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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2009.04.16 03:15:00 -
[211]
Edited by: Katarlia Simov on 16/04/2009 03:15:51
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Katarlia Simov All the things about eve that you say suck, most people just learn to live with.
It goes from "slightly annoying but new" to "slightly annoying but I can manage", then it becomes "I barely even notice" for a good while, but eventually reaches the point of "how the hell have I put up with this crap for so long?"
But its not crap. It's just not perfectly streamlined and requires some painful learning experiences.
Lets get analogous...
Driving: Its a clunky, unintuitive, borderline infuriating process to learn how to do it. But once you pass the test, you barely even think about it. And even some of the worst drivers in the world manage to never have an accident.
Now, maybe you think that the controls to your personally designed hover-tank are pretty cool. And im sure they are. Since it's all GPS guided and automatic transmission and so on and so forth. In fact, you barely have any control over it at all. All you do is press go and it goes.
Now, thats fine for you.
However, clunky unintuitive design is why a lot of people enjoy the process of driving. It's certainly why a lot of people drive manuals. They like the feel that even if its through some ******ed contrivance that should have been taken off the road ten years ago, they are in control. They know what every knob does. When it rains, THEY put the wipers on. When its dark THEY put the lights on.
In the modern era, totally un-needed. But totally comfortable.
Do you see what I'm getting at yet ?
Something is not a flaw if it works. If things don't work as intended, its a bug. Bug report it. If they just make you do things in a weird way, then just learn how it works. You ever had a car with weird clutch ? Same thing.
When you drive someone else's car, you go 'man I should fix that' but somehow you don't because it's your car, and even if its not exactly the same as everyone elses, its yours and its not a problem for you.
You and me, and indeed everyone else, puts up with these things because there's nothing else. Its either use the tools we have, or ignore that aspect of the game.
You can complain as much as you like, but I think you're making a big deal over nothing of any great importance. Use it, or don't. There is no aspect of putting up with anything. You dont have an alternative. So just shut the hell up and play the game. Or don't as the case may be.
Just saying 'I don't like this' doesn't contribute to game development. If you really want to see change, then start compiling your own UI improvement programe, talk to someone in the CSM and put it on the agenda.
Complaining about something that most people dont have any strong feelings about mostly means your doomed to failure.
Edit for Spelling et al.
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Arkyk
Viper Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.16 05:15:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov Use it, or don't.
The third option, of course, is bringing up the issues to the people who are in a position to fix them. Hence, the thread . . .
I still stand by my earlier suggestion that someone who is fed up with the UI (and much more talented than me at photoshop) should create some sample screens of how they'd like it to be. That would definitely be the most constructive thing a player could do.
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Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.04.16 06:02:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Arkyk . . .
I still stand by my earlier suggestion that someone who is fed up with the UI (and much more talented than me at photoshop) should create some sample screens of how they'd like it to be. That would definitely be the most constructive thing a player could do.
It's not the eye candy -- it's the needless clicks, cascading menus placing never used, dangerous choices right next to ones clicked millions of times a day. It's about lack of functionality sometimes worked around by completely unintuitive use of seemingly unrelated functions. It's misleading and lacking information which can only be rectified by doing immersion-breaking google searches out of game.
I could care less if the UI looks like it's an overlay drawn with crayon by a 3 year old and scanned at 100 dpi. If it looked like ass but reduced my daily repetitive clickfest from several thousand clicks to a few dozen I'd have a spontaneous orgasm or sixty. And reactivate several alt accounts.
The best illustration of bad UI design is the forum navbar. The new version is prettier, but far slower and less functional even after several iterations.
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2009.04.16 13:46:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Clair Bear
Originally by: Arkyk . . .
I still stand by my earlier suggestion that someone who is fed up with the UI (and much more talented than me at photoshop) should create some sample screens of how they'd like it to be. That would definitely be the most constructive thing a player could do.
It's not the eye candy -- it's the needless clicks, cascading menus placing never used, dangerous choices right next to ones clicked millions of times a day. It's about lack of functionality sometimes worked around by completely unintuitive use of seemingly unrelated functions. It's misleading and lacking information which can only be rectified by doing immersion-breaking google searches out of game.
