Secondly, if skin tones are freely available, why aren't hair colours as well? Restricted hair colours infers racial consistency...unrestricted skin tones does not. (locked clothing debate also)

Also if CCP is allowing more variety with skintones and hair color, why don't they just make all the clothing options available for all the races.

Just discovered my character's current skin tone is not available. Why not?

Seems a bit counterproductive to remove skin tones.

Also if CCP is allowing more variety with skintones and hair color, why don't they just make all the clothing options available for all the races.

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/Seriphyn/ccpdiversity.png < gooby wat da fak
Secondly, if skin tones are freely available, why aren't hair colours as well? Restricted hair colours infers racial consistency...unrestricted skin tones does not. (locked clothing debate also)

The hair color restrictions have been lifted

Entertain for a moment the idea that maybe our characters are immortal transhuman demigods, who can sleeve into a freshly-baked body composed of reconstituted bacon, vegetables and soylent green.

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/Seriphyn/ccpdiversity.png < gooby wat da fak

For the 'caucasoid' bloodlines, 14 skin tones are fine. That type covers from Europe to India IRL, relatively same facial structure, but diverse range of skin tones, from pale (Celtic) to super dark (Tamil).

The problem emerges with 'negroid' and 'mongoloid' bloodlines. Female Brutor look fine with the 14 skin tones. Because the male Brutor is so obviously "I'm a black person", it does NOT work. Same with the Asian races...that Khanid looks like chocolate...

Secondly, if skin tones are freely available, why aren't hair colours as well? Restricted hair colours infers racial consistency...unrestricted skin tones does not. (locked clothing debate also)

The new skintypes replace the old skin tones.
If you like your skin tone, and don't want to change it, you are free to keep it... just don't apply a skintype and save your character. You should be able to change everything else on your character.

Now people are made of SOYLENT GREEN?

Mind. Blown.

Sorry I disagree, it just looks wrong because of the lips, they aren't changing color with the rest of the skin.

Only thing I'm not going to be keen about is less subtle variation in the existing skin tones.


More variety is fine. But less subtlety isn't.

can't have the old ones and the new ones? I'm curious as to the limitation stopping you from having both available, or is it a design choice?

just so we are clear, when I talk about skintypes and skin tones, this is what I mean:
skintype = new skin colors
skin tone = old skin colors

We feel the current color skin tone range is too narrow and having to pick one of 6 skin tones that are pretty much the doesn't make that much sense. We want to allow characters of all bloodlines to use the new skintypes we creates, and that range is pretty broad and the colors pretty evenly spread.
So if we wanted to have the old color also available, the options would be 20 for each bloodline, which is too much, and the color palette would just look weird with maybe 10 very white options(for Amarr), and then the rest.
Also, we want to move to use the new skintypes (behind the scenes they are totally different from the skin tones), but realize some people might not be happy to change colors so we are allowing people to keep their old skin tone until they actually apply a new skintype and save the character.

CCP, can you please stop dodging the question and tell us what it will take to get all clothing and hairstyle choices unlocked for all characters as well? Pretty much everyone has been asking for this from day one of Incursion.

I remember a CCP dev saying "Why would a Caldari wear an Amarr robe? It doesn't make sense" the first time the above argument was brought about.

I guess my question would be: if we're going to go this far with customization (with hair too, now, and eventually racial blending), why not get rid of all of the previous bloodline archetypes completely? That would mean going to an All Points Bulletin type model, for example. That makes little sense to me, but I have to ask.

Sorry for getting short with you guys. That was unacceptable behaviour on my part and I apologise.

It's just that myself and many other Incarna enthusiasts have been after this basically since Incursion in early 2011 and we've always either been straight out not answered or told "I'll ask the art team", and never given a response.

Why not allow access to a different range of skin tones (a blend) when mixing? Sort of like at Fanfest, where a white Amarr and a dark Brutor mixed produced an olive skinned guy.

Anyways, shortly after I replied, the creative director came back and I asked him whether we would ever consider that. He said he wanted to give all bloodline access to all clothes at some point, but probably through the LP store or something like that (I don't know if he has discussed it with the art director, who may or may not agree). So there is no timeline on it, but there is at lest interest in doing it.

I didn't ask about the hairstyle, but from my point of view, we will need to lift some restrictions if we put in racial blending (whether it's give you access to the hairstyle of the other bloodline or something else),
I hope that answers some of your questions somewhat... I'm not sure there is any better answers at this point.

I do rather liked the way the skin tones were handled is this video with the blood line blending. The Amarr-Brutor blend looked superb both facial feature and skin tone wise.

I am a fan of this, but I am worried that the archetypes will break down before blending. I think blending is great, but basic character archetypes have been a part of EVE since 2003 and I don't see why it should (more or less) go away.

No problem at all, apology accepted
Anyways, shortly after I replied, the creative director came back and I asked him whether we would ever consider that. He said he wanted to give all bloodline access to all clothes at some point, but probably through the LP store or something like that (I don't know if he has discussed it with the art director, who may or may not agree). So there is no timeline on it, but there is at lest interest in doing it. I didn't ask about the hairstyle, but from my point of view, we will need to lift some restrictions if we put in racial blending (whether it's give you access to the hairstyle of the other bloodline or something else),
I hope that answers some of your questions somewhat... I'm not sure there is any better answers at this point.

