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Nyota Sol	Posted - 2009.04.01 21:58:00 - [1] Edited by: Nyota Sol on 01/04/2009 21:58:38 There's obviously a bug where you cant get spheres or circles at times, but I'm not interested in discussion that. There are some major changes in this (ill assume this isnt april fools)! 1. new wireframe graphic 2. new scanning effects 3. new ID column on scan results shows specific ID of every target site 4. target IDs scanned to 100% stay 100% in future scans (per session) 5. you can ignore specific IDs or "ignore other results" 6. you can bookmark warpable targets without going there (or pretending to) I just had about 10 sites clumped together and ignored all except for one signature. I scanned it down and it was a wormhole. I bookmarked it before trying to warp to it. I removed the ignoring of all the other sites and set 1 probe back to max range. Rescanned and the WH remained at a 100% warpable hit. FIRST THOUGHTS This will make sifting through lots of sigs in wspace very easy for even a new pilot, which is both good and bad. This is so empowering that it seems the sole benefit of better skills is saving time on scanning. On the one hand, I love the idea of more activity in w-space, because more activity means more materials, more pvp, more competition and more w-space hilarity. On the other hand, I've scoffed at those complaining about exploration as a profession being destroyed. However, I think the DSP strength change and these changes could actually mean just that. I don't see any REAL advantages of having more than Astro 1 with these changes if all you want is to poke at exploration sites. Perhaps I am missing something, but DSP are mostly worthless and these new features means everybody can sort through signals like a pro. *SUGGESTIONS:* Make this ability to ignore IDs something that requires Astrometrics 5 Make this ability to see IDs something that requires Pinpointing 4 I have neither ability yet, so I'm not saying that because i'm a bitter veteran. I just want to see this as a viable profession worth investing energy into. ___________________________________________ *Lost in Space* - Apocrypha Exploration Resources
AndrewNardella	Posted - 2009.04.01 22:21:00 - [2] I disagree with your suggestions. I like the idea of the new scanning features. BUT I do agree that they have the potential to make things too easy. I suggest that being able to identify sigs with an id should require a module to be active thus preventing cloaking while using this feature. And when this module is deactivated all information except bookmarks is lost and the next scan performed when the module is reactivated generated NE ID numbers. I also think that the only thing that should be possible with this is to see an id number. scrub the ignore function, make the player do that manually with crtl click. As for remote bookmarking I think the feature is complete rubbish. There are already options for that: Cloak Go in your pod Send a friend in fleet But perhaps you could make it so that the scan ignores everything within .25 AU of a bookmark? Scanning is hard. In extremely dense systems it is too hard. I like the challenge and it should remain challenging thus giving value to players who are able to scan. Would making ECM twice as skill intensive fix the falcon balance issues people wine about? It wont. Making things skill intensive is an ineffective solution.
Nyota Sol	Posted - 2009.04.01 23:09:00 - [3] Edited by: Nyota Sol on 01/04/2009 23:09:45 Let's keep in mind that this is on the test server and may not be FINAL. Example screenshots: a) http://i41.tinypic.com/2ib2e11.jpg (notice 2 @ 100% on new scan) b) http://i40.tinypic.com/w1w8xs.jpg (notice ignore option) c) http://i41.tinypic.com/upi4l.jpg (notice all ignored except 1) I agree that it should be more challenging both in tactics and in skills. I say that as somebody with only 4-2-2-2 astro skills, not as some vet with all 5s. I wouldn't cry if they kept the IDs but removed the IgnoreID feature (or vice versa but i think the ignore feature is what's overpowered). I don't think making covertops decloak is the right solution. Perhaps making some of these features require DSSProbes? Perhaps require both Astro 5 & Astro Pinpointing 5 to get the ignore feature? ___________________________________________ *Lost in Space* - Apocrypha Exploration Resources
Manfred Rickenbocker The Elliance	Posted - 2009.04.02 01:28:00 - [4] I, for one, am very much in favor of these changes. It is problematic in wormhole space when you cant discern different objects from each other. 1) Wireframe: Ok, the old one was fine with me. Dont care either way. Need to add a feature that prevents click-drag resizing because that is getting on my nerves with dense clusters. 2) Effects: dont care. 3) IDs column: A MUST. Particularly if they arent random and are associated with a site you are scanning. This can avoid some painful problems. 4) 100% scans: not really an issue if IDs are pre-associated. And if you can bookmark them remotely you dont care anymore. 5) Ignoring: hit or miss. Depends on how IDs are associated. Mental ignoring is just as easy. 6) Bookmarking: rather not. Just make them persistent beacons (like cynos) that you can warp to from the system map. Sites already become beacons after you arrive at them but you cant warp to them. Make this work. ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times.
