Originally by: Nubbin King

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People mine veldspar..... actual noobs who need them.

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Originally by: Chribba

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You didn't!!

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Originally by: Chribba

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You didn't!!

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Originally by: Nubbin King

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People mine veldspar all over empire because it's worth more than mining anything else, and lowsec minerals scale poorly with it, especially considering the risk vs reward.

Since I know CCP hates buffing things, I propose a serious veldspar nerfto make other minerals worth more ISK to mine, and maybe giving a little relief to some of those near permanently stripped belts in highsec for the actual noobs who need them.

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Originally by: Abrazzar

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Veldspar does not need to get nefed, it needs to get boosted. More Tritanium from veldspar means more Tritanium in general, more supply of Tritanium means lower price, lower price on Tritanium means other minerals rise in relation.

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Originally by: Delphen Gruss

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I think the main reason Veldspar/tritanium is a selling at a high price is because it is used EVERYWHERE in almost everything that can be built. Which means there will always be a high demand for it, which in turn drives up the price

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Originally by: Abrazzar

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Veldspar does not need to get nefed, it needs to get boosted. More Tritanium from veldspar means more Tritanium in general, more supply of Tritanium means lower price, lower price on Tritanium means other minerals rise in relation.

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Originally by: Chribba

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You didn't!!

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Originally by: Kuar Z'thain

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I humbly offer the service of ridding the Eve sector of the s****that is Nubbin King, to Chribba.

Payment in Veldspar, of course.

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Quote:

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I feel, I am, I am not. Am I?

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Originally by: Turiel Demon

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Simplest solution: Reduce trit output of veldspar, increase trit output of lowsec ores dramatically.

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Originally by: Turiel Demon

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Simplest solution: Reduce trit output of veldspar, increase trit output of lowsec ores dramatically.

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Originally by: Holy Lowlander

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The Nubbin King leader of the noobmercs has spoken .

stop using alts for trolling siriously ... ^^

I knows who u are !

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Originally by: Nubbin King

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People mine veldspar all over empire because it's worth more than mining anything else, and lowsec minerals scale poorly with it, especially considering the risk vs reward.

Since I know CCP hates buffing things, I propose a serious veldspar nerfto make other minerals worth more ISK to mine, and maybe giving a little relief to some of those near permanently stripped belts in highsec for the actual noobs who need them.

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Originally by: Abrazzar

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Veldspar does not need to get nefed, it needs to get boosted. More Tritanium from veldspar means more Tritanium in general, more supply of Tritanium means lower price, lower price on Tritanium means other minerals rise in relation.

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Quote:

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EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.

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Originally by: Zaraki KenpachiSan

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/signed
too much money in a too much safe way

Not considering that chribba and someone else is still mining in capital ships in high sec, THAT IS NOT FAIR, say what you want but that simply is not fair.

"they have ships before the change" you say, but it's stupid, it's like saying that i should still be able to use a 8 heavy drones thorax, or a cruise stealth bomber or anything elese, just becouse i had it since before they changed it!

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Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing

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Originally by: Zaraki KenpachiSan

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/signed
too much money in a too much safe way

Not considering that chribba and someone else is still mining in capital ships in high sec, THAT IS NOT FAIR, say what you want but that simply is not fair.

"they have ships before the change" you say, but it's stupid, it's like saying that i should still be able to use a 8 heavy drones thorax, or a cruise stealth bomber or anything elese, just becouse i had it since before they changed it!

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Translation: WAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAH

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Originally by: Chribba

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You didn't!!

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Nope.. what CCP needs is to introduce HIGH QUALITY veldspar in 0.0. Super ultra duper bumped valdspar with 2 times the yield of common veldspar.



That will rebalance the minerals.. lower tri price and raise the high end minerals prices..

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Originally by: Zaraki KenpachiSan

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Edited by: Zaraki KenpachiSan on 18/04/2009 12:28:41

Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing

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Originally by: Zaraki KenpachiSan

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/signed
too much money in a too much safe way

Not considering that chribba and someone else is still mining in capital ships in high sec, THAT IS NOT FAIR, say what you want but that simply is not fair.

"they have ships before the change" you say, but it's stupid, it's like saying that i should still be able to use a 8 heavy drones thorax, or a cruise stealth bomber or anything elese, just becouse i had it since before they changed it!