I could care less if the UI looks like it's an overlay drawn with crayon by a 3 year old and scanned at 100 dpi. If it looked like ass but reduced my daily repetitive clickfest from several thousand clicks to a few dozen I'd have a spontaneous orgasm or sixty. And reactivate several alt accounts.
The best illustration of bad UI design is the forum navbar. The new version is prettier, but far slower and less functional even after several iterations.
I severely doubt that any degree of UI streamlining would drop your click quota from thousands to dozens.
The russian doll of menus isn't ideal, but for the most part its does its job. If the most valid complaint you have about the UI is that you have to click more than in other games, then you are definitely splitting hairs.
Every game has some aspect of repetitive SOMETHING, just sadly because we're grown ups in eve we're expected to do that ourselves rather than one button macros that we can spam all day while we watch our balance go up.
This kind of thread is all about whining, not about getting things done. If you wanted something done then it'd be in the GDF under 'UI Improvemnt Ideas Thread' with a lot of work done by the OP to work out the issues he see's with it.
Simply *****ing in the forums will not get anything done. Especially when you are just saying 'I WANT A NEW ONE' like some five year old who's bored of his current toy.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.16 14:19:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov This kind of thread is all about whining, not about getting things done. If you wanted something done then it'd be in the GDF under 'UI Improvemnt Ideas Thread' with a lot of work done by the OP to work out the issues he see's with it.
You mean something like THIS ? Look at the date.
_ The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Grim
Amarr Tears of Redemption Avarice.
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Posted - 2009.04.16 14:20:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Akita T
Yeah, the "welcome pages" are somewhat nice... FOR A VETERAN... but they're nowhere near enough - and most people just SKIP reading them because they're ANNOYING. You don't shove all that information in the face of a person the moment he's trying to do something trivial, you should have that information available in bits and pieces as tooltips on the things that matter, and all of it available as "show me more info" simewhere in the corner - kind of a showinfo button, but for the screen you're in.
And using non-standardized ways to represent something... seriously, when you see "0.1%" (damage rate on mining crystals) you start wondering... is that really 0.1%, or is it actually 10% ? Or maybe it's 1% ? (note: it's actually 10%). Or what about "capacitor recharge rate bonus -20%" (hint : it's -20% capacitor recharge TIME, which translates into +25% capacitor recharge rate).
Welcome to the learning curve of eve. Get used to it or GTFO! -- Death By Titan :( |
Arkyk
Viper Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.16 14:29:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Clair Bear It's not the eye candy
Never said it was. =)
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Vaneshi SnowCrash
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Posted - 2009.04.16 14:57:00 -
[218]
MMO's are full of grind and spiders. If you like this MMO's version of that excellent.
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AkRoYeR
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.04.16 14:59:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Grim
Originally by: Akita T
Yeah, the "welcome pages" are somewhat nice... FOR A VETERAN... but they're nowhere near enough - and most people just SKIP reading them because they're ANNOYING. You don't shove all that information in the face of a person the moment he's trying to do something trivial, you should have that information available in bits and pieces as tooltips on the things that matter, and all of it available as "show me more info" simewhere in the corner - kind of a showinfo button, but for the screen you're in.
And using non-standardized ways to represent something... seriously, when you see "0.1%" (damage rate on mining crystals) you start wondering... is that really 0.1%, or is it actually 10% ? Or maybe it's 1% ? (note: it's actually 10%). Or what about "capacitor recharge rate bonus -20%" (hint : it's -20% capacitor recharge TIME, which translates into +25% capacitor recharge rate).
Welcome to the learning curve of eve. Get used to it or GTFO!
This!
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.16 15:05:00 -
[220]
That's not a learning path, that's bloody ninjas with caltrops on the side of the road.
_ The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
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Thetys
Caldari Breed of Malakka
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Posted - 2009.04.16 15:30:00 -
[221]
oh another eve-is-bs-thread, rare enough! if you dun like, dun play, it's that easy. when you leave make sure you contract your stuff to my person.
eve is hard to learn and hard to play. if you want brainless entertainment please leave us and play something different. ------ |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.16 15:41:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Thetys oh another eve-is-bs-thread
Might I perhaps suggest reading lessons for you then, dear madam ?
