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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.02 17:38:00 -
[1]
So, yeah, EVE sucks far less than all other MMOs out there, that has to be said.
But that doesn't mean it's "fine".
ALMOST NO IN-GAME INFO FOR THE NEWCOMERS.
Let me start with the obvious...
Would it really kill you to have tooltips on "just about everything" ? A lot of the cryptic-named stuff on "showinfo" is just as confusing as it can be.
Yeah, the "welcome pages" are somewhat nice... FOR A VETERAN... but they're nowhere near enough - and most people just SKIP reading them because they're ANNOYING. You don't shove all that information in the face of a person the moment he's trying to do something trivial, you should have that information available in bits and pieces as tooltips on the things that matter, and all of it available as "show me more info" simewhere in the corner - kind of a showinfo button, but for the screen you're in.
And using non-standardized ways to represent something... seriously, when you see "0.1%" (damage rate on mining crystals) you start wondering... is that really 0.1%, or is it actually 10% ? Or maybe it's 1% ? (note: it's actually 10%). Or what about "capacitor recharge rate bonus -20%" (hint : it's -20% capacitor recharge TIME, which translates into +25% capacitor recharge rate).
You know what my pinnacle of "near-perfection" in the way help is given to the user is ? Master of Orion II. Play it, and see what I mean... you can just about right-click on ANYTHING for a detailed description of what it means.
LOUSY DOCUMENTATION OF BASIC GAME MECHANICS (and nearly no in-game description of it)
The new tutorials are, well, somewhat decent, but again, nowhere near enough.
Yeah, you gave us evewikiclopedia or whatsitsname.
Now, if only it was up to date... and if only you could actually view it on the IGB properly... and only if you could really find what you're looking for.
I occasionally do personally burst an eye blood vessel when somebody complains about getting scammed with a 0.0 courier contract to a player station or getting ganked in his trusty industrial that was carying his life savings and whatnot... but if you really stop to think about it... NORMAL/AVERAGE people could very easily encounter such an issue and never have had a chance to be in touch with the information that would help them avoid that situation in the first place.
And don't get me started on POS setup stuff, invention, manufacturing and a lot of other thinsg you would consider a "profession" of sorts.
Yeah, sure, you can say it "promotes human interaction" by making sure people ask other more experienced people for help.
But at the same time, the majority of EVE players have a mean streak in them at times, so encouraging social interaction by making (what I would condsider) vital information mainly available via social channels is... well... questionable.
GAME MASTERS WHO DO NOT KNOW THE GAME
Yeah, I've complained myself about the people that file frivolous petitions, causing a larger load for the GMs, which forces CCP to hire more (and less eperienced) GMs that tend to do copypasta jobs on a lot of petitions.
It is the general feeling of quite a few people I know that just FILING a petition has become basically just a "hey, listen" conversation starter, and that they have to either escalate or refile the petition just to get a decent answer for anything that's not a 100% clear situation (and sometimes even for those).
Seriously, when some of your own GMs start looking like they don't really know what the heck they're talking about, it's REALLY time to re-visit the "how things should be in EVE" documentation and help system.
NON-GAME-BREAKING BUT ANNOYING LONG-STANDING BUGS OR ISSUES
I understand you like the idea of shiny new content, but when after MANY YEARS something as trivial as the corp interface has received next to no improvements (just giving one of the worst case scenario examples I can think of), then something is really, really fishy.
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.02 17:39:00 -
[2]
reserved
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Cailais
Amarr
Diablo Advocatus
Vanguard.
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Posted - 2009.04.02 17:43:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Akita T
reserved
What for?
C.
Originally by: Capa
So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.02 17:46:00 -
[4]
I kind of disagree. EvE is much more interesting when you don't know how stuff works. It's the discovery that's fun.
If you're the kind of person for whom learning isn't fun then so sorry, wrong game etc.
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Digital Solaris
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Posted - 2009.04.02 17:46:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: Akita T
reserved
What for?
C.
Bellum's psychic powers? Akita doing a spell-check? Find out tomorrow! |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.02 17:55:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Digital Solaris
Originally by: Cailais
reserved ? What for?
Bellum's psychic powers? Akita doing a spell-check? Find out tomorrow!
Find out in a couple of minutes (as in, now), actually 
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:01:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 02/04/2009 17:57:48
Originally by: Digital Solaris
Originally by: Cailais
reserved ? What for?
Bellum's psychic powers? Akita doing a spell-check? Find out tomorrow!
Find out in a couple of minutes (as in, now), actually
Originally by: Malcanis
I kind of disagree. EvE is much more interesting when you don't know how stuff works. It's the discovery that's fun.
If you're the kind of person for whom learning isn't fun then so sorry, wrong game etc.
It's one thing to learn from information that's readily available at the push of a button.
It's another thing to learn by reading a wiki, several subforums, doing a couple of google searches and still coming up with 2-3 different explanations for the same thing, having to actually go on SiSi to test it first to see which one is true or not (if SiSi has the same version as TQ), or trying it on TQ with disastruous consequences.
Let's recall, EVE is essentially a GAME. You don't really want information about a GAME to be nearly as hard to get as information about RL stuff is.
The hilariously incomplete documentation encourages in-game socialising, and is also a rich, never-ending source of forum comedy.
Besides, I'm not that bright, I'm usually drunk, and I'm god-dambed lazy. If an idle dimwit souse like me can figure stuff out then no other vertebrate has an excuse.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:03:00 -
[8]
Except that CCP *wants* a lot more players
Also, most smart people usually consider themselves just about average, while stupid people consider themselves smarter than average. Only the truly stupid and truly bright know their place properly without it being shoved down their throats with a shovel.
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Zylithi
Caldari
Interstellar Association of Alcohol Consumption
Terrebellum
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:04:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Zylithi on 02/04/2009 18:04:46
In my mind, eve only has one, and one only, problem:
Quote:
SOCKET: CLOSED
(and, just to make you feel better, the 100 mil you just spent on fighters is now gone)
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:07:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Akita T
Except that CCP *wants* a lot more players
Yeah, and they've been getting them.
EvE doesn't come with good instructions, true. Neither does RL and that gets over 6 billion subs.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:11:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Malcanis
Yeah, and they've been getting them.
EvE doesn't come with good instructions, true. Neither does RL and that gets over 6 billion subs.
And WOW sucks as a game compared to EVE in almost every aspect except hand-holding, but it has far over 10 mil subs, which are voluntary, not "no choice" as RL-the-MMG is 
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Isilwen Nightfall
Caldari
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:15:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Malcanis
Yeah, and they've been getting them.
EvE doesn't come with good instructions, true. Neither does RL and that gets over 6 billion subs.
And WOW sucks as a game compared to EVE in almost every aspect except hand-holding, but it has far over 10 mil subs, which are voluntary, not "no choice" as RL-the-MMG is
WoW does not get its subrscriptions for its tooltips. It gets its subscriptions due to the fact that there's no need for them.
---
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:17:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Isilwen Nightfall
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Malcanis
Yeah, and they've been getting them.
EvE doesn't come with good instructions, true. Neither does RL and that gets over 6 billion subs.
And WOW sucks as a game compared to EVE in almost every aspect except hand-holding, but it has far over 10 mil subs, which are voluntary, not "no choice" as RL-the-MMG is
WoW does not get its subrscriptions for its tooltips. It gets its subscriptions due to the fact that there's no need for them.
Nicely put.
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Buster Gonads
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:17:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Akita T
Except that CCP *wants* a lot more players
Yeah, and they've been getting them.
EvE doesn't come with good instructions, true. Neither does RL and that gets over 6 billion subs.
Non sequitur for the loss Mr Malcanis. I like the op's post. You've been too long in the goldfish bowl but you don't know it.
Something that I thought was very instructive was watching a CCP employee demonstrate something to an audience during a presentation (something on YouTube). He had trouble finding and clicking an option on one of the right-click context menus, with much knowing laughter from the audience. The reason this is instructive is because it shows how even being an expert is no guarantee of success with a crap user interface.
I was going to put up a post about RSI (there have been enough over the years). I don't think CCP put UI high enough on the priority list. You don't need masses of "help" pages ifyou make a good UI from the start. If you do it right, it should be easy for a user to discover how things work in a more natural way. With Eve, not only are you in the dark most of the time, you're presented with the whole caboodal from the start and the widgets are so tiny or ill positioned you'll fracture your Capitate in no time at all.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:24:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Isilwen Nightfall
WoW does not get its subrscriptions for its tooltips. It gets its subscriptions due to the fact that there's no need for them.
And that's where the "Dear CCP, your UI is a massive failure" part of the second post comes in
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:27:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Buster Gonads
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Akita T
Except that CCP *wants* a lot more players
Yeah, and they've been getting them.
EvE doesn't come with good instructions, true. Neither does RL and that gets over 6 billion subs.
Non sequitur for the loss Mr Malcanis. I like the op's post. You've been too long in the goldfish bowl but you don't know it.
Something that I thought was very instructive was watching a CCP employee demonstrate something to an audience during a presentation (something on YouTube). He had trouble finding and clicking an option on one of the right-click context menus, with much knowing laughter from the audience. The reason this is instructive is because it shows how even being an expert is no guarantee of success with a crap user interface.
I was going to put up a post about RSI (there have been enough over the years). I don't think CCP put UI high enough on the priority list. You don't need masses of "help" pages ifyou make a good UI from the start. If you do it right, it should be easy for a user to discover how things work in a more natural way. With Eve, not only are you in the dark most of the time, you're presented with the whole caboodal from the start and the widgets are so tiny or ill positioned you'll fracture your Capitate in no time at all.
I'm not arguing gainst a better UI.
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Emporer Cheney
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:27:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Akita T
And using non-standardized ways to represent something... seriously, when you see "0.1%" (damage rate on mining crystals) you start wondering... is that really 0.1%, or is it actually 10% ? Or maybe it's 1% ? (note: it's actually 10%). Or what about "capacitor recharge rate bonus -20%" (hint : it's -20% capacitor recharge TIME, which translates into +25% capacitor recharge rate).
This is indeed incredibly frustrating. I heard this game was for ueber-nerds with a math disorder. Great - I'm a nerd with a math degree. But none of the modifiers are what they say they are. When trying out different modules on my ship, I need to activate and deactivate various things, go to my ship info screen, write down the results in a log and then do a little math to figure out what things actually do. That is messed up. There's a spreadsheet worth of data on the "attributes" tab, but most of it is irrelevant, and the one or two things you really want to know about are on the very bottom for some reason and usually wrong. That's crazy.
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Vancali
Minmatar
Black Moon Privateers
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:28:00 -
[18]
/me shakes head and comes out of trance
I can't believe I read as long as I did. Point out all the bad stuff? How about you point out the overwhelming good side? I'm not gonna list it all here, but there's a reason that this game has both grown over time and lasted as long as it has.
*sigh*
/whatev...
_______________________________________
This sig took me 10 seconds to make. =p |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:30:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Vancali
Point out all the bad stuff? How about you point out the overwhelming good side?
Because pointing out the stuff that's good leads to no improvements.
I'm not in the "business" of kissing CCP's posterior, I'm in the business of constructivecriticismverbalpimpslapping them into making EVE the near-perfect game.
Yeah, wishful thinking...
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Out of Order
Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:33:00 -
[20]
Akita T, I endorse this product 100%. (Or 1.0% in the eve world)
The industry side isn't the only place that have had problems for a long time, but the game is still fun despite the drawbacks.
Faction Warfare being unfairly nerfed 2 weeks into it's existence, the lack of content in game compared to out of game, total neglect of a basic drone interface that seems to get worse each patch. (They now abandon themselves for no reason.)
I'm all for new content, but this stupid idea that they HAVE to patch every 6 months despite the glaring need of fixes not new "stuff" has gotten worse rather then better lately.
Game still rocks though. 
Stop, hammer time. |
Isilwen Nightfall
Caldari
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:35:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Isilwen Nightfall on 02/04/2009 18:35:49
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Isilwen Nightfall
WoW does not get its subrscriptions for its tooltips. It gets its subscriptions due to the fact that there's no need for them.
And that's where the "Dear CCP, your UI is a massive failure" part of the second post comes in
Honestly i did not have so many problems when i started playing. A bit of clicking and reading, and that's it.
Sure, it could be optimized. But imho it's far from being a "massive failure".
Maybe i'm just an ugly and stupid elitist, but if a newcomer can't manage to play EvE because there are no "good tooltips" for the interface, how the hell is he going to play the rest of the game?
---
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:35:00 -
[22]
EVE should have a Basic Training program - at the beginning, it should warn people that EVE is not for everyone, that most people fail and only the strong and determined will survive to move on to next round. Don't forget to call newbs maggots and accuse them being of soft carebears, helping them to become hardcore 
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Out of Order
Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:42:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ephemeron
EVE should have a Basic Training program - at the beginning, it should warn people that EVE is not for everyone, that most people fail and only the strong and determined will survive to move on to next round. Don't forget to call newbs maggots and accuse them being of soft carebears, helping them to become hardcore
It's called a corp, new players shouldn't be allowed to stay in a rookie corp, it's a terrible in every way. (Macro, dumb players, lack of strong empire corp recruiting.)
Imagine if the rookie corps had a higher tax, high enough that macro profits would be terrible, new players would *gasp seek out corps instead of floundering away that shiny new cruiser with armor and shield tanks into Rancer?
Just a thought.
Stop, hammer time. |
Intense Thinker
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.04.02 18:44:00 -
[24]
I'm totally with Megan on this one
Pomp FTW!!! |
NRCom
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.04.02 19:00:00 -
[25]
I agree fully with the OP, particularly the way they use measurements on modules.
Thankfully CCP donÆt design motor vehicle instrumentation.
But then in their defence they are based on a postage sized island in the middle of a freezing sea, with a population no greater than a small Midwestern town, and to top it all they officially believe in Elves!!!
And they should design fantastic intuitive software interface?... LOL
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Ragnar Foulberg
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Posted - 2009.04.02 19:03:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Vancali
I can't believe I read as long as I did. Point out all the bad stuff? How about you point out the overwhelming good side? I'm not gonna list it all here, but there's a reason that this game has both grown over time and lasted as long as it has.
*sigh*
/whatev...
I have a brand new Porsche I'm willing to sell for a very reasonable price. It has tons of power, is extremely fast, very quiet to ride in, and is as comfortable as a luxury sedan. It's also a beautiful design that attracts chicks like crazy.
Unfortunately, it has no steering wheel and the brakes don't work. But maybe we should just talk about the "overwhelming good side" and not worry too much about those pesky details...
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.04.02 19:04:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
It's called a corp, new players shouldn't be allowed to stay in a rookie corp, it's a terrible in every way. (Macro, dumb players, lack of strong empire corp recruiting.)
Imagine if the rookie corps had a higher tax, high enough that macro profits would be terrible, new players would *gasp seek out corps instead of floundering away that shiny new cruiser with armor and shield tanks into Rancer?
Just a thought.
I'd give it 36 hours before the number of one man corporations has doubled. And mind you that includes all the forum alt corps and mocking corporations. Heck, I'd have a handful myself.
Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 687755
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The Snowman
Gallente
Wurmz.
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Posted - 2009.04.02 19:25:00 -
[28]
I'd pretty much agree with everything here, especially on the explanation of things like the interface.
Having lead several people through the trial since apochrypha ive become increasingly frustrated, and tired at having to explain basic things.
The new player experience was supposed to make things easier, but it doesnt, it expects you to already know basic things, and the removal of Aura has made it incredibly hard for these new players to do anything without me being there to explain things. most have them have gotton bored and already left. Not because of a lack of things to do but for the fact that its just no fun.
CCP have yet to learn that new players find it embarassing to ask noob question and get incredibly frustrated. Especially when the first thing you have to do is kill a ship and the game hasnt even told you how to warp yet! Let alone getting in range, activating guns, aproaching orbiting...
I'd go a step further and say that in Many ways EVE is a lot worse that other MMO's and CCP are still noobs in the MMO world. Nearly everyone Ive come to know in Eve who are 'hardcore' regularly take lengthy breaks, it just becomes too much like work. |
Jennifer Celeste
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Posted - 2009.04.02 19:39:00 -
[29]
anyone else find it ironic that the OP is still PAYING to play?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.02 19:48:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jennifer Celeste
anyone else find it ironic that the OP is still PAYING to play?
Yeah, because admiting from the start it's the best game out there WHILE STILL HAVING A LOT OF CORRECTABLE FLAWS is very ironic...
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Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.02 19:48:00 -
[31]
"Be careful what you wish for..."
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Montmazar
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.02 19:55:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Jennifer Celeste
anyone else find it ironic that the OP is still PAYING to play?
EVE - LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT.
HEY COMMIES WHINERS MOVE BACK TO RUSSIA WOW
Seriously, what is so inherently illegitimate about paying customers having some problems with the product they paid for? I love my local grocery store, but if I bought some sour milk from them and complained I really doubt other customers would start yelling "GO TO SAFEWAY LOSER."
sidenote: emporer (sic) cheney from the previous post is me, I created an alt just to see how it works and for some reason it set that as my default character here.
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Ana Vyr
DB - LJ Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.02 19:55:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Ana Vyr on 02/04/2009 19:57:32
The game interface, new player experience, and in game community itself is like a slap in the face for a lot of MMO players. I came to EvE looking for something more complex and I got my wish. However, if you truly want to grow the game community faster than it is, CCP is going to have to rework a lot of things.
The average WoW player would take one look at the interface alone and say "screw this". Granted it also seems to me that the game community in EvE doesn't want these types of players in the game to begin with. In some ways, the insane learning curve and obscure features in the UI help keep the moron content in the community to a low levels...and that seems to be a desireable outcome for a lot of forum posters at least.
Wow got its huge subscription numbers by catering to the lowest common denominator...and I have a gut feeling that a community composed of such folks would ultimately destroy everything EvE is about.
That aside, the user interface is completely ******ed in some ways. Take the drone interface for example. You have to click this tiny little triangle to configure your drone behavior. Why? Why not just put the same buttons on the friggin' main drone interface and have done? Stuff like that really detracts from the game. The control interfaces take up FAR too much screen real estate as well.
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Out of Order
Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2009.04.02 19:57:00 -
[34]
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: Megan Maynard
It's called a corp, new players shouldn't be allowed to stay in a rookie corp, it's a terrible in every way. (Macro, dumb players, lack of strong empire corp recruiting.)
Imagine if the rookie corps had a higher tax, high enough that macro profits would be terrible, new players would *gasp seek out corps instead of floundering away that shiny new cruiser with armor and shield tanks into Rancer?
Just a thought.
I'd give it 36 hours before the number of one man corporations has doubled. And mind you that includes all the forum alt corps and mocking corporations. Heck, I'd have a handful myself.
Which are all equally war decable. 
Stop, hammer time. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.02 19:58:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Jennifer Celeste
anyone else find it ironic that the OP is still PAYING to play?
Yeah, because admiting from the start it's the best game out there WHILE STILL HAVING A LOT OF CORRECTABLE FLAWS is very ironic...
Listen.
You should calm down.
Eve isn't perfect, nor will it ever be. Nor can it ever be. Get yourself a cold beer and accept that fact. It's not essential that every last guy that tries out the game subs up for life.
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Montmazar
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.02 19:59:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ana Vyr
The game interface, new player experience, and in game community itself is like a slap in the face for a lot of MMO players. I came to EvE looking for something more complex and I got my wish. However, if you truly want to grow the game community faster than it is, CCP is going to have to rework a lot of things.
The average WoW player would take one look at the interface alone and say "screw this". Granted it also seems to me that the game community in EvE doesn't want these types of players in the game to begin with. In some ways, the insane learning curve and obscure features in the UI help keep the moron content in the community to a low levels...and that seems to be a desireable outcome for a lot of forum posters at least.
Wow got its huge subscription numbers by catering to the lowest common denominator...and I have a gut feeling that a community composed of such folks would ultimately destroy everything EvE is about.
That aside, the user inerface is completely ******ed in some ways. Take the drone interface for example. You have to click this tiny little triangle to configure your drone behavior. Why? Why not just put the same buttons on the friggin' main drone interface and have done? Stuff like that really detracts from the game.
I think people here often confuse complexity (can be good) with complication (pointless). Being unable to double click on a container to open it, or having make two clicks on an item to repackage it before reselling it does not actually add to the game or make it more rich. Similarly, having descriptions of items that are inaccurate does not make the game more rewarding for veteran players, it just makes it harder for new players.
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Major Stallion
The Dark Horses
W A S T E L A N D
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Posted - 2009.04.02 20:00:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: Megan Maynard
It's called a corp, new players shouldn't be allowed to stay in a rookie corp, it's a terrible in every way. (Macro, dumb players, lack of strong empire corp recruiting.)
Imagine if the rookie corps had a higher tax, high enough that macro profits would be terrible, new players would *gasp seek out corps instead of floundering away that shiny new cruiser with armor and shield tanks into Rancer?
Just a thought.
I'd give it 36 hours before the number of one man corporations has doubled. And mind you that includes all the forum alt corps and mocking corporations. Heck, I'd have a handful myself.
Which are all equally war decable.
which are also all equally prone to their 1 member leaving and starting a new corp. As much as people THINK that's an exploit, CCP has no real official stance on the issue.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.04.02 20:06:00 -
[38]
I agree with the OP on this one. Things aren't game breakingly bad, but higher standards would be nice. The difference between a good and a brilliant game can sometimes be just in the ammount of polish. If little annoyances keep popping up, it can keep you from really getting into the game and add to the frustration. On the other hand, if things work smooth and are fine tuned, even a simple game can be extremely enjoyable.
My worry too is that, if CCP relies too much on CSM in deciding their focus, these issues will never be addressed. Veterans are used to these things, so they are unlikely to demand change in sufficient numbers. Instead we will see a endless cycle of demands about nerfs/buffs to certain ships/races/weapons. Nice things to have, but I'd choose more polish over that at this point.
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Shuddayomoufa
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Posted - 2009.04.02 20:09:00 -
[39]
Dear CCP. The interface is too hard. I want
this
Love me
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.02 20:09:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Malcanis
Eve isn't perfect, nor will it ever be. Nor can it ever be. Get yourself a cold beer and accept that fact. It's not essential that every last guy that tries out the game subs up for life.
Heretic !
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Montmazar
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 20:13:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Shuddayomoufa
Dear CCP. The interface is too hard. I want
this
Love me
In the ideal game, every action takes fifteen clicks to perform, and all descriptions of items are blatant lies. Anyone who wants accurate information or an intuitive user interface should basically play WoW or just die already.
Because I spent a lot of time mastering a deeply counter intuitive interface system that means I am intelligent.
Did I miss anything?
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 20:28:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Montmazar
In the ideal game, every action takes fifteen clicks to perform, and all descriptions of items are blatant lies. Anyone who wants accurate information or an intuitive user interface should basically play WoW or just die already.
Because I spent a lot of time mastering a deeply counter intuitive interface system that means I am intelligent.
Did I miss anything?
