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[ISSUE] Give Assault Frigates a 4th Bonus

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Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.04.18 23:52:00 - [1] Assault Ships (Assault Frigates) are currently the only T2 ships which do not receive 4 bonuses. It is only fair that this is addressed, and a lot of the ships in this class are in desperate need of another bonus: Hawk and Vengeance: These need a second damage bonus, as they are currently outdamaged by the kestrel, a T1 frigate, and rockets in general give very poor performance for their fitting requirements. It is increasingly common for the vengeance to be fitted with blasters or lasers as even without bonuses they will outperform rockets. This is surely a sign something needs to be done. Wolf and Jaguar: Given the concept of minmatar ships as being fast moving, outmanouevering their opponents and dancing around them, the lack of a tracking bonus on these ships is absurd. Given that their T1 counterpart, the infamous Rifter, receives this bonus, it is quite clear that it is necessary for the role they are most often required to perform; engaging the enemy in a tight orbit, using their superior speed to avoid the guns of a larger foe. The other ships in this class, whilst having no glaring flaws, are still in need of help. For example, it is worrying when Gallente pilots in need of a high dps, take no prisoners blaster using frigate will pick an interceptor, the Taranis, over an assault frigate, the Enyo, everytime. In my view that is indicative of a serious problem with assault frigates, and I believe a 4th bonus will justify the cost of these ships and make them perform the way they should.
Efrim Black Aliastra	Posted - 2009.04.20 20:18:00 - [2] Originally by: Wang Jing Assault Ships (Assault Frigates) are currently the only T2 ships which do not receive 4 bonuses. It is only fair that this is addressed, and a lot of the ships in this class are in desperate need of another bonus: Hawk and Vengeance: These need a second damage bonus, as they are currently outdamaged by the kestrel, a T1 frigate, and rockets in general give very poor performance for their fitting requirements. It is increasingly common for the vengeance to be fitted with blasters or lasers as even without bonuses they will outperform rockets. This is surely a sign something needs to be done. Wolf and Jaguar: Given the concept of minmatar ships as being fast moving, outmanouevering their opponents and dancing around them, the lack of a tracking bonus on these ships is absurd. Given that their T1 counterpart, the infamous Rifter, receives this bonus, it is quite clear that it is necessary for the role they are most often required to perform; engaging the enemy in a tight orbit, using their superior speed to avoid the guns of a larger foe. The other ships in this class, whilst having no glaring flaws, are still in need of help. For example, it is worrying when Gallente pilots in need of a high dps, take no prisoners blaster using frigate will pick an interceptor, the Taranis, over an assault frigate, the Enyo, everytime. In my view that is indicative of a serious problem with assault frigates, and I believe a 4th bonus will justify the cost of these ships and make them perform the way they should. Not sure how this one escaped the main page. But here is +1 support.
Drake Draconis Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.04.20 20:45:00 - [3] I'm not savvy on Assault Frigs and even I tend to be reluctant to buff ships without a fair bit of research. But I've seen Efrim rant about the lack of love and popularity with Assault Frigs. I can dig it. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Lee Dalton THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2009.04.20 22:08:00 - [4] Supported. *** You're only as good as your last fight.
Zolian	Posted - 2009.04.21 01:40:00 - [5]
Bunyip Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.04.21 03:33:00 - [6] Agreed. I think this is more for CCP's QA department to work out, but I will bring it to their attention at the next meeting. "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table.
Relatyve Mynd	Posted - 2009.04.21 07:03:00 - [7] Edited by: Relatyve Mynd on 21/04/2009 07:04:22
Relatyve Mynd	Posted - 2009.04.21 07:04:00 - [8] please fix AF's.
eliminator2 Annihilate. Shock Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.21 08:50:00 - [9] agreed they don't live up to their name of "assault" frigates
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.04.21 11:02:00 - [10] Thanks for the support so far! With the big balance thread going on, nows the time to get this fixed. There are plenty of people asking for it there, but of course it can always get ignored, or just slip under the radar again, so if you haven't already done so please post in this thread with it as one of your priorities: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1051722 Cheers!

Jin Labarre	Posted - 2009.04.21 14:03:00 - [11] Since I love Assault Ships, I'd love to see them receiving more love. Even if it means encountering even more Russian campers in Assault Ships.
