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Nyota Sol
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Posted - 2009.04.01 21:58:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Nyota Sol on 01/04/2009 21:58:38
There's obviously a bug where you cant get spheres or circles at times, but I'm not interested in discussion that. There are some major changes in this (ill assume this isnt april fools)!
1. new wireframe graphic
2. new scanning effects
3. new ID column on scan results shows specific ID of every target site
4. target IDs scanned to 100% stay 100% in future scans (per session)
5. you can ignore specific IDs or "ignore other results"
6. you can bookmark warpable targets without going there (or pretending to)
I just had about 10 sites clumped together and ignored all except for one signature. I scanned it down and it was a wormhole. I bookmarked it before trying to warp to it. I removed the ignoring of all the other sites and set 1 probe back to max range. Rescanned and the WH remained at a 100% warpable hit.
FIRST THOUGHTS
This will make sifting through lots of sigs in wspace very easy for even a new pilot, which is both good and bad. This is so empowering that it seems the sole benefit of better skills is saving time on scanning.
On the one hand, I love the idea of more activity in w-space, because more activity means more materials, more pvp, more competition and more w-space hilarity.
On the other hand, I've scoffed at those complaining about exploration as a profession being destroyed. However, I think the DSP strength change and these changes could actually mean just that. I don't see any REAL advantages of having more than Astro 1 with these changes if all you want is to poke at exploration sites. Perhaps I am missing something, but DSP are mostly worthless and these new features means everybody can sort through signals like a pro.
SUGGESTIONS:
 Make this ability to ignore IDs something that requires Astrometrics 5
Make this ability to see IDs something that requires Pinpointing 4
I have neither ability yet, so I'm not saying that because i'm a bitter veteran. I just want to see this as a viable profession worth investing energy into.
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Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
AndrewNardella
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Posted - 2009.04.01 22:21:00 -
[2]
I disagree with your suggestions. I like the idea of the new scanning features. BUT I do agree that they have the potential to make things too easy. I suggest that being able to identify sigs with an id should require a module to be active thus preventing cloaking while using this feature. And when this module is deactivated all information except bookmarks is lost and the next scan performed when the module is reactivated generated NE ID numbers.
I also think that the only thing that should be possible with this is to see an id number. scrub the ignore function, make the player do that manually with crtl click.
As for remote bookmarking I think the feature is complete rubbish. There are already options for that:
Cloak
Go in your pod
Send a friend in fleet
But perhaps you could make it so that the scan ignores everything within .25 AU of a bookmark?
Scanning is hard. In extremely dense systems it is too hard. I like the challenge and it should remain challenging thus giving value to players who are able to scan.
Would making ECM twice as skill intensive fix the falcon balance issues people wine about? It wont. Making things skill intensive is an ineffective solution.
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Nyota Sol
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Posted - 2009.04.01 23:09:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Nyota Sol on 01/04/2009 23:09:45
Let's keep in mind that this is on the test server and may not be FINAL.
Example screenshots:
a) http://i41.tinypic.com/2ib2e11.jpg (notice 2 @ 100% on new scan)
b) http://i40.tinypic.com/w1w8xs.jpg (notice ignore option)
c) http://i41.tinypic.com/upi4l.jpg (notice all ignored except 1)
I agree that it should be more challenging both in tactics and in skills. I say that as somebody with only 4-2-2-2 astro skills, not as some vet with all 5s.
I wouldn't cry if they kept the IDs but removed the IgnoreID feature (or vice versa but i think the ignore feature is what's overpowered). I don't think making covertops decloak is the right solution.
Perhaps making some of these features require DSSProbes? Perhaps require both Astro 5 & Astro Pinpointing 5 to get the ignore feature?
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Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
Manfred Rickenbocker
The Elliance
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Posted - 2009.04.02 01:28:00 -
[4]
I, for one, am very much in favor of these changes. It is problematic in wormhole space when you cant discern different objects from each other.
1) Wireframe: Ok, the old one was fine with me. Dont care either way. Need to add a feature that prevents click-drag resizing because that is getting on my nerves with dense clusters.
2) Effects: dont care.
3) IDs column: A MUST. Particularly if they arent random and are associated with a site you are scanning. This can avoid some painful problems.
4) 100% scans: not really an issue if IDs are pre-associated. And if you can bookmark them remotely you dont care anymore.
5) Ignoring: hit or miss. Depends on how IDs are associated. Mental ignoring is just as easy.
6) Bookmarking: rather not. Just make them persistent beacons (like cynos) that you can warp to from the system map. Sites already become beacons after you arrive at them but you cant warp to them. Make this work.
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Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Nyota Sol
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Posted - 2009.04.02 01:38:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
5) Ignoring: hit or miss. Depends on how IDs are associated. Mental ignoring is just as easy.
The combination of the new ignore feature and the 100% targets staying 100% on new scans, together they make the most powerful new dynamics in these changes.
Far more powerful than the IDs themselves.
If they need to pull back on this anywhere, it's in that combo.
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
6) Bookmarking: rather not. Just make them persistent beacons (like cynos) that you can warp to from the system map. Sites already become beacons after you arrive at them but you cant warp to them. Make this work.
I think i'd rather keep it as it is. Remote bookmarking seems unnecessarily powerful and i'd also like to see auto-beacons on the map be unwarpable.
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Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.02 01:40:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 02/04/2009 01:47:21
Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 02/04/2009 01:42:04
IDs, remote bookmarking, etc, are good IMO. However, the option to ignore sigs makes things too easy, and removes some of the fun of shifting through the clusterf**k that is the center of a wormhole system.
My suggestion would be to make the ignore thing only work when the signal strength hits a certain limit, in the same way as type/site name.
E.g, ID would only show up at a certain strength. Also... 'Ignore other results' pretty much removes the difficulty of deciding which signal is which, and isn't really to my taste.
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Manfred Rickenbocker
The Elliance
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Posted - 2009.04.02 01:57:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 02/04/2009 01:47:21
Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 02/04/2009 01:42:04
IDs, remote bookmarking, etc, are good IMO. However, the option to ignore sigs makes things too easy, and removes some of the fun of shifting through the clusterf**k that is the center of a wormhole system.
My suggestion would be to make the ignore thing only work when the signal strength hits a certain limit, in the same way as type/site name.
E.g, ID would only show up at a certain strength. Also... 'Ignore other results' pretty much removes the difficulty of deciding which signal is which, and isn't really to my taste.
The ID should ALWAYS be available. That, in essence, would fix the majority of the problems with the current system. With the ID you can determine what site you are looking at and (if you took notes mental/paper/otherwise) can remember to ignore it.
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Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.02 02:42:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
The ID should ALWAYS be available. That, in essence, would fix the majority of the problems with the current system. With the ID you can determine what site you are looking at and (if you took notes mental/paper/otherwise) can remember to ignore it.
Making things easy does not necessarily make them challenging and fun...
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.04.02 04:11:00 -
[9]
Awesome changes. I'm indifferent about some of them but they seem more good than bad.
I think y'all need to come to terms with the fact they want exploration to be easy. Your skills.. well, you can still find sites faster with good skills, which certainly makes it easier on you if you want to map out a system (very useful in w-space I imagine) and being able to scan down 2 sites at once with astro 5 is quite handy. TBH the only people I feel sorry for are those who have Astrometric Acquisition to V... that's like 2.5 million scans to make up for the training time 
If anything they should maybe tweak DSPs (again) to make them more useful. Or maybe tie in the number of sites you can ignore with the Acquisition skill. But overall the proposed changes to scanning look great and make sense.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Manfred Rickenbocker
The Elliance
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Posted - 2009.04.02 05:38:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Manfred Rickenbocker on 02/04/2009 05:39:13
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
The ID should ALWAYS be available. That, in essence, would fix the majority of the problems with the current system. With the ID you can determine what site you are looking at and (if you took notes mental/paper/otherwise) can remember to ignore it.