Updating Sisi... but let me guess: no olive skins, no red skins, and Asian with chocolate skins.

Will be back briefly.

I said this on backstage and I'll say it here too, Seri.

Entertain for a moment the idea that maybe our characters are immortal transhuman demigods, who can sleeve into a freshly-baked body composed of reconstituted bacon, vegetables and soylent green. Consider for a moment that these may be the kinds of people who ask the clone company to add gruesome facial scars to every single clone to look cool and edgy despite the fact that these people don't put themselves in harm's way - and the same with tattoos: you don't just buy that one tribal, you have the tattoo artist tag a dozen of your clones!

Considering this, might it not be possible that we should be looking at this as melanin-modified clones rather than rage about ethnicities and genetics?

tl;dr: chill the hell out.

just so we are clear, when I talk about skintypes and skin tones, this is what I mean:
skintype = new skin colors
skin tone = old skin colors

We feel the current color skin tone range is too narrow and having to pick one of 6 skin tones that are pretty much the doesn't make that much sense. We want to allow characters of all bloodlines to use the new skintypes we creates, and that range is pretty broad and the colors pretty evenly spread.
So if we wanted to have the old color also available, the options would be 20 for each bloodline, which is too much, and the color palette would just look weird with maybe 10 very white options(for Amarr), and then the rest.
Also, we want to move to use the new skintypes (behind the scenes they are totally different from the skin tones), but realize some people might not be happy to change colors so we are allowing people to keep their old skin tone until they actually apply a new skintype and save the character.

So racial blending is definitely being considered? I know it was previewed at fanfest but being able to do it doesn't necessarily equal that you will. I'm all for it and I imagined it working as simply you'd get access to the other racial clothing, tattoos and hairstyles/colours.

Faction clothing for LP is a pretty neat idea. Are you guys also still doing the clothing themes, such as cyberpunk, buisness, scientist etc?

Also whatever happened to the eye implant on sisi last year? The one which looked like this. It was really cool, looked like an electronic eyepatch for us pirate types

I do rather liked the way the skin tones were handled is this video with the blood line blending. The Amarr-Brutor blend looked superb both facial feature and skin tone wise.

Is the replacement of the skin tones with these 14 skin types a preparation for bloodline blending?

Still I would strongly argue here that it should not be possible to make a White Guy with Black Features or a Black Guy with White Features ... this is not out of any silly racist perspective, but simply that it is not possible in real-life.

Lastly, a while back I found an awesome bug (it was regretably fixed) that lets you look like you have clear glasses. Is there any possibility we could get our hands on some of those?

As of today, awesome bug has been turned into awesome feature... I doubt that it will go out in Inferno, and I don't know how it will enter the game, but the asset is in

It is possible that we will restrict it a little bit (for example, Amarr might not have the darkest color, and Brutor not the lightest).
The world we live in is so diverse that I'm pretty sure you can find dark skinned people with "white" features, and light skinned people with "black" features.
I think the skintypes we have now work pretty well... my favorite test character, who is Civire, now has dark skin, and another favorite is a white Brutor. I think both look very good, and I'm pretty sure we see people similar to them all the time in real life

Yes, racial blending is still being considered, but there is no timeline on it or anything.
The clothes are pretty much on hold now, so we are not really working on the clothing themes. There are actually a few new items(space suits) on Sisi right now, but I'm about to filter them out because they are not going out in Inferno and are just work in progress.

The eye implant still exists, it's just filtered out... I am not sure what's going to happen with it though.

Come on, CCP Karkur... we've moved down from 72 racial skin tones* to 16, and you just killed yellow, red and olive skins in the process. Are you sure that newspeak is not the third language for CCP?

I see red people every day, but not in New Eden. I see yellow poeple every day, but not in New Eden. I see olive people in my mirror, but not in New Eden. In a rough estimate, your new skin tones just left out 75% of humanity.


*6 racial skin tones x 3 races x 4 empires = 72

[Come on, CCP Karkur... we've moved down from 72 racial skin tones* to 16, and you just killed yellow, red and olive skins in the process. Are you sure that newspeak is not the third language for CCP?

I see red people every day, but not in New Eden. I see yellow poeple every day, but not in New Eden. I see olive people in my mirror, but not in New Eden. In a rough estimate, your new skin tones just left out 75% of humanity.


*6 racial skin tones x 3 races x 4 empires = 72

It is possible that we will restrict it a little bit (for example, Amarr might not have the darkest color, and Brutor not the lightest).
The world we live in is so diverse that I'm pretty sure you can find dark skinned people with "white" features, and light skinned people with "black" features.
I think the skintypes we have now work pretty well... my favorite test character, who is Civire, now has dark skin, and another favorite is a white Brutor. I think both look very good, and I'm pretty sure we see people similar to them all the time in real life

Come on, CCP Karkur... we've moved down from 72 racial skin tones* to 16, and you just killed yellow, red and olive skins in the process. Are you sure that newspeak is not the third language for CCP?

