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ceaon
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.03 16:51:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Bumbum George
Originally by: Sillas Cov c)force the use of very basic controls to do time sensitive important tasks.
(example why not a simple button for drones attack selected target, or drones dock up now!
here is a perfect example for a person who wants everything handed to him instead of using his own frecking mind.
you know, there ARE buttons for those tasks you named, you (usually) have at least 105 of them on your KEYBOARD.
i know, i know, assigning buttons on your own would be work and would require people to actually do some thinking so freck that, ranting is way more fun!
not all the ppl use a keyboard to play eve when you have 1 keyboard for 3 PC having all control on mouse click is very handy
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TimMc
Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.04.03 17:33:00 -
[122]
I kind of like the huge wall CCP have setup around this game, it took me 3 tries to get into it and only after I joined a player corp did I understand ANYTHING.
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Grek Forto
Malevolent Intentions Dark Solar Empire
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Posted - 2009.04.03 18:34:00 -
[123]
Akita, that was very good post (even though there were bad formatting).
CCP really needs to adress issues their PAYING customers have with their product. They can't simply put things in that they want so they can have their "omgwtfbbq-wonderland MMO" instead of fixing the game.
T3, wtf. Who wanted ship customizing when the UI is crap. Who wanted T3 when pos'es are nightmares to set up. Who wanted T3 when the industry part of the game is pure fail when you compare to what it could be.
Nerf T3 and boost UI!!!!!!!!
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Treelox
Amarr Seppuku Warriors
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Posted - 2009.04.03 18:35:00 -
[124]
OP has it right --
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Zeknichov
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.04.03 18:56:00 -
[125]
Akita T is right on everything but is lacking one thing I truly believe needs addressed. In fact I would consider it the most important thing that needs addressed.
I've recommended numerous amounts of my friends to play EVE and none have actually stuck with the game. Why? Solo and small gang PvP that a new player can actually engage in, and feel useful in, is non existent.
What do 0.0 alliances tell new players to do? Train interceptors so they can suicide tackle for the bigger ships. No new player wants to tackle, especially since the lifespan of a tackling interceptor is about 10 seconds. New people want to pew pew.
It's the same pattern with every single person I've known in real life whose started playing EVE.
Day 1: They start up EVE and ask me about 1000000000000 questions about the game because as Akita T as already stated, useful info is either non existent or impossible to decipher correctly.
By now they've read online guides about the game detailing information about PvP and how they should do missions to earn isk so they can train PvP skills.
Day 2: I ask all day trying to get them to do PvP but they say no because they are doing missions to earn more isk. Besides they tell me, they would be useless in their t1 frigate. No I ensure them, if they equip their frigate to tackle I can use my mids for other things and they won't be useless at all. But alas I don't sound very convincing, they've already made it up in their mind that until they can fly battleships and HACs they are useless.
Day 3: They tell me their great story about how they completed some lvl 2 mission in their Caldari ship. I'm pretty torn at this point, I want them to enjoy the game but I know if they keep mission running it won't be long before they quit the game out of boredom.
I suggest we join the militia. After briefly explaining the militia to them they see absolutely no reason to join it. I mean why would they? A bunch of disadvantages for no advantage except war targets? A new player isn't concerned about who they can shoot at, they are concerned with their skills and isk. The militia is just a way to lose isk.
Day 3: They don't log on. I already know what's happening.
Day 7: I ask them in real life why they aren't playing EVE. They tell me they just got bored. I tell them of course they got bored you didn't PvP why don't you come PvP with me.
Day 8: They log on, I get them to equip a frigate as a tackler and we finally go PvP.
We roam low-sec for an hour but find no targets or targets we can't possibly kill. I bring us into 0.0 to look for a solo target... none to be found and now we're hunted by a large roaming gang. I bring us back to low-sec and suggest we get more people. I grab a bunch of friends of mine and now we're a good sized blob.
Yeah we finally found a target. I tell me friend to warp to me... by the time he figures out how to do this the targets already dead. This continues till he gets bored.