Making things easy does not necessarily make them challenging and fun...
I dont think I said "easy" did I? I just said that sifting through the clutter and avoiding redundancy is impossible at worst and absurd at best, particularly in dense WH systems. I would argue that its not necessarily easy but rather more efficient, seeing as how you wont be wasting more of your time re-scanning the same probe result.
Edit: Making it "easy" would be making the IDs only psuedo-random, in that you could somewhat predict a site type by its ID. I would never be in favor of that.
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Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
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Captain Vampire
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Posted - 2009.04.02 05:42:00 -
[11]
Sweet, sounds a lot like someone is listening up north 
The changes are all good for PvE, tbh, the system sounds pretty much like a done deal to me. However, these additions doesn't improve PvP probing at all. Widgetwar is not fun.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.02 06:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
I dont think I said "easy" did I? I just said that sifting through the clutter and avoiding redundancy is impossible at worst and absurd at best, particularly in dense WH systems. I would argue that its not necessarily easy but rather more efficient, seeing as how you wont be wasting more of your time re-scanning the same probe result.
Easy is the ability to select one signal at the time, and just scan it down with nothing else interfering. That's boring.
Challenging is to try to figure out which signal is promising, which isn't, and trying to separate out the different signals as you try to pinpoint the site.
I like many of the changes, but the ability to exclude signals, especially the option of excluding all but the one your searching for, makes it easy and only a matter of how much time you're willing to spend tracking down each. E.g not challenging.
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source
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.04.02 07:07:00 -
[13]
Edited by: source on 02/04/2009 07:07:51
Thanks CCP, changes appreciated.
Vamp totally beat me to it. These are all comments about PVE... This does help pvp a little, as you can continue to track down a single target with IDs but...
Unfortunately we still need a way to reduce time with combat probing. I would personally KILL for the following suggestions:
1) Shortcuts that actually move your probes for you. How so? Tighten and loosen their distance.
With the current system let's say you have probes set at 4 au and have a good idea where the target is (a reasonable percentage single red dot). To narrow your probes range and set them up to overlap it takes too much time to shift click to select all four, reduce scan range, grab one, drag it closer (tighen the distance), grab # 2, etc etc etc. I suggest that they give us a "Narrow/expand by x au" option. The client would calculate a central point between all the probes selected and bring them closer to the central point by that many au. Then you could simply shift drag this new overlapping tighter group of probes to its new location in 1/10th the time.
An alternate way to implement this might be "Mimic setup at next distance down/up" option. So now all selected probes would maintain their same relation to each other, but at the smaller radius. The client would automatically reduce the size and adjust positions of the probes so the layout would look identical, but at a smaller radius.
2) Allow probe grouping with corresponding assignable hotkeys.
At times I have 6-8 probes active but only need to move my group of four 0.5au narrow probes to get a direct hit. I have to click click click to deselect the probes I dont want to move, then shift click click click click to make sure the 0.5 au probes are grouped and active, then move them over, analyze. If I need to reuse those three or four inactive probes its click click click again, adjust, etc.
If you could group probes and make hotkeys to activate or deactivate a specific group or even just shift drag a specific group while leaving the others active this would very much reduce the time it takes for combat probing as well.
These two changes seem like they reduce seconds at a time, but they have to be repeated often and imho are repeated more often than any other task in probing. In the course of probing down an object, I forsee this could literally shave the times in half and help us probers not want to jab our eyeballs out.
Also, is there no pleasing you guys? CCP finally listens to the complaints about probes and now people are complaining about them listening? Give me a break, I have millions of SP in probing skills on multiple characters and I don't feel like basic UI options should be skill or equipment limited.
You say you want exploration a career worth investing time into. Probing is a difficult system to learn and this new system helps separate those who know how to probe and those who are good at probing. Spend the IRL time mastering the system, you'll be ahead of those who newly pick it up.
Again, CCP please consider some of the UI limitations for pvpers and give us some more love =)
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.04.02 10:02:00 -
[14]
It appears I will have to re-update the faq soon... :-)
I have yet to try the changes, so comments reserved till I can try it.
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.04.02 10:45:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Durzel on 02/04/2009 10:46:38
As a newbie to exploring (only started it since WHs hit) with basic astrometric skills I think that you should only be able to ignore signatures you've scanned down to 100%.
That way there will still be some effort involved in pinning down the site you actually want, but it won't be a cakewalk. I actually quite like the process of scanning and it wouldn't bother me if I had to scan down sites I wasn't interested in (e.g. sleeper plexs when I'm just trying to find a way out), so long as once I'd nail them to 100% I could then ignore them, and repeat the process.
Having it so you can just cast a wide net and exclude everything except one site straight off the bat sounds too simplistic to me, as mentioned above.
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.02 11:12:00 -
[16]
Even having base ability to ignore only 100% sigs, for trained explorer it's not a restriction, merely a slight annoyance. You can scan and filter many lower sigs in few iterations.
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Thanks CCP for cu |
OSGOD
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Posted - 2009.04.02 11:21:00 -
[17]
love the new scanning system .great job the bird to anyone syas diff :)
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OSGOD
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Posted - 2009.04.02 11:33:00 -
[18]
st some posts above and i thank CCP and developement team that none of the above are part of the developement and the input they have into the game is the forums buhda breaths a sih of relief
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Shaen Vesuvius
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Posted - 2009.04.02 15:33:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Shaen Vesuvius on 02/04/2009 15:35:13
Originally by: AndrewNardella
Edited by: AndrewNardella on 01/04/2009 22:51:01
I disagree with your suggestions. ...
As for remote bookmarking I think the feature is complete rubbish. There are already options for that:
Cloak
Go in your pod
Send a friend in fleet
Be really quick
Cloak: Either cloaking is bugged or the sites you warp to have invisible clouds that reach out for more than 100km, coz i decloak alot when landing at 100km)
Go in your pod: Cant, you wont have a scan result to warp to. Same as switching ship.
Be really quick: a decloaked on landing covops with 2xt2 intertia stabs + 5 sleeper towers = go home in pod. Not an option. (see also cloak)
Send a friend in fleet: To have 2 ppl to bm is site sounds ******ed to me altho i use that method atm with a buddy in a shuttle because the other 3 options dont work.
So unless i can again safely warp at 100km in a cloaked cov ops I vote for the remote BM option.
edited for second option : 30 second non agression timer upon landing.
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Nyota Sol
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Posted - 2009.04.02 16:05:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
I dont think I said "easy" did I? I just said that sifting through the clutter and avoiding redundancy is impossible at worst and absurd at best, particularly in dense WH systems. I would argue that its not necessarily easy but rather more efficient, seeing as how you wont be wasting more of your time re-scanning the same probe result.
Easy is the ability to select one signal at the time, and just scan it down with nothing else interfering. That's boring.
Challenging is to try to figure out which signal is promising, which isn't, and trying to separate out the different signals as you try to pinpoint the site.
I like many of the changes, but the ability to exclude signals, especially the option of excluding all but the one your searching for, makes it easy and only a matter of how much time you're willing to spend tracking down each. E.g not challenging.
It might be nice if they made it so you can only use IgnoreID features once you get down to 75% AND if have Astro 4 or 5. This is the kind of direction i think they need to go in. That ability is extremely powerful.
Indeed, all the astro skills become just a question of speeding up a very simple process for exploration scanning. They remain useful for pvp purposes, obviously, but it's another deathblow to exploration as a profession.
___________________________________________
Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
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Nyota Sol
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Posted - 2009.04.02 16:20:00 -
[21]
Originally by: source
This does help pvp a little, as you can continue to track down a single target with IDs but...
