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Some reasons EVE sucks *almost* as much as all other MMOs

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Sillas Cov Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit	Posted - 2009.04.03 05:15:00 - [91] Edited by: Sillas Cov on 03/04/2009 05:19:32 I Agree with the obvious outrage AKita has with Cpp over the overwhelming amount of very poorly implemented UI that: a)forces us to hunt for obviously needed information b)engaging us in hugely clumsy repetitive tasks to access and manipulate stuff. (example of the separate loading and unloading multiple containers with the same mineral or item) c)force the use of very basic controls to do time sensitive important tasks. (example why not a simple button for drones attack selected target, or drones dock up now! or how about presets for scan ranges, or auto scan intervals? Why ONLY numbers typed into a dialog box for ranges, and endless clicking for scanning?? I could go on about so many things that have frustrated and eaten up many many hours of my game time in this regard. Don't get me started about how incomplete the new scanner system is. Fun yes, poorly designed for an advanced space ship simulation. How about my favorite: I have 380 orders up on the market. I scroll down my list OF ACTIVE ORDERS to middle as I need to check my price to see if I'm being underbid. I then right click, and check on the market and then when I come back to my long list of orders and find the list HAS SCROLLED BACK TO THE FRACKING TOP and doesn't hold its last position in the middle of the list, so I cannt then carry on with the next order in the list. LIKE WTF CPP?? Why make us struggle with a list of 300 odd orders over and over again?? Why not simply highlight our active items in the marketplace so we can easily see what orders we have and the price in relation to the other orders. With a quick right click price change option right from the main market window?? WE PAY YOU to play a game and expect simple, easily fixed things to be fixed.... years ago..... I don't pay you to waste my time with endless poorly designed UI designs. This thread has hit a nerve with me big time, as I have just shaken my head so many times while struggling with this game... A game I love dearly. I think something strange happens to game designers when they get paid to play and design games. I suspect they somehow loose sight of how incredibly important it is to streamline and make accessible, a users interaction with your software Given Eve involves so many intensive time, repetitive, and information rich aspects.... CPP Please STOP with your next big glitzy patch like the last one and truly FIX what you already heave on the go.... For the love of God please... fix this crap. Onward Sillas
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.04.03 05:31:00 - [92] I love how people can stretch a single minor gripe into a huge rant poast about how it totaly destroys the rest of the ui. Keep it coming. Originally by: Achar Losa i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
Darathor Omegie	Posted - 2009.04.03 06:32:00 - [93] Originally by: Ana Vyr Edited by: Ana Vyr on 02/04/2009 19:57:32 The game interface, new player experience, and in game community itself is like a slap in the face for a lot of MMO players. I came to EvE looking for something more complex and I got my wish. However, if you truly want to grow the game community faster than it is, CCP is going to have to rework a lot of things. The average WoW player would take one look at the interface alone and say "screw this". Granted it also seems to me that the game community in EvE doesn't want these types of players in the game to begin with. In some ways, the insane learning curve and obscure features in the UI help keep the moron content in the community to a low levels...and that seems to be a desireable outcome for a lot of forum posters at least. Wow got its huge subscription numbers by catering to the lowest common denominator...and I have a gut feeling that a community composed of such folks would ultimately destroy everything EvE is about. That aside, the user interface is completely ******ed in some ways. Take the drone interface for example. You have to click this tiny little triangle to configure your drone behavior. Why? Why not just put the same buttons on the friggin' main drone interface and have done? Stuff like that really detracts from the game. The control interfaces take up FAR too much screen real estate as well. hmm average.. I must admit EVE's UI is confusing at first and mightly intimidating, for maybe a day. But I also played text based online strat games and they tend to be more confusing. The UI doesn't need a huge revamp it just needs to be cleaned up a bit. It is like trying to do paper work but the paper work is thrown all over the desk in no particular order, of course it will be intimdating and confusing + probably cause some nub's to just walk away. There is a lot of things that are just cluttering the screen that makes it look overwhelming when it is not. Accesories,charachter info,fitting, people and places could be added to one group in the side menu. You only really need map,journal and market. The rest can be put in some other access option
Rufis Dangerfield	Posted - 2009.04.03 06:55:00 - [94] Good OP Akita. Agree with everything you wrote. Too bad it will likely be ignored.