_ The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
ohoh7
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Posted - 2009.04.16 15:55:00 -
[223]
First off, why do people take this much time out of their life to complain about all the bad things of Eve. Just play the game or do what mom used to say....If you don't have anything good to say don't say it at all.
I just joined the game as a trial member and just upgraded today and i have to say yes it is a hard learning curve but imagine how many little kids that frustrates and makes them leave. But i enjoy having to discover everything slowly, i felt so overwhelmed by everything on first log in but that's what i like i want to learn everything.
Nothings perfect but i think you may find that your things that you like might outweigh the things you don't, it's the things you don't are the easier ones to pick apart. And you're still playing right? They must be doing something right
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Arkyk
Viper Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.16 16:02:00 -
[224]
Originally by: ohoh7 Just play the game or do what mom used to say....If you don't have anything good to say don't say it at all.
If that was the case, nothing would ever change.
Quote: And you're still playing right? They must be doing something right
Well, yes. That has been stated time and time again.
Just because we like the game doesn't mean we have to turn a blind eye to its shortcomings. The "love everything about it or leave" sentiment is a false dichotomy, and completely unrealistic. Under that logic, no one would ever file a bug report . . .
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.16 20:10:00 -
[225]
Originally by: ohoh7 And you're still playing right? They must be doing something right
Oh, look, what a surprise, said so the first thing in the OP ! I think you should take reading lessons too.
_ The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.20 14:53:00 -
[226]
Edited by: Akita T on 20/04/2009 14:56:28
Oh and have I mentioned a tendency of "breaking stuff by fixing things that aren't broken" too ?
And let's not even say anything about the "I told you so" moment with regards to the "EVE box" (seriously, NOT including the largest patch to date on the boxed DVD, forcing people who probably want to buy the box to AVOID large downloads... ouch. You could have either delayed the box launch a couple of weeks OR you could have at least included a PARTIAL patch with most of the graphic assets or whatnot, and only force people to make a much smaller incremental patch from the boxed set version.... but no...)
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.27 07:23:00 -
[227]
And another honourable mention goes to the "we can't be arsed to calculate SP/hour averages for people passing the 1.6m SP barrier nor make checks if the skill is prematurely interrupted, so whenever you START a skill that would finish past 1.6, you train it all at regular speed instead of partially at double speed, partially at normal speed". LAZY ! Not to mention unfair.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.04.27 07:50:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 20/04/2009 15:01:23
Oh and have I mentioned a tendency of "breaking stuff by fixing things that aren't broken" too ? And let's not even dwell too much on the "I told you so" moments with regards to the "EVE box". On second thought, let's.
Seriously, NOT including the largest patch to date on the boxed DVD, forcing people who probably want to buy the box to AVOID large downloads to make a huge download... ouch. You could have either delayed the box launch a couple of weeks OR you could have at least included a PARTIAL patch with most of the graphic assets or whatnot, and only force people to make a much smaller incremental patch from the boxed set version.... but no...
Guess how much the box sells in some stores ? Cheaper than a 60-day GTC, and there's a 60-day GTC included inside the box ! Tells you something about its "success", doesn't it ?
It's been very successful at getting me some cheap gametime!
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Komen
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.04.27 08:21:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Noix Arikani I do agree with Akita on this one and she is probably the most intelligent person on these forumns IMO but its a doble edged sword, if you make the UI too easy then yes WoWification sets in and there are only minor quirks that need to be worked out in the UI, not complete re-hauls that you seem to be advocating
You are confusing having a clear and informative and useful UI with dumbed down gameplay. I do not want Eve dumbed down; I do want a better UI.
I like the new fitting screen, with it's effective HP calc, resists that change when I activate hardeners, and so on. However, it's got problems, like the cargo bay is represented by a little can, so you have to know that the little can means cargo. Why in hell they could not simply say 'cargo bay - click to open' and then list the cubic available/total is beyond me. OR, have the little can icon AND say 'cargo bay'.