Unfortunately we still need a way to reduce time with combat probing.
With these changes, maxing astro skills would be of interest to combat probers. Basic explorers would honestly have little need for advanced astro skills. Astro 1 would get you the ability to use core probes and to track down most sites. Unfortunately or fortunately, combat probers get only subtle benefits.
Being able to start by filtering down to a single ID or a set of IDs is extremely powerful. If you setup the scanner to track a single ID it will be lost when you change sessions or jump to another system, however I am not sure if a ship's ID would remain the same in a new system (or session) anyways. I doubt it.
While folks submit complaints about how combat scanning is "too slow," i'd point out that many players seem to have felt it was way too fast previously.
Originally by: source
1) Shortcuts that actually move your probes for you. How so? Tighten and loosen their distance.
Why would you even waste time suggesting this? I've only been here a short while but i've learned enough to know that CCP wouldnt come close to considering this. 
Originally by: source
2) Allow probe grouping with corresponding assignable hotkeys.
At times I have 6-8 probes active but only need to move my group of four 0.5au narrow probes to get a direct hit. I have to click click click to deselect the probes I dont want to move, then shift click click click click to make sure the 0.5 au probes are grouped and active, then move them over, analyze. If I need to reuse those three or four inactive probes its click click click again, adjust, etc.
I'd simply like the shift-select interface to work smoothly.
I want the ability for DRONES to be launched by keybind and a set group. If they ever implement that, maybe they could take a moment to setup probe groups as well. Otherwise, i dont expect any attempts to make it even more easy.
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Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
Jocca Quinn
Matari BackBone
Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2009.04.02 16:27:00 -
[22]
Anyone else missing the dots for sigs ? .. I get the hits for anomalies OK but not a sign of where the sigs are.
Makes it a little hard to figure out where to focus the probes.
none of us are free
as long as one of us is chained
none of us are free |
Nyota Sol
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Posted - 2009.04.02 16:31:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Nyota Sol on 02/04/2009 16:31:30
86438 update today.
i havent checked for any changes, yet, relating to exploration. updating sisi unfortunately always reboots my computer and i havent had time to update yet.
somebody please confirm if these basic changes remain in 86438 and if the bugs remain.
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Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.04.02 17:30:00 -
[24]
A difficult UI is not game balance. Being able to effectively check off sites as you find them is a godsend.
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Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.04.02 17:35:00 -
[25]
Hm. I'm not sure I like the new wireframe - it's less obtrusive, but also less visible for the overlaps. Workable, though. The scanning effects need work. As they are, they look meh, especially with tethraedon formations.
I have to major gripes with the current probing interface that are not addressed yet. The first is that it's way too easy to change the the radius of probes accidentally when trying to turn the camera, especially with multiple overlapping probe spheres - make that require a modifier key (ctrl?), or disable-able via the ESC menu, or something.
The second is that you can accidentlly hit the arrow pointing towards you from a cube while trying to move it via the cube surface. The arrows the reduce the clickable area drastically. I could imagine either removing just the arrows pointing towards the viewport after a certain angle (45 deg or so), or actually just remove the arrows completely - you can increase the cube size somewhat then, too.
Otherwise, very nice changes. Thanks for them :-)
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Manfred Rickenbocker
The Elliance
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Posted - 2009.04.02 17:36:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jocca Quinn
Anyone else missing the dots for sigs ? .. I get the hits for anomalies OK but not a sign of where the sigs are.
Makes it a little hard to figure out where to focus the probes.
Ok, Ill bite. Do you know how the probe system works? One probe returns a sphere, two return a circle, three: two dots, four: one dot.
Granted, I think CCP needs to work on their spatial math. Sometimes the circle appears in a rather erratic location rather than the actual intersection of the two spheres generated by the probes. For the love of all that's sane, fix this please!
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Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Nethras
Minmatar
Heretic Army
Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2009.04.02 17:44:00 -
[27]
Originally by: AndrewNardella
As for remote bookmarking I think the feature is complete rubbish. There are already options for that:
Cloak
Go in your pod
Send a friend in fleet
Be really quick
Remote bookmarking has some major advantages, over any of these, even if the risks currently required to BM sites are considered desirable:
Remotely BMing a site wouldn't spawn it like warping to a site does if you're the first to find it. Not only does this avoid server load of having every useless, unwanted site anyone has scanned down spawned if no one is going to use it, but it allows CCP to tune timed rat spawns and site despawn triggers without worrying about how much time someone should have to switch to another ship after scanning it down.
Being able to BM the site itself should let us automatically record the name of the site, instead of having to type it every time. Minor convenience, but still nice.
Remote BMing will let you continue doing something else uninterrupted while scanning - ie, say, harvesting gas out of a wormhole gas site without having to warp off every time you scan down another grav site, without having to use an alt and dual client.
Being able to ignore particular signatures will also make scanning for particular ships possible in a reasonable amount of time if there's a POS or 3 with a dozen+ empty ships in that area, many of the same hull size, or allow people to ignore friendly ships if they have time to set up in advance.
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Nyota Sol
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Posted - 2009.04.02 17:58:00 -
[28]
MORE SUGGESTIONS:
[OR] Require hitting 25% before you can use the IgnoreID options on the applicable IDs (perhaps make this decrease 10% per Pinpointing skill rank from 75% - and then give DSProbes its own 25% reduction bonus which then makes Astro 5 very valuable)
Make some "good stuff" spawn beyond 16au from planets.
Make it optional to change probe range by wireframe selection.
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Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:42:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 02/04/2009 18:43:25
Ok. Tried the new system. On one hand I have to admit it makes a lot of sense. If different probes are able to combine different signals from the same site, that means that there is some property in that signal that allows the probes to distinguish the site. So it only makes sense that it can be used by the pilot and not only by the probes. Also, once this information is available it also makes sense to have a filtering mechanism, since it is something so easy that could run on a C64.
As another poster said, it's good to have a system that is challenging by design, while it is bad to have a system challenging by bad design (i.e. purposefully crippling the interface to not do something that the system already does).
Having said that... well I agree that it's back to easy-mode for everybody. Last wh I spent I had to scan for half an hour or more, but in the end I could identify several signatures I were interested. Now it would again be something like 15/20 mins, top.
So: decent skill requirements to fully use this property are sorely needed. Make it available to those who specialize in scanning, it's not like scanning is not viable to those who do not specialize in it, just more time consuming.
Still, I wonder if it is not a return to easy mode, no matter the skill requirements. Other thoughts?
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Jalum Krayal
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Posted - 2009.04.02 19:14:00 -
[30]
These changes are appreciated and _necessary_ if CCP continues to fill WH space with 95% Gravimetric sites.
Thank you CCP.
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Jocca Quinn
Matari BackBone
Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2009.04.02 19:30:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
Originally by: Jocca Quinn
Anyone else missing the dots for sigs ? .. I get the hits for anomalies OK but not a sign of where the sigs are.
Makes it a little hard to figure out where to focus the probes.
Ok, Ill bite. Do you know how the probe system works? One probe returns a sphere, two return a circle, three: two dots, four: one dot.
Yeah I know about the spheres and the circles and the dots. I'm not getting any, at all. I dropped a DSP to check for a sig, closed the range until it stopped showing (ie outside the probe sphere) so the sig was between 4 and 8au from the Sun. Pulled the DSP and dropped 4 cores, spread them out so they just overlapped the sun and had them all on 8au scan. The sig showed in the list but there was no indicator, no globe, no ring, no dot ..