Darkmist Starpain Divine Power. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.04.03 07:11:00 - [95] I just had to login to respond here after I read: "You know what my pinnacle of "near-perfection" in the way help is given to the user is ? Master of Orion II" That is one of the best games EVER made. Shame that MOO3 sucked donkey balls. That is all. Continue please. ------------------------ Wildly Inappropriately Horny
Maria Kalista Amarr Emerald Forest Securities	Posted - 2009.04.03 07:43:00 - [96] Originally by: Zeba You know your buddys name is Jimbo but unfortunatly when you search for him using 'character' it generates a list as long as your arm with him somewere in the middle so use 'character(exact)' to save yourself the hassle. See the problem is not bad ui but people who don't make the connection as to why its set up the way it is and assumes its bad design. Maybe I'm totally, But that character/ corporation/ solar system etc. window opens up in another window. Or should I say, yet another window. That scrolling bar shouldn't be there (see my link) in the 1st place. While I'm busy, why have all these different windows different minimum resize settings? It would be a gift from god if all windows could be sized down to that of a cargo hold container window, making having multiple windows open less.... convoluted, you know? Originally by: tentonhammer One galaxy, limited resources, 450K players who are all a little odd to begin with and a porous system of currency trading. Welcome to the asylum, let's take a tour!
Dracoknight	Posted - 2009.04.03 07:51:00 - [97] A simple answer with only two words is enough to make the whole thread of whine uselss and make you look stupid: the two words are "Quit EVE" Like it or not... quit complaining... theres others trying to play here... Rawr!
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.03 08:06:00 - [98] Originally by: Daemonspirit Originally by: Megan Maynard It's called a corp, new players shouldn't be allowed to play the way they want, in a rookie corp, it's a terrible in every way. (Macro, dumb players, lack of strong empire corp recruiting.) Imagine if the rookie corps had a higher tax, high enough that macro profits would be terrible, new players would *gasp seek out corps instead of floundering away that shiny new cruiser with armor and shield tanks into Rancer? Just a thought. Kinda think CCP's heard this before, and fixed that for you... Yes indeed, and I believe a certain Dev had something to say about joining a player corp, did he not...?
Esamir	Posted - 2009.04.03 08:06:00 - [99] Originally by: Akita T GAME MASTERS WHO DO NOT KNOW THE GAME Add ISD to the list. To noob ISDs on the help channel: do not contradict me if you don't know what you're talking about. kthx.
Esamir	Posted - 2009.04.03 08:08:00 - [100] Originally by: Dracoknight A simple answer with only two words is enough to make the whole thread of whine uselss and make you look stupid: the two words are "Quit EVE" Like it or not... quit complaining... theres others trying to play here... A. His complaining doesn't affect your ability to play B. What is wrong with providing criticism? C. You made yourself look stupid
Reven Cordelle Caldari Lemuria Prospecting	Posted - 2009.04.03 08:10:00 - [101] Edited by: Reven Cordelle on 03/04/2009 08:10:30 Seriously Akita, it seems like you're really starting to develop some issues with EVE/CCP in general. I think its time you had a time-out mister. Srsly. Every big thread you make SEEMS to be slating the crap out of EVE, whats wrong with it... why something is broken... Everything has flaws! EVERYTHING. Go... take a break. Play something else and then come back.