The ideal game would be all black most of the time except a status report screen every weekend... and you would have to know what you're doing exactly !
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 20:30:00 -
[43]
Akita T ur a Drama queen... ffs shut it ...
You (like me and about 75,000 others) figured out the game and stuck with it, you are not above average or special so why do you think it has to be dumbed up to suit new players. So what if it's confusing, so what you have to work at it, if people want a dumb game they play WoW or Solitare, if they want a game where you need a modicom of intelligence they will have enough brains to research and those that do are the ones that will stay the longest.
The choice is more idiots and crass morons in the game as its all cosy, easy wow stlye and all shinney and idiot proof, or; you have intelligent people who are able to work with whats there and get the maximun out of it and revel in the quirks they come across........
Better keep One intelligent player who will add to the game over years than gain 10 idiots who are just tards for a few weeks till they get bored as its a long haul game not the few week fest that wow and such like are.
...... continues overleaf. |
Shuddayomoufa
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 20:30:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Montmazar
Originally by: Shuddayomoufa
Dear CCP. The interface is too hard. I want
this
Love me
In the ideal game, every action takes fifteen clicks to perform, and all descriptions of items are blatant lies. Anyone who wants accurate information or an intuitive user interface should basically play WoW or just die already.
Because I spent a lot of time mastering a deeply counter intuitive interface system that means I am intelligent.
Did I miss anything?
You are right. Let me correct:
Dear CCP. The interface is too hard. I have no suggestions other than
this
Love me
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 20:39:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Akita T on 02/04/2009 20:42:24
Originally by: Brainless Bimbo
brainless bimbo stuff
How about YOU research a way to lock/unlock 1000 corp blueprints ?
Oh, wait, it's 1000 vote starts, 24 hour wait, 1000 attempts to unlock, half fail, 500 new vote starts, 24 hour wait, repeat ad nauseaum...
Or how about you research how "trash it" used to be right next to "train it", so "research" how to not have any accidental shakes in the mouse.
Maybe "research" how to make significant more profit mining in lowsec compared to mining in highsec... oh, wait, it has nothing to do with research.
Or "research" what "0.1%" means. Wait, everybody will tell you it's 1/1000. Nope, in EVE, sometimes, it's actually 1/10. Wow, now that was a research WORTH doing !
And yeah, I mean, seriously, WHY should ANY of the information be available IN THE FRIGGIN GAME, when you can find it after doing a couple of google searches ? I mean, seriously, such a LAZY person !
I've said it more than once and I'll say it again and again : shut your clueless friggin piehole, you brainless bimbo.
P.S. The nickname suits you perfectly.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 21:09:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 02/04/2009 20:39:02
Originally by: Brainless Bimbo
brainless bimbo stuff
How about YOU research a way to lock/unlock 1000 corp blueprints ?
Oh, wait, it's 1000 vote starts, 24 hour wait, 1000 attempts to unlock, half fail, 500 new vote starts, 24 hour wait, repeat ad nauseaum...
Or how about you research how "trash it" used to be right next to "train it", so "research" how to not have any accidental shakes in the mouse.
Maybe "research" how to make significant more profit mining in lowsec compared to mining in highsec... oh, wait, it has nothing to do with research.
Or "research" what "0.1%" means. Wait, everybody will tell you it's 1/1000. Nope, in EVE, sometimes, it's actually 1/10. Wow, now that was a research WORTH doing !
I've said it more than once and I'll say it again and again : shut your clueless friggin piehole, you brainless bimbo.
P.S. The nickname suits you perfectly.
lol Akita, look you've had a hard day so relax, now with your Corp BPO's, why didn't you Petition it, and petition it every time it happened, thats what Petitions are for.... do it often enough and they'll rewrite the code, may be they already have but its not stable, maybe they can't (like the font size)
Thrash it and all of those types of actions actually have a warning box, if you turned off the warnings its 100% your fault for not being 100%, in PvP you'll end up in a pod or emerging from a clone vat not paying attention, it carries over into other aspects of the game, but there are safe guards, but ppl turn them off.
If anyone wants to excel in a single aspect of the game they can, those who figure it out and are community minded write guides, you want CCP to hand hold too much, its a sand box you gotta explore, experiment and thats playing the game.
Mining profit depends on lots of factors no matter where you mine, the market dictates price not some game planner in 2003 who set a value with zero player population interaction.
With the attribute thing its a known issue and they are slowly changing them, but the confusion actually adds in a certian respect (or would if it followed faction/racial lines), but lots of that is settled in the Fittings window.
There are players out there who don't read the info and rely on EFT/evemon or the bloke they just met.
I like Eve because it has warts, because you have to pay attention, because its imperfect. Stop trying to impose your view on it, go and write your own vision, your a customer not a project devoloper at CCP, if you don't like the product stop buying it and go to a competitor.
You remind me of an east european who fell in love with the americian dream and never realised that that is all it was nothing but a dream....
...... continues overleaf. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 21:48:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Brainless Bimbo
I like Eve because it has warts, because you have to pay attention, because its imperfect. Stop trying to impose your view on it, go and write your own vision, your a customer not a project devoloper at CCP, if you don't like the product stop buying it and go to a competitor.
Just because the product is "barely good enough" and all competitor's products suck doesn't mean you have to be happy with it and never push for any improvements whatsoever.
What's the BENEFIT in having a cumbersome UI ?
What's the good thing about NOT having comprehensive help for things the game is supposed to be doing ?
What does the fact some the GMs themselves look like clueless kids sometimes say about the game's ease of use ?
Just because something is easy to use doesn't mean it's simple. Just because something is obfuscated or lacks proper documentation doesn't mean it's "for smart people".
When the hell are you going to learn the difference between those two things ?
|
Noix Arikani
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 21:55:00 -
[48]
I do agree with Akita on this one and she is probably the most intelligent person on these forumns IMO but its a doble edged sword, if you make the UI too easy then yes WoWification sets in and there are only minor quirks that need to be worked out in the UI, not complete re-hauls that you seem to be advocating |
Montmazar
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 22:02:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Shuddayomoufa
Originally by: Montmazar
Originally by: Shuddayomoufa
Dear CCP. The interface is too hard. I want
this
Love me
In the ideal game, every action takes fifteen clicks to perform, and all descriptions of items are blatant lies. Anyone who wants accurate information or an intuitive user interface should basically play WoW or just die already.
Because I spent a lot of time mastering a deeply counter intuitive interface system that means I am intelligent.
Did I miss anything?
You are right. Let me correct:
Dear CCP. The interface is too hard. I have no suggestions other than
this
Love me
So correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying you like this game because its user interface is difficult? I can understand liking a challenging game, but liking a challenging user interface? That is strange. Let me flip this around a bit: if WoW was really hard to use and full of inaccurate information, would you like it too?
|
Gonada
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 22:05:00 -
[50]
Dear OP, and all you ex- WoW kiddies.
SUCK IT UP< mmmk?
your tears make you look like the non-spined person you probobly are in real life.
|
Montmazar
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 22:07:00 -
[51]
Also: liking a bad user interface makes you strong. It is spineless to dislike a bad user interface.
I am learning all kinds of interesting things from this thread. Things about courage.
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Gonada
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 22:14:00 -
[52]
actually, once you get used to it and learn how to use the interface, it is not that bad.
course nothing is as idiotproof as wow's interface, is that what your getting at ?
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ItradethereforIam
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 22:16:00 -
[53]
I'M NOT GONNA TAKE THIS ANYMORE!
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Arkyk
Viper Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 22:16:00 -
[54]
Perfect post by the OP, and I agree with it completely.
I'd say the UI is my biggest issue with the game. Half of the annoyance is figuring out the 10 clicks you need to get anything done, and the other half is having to always do 10 clicks over and over and over and over . . .
The UI is so menu driven, it could practically be a console game.
Next up would be as you would say, the "non-standard" ways they have of presenting information. The great thing about the EvE devs is that they're always working on with something new and interesting; The bad thing about the EvE devs is that they are always working on something new and interesting.  I think it would be great if sometimes they would just put all future plans for new stuff on hold and go fix/polish up all the things that are broken/erroneous/contradictory in the game they already have.
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Trathen
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 22:24:00 -
[55]
ITT: People grace WoW interface with much hyperbole. Everyone mods it for a reason.
_ |
Florio
Federal Defence Union
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 22:25:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Florio on 02/04/2009 22:25:21
op has knickers in a twist, but i agree with him completely.
ccp needs someone with a psychology degree majoring in ergonomics (or common sense, but that's rare) to go through the game with a scalpel.
|
Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 22:28:00 -
[57]
I have always found (since I learned to right-click and what icons to look for) the user interface to be quite intuitive, and not much of a bother. If people really find it that challenging, maybe they should find an easier game. Something like EVE is always going to have some degree of complexity to it, no matter how much they improve it. Corp interface is lol though.
-
DesuSigs |
Daemonspirit
Redhawk Tribal Trust
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 22:31:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
It's called a corp, new players shouldn't be allowed to play the way they want, in a rookie corp, it's a terrible in every way. (Macro, dumb players, lack of strong empire corp recruiting.)
Imagine if the rookie corps had a higher tax, high enough that macro profits would be terrible, new players would *gasp seek out corps instead of floundering away that shiny new cruiser with armor and shield tanks into Rancer?
Just a thought.
Kinda think CCP's heard this before, and fixed that for you...
ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö |
Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 22:40:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Brainless Bimbo on 02/04/2009 22:45:44
Akita, i'm not asking you to be happy, i'm asking you to live in the real world for a moment where what we want and what we get or what is possible are poles apart for so many differing reasons that probally haven't even been thought of let alone considered.
Did you see the hedge fund CEO's in congress admit they didn't have a clue about what they were doing and you expect a log crawling GM to know and do everything perfectly when they spend a lot less time in game than the average john, again you're divorced from reality
I want the font to be scaleable, it can't be unless they re-write everything (7 years worth of code with a price tag of as many numbers), they are devoloping the UI at a slowpace, they are changing the attribute info, its being worked on, just because its not fast enough for your liking you get indignant and jump on your soap box but it will not change anything... and on the customisable UI, CCP have said it will never happen as it leads to UI wars to gain unfair advantage, just because they have it in another game doesn't make it mandatory for Eve.
Now get a passport and go get yourself voted on to the CSM, if people like you ideas they will vote and you'll have a valid mandate to moan at and motivate CCP.
until then your just another drama queen in search of attention.
...... continues overleaf. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 22:58:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Akita T on 02/04/2009 23:05:50
Originally by: Brainless Bimbo
Akita, i'm not asking you to be happy, i'm asking you to live in the real world for a moment where what we want and what we get or what is possible are poles apart for so many differing reasons that probally haven't even been thought of let alone considered.
When you see something that takes thousands upon thousands of manhours being created that will end up appealing to a tiny minority of the population, and at the same time you see stuff that would maybe take hundreds of manhours to do properly but would benefit just about everybody... well, what kind of reaction do you think I should have to that ?
Originally by: Crumplecorn
I have always found (since I learned to right-click and what icons to look for) the user interface to be quite intuitive, and not much of a bother. If people really find it that challenging, maybe they should find an easier game. Something like EVE is always going to have some degree of complexity to it, no matter how much they improve it. Corp interface is lol though.
I didn't say it was insanely hard to figure out all the time... if you have the patience to try everything, you'll eventually find what you want.
But sometimes, stuff that gets used often has an insane number of steps you need to always repeat, and other stuff is very often so well hidden in plain sight it makes you want to facepalm when you stumble upon it by accident.
The UI is not "dumb", it's just cumbersome and feels like the work of an undergrad student for his semester finals or somesuch, with next to no polish. It looks as if whoever put it together was either in a huge rush or being very lazy, there's no effort made to streamline anything.
Also, a lot of things that would take next to no programming effort normally, you have to do manually, because god forbid the programmer should have the code do it automatically - like, say, recalculate remaining skill times whenever you clonejump or plug in other implants... no, you have to manually pause training and resume after, because the client doing it automatically is too much.
Also, the issue of desynchronisation... a LOT of people have experienced it... but has CCP even tried to implement any kind of "checksums" to determine automatically if a resynch is needed ? Or added some (limited) form of manual resynch request ? No, they haven't.
And the list could go ON AND ON...
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 23:31:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Malcanis
I kind of disagree. EvE is much more interesting when you don't know how stuff works. It's the discovery that's fun.
If you're the kind of person for whom learning isn't fun then so sorry, wrong game etc.
I'd /thread this quote but alas its against the forum rules to make a post with only that as the content. 
Originally by: Achar Losa
i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
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Montmazar
Gallente
Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 23:38:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Malcanis
I kind of disagree. EvE is much more interesting when you don't know how stuff works. It's the discovery that's fun.
If you're the kind of person for whom learning isn't fun then so sorry, wrong game etc.
I'd /thread this quote but alas its against the forum rules to make a post with only that as the content.
So people actually do enjoy a bad interface. This is mind blowing. Again, the question:
If WoW had an extremely counterintuitive interface, does that mean you would like it?
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 23:46:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Montmazar
So people actually do enjoy a bad interface. This is mind blowing. Again, the question:
If WoW had an extremely counterintuitive interface, does that mean you would like it?
The interface has always been fine and from day one I neve had any issue figuring out what things did. Or when something did lack a certain intuitiveness I just asked a question in chat or looked or asked on the forums. Windows with information in them that you can use to manipulate the information is what the eve ui is made of. No fancy graphics or borders or any of the frilly eyecandy that those 'other' mmo games have. The ui in eve is movable and resizable and customizable with the normal limits. Now thats not to say the ui couldn't use a bit more functionality or even that some long standing bugs or annoyances are not still around but to call the eve ui a bad interface is just trolling.
Originally by: Achar Losa
i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
|
Gonada
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 23:46:00 -
[64]
hard does not equate bad.
ohh and another point: there are multiple eve sites that have all the info you need and more in order to play the game , so why do poeple still complain that theres no information?
noone, unless mentally deficient, starts playing an online game without looking for online resources nowdays.
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Montmazar
Gallente
Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 23:51:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Gonada
hard does not equate bad.
Counter-intuitive does not mean more fun. Noob-unfriendly does not mean better. And more generally, complexity does not equal complication.
And what kind of game relies on users googling information about how to operate it? That is crazy.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 23:53:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Akita T
I didn't say it was insanely hard to figure out all the time... if you have the patience to try everything, you'll eventually find what you want.
That might have been how it was for you, for me pretty much the entire thing was obvious. Patience was never an issue because I found almost everything easily. I was surprised when I first found that people consider it a bad interface. Considering how much people tend to hate it, and how much I like it, I'm pretty sure I'd hate to use anything they came up with.
That's not to say that there isn't room for improvement, but that merely means it isn't perfect.
-
DesuSigs |
Discrodia
Gallente
Independent Miners Guild
Guild Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 23:56:00 -
[67]
If I agree with one of your many points, T3 is the one I agree with most.
When Apocrytha was announced they said, and I quote from EON: "The various subsystems will have skills that need to be trained for, but the initial requirements shouldn't be too steep." Implying relativly easy to get both cash and skill wise.
I got all excited, thinking that maybe I might finally get the true ship customization I wanted. And I diverted a month of skill training once the skill reqs were known. And you know what?
I completely regret it. I lost a whole month that could've gone to souping up a battlecruiser or trying out some new items to train for some thing that, as on now, is 4 billion ISK away. 4 BILLION ISK!! Where're your 'not too steep' initial requirements? Where're the people who even buy these things? I think CCP should notice when they create a cruiser that costs more than TWO BLOODY DREADNAUGHTS it's not exactly within public reach. Hell, it took me a whole afternoon to wind through the maze of blueprints to find out exactly what I needed, and how far away that all was.
I hope CCP is happy that they managed to completely betray my trust with this expansion, and while I'm not going to emoragequit (I've played WoW, it's 3000 times worse) I want them to know how dissapointed I am in them.
______________________________________________
Discrodia > SILENCE! I KILL YOU!
Northern Fall > They're just sleepers disc... |
Daelorn
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 23:57:00 -
[68]
Baaaaack in my day we didn't HAVE tutorials or anything to teach us. I made it just fine!
*beats Akita with a cane*
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 23:58:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Montmazar
And what kind of game relies on users googling information about how to operate it? That is crazy.
Yes I forgot that blizzard makes you buy lots and lots and lots and lots of exspensive books to be well informed on the finer details of thier games. Stupid CCP and the fan sites just give it all away for free online. 
Originally by: Achar Losa
i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
|
Imiarr Timshae
Caldari
Funny Men In Funny Hats
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 23:58:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Akita T
ALMOST NO IN-GAME INFO FOR THE NEWCOMERS.
We like to weed out the morons.
Regrettably, its clearly not a system that always works.
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Montmazar
Gallente
Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 23:58:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Zeba
The interface has always been fine and from day one I neve had any issue figuring out what things did.
User-interface wise, I haven't either. That said, many user interface options are completely pointless and puzzling. When I right click on a container, what do I want to do 99% of the time? Open it, right? So how come that is the sixth or seventh option down the list, well after "trash container," and option that most players will never select in the entire course of playing the game? That is bad user interface.
If I pull an item off my ship, how come I can bring up market data about that, but if I want to sell it I need to repackage it? And why does repackage have a confirm screen? In what situation would someone ever be impeded by repackaging something accidentally? A completely pointless extra three clicks per item. That is bad user interface.
When you make people click things more times than they have to, that is bad user interface. When extremely uncommon actions are prioritized above extremely common actions, that is bad user interface. I cannot believe any of this is at all controversial - the powers of fanboi blindness continue to amaze me.
Yes, it's a fun game. I pay for it and will continue to pay for it. That does not mean it has no flaws, and I do not understand why pointing out flaws is somehow construed as a moral or personal failing. Earlier you called complainers spineless. That is crazy.
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Montmazar
Gallente
Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 00:00:00 -
[72]
Apologies to Zeba - it was a different commentator who said complainers had no spines.
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Krinthe
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 00:04:00 -
[73]
When I started to read this thread, I half thought it was a joke, that you was just trying to be funny. Reason I say that is because most of what you wrote isnt true, esp about the info part.
What game are you playing anyways? This game is FULL of info, EVERYWHERE!!!! Its so full of info that its beginning to annoy me that everything I do has an info tab pop up. Ive been playing this game for about 2 weeks (give or take) and Ive had to use the "Rookie chat" a few times only to get an answer to my question.
You say you dont want the info shoved down your throat....Did you even notice there is a clickable spot to turn that stuff off?
Your post is MEH and since you brought it up...I would have to label you as one of the stupid ones who thinks they are smarter than the rest. You liked MoO so much, go back to it then.
A 10th of all I earn I keep for myself. |
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 00:09:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Zeba on 03/04/2009 00:10:32
Originally by: Montmazar
User-interface wise, I haven't either. That said, many user interface options are completely pointless and puzzling. When I right click on a container, what do I want to do 99% of the time? Open it, right? So how come that is the sixth or seventh option down the list, well after "trash container," and option that most players will never select in the entire course of playing the game? That is bad user interface.
Never understood people who complain about that. It's a right-click menu. It lists stuff. Look at what you are selecting and you will always highlight what you want to select. Do you do it with your periphery vision or something that you miss so much its an issue?
Originally by: Montmazar
If I pull an item off my ship, how come I can bring up market data about that, but if I want to sell it I need to repackage it? And why does repackage have a confirm screen? In what situation would someone ever be impeded by repackaging something accidentally? A completely pointless extra three clicks per item. That is bad user interface.
Repackging as a requirement for sale ensures the item is repaired and ready for sale. Want to buy a BS at a station with no repair service that is in deep hull? Repackaging with the confirm lets you not trash your fitted mods.
Originally by: Montmazar
When you make people click things more times than they have to, that is bad user interface. When extremely uncommon actions are prioritized above extremely common actions, that is bad user interface. I cannot believe any of this is at all controversial - the powers of fanboi blindness continue to amaze me.
The powers of the troll are pretty darn amazing too.
Originally by: Montmazar
Yes, it's a fun game. I pay for it and will continue to pay for it. That does not mean it has no flaws, and I do not understand why pointing out flaws is somehow construed as a moral or personal failing. Earlier you called complainers spineless. That is crazy.
So far I have shown that all your supposed ui flaws are just personal ineptitude on your part. Sorry.
edit:
Originally by: Montmazar
Apologies to Zeba - it was a different commentator who said complainers had no spines.
Np. I realised it was just part of the undocumented eve-o experience feature list.
Originally by: Achar Losa
i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
|
Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 00:10:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 03/04/2009 00:10:51
Originally by: Montmazar
If I pull an item off my ship, how come I can bring up market data about that, but if I want to sell it I need to repackage it?
Welcome to the reality of databases.
Originally by: Montmazar
And why does repackage have a confirm screen? In what situation would someone ever be impeded by repackaging something accidentally?
Rigged ship, for one.
Originally by: Zeba
So far I have shown that all your supposed ui flaws are just personal ineptitude on your part. Sorry.
Beat me to it!
-
DesuSigs |
Montmazar
Gallente
Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 00:11:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Krinthe
When I started to read this thread, I half thought it was a joke, that you was just trying to be funny. Reason I say that is because most of what you wrote isnt true, esp about the info part.
What game are you playing anyways? This game is FULL of info, EVERYWHERE!!!!
Math quiz:
.1% = 10%, true or false
Because according to EvE logic, it's true. (Except when it's not)
Followup:
If I have 55% em armor resistance, and I turn on a module that gives me 10% bonus to em armor resistance, how much armor resistance do I now have? Because if you answered either 60.5% or 65%, the two answers most people schooled in Earth-math would choose, you are also wrong.
There is indeed lots of information. That information, however, is poorly organized, and often has very little relation to reality.
|
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 00:17:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Zeba on 03/04/2009 00:19:41
I'll let one of the math wiz guys show you that formula. But the laymans explanation is that additional resistance buffs work on the remaining unresisted hp. This is to make sure we all don't run around in effectively damage immune 99.9% resist ships.
Originally by: Achar Losa
i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
|
Montmazar
Gallente
Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 00:18:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Zeba
menu. It lists stuff. Look at what you are selecting and you will always highlight what you want to select. Do you do it with your periphery vision or something that you miss so much its an issue?
Have you ever found it odd that in most computer programs, the most common action performed in a context menu is generally the most intuitively accessible?
Originally by: Zeba
Repackging as a requirement for sale ensures the item is repaired and ready for sale. Want to buy a BS at a station with no repair service that is in deep hull? Repackaging with the confirm lets you not trash your fitted mods.
That makes sense for ships, but ships are a very small fraction of all items sold. Also, the check you are describing could be accomplished in many other, far simpler ways.
Originally by: Zeba
When you make people click things more times than they have to, that is bad user interface. When extremely uncommon actions are prioritized above extremely common actions, that is bad user interface. I cannot believe any of this is at all controversial - the powers of fanboi blindness continue to amaze me.
Everyone who does not love every part of this game is a complete troll and should play WoW a/o just die, I get it. Not allowed to have any problems with a product I pay for - roger.