Trying a complete SISI client re-install now.
none of us are free
as long as one of us is chained
none of us are free |
Nyota Sol
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Posted - 2009.04.02 19:34:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 02/04/2009 18:43:25
Ok. Tried the new system. On one hand I have to admit it makes a lot of sense. If different probes are able to combine different signals from the same site, that means that there is some property in that signal that allows the probes to distinguish the site. So it only makes sense that it can be used by the pilot and not only by the probes. Also, once this information is available it also makes sense to have a filtering mechanism, since it is something so easy that could run on a C64.
This sums up nicely why i like the ID system the most.
It's common sense.
I don't like game features that break with common sense but rationalized with abstract "skill" or learning curve arguments. Common sense means common fun. The differentiation for skill and challenge should be set by real player techniques or advanced character skill.
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Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
Nethras
Minmatar
Heretic Army
Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2009.04.02 19:48:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 02/04/2009 18:43:25
Ok. Tried the new system. On one hand I have to admit it makes a lot of sense. If different probes are able to combine different signals from the same site, that means that there is some property in that signal that allows the probes to distinguish the site. So it only makes sense that it can be used by the pilot and not only by the probes. Also, once this information is available it also makes sense to have a filtering mechanism, since it is something so easy that could run on a C64.
...
Still, I wonder if it is not a return to easy mode, no matter the skill requirements. Other thoughts?
I agree that probes being able to combine scan results only for the same site does pretty much imply they can tell the difference between the sites, and that if the UI does expose that to us, there might as well be simple filtering options.
As for difficulty of scanning... currently, skill levels/other bonuses above the minimum to scan down a site only really help by making it easier to jump more than one scan radius at a time without losing a site via higher result strength and less scan deviation, and giving more leeway in probe positioning and how small you have to go with your probes to find the site.
Higher skills and bonuses do however make it easier to hit 25% on a site to get the type, and from what I've heard it's possible to use 2 probes, one above one below a planet and get types on the vast majority of sites there with high enough skills - assuming that's true (I know it takes more than 3 levels of scan strength skill, and a rigged T1 astrometrics frigate with frig V), with this change, high skills would be extremely helpful to hit 25% quickly and be able to go "eww, another <grav/ladar/whatever>" and filter it out.
If there needs to be more reward for training up scan skills, perhaps the deep space probes could only require, say, a 12.5% hit to tell you the type? Would give at least Astrometrics V some meaning, especially now that there will be less reason to want the ability to leave 4 probes around a result deactivated when you get a result you don't want to warp to yet, while still being able to use another 4 to scan down something else.
With or without the changes though, I see the highest rewards for specialization in scanning as likely coming from PvP probing, where speed is very important and the targets may be extremely hard to scan down if you're going after small ships, recons, etc.
It would be interesting to know how much of a difference someone with high scanning skills finds there to be with a new character on Sisi trained to say racial frig 4, 2-3 levels of scan strength, scan deviation reduction, etc max compared to their normal scanning character.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.04.02 20:43:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Wet Ferret on 02/04/2009 20:43:26
Originally by: Nyota Sol
Edited by: Nyota Sol on 02/04/2009 18:08:33
MORE SUGGESTIONS:
[OR] Require hitting 25% before you can use the IgnoreID options on the applicable IDs (perhaps make this decrease 10% per Pinpointing skill rank from 75% - and then give DSProbes its own 25% reduction bonus which then makes Astro 5 very valuable)
This means you would not be able to ignore IDs until you hit 75% (as a new pilot with astro 1). You could see IDs and still have strong techniques to work around them. Once you hit 75% on something you could set it to ignore.
With every rank of Pinpointing you'd reduce that by 10%. Thus if you maxed out Pinpointing you'd be down to a requirement of 25% to start ignoring applicable IDs.
If you combined Pinpointing 5 with Astro 5, then you'd be able to ignore IDs from the start using DSSProbes. If you combined this with some other reasonable requirement to turn on the ID column (like Astro 3), then i think this new system becomes both awesome and properly rewards those who train exploration.
This would still require you to scan down each sig individually to some extent, no matter what your skill level. Isn't this one of the core complaints with the current mechanics? I'm thinking they're not gonna go for that at all.
Originally by: Jalum Krayal
These changes are appreciated and _necessary_ if CCP continues to fill WH space with 95% Gravimetric sites.
I'm with you there
Originally by: Nethras
As for difficulty of scanning... currently, skill levels/other bonuses above the minimum to scan down a site only really help by making it easier to jump more than one scan radius at a time without losing a site via higher result strength and less scan deviation, and giving more leeway in probe positioning and how small you have to go with your probes to find the site.
"Above the minimum to scan down a site"? So you are aware that some sites cannot be scanned down at all with low Rangefinding skill then... and you can scan down two sites at once with Astro V, or use DSPs (which are nerfed to hell now but w/e). What more do you want? IMO the only skill that really needs help is Acquisition.
edited fail quote
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Nyota Sol
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Posted - 2009.04.02 21:10:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Nyota Sol on 02/04/2009 21:13:12
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Edited by: Wet Ferret on 02/04/2009 20:43:26
Originally by: Nyota Sol
Edited by: Nyota Sol on 02/04/2009 18:08:33
MORE SUGGESTIONS:
[OR] Require hitting 25% before you can use the IgnoreID options on the applicable IDs (perhaps make this decrease 10% per Pinpointing skill rank from 75% - and then give DSProbes its own 25% reduction bonus which then makes Astro 5 very valuable)
This means you would not be able to ignore IDs until you hit 75% (as a new pilot with astro 1). You could see IDs and still have strong techniques to work around them. Once you hit 75% on something you could set it to ignore.
With every rank of Pinpointing you'd reduce that by 10%. Thus if you maxed out Pinpointing you'd be down to a requirement of 25% to start ignoring applicable IDs.
If you combined Pinpointing 5 with Astro 5, then you'd be able to ignore IDs from the start using DSSProbes. If you combined this with some other reasonable requirement to turn on the ID column (like Astro 3), then i think this new system becomes both awesome and properly rewards those who train exploration.
This would still require you to scan down each sig individually to some extent, no matter what your skill level. Isn't this one of the core complaints with the current mechanics? I'm thinking they're not gonna go for that at all.
Here is that refined suggestion restated:
You'd have the IDs and the ability to permanently track things hit to 100%.
You'd get this amazing NEW feature to ignore IDs based on your training level. You'd need 75% signal strength with just Astro 1. If you maxed Astro 5 for DSPs and had Pinpointing 5, you'd get to use the full ignore features immediately without more work per ID.
So those with max training would benefit fully.
Those with starting Astro skills would at least have the option to set an ID to "ignore" once then get it down to 75%. That would still be a fantastic improvement, especially if they can see the IDs and keep targets you hit 100% with the next scans.
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Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
Nyota Sol
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Posted - 2009.04.02 22:32:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Nyota Sol on 02/04/2009 22:33:43
Player1 in Ship1 in System1 seems to always have same ID.
Player1 in Ship1 in System2 gets a different ID.
Player1 in Ship2 in System1 gets a different ID.
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Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
Qui Shon
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Posted - 2009.04.03 06:24:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
Originally by: Jocca Quinn
Anyone else missing the dots for sigs ? .. I get the hits for anomalies OK but not a sign of where the sigs are.
Makes it a little hard to figure out where to focus the probes.
Ok, Ill bite. Do you know how the probe system works? One probe returns a sphere, two return a circle, three: two dots, four: one dot.
Granted, I think CCP needs to work on their spatial math. Sometimes the circle appears in a rather erratic location rather than the actual intersection of the two spheres generated by the probes. For the love of all that's sane, fix this please!
I don't get the spheres at all. Can't tell which of the probes has a signal, without scanning each individually. Maybe that's what he meant too. I'm in a brown/greyish system right now, so could just be background, but even moving the camera around getting different background colors does not help, nor changing graphic settings. Other then that, new graphics are a definite improvement, much easier to get probes right at the edge of where you want them.