I see red people every day, but not in New Eden. I see yellow poeple every day, but not in New Eden. I see olive people in my mirror, but not in New Eden. In a rough estimate, your new skin tones just left out 75% of humanity.

The new colors do cover a wide range of skin colors (not just white and black), and I really hope everyone can find a color they like.

When those colors were made, the artists made sure they covered the old default colors. The 9th color in the color wheel is olive.
The new colors do cover a wide range of skin colors (not just white and black), and I really hope everyone can find a color they like.

As of today, awesome bug has been turned into awesome feature... I doubt that it will go out in Inferno, and I don't know how it will enter the game, but the asset is in

Only thing I'm not going to be keen about is less subtle variation in the existing skin tones.


More variety is fine. But less subtlety isn't.

Yeah, on another note, CCP, please reconsider this skin tones business. At least delay its release for a while.

No problem at all, apology accepted
Anyways, shortly after I replied, the creative director came back and I asked him whether we would ever consider that. He said he wanted to give all bloodline access to all clothes at some point, but probably through the LP store or something like that (I don't know if he has discussed it with the art director, who may or may not agree). So there is no timeline on it, but there is at lest interest in doing it. I didn't ask about the hairstyle, but from my point of view, we will need to lift some restrictions if we put in racial blending (whether it's give you access to the hairstyle of the other bloodline or something else),
I hope that answers some of your questions somewhat... I'm not sure there is any better answers at this point.

He said he wanted to give all bloodline access to all clothes at some point, but probably through the LP store or something like that (I don't know if he has discussed it with the art director, who may or may not agree).

Oh my god. Clear eyeglasses.

CCP, I cannot express just much how much I love you right now.

Have my babies.

Wow, youre a nerd playing a character that looks like a total nerd..

The hair color restrictions have been lifted

Wow, youre a nerd playing a character that looks like a total nerd..

And?

Owned!

.....without eyelashes!

There is no collision detection between eyelashes and glasses, so the eyelashes are not rendered when wearing glasses else they would pierce through the "glass".

Anyway, IMHO, clear eyeglasses have no point in existing. I am sure that 23,000 year in the future correction glasses should have become obsolete in one way or another...

just so we are clear, when I talk about skintypes and skin tones, this is what I mean:
skintype = new skin colors
skin tone = old skin colors

We feel the current color skin tone range is too narrow and having to pick one of 6 skin tones that are pretty much the doesn't make that much sense. We want to allow characters of all bloodlines to use the new skintypes we created, and that range is pretty broad and the colors pretty evenly spread.
So if we wanted to have the old color also available, the options would be 20 for each bloodline, which is too much, and the color palette would just look weird with maybe 10 very white options(for Amarr), and then the rest.
Also, we want to move to use the new skintypes (behind the scenes they are totally different from the skin tones), but realize some people might not be happy to change colors so we are allowing people to keep their old skin tone until they actually apply a new skintype and save the character.

just so we are clear, when I talk about skintypes and skin tones, this is what I mean:
skintype = new skin colors
skin tone = old skin colors

We feel the current color skin tone range is too narrow and having to pick one of 6 skin tones that are pretty much the doesn't make that much sense. We want to allow characters of all bloodlines to use the new skintypes we created, and that range is pretty broad and the colors pretty evenly spread.
So if we wanted to have the old color also available, the options would be 20 for each bloodline, which is too much, and the color palette would just look weird with maybe 10 very white options(for Amarr), and then the rest.
Also, we want to move to use the new skintypes (behind the scenes they are totally different from the skin tones), but realize some people might not be happy to change colors so we are allowing people to keep their old skin tone until they actually apply a new skintype and save the character.

While I will agree that skin tones are diverse, it is the types that dictate how they will be.
Adding artificial limitations on how White / Black someone can be, would still produce edge-cases that don't look right and fall hard and deep into the Uncanny Valley.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skin_color
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albinos

Those are some good reads, if you guys haven't check them out already.
I have had a chance to study the Shader system employed for the Character system, which unfortunately doesn't really have the capability (due to how things are calculated) to achieve something that isn't pre-made. This said I would highly recommend that this changed as really the base skin-colour is generally down to the Sub-Surface Scatter, Reflection and Specular; the blend of these contribute to the final colour.

If you do simply stick with the current system though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Felix_von_Luschan_Skin_Color_Chart.JPG

That is probably the most important chart, those are base adjusted skin colours. What you want (generally speaking) is to make a Hue Palette with a larger range than that; but use it as the extremes... then Clamp to +/- 25% of the base value. This would prevent any weirdness.

I mean that is basically the least complicated solution that shouldn't take long to impliment as it would literally be a colour blend with a greyscale skin diffuse. Still I'd suggest looking in to creating the 6 Architypes (which really at 2, Cold and Warm climate variants for 3 base types) as this would provide a much larger range of diversity that wouldn't lead to edge-case weirdness.

Not to mention it would be easier to have the skin blend for colder, warmer evironments or being burnt. Should you want to expand on Incarna gameplay at a later date without having to make a work around for such things.