That is a new players experience in a nutshell. He might stick around and do some more missions longer but eventually he will get bored because there is no room for PvP in EVE for new players unless you blob up.
No matter how much you try convincing a new player a t1 frigate with tackling gear is useful, lets face it... They really aren't. A 2 year vet has a better chance of tackling ships in a BS than a new player. They are really just along for the ride when it comes to PvP and people don't like this. People want to be a part of the action.
What do they do? They treat the game as if it's WoW and they aren't max level yet so they grind until they hit lvl 80 which happens to be 1B isk and the ability to fly BS+HACs but by they time this will happen they would have quit out of boredom. I'd rather level in WoW than grind isk in missions all day in EVE, it's a lot more fun and that is the conclusion a new player comes to.
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Zeknichov
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.04.03 19:13:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Zeknichov on 03/04/2009 19:14:01 I ran out of room to say how I felt solving this issue could be done.
Jump Freighters need to go:
Logistics from 0.0 to Empire is far too easy and not dangerous at all with the introduction of jump freighters. Moving things from empire to 0.0 should be a dangerous task.
Mining vs Missions: Mining should be the more profitable choice by far:
Mining requires dedicated skills that are useless for anything except mining to accomplish. Mission running skills ties in with PvP skills and due to that alone mining should be more profitable. The other reason mining should be more profitable is it's far riskier to mine in low-sec than it is to run missions.
Once mining is far greater than mission running in making isk, something needs to be done to bring mineral prices back in line to what they were 6 years ago. Low-sec should be very profitable in comparison to Empire, so much so that people will want to mine in low-sec even with the possibility of being killed.
This will never happen if running empire missions is even close to on par with mining in low-sec. Low-sec mining needs to yield at least double the profits of empire mission running.
Sorry I had a lot more ideas to solve this problem with more details almost a year ago, I just got back into EVE last week so I haven't finished wrapping my head around the economic mechanics. All I know is risk vs reward is completely out of whack in EVE and it needs to be changed. I don't care how many people CCP thinks they will lose if they nerf empire, but it needs to be done. Its needed it for years.
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Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.04.03 20:10:00 -
[127]
Akita, i see you don't reply to considered imput as provided by the excellent post by "kanojo1969"
why is that........
.... Yeah, because he's right. ...... continues overleaf. |
Billy Sastard
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.04.03 20:14:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Zeknichov ...risk vs reward is completely out of whack in EVE and it needs to be changed. I don't care how many people CCP thinks they will lose if they nerf empire, but it needs to be done. Its needed it for years.
I feel Zek makes a good point here. <-------------------------------------------------> "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein |
Xaen
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.04.03 20:45:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Akita T HORRIBLE USER INTERFACE
If you really tried to make it as hard to use as possible, and make it LESS ergonomic with each iteration... you succeeded. Case in point, the new scan probe interface. The new map. The same old corp interface for ages. The science&industry tab. And I could go on and on. You tout an UI design team, but... umm... nothing that REALLY NEEDED an improvement got one, and some of the new stuff that got improved is worse than the stuff it replaces. The only couple of "meh" results (as in, not complete UI design failures) are the fleet and drone UI (which only underwent minor changes)... and the jury is still out on the new fiting screen (it's got better stuff, and it's got worse stuff).
And... yeah... absolutely NO USER CUSTOMISATION ?!?
A man after my own heart.
Also, you're wasting your breath.
Two solid years of trying on my part accomplished absolutely nothing. Despite the indisputable fact that it is one of two facets of the game that affects 100.000% of players that log in.
CCP just does not care enough for it to matter. - Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.04.03 20:53:00 -
[130]
Originally by: kanojo1969
But all-in-all, the UI has much less to do with the success of the product than you probably think.
A good UI is no guarantee of a success. But a truly craptastic UI is a guarantee of failure.