As to the changes. Jesus Christ, CCP, why don't you just remove scanning alltogether while you're at it. Just make all sigs 100% identified and warpable as soon as you open the scanner window. Are you planning to adjust all segments of the game for five year old adhd's, or just the scanning part?
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RedClaws
Amarr
Dragon's Rage
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.04.03 07:23:00 -
[38]
Personally I feel that if we indeed get a feature (where once you scan to 100% it'll stay on 100% for the session) , we don't really need the ignore option anymore.
The clutter in WH space should reduce by itself as you scan more complexes at 100% right?
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Manfred Rickenbocker
The Elliance
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Posted - 2009.04.03 18:28:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Qui Shon
I don't get the spheres at all. Can't tell which of the probes has a signal, without scanning each individually.I do get circles and dots though. I'm in a brown/greyish system right now, so could just be background, but even moving the camera around getting different background colors does not help, nor changing graphic settings. Other then that, new graphics are a definite improvement, much easier to get probes right at the edge of where you want them.
You should be able to click on a single result in the scan window and it will show up as a red ghost sphere around one probe showing which probe aquired it provided its only aquired by one probe (atleast on Tranquility, dunno about Singularity yet. Checking this weekend).
Originally by: Nyota Sol
Edited by: Nyota Sol on 02/04/2009 18:08:33
MORE SUGGESTIONS:
[OR] Require hitting 25% before you can use the IgnoreID options on the applicable IDs (perhaps make this decrease 10% per Pinpointing skill rank from 75% - and then give DSProbes its own 25% reduction bonus which then makes Astro 5 very valuable)
This means you would not be able to ignore IDs until you hit 75% (as a new pilot with astro 1). You could see IDs and still have strong techniques to work around them. Once you hit 75% on something you could set it to ignore.
With every rank of Pinpointing you'd reduce that by 10%. Thus if you maxed out Pinpointing you'd be down to a requirement of 25% to start ignoring applicable IDs.
If you combined Pinpointing 5 with Astro 5, then you'd be able to ignore IDs from the start using DSSProbes. If you combined this with some other reasonable requirement to turn on the ID column (like Astro 3), then i think this new system becomes both awesome and properly rewards those who train exploration.
Dunno about this. Part of the problem without IDs is that you can rarely get the signature above 25% until you start focusing on it. IDs should be immediately available. What you CAN do with the Astrometrics/Pinpointing skills is lower the difficulty for detail. So, higher skill levels allows you to see its gravimetric or that its an "Unexceptional Core Deposit" sooner.
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Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Nyota Sol
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Posted - 2009.04.03 18:50:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
Originally by: Nyota Sol
Edited by: Nyota Sol on 02/04/2009 18:08:33
MORE SUGGESTIONS:
[OR] Require hitting 25% before you can use the IgnoreID options on the applicable IDs (perhaps make this decrease 10% per Pinpointing skill rank from 75% - and then give DSProbes its own 25% reduction bonus which then makes Astro 5 very valuable)
This means you would not be able to ignore IDs until you hit 75% (as a new pilot with astro 1). You could see IDs and still have strong techniques to work around them. Once you hit 75% on something you could set it to ignore.
With every rank of Pinpointing you'd reduce that by 10%. Thus if you maxed out Pinpointing you'd be down to a requirement of 25% to start ignoring applicable IDs.
If you combined Pinpointing 5 with Astro 5, then you'd be able to ignore IDs from the start using DSSProbes. If you combined this with some other reasonable requirement to turn on the ID column (like Astro 3), then i think this new system becomes both awesome and properly rewards those who train exploration.
Dunno about this. Part of the problem without IDs is that you can rarely get the signature above 25% until you start focusing on it. IDs should be immediately available. What you CAN do with the Astrometrics/Pinpointing skills is lower the difficulty for detail. So, higher skill levels allows you to see its gravimetric or that its an "Unexceptional Core Deposit" sooner.
Re-read what i wrote.
With my suggestion, you get to see IDs from the moment you get Astro 1 and scan. You'd see all the unique IDs and 100% results would "stick" for future scans. That alone makes scanning a ton easier than how it currently exists.
Beyond this, i am saying that the additional abilities to ignore a specific ID or group of IDs should depend on having advanced training in Astrometric skills. I think it's overkill to give everybody this ignoreID set of features.
___________________________________________
Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2009.04.03 20:17:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
You should be able to click on a single result in the scan window and it will show up as a red ghost sphere around one probe showing which probe aquired it provided its only aquired by one probe (atleast on Tranquility, dunno about Singularity yet. Checking this weekend).
Yes, I know. I'm saying it doesn't work for me. Worked with the old effects, the ones currently on TQ, but not with these new ones on SiSi, and it seems I'm not the only one.
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Ellena Manim
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Posted - 2009.04.04 00:00:00 -
[42]
Wow, Another change. This is grand, really.
Wouldn't make scanning even easier? Yes
Is that a good think for most people ? Yes
Is that good for people who invested some time in training skills that were vital to the previous system? No.
If it's made easier for everyone to actually scan down those cluster in w-space, what would be the point of getting any skills in astrometric? I mean, now that everyone who can spare 20 CPU and a high slot can do pretty much everything a rigged-covert op can do.
Mapping a w-h system was one of the last place where it was helpful to have a dedicated scanner. Now it's gonna be reduced to a handfull of nul-sec site.
I love the new system, like how it works. But I dislike the fact that everyone, their mother, brother, sister and family dog can scan down everything.
Please, give some sort of edge to the people who invested time in skill training over your alt-noob with astro 1
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Nyota Sol
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Posted - 2009.04.04 13:44:00 -
[43]
new sisi patch: 6.1.86469
Red spheres on single hits are back (for better or worse)
I am not able to make 100% results "stick" on new scans using combat probes on a stationary ship. Perhaps it was previously like this? Another player indicated it worked fine on core scanner site signals.
PS. Since it seems that WHs and general exploration sites don't spawn the same way on Singularity as they do on TQ, I'd love to request that the devs make sure Syndicate is a region where a lot of things spawn so that we can more easily test out of FD.
Testers are wasting a lot of time scanning in regions where nothing seems to exist.
___________________________________________
Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.04.04 18:03:00 -
[44]
im rather interested in one thing;
How long and how unique is the scan ID?
If you place something on your ignore list, does it stay on your ignore list... until a session change? until you recall probes? forever? If you come across that ID again (rare, but im sure it would happen eventually), will it still be on your ignore list?
Originally by: Akita T
Seriously ?
...wow... I'm such a forum ho' !
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.04.04 18:37:00 -
[45]
Needed changes to current:
1. The fancy probe analyze animation is unneeded and slows down even my system with many probes going at once.
2. Widget is too small, it is practically impossible to use the cube faces leaving just the annoyingly limited arrows.
Loving the:
1. ID type thing to ignore hits once identified. Will make life in crowded w-space a lot easier.
2. Triangle texture on the probe spheres.
PS: Are the worms disabled? Ran through 20 systems with zero hits.
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Aylara
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Posted - 2009.04.04 22:39:00 -
[46]
Humm, i'm happy that the Astrometrics V gives me the posibillity to use one more probe and the DSP's... unlike required skills at V that give you absolutely nothing... like jury rigging V...
As for scaning being too easy: that depends on how much time you have on your hands and love the "tskk probe ther, tskk probe there, tskk probe there, scan; repeat that x times;". And onestly, a little bit of competion does not hurt in a PVP game.
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Manfred Rickenbocker
The Elliance
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Posted - 2009.04.05 23:37:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Needed changes to current:
PS: Are the worms disabled? Ran through 20 systems with zero hits.
Wormholes are disabled on Singularity to prevent people from risk-free testing their setups on Sleepers.