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Translation: WAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAHWAH

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Instead of only proving how idiot you are, try to explain why in your opinion i am wrong.
Translation: you know i'm right, but you can't do anything, except trying to troll.

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Quote:

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There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power governments, and tyrants, and armies can not stand.
G'Kar

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Originally by: Chribba

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You didn't!!

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Originally by: Nubbin King

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People mine veldspar all over empire because it's worth more than mining anything else, and lowsec minerals scale poorly with it, especially considering the risk vs reward.

Since I know CCP hates buffing things, I propose a serious veldspar nerfto make other minerals worth more ISK to mine, and maybe giving a little relief to some of those near permanently stripped belts in highsec for the actual noobs who need them.

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Originally by: Zaraki KenpachiSan

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...THAT IS NOT FAIR...

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Originally by: Dreximus

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Originally by: Alowishus

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These things make the game more exciting overall for people who enjoy risk and the ability to take responsibility for their own safety. At the risk of being cliche, th

Originally by: Zex Maxwell

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take it up with the CSM. CCP will not think about it, unless the CSM says so.

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Originally by: Ferdio RicotezIt's all in the law of the free market... So indeed, Veldspar shouldn't be nerfed but boosted instead.[/quote

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You can't fix the equation by tweaking veldspar supply because if you just make it easier to mine more veldspar or increase the tritanium yeild of veldspar, you're right that would drive the price of tritanium down, but not the profitability of mining it. The root problem here isn't that tritanium is too expensive, it is that mining veldspar is more profitable than mining any low sec ore. The only way to fix the equation is to tweak the demand side by editing blueprints to require more of the rare minerals.

If level 1 missions were more rewarding than harder missions nobody would argue that CCP needs to tweak things. It's the same with high sec mining being more rewarding than low sec. Reward needs to scale with risk. Even if low sec mining were twice as profitable it still would probably not have as good of a risk/reward ratio as high sec mining, but at least people interested in a more exciting way to mine would have an option... That doesn't neccesarily mean tritanium demand needs to be decreased, but demand for rarer ores needs to be increased.

Originally by: Abrazzar

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Turn all minerals you get from module reprocessing into Tritanium.

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Originally by: Neth'Rae

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Military experts are calling this a troll.

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Originally by: Abrazzar

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Turn all minerals you get from module reprocessing into Tritanium.

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Originally by: Nubbin King

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Originally by: Abrazzar

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Turn all minerals you get from module reprocessing into Tritanium.

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Or limit it to trit, mex, and pyr... I would be agreeable to that. Would mean you could get the same highsec ore from missioning as you could from highsec mining.

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Originally by: Abrazzar

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Turn all minerals you get from module reprocessing into Tritanium.

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Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon

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All that said, Abrazzar's right. You don't nerf veld in order to make it less profitable. You nerf reprocessing of junk loot in order to make high end minerals MORE profitable, which in-turn balances itself back out.

Without adjusting the supply, however, you can't expect the cost to change.

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Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr

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Veldspar output could have a nerf to balance risk and reward in empire, lowsecs and nullsecs. Sounds ok for me.

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Originally by: Neth'Rae

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Military experts are calling this a troll.

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Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr

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Veldspar output could have a nerf to balance risk and reward in empire, lowsecs and nullsecs. Sounds ok for me.

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Originally by: Furb Killer

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Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr

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Veldspar output could have a nerf to balance risk and reward in empire, lowsecs and nullsecs. Sounds ok for me.

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Read a bit more of the topic and you wouldnt have been required to think for yourself (which you didnt do anyway, but thats not the point).

Nerfing veldspar output will increase tritanium prices, which will keep veldspar as profitable. High end minerals will go down in price, since tritanium is new bottleneck. Due to that tritanium rates will increase even further, and veldspar will be at least as good.

If you boost veldspar, the opposite will happen, and high end minerals will become worth more again.

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Originally by: Tellenta

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are thinking we need less ways to get veldspar? All that would do is increase the price of veldspar even more. The market runs on veldspar, it is one of the first things I learned as I started production, everything else is tertiary.