Originally by: Zeba
So far I have shown that all your supposed ui flaws are just personal ineptitude on your part. Sorry.
This word - ineptitude - I do not think it means what you think it means.
|
Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 00:20:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Montmazar
Math quiz:
.1% = 10%, true or false
Because according to EvE logic, it's true. (Except when it's not)
Typos are hard.
Originally by: Montmazar
If I have 55% em armor resistance, and I turn on a module that gives me 10% bonus to em armor resistance, how much armor resistance do I now have? Because if you answered either 60.5% or 65%, the two answers most people schooled in Earth-math would choose, you are also wrong.
People schooled in Earth-math should have learned to know what numbers they are dealing with before trying to manipulate them.
-
DesuSigs |
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 00:26:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Montmazar
Again all you are effectivlely saying is that the eve ui does not perform to your personal expectations even though the vast majority of people seem to have no issues with it past Akita T and he just made this thread to attract people like you into it so people like us can have a live one to mess with.
<3 Akita T.
Originally by: Achar Losa
i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
|
Montmazar
Gallente
Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 00:28:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Montmazar on 03/04/2009 00:29:01
Just imagine how fun WoW would be if your +5 sword of orc slaying actually conveyed a +4.25 bonus due to the asymptotic nature of possible weapon improvements. And the fact that +5 was actually .4.25 was documented nowhere. And also the +5 was actually listed as + .5%, but really means +5 (which really means +4.25) and only noobs wouldn't know that. And what if you had to click three times to sell a single item? Man, that would be a blast. Then only the really dumb people would still be playing simple old Eve.
|
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 00:30:00 -
[82]
Lmao. I'm not even going to touch that one though prepare yourself for battle from others.
Originally by: Achar Losa
i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
|
Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 00:45:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Montmazar
Just imagine how fun WoW would be if your +5 sword of orc slaying actually conveyed a +4.25 bonus due to the asymptotic nature of possible weapon improvements.
Actually, stacking penalty aside, a additional 10% resist hardener will provide 10% mitigation of DPS, whatever the current resist is. Intuitive, no?
-
DesuSigs |
Arvald
Caldari
Letiferi Praedones
The Council.
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 01:03:00 -
[84]
all i have to say is
*golfclap*
ok but seriously, next person that derails my thread gets a railroad spike shoved through their neck |
Arkyk
Viper Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 02:22:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Zeba
The powers of the troll are pretty darn amazing too.
Troll != someone who disagrees.
And while I agree with CCP that an addon system like WoW is not the right fit for EvE, I have to think it's rather a shame, since (arguably) one of the great things about WoW addons was that quite frequently Blizzard would go "Woah, that's much better than the crap we have now." and steal it for their own. Some (most, really) of the major improvements to the WoW UI originally came from addons.
Perhaps it would be more constructive for someone (who obviously has a lot more time on hand than me) to photoshop up some interface screenshots to show the kinds of things they'd like to see. See if that sparks any "Oohs" and "Ahhs" from the masses.
|
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 02:26:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Arkyk
Originally by: Zeba
The powers of the troll are pretty darn amazing too.
Troll != someone who disagrees.
I agree. However Montmazar in this case was obviously trolling.
Originally by: Achar Losa
i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
|
ceaon
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 02:58:00 -
[87]
i can agree whit akita on many things
@ the UI i dont want the custom UI but some improvements on the short them only want to point  THE BLOODY MARKET FONT SIZE IS A ****
|
Maria Kalista
Amarr
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 03:38:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Zeba
The interface has always been fine
Wut? 
Be honest now, this is quit annoyingly unnecessarily stupid.
Originally by: tentonhammer
One galaxy, limited resources, 450K players who are all a little odd to begin with and a porous system of currency trading. Welcome to the asylum, let's take a tour! |
b1zz
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 03:54:00 -
[89]
Let me translate the OP: fix the UI and give us infinite tool tips ref. to Orion II.
His post rants on a bit but he's absolutely right on the basic points. The glaring example of CCPs ineptitude at UI design is the new fitting screen. Here we've had EFT for years now as a thorough, complete fitting utility you would think when CCP say they're going to address the fitting screen the result would be at least on par with EFT, but it's not even close to the point of why did they bother.
I don't buy into the argument that it's good for the game that info is hard to access. The game is plenty complex enough even for a player who knows it all. All players navigating through the galaxy in a haze of semi-understanding is not good for the game, nor is it good that to lift this haze you need to spend as much time outside the game reading than in the game playing. CCP need to think seriously about information delivery and getting players 'in the zone' quicker if they want to retain and attract more players.
And enough with the calls to remove NPC corps, it's not going to happen unless CCP wants to lose the casual half of their player base. 
|
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 04:10:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Maria Kalista
Originally by: Zeba
The interface has always been fine
Wut?
Be honest now, this is quit annoyingly unnecessarily stupid.
You know your buddys name is Jimbo but unfortunatly when you search for him using 'character' it generates a list as long as your arm with him somewere in the middle so use 'character(exact)' to save yourself the hassle. See the problem is not bad ui but people who don't make the connection as to why its set up the way it is and assumes its bad design.
Originally by: Achar Losa
i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
|
Sillas Cov
Caldari
22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 05:15:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Sillas Cov on 03/04/2009 05:19:32
I Agree with the obvious outrage AKita has with Cpp over the overwhelming amount of very poorly implemented UI that:
a)forces us to hunt for obviously needed information
b)engaging us in hugely clumsy repetitive tasks to access and manipulate stuff.
(example of the separate loading and unloading multiple containers with the same mineral or item)
c)force the use of very basic controls to do time sensitive important tasks.
(example why not a simple button for drones attack selected target, or drones dock up now!
or how about presets for scan ranges, or auto scan intervals? Why ONLY numbers typed into a dialog box for ranges, and endless clicking for scanning??
I could go on about so many things that have frustrated and eaten up many many hours of my game time in this regard.
Don't get me started about how incomplete the new scanner system is. Fun yes, poorly designed for an advanced space ship simulation.
How about my favorite:
I have 380 orders up on the market. I scroll down my list OF ACTIVE ORDERS to middle as I need to check my price to see if I'm being underbid.
I then right click, and check on the market and then when I come back to my long list of orders and find the list HAS SCROLLED BACK TO THE FRACKING TOP and doesn't hold its last position in the middle of the list, so I cannt then carry on with the next order in the list.
LIKE WTF CPP?? Why make us struggle with a list of 300 odd orders over and over again??
Why not simply highlight our active items in the marketplace so we can easily see what orders we have and the price in relation to the other orders. With a quick right click price change option right from the main market window??
WE PAY YOU to play a game and expect simple, easily fixed things to be fixed.... years ago.....
I don't pay you to waste my time with endless poorly designed UI designs.
This thread has hit a nerve with me big time, as I have just shaken my head so many times while struggling with this game...
A game I love dearly.
I think something strange happens to game designers when they get paid to play and design games.
I suspect they somehow loose sight of how incredibly important it is to streamline and make accessible, a users interaction with your software
Given Eve involves so many intensive time, repetitive, and information rich aspects....
CPP Please STOP with your next big glitzy patch like the last one and truly FIX what you already heave on the go....
For the love of God please... fix this crap.
Onward
Sillas
|
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 05:31:00 -
[92]
I love how people can stretch a single minor gripe into a huge rant poast about how it totaly destroys the rest of the ui. Keep it coming.
Originally by: Achar Losa
i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
|
Darathor Omegie
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 06:32:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Ana Vyr
Edited by: Ana Vyr on 02/04/2009 19:57:32
The game interface, new player experience, and in game community itself is like a slap in the face for a lot of MMO players. I came to EvE looking for something more complex and I got my wish. However, if you truly want to grow the game community faster than it is, CCP is going to have to rework a lot of things.
The average WoW player would take one look at the interface alone and say "screw this". Granted it also seems to me that the game community in EvE doesn't want these types of players in the game to begin with. In some ways, the insane learning curve and obscure features in the UI help keep the moron content in the community to a low levels...and that seems to be a desireable outcome for a lot of forum posters at least.
Wow got its huge subscription numbers by catering to the lowest common denominator...and I have a gut feeling that a community composed of such folks would ultimately destroy everything EvE is about.
That aside, the user interface is completely ******ed in some ways. Take the drone interface for example. You have to click this tiny little triangle to configure your drone behavior. Why? Why not just put the same buttons on the friggin' main drone interface and have done? Stuff like that really detracts from the game. The control interfaces take up FAR too much screen real estate as well.
hmm average.. I must admit EVE's UI is confusing at first and mightly intimidating, for maybe a day.
But I also played text based online strat games and they tend to be more confusing.
The UI doesn't need a huge revamp it just needs to be cleaned up a bit. It is like trying to do paper work but the paper work is thrown all over the desk in no particular order, of course it will be intimdating and confusing + probably cause some nub's to just walk away.
There is a lot of things that are just cluttering the screen that makes it look overwhelming when it is not.
Accesories,charachter info,fitting, people and places could be added to one group in the side menu.
You only really need map,journal and market. The rest can be put in some other access option
|
Rufis Dangerfield
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 06:55:00 -
[94]
Good OP Akita. Agree with everything you wrote. Too bad it will likely be ignored.
|
Darkmist Starpain
Divine Power.
Wildly Inappropriate.
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 07:11:00 -
[95]
I just had to login to respond here after I read:
"You know what my pinnacle of "near-perfection" in the way help is given to the user is ? Master of Orion II"
That is one of the best games EVER made. Shame that MOO3 sucked donkey balls. 
That is all. Continue please.
------------------------
Wildly Inappropriately Horny
|
Maria Kalista
Amarr
Emerald Forest Securities
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 07:43:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Zeba
You know your buddys name is Jimbo but unfortunatly when you search for him using 'character' it generates a list as long as your arm with him somewere in the middle so use 'character(exact)' to save yourself the hassle. See the problem is not bad ui but people who don't make the connection as to why its set up the way it is and assumes its bad design.
Maybe I'm totally,
But that character/ corporation/ solar system etc. window opens up in another window. Or should I say, yet another window.
That scrolling bar shouldn't be there (see my link) in the 1st place.
While I'm busy, why have all these different windows different minimum resize settings? It would be a gift from god if all windows could be sized down to that of a cargo hold container window, making having multiple windows open less.... convoluted, you know?
Originally by: tentonhammer
One galaxy, limited resources, 450K players who are all a little odd to begin with and a porous system of currency trading. Welcome to the asylum, let's take a tour! |
Dracoknight
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 07:51:00 -
[97]
A simple answer with only two words is enough to make the whole thread of whine uselss and make you look stupid:
the two words are "Quit EVE"
Like it or not... quit complaining... theres others trying to play here...
Rawr! |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 08:06:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Daemonspirit
Originally by: Megan Maynard
It's called a corp, new players shouldn't be allowed to play the way they want, in a rookie corp, it's a terrible in every way. (Macro, dumb players, lack of strong empire corp recruiting.)
Imagine if the rookie corps had a higher tax, high enough that macro profits would be terrible, new players would *gasp seek out corps instead of floundering away that shiny new cruiser with armor and shield tanks into Rancer?
Just a thought.
Kinda think CCP's heard this before, and fixed that for you...
Yes indeed, and I believe a certain Dev had something to say about joining a player corp, did he not...?
|
Esamir
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 08:06:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Akita T
GAME MASTERS WHO DO NOT KNOW THE GAME
Add ISD to the list.
To noob ISDs on the help channel: do not contradict me if you don't know what you're talking about. kthx.
|
Esamir
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 08:08:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Dracoknight
A simple answer with only two words is enough to make the whole thread of whine uselss and make you look stupid:
the two words are "Quit EVE"
Like it or not... quit complaining... theres others trying to play here...
A. His complaining doesn't affect your ability to play
B. What is wrong with providing criticism?
C. You made yourself look stupid
|
Reven Cordelle
Caldari
Lemuria Prospecting
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 08:10:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Reven Cordelle on 03/04/2009 08:10:30
Seriously Akita, it seems like you're really starting to develop some issues with EVE/CCP in general.
I think its time you had a time-out mister.
Srsly. Every big thread you make SEEMS to be slating the crap out of EVE, whats wrong with it... why something is broken...
Everything has flaws! EVERYTHING.
Go... take a break. Play something else and then come back.
|
ivar R'dhak
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 09:07:00 -
[102]
HAD to log in to counter some of these fanboi morons.
Making EVE hard to get, to weed out the so called WOW morons isnŠt only elitist, itŠs plain stupid. All youŠre getting is a different kind of moron, namely the geeky morons.
A particularly irritating moron subspecies, as this thread again proves.
EVE has NO UI.
It has menus.
I somewhere read, that the cardinal sin of a game developer is to make his game look like the OS. Well CCP got that one right.
From my 1st days in 0.0, so many moons ago, this p!$$ed me off to no end. I just learned to ignore it, after the 1st year or so. Heck trying to control the adrenaline shakes so that you can hit the frackinŠ "warp to" menu point, is practically an inbuilt minigame on itself. As was learning to right-click on the lower-right of the screen, so that the warp options arenŠt appearing on the other half of the frikken screen.
newsflash: THIS IS HUMONGOUSLY CRAPPY UI DESIGN!
The only thing barely approaching an UI is the radial menu, that usually getŠs shoveled of to the middle button(and forgotten). Because it always pops up when you donŠt need it and too slowly when you do.
Either hire some guys who know how to design an UI, or stick the current peeps in some UI-design courses on some UNI.
/Rant
Akita for CSM president!
And yes, IŠm putting my money where my mouth is and suspending my accounts. The camel that broke that back was the unattainable T3 Cruisers, AND being griefed by CCP no less, through loosing skillpoints when shot down in one. Reserving my verdict on the Wormhole situation, but for now itŠs nothing but a griefing (sorry PVP) haven that yields too little for too much risk.
_
Mal-`Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?Š
Zoe-ŠBig damn heroes sir.Š
Mal-ŠAint we just.Š |
Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 09:19:00 -
[103]
Originally by: ivar R'dhak
EVE has NO UI.
It has menus.
I somewhere read, that the cardinal sin of a game developer is to make his game look like the OS. Well CCP got that one right.
That EVE's UI looks like a cut down version of Windows is why I like it so much.
Whoever wrote that should stick to consoles maybe?
Also, lolcontradiction.
-
DesuSigs |
Kaptain Kruncher
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 09:47:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Reven Cordelle
Edited by: Reven Cordelle on 03/04/2009 08:10:30
Seriously Akita, it seems like you're really starting to develop some issues with EVE/CCP in general.
I think its time you had a time-out mister.
Srsly. Every big thread you make SEEMS to be slating the crap out of EVE, whats wrong with it... why something is broken...
Everything has flaws! EVERYTHING.
Go... take a break. Play something else and then come back.
Agreed.
I feel like the millionth customer in another Akita T. Misery Post.
If you really wanted to be constructive to the game design, then you would be posting in the Game Developement section. When Apoc first hit SiSi, I saw how Moonwytch and Space Wanderer helped to solve many issues related to the new probing system. They did it by posting factual and constructive critisism along with a long list of bug reports, as did many of the other players that were on Sisi. So if you want to make this game reach the pinnacle of uberness, as you claim, go to Game Dev and help out by being a positive force for change instead of another cry baby, stamping your foot and slinging insults in the guise of "Posting For The Greater Good".
And one other thing- Your disparaging remarks about Icelandics and Iceland really **** me off. I lived there for three years and have never found more friendly and interesting people in my life. Icelandics are very open minded and curious people. I never found them to be arrogant or mean.
Mostly you seem to have some other issues and I think Reven Cordelle's suggestion is the best: Take a break from this game- you're in too deep.
|
LordSwift
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 10:38:00 -
[105]
Akita T- Why do you still play eve. All i ever see is complain threads/replys from you. But concerning your post i have no issues with the UI. Sures its not perfect but works as well as it should.
I will say the Corporation interface does need a major overhaul tho
Join the brown Coats today!!! |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 10:56:00 -
[106]
Originally by: LordSwift
Akita T- Why do you still play eve. All i ever see is complain threads/replys from you.
Just because you love something doesn't mean you don't want to see it improve — quite the opposite in fact.
So the real question is: why do you hate the game so much, seeing as how you don't care about improving it?
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
meat vapour
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 11:23:00 -
[107]
itt, akita t gets a semi from the sound of his own typing...
|
Turiel Demon
Minmatar
Shadow Reapers
DAMAGE INC...
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 11:31:00 -
[108]
I like the 'icelandic economy' metaphor
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kanojo1969
Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 11:57:00 -
[109]
Edited by: kanojo1969 on 03/04/2009 12:03:11
Edited by: kanojo1969 on 03/04/2009 12:01:35
I develop user interfaces for a living and I could write a lengthy critique that would make Akita's OP look like the work of a slobbering fanboy. But I've never bothered because it doesn't really matter.
I'm not saying this as a 100% unarguable fact; there's a ton of people who would still be playing if the UI was as good as we think it could be. But my experience over the last 20 years shows that the majority of users actually don't really care very much about the UI.
It's part of the reason why the Mac has always sat on 5% market share - most people just have no taste and can't even tell a well designed UI from a horrible one.
Once people are shown how to do a task, they more or less don't care if it takes 2 steps or 8. Most people have no taste so the appearance of things doesn't bother them. A disturbingly large % of people PREFER a horrible UI because it makes them feel superior to those who can't figure it out. Go figure.
Again, these points are all debatable but my overall point is that a total UI rewrite and redesign is an incredibly expensive exercise in an application that hasn't been designed for it. In terms of actual # of extra subscribers they would get for doing it, I very much doubt that it's a very good use of limited resources.
And please, don't go on about users providing the UI if there was some customisation system. You simply have no idea how difficult it would be to implement that, and how the number of exploits would increase tenfold overnight.
Sure, it would be fine if the original system was architected to support it, but I'm sure it's not. You need an extremely robust abstraction layer to ensure custom UI widgets can't do anything they aren't supposed to.
For me, the biggest improvement that is realistic and would help people the most is consistency. Just use the same interfaces for similar tasks, make 10% mean 10% in an unambiguous way whereever it's used. Making it behave consistently would be a huge help and it's not an impossible dream.
But all-in-all, the UI has much less to do with the success of the product than you probably think.
Signature removed due to no EvE content and is not suitable in any way. Navigator |
H Lecter
Gallente
The Black Rabbits Academy
The Gurlstas Associates
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 12:12:00 -
[110]
Got to agree with Akita there.
I have no comparison with other MMO's. But I have been using a lot of software for work and personal entertainment and nothing reaches Eve's level of crazyness in terms of user interfaces.
Let's say you wanna reorganize your fleet and put people from the third squad to the first one while your fleet window does not show all fleet members. You click on a member in squad 3, move him to squad one and the view jumps there together with the member. Then you scroll down again, rinse and repeat.
The drone interface is not comfortable to operate either. No shortcuts for launching particular predefined groups of drones? Why?
When you left click on a module in the fitting screen, you offline it - WTF?
You wanna rename a corp wallet division? You think, doing it in the corp wallet window by right clicking on the division is logical? You fool!
Trade something from the corp hangar to a member to fit his ship? No way to do it directly, first put it in your hangar .
Remove your CSPA service charge? Good luck finding that option as a new player.
Transfer money from one corp wallet division to another? No idea still, I still put the money in my private wallet and back to the other division...
An interface to pay out shares of ransoms to fleet members, allowing you to select a list of people who get all the very same amount? How could I think about such a silly requirement
And still I like this game for reasons beyond of my comprehension
Would just be nice if the UI was designed by people who played the game.
In our Academy I spend a lot of time explaining how to use the UI while I would actually prefer to concentrate on piracy.
Originally by: Rells
First of all, I wouldn't give you the sweat off my balls.
|
Bumbum George
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 12:14:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Sillas Cov
c)force the use of very basic controls to do time sensitive important tasks.
(example why not a simple button for drones attack selected target, or drones dock up now!
here is a perfect example for a person who wants everything handed to him instead of using his own frecking mind.
you know, there ARE buttons for those tasks you named, you (usually) have at least 105 of them on your KEYBOARD.
i know, i know, assigning buttons on your own would be work and would require people to actually do some thinking so freck that, ranting is way more fun!
|
Sun Ra
The Royal Syndicate
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 12:32:00 -
[112]
The UI still bugs me, prob the worst thing in eve by far, just let people make their own ffs
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Rufis Dangerfield
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 12:37:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Dracoknight
A simple answer with only two words is enough to make the whole thread of whine uselss and make you look stupid:
the two words are "Quit EVE"
Like it or not... quit complaining... theres others trying to play here...
LOL I love it.
"Don't complain. Don't try to improve anything. Never try to point out the flaws in anything. Be a mindless sheep and if you dislike the way something is done, give up and walk away."
Your government LOVES people like you, too
|
5pinDizzy
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 12:45:00 -
[114]
You learn like everyone learns, or at least how I learned.
Get killed and lose all your stuff, but you find stuff out. 
*BOOM* "Oh I see, so there's this aggression timer that stops you from jumping..."
*BOOM* "Oh I see, rats can't be neuted"
*Boom* "Oh I see, so I can't dock if I shoot back"
*Boom* "Oh I see, a repair ship can dock instantly if it wants to"
*BANG* "Oh I see, lowsec sentry guns cycle targets"
*Boom* "Oh I see, I can't warp to an enemy even if they're over 150km away"
*BANG* "Oh I see, if you're warp jammed you can jump through a stargate but it doesn't work like that with an acceleration gate*
*Boom* "Oh I see, I should mash the overview buttons to control my ship in risky situations so my cursor and camera lag don't get my ship blown up at zero on a stargate when I can jump, or when my pod is able to warp but out the ship explosion freezes the game"
*Bang* "Oh I see, the stargate can bounce you back sometimes if you warp to zero"
*Boom* "Oh I see, sometimes you're just not warped just quite close enough to jump when in your pod"
etc... etc... ad nauseum...
if you disagree with me then you should probably post a response and stop reading my signature. |
Arkyk
Viper Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 15:24:00 -
[115]
Edited by: Arkyk on 03/04/2009 15:26:33
Originally by: Crumplecorn
That EVE's UI looks like a cut down version of Windows is why I like it so much.
Whoever wrote that should stick to consoles maybe?
Oddly enough, consoles tend to use menus because of the lack of a quick pointing device.
It's one of the main reasons I (and I'm sure others) dislike ports from console to the PC. Take Oblivion, for example. Terrible UI for a mouse and keyboard; perfect for a console. They just re-mapped the controller buttons to keyboard buttons and called it good. Want to drop an item? Scroll to it in the list and hit backspace (and it took me an astonishingly long time to figure even that out, actually, but perhaps that one is on me.).
I'm sure the lack of drag and drop makes Oblivion "hardcore" and weeds out the "WoW kiddies" though.
|
Sillas Cov
Caldari
22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 15:37:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Bumbum George
Originally by: Sillas Cov
c)force the use of very basic controls to do time sensitive important tasks.
