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Xianbei
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Posted - 2009.07.30 21:06:00 -
[301]
 Originally by: Tortugan
Additionally:
- AFs are harder to hit than cruisers, therefore tank better by default
- AFs have ridiculously high resistances- it's not hard to get >80% across the board, which means excellent active tanks, and ridiculously good remote rep (1 large remote rep on an 80% resistance tanks 426 DPS- not even factoring in the size of the ship)
- AFs cost a fraction of the price of T2 ships of other classes- a Vengeance costs literally 1/7th the cost of a Zealot in Jita, and take about 1/3 the time to skill into
- A competent AF pilot will engage T2 cruisers, and leave if the fight doesn't go their way- I've engaged Pilgrims, Ishtars, Deimos', to name a few in my AF
- Every AF has a role- but no AF has every role
1. er, they are frigates, they are supposed to. including this in the list is a joke.
2. fine, lower the resistances a bit
3. lol using the vengeance as a price comparison. the least used AF. check ishkur prices lately ?
4. this is true for any ship
5. again, not an argument against or for, just a statement true for any ship
your arguments are weak except perhaps the resistances
t2 ships have 4 bonuses, except AF. fix it plz CCP. lower resistances to placate the whiners if you must.
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Stil Harkonnen
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Posted - 2009.07.31 01:56:00 -
[302]
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N Solarz
Caldari
Chaos Reborn
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Posted - 2009.07.31 06:29:00 -
[303]
/me wants to see an ishkur with scram range bonus. inties would sh** their pants.
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N Solarz
Caldari
Chaos Reborn
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Posted - 2009.07.31 06:39:00 -
[304]
/me wants to see an ishkur with scram range bonus. inties would sh** their pants.
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Tortugan
F9X
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Posted - 2009.07.31 08:52:00 -
[305]
Originally by: Xianbei
Originally by: Tortugan
Additionally:
- AFs are harder to hit than cruisers, therefore tank better by default
- AFs have ridiculously high resistances- it's not hard to get >80% across the board, which means excellent active tanks, and ridiculously good remote rep (1 large remote rep on an 80% resistance tanks 426 DPS- not even factoring in the size of the ship)
- AFs cost a fraction of the price of T2 ships of other classes- a Vengeance costs literally 1/7th the cost of a Zealot in Jita, and take about 1/3 the time to skill into
- A competent AF pilot will engage T2 cruisers, and leave if the fight doesn't go their way- I've engaged Pilgrims, Ishtars, Deimos', to name a few in my AF
- Every AF has a role- but no AF has every role
1. er, they are frigates, they are supposed to. including this in the list is a joke.
2. fine, lower the resistances a bit
3. lol using the vengeance as a price comparison. the least used AF. check ishkur prices lately ?
4. this is true for any ship
5. again, not an argument against or for, just a statement true for any ship
your arguments are weak except perhaps the resistances
t2 ships have 4 bonuses, except AF. fix it plz CCP. lower resistances to placate the whiners if you must.
Sorry- I thought all you fellas were the 'whiners' asking for a boost ^.^ So you're basically complaining that your AF is too cheap? I fly ishkurs, and I can attest that I have never paid too much for one.
As for vengeances- it's because so many people are caught up in the 'BOOST ROCKETS CLRLY THEY ARE BROKEN' bandwagon to realize that rockets aren't meant to put out a ****ton of DPS like blasters- they're meant to be an anti-frigate platform- which they do amazingly well as. If you're dumb enough to get in blaster range of an ishkur, then you deserve to lose your venge. Kill his drones, then watch his tank melt to your rockets.
Including that AFs are hard to hit is by no means a joke- it's an incredible tool, and acts as a gigantic boost to their survivability and versatility. Hence #5- you can engage anything and leave if it goes sour, whereas you couldn't do it as easily in a cruiser or bigger, since it's too easy to get scrammed/webbed if the other pilot knows what they're doing.
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Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy.
Killboard |
Lord Cath
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Posted - 2009.07.31 10:56:00 -
[306]
by now we know you dont agree with AF's getting a 4th bonus Tortugan.
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The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2009.07.31 11:23:00 -
[307]
People should stop feeding the troll.
You are not super pro by killing a lonly BS in a AF, the target simply was a noob or pve fitted. If you doubt this you can check my killmails for AFs that tryed to solo my Mega(you donŠt even need drones for them, the key is simply a neut). 
RR works with any kind of ship, and better for bigger ships since the got more buffer.
Any kind of ship is effective when you bring bigger numbers. By the ability to multitackle bigger ships are more effective since they can applay more DPS and got more HP. Any kind of sig/speed tank of a frig becomes next to useless if you have several webs on them anyway(or 10-20 Drones).
If you donŠt enter web range you will get preaty mutch owned by anything since you lack the buffer and at 20km you are a easy target, even for BS guns.
To AFs actualy yes they could need a the 4. Bonus to make them a more interesting ship class.
Wolf, Enyo, Harpy, Retrebution should have a extra damage bonus. They are ok in gangs to take down ceptors(a Destroyer also performs well here with the drawback of beeing a better target for bigger ships).