ivar R'dhak Minmatar	Posted - 2009.04.03 09:07:00 - [102] HAD to log in to counter some of these fanboi morons. Making EVE hard to get, to weed out the so called WOW morons isn¦t only elitist, it¦s plain stupid. All you¦re getting is a different kind of moron, namely the geeky morons. A particularly irritating moron subspecies, as this thread again proves. EVE has NO UI. It has menus. I somewhere read, that the cardinal sin of a game developer is to make his game look like the OS. Well CCP got that one right. From my 1st days in 0.0, so many moons ago, this p!$$ed me off to no end. I just learned to ignore it, after the 1st year or so. Heck trying to control the adrenaline shakes so that you can hit the frackin¦ "warp to" menu point, is practically an inbuilt minigame on itself. As was learning to right-click on the lower-right of the screen, so that the warp options aren¦t appearing on the other half of the frikken screen. newsflash: THIS IS HUMONGOUSLY CRAPPY UI DESIGN! The only thing barely approaching an UI is the radial menu, that usually get¦s shoveled of to the middle button(and forgotten). Because it always pops up when you don¦t need it and too slowly when you do. Either hire some guys who know how to design an UI, or stick the current peeps in some UI-design courses on some UNI. /Rant Akita for CSM president! And yes, I¦m putting my money where my mouth is and suspending my accounts. The camel that broke that back was the unattainable T3 Cruisers, AND being griefed by CCP no less, through loosing skillpoints when shot down in one. Reserving my verdict on the Wormhole situation, but for now it¦s nothing but a griefing (sorry PVP) haven that yields too little for too much risk. _ Mal-`Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-¦Big damn heroes sir.¦ Mal-¦Aint we just.¦
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2009.04.03 09:19:00 - [103] Originally by: ivar R'dhak EVE has NO UI. It has menus. I somewhere read, that the cardinal sin of a game developer is to make his game look like the OS. Well CCP got that one right. That EVE's UI looks like a cut down version of Windows is why I like it so much. Whoever wrote that should stick to consoles maybe? Also, lolcontradiction. - DesuSigs
Kaptain Kruncher	Posted - 2009.04.03 09:47:00 - [104] Originally by: Reven Cordelle Edited by: Reven Cordelle on 03/04/2009 08:10:30 Seriously Akita, it seems like you're really starting to develop some issues with EVE/CCP in general. I think its time you had a time-out mister. Srsly. Every big thread you make SEEMS to be slating the crap out of EVE, whats wrong with it... why something is broken... Everything has flaws! EVERYTHING. Go... take a break. Play something else and then come back. Agreed. I feel like the millionth customer in another Akita T. Misery Post. If you really wanted to be constructive to the game design, then you would be posting in the Game Developement section. When Apoc first hit SiSi, I saw how Moonwytch and Space Wanderer helped to solve many issues related to the new probing system. They did it by posting factual and constructive critisism along with a long list of bug reports, as did many of the other players that were on Sisi. So if you want to make this game reach the pinnacle of uberness, as you claim, go to Game Dev and help out by being a positive force for change instead of another cry baby, stamping your foot and slinging insults in the guise of "Posting For The Greater Good". And one other thing- Your disparaging remarks about Icelandics and Iceland really **** me off. I lived there for three years and have never found more friendly and interesting people in my life. Icelandics are very open minded and curious people. I never found them to be arrogant or mean. Mostly you seem to have some other issues and I think Reven Cordelle's suggestion is the best: Take a break from this game- you're in too deep.
LordSwift Caldari	Posted - 2009.04.03 10:38:00 - [105] Akita T- Why do you still play eve. All i ever see is complain threads/replys from you. But concerning your post i have no issues with the UI. Sures its not perfect but works as well as it should. I will say the Corporation interface does need a major overhaul tho Join the brown Coats today!!!
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.04.03 10:56:00 - [106] Originally by: LordSwift Akita T- Why do you still play eve. All i ever see is complain threads/replys from you. Just because you love something doesn't mean you don't want to see it improve — quite the opposite in fact. So the real question is: why do you hate the game so much, seeing as how you don't care about improving it? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
meat vapour	Posted - 2009.04.03 11:23:00 - [107] itt, akita t gets a semi from the sound of his own typing...
Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.04.03 11:31:00 - [108] I like the 'icelandic economy' metaphor
kanojo1969 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.04.03 11:57:00 - [109] Edited by: kanojo1969 on 03/04/2009 12:03:11 Edited by: kanojo1969 on 03/04/2009 12:01:35 I develop user interfaces for a living and I could write a lengthy critique that would make Akita's OP look like the work of a slobbering fanboy. But I've never bothered because it doesn't really matter. I'm not saying this as a 100% unarguable fact; there's a ton of people who would still be playing if the UI was as good as we think it could be. But my experience over the last 20 years shows that the majority of users actually don't really care very much about the UI. It's part of the reason why the Mac has always sat on 5% market share - most people just have no taste and can't even tell a well designed UI from a horrible one. Once people are shown how to do a task, they more or less don't care if it takes 2 steps or 8. Most people have no taste so the