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Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.04.06 13:04:00 -
[48]
Another reason that CCP needs to seriously consider making the "ignoreID" features tied to the higher astro skills: every other player is going to make alts for ninja salvaging L4s if left the way it is.
Perhaps it is time to make combat probes themselves require something like Astro4 or 5?
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Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
Psihius
Caldari
Atomic Scrapyard
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Posted - 2009.04.06 13:32:00 -
[49]
Hey anyone tried to scan down a sig with astrometrics 1 and then astrometics 3 and other skils upped to 3 at least. Try and you will see how different it is and that some sites just can't be scanned with astrometrics 1. Sometimes I have a hard time to scan down a sig with 6 probes and all skils to 3 (planing on training to 5 them all), had a situation when I just couldn't scan down a sig more than 60%, had to abandon it - it was a job for skilled out falcon pilot.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.04.06 14:11:00 -
[50]
Quote:
If it's made easier for everyone to actually scan down those cluster in w-space, what would be the point of getting any skills in astrometric? I mean, now that everyone who can spare 20 CPU and a high slot can do pretty much everything a rigged-covert op can do.
Have you actually tried?
I went in a WH on a astro-3 level character on a no bonus ship and core launcher.
Unlike when using a proper setup, I had to scan the stuff sometimes down to 0.25 AU probe radius, which takes lots and lots of time.
And in inner planets it's a torture.
Done on another setup the above is painless and takes 5 times less.
So, what do you want more? For those without 5 in every skill to be flogged in public shame, to make it fairer?
What did you really LOSE even if you lost anything at all? Some electronic TIME (not skill, read it again, you *might* lose TIME invested).
If you want to e-rage (I don't mind, but you may), you should focus on those guys "spreading" the knowledge about signatures strengths that let new character know what to pick up first hand. That is actual shortcutting of experience and skill on the field, not some laughable TIME you took to train stuff while asleep.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.04.06 16:08:00 -
[51]
I don't think I like these changes. Properly interpreting results wasn't very hard...but I'll give them a shot.
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Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.04.06 16:11:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Nyota Sol on 06/04/2009 16:14:49
Nobody is denying that higher skills SPEEDS IT UP and can help nail down those trickier sites. But speed and ease are not the same thing.
My concern is personally with the ease granted by the new IgnoreID features. Sure, training up to top astro skill ranks is awesome if you want max speed but the problem is that astro 1 may arguably allow too much as it stands.
PS. I'm only trained up to 4-2-2-2 so my own suggestions do not benefit me.
___________________________________________
Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.04.06 16:24:00 -
[53]
Astrometrics skill is fine. 4 probes are needed to pin down anything, level 1 skill is all that should be needed. Level V skill gives you the ability to scan two sites at once, up from one at level IV.
Look to the other skills if you are 'probing' for some kind of buff. A certain rank 7 comes to mind...
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
DragonWarp
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Posted - 2009.04.06 17:32:00 -
[54]
I would agree with the people saying that ID's should always be shown. As for ass the suggestions talking about changing the Pinpointing and Astrometrics skills, I would suggest that you change the Acquisition skill instead, as it's the least useful of all the skills.
I'm slightly biased though, as it used to be the most useful, so I trained it higher then the other skills.... Now it's the least useful... 10-50% faster scan isn't much when it takes 5 seconds to scan, and then a minute to move probes.
Maybe make it so that it lets you see what you are scanning down sooner, or have it be the skill that does stuff with the ID's, if a skill is used.
But please, please, make the Acquisition skill more useful then it currently is!
~Dragon |
Some Advisor
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Posted - 2009.04.06 17:37:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Astrometrics skill is fine. 4 probes are needed to pin down anything, level 1 skill is all that should be needed. Level V skill gives you the ability to scan two sites at once, up from one at level IV.
with astro 5 and depending on layout of current system where i scan, i use 4 to pinpoint, while the other 4 "search around in vicinity" for other sigs. With 2 probes per sig you can start to pin down sites roughly.
So when done with "the first site", i should have new nice small dots/spheres i can put my probes to to simultan scan 2 new sites :)
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Aldarica
Spinal Discipline
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Posted - 2009.04.06 19:05:00 -
[56]
Meh. Exploration is already dead, these changes would be the last nails in its burialcase.
Really, CCP should immediately allow one ship scanner activation to get all the sites in system - fancy listed, named and warpable. Why to bother any more?
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Agent Known
Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.04.06 19:13:00 -
[57]
I just find it extremely annoying to spend 10 minutes scanning only to find a wormhole. 
I agree with the suggestions, but please don't make it skill intensive. There's already enough of a time-sink for various skills as it is.
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Blaise Elcadan
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.04.06 22:21:00 -
[58]
I think linking site ID's to skills a great idea. Once you get a site scanned down sufficiently you can positively differentiate it from other hits in the system. The better the appropriate skill the lower the strength % required to positively ID unique results.
Gives a boost to people who took time to develop their exploration skills and makes it a bit easier to track down and separate sites that might be close together.
Evil Overlord Rule #20
Despite its proven stress-relieving effect, I will not indulge in maniacal laughter. |
Manfred Rickenbocker
The Elliance
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Posted - 2009.04.06 22:53:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Agent Known
I just find it extremely annoying to spend 10 minutes scanning only to find a wormhole.
I agree with the suggestions, but please don't make it skill intensive. There's already enough of a time-sink for various skills as it is.
I wish this were a real issue. You must be scanning in highsec, yes? Those wormholes are really really easy to find. Try being stuck in WH space and finding the one wormhole amongst all the gravimetric clutter.
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Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Psihius
Caldari
Atomic Scrapyard
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Posted - 2009.04.07 09:45:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Psihius on 07/04/2009 09:47:35
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
I wish this were a real issue. You must be scanning in highsec, yes? Those wormholes are really really easy to find. Try being stuck in WH space and finding the one wormhole amongst all the gravimetric clutter.
So true...
I had to hunt down a WH in W-space among 40 signatures near the sun. We where scanning with a friend. Spent 20 minutes hunting WH. We got lucky, I managed to pick up right sig to scan down because of 6 probes and relative short distance (4AU). Other time my corp mates spent 2 hours scanning down way out until they found one into 0.0 (well, half of them made to empire in pods, got caught in massive gate camp near low sec). So those who say it's easy - try staying in W-space for a day and then scanning down an exit. You'd wish you had taken a falcon with skilled pilot with you!
P.S. And don't make it easier to scan itself - it's normal, it should be that way. The ability to ignore sigs you already scanned down is normal, just makes you to focus on unknown once's :)
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Allen Ramses
Caldari
Typo Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.07 16:57:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Allen Ramses on 07/04/2009 16:57:16
Personally, I think the filter should only be applied once you have a warpable hit. Once a scanner receives absolute coordinates, probes can be configured to ignore certain ranges at certain angles.
So basically, if I want to filter out all the grav sites, I must first hunt all of them down to a precise location. It gives us a solid map without simply filtering a site at 25%.
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CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Arushia
Nova Labs
Empire Research
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Posted - 2009.04.07 18:47:00 -
[62]
Originally by: RedClaws
Personally I feel that if we indeed get a feature (where once you scan to 100% it'll stay on 100% for the session) , we don't really need the ignore option anymore.
The clutter in WH space should reduce by itself as you scan more complexes at 100% right?
Given how you need to get to 25% to even know the type you're ignoring, and even better strength to know the exact site you're ignoring, I don't see how removing that option will change much.
Also, good astrometrics skills (except maybe Astrometrics 5) are not useless now, the exploration process is much slower with poor skills.
As for Astrometrics 5, I'd like to see tech-2 probes that require astrometrics 5 and give a strength bonus, or some other benefit.