With this they also do better vs bigger targets like cruisers since the damage diffrence wouldnŠt be this big anymore giving them a better chance to take them down before drones eaten thrue your tank or you run into serious cap issues(even without beeing neuted).
Jaguar, Ishkur, Hawk, Vengance should have another bonus that helps them with tackling\tanking. 5% Signature radius reduction or 5% speed per level would be good, since it helps the ship to reduce incomming damage and works with MWD and AB.
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Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus
Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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SuiJuris
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Posted - 2009.07.31 14:31:00 -
[308]
Edited by: SuiJuris on 31/07/2009 14:31:52
Seriously Tortugan, Quit trying to say rockets are not broken, Its not that we want Blaster DPS out of them. Its that for the fitting reqs they should ATLEAST outdamage 3 unbonused Autocannons, but they fail to even do that. Just about anything with a SAR II fitted can tank a Vengeance.
They are broken, Sure they shoot out to 10km, but so do small pulse lasers, Also they are the only small turret / missile launcher that on average will have to reload before killing a frigate.
As for Djego, Giving the Vengeance ANOTHER tanking bonus would be a bit overpowered those things tank like champs.
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It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one." |
Discrodia
Guardian Legion
SCUM.
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Posted - 2009.07.31 14:37:00 -
[309]
___________________________________________
I can see my house from here! It's just... err.... you know, a few galaxies over. But I swear it's there! |
Tortugan
F9X
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Posted - 2009.08.01 04:22:00 -
[310]
Let me ask you this question, then, supporters:
If a battleship putting multiple webs & a point on an AF shouldn't be able to kill the thing, what should? FFS it's a frigate- it takes 2 weeks to train for a full T2 fit, and about 50m isk to fit WITH RIGS. You think they should be capable of taking out anti-AF BS?
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Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy.
Killboard |
Tortugan
F9X
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Posted - 2009.08.01 04:26:00 -
[311]
As for rockets- again, you're looking at it on paper. GL fighting against a venge with those small ACs of yours- last time I checked they do a bit less DPS at 20km.
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Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy.
Killboard |
Trinity Nova
Amarr
Unaccompanied Souls
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Posted - 2009.08.01 13:12:00 -
[312]
Originally by: Tortugan
Let me ask you this question, then, supporters:
If a battleship putting multiple webs & a point on an AF shouldn't be able to kill the thing, what should? FFS it's a frigate- it takes 2 weeks to train for a full T2 fit, and about 50m isk to fit WITH RIGS. You think they should be capable of taking out anti-AF BS?
Why do you have to be an idiot and a r3tard?
Buy Me
Solo Corp
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ilmon
On The Cloth
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Posted - 2009.08.01 13:56:00 -
[313]
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ArcticPrism
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Posted - 2009.08.03 02:05:00 -
[314]
Originally by: Tortugan
Let me ask you this question, then, supporters:
If a battleship putting multiple webs & a point on an AF shouldn't be able to kill the thing, what should? FFS it's a frigate- it takes 2 weeks to train for a full T2 fit, and about 50m isk to fit WITH RIGS. You think they should be capable of taking out anti-AF BS?
What do you describe an anti-AF BS as? Dual web + point is too vague.
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Tortugan
F9X
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Posted - 2009.08.03 03:57:00 -
[315]
Originally by: ArcticPrism
Originally by: Tortugan
Let me ask you this question, then, supporters:
If a battleship putting multiple webs & a point on an AF shouldn't be able to kill the thing, what should? FFS it's a frigate- it takes 2 weeks to train for a full T2 fit, and about 50m isk to fit WITH RIGS. You think they should be capable of taking out anti-AF BS?
What do you describe an anti-AF BS as? Dual web + point is too vague.
I'm asking you- supporters have been implying that AFs suck because a battleship fit to hit an AF can kill it- what the hell is wrong with a specifically fit battleship that takes months to properly train into, and at least 3 times as much to fit being able to kill a frigate you can train into in 2 weeks?
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Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy.
Killboard |
Youssef Daunch
SAE Academy
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Posted - 2009.08.03 05:31:00 -
[316]
Supported.
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.08.03 07:42:00 -
[317]
tortugan... I've not checked this thread in like weeks and you're still here droning on and regurgitating the same debunked objections for no discernable purpose other than to have something to do while you camp the jita undock.
C+P/COAD/General--->that way
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Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
Bomberlocks
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Posted - 2009.08.03 09:12:00 -
[318]
Yes, most definitely yes. In almost all classes, be it shield or armor, missile or turret, ab or mwd, the AFs suffer from being too weak for their price. Granted, the rigs change in the coming 1.5 patch will improve things, but they'll also improve things for the target, i.e. cruisers and t1 frigs will also have access to cheaper rigs. In fact after tzhe rigs patch t1 frigs will be even closer to t2 AFs and given that EVE is very much a rock/paper/scissors type of game where you can never fit an absolute winning combo, t2 AFs will be running an even greater danger against t1 frigs, since t1 frigs will as often as not motivated to fit gank rigs since they cost little and t2 AFs will be motivated to fit tank rigs to protect their investment.