Nyota Sol	Posted - 2009.04.02 01:38:00 - [5] Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker 5) Ignoring: hit or miss. Depends on how IDs are associated. Mental ignoring is just as easy. The combination of the new ignore feature and the 100% targets staying 100% on new scans, together they make the most powerful new dynamics in these changes. Far more powerful than the IDs themselves. If they need to pull back on this anywhere, it's in that combo. Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker 6) Bookmarking: rather not. Just make them persistent beacons (like cynos) that you can warp to from the system map. Sites already become beacons after you arrive at them but you cant warp to them. Make this work. I think i'd rather keep it as it is. Remote bookmarking seems unnecessarily powerful and i'd also like to see auto-beacons on the map be unwarpable. ___________________________________________ *Lost in Space* - Apocrypha Exploration Resources
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.02 01:40:00 - [6] Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 02/04/2009 01:47:21 Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 02/04/2009 01:42:04 IDs, remote bookmarking, etc, are good IMO. However, the option to ignore sigs makes things too easy, and removes some of the fun of shifting through the clusterf**k that is the center of a wormhole system. My suggestion would be to make the ignore thing only work when the signal strength hits a certain limit, in the same way as type/site name. E.g, ID would only show up at a certain strength. Also... 'Ignore other results' pretty much removes the difficulty of deciding which signal is which, and isn't really to my taste.
Manfred Rickenbocker The Elliance	Posted - 2009.04.02 01:57:00 - [7] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 02/04/2009 01:47:21 Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 02/04/2009 01:42:04 IDs, remote bookmarking, etc, are good IMO. However, the option to ignore sigs makes things too easy, and removes some of the fun of shifting through the clusterf**k that is the center of a wormhole system. My suggestion would be to make the ignore thing only work when the signal strength hits a certain limit, in the same way as type/site name. E.g, ID would only show up at a certain strength. Also... 'Ignore other results' pretty much removes the difficulty of deciding which signal is which, and isn't really to my taste. The ID should ALWAYS be available. That, in essence, would fix the majority of the problems with the current system. With the ID you can determine what site you are looking at and (if you took notes mental/paper/otherwise) can remember to ignore it. ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.02 02:42:00 - [8] Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker The ID should ALWAYS be available. That, in essence, would fix the majority of the problems with the current system. With the ID you can determine what site you are looking at and (if you took notes mental/paper/otherwise) can remember to ignore it. Making things easy does not necessarily make them challenging and fun...
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2009.04.02 04:11:00 - [9] Awesome changes. I'm indifferent about some of them but they seem more good than bad. I think y'all need to come to terms with the fact they want exploration to be easy. Your skills.. well, you can still find sites faster with good skills, which certainly makes it easier on you if you want to map out a system (very useful in w-space I imagine) and being able to scan down 2 sites at once with astro 5 is quite handy. TBH the only people I feel sorry for are those who have Astrometric Acquisition to V... that's like 2.5 million scans to make up for the training time If anything they should maybe tweak DSPs (again) to make them more useful. Or maybe tie in the number of sites you can ignore with the Acquisition skill. But overall the proposed changes to scanning look great and make sense. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Manfred Rickenbocker The Elliance	Posted - 2009.04.02 05:38:00 - [10] Edited by: Manfred Rickenbocker on 02/04/2009 05:39:13 Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker The ID should ALWAYS be available. That, in essence, would fix the majority of the problems with the current system. With the ID you can determine what site you are looking at and (if you took notes mental/paper/otherwise) can remember to ignore it. Making things easy does not necessarily make them challenging and fun... I dont think I said "easy" did I? I just said that sifting through the clutter and avoiding redundancy is impossible at worst and absurd at best, particularly in dense WH systems. I would argue that its not necessarily easy but rather more efficient, seeing as how you wont be wasting more of your time re-scanning the same probe result. Edit: Making it "easy" would be making the IDs only psuedo-random, in that you could somewhat predict a site type by its ID. I would never be in favor of that. ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times.