PDAs did not catch on until the Pilot because of ergonomic factors. Once it was easier to use one than a notepad everyone and their dog got one. Do you honestly think $300 hard drive based music players would have become popular if took 30 seconds of fiddling with UI to play a song?
Horrible UIs come about because they're more likely to be designed by a coder on a deadline than not. Heck, I'd code a UI which punches the user in the nose evey few minutes it meant I deliver the feature I'm on the hook for earlier.
But once the prototype is in the users' hands it's time to put some polish on the product. That's how you grow your user base beyond a niche of early adopters willing to "settle."
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.03 21:04:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Brainless Bimbo Akita, i see you don't reply to considered imput as provided by the excellent post by "kanojo1969" why is that........ .... Yeah, because he's right.
Yeah, he's right in that it WOULD be a big effort which for EXISTING users that really got used to the way the interface might not be a HUGE benefit. But he's wrong that it would be pointless - NEW users, the kind CCP is trying to attract, they WOULD greatly benefit from a better UI.
Sure, he's right that a total interface rewrite to allow user customisation might also be a huge effort. But he's wrong about the benefits again. You have EVE players that have created pretty complex programs for specific tasks (I hope I don't have to remind you of EFT, EVE-Mon, EVE HQ, countless wallet and invention/manufacture managers, killboards, rudimentary banking software and so on and so forth), which, while not the pinnacle of UI design themselves, should mean that more likely than not, SOME EVE players, if given the chance, might actually accomplish astonishing features.
He's not OPPOSED to anything I said, quite the contrary, as a self-proclaimed UI expert he says he could speak volumes about just how bad the UI really is compared to what it could be - the only thing we don't agree on is just how beneficial (work needed vs results obtained) some UI revamps would be, and the focus of those revamps. And then he again agrees with me that consistency is paramount.
So... yeah... I didn't DIRECTLY answer to anything he said because there wasn't much disagreement to begin with.
_ Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
FeralShadow
Tactical Gamer Universe LTD
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Posted - 2009.04.03 21:07:00 -
[132]
Well, interestingly enough, we've all been here and done without even the welcome pages. and we're doin just fine! This isn't "easy mode" so stop whining please :) If we can do it, and I KNOW some of the fellas here have mental disabilities (just for lols), then you can. Buck up.
-Feral _______________________________________________ "If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura -CDS Now Taking Contracts-
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elohllird
Destructive Influence KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.03 21:33:00 -
[133]
I have to agree with Akita the ui is a bit poo.
But Akita you need to chill abit, there is other things to rage about
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Astigmatic
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Posted - 2009.04.03 21:47:00 -
[134]
Quote: But once the prototype is in the users' hands it's time to put some polish on the product. That's how you grow your user base beyond a niche of early adopters willing to "settle."
This sums up some of the motives behind the change vs no change posts really well. Some (not all) vets may view change as "simplification" and with that a fear of dumbing down. However from what I see Akita T is merely trying to suggest that the UI is optimised. Made better, more informative and more intuitive. There is nothing wrong in that at all. I believe that a UI reiteration is due anyway according to some dev posts so the right course of action is to seize the moment and suggest positive improvements. It will eventually happen, don't duck your head in the sand.
Another poster suggested that 0.0 logistics be made less risk free by deleting Jump Freighters. As my alt is a JF pilot you would expect me to object to this. I don't.
Why? It's because the jump system discourages pvp. Prior to the mass use of jumping, convoys of ships had to escort goods to 0.0. This led to organised escorting for some corps. More use for lower sp pilots to assist as tacklers and ewar or simply cannon fodder or chaff dealers. Yes, it was a pain to transport goods and took organisation, but is that a bad thing? Nowadays, it's almost trivial to jump tons of cargo to war torn areas. Is that seriously a good thing?
Yes, we still have carriers and so on. But maybe that needs to be looked at too. This view will undoubtedly be unpopular, however it is a view and that's all. There are pro's and cons to this as with anything else. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.03 22:52:00 -
[135]
Originally by: FeralShadow Well, interestingly enough, we've all been here and done without even the welcome pages. and we're doin just fine!