Lord Cath	Posted - 2009.04.21 15:38:00 - [12] Edited by: Lord Cath on 21/04/2009 15:44:50 AF's could use a bit of boost indeed. What i concider being worth mentioning as well is apart from the missing bonus, there's the retribution with only 1 medium slot, making it a rather limited AF in comparisson to the rest
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.04.21 16:18:00 - [13] Originally by: Lord Cath Edited by: Lord Cath on 21/04/2009 15:44:50 AF's could use a bit of boost indeed. What i concider being worth mentioning as well is apart from the missing bonus, there's the retribution with only 1 medium slot, making it a rather limited AF in comparisson to the rest I very much agree, the Retribution is entirely useless for solo work (unless you want to try honour tackling), and, outside of frigate hull gangs, the only job you need an Assault Frigate for is heavy tackle; turn up for a fleet in a Retribution and you'll probably be asked to come back in something useful. On top of that, just to rub it in, the alternative for Amarr AF pilots is outdamaged by T1 Frigates. Someone at CCP is having a laugh at your expense
chromez0r Gallente Dead 2 Rights	Posted - 2009.04.21 20:38:00 - [14] agree 100% with this, af's need that little bit extra, and as mentioned why is it that the retribution only has 1 mid slot :<. kinda makes it hard to pvp in it with only 1 mid slot (you either put in a mwd/ab to keep up with things, or you stick a point and not be able to keep up.)
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2009.04.21 21:59:00 - [15]
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.04.22 11:19:00 - [16] Edited by: Wang Jing on 22/04/2009 11:19:36 Not one, but two CSM canditates responding I'm glad this issue has your support guys, and as an alt of one of the less legally inhibited pod pilots i'm pleased to see our esteem C+P candidate here! As a fairly new pirate in a 2-man corp, I fly solo for a lot of the time, and I need a ship small and fast enough to avoid the camps and blobs, yet with the firepower to deal with any juicy targets I come across. With a little bit of a boost, Assault Frigates could be the perfect tool for players like myself who want to avoid the whos-got-the-bigger-blob style of PvP. Hopefully this thread alongside the many mentions in the big thread of balance will get CCPs attention and get this sorted
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.04.22 14:47:00 - [17] Why be so surprised? It's a good idea. : O )
Noa Fuyu Black Eclipse Corp KenZoku	Posted - 2009.04.22 15:25:00 - [18] Veng is the Tanking ship. If anything it should get bonus's to tank harder. Retri is the killing machine. Pair em up and fun fun fun :) -------------------------- I would throw a hundred ships into the void just to see you crushed.
Finnroth Caldari The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation	Posted - 2009.04.22 15:34:00 - [19] Definite thumb up for this one, poor little friggis.
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.04.22 15:49:00 - [20] Originally by: Noa Fuyu Veng is the Tanking ship. If anything it should get bonus's to tank harder. Retri is the killing machine. Pair em up and fun fun fun :) The problem is unless rockets are fixed, the vengeance does better damage using blasters or lasers, even with the rocket damage bonus. It really needs a double damage bonus to redeem it. I do agree with a tanking bonus for some ships though, personally I think the Enyo would be a good candidate.

Foolish Bob Caldari The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2009.04.22 16:30:00 - [21] I love assault frigs, but I'm not sure that an added bonus is necessarily the way to go - I think it might be too blunt an instrument. Take the vengence for instance - it's role isn't a dps ship - the whole reason for it being there as I see it is for you to sit there eating dps and holding point whilst your gang warps in to gank the poor fool you've got locked down - something that it does suprememly well. If you gave it a dps boost too, I'm not sure that's not overpowered. On the other side of the coin, I'd equally say that the retribution doesn't need an extra bonus, but I'd sell my dear old gran into slavery for an extra mid and 44tf of CPU. This thread needs to be more specific - after all wolfpacks of a few inties and af are nasty little blighters - even when your fleet is only the other side of the system. Once we have concrete improvements that won't attract the nerf bat, then we'll have something to support.
The Monkeysphere The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.04.22 16:48:00 - [22] Assault frigates need to be nerfed.
Odysseus Black	Posted - 2009.04.22 16:55:00 - [23] Originally by: The Monkeysphere Assault frigates need to be nerfed. Cute. Adding a support for more T2 Bonuses like all the other T2 ships. Not supporting meddling with the slot layouts.. I think the bonuses will do enough.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.04.22 16:56:00 - [24] I'm always leary of slot changes... other than the dreaded 1 Mid Slot Amarr Tech 2 ships.
The Monkeysphere The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.04.22 17:00:00 - [25] 1 med slot Amarr ships are fine. Cross-train Caldari if you're too stupid to figure out a good ship setup.