(example why not a simple button for drones attack selected target, or drones dock up now!
here is a perfect example for a person who wants everything handed to him instead of using his own frecking mind.
you know, there ARE buttons for those tasks you named, you (usually) have at least 105 of them on your KEYBOARD.
i know, i know, assigning buttons on your own would be work and would require people to actually do some thinking so freck that, ranting is way more fun!
BumBum you and so many other in Eve would so quickly fall in step with any useful change implemented into the UI, that the warped logic of your response to my concerns is beyond the word hypocrisy ......
I understand Cpp has huge challenges to balance funding new content with maintaining what they already have coded.
But this attitude in Eve that we should all just suck up the huge flaws in the game as this will get us into the Ubber elite metality of the Pvp club..... its utter crap.
No, its an insult to your customers to hold their love of the game as a manipulative force, to get them to endure years and hundreds of in game hours struggling with poorly implemented systems that should be streamlined.
We Have T3 with all the man hours that went into that... that will in the end only effect less than %1 of Eve in the years to come, while funding for overhauling the UI would effect everyone in Eve immediately is such a positive way.
BumBum maybe you need to take your head out of yer Arse there lad cuz you have lost site of the issue at hand.
Sillas
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 15:39:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Kaptain Kruncher
And one other thing- Your disparaging remarks about Icelandics and Iceland really **** me off. I lived there for three years and have never found more friendly and interesting people in my life. Icelandics are very open minded and curious people. I never found them to be arrogant or mean.
Being a "good guy" has nothing to do with excellence in any and all fields you work on.
Case in point, the Icelandic economy. Is it in shambles now or isn't it ? And why is it in shambles ? Because they did something that worked in the short run (but was bound to pop sooner or later), they did it on a major scale (one their economy could never hope to match), and they did it in spite of repeated warnings from other consultants and bankers (mainly from Sweeden).
I'm just pointing out facts and a typical mindset here. True, this mindset brought us EVE when nobody else would have dared make such a game, and it worked great partially because of dedicated hard work and stubbornness, partially because of sheer luck... but it can't go on forever like that... hard work can only get you so far if you don't listen carefully to what everybody has to say.
Most of CCP's efforts for the past year (or even longer) have been towards attracting new plyers and making old players come back. Their approach was "shiny new stuff" and "visually appealing stuff".
Now imagine how the retention rates for new players would look like if the game had a much more intuitively designed and easier to use interface... and imagine just how many old players would come back if you tell them all those bits and pieces of bugs and annoyances that eventually got to the point of "the straw that broke the camel's back" and made them want to quit were cleared out ?
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 15:42:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Akita T
and they did it in spite of repeated warnings from other consultants and bankers (mainly from Sweeden).
That's Sviiiden to you… We don't have any stinkin' ‘w’s or ‘ee’s around here, thankyouverymuch.
Ehm… so, anyway…
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Jaffnar Borg
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 16:01:00 -
[119]
Some things I would like to see added to the interface:
- Quick looting - Instead of opening the wreckage, doing ctrl-A and draging everything into my cargo bay, I could just press ctrl while clicking the opening button and then everything gets looted.
- Much more shortcut actions - For example it would be even better, if I could just define a shortcut for "loot all" or one for "unlock target" or one for "disable all modules on target" or one for ... Because in the end, clicking is bad and always inferior to shortcuts. In DAoC we even kicked players out of PvP groups, when we found out that they were clicking their abilities!
- Support for more mouse buttons - I would like to use my thumb button for the circle menu.
|
Ana Vyr
DB - LJ Industries
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 16:46:00 -
[120]
People who love a game the most are often its most fierce critics.
|
ceaon
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 16:51:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Bumbum George
Originally by: Sillas Cov
c)force the use of very basic controls to do time sensitive important tasks.
(example why not a simple button for drones attack selected target, or drones dock up now!
here is a perfect example for a person who wants everything handed to him instead of using his own frecking mind.
you know, there ARE buttons for those tasks you named, you (usually) have at least 105 of them on your KEYBOARD.
i know, i know, assigning buttons on your own would be work and would require people to actually do some thinking so freck that, ranting is way more fun!
not all the ppl use a keyboard to play eve when you have 1 keyboard for 3 PC having all control on mouse click is very handy
|
TimMc
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 17:33:00 -
[122]
I kind of like the huge wall CCP have setup around this game, it took me 3 tries to get into it and only after I joined a player corp did I understand ANYTHING.
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Grek Forto
Malevolent Intentions
Dark Solar Empire
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 18:34:00 -
[123]
Akita, that was very good post (even though there were bad formatting).
CCP really needs to adress issues their PAYING customers have with their product. They can't simply put things in that they want so they can have their "omgwtfbbq-wonderland MMO" instead of fixing the game.
T3, wtf. Who wanted ship customizing when the UI is crap. Who wanted T3 when pos'es are nightmares to set up. Who wanted T3 when the industry part of the game is pure fail when you compare to what it could be.
Nerf T3 and boost UI!!!!!!!!
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Treelox
Amarr
Seppuku Warriors
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 18:35:00 -
[124]
OP has it right
--
|
Zeknichov
State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 18:56:00 -
[125]
Akita T is right on everything but is lacking one thing I truly believe needs addressed. In fact I would consider it the most important thing that needs addressed.
I've recommended numerous amounts of my friends to play EVE and none have actually stuck with the game. Why? Solo and small gang PvP that a new player can actually engage in, and feel useful in, is non existent.
What do 0.0 alliances tell new players to do? Train interceptors so they can suicide tackle for the bigger ships. No new player wants to tackle, especially since the lifespan of a tackling interceptor is about 10 seconds. New people want to pew pew.
It's the same pattern with every single person I've known in real life whose started playing EVE.
Day 1: They start up EVE and ask me about 1000000000000 questions about the game because as Akita T as already stated, useful info is either non existent or impossible to decipher correctly.
By now they've read online guides about the game detailing information about PvP and how they should do missions to earn isk so they can train PvP skills.
Day 2: I ask all day trying to get them to do PvP but they say no because they are doing missions to earn more isk. Besides they tell me, they would be useless in their t1 frigate. No I ensure them, if they equip their frigate to tackle I can use my mids for other things and they won't be useless at all. But alas I don't sound very convincing, they've already made it up in their mind that until they can fly battleships and HACs they are useless.
Day 3: They tell me their great story about how they completed some lvl 2 mission in their Caldari ship. I'm pretty torn at this point, I want them to enjoy the game but I know if they keep mission running it won't be long before they quit the game out of boredom.
I suggest we join the militia. After briefly explaining the militia to them they see absolutely no reason to join it. I mean why would they? A bunch of disadvantages for no advantage except war targets? A new player isn't concerned about who they can shoot at, they are concerned with their skills and isk. The militia is just a way to lose isk.
Day 3: They don't log on. I already know what's happening.
Day 7: I ask them in real life why they aren't playing EVE. They tell me they just got bored. I tell them of course they got bored you didn't PvP why don't you come PvP with me.
Day 8: They log on, I get them to equip a frigate as a tackler and we finally go PvP.
We roam low-sec for an hour but find no targets or targets we can't possibly kill. I bring us into 0.0 to look for a solo target... none to be found and now we're hunted by a large roaming gang. I bring us back to low-sec and suggest we get more people. I grab a bunch of friends of mine and now we're a good sized blob.
Yeah we finally found a target. I tell me friend to warp to me... by the time he figures out how to do this the targets already dead. This continues till he gets bored.
That is a new players experience in a nutshell. He might stick around and do some more missions longer but eventually he will get bored because there is no room for PvP in EVE for new players unless you blob up.
No matter how much you try convincing a new player a t1 frigate with tackling gear is useful, lets face it... They really aren't. A 2 year vet has a better chance of tackling ships in a BS than a new player. They are really just along for the ride when it comes to PvP and people don't like this. People want to be a part of the action.
What do they do? They treat the game as if it's WoW and they aren't max level yet so they grind until they hit lvl 80 which happens to be 1B isk and the ability to fly BS+HACs but by they time this will happen they would have quit out of boredom. I'd rather level in WoW than grind isk in missions all day in EVE, it's a lot more fun and that is the conclusion a new player comes to.
|
Zeknichov
State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 19:13:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Zeknichov on 03/04/2009 19:14:01
I ran out of room to say how I felt solving this issue could be done.
Jump Freighters need to go:
Logistics from 0.0 to Empire is far too easy and not dangerous at all with the introduction of jump freighters. Moving things from empire to 0.0 should be a dangerous task.
Mining vs Missions: Mining should be the more profitable choice by far:
Mining requires dedicated skills that are useless for anything except mining to accomplish. Mission running skills ties in with PvP skills and due to that alone mining should be more profitable. The other reason mining should be more profitable is it's far riskier to mine in low-sec than it is to run missions.
Once mining is far greater than mission running in making isk, something needs to be done to bring mineral prices back in line to what they were 6 years ago. Low-sec should be very profitable in comparison to Empire, so much so that people will want to mine in low-sec even with the possibility of being killed.
This will never happen if running empire missions is even close to on par with mining in low-sec. Low-sec mining needs to yield at least double the profits of empire mission running.
Sorry I had a lot more ideas to solve this problem with more details almost a year ago, I just got back into EVE last week so I haven't finished wrapping my head around the economic mechanics. All I know is risk vs reward is completely out of whack in EVE and it needs to be changed. I don't care how many people CCP thinks they will lose if they nerf empire, but it needs to be done. Its needed it for years.
|
Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 20:10:00 -
[127]
Akita, i see you don't reply to considered imput as provided by the excellent post by "kanojo1969"
why is that........
.... Yeah, because he's right.
...... continues overleaf. |
Billy Sastard
Amarr
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 20:14:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Zeknichov
...risk vs reward is completely out of whack in EVE and it needs to be changed. I don't care how many people CCP thinks they will lose if they nerf empire, but it needs to be done. Its needed it for years.
I feel Zek makes a good point here.
<------------------------------------------------->
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein |
Xaen
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 20:45:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Akita T
HORRIBLE USER INTERFACE
If you really tried to make it as hard to use as possible, and make it LESS ergonomic with each iteration... you succeeded.
Case in point, the new scan probe interface. The new map. The same old corp interface for ages. The science&industry tab. And I could go on and on.
You tout an UI design team, but... umm... nothing that REALLY NEEDED an improvement got one, and some of the new stuff that got improved is worse than the stuff it replaces.
The only couple of "meh" results (as in, not complete UI design failures) are the fleet and drone UI (which only underwent minor changes)... and the jury is still out on the new fiting screen (it's got better stuff, and it's got worse stuff).
And... yeah... absolutely NO USER CUSTOMISATION ?!?
A man after my own heart.
Also, you're wasting your breath.
Two solid years of trying on my part accomplished absolutely nothing. Despite the indisputable fact that it is one of two facets of the game that affects 100.000% of players that log in.
CCP just does not care enough for it to matter.
-
Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
Clair Bear
Perkone
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 20:53:00 -
[130]
Originally by: kanojo1969
But all-in-all, the UI has much less to do with the success of the product than you probably think.
A good UI is no guarantee of a success. But a truly craptastic UI is a guarantee of failure.
PDAs did not catch on until the Pilot because of ergonomic factors. Once it was easier to use one than a notepad everyone and their dog got one. Do you honestly think $300 hard drive based music players would have become popular if took 30 seconds of fiddling with UI to play a song?
Horrible UIs come about because they're more likely to be designed by a coder on a deadline than not. Heck, I'd code a UI which punches the user in the nose evey few minutes it meant I deliver the feature I'm on the hook for earlier.
But once the prototype is in the users' hands it's time to put some polish on the product. That's how you grow your user base beyond a niche of early adopters willing to "settle."
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 21:04:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Brainless Bimbo
Akita, i see you don't reply to considered imput as provided by the excellent post by "kanojo1969"
why is that........
.... Yeah, because he's right.
Yeah, he's right in that it WOULD be a big effort which for EXISTING users that really got used to the way the interface might not be a HUGE benefit. But he's wrong that it would be pointless - NEW users, the kind CCP is trying to attract, they WOULD greatly benefit from a better UI.
Sure, he's right that a total interface rewrite to allow user customisation might also be a huge effort. But he's wrong about the benefits again. You have EVE players that have created pretty complex programs for specific tasks (I hope I don't have to remind you of EFT, EVE-Mon, EVE HQ, countless wallet and invention/manufacture managers, killboards, rudimentary banking software and so on and so forth), which, while not the pinnacle of UI design themselves, should mean that more likely than not, SOME EVE players, if given the chance, might actually accomplish astonishing features.
He's not OPPOSED to anything I said, quite the contrary, as a self-proclaimed UI expert he says he could speak volumes about just how bad the UI really is compared to what it could be - the only thing we don't agree on is just how beneficial (work needed vs results obtained) some UI revamps would be, and the focus of those revamps.
And then he again agrees with me that consistency is paramount.
So... yeah... I didn't DIRECTLY answer to anything he said because there wasn't much disagreement to begin with.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
FeralShadow
Tactical Gamer Universe LTD
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 21:07:00 -
[132]
Well, interestingly enough, we've all been here and done without even the welcome pages. and we're doin just fine! This isn't "easy mode" so stop whining please :) If we can do it, and I KNOW some of the fellas here have mental disabilities (just for lols), then you can. Buck up.
-Feral
_______________________________________________
"If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura
-CDS Now Taking Contracts-
|
elohllird
Destructive Influence
KenZoku
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 21:33:00 -
[133]
I have to agree with Akita the ui is a bit poo.
But Akita you need to chill abit, there is other things to rage about
|
Astigmatic
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 21:47:00 -
[134]
Quote:
But once the prototype is in the users' hands it's time to put some polish on the product. That's how you grow your user base beyond a niche of early adopters willing to "settle."
This sums up some of the motives behind the change vs no change posts really well. Some (not all) vets may view change as "simplification" and with that a fear of dumbing down. However from what I see Akita T is merely trying to suggest that the UI is optimised. Made better, more informative and more intuitive. There is nothing wrong in that at all. I believe that a UI reiteration is due anyway according to some dev posts so the right course of action is to seize the moment and suggest positive improvements. It will eventually happen, don't duck your head in the sand.
Another poster suggested that 0.0 logistics be made less risk free by deleting Jump Freighters. As my alt is a JF pilot you would expect me to object to this. I don't.
Why? It's because the jump system discourages pvp. Prior to the mass use of jumping, convoys of ships had to escort goods to 0.0. This led to organised escorting for some corps. More use for lower sp pilots to assist as tacklers and ewar or simply cannon fodder or chaff dealers. Yes, it was a pain to transport goods and took organisation, but is that a bad thing? Nowadays, it's almost trivial to jump tons of cargo to war torn areas. Is that seriously a good thing?
Yes, we still have carriers and so on. But maybe that needs to be looked at too. This view will undoubtedly be unpopular, however it is a view and that's all. There are pro's and cons to this as with anything else. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 22:52:00 -
[135]
Originally by: FeralShadow
Well, interestingly enough, we've all been here and done without even the welcome pages. and we're doin just fine!
And how many more people YOU know that might have ended up loving EVE left simply because they were too frustrated by all those "little things" this thread talks about ?
How many times have you had to explain to a potential new EVE player that just started his trial the basics of just about everything, because the tutorial and the other information available to him from the start were "just a tad bit harder than average" to get to in a timely fashion ?
And how many of them gave up saying "nah, thanks but no thanks, that's too much to bother reading and understanding before doing anything that even remotely resembles fun" ?
And by the way, EVE also needs stupid (but enthusiastic) people.
Stupid people are those that you can manipulate into doing all the things you need done, but can't be bothered to
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2009.04.03 23:27:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Zeknichov
That is an Unreal Tournament players experience in a nutshell.
Fixed. While I agree with your suggested changes, especially re:mining, your example new player experience is based around someone who will probably never enjoy EVE. No amount of changes will make this an instant gratification mindless PvP game. Though in fairness FW does come as close as EVE ever could.
Originally by: Akita T
"nah, thanks but no thanks, that's too much to bother reading and understanding before doing anything that even remotely resembles fun"
This is not the game for anyone who would ever say that. As with Zek, you are using the exmaple of someone who is looking for instant gratification over a deeper and more satisfying experience. Sure, the UI will scare these people away, as will just about every aspect of the game. A subtle straw man.
Perhaps you are right that EVE could use more 'stupid' people, but I'd rather CCP fix the issues that (significantly) affect those of us already here, the niche that the game is supposedly aimed at, before attempting to lower to bar for entry.
As for your questions, of 2 people I know in / have introduced to EVE, I have had to explain the basics to 0 (0%) of them, and 0 (0%) of them gave up. Also 0 (0%) ever mentioned the UI.
-
DesuSigs |
Rufis Dangerfield
|
Posted - 2009.04.04 00:27:00 -
[137]
Given the apparent importance of storylines when it suits CCP, and the longevity of the game, a general policy of 'nerfing by evolution of technology' rather than 'by nerf bat de-evolution to specific ships/modules while you're sleeping' would be nice.
|
Haalanii
|
Posted - 2009.04.04 00:36:00 -
[138]
CCP's biggest crime as a game company is that it stubbornly refuses to allow UI mods.
Modding has enhanced the play experience of every MMO I've subscribed to and the most prominent example in this thread, WoW, has plenty of examples of inaccurate tool-tips and clunky UI features that were made infinitely better by the tireless efforts of players. One example being the fact that the default UI does not (or at least did not for a long time) figure the impact of a spell-caster's equipment in the damage a spell will actually do (much like how Eve lacks measures of DPS, tanking and cap-stability).
Eve forces you to use EFT to plan out a fitting properly or measure DPS, tanking and cap stability. In WoW, there are countless mods that will replace in-game tool-tips with accurate information. There is much less need to tab out of the game and run a 3rd party program just to get a general feel for the stats of your ship. This is all thanks to the player-run mod community. Why on earth are we stifling something like that in OUR game?
Some examples...
WoW's Default UI (ok it looks like it has "fu-bar" running but more-or-less untouched):
Wow is a 3-D game but generally the combat is on a plane flat enough to see what's around you without an overview. That said, the basic idea of "target this" "damage numbers appear" "move around" "teleport/jump/warp when leaving" has to be managed visually. The default WoW UI does a good job of displaying damage dealt to and by your character. The Eve UI puts these numbers in a box at the middle of your screen and they often scroll by so fast you must use the awkward combat log (or even text file game logs) to see what transpired in detail. So, how does modding improve this?
Goodle image search result for a modded WoW UI
^ Look at how clean the ui is with modded windows. He has tons of health bars, meters and timing mods running with no clutter. Nearly every window, bar and button has been improved. It's not just aesthetic, it adds functionality.
Want to mod a specific window or tool in detail? Here's an example of a combat log that has been modded with colored text and simple formatting to allow easy comprehension during combat. Why can't we have the freedom to do this in Eve?
How about mods that track performance in a fight as a whole AND by damage dealt to specific opponents? WTB this mod for fleet battles in Eve.
And then, of course, there are purely aesthetic changes (this one is very appropriate for wow)
The possibilities are endless when you allow people to use their creativity for positive changes to the UI. I think that market data evaluation could be made 1000x easier by a mod similar to WoW's auctioneer as an example.
|
Easley Thames
The Maverick Navy
PuPPet MasTers
|
Posted - 2009.04.04 00:41:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Easley Thames on 04/04/2009 00:42:25
Akita T is correct on all accounts and I really find it hilarious that some of you think that making the new player experience more informative / useful is a bad thing. I taught myself a ton by reading OUT OF GAME and watching videos OUT OF GAME and essentially would never have learned much without being a hardcore gamer with tons of free time (at that point anyway).
Regardless of the NPE, the UI is bad for all of us. It just is. I support modding as I've said before and would love to hear CCP explain why they are so adamantly opposed to it.
EDIT - You posters who say "the game is good stop crying" are missing the point. We love the game and that's why we care at all. I'd like to see my game improve.
|
Nerogk Shorn
Caldari
Royal Hiigaran Navy
SCUM.
|
Posted - 2009.04.04 01:13:00 -
[140]
Hey, Akita T. I'm not saying that your issues have been brought up dozens of times before, but i'd wager a bet they have. I will say that, though i love EVE, you are exactly right in your analysis. However, using that tone expressing your disgust at how CCP functions probably will get you nowhere. You totally deserve to use that tone, because anyone who sees half of what is happening should be as frustrated as you are. It's just that when CCP are straight up confronted by those evil truths, they stubbornly recede back into their shells and refuse to acknowledge the existence of this thread, as well as the problems you mentioned.
BTW: About two weeks ago I started playing Master of Orion II again. Working my way up to Impossible. Finally beat a Huge map on impossible after about the third try AND beat the highest score. /me flexes It truly is a fantastic game.
Have you ever played Star Trek: Birth of the Federation, which is also made by Microprose and is remarkably similar to MOOII. They sadly got rid of the specific researching and ship design, but made up for it in other parts (like come on Star Trek theme anyone??)
The Bulbasaur Wizard
D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.04 04:33:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Nerogk Shorn
Have you ever played Star Trek: Birth of the Federation
Yeah, but it was not the same, even if somewhat enjoyable... way too simplified (especially the research), and the part I loved most about MoO2 (the ship-to-ship combat) was quite pathetic in BotF.
Originally by: Nerogk Shorn
It's just that when CCP are straight up confronted by those evil truths, they stubbornly recede back into their shells and refuse to acknowledge the existence of this thread, as well as the problems you mentioned.
Well, if you ask nicely they don't do much... if you ask the CSM, you don't get enough support because other things are more obvious to the general public... so what's there left to do other than verbally challenge CCP in here, however futile it might seem ?
_
The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2009.04.04 05:12:00 -
[142]
because "learning how to play" is the only real challenge in eve. If they gave out a rule-book it'd be like a cheat-code. Nothing interesting left to do... or not much at least.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.04 05:17:00 -
[143]
Edited by: Akita T on 04/04/2009 05:17:34
Originally by: Ris Dnalor
because "learning how to play" is the only real challenge in eve
/facepalm
[sarcasm]
Seriously ? That's the ONLY challenge in EVE ?
Everybody might as well stop playing then !
And here I though the challenge was supposed to be in competing against other players, not against the user interface.
[/sarcasm]
_
The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Clair Bear
Perkone
|
Posted - 2009.04.04 06:28:00 -
[144]
Have those of you arguing with Akita tried the industrial side of eve?
It's an RSI-causing clickfest. My forearms are bigger than Popeye's from all the freaking "click click right click click click type click click" x 10 x 9 alts I do every day. And that's just to start production jobs.
This isn't challenging or rewarding. It's bad UI for bad UI's sake. Yes if all you do is gate camp the UI isn't that bad -- control click and F1. The rest of the game is unapproachable.
If CCP designed a car you'd have to pump the gas once per MPH you wanted to accelerate. There would be no brakes, you would "stop" by driving around in a small circle. And instead of a windshield you'd have a periscope. The speedometer, tachometer and fuel gauge would look identical and switch places randomly. The speedometer wouldn't display your actual speed, it would display something like "1% of maximum velocity." Where 1% was actually 10%, and maximum velocity could only be determined through experimentation.