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Originally by: TeamosilIf level 1 missions were more rewarding than harder missions nobody would argue that CCP needs to tweak things. It's the same with high sec mining being more rewarding than low sec. Reward needs to scale with risk. Even if low sec mining were twice as profitable it still would probably not have as good of a risk/reward ratio as high sec mining, but at least people interested in a more exciting way to mine would have an option... That doesn't neccesarily mean tritanium demand needs to be decreased, but demand for rarer ores needs to be increased.[/quote

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People don't mine because they are looking for an exciting activity. You loadout a mining vessel to mine, not to defend against pirate attacks. People take their expensive hulks and hang out in high sec because it is safe. Even if CCP somehow 10 folded the value of low and null sec asteriods most people still wouldn't try because they're playing by themselves. You need friends to do low and null sec mining, and that seriously cuts into the per person value of mining in that space.

Originally by: Rathelm

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People don't mine because they are looking for an exciting activity. You loadout a mining vessel to mine, not to defend against pirate attacks. People take their expensive hulks and hang out in high sec because it is safe. Even if CCP somehow 10 folded the value of low and null sec asteriods most people still wouldn't try because they're playing by themselves. You need friends to do low and null sec mining, and that seriously cuts into the per person value of mining in that space.

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Originally by: Teamosil

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Originally by: Rathelm

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People don't mine because they are looking for an exciting activity. You loadout a mining vessel to mine, not to defend against pirate attacks. People take their expensive hulks and hang out in high sec because it is safe. Even if CCP somehow 10 folded the value of low and null sec asteriods most people still wouldn't try because they're playing by themselves. You need friends to do low and null sec mining, and that seriously cuts into the per person value of mining in that space.

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Yeah that's true, but that is partly because high sec mining is currently the only logical way to go, so people that stick with mining are people that like the chill high sec lifestyle. I tried to make a go of low sec mining for a while. It's actually pretty fun and challenging. You need to have a friend or a second account hanging around to help you defend, fit your ship appropriately, always stay aligned to a warp out point, watch your scanner like crazy, move around constantly, etc, and even with all that, you're still fighting much more frequently than in any other profession I've tried so far. It is fun, but without more reward, it just isn't sustainable. If the reward were increased, mining gangs that bring enough folks to defend a belt start to become viable, quick ninja mining solo operations could be worthwhile, etc. You'd still lose barges, but at least you could afford to replace them. You might even see low sec start being a little more lively instead of just 5 pirates for every 1 non-pirate.

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Originally by: Izkhanilov

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Somehow I think this is just a ploy to lure people into lowsec so people like you can have fun popping them for no reason.

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Originally by: Shatner19

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so im not seeing your argument on why having a highsec capital is any sort of advantage on the trit market.

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Originally by: Izkhanilov

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Somehow I think this is just a ploy to lure people into lowsec so people like you can have fun popping them for no reason.

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Originally by: Mirana Niranne

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Originally by: Izkhanilov

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Somehow I think this is just a ploy to lure people into lowsec so people like you can have fun popping them for no reason.

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If lowsec minerals were actually worth mining you could probably afford to bring along protection.

I like the proposal on page 2. No need to nerf veld, nerf highsec mission drops to only reprocess into trit, pyrite and mex. And thus make low/nulsec the only place you can reliably get your mitts on the higher end minerals. Would drive up the prices of those mmins, and make them more profitable to mine.

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Originally by: m3rb3aSt

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Nerfing things is bad to begin with. Why not buff the other ores?

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Originally by: Nubbin King

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People mine veldspar all over empire because it's worth more than mining anything else, and lowsec minerals scale poorly with it, especially considering the risk vs reward.

Since I know CCP hates buffing things, I propose a serious veldspar nerfto make other minerals worth more ISK to mine, and maybe giving a little relief to some of those near permanently stripped belts in highsec for the actual noobs who need them.

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Originally by: Benzaiten Reverse

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Its exactly abut risk/gain which is very bad for lowsec mining.

I realy love when lowsec pirates cry they dont have enough riskless targets.

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Originally by: Bestofworst

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I think the whole thing is that there is no incentive to mine in lowsec for money. It's either high-sec or null sec. But why would someone want to mine in low-sec at all? Veldspar or no.

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Originally by: Mirana Niranne

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Originally by: Bestofworst

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I think the whole thing is that there is no incentive to mine in lowsec for money. It's either high-sec or null sec. But why would someone want to mine in low-sec at all? Veldspar or no.