Odysseus Black	Posted - 2009.04.22 17:11:00 - [26] Originally by: The Monkeysphere 1 med slot Amarr ships are fine. Cross-train Caldari if you're too stupid to figure out a good ship setup. Troll. This thread is about T2 Bonuses and the fact that the Assault ships don't have enough. Maybe you should try hooked on phonics if you're too stupid to read forums.
The Monkeysphere The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.04.22 17:24:00 - [27] I find assault frigates to be fine. In fact I have innumerable kills in them, including the supposedly terrible Retribution. You ought to stop sucking.
Efrim Black Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.04.22 17:34:00 - [28] Originally by: The Monkeysphere I find assault frigates to be fine. (brag) You ought to stop sucking. Thats your opinion, and it's nice. (Good for you) Sucking has nothing to do with the proposal. It's not even a matter of opinion. It's a basic Logical argument. Premise 1 : T2 Ships have 4 bonuses. Premise 2 : Assault ships are T2 Ships. Premise 3 : Assault ships do not have 4 bonuses. Conclusion : Assault ships should either get 4 bonuses, or all other t2 ships should get nerfed. Between those two options, I'll take the AFs getting a bit of love. If you like Assault ships, what possible reason could you have for not wanting them to be a bit better?
The Monkeysphere The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.04.22 17:43:00 - [29] They do have 4 bonuses. The fourth one is hidden, that's all. It used to be public but people kept whining about the apparently bad bonus. A lot of people are very bad at this game.
Doublemuff The Drips	Posted - 2009.04.22 18:13:00 - [30] +1

Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.04.22 18:23:00 - [31] Originally by: Foolish Bob I love assault frigs, but I'm not sure that an added bonus is necessarily the way to go - I think it might be too blunt an instrument. Take the vengence for instance - it's role isn't a dps ship - the whole reason for it being there as I see it is for you to sit there eating dps and holding point whilst your gang warps in to gank the poor fool you've got locked down - something that it does suprememly well. If you gave it a dps boost too, I'm not sure that's not overpowered. On the other side of the coin, I'd equally say that the retribution doesn't need an extra bonus, but I'd sell my dear old gran into slavery for an extra mid and 44tf of CPU. This thread needs to be more specific - after all wolfpacks of a few inties and af are nasty little blighters - even when your fleet is only the other side of the system. Once we have concrete improvements that won't attract the nerf bat, then we'll have something to support. To be honest, as Efrim has said, all other T2 ships get a 4th bonus, its just ridiculous that AFs don't. However, in regards to your point, about the vengeance, yes it performs well as a heavy tackler already, but a second damage bonus would hardly make it overpowered, given that its outdamaged by a kestrel. I'm not proposing damage bonuses for all of them, in fact its only the Veng and the Hawk that I personally think need it. But for every single one of them there are useful bonuses they could be given to bring them in line with all other T2 ships without making them uber. I did make another thread in Features and Suggestions that had some decent discussion in it: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1050315 Perhaps people can present their ideas here, however to be honest I'd be happy if CCP just consider giving them the extra bonus, let alone ones we would actually like
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.04.22 18:28:00 - [32] Edited by: Wang Jing on 22/04/2009 18:28:48 Originally by: The Monkeysphere They do have 4 bonuses. The fourth one is hidden, that's all. It used to be public but people kept whining about the apparently bad bonus. A lot of people are very bad at this game. This just shows that either you're trolling (badly) or don't actually fly AFs as much as you like to think; the old bonus for resists was moved to being built into the hull (like all other T2 ships) but they never got a new 4th bonus (the one which all other T2 ships have).
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.04.22 21:09:00 - [33] Originally by: The Monkeysphere This is what I see every time he posts. I Suggest everyone else does the same. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
The Monkeysphere The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.04.22 21:38:00 - [34] á
Klytemnestra Dianira	Posted - 2009.04.22 23:13:00 - [35] Originally by: The Monkeysphere á QFT!
BlondieBC Ardent Industrial Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.23 01:49:00 - [36] supported. I would like to see all assualt frigates get a 15% bonus to afterbuners, this both helps the AF and the afterburner.
Molock Saronen	Posted - 2009.04.23 09:38:00 - [37]
Jaina Proudmoar Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.04.23 13:08:00 - [38] Originally by: Wang Jing Edited by: Wang Jing on 22/04/2009 18:28:48 Originally by: The Monkeysphere They do have 4 bonuses. The fourth one is hidden, that's all. It used to be public but people kept whining about the apparently bad bonus. A lot of people are very bad at this game. This just shows that either you're trolling (badly) or don't actually fly AFs as much as you like to think; the old bonus for resists was moved to being built into the hull (like all other T2 ships) but they never got a new 4th bonus (the one which all other T2 ships have). You have never seen the PL forums have you?