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Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.04.07 19:00:00 -
[63]
I sense that they may have made some changes to signal strengths recently on Test (hard to verify), so perhaps that's the direction they are headed in...
I've had some strange results in the last 2 days.
I've had red dots regularly showing up outside the overlapping area of my 4 probes (pyramid) which seems unusual. This has lead to it being a LOT harder to effectively narrow down my probe range because there's increased risk of getting no results (i.e. going from 8au to 4au around a cluster of hits and then getting no results at that location).
Another person just indicated they were experiencing much more variance in WH signal strength than usual, which matches my recent experience.
___________________________________________
Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
Allen Ramses
Caldari
Typo Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.07 20:19:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Allen Ramses on 07/04/2009 20:21:35
Originally by: Arushia
Given how you need to get to 25% to even know the type you're ignoring, and even better strength to know the exact site you're ignoring, I don't see how removing that option will change much.
You'd be surprised. Drop a 4 AU probe at a star, and from the get-go you might find 3 or 4 sites that are identified as Gravimetric. That's 3 or 4 fewer sites to parse with only one scan of a single probe. Too little effort, IMO.
EDIT: BTW, can we please change the signature type from Unknown to Disturbance?
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CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |
Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.08 14:57:00 -
[65]
Some super-simple things I would like to see that would take some pointless annoyance out of scanning and let me concentrate on the actual work of scanning:
1) Give probes names that sort properly, ie: Probe 008, Probe 009, Probe 010 instead of 8,9,10, which sorts 10,8,9. This would make probe management easier.
2) Have other column sorts (active, for example) subsort by probe number. So if you have probes 1,2,3,4 out, and 2,3 active, sorting by active would list them 2,3,1,4.
3) Permit bookmarking of current PROBE locations. This would allow people to keep track of the initial hits in a system and return to them later. It would also make tracking things down in complex situations a wee bit easier.
4) A positioning option that halves or doubles the distance of the selected probes from their current common center. Maybe too much to ask but most of my probing time is spent doing this with my tetrahedron of probes. I'd prefer a probing system that requires more thinking and less mindless busywork.
World Domination - It's fun for the entire family!
EViE - The iPhone / iPod Touch Skill Training Monitor
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2009.04.08 16:44:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
I'd prefer a probing system that requires more thinking and less mindless busywork.
Me too, but the current system requires no thinking. At all. Not that much "micro" either. For most sites you can just throw your probes in any odd jumble, and even the more difficult sites don't require much in the way of probe placement. Took me about four minutes to scan down a 10/10 with lvl 4 scanning skills and a rigged covops, and I'm certainly not a seasoned scanner. (That was on TQ, btw.) Whatever tedious, mindless work there is to scanning, at least it doesn't take very long.
CCP really dropped the ball when introducing a new system. I say that even though I realize they probably did achieve what they set out to do, which was to make scanning easy enough so that all the tards can do it witin their five minute attention spans. Next step is getting all the people aboard who can only focus for 30seconds....
And all they had to do to come up with something great was to take a look at Sub Command. Include an auto-feature, but tune it so there'd be a real benefit to "manual analysis".
When the remote bookmarking and ignore signal / signal type function hits TQ, I really can't see how anyone could complain about too much work going into scanning. It'll be as easy and quick as tying your shoelaces. Sure there's still a bit of drag the arrow, but not much.
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Desequenced
Gallente
Sentient Biotechnology Invention
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Posted - 2009.04.08 18:13:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Desequenced on 08/04/2009 18:16:53
My 2 cents:
1) Yay, CCP listens: Assembly Hall post
2) Some quick possible suggestions:- Remove the ignore feature
- Buff DSPs a bit
Before you pick up your jaw from the floor, and start the flaming, let me explain my reasoning.
With the current system on Sisi (granted, IÆm @ work, so no hands-on for me), the ignore feature breaks the main thing everyone is whining about: the skill requirement (anyone can ignore anything off the get-go). Now, if the signatures that you narrow down are indeed staying as 100% after you warp to it / remote BM, then removing the ignore feature puts the skills back in it like so:
- A skilled (in terms of SP) player will be able to scan and exclude undesirable sites faster then an unskilled one
- A player that knows how to use the probing system will also be able to scan faster, speed being limited by SP and the currently piloted ship
Finally, if the ignore feature is removed, it would punt the ôe-z modeö (y'know... 10 day old character in a wormhole Radar/Mag kind of thing) straight out of the closest airlock, without doing much to unbalance the game... In my opinion, that is.
Now, for the DSPs: currently, other than the long range, there is little incentive to use them. My suggestion? Give them a small (say... 5% sig strength boost over Core @ same range) yet significant boost. That way, players that want to specialize have the option to increase their ability to do so, and the players who donÆt much care for the increased strength will not feel like theyÆre being left out. YÆknowà kinda like the new T2 salvager/analyzer/codebreaker.
Cheers.
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Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.04.08 20:55:00 -
[68]
There is absolutely no reason to completely remove the "ignore" features. That's taking the gripe way too far, and the feature is pretty awesome. I think it should just be connected to training Astro 5 or scaled by skill.
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Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.04.08 21:04:00 -
[69]
BUG????
It seems that there's a bug in the latest build and we could use more people investigating to nail it down. I've tried to explain this to a few people and they don't seem to get it. I know i'm not the only one seeing this problem, because others on SiSi were talking about it earlier today.
EXAMPLE:
I ran 4 scans in a row with 4 probes in tetrahedron setup at 4au. Didn't move the probes, just rescanned 4 times. 3 of those 4 times I had a single red dot clustered in the same little area towards a corner of the overlap area of the 4 probes. Picture that in your head. 1 red dot result repeated in one corner of the overlap area of 4 probes in pyramid formation.
When i centered the pyramid over that area and rescan (at 4au still) i get no result. None. Not even a red sphere. This implies a deviation larger than 4au.
I've had my targets mysteriously vanish several times since 6.1.86469
In talking about this with somebody in singularity, i realized that i had been seeing cases of split results with only 1 dot. In other words, 2 results with same ID but only red dot for both.
Our hypothesis was that there's a bug relating to the results and it's basically sometimes showing a BAD ghost result. How that can take you out of range i am not sure, but it seems like the root problem is related to bad split results (i.e. 3 probes).
I will test tomorrow or later tonight to try to narrow it down.
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Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.08 21:11:00 -
[70]
Cant imagine for exact, but still description is quite understandable.
Have you tried to get BH attention on the matter?
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Thanks CCP for cu |
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Manfred Rickenbocker
The Elliance
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Posted - 2009.04.08 22:34:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Manfred Rickenbocker on 08/04/2009 22:34:55
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
3) Permit bookmarking of current PROBE locations. This would allow people to keep track of the initial hits in a system and return to them later. It would also make tracking things down in complex situations a wee bit easier.
Hahaha, no! We already have enough problems with deep safe spots, the last thing we need are people warping even further.
Originally by: Nyota Sol
BUG????
It seems that there's a bug in the latest build and we could use more people investigating to nail it down. I've tried to explain this to a few people and they don't seem to get it. I know i'm not the only one seeing this problem, because others on SiSi were talking about it earlier today.
EXAMPLE:
I ran 4 scans in a row with 4 probes in tetrahedron setup at 4au. Didn't move the probes, just rescanned 4 times. 3 of those 4 times I had a single red dot clustered in the same little area towards a corner of the overlap area of the 4 probes. Picture that in your head. 1 red dot result repeated in one corner of the overlap area of 4 probes in pyramid formation.
When i centered the pyramid over that area and rescan (at 4au still) i get no result. None. Not even a red sphere. This implies a deviation larger than 4au.
I've had my targets mysteriously vanish several times since 6.1.86469
In talking about this with somebody in singularity, i realized that i had been seeing cases of split results with only 1 dot. In other words, 2 results with same ID but only red dot for both.