Captain Vampire	Posted - 2009.04.02 05:42:00 - [11] Sweet, sounds a lot like someone is listening up north The changes are all good for PvE, tbh, the system sounds pretty much like a done deal to me. However, these additions doesn't improve PvP probing at all. Widgetwar is not fun.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.02 06:37:00 - [12] Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker I dont think I said "easy" did I? I just said that sifting through the clutter and avoiding redundancy is impossible at worst and absurd at best, particularly in dense WH systems. I would argue that its not necessarily easy but rather more efficient, seeing as how you wont be wasting more of your time re-scanning the same probe result. Easy is the ability to select one signal at the time, and just scan it down with nothing else interfering. That's boring. Challenging is to try to figure out which signal is promising, which isn't, and trying to separate out the different signals as you try to pinpoint the site. I like many of the changes, but the ability to exclude signals, especially the option of excluding all but the one your searching for, makes it easy and only a matter of how much time you're willing to spend tracking down each. E.g not challenging.
source Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2009.04.02 07:07:00 - [13] Edited by: source on 02/04/2009 07:07:51 Thanks CCP, changes appreciated. Vamp totally beat me to it. These are all comments about PVE... This does help pvp a little, as you can continue to track down a single target with IDs but... Unfortunately we still need a way to reduce time with combat probing. I would personally KILL for the following suggestions: 1) Shortcuts that actually move your probes for you. How so? Tighten and loosen their distance. With the current system let's say you have probes set at 4 au and have a good idea where the target is (a reasonable percentage single red dot). To narrow your probes range and set them up to overlap it takes too much time to shift click to select all four, reduce scan range, grab one, drag it closer (tighen the distance), grab # 2, etc etc etc. I suggest that they give us a "Narrow/expand by x au" option. The client would calculate a central point between all the probes selected and bring them closer to the central point by that many au. Then you could simply shift drag this new overlapping tighter group of probes to its new location in 1/10th the time. An alternate way to implement this might be "Mimic setup at next distance down/up" option. So now all selected probes would maintain their same relation to each other, but at the smaller radius. The client would automatically reduce the size and adjust positions of the probes so the layout would look identical, but at a smaller radius. 2) Allow probe grouping with corresponding assignable hotkeys. At times I have 6-8 probes active but only need to move my group of four 0.5au narrow probes to get a direct hit. I have to click click click to deselect the probes I dont want to move, then shift click click click click to make sure the 0.5 au probes are grouped and active, then move them over, analyze. If I need to reuse those three or four inactive probes its click click click again, adjust, etc. If you could group probes and make hotkeys to activate or deactivate a specific group or even just shift drag a specific group while leaving the others active this would very much reduce the time it takes for combat probing as well. These two changes seem like they reduce seconds at a time, but they have to be repeated often and imho are repeated more often than any other task in probing. In the course of probing down an object, I forsee this could literally shave the times in half and help us probers not want to jab our eyeballs out. Also, is there no pleasing you guys? CCP finally listens to the complaints about probes and now people are complaining about them listening? Give me a break, I have millions of SP in probing skills on multiple characters and I don't feel like basic UI options should be skill or equipment limited. You say you want exploration a career worth investing time into. Probing is a difficult system to learn and this new system helps separate those who know how to probe and those who are good at probing. Spend the IRL time mastering the system, you'll be ahead of those who newly pick it up. Again, CCP please consider some of the UI limitations for pvpers and give us some more love =)
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.04.02 10:02:00 - [14] It appears I will have to re-update the faq soon... :-) I have yet to try the changes, so comments reserved till I can try it.
Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2009.04.02 10:45:00 - [15] Edited by: Durzel on 02/04/2009 10:46:38 As a newbie to exploring (only started it since WHs hit) with basic astrometric skills I think that you should only be able to ignore signatures you've scanned down to 100%. That way there will still be some effort involved in pinning down the site you actually want, but it won't be a cakewalk. I actually quite like the process of scanning and it wouldn't bother me if I had to scan down sites I wasn't interested in (e.g. sleeper plexs when I'm just trying to find a way out), so long as once I'd nail them to 100% I could then ignore them, and repeat the process. Having it so you can just cast a wide net and exclude everything except one site straight off the bat sounds too simplistic to me, as mentioned above.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2009.04.02 11:12:00 - [16] Even having base ability to ignore only 100% sigs, for trained explorer it's not a restriction, merely a slight annoyance. You can scan and filter many lower sigs in few iterations. -- Thanks CCP for cu
OSGOD	Posted - 2009.04.02 11:21:00 - [17] love the new scanning system .great job the bird to anyone syas diff :)
OSGOD	Posted - 2009.04.02 11:33:00 - [18] st some posts above and i thank CCP and developement team that none of the above are part of the developement and the input they have into the game is the forums buhda breaths a sih of relief
Shaen Vesuvius	Posted - 2009.04.02 15:33:00 - [19] Edited by: Shaen Vesuvius on 02/04/2009 15:35:13 Originally by: AndrewNardella Edited by: AndrewNardella on 01/04/2009 22:51:01 I disagree with your suggestions. ... As for remote bookmarking I think the feature is complete rubbish. There are already options for that: Cloak Go in your pod Send a friend in fleet Be really quick Cloak: Either cloaking is bugged or the sites you warp to have invisible clouds that reach out for more than 100km, coz i decloak alot when landing at 100km) Go in your pod: Cant, you wont have a scan result to warp to. Same as switching ship. Be really quick: a decloaked on landing covops with 2xt2 intertia stabs + 5 sleeper towers = go home in pod. Not an option. (see also cloak) Send a friend in fleet: To have 2 ppl to bm is site sounds ******ed to me altho i use that method atm with a buddy in a shuttle because the other 3 options dont work. So unless i can again safely warp at 100km in a cloaked cov ops I vote for the remote BM option. edited for second option : 30 second non agression timer upon landing.