Or at least that's the way I see it. EVE seems to be a game where you win by playing to your strengths and lose by playing to your weaknesses, i.e. the whole risk vs. reward thing. Put in those terms, t2 AFs are a big risk for the rewards they promise.
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Unfamed II
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.08.03 11:02:00 -
[319]
Jag boost? Gief!
Originally by: Sandslinger of CA
So this wasn't a straightoff logoffski from our point of view, rather a tactical manoeuvre
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Seppo Sankari
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Posted - 2009.08.03 11:04:00 -
[320]
This deserves the authentic Seal of Seppo, the biggest sign of approval!
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Dark Threat
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:37:00 -
[321]
agreed
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ArcticPrism
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Posted - 2009.08.03 17:54:00 -
[322]
Originally by: Tortugan
Originally by: ArcticPrism
Originally by: Tortugan
Let me ask you this question, then, supporters:
If a battleship putting multiple webs & a point on an AF shouldn't be able to kill the thing, what should? FFS it's a frigate- it takes 2 weeks to train for a full T2 fit, and about 50m isk to fit WITH RIGS. You think they should be capable of taking out anti-AF BS?
What do you describe an anti-AF BS as? Dual web + point is too vague.
I'm asking you- supporters have been implying that AFs suck because a battleship fit to hit an AF can kill it- what the hell is wrong with a specifically fit battleship that takes months to properly train into, and at least 3 times as much to fit being able to kill a frigate you can train into in 2 weeks?
Any battleship should be able to take down an AF if fitted for doing so. If you have some neuts +dual web and can turn off mwd/afterburner you should be able to hurt them pretty well. Warp scrambler might work well too seeing as nearly all frigates have mwd equipped. I would say you'd have better success with a cruiser/battlecruiser for destroying AFs though. They're faster and guns don't quite suck as much at tracking. I don't see any problem with that.
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Xorth Adimus
The Perfect Storm
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.08.03 20:17:00 -
[323]
Originally by: Wang Jing
Assault Ships (Assault Frigates) are currently the only T2 ships which do not receive 4 bonuses. It is only fair that this is addressed, and a lot of the ships in this class are in desperate need of another bonus:
Hawk and Vengeance: These need a second damage bonus, as they are currently outdamaged by the kestrel, a T1 frigate, and rockets in general give very poor performance for their fitting requirements. It is increasingly common for the vengeance to be fitted with blasters or lasers as even without bonuses they will outperform rockets. This is surely a sign something needs to be done.
Wolf and Jaguar: Given the concept of minmatar ships as being fast moving, outmanouevering their opponents and dancing around them, the lack of a tracking bonus on these ships is absurd. Given that their T1 counterpart, the infamous Rifter, receives this bonus, it is quite clear that it is necessary for the role they are most often required to perform; engaging the enemy in a tight orbit, using their superior speed to avoid the guns of a larger foe.
The other ships in this class, whilst having no glaring flaws, are still in need of help. For example, it is worrying when Gallente pilots in need of a high dps, take no prisoners blaster using frigate will pick an interceptor, the Taranis, over an assault frigate, the Enyo, everytime. In my view that is indicative of a serious problem with assault frigates, and I believe a 4th bonus will justify the cost of these ships and make them perform the way they should.
Agreed tracking/explosive velocity bonus needed.
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The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2009.08.05 10:22:00 -
[324]
Originally by: SuiJuris
As for Djego, Giving the Vengeance ANOTHER tanking bonus would be a bit overpowered those things tank like champs.
Well what do you think would be the best if you want to bring a heavy tackling Frig instead of a fast one(Ceptor)?
The Ceptor uses his speed and a low sig to envade damage(while the higher speed also makes him more likely to pin a target down). Im not intending to make it as survivealbe as a Ceptor(for pure Sig/Speed tank) but a bit stronger in this areas to give the ship a better performance in tackling by making it easier to stay under the guns. This wouldnŠt change mutch in the end if you get neuted, focused by a droneswarm or webed with multiple webs.
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Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus
Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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SuiJuris
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Posted - 2009.08.05 15:17:00 -
[325]
I know what your saying, but I think the Vengeance Very strongly needs a second damage bonus, I think it should get a ROF bonus for Rockets to make it into a little Sacrilege, Combine that with actually fixing rockets and it would be a very nice little ship.
It would be nice if the Venge could go about 3kms though, but then your trying to muscle the jag and wolf out of there niche.
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It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one." |
Razel Krieg
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Posted - 2009.08.05 17:12:00 -
[326]
supported
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Tenshi Sako
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Posted - 2009.08.10 15:15:00 -
[327]
gief
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pHenomena1337
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Posted - 2009.08.10 21:16:00 -
[328]
supported
my enyo waits for its 5% RoF bonus
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Kjar Achran
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Posted - 2009.08.13 10:43:00 -
[329]
bringing the thread back where it belongs
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2009.08.13 16:05:00 -
[330]
Originally by: Lord Cath
by now we know you dont agree with AF's getting a 4th bonus Tortugan.
Let's not jump to conclusions here. 
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