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.04.23 13:48:00 - [39] Originally by: Jaina Proudmoar Originally by: Wang Jing Edited by: Wang Jing on 22/04/2009 18:28:48 Originally by: The Monkeysphere They do have 4 bonuses. The fourth one is hidden, that's all. It used to be public but people kept whining about the apparently bad bonus. A lot of people are very bad at this game. This just shows that either you're trolling (badly) or don't actually fly AFs as much as you like to think; the old bonus for resists was moved to being built into the hull (like all other T2 ships) but they never got a new 4th bonus (the one which all other T2 ships have). You have never seen the PL forums have you? Nope, if its more of the same then wow, where do i sign up?
Jaina Proudmoar Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.04.23 15:38:00 - [40] Originally by: Wang Jing Originally by: Jaina Proudmoar Originally by: Wang Jing Edited by: Wang Jing on 22/04/2009 18:28:48 Originally by: The Monkeysphere They do have 4 bonuses. The fourth one is hidden, that's all. It used to be public but people kept whining about the apparently bad bonus. A lot of people are very bad at this game. This just shows that either you're trolling (badly) or don't actually fly AFs as much as you like to think; the old bonus for resists was moved to being built into the hull (like all other T2 ships) but they never got a new 4th bonus (the one which all other T2 ships have). You have never seen the PL forums have you? Nope, if its more of the same then wow, where do i sign up? I fullheartedly recommend that you all head over to https://www.pandemic-legion.com/forums/ and apply to join The Illuminati [O****].

Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.04.23 16:31:00 - [41] Recruitment boards are that way ---> http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=channel&channelID=109585 ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.04.23 17:17:00 - [42] Originally by: isdisco3 Edited by: isdisco3 on 22/04/2009 22:37:24 Well, I'm a glutton for punishment, so I counted the first 13 pages of this thread. I stopped there because its time to get beer, pizza, and watch hockey. As a disclaimer, I grouped several complaints together. Complaints about "boost damps!" were included with "non-ECM ewar sucks!" and "webs are horribly nerfed." This is because I view them as part of the same problem. For the same reason, anything related to minmatar projectile turrets were included in one category, all issues relating to t2 ammo were in the same category, and all complaints about minmatar ships (which were by far the most common) are in one category. Here's all votes that I saw getting 15 or more votes in the first 13 pages. 1. minmatar projectiles (artilleries, autocannons, regardless of size - 102 2. minmatar ships (capitals, bs, recons, and so on) - 93 3. general re-balance of regions (complaints about risk / reward of highsec, lowsec, and 0.0, mostly missions) - 62 4. blasters - 61 5. t2 ammunition (typically short-range, but complaints were about it in general) - 57 6. rockets - 31 7. sov, pos, and the resulting 0.0 warfare - 27 8. non-ECM ewar (typically, boost it) - 27 9. ecm drones specifically - 20 10. types of tanking (passive vs armor vs shield vs hull) - 20 11. titans - 18 12. assault ships - 17 13. pos setup and logistics - 16 please quote this or whatever if you find it useful, i would not want the summary to get lost in the middle of page 23 (as it is now!). i tried to be fair in the summary, i'm sure some toes are being stepped on by grouping things together. Prepare to be drowned out by those whining harder Then again, ECM Drones have only 3 more votes and CCP have decided they'll get the first swing of the nerbat, so who knows...
Efrim Black Gallente Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.04.23 17:35:00 - [43] Originally by: Wang Jing Prepare to be drowned out by those whining harder Then again, ECM Drones have only 3 more votes and CCP have decided they'll get the first swing of the nerbat, so who knows... Awesome. Glad to see projectiles at the top of the list.
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2009.04.24 10:43:00 - [44] Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 24/04/2009 10:43:06 I only can agree, waiting for this for 2 years now :> I am patient ...
Zhula Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.04.24 13:43:00 - [45] There is no general problem with AFs. They might suffer from (comming?) agility nerf, but TQ AFs are fine. Vengance: good tackling with strong tank (for a frig). If you cannot outdamage a Kestrel , outtank it. Problem solved. Jaguar: one of best AFs in Eve. Wolf: little bit tricky, but ok, especially in wolfpacks. A general problem with T2 frigates (not only AFs) is the high price tag. For more details read: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1051722&page=24#702
Lazarann Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.04.24 14:10:00 - [46] Yes please, it's much needed.