The UI isn't even so much bad as it's just obscure. If it were better LABELED it'd be an improvement.
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Angeligue Tuttle
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Posted - 2009.04.27 09:02:00 -
[230]
I didn't enjoy slugging through the opening post so I did go through all the replies either. Maybe someone has already pointed this out, but if EVE sucks why continue to play Akita?
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SpaceSavage
tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.04.27 09:13:00 -
[231]
Imo... EVE is *too* noob friendly, and no longer the hard core black and white pvp game. _______________
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Onus Mian
Amarr Kingfisher Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.27 09:40:00 -
[232]
I'm still learning new stuff about Eve whereas in other MMO's I've played you can usually get the hand of everything in next to no time. ----
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? - Douglas Adams
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.04.27 09:47:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Onus Mian I'm still learning new stuff about Eve whereas in other MMO's I've played you can usually get the hand of everything in next to no time.
Likewise. Which is one of the main reasons I'm still playing.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.27 10:34:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Angeligue Tuttle I didn't enjoy slugging through the opening post so I did go through all the replies either. Maybe someone has already pointed this out, but if EVE sucks why continue to play Akita?
You didn't even try reading the first couple of phrases either, it seems.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol Total Comfort
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Posted - 2009.04.27 10:53:00 -
[235]
I, like Crumplecorn appreciate the EVE UI.
For some reason many people have a problem with it, but listen to this:
EVE was the first MMO I ever played. EVER. I learned in about a week what the basics were and took off from there.
However, I am noting that a great many people seem to have an issue with the EVE UI. Whether or not it be cumbersome is one thing, but functional it is. There are minor quirks here and there and when they rear their ugly heads in a way that breaks something, we complain about it and it gets fixed (e.g., right clicking scanner).
That said, I believe that the EVE UI is just fine. I have lived with it and have appreciated its niceties now for years and I don't wish for it to make any sweeping or drastic changes.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.27 10:59:00 -
[236]
For self-use, it's passable if you're a certain type of person that can get used to just about anything eventually. For SOME self-use tasks, it's a pain in the ass (like, say, mass blueprint lockdown issues, but that's just one example). For teaching newbies how to properly use it in a short time, it's exasperating.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol Total Comfort
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Posted - 2009.04.27 11:10:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Akita T For self-use, it's passable if you're a certain type of person that can get used to just about anything eventually. For SOME self-use tasks, it's a pain in the ass (like, say, mass blueprint lockdown issues, but that's just one example). For teaching newbies how to properly use it in a short time, it's exasperating.
Akita, I'm a CEO of a corporation who also does lockdowns and I have probably moved some 5 or 6 times since I started Aduro.
I don't have these mysterious blueprint lock/unlock issues, so don't try to catch me there.
Additionally, they give us cool tools for setting mass roles through a corporation. Click on the role, specify which look / take roles they get ad nausem, then click them all in the corporation member tab for each member you want to have those roles.
The corp interface is fine.
Additionally, it seems to me that after reading through some of the comments in this thread that people seem to have this idea that they are being thrown into a game with people who have never played EVE before. I mean, if someone is asking in say, the help channel "where is the cargo hold on my ship" I'm pretty sure that all 800 people are not going to know. Learning by doing is a great way to play EVE, and it is how I learned. It was hard, admittedly, but I did the tutorial and it was both exciting and fun.
I will admit, I quit for a solid day after my first day of tutorial, not understanding how to move around in space very well. I was discouraged. But I wanted to play this game and because of my determination I got back into the game and jumped into a help channel and asked hundreds of questions, made friends and had a really good time. I even formed my first corporation with friends out of the rookie help channel ingame.
You [Akita] are playing devil's advocate for no reason other than to generate noise. And you cover it with a "I love this game so I'm not going to quit, this is just a rant," which it is. There's nothing wrong with the UI, except for the recent moronic implementations they're making such as a solid blue bar instead of the traditional UI bar. I actually feel like the quality EVE UI is being taken away from us, and we are receiving a streamlined 'popular' version of EVE, rather than the EVE I started playing. Sure, I can adapt to change and deal with it. Yes, I will complain about it when it upsets me. But because I understand the UI and was given a brain to think with and fingers to ask questions with, I LEARNED HOW TO PLAY EVE. It's not a miracle.