Nyota Sol	Posted - 2009.04.02 16:05:00 - [20] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker I dont think I said "easy" did I? I just said that sifting through the clutter and avoiding redundancy is impossible at worst and absurd at best, particularly in dense WH systems. I would argue that its not necessarily easy but rather more efficient, seeing as how you wont be wasting more of your time re-scanning the same probe result. Easy is the ability to select one signal at the time, and just scan it down with nothing else interfering. That's boring. Challenging is to try to figure out which signal is promising, which isn't, and trying to separate out the different signals as you try to pinpoint the site. I like many of the changes, but the ability to exclude signals, especially the option of excluding all but the one your searching for, makes it easy and only a matter of how much time you're willing to spend tracking down each. E.g not challenging. It might be nice if they made it so you can only use IgnoreID features once you get down to 75% AND if have Astro 4 or 5. This is the kind of direction i think they need to go in. That ability is extremely powerful. Indeed, all the astro skills become just a question of speeding up a very simple process for exploration scanning. They remain useful for pvp purposes, obviously, but it's another deathblow to exploration as a profession. ___________________________________________ *Lost in Space* - Apocrypha Exploration Resources

Nyota Sol	Posted - 2009.04.02 16:20:00 - [21] Originally by: source This does help pvp a little, as you can continue to track down a single target with IDs but... Unfortunately we still need a way to reduce time with combat probing. With these changes, maxing astro skills would be of interest to combat probers. Basic explorers would honestly have little need for advanced astro skills. Astro 1 would get you the ability to use core probes and to track down most sites. Unfortunately or fortunately, combat probers get only subtle benefits. Being able to start by filtering down to a single ID or a set of IDs is extremely powerful. If you setup the scanner to track a single ID it will be lost when you change sessions or jump to another system, however I am not sure if a ship's ID would remain the same in a new system (or session) anyways. I doubt it. While folks submit complaints about how combat scanning is "too slow," i'd point out that many players seem to have felt it was way too fast previously. Originally by: source 1) Shortcuts that actually move your probes for you. How so? Tighten and loosen their distance. Why would you even waste time suggesting this? I've only been here a short while but i've learned enough to know that CCP wouldnt come close to considering this. Originally by: source 2) Allow probe grouping with corresponding assignable hotkeys. At times I have 6-8 probes active but only need to move my group of four 0.5au narrow probes to get a direct hit. I have to click click click to deselect the probes I dont want to move, then shift click click click click to make sure the 0.5 au probes are grouped and active, then move them over, analyze. If I need to reuse those three or four inactive probes its click click click again, adjust, etc. I'd simply like the shift-select interface to work smoothly. I want the ability for DRONES to be launched by keybind and a set group. If they ever implement that, maybe they could take a moment to setup probe groups as well. Otherwise, i dont expect any attempts to make it even more easy. ___________________________________________ *Lost in Space* - Apocrypha Exploration Resources
Jocca Quinn Matari BackBone Fate Weavers	Posted - 2009.04.02 16:27:00 - [22] Anyone else missing the dots for sigs ? .. I get the hits for anomalies OK but not a sign of where the sigs are. Makes it a little hard to figure out where to focus the probes. none of us are free as long as one of us is chained none of us are free
Nyota Sol	Posted - 2009.04.02 16:31:00 - [23] Edited by: Nyota Sol on 02/04/2009 16:31:30 86438 update today. i havent checked for any changes, yet, relating to exploration. updating sisi unfortunately always reboots my computer and i havent had time to update yet. somebody please confirm if these basic changes remain in 86438 and if the bugs remain. ___________________________________________ *Lost in Space* - Apocrypha Exploration Resources
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.04.02 17:30:00 - [24] A difficult UI is not game balance. Being able to effectively check off sites as you find them is a godsend.