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That's exactly the problem, and why mining in lowsec needs to be more profitable than mining in highsec.

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Originally by: Bestofworst

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Originally by: Mirana Niranne

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Originally by: Bestofworst

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I think the whole thing is that there is no incentive to mine in lowsec for money. It's either high-sec or null sec. But why would someone want to mine in low-sec at all? Veldspar or no.

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That's exactly the problem, and why mining in lowsec needs to be more profitable than mining in highsec.

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But at the same time, who wants to mine in Low sec when there's almost always some pirate there to shoot you, it's almost worth saving your hulk or whatever you mine in to stay in high-sec.

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Originally by: Mirana Niranne

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Originally by: Bestofworst

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Originally by: Mirana Niranne

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Originally by: Bestofworst

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I think the whole thing is that there is no incentive to mine in lowsec for money. It's either high-sec or null sec. But why would someone want to mine in low-sec at all? Veldspar or no.

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That's exactly the problem, and why mining in lowsec needs to be more profitable than mining in highsec.

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But at the same time, who wants to mine in Low sec when there's almost always some pirate there to shoot you, it's almost worth saving your hulk or whatever you mine in to stay in high-sec.

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Which is why it needs to get to the point that it's worth bringing your hulk in there along with 3 or 4 of your closest friends in hacs.

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Originally by: Mirana Niranne

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Originally by: Benzaiten Reverse

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Its exactly abut risk/gain which is very bad for lowsec mining.

I realy love when lowsec pirates cry they dont have enough riskless targets.

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Way to miss the point. The point, to point it out to you, is to make the gains of working in lowsec match the risk. The OP suggested nerfing highsec gains to make lowsec more profitable. It's not about risk free targets, you shouldn't be solo mining with your hulk in lowsec even if the gains were 10x higher than what you could do in highsec.

The profitability of lowsec should be enough to be able to justify a small group operation, and be able to pay out for protection while still making more money than you could doing the same activity in highsec. Right now, that's not the case, because lowsec ores aren't worth as much as veldspar, so why would anyone mine there even if it was safe?

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Originally by: Mirana Niranne

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Originally by: Izkhanilov

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Somehow I think this is just a ploy to lure people into lowsec so people like you can have fun popping them for no reason.

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If lowsec minerals were actually worth mining you could probably afford to bring along protection.

I like the proposal on page 2. No need to nerf veld, nerf highsec mission drops to only reprocess into trit, pyrite and mex. And thus make low/nulsec the only place you can reliably get your mitts on the higher end minerals. Would drive up the prices of those mmins, and make them more profitable to mine.

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Originally by: CCP Whisper

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Deal with it.

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Originally by: Teamosil

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You guys are replying without reading the thread... Some of the goals we are discussing are how to make tritanium cheaper and how to make low sec mining profitable...

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Originally by: Gamer4liff

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Great, as if ships weren't expensive enough already. Veld needs no nerf whatsoever, what it needs is to have a far greater supply, in stuff like systemwide asteroid belts. Mining in empire these days is a joke.

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Originally by: Benzaiten Reverse

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Edited by: Benzaiten Reverse on 19/04/2009 12:36:53

Originally by: Mirana Niranne

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Originally by: Benzaiten Reverse

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Its exactly abut risk/gain which is very bad for lowsec mining.

I realy love when lowsec pirates cry they dont have enough riskless targets.

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Way to miss the point. The point, to point it out to you, is to make the gains of working in lowsec match the risk. The OP suggested nerfing highsec gains to make lowsec more profitable. It's not about risk free targets, you shouldn't be solo mining with your hulk in lowsec even if the gains were 10x higher than what you could do in highsec.

The profitability of lowsec should be enough to be able to justify a small group operation, and be able to pay out for protection while still making more money than you could doing the same activity in highsec. Right now, that's not the case, because lowsec ores aren't worth as much as veldspar, so why would anyone mine there even if it was safe?

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And you missing my point, its simply not worth at all risk mining in lowsec.