I am against streamlining the interface to have it congested with text. Symbols and icons are very appropriate. After playing for a week, I learned what the Market was, what the Fitting window was, the difference between the Insurance and Repair shop (which I had problems with initially) and more.
Give it a rest.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.27 11:33:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa [...]I am against streamlining the interface to have it congested with text[...]
Since when does "streamlining" imply "swamp it with text", or am I misunderstanding something here.
Anyway, you say you have moved your operations several times, and you have never had the lockdown glitch. Well, lucky you, I guess. But even WITHOUT that particular glitch, manually selecting each and every blueprint if you have a lot of them can't be something you ENJOY doing, or are you actually implying you do ? What harm would come from "streamlining" the process by having something as simple as, oh, I don't know, the ability to lockdown or unlock multiple (even all) blueprints in a single vote and then a single action ?
Also, how often have you been to the help channel lately ? It's like swimming upstream, with a parachute tied to each of your joints. More often that not, genuine newcomers just end up ignoring that channel in frustration due to the signal-to-noise ratio, and try it either in local or maybe attempt to have a chat with a friendly. Sure, we like to THINK that we're oh, so great for figuring the interface out all by ourselves with some help at some critical steps, but truth be told, the IDEA that CCP wants to have the game appeal to a larger audience while at least ATTEMPTING to not dumb it down clashes heavily with the lack of ergonomy, lack of intuitivity and lack of comprehensive default keypresses and various minor settings. There's no merit in stoically wading through some less-than-decent interface until you get used to it, the main difficulties in EVE should come from the game environment to some degree, but mostly from OTHER PLAYERS, while the interface of the game should be as unobtrusive, fully functional and easy to use as humanly possible.
I'll give you one example of something you probably don't mind, something I learned not to mind and compensate for "by heart", but something that bothers a lot of new people : the "orbit at" setting. Why the hell can't the ship orbit AT the distance you set rather than some (at first seemingly) arbitrary distance FARTHER away ? The ship speed already decreases below top speed automatically anyway when you set orbit and you go "too fast to turn", so why not decrease it enough so you actually orbit at the distance you have set rather than having to either manually cut top speed down more or set a tighter orbit which you end up guesstimating ? Yeah, sure, if you're "hardcore" enough, you'll be manually piloting by double-clicking in space for each direction change, but what's the point of having some option that only "SORT OF" works ? Also, why not have an "approach" button that, you know, actually APPROACHES something as opposed to what the button does most of the time, namely "ram that target !" ? Or, what about the nice windows that are supposedly finally fixed in some patch, then restart jumping all around the freaking screen ? How about the "target zone" for dragging away the LOCKED TARGETS "box" (an invisible box, mind you) away from its default location ? It's like whoever designed it tried to make it as obscure as possible and hide it in the default version somewhere where you can't see it. And that's just some minor nitpicks I am sure I haven't even mentioned yet in this thread. But there are literally HUNDREDS of such nitpicks scatered all across the user interface. ...and I use the words "User Interface" lightly, it's actually a mix of user interface, cumbersome game design choices, rushed coding and god knows what else.
So, no, I can't "give it a rest". I'll give it a rest when the stock UI is a lot, LOT better... or when CCP releases the UI for player-side modding.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.01 10:32:00 -
[239]
Cat got your tongue Siig ?
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Kale Kold
Caldari Mortis Angelus The Church.
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Posted - 2009.05.01 10:46:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Akita T HORRIBLE USER INTERFACE You tout an UI design team, but... umm... nothing that REALLY NEEDED an improvement got one, and some of the new stuff that got improved is worse than the stuff it replaces. The only couple of "meh" results (as in, not complete UI design failures) are the fleet and drone UI (which only underwent minor changes)... and the jury is still out on the new fiting screen (it's got better stuff, and it's got worse stuff).
Totally and utterly agree on all these points!!!!!
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