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.04.02 17:35:00 - [25] Hm. I'm not sure I like the new wireframe - it's less obtrusive, but also less visible for the overlaps. Workable, though. The scanning effects need work. As they are, they look meh, especially with tethraedon formations. I have to major gripes with the current probing interface that are not addressed yet. The first is that it's way too easy to change the the radius of probes accidentally when trying to turn the camera, especially with multiple overlapping probe spheres - make that require a modifier key (ctrl?), or disable-able via the ESC menu, or something. The second is that you can accidentlly hit the arrow pointing towards you from a cube while trying to move it via the cube surface. The arrows the reduce the clickable area drastically. I could imagine either removing just the arrows pointing towards the viewport after a certain angle (45 deg or so), or actually just remove the arrows completely - you can increase the cube size somewhat then, too. Otherwise, very nice changes. Thanks for them :-)
Manfred Rickenbocker The Elliance	Posted - 2009.04.02 17:36:00 - [26] Originally by: Jocca Quinn Anyone else missing the dots for sigs ? .. I get the hits for anomalies OK but not a sign of where the sigs are. Makes it a little hard to figure out where to focus the probes. Ok, Ill bite. Do you know how the probe system works? One probe returns a sphere, two return a circle, three: two dots, four: one dot. Granted, I think CCP needs to work on their spatial math. Sometimes the circle appears in a rather erratic location rather than the actual intersection of the two spheres generated by the probes. For the love of all that's sane, fix this please! ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times.
Nethras Minmatar Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.04.02 17:44:00 - [27] Originally by: AndrewNardella As for remote bookmarking I think the feature is complete rubbish. There are already options for that: Cloak Go in your pod Send a friend in fleet Be really quick Remote bookmarking has some major advantages, over any of these, even if the risks currently required to BM sites are considered desirable: Remotely BMing a site wouldn't spawn it like warping to a site does if you're the first to find it. Not only does this avoid server load of having every useless, unwanted site anyone has scanned down spawned if no one is going to use it, but it allows CCP to tune timed rat spawns and site despawn triggers without worrying about how much time someone should have to switch to another ship after scanning it down. Being able to BM the site itself should let us automatically record the name of the site, instead of having to type it every time. Minor convenience, but still nice. Remote BMing will let you continue doing something else uninterrupted while scanning - ie, say, harvesting gas out of a wormhole gas site without having to warp off every time you scan down another grav site, without having to use an alt and dual client. Being able to ignore particular signatures will also make scanning for particular ships possible in a reasonable amount of time if there's a POS or 3 with a dozen+ empty ships in that area, many of the same hull size, or allow people to ignore friendly ships if they have time to set up in advance.
Nyota Sol	Posted - 2009.04.02 17:58:00 - [28] *MORE SUGGESTIONS:* [OR] Require hitting 25% before you can use the IgnoreID options on the applicable IDs (perhaps make this decrease 10% per Pinpointing skill rank from 75% - and then give DSProbes its own 25% reduction bonus which then makes Astro 5 very valuable) Make some "good stuff" spawn beyond 16au from planets. Make it optional to change probe range by wireframe selection. ___________________________________________ *Lost in Space* - Apocrypha Exploration Resources
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.04.02 18:42:00 - [29] Edited by: Space Wanderer on 02/04/2009 18:43:25 Ok. Tried the new system. On one hand I have to admit it makes a lot of sense. If different probes are able to combine different signals from the same site, that means that there is some property in that signal that allows the probes to distinguish the site. So it only makes sense that it can be used by the pilot and not only by the probes. Also, once this information is available it also makes sense to have a filtering mechanism, since it is something so easy that could run on a C64. As another poster said, it's good to have a system that is challenging by design, while it is bad to have a system challenging by bad design (i.e. purposefully crippling the interface to not do something that the system already does). Having said that... well I agree that it's back to easy-mode for everybody. Last wh I spent I had to scan for half an hour or more, but in the end I could identify several signatures I were interested. Now it would again be something like 15/20 mins, top. So: decent skill requirements to fully use this property are sorely needed. Make it available to those who specialize in scanning, it's not like scanning is not viable to those who do not specialize in it, just more time consuming. Still, I wonder if it is not a return to easy mode, no matter the skill requirements. Other thoughts?
Jalum Krayal	Posted - 2009.04.02 19:14:00 - [30] These changes are appreciated and _necessary_ if CCP continues to fill WH space with 95% Gravimetric sites. Thank you CCP.



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