Our hypothesis was that there's a bug relating to the results and it's basically sometimes showing a BAD ghost result. How that can take you out of range i am not sure, but it seems like the root problem is related to bad split results (i.e. 3 probes).
I will test tomorrow or later tonight to try to narrow it down.
I think its an accuracy issue. So, you are barely able to snag a result with three probes, so it generates two results (as it should) and it looks like one of the results is within all four probes scan spheres. After that, you choose the wrong one to look at and lose the signal. Remember, if its within all four probe ranges, you shouldnt be seeing it (I also see this issue sometimes when it throws the second result into the sphere of only one probe, of course thats not the right one!). I think it has to do with the math CCP is using to generate the dots, which, might I say, is completely bonkers. They need to fix this quick.
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Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.04.08 23:15:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
Edited by: Manfred Rickenbocker on 08/04/2009 22:34:55
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
3) Permit bookmarking of current PROBE locations. This would allow people to keep track of the initial hits in a system and return to them later. It would also make tracking things down in complex situations a wee bit easier.
Hahaha, no! We already have enough problems with deep safe spots, the last thing we need are people warping even further.
Seemed to me like he was talking about saving the positions of the probes to re-use them in the same position later, not make an actual bookmark at a probe.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
ollobrains
Caldari State Inc.
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Posted - 2009.04.09 02:57:00 -
[73]
So we are now moving back to scanning grind where it takes hours to find each site. I did expect this would eventually happen
Plus the dynamic spawn system is broken to check this thread
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1044026
so seems 2 things are now bugged scanning and dynamic real time spawn-despawning of all sites empire especially where finished sites remain 4 days later sigs and anamoly sites.
Low sec where the same thing is occouring, wspace seems ok and no idea on 00 at this time
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Captain Vampire
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Posted - 2009.04.09 10:19:00 -
[74]
Originally by: ollobrains
So we are now moving back to scanning grind where it takes hours to find each site. I did expect this would eventually happen
Plus the dynamic spawn system is broken to check this thread
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1044026
so seems 2 things are now bugged scanning and dynamic real time spawn-despawning of all sites empire especially where finished sites remain 4 days later sigs and anamoly sites.
Low sec where the same thing is occouring, wspace seems ok and no idea on 00 at this time
Exactly what has changed, how is scanning slower than the current system?
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Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.04.09 19:53:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
Originally by: Nyota Sol
BUG????
It seems that there's a bug in the latest build and we could use more people investigating to nail it down. I've tried to explain this to a few people and they don't seem to get it. I know i'm not the only one seeing this problem, because others on SiSi were talking about it earlier today.
EXAMPLE:
I ran 4 scans in a row with 4 probes in tetrahedron setup at 4au. Didn't move the probes, just rescanned 4 times. 3 of those 4 times I had a single red dot clustered in the same little area towards a corner of the overlap area of the 4 probes. Picture that in your head. 1 red dot result repeated in one corner of the overlap area of 4 probes in pyramid formation.
When i centered the pyramid over that area and rescan (at 4au still) i get no result. None. Not even a red sphere. This implies a deviation larger than 4au.
I've had my targets mysteriously vanish several times since 6.1.86469
In talking about this with somebody in singularity, i realized that i had been seeing cases of split results with only 1 dot. In other words, 2 results with same ID but only red dot for both.
Our hypothesis was that there's a bug relating to the results and it's basically sometimes showing a BAD ghost result. How that can take you out of range i am not sure, but it seems like the root problem is related to bad split results (i.e. 3 probes).
I will test tomorrow or later tonight to try to narrow it down.
I think its an accuracy issue. So, you are barely able to snag a result with three probes, so it generates two results (as it should) and it looks like one of the results is within all four probes scan spheres. After that, you choose the wrong one to look at and lose the signal. Remember, if its within all four probe ranges, you shouldnt be seeing it (I also see this issue sometimes when it throws the second result into the sphere of only one probe, of course thats not the right one!). I think it has to do with the math CCP is using to generate the dots, which, might I say, is completely bonkers. They need to fix this quick.
If only 3 probes are hitting a target then it should show split results. I'm saying that i think 2 different things started happening on SiSi:
a) when you see split results on a single ID, it's only showing 1 red dot for both results
b) sometimes it's supposed to show split results and it's only showing 1, which occasionally is a ghost result and thus sends players off on wild goose chases
___________________________________________
Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.09 22:49:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
Hahaha, no! We already have enough problems with deep safe spots, the last thing we need are people warping even further.
Seemed to me like he was talking about saving the positions of the probes to re-use them in the same position later, not make an actual bookmark at a probe.
Sorry for not being more clear -- I was talking about a BM-ish thing that you could warp a probe to, not a ship. I agree, arbitrary warpable bookmarks have unintended consequences!
World Domination - It's fun for the entire family!
EViE - The iPhone / iPod Touch Skill Training Monitor
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2009.04.09 22:56:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Tres Farmer on 09/04/2009 23:00:12
My two cents:
=> I don't like the new sphere texture of the probes (for what are the rings in the net?) and also the scanning effect (what's that good for?)
It's missing the adding overlay effect of the actual texture on Tq, which shows where probe scanareas OVERLAP.
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/2426/probesrectangular.jpg
=> I don't like that I either can move ONE probe or ALL probes.. but not a subselection of probes.. like 2!
=> I don't like that the scan results show up with the sites name in a black bubble, ALTHOUGH I deactivated that in the 'solarsystem map'-settings!
=> I don't like that the movement of the probes is bound to such small gizmos, although I have to use them 95% of the time I scan (5% is waiting for the timer). The ARROWS are hard to catch sometimes (especially if you look at the vertical ones where they're flat) and also REDUNDANT (for what reason are there 2 arrows for one direction?)..
Can't there be a BETTER gizmo, like 3 flat rectangles and 3 sticks for each axis we can just grab and that adjusts itself to the visible sides.. ?
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3929/simplegizmo.jpg
I also have no idea, why some people here have problems to keep track of the sig's they want to scan down..
Just start with 32au probes and make a first scan over all celestial objects, this should give you the NUMBER of sigs in the system.
Then use 4 Probes with 32au and arrange them NOT in a tetraeder, but instead in a simple planar rectangle. Its easier and faster to adjust.
Now only thing to do is concentrate on one of the red dots (best is select it in the results list) and keep hunting it. When you got it down 100%, bookmark it, rescale the probes to 32au.. or less, if you remember where some of the hits had been and start again in a rectangular arrangement. You can even SCREEN the core of the solar system with the probes at 8au range.. and with proper skills.
=> The thing I would like to see is a SAFE-Mode for a set of results. I would like to be able to save the first scan, which says me where the sites are roughly at my 32au scan. That way I don't need to rescan the damn system every time.
I don't need ID's.
I can see when a sig is 100% tracked down, to which of the initial dots it belongs to.. for what should I need ID's there? It is also very easy to follow the sig's through the various stages of re-arranging the probes..
[edit spelling error] |
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.09 23:15:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Psihius
... So those who say it's easy - try staying in W-space for a day and then scanning down an exit. You'd wish you had taken a falcon with skilled pilot with you!
When I find a wormhole, I regularly scan down wormholes 2-3 systems deep. It's _not_ a problem finding wormhole in w-space systems.
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Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.04.10 15:24:00 -
[79]
new patch.
we need some testing.
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Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.04.12 21:56:00 -
[80]
86632 patch (bug remains)
3 probes split result gets me single red dot for both results. Distances show differently but it's the same dot. In fact, with 32au probes i was getting split results from 2au to 11au apart but yet still 1 red dot at same location for both results. This is easily replicated.
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Lost in Space - Apocrypha Exploration Resources |
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