And they'd sell about 5 cars a year to masochists pretending to be "hardcore."
|
F'nog
Amarr
Celestial Horizon Corp.
I.C.C Industrial Drive Yards
|
Posted - 2009.04.04 07:47:00 -
[145]
I can't believe that anyone here could be arguing some of Akita's points.
Let's just look at numbers.
AM ammo (as just one example among countless ) on the old Item Database listed Range Modifier as +50% when it is really -50%. How was this not changed?
Or maybe some of you remember when MSMs were introduced and they listed a 160% bonus to yield when it was really 1.6 times. This is just basic math we're talking about, but CCP apparently couldn't be arsed to list it correctly.
I don't expect miracles in UI design or coding, but such simple foundations for the game should be expressed clearly, especially because it's so easy to do it correctly. Yet they don't, and haven't corrected it for years. That could really turn off players to the game, and probably has.
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
Originally by: Chribba
Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero! /me bows
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Kowaii Rabbit
o1nk
|
Posted - 2009.04.04 08:21:00 -
[146]
Originally by: F'nog
I can't believe that anyone here could be arguing some of Akita's points.
Let's just look at numbers.
AM ammo (as just one example among countless ) on the old Item Database listed Range Modifier as +50% when it is really -50%. How was this not changed?
Or maybe some of you remember when MSMs were introduced and they listed a 160% bonus to yield when it was really 1.6 times. This is just basic math we're talking about, but CCP apparently couldn't be arsed to list it correctly.
I'm still trying to work out the Covert Ops Skill Bonus description for the Stealth Bomber: multiplies the cloaked velocity by 125% per level.
http://www.ezy-english.com/ |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.04 14:50:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Clair Bear
car analogy
funny because it's almost completely true...
_
The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Neo Omni
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.04.04 21:45:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Jennifer Celeste
anyone else find it ironic that the OP is still PAYING to play?
It's not ironic. It's just that the OP see all the lost potential in this game. What other game out there comes close to EVE? None.
Yet, EVE is so pew-pew centered, that alot of the "soft" elements of the game are subpar.
CCP focuses on the future with ambulation and expansion, but could someone please focus on the small trivial things about the game that we are forced to overlook because "EVE is such a great game?"
EVE is NOT noob friendly. It's survival of the fittest (as my fifth alt has learned after a few months of play).
There really has to be a very detailed introduction to all elements of game play.
CCP sanctioned scams (ie undeliverable courier contracts) also need to be documented so new players know what is going on.
I'm with the OP on this one. EVE can be so much more...thus the frustration, and the hope while I continue to pay my sub every month.
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Haalanii
|
Posted - 2009.04.05 00:38:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Clair Bear
If CCP designed a car you'd have to pump the gas once per MPH you wanted to accelerate. There would be no brakes, you would "stop" by driving around in a small circle. And instead of a windshield you'd have a periscope. The speedometer, tachometer and fuel gauge would look identical and switch places randomly. The speedometer wouldn't display your actual speed, it would display something like "1% of maximum velocity." Where 1% was actually 10%, and maximum velocity could only be determined through experimentation.
And they'd sell about 5 cars a year to masochists pretending to be "hardcore."
Lol this is so true!
|
Franga
NQX Innovations
|
Posted - 2009.04.05 02:34:00 -
[150]
I love how Akita T always posts in such constructive and positive ways. Never with a hint of condescension or arrogance.
Also, whilst I agree with the whole 'point out what needs to be fixed rather than be nothing but a fanboi' approach, but can you please presnet to us forum *****s your entire digital and online gaming development portfolio?
kthxbye
----------
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.05 08:17:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Akita T on 05/04/2009 08:20:27
Originally by: Franga
Also, whilst I agree with the whole 'point out what needs to be fixed rather than be nothing but a fanboi' approach, but can you please presnet to us forum *****s your entire digital and online gaming development portfolio?
For all you know I could be a game developer for Blizzard myself. Or, I could be a janitor at a mental insitution. But maybe I am something else entirely.
What I do in real-life has absolutely no relevance whatsoever when talking facts. And fact is, EVE has plenty of things where a little effort in polishing would go a long way (but are almost never done), while a lot of effort is almost completely wasted on things used by a tiny minority of users instead (and that's almost contantly done).
Originally by: Franga
I love how Akita T always posts in such constructive and positive ways. Never with a hint of condescension or arrogance.
Oh, I'm one of the moderate ones. You should see Xaen on a bad day talking about the UI... and he's not the only one.
It is constructive posting, but I abandoned being all polite and considerate a while ago, just not worth the effort.
_
The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Griller SW
Gallente
Sliders SW
|
Posted - 2009.04.05 09:15:00 -
[152]
I read the OP and maybe the first couple of pages...
For posterity, my two takes on this issue are:
A) CCP does this on purpose to drive new players mad and make them go kill stuff. I suppose its working on a level
B) More probable is that CCP makes stuff complex/complicated on purpose to turn this into "Virtual Job Online" and hence make this a HUGE time sink in RL... Guess where that leads?
Whoever chooses to delve into such complexities MAY become rich and powerful, but over time insanity will set in go out and kill stuff 
PS Sorry, I had to get out of my system
------
No good deed goes unpunished... |
Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2009.04.05 11:08:00 -
[153]
I fully support OP. EVE is good, and can be better. adding new stuff is pointless if there is no intention to maintain it.
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Semkhet
24th Imperial Crusade
|
Posted - 2009.04.05 11:57:00 -
[154]
Frankly, I would expect anyone with two cents of common sense to agree with the spirit of Akita's post. I'm always laughing my ass off when peeps refer to EvE as a "complex" game. If you want to play a complex game, you play Chess or Go for ex, but not EvE.
The main complexity of EvE is just the by-result of CCP's endemic tendency to bury substance under a myriad of ill-conceived details. Usually, the time lost figuring out how things EFFECTIVELY work only seem insignificant to those who don't value their time, as simple as that.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.05 16:21:00 -
[155]
And before I forget, the forum itself.
As if it's not bad enough that it randomly logs you out (thank you EVE forums for the "ctrl-a, crtl-c before clicking post reply" OCD), its latest incarnation also lags worse than Jita most of the time.
_
The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Nerogk Shorn
Caldari
Royal Hiigaran Navy
SCUM.
|
Posted - 2009.04.06 01:14:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Nerogk Shorn
Have you ever played Star Trek: Birth of the Federation
Yeah, but it was not the same, even if somewhat enjoyable... way too simplified (especially the research), and the part I loved most about MoO2 (the ship-to-ship combat) was quite pathetic in BotF.
Yeah, sadly the research aspect was essentially eliminated from the game. With the lack of variety of the ships (as you can't design them) there are such limited choices you can really do. The game is way more expansive in terms of morale and diplomacy however. Sadly they really botched the building upgrade system imo. Both have their merits. (Star Trek... come on!)
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Nerogk Shorn
It's just that when CCP are straight up confronted by those evil truths, they stubbornly recede back into their shells and refuse to acknowledge the existence of this thread, as well as the problems you mentioned.
Well, if you ask nicely they don't do much... if you ask the CSM, you don't get enough support because other things are more obvious to the general public... so what's there left to do other than verbally challenge CCP in here, however futile it might seem ?
No, you misunderstood my point. I wasn't really arguing for you to ask nicely about it either. I meant that when confronted by these evil truths, CCP will do it's best to stubbornly ignore them regardless. It's hopeless unless intelligent (and popular?) people like you bring it to attention of the masses. Even though I love this game as much as anyone, I'm also very critical of it. I want it to be as good as it can be, and right now it fails in some aspects.
I am not really sure how to get the masses motivated. Trying change a single problem at a time might be a way, though people get sick of "this same old **** again." Also, people have gotten used to these problems and dont' see them as much any more. All they see is you bashing their favorite game.
There is also a definite element of people thinking "well I had to work hard to get past all these difficulties learning the game and getting good, so why should all these noobies have all this help." They are afraid of giving new players advantages or a head start they never had. Unfortunately instinct or human nature not to give a younger generation advantages when they aren't aiding you in any way. People need to learn to stop thinking only of themselves and people close to them and start helping strangers they may never meet again.
The Bulbasaur Wizard
D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.06 14:07:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Nerogk Shorn
I am not really sure how to get the masses motivated.
Nothing short of a full-blown scandal seems to do the trick, and even then, they forget really fast and not always draw the right conclusions...
_
The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
|
Posted - 2009.04.06 14:29:00 -
[158]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 06/04/2009 14:37:47
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 06/04/2009 14:32:42
I got bored of the mindless 'hey look ma I'm here on the forums again saying how I'm so great and you're so crap' from the usual arrogant suspects after two pages of the drivel, so apologies if I'm repeating something that was said before.
Akita, I'm with you on this one. I hated some of your previous posts, but I think a good wakeup call to developers is a good thing every so often. It stops one resting on one's laurels. However, I don't actually believe CCP are resting on their laurels. They appear from the comments they've made to be suffering from the exact same problem my own software company suffers from - too many damn things to do at once and not enough resources to do it.
Absolutely every one of your points contains validity, even if people want to argue over the details because it's the thing to do in forums - debate over minutiae rather than accepting the concept.
Part of the problem is mind-set. The existing veteran community has this warm fuzzy feeling of superiority that they did X before it 'became easier' and thus trumpet loudly every time the game is 'dumbed down'. What a lot seem to confuse is usability vs difficulty, ease of access vs ease of success in-game. I want a cold harsh world but I see no reason to have a cold harsh user interface into that world. That covers everything from NPE to docs to UI to decent design.
Equally Malcanis' point about discovering things on your own - this isn't 2003 any more. To attract and retain gamers in larger numbers, inevitably you must say to them 'hey look at all this stuff you could end up doing!'. You can't simply say 'well, there's all this stuff out there for you to find, good luck!' - it just doesn't have a wide enough appeal.
There's a difference between hand-holding all the way and throwing in at the deep end, in a game that does not reward failure. Players can lose everything in this game, and rightly so; it's a core principle. Thus anyone embarking on, say, a major industrial venture like setting up for T2 or T3 is going to want precise details about how it all works to evaluate and mitigate their risk. That damn well ought to be in the documentation. The risk in-game should not be 'oh well nobody told me that I needed that item for that purpose until I tried it personally, why the hell isn't that written down!?'. That's just moronic.
This is an RPG, a window into another world, and the inhabitants of that world damn well know how stuff works. The UI and docs should reflect that. T2 & T3 manufacturing isn't R&D. It's a series of well-defined steps. If at some point CCP genuinely implement R&D then by all means then there can be mystery. Until then, some decent UI & docs wouldn't go amiss. The same goes for virtually every other activity in EVE.
As I said, I have every empathy for CCP in that there's many things they'd like to improve and lack the resources to do right now. I work in the same field and face the same issues on a daily basis. However I do feel that the game is rapidly approaching the point where the more core aspects like UI and NPE and docs are holding the game back when compared to other PvP games. Take a look at Warhammer (some will immediately latch on troll-like and say 'you're comparing apples and oranges' but I'm not, it's just another piece of software). It's got bugs but it's a pretty polished PvP game with a great moddable UI that makes both PvE & PvP fun and accessible. There's no reason why EVE cannot learn from that software design and others whilst retaining its own core game principles. To say that it cannot is the height of hubris, and why software products ultimately fail. That is not dumbing down, that's taking good ideas and applying them.
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties...
Environmental Effects
|
Dana Thei
|
Posted - 2009.04.06 14:50:00 -
[159]
Edited by: Dana Thei on 06/04/2009 14:52:26
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
To say that it cannot is the height of hubris, and why software products ultimately fail. That is not dumbing down, that's taking good ideas and applying them.
Oh Man..... so well said!!
Annoying the hell out of your new subs is not a long term business strategy for a MMO.
Nor is driving off your hard cores players by wearing them out with crap UI issues. 
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.07 19:48:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
However I do feel that the game is rapidly approaching the point where the more core aspects like UI and NPE and docs are holding the game back when compared to other PvP games.
Quoting the most relevant part of an awesome post.
_
The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Elurahu Melve'lyn
|
Posted - 2009.04.07 20:16:00 -
[161]
I so condone Akita's point of view - The EVE UI is without a trace of doubt the worst thing about EVE.
It is evidently the result of programmers having to make the UI while they were making the game.
-----------------------------------------
I love deadlines. Especially the whoosing sound they make when they fly by. |
Xianbei
|
Posted - 2009.04.07 20:30:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Malcanis
If you're the kind of person for whom learning isn't fun then so sorry, wrong game etc.
total failure in comprehension of the OP
so maybe learning to read would be a good starting point for you ?
|
Tykkis
|
Posted - 2009.04.07 20:35:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Akita T
HORRIBLE USER INTERFACE
If you really tried to make it as hard to use as possible, and make it LESS ergonomic with each iteration... you succeeded.
Case in point, the new scan probe interface. The new map. The same old corp interface for ages. The science&industry tab. And I could go on and on.
You tout an UI design team, but... umm... nothing that REALLY NEEDED an improvement got one, and some of the new stuff that got improved is worse than the stuff it replaces.
The only couple of "meh" results (as in, not complete UI design failures) are the fleet and drone UI (which only underwent minor changes)... and the jury is still out on the new fiting screen (it's got better stuff, and it's got worse stuff).
And... yeah... absolutely NO USER CUSTOMISATION ?!?
Your CAPS are very much justified but you're being too kind.
I'm quite sure CCP team have skipped the user interface classes. Most important ones.
CCP said they are focusing more on the stuff that everyone gets to see. It's the UI guys... is it the same you did in the beginning?
too bad i'm kind too. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
|
Posted - 2009.04.07 20:52:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Franga
I love how Akita T always posts in such constructive and positive ways. Never with a hint of condescension or arrogance.
Oh, I'm one of the moderate ones. You should see Xaen on a bad day talking about the UI... and he's not the only one.
It is constructive posting, but I abandoned being all polite and considerate a while ago, just not worth the effort.
Hey maybe I should start another round of threads on hi-sec missioning, just to make you look fluffy and cuddly?
|
Deadeye Devie
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.04.07 21:45:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 02/04/2009 17:57:48
Originally by: Digital Solaris
Originally by: Cailais
reserved ? What for?
Bellum's psychic powers? Akita doing a spell-check? Find out tomorrow!
Find out in a couple of minutes (as in, now), actually
Originally by: Malcanis
I kind of disagree. EvE is much more interesting when you don't know how stuff works. It's the discovery that's fun.
If you're the kind of person for whom learning isn't fun then so sorry, wrong game etc.
It's one thing to learn from information that's readily available at the push of a button.
It's another thing to learn by reading a wiki, several subforums, doing a couple of google searches and still coming up with 2-3 different explanations for the same thing, having to actually go on SiSi to test it first to see which one is true or not (if SiSi has the same version as TQ), or trying it on TQ with disastruous consequences.
Let's recall, EVE is essentially a GAME. You don't really want information about a GAME to be nearly as hard to get as information about RL stuff is.
~
TBH, this is exactly what hooked me to eve...the ti8me spent reading, re-reading, practicing, then finding other things out relating to what i was learning to do, by chatting to players and trawling sites....most games explain everything to u...what everything does, etc...this one u have to go out of ur way to actually work things out for yourself, which in the end gives u a greater sense of achievement.
I have played pretty much most MMOs and non hyas been as rewarding in itsd sysrems than this one has
Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of themself without that law is both. |
Siramar Thi
|
Posted - 2009.04.07 22:19:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Deadeye Devie
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 02/04/2009 17:57:48
Originally by: Digital Solaris
Originally by: Cailais
reserved ? What for?
Bellum's psychic powers? Akita doing a spell-check? Find out tomorrow!
Find out in a couple of minutes (as in, now), actually
Originally by: Malcanis
I kind of disagree. EvE is much more interesting when you don't know how stuff works. It's the discovery that's fun.
If you're the kind of person for whom learning isn't fun then so sorry, wrong game etc.
It's one thing to learn from information that's readily available at the push of a button.
It's another thing to learn by reading a wiki, several subforums, doing a couple of google searches and still coming up with 2-3 different explanations for the same thing, having to actually go on SiSi to test it first to see which one is true or not (if SiSi has the same version as TQ), or trying it on TQ with disastruous consequences.
Let's recall, EVE is essentially a GAME. You don't really want information about a GAME to be nearly as hard to get as information about RL stuff is.
~
TBH, this is exactly what hooked me to eve...the ti8me spent reading, re-reading, practicing, then finding other things out relating to what i was learning to do, by chatting to players and trawling sites....most games explain everything to u...what everything does, etc...this one u have to go out of ur way to actually work things out for yourself, which in the end gives u a greater sense of achievement.
I have played pretty much most MMOs and non hyas been as rewarding in itsd sysrems than this one has
I agree with the OP. I remember as a brand new player thinking that, well, the whole game seems a little secretive. The in-game data is poor, the wikis are fairly horrid, so if you want to find a lot of informetion, you're left running back and forth between 6 websites, trying to put together a puzzle. It doesn't give a warm fuzzy feeling to figure something out, cuz there is no "aha, so this is it," moment; it's a jumble of confusion that you're not sure about, for quite a while.
This doesn't really fit in with the whole UI debate, but I've heard this "sense of discovery/learning" thing being thrown around. Any1 ever play Freelancer for PC? THAT game filled me with gooey discovery filling.
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Karash Amerius
Evolution
KenZoku
|
Posted - 2009.04.07 22:39:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Karash Amerius on 07/04/2009 22:40:00
You know Akita...CCP is not going to hire you, as much as you aspire to be a game designer.
Why don't you just take a crack at making your own game? While many of your points are valid, the style and tone you display here discounts the finished product of your threads.
____________________________________________
"Fighting Broke" - An Ex-Merc Blog |
Mors Magne
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
|
Posted - 2009.04.07 23:42:00 -
[168]
Personally, I really enjoy finding out how things work by using EFT and EveMon.
I suppose CCP could include their own versions in-game.
However, I'd much rather CCP spent their time developing Walking In Stations.
It's Walking In Stations that will really draw even more punters in, methinks.
The NEW M.Corp Data Hub - Check it out! |
Clair Bear
Perkone
|
Posted - 2009.04.08 03:46:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Karash Amerius
Edited by: Karash Amerius on 07/04/2009 22:40:00
You know Akita...CCP is not going to hire you, as much as you aspire to be a game designer.
Why don't you just take a crack at making your own game? While many of your points are valid, the style and tone you display here discounts the finished product of your threads.
I don't have to want to manufacture my own AMC Gremlin to know it's not a very good car. Raising capital and running a company have very little to do with creating decent user interfaces.
As for your other point, abrasive tone, noise and tantrums are the only approaches shown to work in 2009. This isn't 2003 and eve is too big for developers to deal with players in any kind of amicable, intimate setting. Only a thunderous cacophony of whine has any chance at all of resulting in positive (with some luck) change.
|
FOl2TY8
Garoun Investment Bank
|
Posted - 2009.04.08 04:09:00 -
[170]
As a casual player you bring up some good points Akita. The problems that you mention don't effect my game play though. Maybe if everything is improved I may notice the difference but for now it doesn't bother me at all. Then again I am pretty patient and it takes a lot to tick me off.
----------
This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve |
Tesal
|
Posted - 2009.04.08 06:26:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Neo Omni
Originally by: Jennifer Celeste
anyone else find it ironic that the OP is still PAYING to play?
It's not ironic. It's just that the OP see all the lost potential in this game. What other game out there comes close to EVE? None.
Yet, EVE is so pew-pew centered, that alot of the "soft" elements of the game are subpar.
CCP focuses on the future with ambulation and expansion, but could someone please focus on the small trivial things about the game that we are forced to overlook because "EVE is such a great game?"
EVE is NOT noob friendly. It's survival of the fittest (as my fifth alt has learned after a few months of play).
There really has to be a very detailed introduction to all elements of game play.
CCP sanctioned scams (ie undeliverable courier contracts) also need to be documented so new players know what is going on.
I'm with the OP on this one. EVE can be so much more...thus the frustration, and the hope while I continue to pay my sub every month.
Not really.
One thing that drives me crazy is that the game creates a situation where to do almost anything requires trust, and on the other hand, there are almost no tools for security verification and limiting risk and theft and espionage are rampant as a result. Tools do not exist for setting up decent team structures that control risk. This combination of poor security and the need to trust people acts as an arbitrary limit on how many people you can have involved in a project. You have to know them and trust them with everything you have or you can't have them involved at all, and there is no middle ground. And even if you get security right, the security restricts the wrong things and there isn't any interoperability of assets across an alliance.
I would add that the entire point of gameplay is shifting as a result, and is moving from being a game of internet spaceships to being a game about stealing and griefing because security is so weak and game play requires trusted activity. Its clear the way to beat people isn't to shoot them, its to steal from them, grief them from within and sabotage their organization. Thats how you fight in EvE now. The UI is the battleground, not space.
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Ivalobon
|
Posted - 2009.04.08 06:59:00 -
[172]
MMORGÆs use subliminal messaging to addict players to the game that is why you become addicted to boring mmorg type game. It takes less than 2 days of playing mmorgÆs to become addicted. Ever wander why you suddenly start to crave chocolate while playing, it is the subliminal messaging you are being subjected to whilst playing
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ivar R'dhak
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.04.08 11:44:00 -
[173]
Yeah, be nice if we could leave the psych-major theories out of this discussion.
Originally by: ivar R'dhak
Making EVE hard to get, to weed out the so called WOW morons isnŠt only elitist, itŠs plain stupid. All youŠre getting is a different kind of moron, namely the geeky morons.
A particularly irritating moron subspecies, as this thread again proves.
EVE has NO UI.
It has menus.
I somewhere read, that the cardinal sin of a game developer is to make his game look like the OS. Well CCP got that one right.
(selfquote 4tw)
CCP is obviously in a GUI rut, as is the whole computer industry, BTW.
The radial menu approach is a good one, it just has to be more consequent.
I almost barfed when I saw the right-click menu on the ambulation previews.
Ridiculous.
You can pile only so much sh!t on the right-click menu, until it becomes unusable.
Watch the TED talk on BumpTop for another inspiring GUI approach.
_
Mal-`Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?Š
Zoe-ŠBig damn heroes sir.Š
Mal-ŠAint we just.Š |
Rogue Lilly
Caldari
Lords Of Filth
|
Posted - 2009.04.08 17:09:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Malcanis
Yeah, and they've been getting them.
EvE doesn't come with good instructions, true. Neither does RL and that gets over 6 billion subs.
And WOW sucks as a game compared to EVE in almost every aspect except hand-holding, but it has far over 10 mil subs, which are voluntary, not "no choice" as RL-the-MMG is
Except for WoW doesn't garner it's status as a good game by tying to achieve the most unintuitive and convoluted UI in history.
