 16/03/2009 11:40:46 Edited by: Gaius BaItar on 16/03/2009 11:40:11 Originally by: Sillas Cov BTW has ANYONE ACTUALLY FOUND A RADAR, OR MAG SITE IN W SPACE YET?? I found a mag site last night in a wh from high sec (frontier something). Killed 2 spawns of frigs and cruisers, unfortunately all 3 cans were empty . This is how I do to find cosmic sigs in my cov ops: Step 1: I drop 8 deep space probes. I use 8 or 16 au range and spread them all around, mostly close to planets (and I filter for cosmic sigs). If I find an unknown, i go for it first, but I usually scan and BM everything. Step 2: I move all my probes in one region of space and lower range until I get a red dot. Step 3: I switch to 8 core probes and lower range even more down to 0.25 au, when I usually get 100%. I warp and immediately cancel warp. Then I warp cloaked at 100 km and bookmark the exact position (making a note about opposition there for future reference û number of frigs and cruisers). Then go back to step 1 and find another sig, until itÆs an unknown (eventually wh). The most important thing is to make sure not to include current BM of already found sigs in range of your probes (so you can always find new sigs).
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.16 12:33:00 - [58] Quote: Turns out the wormhole I found didn't even have any sleepers in it anyway, so it was a bit of a dry run. In the end I found a handful of grav sites, one ladar - and Deimos running around solo. Cosmic anomalies. Scan for them.
Synnyr	Posted - 2009.03.16 12:53:00 - [59] I preferred the old system. Not only that, I really miss the weeks of training and 200+ million isk I put into the old system that is totally gone. Nonetheless, I find the new system annoying. I suppose I still don't get how to manipulate my view quickly because positioning probes is a pain in my arse. I didn't require Astrometrics 5 under the old system, but I do now if I want to use Deepspace probes. 12 days of training for that one. Yay. For me the biggest problem in the new system is wasting my time scanning down something I'm not interested in - whether it's Grav in WH space or Grav in K space. The old multi-spectral probe allowed me to tell in 140 seconds whether it was worth my time to stay in the system. Now I spend 10x that finding out I don't want to be there. It's fun and exciting for those who never explored before, but not for me.
Aeo IV Amarr Xomic OmniCorporation	Posted - 2009.03.16 14:14:00 - [60] My only complaint about w-space is that the signals you get are often extremely dense, especially when dealing with a system in which the first 3 or so planets are close together, have moons, and all have a handful of belts, (all of which are within a few AU of one another. As a sort term measure, removing these belts is about the only thing that can be done- w-space isn't practically mine-able, and I can't understand why CCP would think it would be. I remember flying around in w-space the day or so after the patch, I found a bunch of w-space sites and such not, but nothing to fight, so I left-- there was a guy on the other side of the hole, and he told me that he couldn't even get his barge to fit into the hole. They just seem pointless to me, unless CCP is going to introduce a new ore, or perhaps a extra-rich form.



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