And how many more people YOU know that might have ended up loving EVE left simply because they were too frustrated by all those "little things" this thread talks about ? How many times have you had to explain to a potential new EVE player that just started his trial the basics of just about everything, because the tutorial and the other information available to him from the start were "just a tad bit harder than average" to get to in a timely fashion ? And how many of them gave up saying "nah, thanks but no thanks, that's too much to bother reading and understanding before doing anything that even remotely resembles fun" ?
And by the way, EVE also needs stupid (but enthusiastic) people. Stupid people are those that you can manipulate into doing all the things you need done, but can't be bothered to
_ Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2009.04.03 23:27:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Zeknichov That is an Unreal Tournament players experience in a nutshell.
Fixed. While I agree with your suggested changes, especially re:mining, your example new player experience is based around someone who will probably never enjoy EVE. No amount of changes will make this an instant gratification mindless PvP game. Though in fairness FW does come as close as EVE ever could.
Originally by: Akita T "nah, thanks but no thanks, that's too much to bother reading and understanding before doing anything that even remotely resembles fun"
This is not the game for anyone who would ever say that. As with Zek, you are using the exmaple of someone who is looking for instant gratification over a deeper and more satisfying experience. Sure, the UI will scare these people away, as will just about every aspect of the game. A subtle straw man.
Perhaps you are right that EVE could use more 'stupid' people, but I'd rather CCP fix the issues that (significantly) affect those of us already here, the niche that the game is supposedly aimed at, before attempting to lower to bar for entry.
As for your questions, of 2 people I know in / have introduced to EVE, I have had to explain the basics to 0 (0%) of them, and 0 (0%) of them gave up. Also 0 (0%) ever mentioned the UI. -
DesuSigs |
Rufis Dangerfield
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Posted - 2009.04.04 00:27:00 -
[137]
Given the apparent importance of storylines when it suits CCP, and the longevity of the game, a general policy of 'nerfing by evolution of technology' rather than 'by nerf bat de-evolution to specific ships/modules while you're sleeping' would be nice.
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Haalanii
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Posted - 2009.04.04 00:36:00 -
[138]
CCP's biggest crime as a game company is that it stubbornly refuses to allow UI mods.
Modding has enhanced the play experience of every MMO I've subscribed to and the most prominent example in this thread, WoW, has plenty of examples of inaccurate tool-tips and clunky UI features that were made infinitely better by the tireless efforts of players. One example being the fact that the default UI does not (or at least did not for a long time) figure the impact of a spell-caster's equipment in the damage a spell will actually do (much like how Eve lacks measures of DPS, tanking and cap-stability).
Eve forces you to use EFT to plan out a fitting properly or measure DPS, tanking and cap stability. In WoW, there are countless mods that will replace in-game tool-tips with accurate information. There is much less need to tab out of the game and run a 3rd party program just to get a general feel for the stats of your ship. This is all thanks to the player-run mod community. Why on earth are we stifling something like that in OUR game?
Some examples...
WoW's Default UI (ok it looks like it has "fu-bar" running but more-or-less untouched):
Wow is a 3-D game but generally the combat is on a plane flat enough to see what's around you without an overview. That said, the basic idea of "target this" "damage numbers appear" "move around" "teleport/jump/warp when leaving" has to be managed visually. The default WoW UI does a good job of displaying damage dealt to and by your character. The Eve UI puts these numbers in a box at the middle of your screen and they often scroll by so fast you must use the awkward combat log (or even text file game logs) to see what transpired in detail. So, how does modding improve this?
Goodle image search result for a modded WoW UI
^ Look at how clean the ui is with modded windows. He has tons of health bars, meters and timing mods running with no clutter. Nearly every window, bar and button has been improved. It's not just aesthetic, it adds functionality.
Want to mod a specific window or tool in detail? Here's an example of a combat log that has been modded with colored text and simple formatting to allow easy comprehension during combat. Why can't we have the freedom to do this in Eve?