I love eve, I really do. But can we please get an interface that doesn't feel like I'm playing "Microsoft Office the Great Adventure." Simple things that every other MMO has like hotkeys (decent ones) and tasks done over and over like setting orbit distance not taking a string of actions. Really I have never played a game where my mouse was the ONLY way to almost every task in the game.
why can't i set hotkeys for orbit at 1000 and another one for orbit at 5000 and so on?
making something more complicated does not make it better.
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Maxpie
Cross Roads
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Posted - 2009.04.08 17:28:00 -
[175]
While I wouldn't mind improvements to the UI and the many other things that can use them, I really don't get the OP. I've never had a problem doing what I want to do or figuring out what I need to figure out in Eve, and believe me, I'm no genius (just ask my wife). Just because something could be better does not mean it is worthless or broken.
He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things. |
kor anon
Amarr
Seerauber-Vereinigung
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Posted - 2009.04.08 17:57:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Zylithi
Edited by: Zylithi on 02/04/2009 18:04:46
In my mind, eve only has one, and one only, problem:
Quote:
SOCKET: CLOSED
(and, just to make you feel better, the 100 mil you just spent on fighters is now gone)
Yeah what the hell is that ****ing thing? Ive lost several hundred million isk worth of ships and modules because of that poxxy d/c. I've tried petitioning but i get the standard "it's not our fault, **** you" response
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Bethlamar Sigmundsson
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Posted - 2009.04.08 22:04:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Siramar Thi
I agree with the OP. I remember as a brand new player thinking that, well, the whole game seems a little secretive. The in-game data is poor, the wikis are fairly horrid, so if you want to find a lot of informetion, you're left running back and forth between 6 websites, trying to put together a puzzle. It doesn't give a warm fuzzy feeling to figure something out, cuz there is no "aha, so this is it," moment; it's a jumble of confusion that you're not sure about, for quite a while.
This doesn't really fit in with the whole UI debate, but I've heard this "sense of discovery/learning" thing being thrown around. Any1 ever play Freelancer for PC? THAT game filled me with gooey discovery filling.[/quote
Freelancer was good but all in all i felt it a little empty and flat...the whole secretive part of all the facts needed to fly a ship is what i realy found myself compelled to play...then again i dont have a TV, and prefer to read books, paint, build my own persistent world for NWN, and have fun creating unique and interesting characters for online RPGs as well as pen-and-paper campaigns. That said, i dont roleplay in EvE...it just doesnt lend itsself to that!
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Arkyk
Viper Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.08 22:25:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Mors Magne
However, I'd much rather CCP spent their time developing Walking In Stations.
It's Walking In Stations that will really draw even more punters in, methinks.
For some reason, I have this vision of me continuously right-clicking my character to select "Step Forward" . . .
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.09 00:18:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Arkyk
For some reason, I have this vision of me continuously right-clicking my character to select "Step Forward" . . .
No... better... right click, "bodily functions" -> "lungs" -> "breathe in" / "breathe out". Or else you die, suffocated.
_
The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Kusum Fawn
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.04.09 01:52:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Clair Bear
I don't have to want to manufacture my own AMC Gremlin to know it's not a very good car.
! the gremlin was a great car as long as you didnt try to drive or look at it, whats your problem?
Meh, |
Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.04.09 03:21:00 -
[181]
Edited by: Clair Bear on 09/04/2009 03:21:37
Edited by: Clair Bear on 09/04/2009 03:21:21
Originally by: Arkyk
For some reason, I have this vision of me continuously right-clicking my character to select "Step Forward" . . .
Actually, the controls for ambulation HAVE already been released. This is a flash game based on Eve's ambulation interface.
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Comstr
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.09 06:18:00 -
[182]
CCP's vision is a game they can play. One where a crappy UI makes it easy to scam people. One where vets in high skilled pilots kill new players with ease and in complete risk-free environment. One where they don't USE the UI because if any CCP dev had to set up a POS or use the corp interface or play the game without 3rd party software like EveMon.
CCP is like Verant was with Everquest. Once a competitor comes out with a game that's not broken (difficult, but it will happen) we'll all flee this crappy UI, this broken game play and shoot things where it's more fun for everyone and anyone.
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The Riddik
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Posted - 2009.04.09 08:54:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Comstr
CCP's vision is a game they can play. One where a crappy UI makes it easy to scam people. One where vets in high skilled pilots kill new players with ease and in complete risk-free environment. One where they don't USE the UI because if any CCP dev had to set up a POS or use the corp interface or play the game without 3rd party software like EveMon.
CCP is like Verant was with Everquest. Once a competitor comes out with a game that's not broken (difficult, but it will happen) we'll all flee this crappy UI, this broken game play and shoot things where it's more fun for everyone and anyone.
LOL ! this guy is funny, not only is he a goon, but he is a whiny little goon as well.
so lets see what his post really means.... he was scammed cause he was too dumb to read a contract, he has been outclassed and ganked multiple times, he has trouble learning the interface to set up a PoS, ( easy), and apperantly thinks EVEmon, is used as a neccessity, when its not. We can only hope people like this odd fellow will flee EVE when jumpgate comes out
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2009.04.09 08:59:00 -
[184]
While I do agree more documentation would be nice, CCP for the most part has run a good ship.
My greatest complaint of pretty much all MMOs is the time sink required to really do anything in game. It is also probably why most gamers move to a new game about every 7 months. They simply burn out.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
Easley Thames
The Maverick Navy
PuPPet MasTers
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Posted - 2009.04.09 09:40:00 -
[185]
Edited by: Easley Thames on 09/04/2009 09:40:03
Originally by: Comstr
CCP's vision is a game they can play. One where a crappy UI makes it easy to scam people. One where vets in high skilled pilots kill new players with ease and in complete risk-free environment. One where they don't USE the UI because if any CCP dev had to set up a POS or use the corp interface or play the game without 3rd party software like EveMon.
CCP is like Verant was with Everquest. Once a competitor comes out with a game that's not broken (difficult, but it will happen) we'll all flee this crappy UI, this broken game play and shoot things where it's more fun for everyone and anyone.
I agree with the goon.
Everquest was a great game that got many things right but it was just a bit too rough around the edges and lacking in polish. WoW, which was smartly developed in part with hardcore games from well-known EQ guilds such as Fires of Heaven and Afterlife, created a product that tapped the potential of the fantasy MMO market in a way no other game had (or has since). I think it can be said that Eve is at risk of a similar phenomenon if it does not address its core issues (unintuitive controls, poor in-game information and dysfunctional / tedious mechanics).
Sadly, the Blizzard of space MMO's has yet to emerge. All online space games turn into shooters lacking depth. Eve is something good, and the ideas are right, so we stay. Unfortunately, the majority of Eve's issues are not simple balance issues or things that are cheap to fix. I personally will be rooting for CCP and I hope they appreciate that things are not at the level they should be for a game this mature.
Maybe we really just need Eve 2 at some point with a build from scratch set of controls that are only influenced loosely by the original. Rethink everything.
*Ed1* -- Or just let me mod my fracking UI...
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The Riddik
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Posted - 2009.04.09 11:57:00 -
[186]
eq great?
well, it was ok for its time but thats it, and it established grinding, and eventually activism by bleeding heart carebears.
also, EVE has been out for 6 years and has endured constant growth, the only game that has, .
so you go agree with the little goon, you deserver to be a pet of someone like that lol.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.09 20:46:00 -
[187]
The only point I personally somewhat agree with the goon on is not even the goon's point but somebody else's a bit earlier...
...that being that it's not just how the UI looks (particularly the corp management stuff), but also the total lack of PRACTICAL USE roles that could LIMIT the damage a "corp thief" does.
You know, stuff like being able to assign some value to items in the corp hangars, and manually limiting the value of items members can take away from the hangars to certain amounts per day/week/month ? Or what about decent logging of who took what from what hangar (and I don't mean just by using containers) ? How about something like "take item X request" that reserves that item for the taker but doesn't actually take it before somebody with some kind of new role of, say "requisition manager" approves the taking of that item ? Limiting the value of reservable items too, general and on a per-hangar basis, and so on and so forth ? How about some kind of "repeatable contracts for corp only", or better still a "corp only place to sell stuff" ?
And that's just skimming the surface of usability.
_
The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
JadeO
Caldari
W.A.S.P
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Posted - 2009.04.09 21:56:00 -
[188]
Akira T for CSM :P
Seriously, I agree with what you said. EVE offers a lot of things but some of those things lack A LOT in features/options to be used on its full potential.
Personally, I'd love to see a much more complex system of priviledges for corp hangars, pos's, corp management itself etc.
I also agree with the fact that some parts of the interface are terrible. Science and Industry is one of them, but, personally, I find the whole Journal (and all its tabs) to be extremely poor. The EVE-mail window is just terrible, same thing for the Notepad and its ridiculous "label" system (which kinda puts People & Places on the spot too)..
There's a lot of things in EVE that are just waiting to be improved yet, no one from CCP shows interest (or will) to work on it. At least, not that I've seen...
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KalEl Trask
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Posted - 2009.04.10 03:42:00 -
[189]
Edited by: KalEl Trask on 10/04/2009 03:43:30
It's not the interface that's a bother for me.
I agree, Eve has some of the crappiest documentantion I've ever seen for a game.
The fact that devs are not developing new accurate guides, instructions, or however you want to put as new patches come out is ludicrous.
Don't give me it will take away from their development time.
IT SHOULD BE PART OF THE DEVELOPMENT PLAN!
I've been playing for over two years now and I am still finding little things here and there that I felt should have been fully documented by ccp.
That doesn't make it interesting, just annoying at this point.
The best guides have come from some of the players by far, I give them all of the praise for their patience and dedictation.
(CCP should pay these guys... ahheemmm Halada!!)
You shouldn't have to search 6 different forums to find one 3 sentence paragraph to explain how somethings works.
Lastly and most importantly.
This would also eliminate the constant posts with the same questions.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.10 14:26:00 -
[190]
Edited by: Akita T on 10/04/2009 14:29:07
Originally by: KalEl Trask
Lastly and most importantly. This would also eliminate the constant posts with the same questions.
Well, let's be fair, there will always be people who need to be told to RTFM
But at least we would have a manual to tell them to RTF from
P.S. The EVE wiki is probably a case of "too little, too late". And a very weird name. And the fact most people don't even know what should go on some of those pages, yet the guys from CCP (that supposedly should know how it goes) don't really update the relevant ones.
_
The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Shinzann
Order of Anarchy
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Posted - 2009.04.10 15:45:00 -
[191]
Edited by: Shinzann on 10/04/2009 15:47:20
Originally by: Isilwen Nightfall
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Malcanis
Yeah, and they've been getting them.
EvE doesn't come with good instructions, true. Neither does RL and that gets over 6 billion subs.
And WOW sucks as a game compared to EVE in almost every aspect except hand-holding, but it has far over 10 mil subs, which are voluntary, not "no choice" as RL-the-MMG is
WoW does not get its subrscriptions for its tooltips. It gets its subscriptions due to the fact that there's no need for them.
QFT
Edit: That being said, the documentation/EVElopedia could use some updates/tweaking/content
===
Q u o t e:
If the servers aren't up, its not a hotfix. |
Bklyn 1
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Posted - 2009.04.10 15:48:00 -
[192]
Originally by: KalEl Trask
The best guides have come from some of the players by far, I give them all of the praise for their patience and dedictation.
I love this about Eve personally.
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Ms Delerium
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Posted - 2009.04.11 15:02:00 -
[193]
I will add:
- Can we get a "repackage all" and "sell all" options?????
Or at least make it like the reprocessing screen, you tick every single thing u want.
It would save hours of selling ****ty loot after some missions and having 200+ garbage on the hangar.
Anyways I usually reprocess all the crap, but wait, there might be a valuable module (millions) that reprocessed could turn into 3tritanium and 1megacyte.... ehhhhr...
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.11 15:13:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Ms Delerium
I will add:
- Can we get a "repackage all" and "sell all" options?????
Or at least make it like the reprocessing screen, you tick every single thing u want.
It would save hours of selling ****ty loot after some missions and having 200+ garbage on the hangar.
Anyways I usually reprocess all the crap, but wait, there might be a valuable module (millions) that reprocessed could turn into 3tritanium and 1megacyte.... ehhhhr...
CTRL-A -> right click -> repackage
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.11 15:15:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Bklyn 1
Originally by: KalEl Trask
The best guides have come from some of the players by far, I give them all of the praise for their patience and dedictation.
I love this about Eve personally.
Yeah I see it as a positive, not a negative.
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards
Hoodlums Associates
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Posted - 2009.04.11 15:18:00 -
[196]
I liked not having CCP hold my hand as I started this game, having to learn for myself the hard way is also rather fun. I also love the UI, perhaps you should take a look at the SWG UI for an example of a bad one.
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Fabienne Jax
Minmatar
Deja Skye
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Posted - 2009.04.11 20:25:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Arkyk
The great thing about the EvE devs is that they're always working on with something new and interesting; The bad thing about the EvE devs is that they are always working on something new and interesting.
Agreed. I think the word 'consistency' is worth mentioning here. CCP seems to be just that in its efforts in rolling out new features, but quality seems to come at a much slower pace. Yes, I also agree w/ counter arguments regd the need to work around minor quirks, or adapting to in-game circumstances in creative ways. But that's no substitute to poor implementation of EVE's noteworthy features and a hideously inconsistent stream of information. That is a separate beast entirely.
That's my interpretation of Akita's original post, anyhow.
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Tamoko
Damage Unlimited Inc
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Posted - 2009.04.13 01:28:00 -
[198]
Edited by: Tamoko on 13/04/2009 01:28:19
It's all so unfortunate, really. The EVE community is conditioned to expect things a certain way and they get absolutely horrified at any idea of change. During the first CSM term, I pursued an aggressive attempt at raising awareness of UI flaws, largely citing Xaen's hard work.
What I realized was that, for a largely intelligent and sophisticated group of people, everyone was terrified of the idea of giving the end-user even a hint of control over the UI. Macros, Macros, Waaaaah!
I may be exaggerating, but I felt like I was spending more time trying to convince seasoned players that making aesthetic and ergonomic changes to the UI wouldn't usher in untold hordes of macro miners and mission runners. If I had money to throw away, I'd finance Xaen's inclusion in the CCP payroll. I have almost no doubt that it'd end in a better experience for virtually every single member of this community.
edit to cleanse the wall of text.
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Drahkar
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Posted - 2009.04.13 05:56:00 -
[199]
Ok I've only read through the first page of replies and most of it was people pretending ...
1) The OP doesn't make good points
2) The OP ever said he/she didn't like Eve
3) Eve's many good aspects means it should not be improved further
... doing any one of these makes you a dimwit, and probably also a sheep for answering to a thread in the exact same way everyone else does just because it's the cool thing to do according to people who spend 12 hours a day reading forums and posting meaningless sh*t about a game they supposedly hate.
I could say "epic fail" to the people concerned but that's exactly the kind of sheep-like attitude I'm laughing at, and I really don't understand why people think it makes them look anything but moronic.
For typical unoriginal content-lacking responses reffering to imaginary emotions on my behalf, see most answers to my post.
On the OP's subject, I agree that Eve has some ridiculous bugs/issues. Does anyone at CCP play Eve? Does anyone at CCP know how to program? Whoever at CCP answers yes to both these questions should be told to go through the game looking for every tiny imperfection he sees then fix the ones he can and make a list of the rest so they can also be fixed by whoever can do so. Simple solution that would remove a lot of the frustration that can be caused by this otherwise awesome game. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.14 16:00:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Drahkar
Does anyone at CCP play Eve ?
I picked only this small section of your post to make a remark that I wanted to make a long time ago but always forgot... the funny thing is, I believe PERCENTUALLY speaking (population percentage that plays, and percentage of free time spent playing EVE), CCP employees' EVE usage most likely dropped heavily in the past couple of years.
I mean, seriously, would you play if your character would be forcefully renamed and moved to a random NPC corp, with employment history wiped as soon as anybody even accuses you of being a CCP employee ? Would you play if your characters are subjected to restrictions other normal characters aren't ? And I have a feeling that nowadays, they're not even allowed to play from the office anymore, but can't be sure about that.
And it's our general fault (the players) for making it all be like that.
_
The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2009.04.14 16:28:00 -
[201]
The worst thing about eve is Akita T.
Originally by: Lance Fighter
This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route. |
Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
|
Posted - 2009.04.14 16:33:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Malcanis
I kind of disagree. EvE is much more interesting when you don't know how stuff works. It's the discovery that's fun.
If you're the kind of person for whom learning isn't fun then so sorry, wrong game etc.
QFT
Originally by: Lance Fighter
This is either a troll or a noob... Ill take the noob route. |
Killiashandra Ree
|
Posted - 2009.04.14 18:57:00 -
[203]
I think its in CCPs interest to pursue difficulty though obsufication, as a games designer and veteran MMO player, its a pretty neat trick to design one of the easiest and most simplistic combat mechanics in any MMO, and then make it look more complicated than your rivals combat mechanics.
See how many posters here think Eve is hard, when your character has no instant skills, no reactive skill, almost complete absence of "counter" mechanics once you have fitted your ship, extremely slow paced fight mechanics, and far far fewer available actions than are available to other chars in other games. All of this hidden by an unergonomic barely documented interface.
Of course once you get used to it, its no problem to kill people semi-afk while you're simultaneously scoring a word first boss kill in another game.
I guess thats one of the attractive things about eve, its very easy to be effective in game while doing other stuff, like watching TV or reading. Most other MMOs force you into constant button clicking just to stay alive, let alone make a living.
And along with another point expressed in this thread, the lack of knowledge of some GMs is astounding, Ive seen the most amazing inaccurate crap spouted by them in the rookie/help channels. Don't even get me started on trusting advice given by other players, asking another player for help in this game... you might as well just dump your ISK in a can and SD your ship..the net result is pretty much the same.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.04.14 19:08:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Killiashandra Ree
I think its in CCPs interest to pursue difficulty though obsufication, as a games designer and veteran MMO player, its a pretty neat trick to design one of the easiest and most simplistic combat mechanics in any MMO, and then make it look more complicated than your rivals combat mechanics.
See how many posters here think Eve is hard, when your character has no instant skills, no reactive skill, almost complete absence of "counter" mechanics once you have fitted your ship, extremely slow paced fight mechanics, and far far fewer available actions than are available to other chars in other games. All of this hidden by an unergonomic barely documented interface.
Of course once you get used to it, its no problem to kill people semi-afk while you're simultaneously scoring a word first boss kill in another game.
I guess thats one of the attractive things about eve, its very easy to be effective in game while doing other stuff, like watching TV or reading. Most other MMOs force you into constant button clicking just to stay alive, let alone make a living.
And along with another point expressed in this thread, the lack of knowledge of some GMs is astounding, Ive seen the most amazing inaccurate crap spouted by them in the rookie/help channels. Don't even get me started on trusting advice given by other players, asking another player for help in this game... you might as well just dump your ISK in a can and SD your ship..the net result is pretty much the same.
8/10 not bad.
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Onus Mian
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.04.14 19:43:00 -
[205]
Edited by: Onus Mian on 14/04/2009 19:43:31
Originally by: Killiashandra Ree
I think its in CCPs interest to pursue difficulty though obsufication, as a games designer and veteran MMO player, its a pretty neat trick to design one of the easiest and most simplistic combat mechanics in any MMO, and then make it look more complicated than your rivals combat mechanics.
See how many posters here think Eve is hard, when your character has no instant skills, no reactive skill, almost complete absence of "counter" mechanics once you have fitted your ship, extremely slow paced fight mechanics, and far far fewer available actions than are available to other chars in other games. All of this hidden by an unergonomic barely documented interface.
Of course once you get used to it, its no problem to kill people semi-afk while you're simultaneously scoring a word first boss kill in another game.
I guess thats one of the attractive things about eve, its very easy to be effective in game while doing other stuff, like watching TV or reading. Most other MMOs force you into constant button clicking just to stay alive, let alone make a living.
And along with another point expressed in this thread, the lack of knowledge of some GMs is astounding, Ive seen the most amazing inaccurate crap spouted by them in the rookie/help channels. Don't even get me started on trusting advice given by other players, asking another player for help in this game... you might as well just dump your ISK in a can and SD your ship..the net result is pretty much the same.
While what you say is all very true I would like to point out that the combat system of WoW is pretty much encompases the entire gameplay which WoW has to offer. In Eve the combat system is merely a part of a much gameplay system.
Indeed the two combat systems are not hugely disimilar in their foundation except that if you were to apply WoW mechanics to Eve your modules would not automatically activate again after each cycle (Indeed this wouldn't be allowed) and using certain modules would stop you using other/all modules for a short period of time. Of course there is room for optimized button pushing in WoW but usually this information is freely avaiable on game forums in the form of flowcharts and set rotations which even the most idiotic player can follow and produce acceptable results.
Once I'd explored the various roles in WoW and completed the available content at the begining of LK I soon found this style of gameplay dull and unimaginative.
----
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
- Douglas Adams
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Killiashandra Ree
|
Posted - 2009.04.14 21:07:00 -
[206]
The main reason I maintain 2 eve accounts is due to the richness of the crafskilling system (only trumped by some Neverwinter player created systems) and now I'm getting on in age, the fighting style is much more suitable to my reaction speed these days (beaten by too many shadowpriests unsheeping themselves with power word death). My only complaint about the combat is how much is decided in the hangar, your fitting vs your opponents, though this does encourage more team play, since its rare for one ship to be able to fulfill all the roles for the effective prosecution of a fight.
No my biggest gripe is still the documentation and UI, yes it keeps the proles out, but sometimes you need new proles to scam/shoot, and quite often even vet players discover obscure things years after starting playing that have potentially cost them millions of isk (ie GSC in your hauler), and quite often these things can only by discovered by paying up and experimenting, and hoping the result is positive.
Then think about the 1000's of days that have been lost on research lines, because about 1% of the player knows that going over 50 ME is utterly pointless, that's not "good" lack of knowledge that's fun to discover, it effectively reduces the potential of the whole game universe.
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Ariane VoxDei
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Posted - 2009.04.14 23:15:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Akita T
I mean, seriously, would you play if your character would be forcefully renamed and moved to a random NPC corp, with employment history wiped as soon as anybody even accuses you of being a CCP employee ? Would you play if your characters are subjected to restrictions other normal characters aren't ? And I have a feeling that nowadays, they're not even allowed to play from the office anymore, but can't be sure about that.
And it's our general fault (the players) for making it all be like that.
So that's why i am in a npc corp and have such corp history (jk).
The jesting aside, I do not consider it "our fault".
If it has turned out to be like you claim, it has become like that because of GM's and other employees abusing their powers and/or inside knowledge - either by being weakwilled and giving in to their own desires or allowing themselves to be pushed into corrupting their trusted position.
That lack of integrity naturally causes management to clamp down, to restore consumer confidence, since membership would drop like a rock if they just let it slide by.
T20 anyone? And that was not the only case, as I recall it.
But, for all you know, they could be playing, but keeping very quiet about what they really do and pretending to know a lot less than they do. They just might suffer from the same condition a lot of the forum farts do: mole evolution - so adapted to their environment that they have almost lost the ability to see. If it's not just stubborn pride or fear of change (read:improvement) that prevents them.