appearance of things doesn't bother them. A disturbingly large % of people PREFER a horrible UI because it makes them feel superior to those who can't figure it out. Go figure. Again, these points are all debatable but my overall point is that a total UI rewrite and redesign is an incredibly expensive exercise in an application that hasn't been designed for it. In terms of actual # of extra subscribers they would get for doing it, I very much doubt that it's a very good use of limited resources. And please, don't go on about users providing the UI if there was some customisation system. You simply have no idea how difficult it would be to implement that, and how the number of exploits would increase tenfold overnight. Sure, it would be fine if the original system was architected to support it, but I'm sure it's not. You need an extremely robust abstraction layer to ensure custom UI widgets can't do anything they aren't supposed to. For me, the biggest improvement that is realistic and would help people the most is consistency. Just use the same interfaces for similar tasks, make 10% mean 10% in an unambiguous way whereever it's used. Making it behave consistently would be a huge help and it's not an impossible dream. But all-in-all, the UI has much less to do with the success of the product than you probably think. Signature removed due to no EvE content and is not suitable in any way. Navigator
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits Academy The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.04.03 12:12:00 - [110] Got to agree with Akita there. I have no comparison with other MMO's. But I have been using a lot of software for work and personal entertainment and nothing reaches Eve's level of crazyness in terms of user interfaces. Let's say you wanna reorganize your fleet and put people from the third squad to the first one while your fleet window does not show all fleet members. You click on a member in squad 3, move him to squad one and the view jumps there together with the member. Then you scroll down again, rinse and repeat. The drone interface is not comfortable to operate either. No shortcuts for launching particular predefined groups of drones? Why? When you left click on a module in the fitting screen, you offline it - WTF? You wanna rename a corp wallet division? You think, doing it in the corp wallet window by right clicking on the division is logical? You fool! Trade something from the corp hangar to a member to fit his ship? No way to do it directly, first put it in your hangar . Remove your CSPA service charge? Good luck finding that option as a new player. Transfer money from one corp wallet division to another? No idea still, I still put the money in my private wallet and back to the other division... An interface to pay out shares of ransoms to fleet members, allowing you to select a list of people who get all the very same amount? How could I think about such a silly requirement And still I like this game for reasons beyond of my comprehension Would just be nice if the UI was designed by people who played the game. In our Academy I spend a lot of time explaining how to use the UI while I would actually prefer to concentrate on piracy. Originally by: Rells First of all, I wouldn't give you the sweat off my balls.
Bumbum George	Posted - 2009.04.03 12:14:00 - [111] Originally by: Sillas Cov c)force the use of very basic controls to do time sensitive important tasks. (example why not a simple button for drones attack selected target, or drones dock up now! here is a perfect example for a person who wants everything handed to him instead of using his own frecking mind. you know, there ARE buttons for those tasks you named, you (usually) have at least 105 of them on your KEYBOARD. i know, i know, assigning buttons on your own would be work and would require people to actually do some thinking so freck that, ranting is way more fun!
Sun Ra The Royal Syndicate	Posted - 2009.04.03 12:32:00 - [112] The UI still bugs me, prob the worst thing in eve by far, just let people make their own ffs AHUH AHUH AHUH AHUH
Rufis Dangerfield	Posted - 2009.04.03 12:37:00 - [113] Originally by: Dracoknight A simple answer with only two words is enough to make the whole thread of whine uselss and make you look stupid: the two words are "Quit EVE" Like it or not... quit complaining... theres others trying to play here... LOL I love it. "Don't complain. Don't try to improve anything. Never try to point out the flaws in anything. Be a mindless sheep and if you dislike the way something is done, give up and walk away." Your government LOVES people like you, too
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.04.03 12:45:00 - [114] You learn like everyone learns, or at least how I learned. Get killed and lose all your stuff, but you find stuff out. BOOM "Oh I see, so there's this aggression timer that stops you from jumping..." BOOM "Oh I see, rats can't be neuted" Boom "Oh I see, so I can't dock if I shoot back" Boom "Oh I see, a repair ship can dock instantly if it wants to" BANG "Oh I see, lowsec sentry guns cycle targets" Boom "Oh I see, I can't warp to an enemy even if they're over 150km away" BANG "Oh I see, if you're warp jammed you can jump through a stargate but it doesn't work like that with an acceleration gate* Boom "Oh I see, I should mash the overview buttons to control my ship in risky situations so my cursor and camera lag don't get my ship blown up at zero on a stargate when I can jump, or when my pod is able to warp but out the ship explosion freezes the game" Bang "Oh I see, the stargate can bounce you back sometimes if you warp to zero" Boom "Oh I see, sometimes you're just not warped just quite close enough to jump when in your pod" etc... etc... ad nauseum... if you disagree with me then you should probably post a response and stop reading my signature.