How about mods that track performance in a fight as a whole AND by damage dealt to specific opponents? WTB this mod for fleet battles in Eve.
And then, of course, there are purely aesthetic changes (this one is very appropriate for wow)
The possibilities are endless when you allow people to use their creativity for positive changes to the UI. I think that market data evaluation could be made 1000x easier by a mod similar to WoW's auctioneer as an example.
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Easley Thames
The Maverick Navy PuPPet MasTers
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Posted - 2009.04.04 00:41:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Easley Thames on 04/04/2009 00:42:25 Akita T is correct on all accounts and I really find it hilarious that some of you think that making the new player experience more informative / useful is a bad thing. I taught myself a ton by reading OUT OF GAME and watching videos OUT OF GAME and essentially would never have learned much without being a hardcore gamer with tons of free time (at that point anyway).
Regardless of the NPE, the UI is bad for all of us. It just is. I support modding as I've said before and would love to hear CCP explain why they are so adamantly opposed to it.
EDIT - You posters who say "the game is good stop crying" are missing the point. We love the game and that's why we care at all. I'd like to see my game improve.
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Nerogk Shorn
Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy SCUM.
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Posted - 2009.04.04 01:13:00 -
[140]
Hey, Akita T. I'm not saying that your issues have been brought up dozens of times before, but i'd wager a bet they have. I will say that, though i love EVE, you are exactly right in your analysis. However, using that tone expressing your disgust at how CCP functions probably will get you nowhere. You totally deserve to use that tone, because anyone who sees half of what is happening should be as frustrated as you are. It's just that when CCP are straight up confronted by those evil truths, they stubbornly recede back into their shells and refuse to acknowledge the existence of this thread, as well as the problems you mentioned.
BTW: About two weeks ago I started playing Master of Orion II again. Working my way up to Impossible. Finally beat a Huge map on impossible after about the third try AND beat the highest score. /me flexes It truly is a fantastic game.
Have you ever played Star Trek: Birth of the Federation, which is also made by Microprose and is remarkably similar to MOOII. They sadly got rid of the specific researching and ship design, but made up for it in other parts (like come on Star Trek theme anyone??)
The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.04 04:33:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Nerogk Shorn Have you ever played Star Trek: Birth of the Federation
Yeah, but it was not the same, even if somewhat enjoyable... way too simplified (especially the research), and the part I loved most about MoO2 (the ship-to-ship combat) was quite pathetic in BotF.
Originally by: Nerogk Shorn It's just that when CCP are straight up confronted by those evil truths, they stubbornly recede back into their shells and refuse to acknowledge the existence of this thread, as well as the problems you mentioned.
Well, if you ask nicely they don't do much... if you ask the CSM, you don't get enough support because other things are more obvious to the general public... so what's there left to do other than verbally challenge CCP in here, however futile it might seem ?
_ The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Ris Dnalor
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.04.04 05:12:00 -
[142]
because "learning how to play" is the only real challenge in eve. If they gave out a rule-book it'd be like a cheat-code. Nothing interesting left to do... or not much at least.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.04 05:17:00 -
[143]
Edited by: Akita T on 04/04/2009 05:17:34
Originally by: Ris Dnalor because "learning how to play" is the only real challenge in eve
/facepalm
[sarcasm] Seriously ? That's the ONLY challenge in EVE ? Everybody might as well stop playing then ! And here I though the challenge was supposed to be in competing against other players, not against the user interface. [/sarcasm]
_ The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.04.04 06:28:00 -
[144]
Have those of you arguing with Akita tried the industrial side of eve?
It's an RSI-causing clickfest. My forearms are bigger than Popeye's from all the freaking "click click right click click click type click click" x 10 x 9 alts I do every day. And that's just to start production jobs.
This isn't challenging or rewarding. It's bad UI for bad UI's sake. Yes if all you do is gate camp the UI isn't that bad -- control click and F1. The rest of the game is unapproachable.