1) Most players mine in highsec because they are save there so they can go afk whenever they need to. (for example you are watching over baby or are working as oncall or whatever else reason)
2) Belts in lowsec are usually visited regardless if check for unlucky miner or shoot down rats.
3) Even if you bring few friends so can pirates and shooting down hulk will take just few seconds (and that also mean your profit go down divided by number of players protecting you)
4) And as someone already said 0.0 is much safer and much more profitable then lowsec unless you are trying mine in delve right now.
And that dont even take in count that many miners use +5 set of implants whitch they NEVER take to lowsec as loosing both hulk and implants set you curently back almost 1 bil.
Its like asking faction fitted mission runner to go to do missions in lowsec. None would do that.

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Originally by: Mirana Niranne

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You're still not getting it, you're basing everything you're saying on how thing are NOW. The point, as I pointed out with the other person as well, is that lowsec needs to be balanced to reflect the additional risk involved. In some ways, lowsec is more dangerous than 0.0, in some ways not.

Either way, mining a higher end mineral in lowsec needs to be more profitable than mining veldspar in highsec, and as we have been saying and people are not reading

You don't need to nerf tritatnium output in highsec, you need to nerf isogen, nox, zydrine, mega, and morphite from empire loot. LEAVE the tritanium, mexalon and pyreite!

"ZOMG that would cause the prices of those minerals to go up!"
Yes it would. Hoprefully to the point that a miner could afford to hire PVPers to help keep them safe while still making more money than mining veldspar in empire would.

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Originally by: Mirana Niranne

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Originally by: Benzaiten Reverse

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Edited by: Benzaiten Reverse on 19/04/2009 12:36:53

Originally by: Mirana Niranne

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Originally by: Benzaiten Reverse

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Its exactly abut risk/gain which is very bad for lowsec mining.

I realy love when lowsec pirates cry they dont have enough riskless targets.

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Way to miss the point. The point, to point it out to you, is to make the gains of working in lowsec match the risk. The OP suggested nerfing highsec gains to make lowsec more profitable. It's not about risk free targets, you shouldn't be solo mining with your hulk in lowsec even if the gains were 10x higher than what you could do in highsec.

The profitability of lowsec should be enough to be able to justify a small group operation, and be able to pay out for protection while still making more money than you could doing the same activity in highsec. Right now, that's not the case, because lowsec ores aren't worth as much as veldspar, so why would anyone mine there even if it was safe?

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And you missing my point, its simply not worth at all risk mining in lowsec.

1) Most players mine in highsec because they are save there so they can go afk whenever they need to. (for example you are watching over baby or are working as oncall or whatever else reason)
2) Belts in lowsec are usually visited regardless if check for unlucky miner or shoot down rats.
3) Even if you bring few friends so can pirates and shooting down hulk will take just few seconds (and that also mean your profit go down divided by number of players protecting you)
4) And as someone already said 0.0 is much safer and much more profitable then lowsec unless you are trying mine in delve right now.
And that dont even take in count that many miners use +5 set of implants whitch they NEVER take to lowsec as loosing both hulk and implants set you curently back almost 1 bil.
Its like asking faction fitted mission runner to go to do missions in lowsec. None would do that.

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You're still not getting it, you're basing everything you're saying on how thing are NOW. The point, as I pointed out with the other person as well, is that lowsec needs to be balanced to reflect the additional risk involved. In some ways, lowsec is more dangerous than 0.0, in some ways not.

Either way, mining a higher end mineral in lowsec needs to be more profitable than mining veldspar in highsec, and as we have been saying and people are not reading

You don't need to nerf tritatnium output in highsec, you need to nerf isogen, nox, zydrine, mega, and morphite from empire loot. LEAVE the tritanium, mexalon and pyreite!

"ZOMG that would cause the prices of those minerals to go up!"
Yes it would. Hoprefully to the point that a miner could afford to hire PVPers to help keep them safe while still making more money than mining veldspar in empire would.

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Originally by: Benzaiten Reverse

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I will say it this way, you will not see me mining or doing missions in lowsec, EVER. It wont take more then one voley from decent gang to pop hulk and its entirely defenseless. (Unless you are making profit for eventual loss in few hours and thats not gonna happen)
Only decently safe mining in lowsec is when some big corp doing huge mining operations, but they usually have fleet of caps and subcaps to protect it and its not solution for most of EVE players.
And about how dangerous is 0.0 vs lowsec, i went to both few times when get boored and could roam in 0.0 for hours without being atacked but i cant say same about lowsec where average time for being "visited" was about 20 minutes (and thats including probing).