Arkyk Viper Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.04.03 15:24:00 - [115] Edited by: Arkyk on 03/04/2009 15:26:33 Originally by: Crumplecorn That EVE's UI looks like a cut down version of Windows is why I like it so much. Whoever wrote that should stick to consoles maybe? Oddly enough, consoles tend to use menus because of the lack of a quick pointing device. It's one of the main reasons I (and I'm sure others) dislike ports from console to the PC. Take Oblivion, for example. Terrible UI for a mouse and keyboard; perfect for a console. They just re-mapped the controller buttons to keyboard buttons and called it good. Want to drop an item? Scroll to it in the list and hit backspace (and it took me an astonishingly long time to figure even that out, actually, but perhaps that one is on me.). I'm sure the lack of drag and drop makes Oblivion "hardcore" and weeds out the "WoW kiddies" though.
Sillas Cov Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit	Posted - 2009.04.03 15:37:00 - [116] Originally by: Bumbum George Originally by: Sillas Cov c)force the use of very basic controls to do time sensitive important tasks. (example why not a simple button for drones attack selected target, or drones dock up now! here is a perfect example for a person who wants everything handed to him instead of using his own frecking mind. you know, there ARE buttons for those tasks you named, you (usually) have at least 105 of them on your KEYBOARD. i know, i know, assigning buttons on your own would be work and would require people to actually do some thinking so freck that, ranting is way more fun! BumBum you and so many other in Eve would so quickly fall in step with any useful change implemented into the UI, that the warped logic of your response to my concerns is beyond the word hypocrisy ...... I understand Cpp has huge challenges to balance funding new content with maintaining what they already have coded. But this attitude in Eve that we should all just suck up the huge flaws in the game as this will get us into the Ubber elite metality of the Pvp club..... its utter crap. No, its an insult to your customers to hold their love of the game as a manipulative force, to get them to endure years and hundreds of in game hours struggling with poorly implemented systems that should be streamlined. We Have T3 with all the man hours that went into that... that will in the end only effect less than %1 of Eve in the years to come, while funding for overhauling the UI would effect everyone in Eve immediately is such a positive way. BumBum maybe you need to take your head out of yer Arse there lad cuz you have lost site of the issue at hand. Sillas
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.04.03 15:39:00 - [117] Originally by: Kaptain Kruncher And one other thing- Your disparaging remarks about Icelandics and Iceland really ** me off. I lived there for three years and have never found more friendly and interesting people in my life. Icelandics are very open minded and curious people. I never found them to be arrogant or mean. Being a "good guy" has nothing to do with excellence in any and all fields you work on. Case in point, the Icelandic economy. Is it in shambles now or isn't it ? And why is it in shambles ? Because they did something that worked in the short run (but was bound to pop sooner or later), they did it on a major scale (one their economy could never hope to match), and they did it in spite of repeated warnings from other consultants and bankers (mainly from Sweeden). I'm just pointing out facts and a typical mindset here. True, this mindset brought us EVE when nobody else would have dared make such a game, and it worked great partially because of dedicated hard work and stubbornness, partially because of sheer luck... but it can't go on forever like that... hard work can only get you so far if you don't listen carefully to what everybody has to say. Most of CCP's efforts for the past year (or even longer) have been towards attracting new plyers and making old players come back. Their approach was "shiny new stuff" and "visually appealing stuff". Now imagine how the retention rates for new players would look like if the game had a much more intuitively designed and easier to use interface... and imagine just how many old players would come back if you tell them all those bits and pieces of bugs and annoyances that eventually got to the point of "the straw that broke the camel's back" and made them want to quit were cleared out ? _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK**
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.04.03 15:42:00 - [118] Originally by: Akita T and they did it in spite of repeated warnings from other consultants and bankers (mainly from Sweeden). That's Sviiiden to you… We don't have any stinkin' ‘w’s or ‘ee’s around here, thankyouverymuch. Ehm… so, anyway… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Jaffnar Borg	Posted - 2009.04.03 16:01:00 - [119] Some things I would like to see added to the interface: Quick looting - Instead of opening the wreckage, doing ctrl-A and draging everything into my cargo bay, I could just press ctrl while clicking the opening button and then everything gets looted. Much more shortcut actions - For example it would be even better, if I could just define a shortcut for "loot all" or one for "unlock target" or one for "disable all modules on target" or one for ... Because in the end, clicking is bad and always inferior to shortcuts. In DAoC we even kicked players out of PvP groups, when we found out that they were clicking their abilities! Support for more mouse buttons - I would like to use my thumb button for the circle menu.
Ana Vyr DB - LJ Industries	Posted - 2009.04.03 16:46:00 - [120] People who love a game the most are often its most fierce critics.

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