If CCP designed a car you'd have to pump the gas once per MPH you wanted to accelerate. There would be no brakes, you would "stop" by driving around in a small circle. And instead of a windshield you'd have a periscope. The speedometer, tachometer and fuel gauge would look identical and switch places randomly. The speedometer wouldn't display your actual speed, it would display something like "1% of maximum velocity." Where 1% was actually 10%, and maximum velocity could only be determined through experimentation.
And they'd sell about 5 cars a year to masochists pretending to be "hardcore."
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F'nog
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. I.C.C Industrial Drive Yards
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Posted - 2009.04.04 07:47:00 -
[145]
I can't believe that anyone here could be arguing some of Akita's points.
Let's just look at numbers.
AM ammo (as just one example among countless ) on the old Item Database listed Range Modifier as +50% when it is really -50%. How was this not changed?
Or maybe some of you remember when MSMs were introduced and they listed a 160% bonus to yield when it was really 1.6 times. This is just basic math we're talking about, but CCP apparently couldn't be arsed to list it correctly.
I don't expect miracles in UI design or coding, but such simple foundations for the game should be expressed clearly, especially because it's so easy to do it correctly. Yet they don't, and haven't corrected it for years. That could really turn off players to the game, and probably has.
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
Originally by: Chribba Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero! /me bows
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Kowaii Rabbit
o1nk
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Posted - 2009.04.04 08:21:00 -
[146]
Originally by: F'nog I can't believe that anyone here could be arguing some of Akita's points.
Let's just look at numbers.
AM ammo (as just one example among countless ) on the old Item Database listed Range Modifier as +50% when it is really -50%. How was this not changed?
Or maybe some of you remember when MSMs were introduced and they listed a 160% bonus to yield when it was really 1.6 times. This is just basic math we're talking about, but CCP apparently couldn't be arsed to list it correctly.
I'm still trying to work out the Covert Ops Skill Bonus description for the Stealth Bomber: multiplies the cloaked velocity by 125% per level. http://www.ezy-english.com/ |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.04 14:50:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Clair Bear car analogy
funny because it's almost completely true... _ The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Neo Omni
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.04 21:45:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Jennifer Celeste anyone else find it ironic that the OP is still PAYING to play?
It's not ironic. It's just that the OP see all the lost potential in this game. What other game out there comes close to EVE? None.
Yet, EVE is so pew-pew centered, that alot of the "soft" elements of the game are subpar.
CCP focuses on the future with ambulation and expansion, but could someone please focus on the small trivial things about the game that we are forced to overlook because "EVE is such a great game?"
EVE is NOT noob friendly. It's survival of the fittest (as my fifth alt has learned after a few months of play).
There really has to be a very detailed introduction to all elements of game play. CCP sanctioned scams (ie undeliverable courier contracts) also need to be documented so new players know what is going on.
I'm with the OP on this one. EVE can be so much more...thus the frustration, and the hope while I continue to pay my sub every month.
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Haalanii
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Posted - 2009.04.05 00:38:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Clair Bear
If CCP designed a car you'd have to pump the gas once per MPH you wanted to accelerate. There would be no brakes, you would "stop" by driving around in a small circle. And instead of a windshield you'd have a periscope. The speedometer, tachometer and fuel gauge would look identical and switch places randomly. The speedometer wouldn't display your actual speed, it would display something like "1% of maximum velocity." Where 1% was actually 10%, and maximum velocity could only be determined through experimentation.
And they'd sell about 5 cars a year to masochists pretending to be "hardcore."
Lol this is so true!
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2009.04.05 02:34:00 -
[150]
I love how Akita T always posts in such constructive and positive ways. Never with a hint of condescension or arrogance.
Also, whilst I agree with the whole 'point out what needs to be fixed rather than be nothing but a fanboi' approach, but can you please presnet to us forum *****s your entire digital and online gaming development portfolio?
kthxbye ----------
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