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Originally by: Chribba

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You didn't!!

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Originally by: Bibbleibble

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The best way to make lowsec worth mining is by, as someone suggested, making it so you can only get trit/pyr/mex from reprocessed loot. This would reduce the massive oversupply of mid range minerals that is currently occuring, and make the mid range ores much more profitable.

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Originally by: Benzaiten Reverse

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Originally by: Bibbleibble

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The best way to make lowsec worth mining is by, as someone suggested, making it so you can only get trit/pyr/mex from reprocessed loot. This would reduce the massive oversupply of mid range minerals that is currently occuring, and make the mid range ores much more profitable.

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Nerfing reprocesing is not solution, you get back from it just part of materials used for building it.

Everyone want to fix problem, but best way to fix problem is by fixing source of problem, not just its effect.

Primary problem why noone want to go to lowsec with not PVP ship is that its too easy to kill and pirates are ganking players too often as its really profitable for them and they like making others and only drawback is decent security loss which they dont care about. Either use alt or kill some rats to get it back.

Secondary problem is that demand for tritanium is currently much higher then its available creating bottleneck (and its not going to get better anytime soon because of huge amount of ships destroyed in 0.0). And this also making midrange materials cheaper as there is slight oversupply of it due tritanium limitation.

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Originally by: Benzaiten Reverse

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Originally by: Bibbleibble

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Primary problem why noone want to go to lowsec with not PVP ship is that its too easy to kill and pirates are ganking players too often as its really profitable for them and they like making others and only drawback is decent security loss which they dont care about. Either use alt or kill some rats to get it back.

Secondary problem is that demand for tritanium is currently much higher then its available creating bottleneck (and its not going to get better anytime soon because of huge amount of ships destroyed in 0.0). And this also making midrange materials cheaper as there is slight oversupply of it due tritanium limitation.

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There is a bottleneck for tritanium, as it is needed in huge amounts for capital ships. This does indeed make the other minerals effectively cheaper, reducing demand for `higher value' ore from low sec. Reprocessing mission loot is also giving too much high end minerals. There is another bottleneck in Prom and Dyspro, leading to market manipulation on a huge scale (manipulation made easier by the Jita problem), effectively reducing the value of other moon minerals and making POS operation in low sec less profitable. However you look at it, industrial players have less reason to go to low sec.

Originally by: Caelum Mortuos

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All of you people crying about risk/reward and the high price of trit

First of all. supply/demand. In the last few weeks well over 150 dreads have died. Capitals require millions of trit each, hence price rises.

Anyways. Even if trit is zomg 4.5 isk p/u, the best hulk miner out there is lucky to squeeze 14mil an hour out of mining "risk-free" (ever heard of suicide ganks?) Mining is also, for most, hideously boring.

High sec missions on the other hand are slightly more entertaining, and can earn more than double, are also risk-free and can provide as many minerals to the market as a hulk can.

Now tell me that mining income should be nerfed

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Originally by: Bibbleibble

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You forget that most of the reprocessing is from mission drops that have no basis in the player run market. They are in effect, free minerals. That is what the problem is, not reprocessing player built minerals.

About the not going to lowsec in non pvp ships, read the idea in my sig, and then say I haven't tried to address the issue.

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Originally by: Benzaiten Reverse

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Originally by: Bibbleibble

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You forget that most of the reprocessing is from mission drops that have no basis in the player run market. They are in effect, free minerals. That is what the problem is, not reprocessing player built minerals.

About the not going to lowsec in non pvp ships, read the idea in my sig, and then say I haven't tried to address the issue.

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No i dont forget that, actually most mission drops end up selling on market or in modulle bay in our corp eventualy as part of inventions.
Only bare minimum priceless and useless end up reprocessed and remanufactured to something else.

So no, mission drops are not free minerals at all, they are reward from killing ships and usually get used in one or another way before even considering reprocessing.

Much better source of minerals are drones, do you want nerf those already boooring with no rewards except their goo drops too ?

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Originally by: Kylar Renpurs

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Free market, working as intended.

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Originally by: Ocih

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Actually, had you been paying attention, you would know they stealth nerfed this a long time ago. For the hulk miners who used to get 400K dense from an .8 sec belt and now get 250K or so before it depletes it means mowing over more belts.

Nerf it? It didn't work.

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