In any case, I thank you for starting this thread. Eve needs to improve a lot on the UI front - or run a very real risk of soon becoming a decrepit relic like Anarchy Online that any current day gamer will reject on day 1 or 2 of trying it.
And I mean UI on a lot of fronts.
Controls and lack thereof.
Massive lack of hotkeys, or at least of fuctions that you can chose to assign a hotkey to. Way too much "mouse+contextmenu" dependency.
Visual appearance (a very broad subject)
Presentation of data, which includes a major cleanup of bad/misleading/confusing/wrong attribute and bonus descriptions.
Lack of UI feedback, e.g. did the game register that doubleclick? Or is it just lag? Or did it not register it. You won't know until you see your ship begin turning.
etc. etc. etc.
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
|
Posted - 2009.04.15 00:05:00 -
[208]
All the things about eve that you say suck, most people just learn to live with.
Much as it would be great if the POS interface, for example, was streamlined, we would all be happier people. But the very fact that it's fiddly has meant that people who can put up well thought out and defended POSes are a valuable commodity. I think I'm not the only person who has groaned with annoyance when the POS guy goes on holiday.
Same goes with the fiddly corp interface. Same with a dozen different micro-professions. Up until recently, exploration was exactly the same. It was a pig and it took forever and it was bloody dangerous too. But most corps had a few people who were ****ing amazing with probes who busted plexes for everyone else.
Making something easy or well documented makes it a less valuable thing to learn how to do.
I try and recruit just about everyone I know who plays games of any description into playing eve. When they say 'so how do I do this' I teach them. The same way I learned. Hours of getting it wrong.
That's what makes it enjoyable to learn.
If you have to work at something, even if its because of (to your mind) crappy design, it still feels good to get it to work.
Same with real life really. A lot of things don't come with a manual, or come with so much documentation that you have NO idea where to look for what you want. Like getting your first computer, when you have no idea what a computer is supposed to even really do, you just know that a lot of people who's opinions you value have them. When it goes wrong, you either:
Take it to someone who does know (micro-profession)
Keep trying until you make some sense out of it all (trial and error)
Get someone who knows more but doesn't charge to teach you (learning)
Thats reality. And that eve.
Some things are badly designed, at least when us mortals look at them. But we still get by and enjoy them for what they are.
So don't complain that eve could be better. We all know that. Everyone knows that nothing is really perfect. There is always room for improvement.
But no matter how awful you think certain features are, you are not required to use them. If you think they suck that bad, don't play the game. If you love the game, but just want to whine because thats the fashion on the forums, then just stop. Complaining about something you love is just counter productive.
Most of us on here have been playing the game for a long time. Some of us, a VERY long time. IIRC people from beta have been playing since before WoW was even a thing. Anyone think that the game has not improved since beta ? Hell even since I started playing in 2005, things have improved so much that its hard to believe its the same game.
So don't complain. Eve will never be perfect. What it will be is a rich, varied wonderful world that continues to at times make no damn sense. Thats what makes it so addictive. Because NOTHING is easy. Nothing will come without investing the time to learn how to do it.
It makes it special, it makes it hard, it makes it challenging.
Think that covers it all
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.16 00:52:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
All the things about eve that you say suck, most people just learn to live with.
It goes from "slightly annoying but new" to "slightly annoying but I can manage", then it becomes "I barely even notice" for a good while, but eventually reaches the point of "how the hell have I put up with this crap for so long?"
_
The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
J Valkor
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2009.04.16 02:26:00 -
[210]
EVE is an Excel game.
Some people dig that and this is the only MMO for them. Some people don't like Excel that much. Weird, huh?
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
|
Posted - 2009.04.16 03:15:00 -
[211]
Edited by: Katarlia Simov on 16/04/2009 03:15:51
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
All the things about eve that you say suck, most people just learn to live with.
It goes from "slightly annoying but new" to "slightly annoying but I can manage", then it becomes "I barely even notice" for a good while, but eventually reaches the point of "how the hell have I put up with this crap for so long?"
But its not crap. It's just not perfectly streamlined and requires some painful learning experiences.
Lets get analogous...
Driving: Its a clunky, unintuitive, borderline infuriating process to learn how to do it. But once you pass the test, you barely even think about it. And even some of the worst drivers in the world manage to never have an accident.
Now, maybe you think that the controls to your personally designed hover-tank are pretty cool. And im sure they are. Since it's all GPS guided and automatic transmission and so on and so forth. In fact, you barely have any control over it at all. All you do is press go and it goes.
Now, thats fine for you.
However, clunky unintuitive design is why a lot of people enjoy the process of driving. It's certainly why a lot of people drive manuals. They like the feel that even if its through some ******ed contrivance that should have been taken off the road ten years ago, they are in control. They know what every knob does. When it rains, THEY put the wipers on. When its dark THEY put the lights on.
In the modern era, totally un-needed. But totally comfortable.
Do you see what I'm getting at yet ?
Something is not a flaw if it works. If things don't work as intended, its a bug. Bug report it. If they just make you do things in a weird way, then just learn how it works. You ever had a car with weird clutch ? Same thing.
When you drive someone else's car, you go 'man I should fix that' but somehow you don't because it's your car, and even if its not exactly the same as everyone elses, its yours and its not a problem for you.
You and me, and indeed everyone else, puts up with these things because there's nothing else. Its either use the tools we have, or ignore that aspect of the game.
You can complain as much as you like, but I think you're making a big deal over nothing of any great importance. Use it, or don't. There is no aspect of putting up with anything. You dont have an alternative. So just shut the hell up and play the game. Or don't as the case may be.
Just saying 'I don't like this' doesn't contribute to game development. If you really want to see change, then start compiling your own UI improvement programe, talk to someone in the CSM and put it on the agenda.
Complaining about something that most people dont have any strong feelings about mostly means your doomed to failure.
Edit for Spelling et al.
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Arkyk
Viper Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.04.16 05:15:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
Use it, or don't.
The third option, of course, is bringing up the issues to the people who are in a position to fix them. Hence, the thread . . .
I still stand by my earlier suggestion that someone who is fed up with the UI (and much more talented than me at photoshop) should create some sample screens of how they'd like it to be. That would definitely be the most constructive thing a player could do.
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Clair Bear
Perkone
|
Posted - 2009.04.16 06:02:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Arkyk
. . .
I still stand by my earlier suggestion that someone who is fed up with the UI (and much more talented than me at photoshop) should create some sample screens of how they'd like it to be. That would definitely be the most constructive thing a player could do.
It's not the eye candy -- it's the needless clicks, cascading menus placing never used, dangerous choices right next to ones clicked millions of times a day. It's about lack of functionality sometimes worked around by completely unintuitive use of seemingly unrelated functions. It's misleading and lacking information which can only be rectified by doing immersion-breaking google searches out of game.
I could care less if the UI looks like it's an overlay drawn with crayon by a 3 year old and scanned at 100 dpi. If it looked like ass but reduced my daily repetitive clickfest from several thousand clicks to a few dozen I'd have a spontaneous orgasm or sixty. And reactivate several alt accounts.
The best illustration of bad UI design is the forum navbar. The new version is prettier, but far slower and less functional even after several iterations.
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
|
Posted - 2009.04.16 13:46:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Clair Bear
Originally by: Arkyk
. . .
I still stand by my earlier suggestion that someone who is fed up with the UI (and much more talented than me at photoshop) should create some sample screens of how they'd like it to be. That would definitely be the most constructive thing a player could do.
It's not the eye candy -- it's the needless clicks, cascading menus placing never used, dangerous choices right next to ones clicked millions of times a day. It's about lack of functionality sometimes worked around by completely unintuitive use of seemingly unrelated functions. It's misleading and lacking information which can only be rectified by doing immersion-breaking google searches out of game.
I could care less if the UI looks like it's an overlay drawn with crayon by a 3 year old and scanned at 100 dpi. If it looked like ass but reduced my daily repetitive clickfest from several thousand clicks to a few dozen I'd have a spontaneous orgasm or sixty. And reactivate several alt accounts.
The best illustration of bad UI design is the forum navbar. The new version is prettier, but far slower and less functional even after several iterations.
I severely doubt that any degree of UI streamlining would drop your click quota from thousands to dozens.
The russian doll of menus isn't ideal, but for the most part its does its job. If the most valid complaint you have about the UI is that you have to click more than in other games, then you are definitely splitting hairs.
Every game has some aspect of repetitive SOMETHING, just sadly because we're grown ups in eve we're expected to do that ourselves rather than one button macros that we can spam all day while we watch our balance go up.
This kind of thread is all about whining, not about getting things done. If you wanted something done then it'd be in the GDF under 'UI Improvemnt Ideas Thread' with a lot of work done by the OP to work out the issues he see's with it.
Simply *****ing in the forums will not get anything done. Especially when you are just saying 'I WANT A NEW ONE' like some five year old who's bored of his current toy.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.04.16 14:19:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
This kind of thread is all about whining, not about getting things done. If you wanted something done then it'd be in the GDF under 'UI Improvemnt Ideas Thread' with a lot of work done by the OP to work out the issues he see's with it.
You mean something like THIS ?
Look at the date.
_
The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Grim
Amarr
Tears of Redemption
Avarice.
|
Posted - 2009.04.16 14:20:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Akita T
Yeah, the "welcome pages" are somewhat nice... FOR A VETERAN... but they're nowhere near enough - and most people just SKIP reading them because they're ANNOYING. You don't shove all that information in the face of a person the moment he's trying to do something trivial, you should have that information available in bits and pieces as tooltips on the things that matter, and all of it available as "show me more info" simewhere in the corner - kind of a showinfo button, but for the screen you're in.
And using non-standardized ways to represent something... seriously, when you see "0.1%" (damage rate on mining crystals) you start wondering... is that really 0.1%, or is it actually 10% ? Or maybe it's 1% ? (note: it's actually 10%). Or what about "capacitor recharge rate bonus -20%" (hint : it's -20% capacitor recharge TIME, which translates into +25% capacitor recharge rate).
Welcome to the learning curve of eve. Get used to it or GTFO!
--
Death By Titan :( |
Arkyk
Viper Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2009.04.16 14:29:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Clair Bear
It's not the eye candy
Never said it was. =)
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Vaneshi SnowCrash
|
Posted - 2009.04.16 14:57:00 -
[218]
MMO's are full of grind and spiders. If you like this MMO's version of that excellent.
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AkRoYeR
Amarr
|
Posted - 2009.04.16 14:59:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Grim
Originally by: Akita T
Yeah, the "welcome pages" are somewhat nice... FOR A VETERAN... but they're nowhere near enough - and most people just SKIP reading them because they're ANNOYING. You don't shove all that information in the face of a person the moment he's trying to do something trivial, you should have that information available in bits and pieces as tooltips on the things that matter, and all of it available as "show me more info" simewhere in the corner - kind of a showinfo button, but for the screen you're in.
And using non-standardized ways to represent something... seriously, when you see "0.1%" (damage rate on mining crystals) you start wondering... is that really 0.1%, or is it actually 10% ? Or maybe it's 1% ? (note: it's actually 10%). Or what about "capacitor recharge rate bonus -20%" (hint : it's -20% capacitor recharge TIME, which translates into +25% capacitor recharge rate).
Welcome to the learning curve of eve. Get used to it or GTFO!
This!
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.16 15:05:00 -
[220]
That's not a learning path, that's bloody ninjas with caltrops on the side of the road.
_
The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Thetys
Caldari
Breed of Malakka
|
Posted - 2009.04.16 15:30:00 -
[221]
oh another eve-is-bs-thread, rare enough!
if you dun like, dun play, it's that easy. when you leave make sure you contract your stuff to my person.
eve is hard to learn and hard to play. if you want brainless entertainment please leave us and play something different.
------ |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.16 15:41:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Thetys
oh another eve-is-bs-thread
Might I perhaps suggest reading lessons for you then, dear madam ?
_
The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
ohoh7
|
Posted - 2009.04.16 15:55:00 -
[223]
First off, why do people take this much time out of their life to complain about all the bad things of Eve. Just play the game or do what mom used to say....If you don't have anything good to say don't say it at all.
I just joined the game as a trial member and just upgraded today and i have to say yes it is a hard learning curve but imagine how many little kids that frustrates and makes them leave. But i enjoy having to discover everything slowly, i felt so overwhelmed by everything on first log in but that's what i like i want to learn everything.
Nothings perfect but i think you may find that your things that you like might outweigh the things you don't, it's the things you don't are the easier ones to pick apart. And you're still playing right? They must be doing something right
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Arkyk
Viper Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2009.04.16 16:02:00 -
[224]
Originally by: ohoh7
Just play the game or do what mom used to say....If you don't have anything good to say don't say it at all.
If that was the case, nothing would ever change.
Quote:
And you're still playing right? They must be doing something right
Well, yes. That has been stated time and time again.
Just because we like the game doesn't mean we have to turn a blind eye to its shortcomings. The "love everything about it or leave" sentiment is a false dichotomy, and completely unrealistic. Under that logic, no one would ever file a bug report . . .
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.16 20:10:00 -
[225]
Originally by: ohoh7
And you're still playing right? They must be doing something right
Oh, look, what a surprise, said so the first thing in the OP !
I think you should take reading lessons too.
_
The problem with EVE || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.20 14:53:00 -
[226]
Edited by: Akita T on 20/04/2009 14:56:28
Oh and have I mentioned a tendency of "breaking stuff by fixing things that aren't broken" too ?
And let's not even say anything about the "I told you so" moment with regards to the "EVE box" (seriously, NOT including the largest patch to date on the boxed DVD, forcing people who probably want to buy the box to AVOID large downloads... ouch. You could have either delayed the box launch a couple of weeks OR you could have at least included a PARTIAL patch with most of the graphic assets or whatnot, and only force people to make a much smaller incremental patch from the boxed set version.... but no...)
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.27 07:23:00 -
[227]
And another honourable mention goes to the "we can't be arsed to calculate SP/hour averages for people passing the 1.6m SP barrier nor make checks if the skill is prematurely interrupted, so whenever you START a skill that would finish past 1.6, you train it all at regular speed instead of partially at double speed, partially at normal speed".
LAZY ! Not to mention unfair.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2009.04.27 07:50:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 20/04/2009 15:01:23
Oh and have I mentioned a tendency of "breaking stuff by fixing things that aren't broken" too ?
And let's not even dwell too much on the "I told you so" moments with regards to the "EVE box".
On second thought, let's.
Seriously, NOT including the largest patch to date on the boxed DVD, forcing people who probably want to buy the box to AVOID large downloads to make a huge download... ouch. You could have either delayed the box launch a couple of weeks OR you could have at least included a PARTIAL patch with most of the graphic assets or whatnot, and only force people to make a much smaller incremental patch from the boxed set version.... but no...
Guess how much the box sells in some stores ? Cheaper than a 60-day GTC, and there's a 60-day GTC included inside the box !
Tells you something about its "success", doesn't it ?
It's been very successful at getting me some cheap gametime!
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Komen
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2009.04.27 08:21:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Noix Arikani
I do agree with Akita on this one and she is probably the most intelligent person on these forumns IMO but its a doble edged sword, if you make the UI too easy then yes WoWification sets in and there are only minor quirks that need to be worked out in the UI, not complete re-hauls that you seem to be advocating
You are confusing having a clear and informative and useful UI with dumbed down gameplay. I do not want Eve dumbed down; I do want a better UI.
I like the new fitting screen, with it's effective HP calc, resists that change when I activate hardeners, and so on. However, it's got problems, like the cargo bay is represented by a little can, so you have to know that the little can means cargo. Why in hell they could not simply say 'cargo bay - click to open' and then list the cubic available/total is beyond me. OR, have the little can icon AND say 'cargo bay'.
The UI isn't even so much bad as it's just obscure. If it were better LABELED it'd be an improvement.
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Angeligue Tuttle
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Posted - 2009.04.27 09:02:00 -
[230]
I didn't enjoy slugging through the opening post so I did go through all the replies either. Maybe someone has already pointed this out, but if EVE sucks why continue to play Akita?
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SpaceSavage
tr0pa de elite
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2009.04.27 09:13:00 -
[231]
Imo... EVE is *too* noob friendly, and no longer the hard core black and white pvp game.
_______________
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Onus Mian
Amarr
Kingfisher Industries
|
Posted - 2009.04.27 09:40:00 -
[232]
I'm still learning new stuff about Eve whereas in other MMO's I've played you can usually get the hand of everything in next to no time.
----
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
- Douglas Adams
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2009.04.27 09:47:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Onus Mian
I'm still learning new stuff about Eve whereas in other MMO's I've played you can usually get the hand of everything in next to no time.
Likewise. Which is one of the main reasons I'm still playing.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.27 10:34:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Angeligue Tuttle
I didn't enjoy slugging through the opening post so I did go through all the replies either. Maybe someone has already pointed this out, but if EVE sucks why continue to play Akita?
You didn't even try reading the first couple of phrases either, it seems.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
The Aduro Protocol
Total Comfort
|
Posted - 2009.04.27 10:53:00 -
[235]
I, like Crumplecorn appreciate the EVE UI.
For some reason many people have a problem with it, but listen to this:
EVE was the first MMO I ever played. EVER. I learned in about a week what the basics were and took off from there.
However, I am noting that a great many people seem to have an issue with the EVE UI. Whether or not it be cumbersome is one thing, but functional it is. There are minor quirks here and there and when they rear their ugly heads in a way that breaks something, we complain about it and it gets fixed (e.g., right clicking scanner).
That said, I believe that the EVE UI is just fine. I have lived with it and have appreciated its niceties now for years and I don't wish for it to make any sweeping or drastic changes.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.27 10:59:00 -
[236]
For self-use, it's passable if you're a certain type of person that can get used to just about anything eventually.
For SOME self-use tasks, it's a pain in the ass (like, say, mass blueprint lockdown issues, but that's just one example).
For teaching newbies how to properly use it in a short time, it's exasperating.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
The Aduro Protocol
Total Comfort
|
Posted - 2009.04.27 11:10:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Akita T
For self-use, it's passable if you're a certain type of person that can get used to just about anything eventually.
For SOME self-use tasks, it's a pain in the ass (like, say, mass blueprint lockdown issues, but that's just one example).
For teaching newbies how to properly use it in a short time, it's exasperating.
Akita, I'm a CEO of a corporation who also does lockdowns and I have probably moved some 5 or 6 times since I started Aduro.
I don't have these mysterious blueprint lock/unlock issues, so don't try to catch me there.
Additionally, they give us cool tools for setting mass roles through a corporation. Click on the role, specify which look / take roles they get ad nausem, then click them all in the corporation member tab for each member you want to have those roles.
The corp interface is fine.
Additionally, it seems to me that after reading through some of the comments in this thread that people seem to have this idea that they are being thrown into a game with people who have never played EVE before. I mean, if someone is asking in say, the help channel "where is the cargo hold on my ship" I'm pretty sure that all 800 people are not going to know. Learning by doing is a great way to play EVE, and it is how I learned. It was hard, admittedly, but I did the tutorial and it was both exciting and fun.
I will admit, I quit for a solid day after my first day of tutorial, not understanding how to move around in space very well. I was discouraged. But I wanted to play this game and because of my determination I got back into the game and jumped into a help channel and asked hundreds of questions, made friends and had a really good time. I even formed my first corporation with friends out of the rookie help channel ingame.
You [Akita] are playing devil's advocate for no reason other than to generate noise. And you cover it with a "I love this game so I'm not going to quit, this is just a rant," which it is. There's nothing wrong with the UI, except for the recent moronic implementations they're making such as a solid blue bar instead of the traditional UI bar. I actually feel like the quality EVE UI is being taken away from us, and we are receiving a streamlined 'popular' version of EVE, rather than the EVE I started playing. Sure, I can adapt to change and deal with it. Yes, I will complain about it when it upsets me. But because I understand the UI and was given a brain to think with and fingers to ask questions with, I LEARNED HOW TO PLAY EVE. It's not a miracle.
I am against streamlining the interface to have it congested with text. Symbols and icons are very appropriate. After playing for a week, I learned what the Market was, what the Fitting window was, the difference between the Insurance and Repair shop (which I had problems with initially) and more.
Give it a rest.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.04.27 11:33:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
[...]I am against streamlining the interface to have it congested with text[...]
Since when does "streamlining" imply "swamp it with text", or am I misunderstanding something here.
Anyway, you say you have moved your operations several times, and you have never had the lockdown glitch. Well, lucky you, I guess. But even WITHOUT that particular glitch, manually selecting each and every blueprint if you have a lot of them can't be something you ENJOY doing, or are you actually implying you do ?
What harm would come from "streamlining" the process by having something as simple as, oh, I don't know, the ability to lockdown or unlock multiple (even all) blueprints in a single vote and then a single action ?
Also, how often have you been to the help channel lately ? It's like swimming upstream, with a parachute tied to each of your joints. More often that not, genuine newcomers just end up ignoring that channel in frustration due to the signal-to-noise ratio, and try it either in local or maybe attempt to have a chat with a friendly.
Sure, we like to THINK that we're oh, so great for figuring the interface out all by ourselves with some help at some critical steps, but truth be told, the IDEA that CCP wants to have the game appeal to a larger audience while at least ATTEMPTING to not dumb it down clashes heavily with the lack of ergonomy, lack of intuitivity and lack of comprehensive default keypresses and various minor settings.
There's no merit in stoically wading through some less-than-decent interface until you get used to it, the main difficulties in EVE should come from the game environment to some degree, but mostly from OTHER PLAYERS, while the interface of the game should be as unobtrusive, fully functional and easy to use as humanly possible.
I'll give you one example of something you probably don't mind, something I learned not to mind and compensate for "by heart", but something that bothers a lot of new people : the "orbit at" setting. Why the hell can't the ship orbit AT the distance you set rather than some (at first seemingly) arbitrary distance FARTHER away ? The ship speed already decreases below top speed automatically anyway when you set orbit and you go "too fast to turn", so why not decrease it enough so you actually orbit at the distance you have set rather than having to either manually cut top speed down more or set a tighter orbit which you end up guesstimating ?
Yeah, sure, if you're "hardcore" enough, you'll be manually piloting by double-clicking in space for each direction change, but what's the point of having some option that only "SORT OF" works ?
Also, why not have an "approach" button that, you know, actually APPROACHES something as opposed to what the button does most of the time, namely "ram that target !" ?
Or, what about the nice windows that are supposedly finally fixed in some patch, then restart jumping all around the freaking screen ?
How about the "target zone" for dragging away the LOCKED TARGETS "box" (an invisible box, mind you) away from its default location ? It's like whoever designed it tried to make it as obscure as possible and hide it in the default version somewhere where you can't see it.
And that's just some minor nitpicks I am sure I haven't even mentioned yet in this thread.
But there are literally HUNDREDS of such nitpicks scatered all across the user interface.
...and I use the words "User Interface" lightly, it's actually a mix of user interface, cumbersome game design choices, rushed coding and god knows what else.
So, no, I can't "give it a rest". I'll give it a rest when the stock UI is a lot, LOT better... or when CCP releases the UI for player-side modding.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.05.01 10:32:00 -
[239]
Cat got your tongue Siig ?
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Kale Kold
Caldari
Mortis Angelus
The Church.
|
Posted - 2009.05.01 10:46:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Akita T
HORRIBLE USER INTERFACE
You tout an UI design team, but... umm... nothing that REALLY NEEDED an improvement got one, and some of the new stuff that got improved is worse than the stuff it replaces.
The only couple of "meh" results (as in, not complete UI design failures) are the fleet and drone UI (which only underwent minor changes)... and the jury is still out on the new fiting screen (it's got better stuff, and it's got worse stuff).
Totally and utterly agree on all these points!!!!! 
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Hawk Firestorm
|
Posted - 2009.05.01 11:29:00 -
[241]
Edited by: Hawk Firestorm on 01/05/2009 11:37:51
Eve has always had several major problems right from the very beginnings of Eve.
Firstly and foremost the Devs lack of any willingness to actually improve and revamp the FUNDEMENTAL game design and focus entirely on the core areas of the game, but instead just to throw more content at consumers.
Eve's a Deep game and that is one of it's problems and it's strengths, they've introduced so much that's not implemented well it's left a game that's half finished in many respects while the core of the game hasn't seen one improvement since launch.
Many of Eve's design elements were and still are very simple and worked fine for a small population that was around in the beginning.
Good examples are isk selling, Blob warfare both situations created by the devs teams lack of willingness to update the fundementals of the game like the economy's short falls that create Vast quantity's of isk required for higher content which opened the door to isk sellers, something that didn't exist in the early years.
The other being Blob wars, not exapnding the colonisable universe to take advantage of human traits such as not willing to travel long distance, and encourage Super corps and alliances to break up and spread out over a very wide area helping to keep gang sizes down, and most groups desire to empire build as a team.
As the population has gone up the Gameplay has dropped like a brick in many core instances especially combat, most won't remember how combat used to be old players like myself do and the difference is like night and day to what it is now.
A radical change of mindset needs to occur, that being you can vastly improve the gameplay by improving the current design of the game and gameplay rather than just throwing content and hardware at the problem.
I said this have have kept saying this for years and I'll say it again.
I'm sorry Devs, but looking back over the years you've not improved the design game to fit the current population in any shape or form since beta, you've improved the content but not the game's core elements which worked fine with low population but fail utterly in the current reality of a population 10X what it used to be.
And it really shows more and more the longer time goes on.
While eve is pretty unique CCP your going to have to up your game to survive, new MMO's are on the horizon that will greatly appeal to your user base.
Improve the game not the content, on a fundemental level that being how users interact with the game from the market to creation of a community and general interaction with the game through the UI and control system, which could be improved to the core of the game the player in his ship and combat in general, these are the heart of the game not the content.
None of which have recieved any improvement what so ever.
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Dr Karsun
Gallente
Empire News
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Posted - 2009.05.01 11:59:00 -
[242]
I know that I shouldn't really speak up much, since I've played the game only for a year (lack a bit to 1 y now) but... I see many mistakes in game mechanics, I still get confused pretty often when I try to enter a new area of the game. Still can't really go for 0.0 pvp, because I haven't got the isk I'd have to put in for a start. But I'm really doing good in empire and lowsec. There are some things that really amused me at some point.
One is that... Faction Warfare was an amazing IDEA... Too bad that it was just a good idea, because it was thrown in to the public and never improved. FW was to be a nice introduction to real low sec and later 0.0 pvp but in some ways, it becamse really hardcore pvp. That's why I left. It's better to be in normal wardces, since it's not a problem to enter high sec and pwn anyone in mission running ships (my post long back, also a petition AND bug report - bug report is still not filtered and it's been like that for the last 2 months)... So, FW is just an easy way to gain faction standings ultra fast and then to LEAVE, unless you have a ****load of money and don't need to fly around high sec. FW needs improvements or it'll die. It is dieing slowly, or at least it is dieing as it was to be, it's becoming something far different, but surely not easy pvp for noobs.
Another thing is since and industry... Took me quite a while to understand how the entire system works... And thing like that, that you CAN'T buy items with a calculated quote open is just hillarious... You have to close the window, buy some ore, if you didn't write the numbers and you'r not running a material calculator apart from eve, you have to open it as many times to calculate the quote as many time you forget the numbers... WHY? What's the problem? WHY can't you keep the window open, buy all minerals, click 'approve' or whatever the button is, it re-check if you've got the materials and it starts manufacturing... It's probably one of the most irritating things I've encoutered so far.
CCP - you should really have a team of devs that would sort out basic, small irritating stuff... EVEN the mentioned already corp interface, when I became CEO I was completely lost... Not even ONE DECENT TUTORIAL on how it works! In the forums I've found people willing to help me, ok, so I managed, but you guys should write one damn good tutorial and it'd be ok.
Also viewing standings... Such a basic thing as diplomacy would be SO much easier if you could see what standings have other corps got towards you. Ok, it doesn't have to be on the top, but if I could at least dig it up threw the corp managment menu? I can see worthless faction and npc corp standings... And not even a word about what non-npc corps have towards me? Damn, throw out the agent-standings towards a corp if you want to, but give me a normal tool with player owned corps standings.
And so many GREAT ideas on the forums, every day I see something that would make the world a better place... Usually not even one short anwser from the devs about it. Do they read the forums at all?
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The Riddik
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Posted - 2009.05.01 12:01:00 -
[243]
Edited by: The Riddik on 01/05/2009 12:02:34
Eve has always had several major problems right from the very beginnings of Eve.
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whiners, yes. like half you loosers here in this post, too hard? post here, lol
hawk you shovel it like a pro, but you are like Warcraft , NO SUBSTANCE.
you dont bring anything up expect isk selling, which is a problem for every other mmorp out there, and blobs, which is called community.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.01 12:18:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Hawk Firestorm
Good examples are isk selling, Blob warfare both situations created by the devs teams lack of willingness to update the fundementals of the game like the economy's short falls that create Vast quantity's of isk required for higher content which opened the door to isk sellers, something that didn't exist in the early years.
ISK selling is not an EVE-specific problem, it's a generic MMO problem.
If anything, CCP has been using one of the most effective of all possible ways of _preventing_ one of the root causes of RMT (the need of some players to get in-game cash without actually "working" ingame) by allowing us to trade GTCs/PLEXes for ISK, which also has the secondary benefit of allowing some people that otherwise couldn't possibly play the game to actually play it.
Quote:
The other being Blob wars, not exapnding the colonisable universe to take advantage of human traits such as not willing to travel long distance, and encourage Super corps and alliances to break up and spread out over a very wide area helping to keep gang sizes down, and most groups desire to empire build as a team.
Halfway right, sadly.
It was the players that all but forced CCP's hand into giving us warp to zero, cyno-bridges and jump freighters, so the reason EVE feels "small" is just as much the fault of the playerbase as it is that of CCP. They made efforts (granted, misguided efforts from my viewpoint, at least for the time being) of enlarging the galaxy (so far, a bunch of new regions plus the wildspace, which basically doubled the number of solar systems one can go to compared to, say, 2+ years ago).
The problem with the blobs is that... well... HOW EXACTLY do you want to break up blobs, when blobbing IS one of the most effective things in a lot of games, and in EVE it's one of the main selling points ("several newbies can take on a day-one veteran") ?
Sure, you can try to make objectives smaller and more varied and require a spread of people around to accomplish the goals almost simultaneously... but then you just end up with multiple smaller blobs anyway. Or, you can make some area-effect weapons that force a blob to disperse (and how well that turned out to work, eh). So far, CCP tried (and failed, repeatedly) to do so, not even realizing it's mostly a futile attempt.
Quote:
A radical change of mindset needs to occur, that being you can vastly improve the gameplay by improving the current design of the game and gameplay rather than just throwing content and hardware at the problem.
To be honest, I have no idea how you could even HOPE to improve it.
I never saw any idea that didn't have a huge "catch" attached to it that could even remotely work without "breaking" something else badly (or even work at all as intended in the first place).
Do you have some better ideas ? Feel free to run them by us.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.01 12:25:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Dr Karsun
[...]One is that... Faction Warfare was an amazing IDEA... Too bad that it was just a good idea, because it was thrown in to the public and never improved.[...]
Ah, factional warfare... the expansion that could have been awesome, yet ended up as one of the most miserable failures.
The reason ?
CCP likes to pre-nerf things. Then almost never buff them afterwards.
We warned them people would soon lose interest in FW because, well, there was no reward (or, better said, no GOOD reward) for participating in it, neither ISK-wise nor e-peen wise. We warned them almost nobody would bother running missions that take you 20 jumps away into enemy territory unless the POSSIBLE rewards for doing so would make your mouth drool.
Their replies (or at least hinted-at replies) ?
"Well, if you like PvP, you should like PvP for the sake of PvP".
Jerks.
Don't they know the only GOOD reason to PvP for the vast majority of the EVE population is economic superiority ? That's what 0.0 wars are fought for, that's what empire wardecs are made for, that's what pirates hope to get out of it, and so on and so forth... or, at least, for "e-peen". The percentage of people that "PvP just for the heck of it" and don't care about reputation nor ISK gains is minimal.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Hawk Firestorm
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Posted - 2009.05.02 05:33:00 -
[246]
Yes they have increased the universe, but not by the ammount that the population has increased, the population has gone up 10 fold the universe hasn't.
As with Alpha/Beta Super corps/Alliances trashed the gameplay then same as they are now.
The other point I'm trying to put over is yes there is always going to be the they show with X number of players so the otehr side turns up with more.
One of the failings I see in Eve is Design, and the lack of understanding of it everything in eve as far as the players is concerned and the path that they take in game is set down by design, players go in this direction because the design sets them on that road.
Many of the core elements of eve are pretty simple and were designed when the population was low and they functioned well, for the most part though some are leftovers from beta that wreen't really ever fleshed out.
In game cash selling is indeed not a new thing to MMO's, but as I've already stated it tends to show it's ugly head for the same reasons, early days the economy was far different, everything was affordable, hard to bome by yes, but was on a sensible keel the Isk selling simply wouldn't get a look in there was no margin for profit in doing so, unfortunately it's gone berserk with no action to correct it especially with higher content.
But for me the sadest casualty has been the overall gameplay especially in fleet combat, where it used to rich fun and tactical it's now a blob point click boom affair, for many of the same reasons old weak design elements that fail hopelessly with high populations, one being the introduction of focal points in the design from the travel method and putting fixed gates into the design to more fixed structures, that cause gangs to warp between x n y and fixate around single objectives rather than hunting and tactics in smaller groups over a wider area.
Yes alot has been player driven on those weaker design elements that's pushed them beyond breaking point with increasing numbers, but thats because those elements design was weak and allowed it.
But as I've said yes the game has grown content wise but it hasn't grown at all at it's core to update it to the new reality of high population, and the main failing has always been on a design front.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.05.02 08:34:00 -
[247]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
However, I am noting that a great many people seem to have an issue with the EVE UI. Whether or not it be cumbersome is one thing, but functional it is. There are minor quirks here and there and when they rear their ugly heads in a way that breaks something, we complain about it and it gets fixed (e.g., right clicking scanner).
That said, I believe that the EVE UI is just fine. I have lived with it and have appreciated its niceties now for years and I don't wish for it to make any sweeping or drastic changes.
Times change. There are still text-based DOS/UNIX-style games out there, but that doesn't mean people won't say 'hey, thought about doing a graphical user interface for that?'.
That you, an older player, are comfortable with the UI as it stands is, with the greatest of respect, almost completely irrelevant. As the software world has repeatedly demonstrated, as new UI concepts mature and new ways of working with user interfaces emerge, products can either fall by the wayside or they can adapt. (How ironic that the adapt-or-die mentality is so apt when applied to the world of PC games).
If five years from now, the now-new concepts of table-based PC interaction, touch manipulation, and 3D displays, are viewed as the norm, should CCP just blindly say 'no no, that's not for us, mouse and keyboard are where it's at?'. That's an extreme example, but there are plenty of other less extreme ones where UI motifs that were common in 2003 are now viewed as inefficient, unintuitive, poor design.
What people seem to completely forget in their empassioned arguments is that it is perfectly possible to create new designs that embrace their predecessors, just more efficiently. One need not completely reinvent the UI to make it better. Only when a completely new way of working is shown to be entirely better without drawbacks should it be considered.
As for the argument 'I learn stuff from other players, hey isn't this great' - well whoopdeedo - so does the rest of the planet in every other endeavour. This doesn't stop progress or UI improvement, and has little to do with it. Documentation will never be perfect. UI will never be perfect. That's absolutely zero excuse to do nothing. You might as well write 'never try because you might fail'. Since when has that been the EVE approach?
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties...
Environmental Effects
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Meeogi
Amarr
Lone Star Privateers
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.02 10:25:00 -
[248]
Wow....I actually went through every post.
I found myself wondering, why a dev hasn't said a single word in this thread...then quickly realized that they probably have been. Fan boys indeed.
Akita is right...it needed to be said.
Personally, Letting players create U.I. mods would solve the problem ..."SO EASILY"...You get a world wide dev team that pays YOU!!!
I don't believe anyone here thinks EFT shouldn't be in game..."yeah, I see you sorta tried"...but players like seeing the DPS output...see EFT for reference on how to do it.
Players that think the U.I sucks.."like me" Would use them...you simply adopt what's better..and your devs could still work diligently on the new females perfect rack's. ITS A WIN WIN BABY!
P.S Whats more """SAND BOX""" then that?
Wax on Wax off |
Semkhet
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.05.02 15:47:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Meeogi
Wow....I actually went through every post.
I found myself wondering, why a dev hasn't said a single word in this thread...then quickly realized that they probably have been. Fan boys indeed.
Akita is right...it needed to be said.
Personally, Letting players create U.I. mods would solve the problem ..."SO EASILY"...You get a world wide dev team that pays YOU!!!
I don't believe anyone here thinks EFT shouldn't be in game..."yeah, I see you sorta tried"...but players like seeing the DPS output...see EFT for reference on how to do it.
Players that think the U.I sucks.."like me" Would use them...you simply adopt what's better..and your devs could still work diligently on the new females perfect rack's. ITS A WIN WIN BABY!
P.S Whats more """SAND BOX""" then that?
When he open his mouth, Akita is right 95% of the time. To a point I wondered how someone getting systematically that deep into various aspects of EvE could ever enjoy a normal social life, but whatever, to each one is own and to Caesar what belongs to Caesar.
Fact of the matter is that with their attitude, the folks who run this game would never have a chance to make a single cent in a business branch where customers expect their providers to achieve basic QA standards, beginning with the documentation of the products.
Then we get this distinct segment of the player base which is so hooked to EvE that they can't even smell poo when they're standing right on top of it. But yeah, one million flies can't be wrong isn't it ?
Is EvE a good game ? Each one of us could come with a different and legitime answer. Could EvE be better ? Certainly. There have been so many issues where the player base did give pertinent and educated input long before changes became implemented, that many CCP screw-ups only can be explained by incompetence, pure and simple.
Hence frankly, I don't give a rat's ass if EvE goes down the drain like the rest of Iceland's economy, if I get banned or whatever else. At the end, it's just a game among many, many others, and it's a pity that endemic amateurism ruins EvE's implementation while its basic concept is brilliant.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.03 16:11:00 -
[250]
Edited by: Akita T on 03/05/2009 16:11:32
Originally by: Semkhet
When he open his mouth, Akita is right 95% of the time. To a point I wondered how someone getting systematically that deep into various aspects of EvE could ever enjoy a normal social life, but whatever, to each one his own and to Caesar what belongs to Caesar.
Hehe. Thanks... I guess
But you do sort of have a point, other than work (which I do from home, and at a *real* hourly rate that would shame many due to working about a tenth of the billed hours tops) and my girlfriend (which lives in a city 150km away, so we usually only spend every other weekend together at best), I don't have all that many social life "time-eaters". Most of my friends are married, with children, and interaction with them is mostly online, while they're at work (since at home they seldom have any free time).
Oh, did I mention I'm 5 GB behind my "weekly TV shows to watch" and over 100 GB behind my "movies to watch" list ? That in spite of the fact almost every time I visit my GF or vice-versa, we either have sex or watch movies, rarely doing anything else ? Heh. TMI. Anyway...
So, yeah, it really takes a very weird social life to be able to pull that off
Originally by: Meeogi
I found myself wondering, why a dev hasn't said a single word in this thread...then quickly realized that they probably have been. Fan boys indeed.
Nah, I doubt (m)any dev(s) would be so dishonest with themselves as to do that.
More likely, those who read went "gah, that person's right, I've been telling the guys here the same things... but... we have no time for this, marketing is riding our asses to get this and that done in time for the next wave of ad campaigns".
Besides, I have a feeling those that would openly agree with me won't get a pay raise any time soon
Originally by: Semkhet
Is EvE a good game ? Each one of us could come with a different and legitime answer. Could EvE be better ? Certainly. There have been so many issues where the player base did give pertinent and educated input long before changes became implemented, that many CCP screw-ups only can be explained by incompetence, pure and simple.
Hence frankly, I don't give a rat's ass if EvE goes down the drain like the rest of Iceland's economy, if I get banned or whatever else. At the end, it's just a game among many, many others, and it's a pity that endemic amateurism ruins EvE's implementation while its basic concept is brilliant.
Sad thing is, for all its flaws, I still care enough about it to be upset if that ever happens
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Hawk Firestorm
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Posted - 2009.05.04 11:20:00 -
[251]
Edited by: Hawk Firestorm on 04/05/2009 11:22:11
Indeed FW is a good idea although it's not really been setup to give any meaning reward over ranks.
Although it is a good itermiate step for new players and old alike to get into fleet combat in a more forgiving enviroment.
As for the UI not being upto scrath in many respects this is true along with the control method there has always been a great deal of improvement to be had from looking at this that helps the gameplay especially being able to more readily dogfight espcially when compared to other games where this element has been far stronger.
But in essence it's the lack of fundemental design that improves the gameplay over mere content that's always been a bone of contention with me and the Dev team for over 5 years, which leaves many shouting this module needs this or this item needs that rather than stripping back and looking and the fundementals which cause the problem in the first place.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.16 01:39:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Hawk Firestorm
Indeed FW is a good idea although it's not really been setup to give any meaning reward over ranks.
Yeah, CCP seems to have this crazy idea people would enjoy PVPing just for the sake of PVP without any significant reward whatsoever for a longer period of time... or, should I say, it's worse, the crazy idea that FW is just a stepping-stone between empire and 0.0... meh.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Professor Perplex
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Posted - 2009.05.16 02:30:00 -
[253]
couldnt be bothered to read all of the thread and the op is a lil harsh but in principle he is right.
every one who disagrees is invited to set a large pos with 2 reaction chains and defence, fuel it for a month, get reaction supplies and strontium and to top it off, do it in a badger.
we ll talk again tomorrow when you are foaming from the mouth with rage
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Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.05.16 05:13:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
I severely doubt that any degree of UI streamlining would drop your click quota from thousands to dozens.
I have 90 production pipelines. If it wasn't for the clickfest I'd expand to even further. Have you seen how many absolutely needless clicks industry requries? It goes something like this:
right click on blueprint
select click "manufacture" on menu
click on "runs" entry box
type in the maximum number of runs
click on pick installation
double click on first row in grid
click on "ok"
click on "accept quote"
So that's 8 clicks and some typing to start a single manufacturing job. I won't even include the clicks to verify I'm using an original, not a copy or vice versa. Multiplied by 10 jobs per character, sometime multiple times a day. Multiplied by 3 characters per account, and 3 currently active accounts. A minimum of 700 clicks a day just for my manufacturing jobs. Starting a job which spans multiple days is not an option -- t2 module prints don't have enough runs to cover even 24 hours.
Invention is just as bad, but happens far more often.
A simple streamlining would be to pick the first available production or invention line by default and go directly to the quote window (which would allow changing of quantity). If no defaults need modification it would reduce the clickfest from a minimum of 7 clicks to just 2.
That's just an improvement for the current UI. I could see a real UI person designing a drag-and-drop interface where the user could select multiple items to work on, drag, drop to one or more work areas and after being presented with a summary screen accept the batch. At least an order of magnitude reduction in pointless clicking and popups, possibly two.
Quote:
This kind of thread is all about whining, not about getting things done. If you wanted something done then it'd be in the GDF under 'UI Improvemnt Ideas Thread' with a lot of work done by the OP to work out the issues he see's with it.
I don't have quite the hopes and dreams for the usefulness of GDF that you do.
And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question? |
Par'Gellen
Gallente
Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital
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Posted - 2009.05.16 06:07:00 -
[255]
2003 veteran here and I 100% agree with OP. The way information is presented is absurd beyond even the most rediculous chemically induced fever dream. For Pete's sake I used to think that the negative percent bonuses were PENALTIES!
CCP could do with hiring an average Joe to look over the UI and point out "WTF does this mean?" spots...
---
To err is human. But it shouldn't be the company motto...
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Da Death
Minmatar
Relentless Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.05.16 07:37:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Malcanis
I kind of disagree. EvE is much more interesting when you don't know how stuff works. It's the discovery that's fun.
that's the worst comment I read in a few years....
á
Curse Absolution Prorator Impel T2 Mods/Drones/Ammo Manufacturer
Since 2003. |
Nicyra
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.05.22 20:27:00 -
[257]
Only the very stubborn will succeed in this game. My first two characters both ended up in lowsec and dead. I kept playing.
------------------------------------------------
,"Dude, your chin..."
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1021382
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Xaen
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.05.27 17:32:00 -
[258]
Is this thing on?
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Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
BharkKoum Zeer
Gallente
Amarr Empire Research Copr
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Posted - 2009.05.27 17:47:00 -
[259]
Akita: A tremendously excellent initial post. Are you running for CSM? If you are you got my vote!
It is a shame that game developers do not listen to the needs and the requests of thier players. This seems to be a common thread among MMO that is to ignore the common sense needs and not listen when the problems are pretty obvious to the common players.
I am sick and tired of going system by system in game to find tiny droids not worth mining. I am also tired of having to pay 95000 for a unit of fermionic condensate and 55000 for ferrogel. So far no intelligent response from our economists.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.27 17:54:00 -
[260]
Originally by: BharkKoum Zeer
Akita: A tremendously excellent initial post. Are you running for CSM?
Not planning to run any time soon.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Ms Delerium
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Posted - 2009.05.27 18:12:00 -
[261]
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Mana Sanqua
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Posted - 2009.05.27 21:00:00 -
[262]
Edited by: Mana Sanqua on 27/05/2009 21:00:13
What more can be said, I agree 100% with the original post and Akita's points afterwards. Most of all I agree with the devs failure to:
1) Listen to the players reporting major flaws with the game.
2) Understand risk vs reward.
3) Revisit prenerfed content.
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