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.04.24 14:16:00 - [47] Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks There is no general problem with AFs. They might suffer from (comming?) agility nerf, but TQ AFs are fine. Vengance: good tackling with strong tank (for a frig). If you cannot outdamage a Kestrel , outtank it. Problem solved. Jaguar: one of best AFs in Eve. Wolf: little bit tricky, but ok, especially in wolfpacks. A general problem with T2 frigates (not only AFs) is the high price tag. For more details read: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1051722&page=24#702 There is no general problem, but some of them are so badly gimped that even with a price drop they'll still get laughed at. If you cant see a problem with people fitting blasters and lasers on a Vengeance instead of its bonused weapons, I dont know what to say. Plus, you've forgotten about the Hawk... The Jag may be on of the best AF's, but that doesn't say anything as to how AF's compare to other ships, particularly other T2 ships, which is where the problem lies in my opinion. I'd much rather see them remain at the same price and get a bit of a boost. If you want to be economical, fly a T1 cruiser.
Efrim Black Gallente Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.04.24 17:05:00 - [48] Originally by: Wang Jing I'd much rather see them remain at the same price and get a bit of a boost. If you want to be economical, fly a T1 cruiser. I disagree. While I support adding the missing 4th bonus, a price drop in Assault ships would mean me flying them exclusively. Forever. If a Jag cost me even just 10mil, as opposed to 20+ I'd never fly anything else. The prices are absurd. Even for t2.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.04.24 19:00:00 - [49] Unfortunately prices can't be locked... its a player driven market. If demand goes up... prices go up... if demand drops... they go down. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.04.24 19:08:00 - [50] Originally by: Efrim Black Originally by: Wang Jing I'd much rather see them remain at the same price and get a bit of a boost. If you want to be economical, fly a T1 cruiser. I disagree. While I support adding the missing 4th bonus, a price drop in Assault ships would mean me flying them exclusively. Forever. If a Jag cost me even just 10mil, as opposed to 20+ I'd never fly anything else. The prices are absurd. Even for t2. Well, hope springs eternal, but I simply don't see a boost and a price drop (through changing the material requirements or whatever) happening. Given the choice between the two, I'd much much prefer the 4th bonus than a pricedrop and them not getting looked at again for years. I'd love to be able to fly them exclusively, but really, if they were that good, how long before they got nerfed into oblivion?

Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.24 19:23:00 - [51] Yeah assault frigs are really terrible at everything and they should be fixed, thanks.
Lt Shard United Trade Coalition	Posted - 2009.04.24 22:04:00 - [52] cool _________________________ Yes, I know the Titan is small in my sig.
Keitoshi Yamada Mjolnir Inc.	Posted - 2009.04.25 00:57:00 - [53] It's very true. Most people I see skip the AF for the HAC since it fills its role better. Sucks when an Interceptor can out-dps an Assault Frigate. ----- Nerf or ---> Speed Exploiters Ban -----
xOmGx Warriors tribe Red Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.25 11:24:00 - [54] Edited by: xOmGx on 25/04/2009 11:23:49 AF need 4th bonus indeed And BTW every T2 ship shoud have hes OWN ROLE Bonus, so every T2 ship has his own role in gang. No Pain - No Gain
Thercon Jair Nex Exercitus Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.04.25 16:42:00 - [55] Originally by: Wang Jing Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks There is no general problem with AFs. They might suffer from (comming?) agility nerf, but TQ AFs are fine. Vengance: good tackling with strong tank (for a frig). If you cannot outdamage a Kestrel , outtank it. Problem solved. Jaguar: one of best AFs in Eve. Wolf: little bit tricky, but ok, especially in wolfpacks. A general problem with T2 frigates (not only AFs) is the high price tag. For more details read: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1051722&page=24#702 There is no general problem, but some of them are so badly gimped that even with a price drop they'll still get laughed at. If you cant see a problem with people fitting blasters and lasers on a Vengeance instead of its bonused weapons, I dont know what to say. Plus, you've forgotten about the Hawk... The Jag may be on of the best AF's, but that doesn't say anything as to how AF's compare to other ships, particularly other T2 ships, which is where the problem lies in my opinion. I'd much rather see them remain at the same price and get a bit of a boost. If you want to be economical, fly a T1 cruiser. You know what the funny thing is when I hear people quote "The Jag is one of the best AFs"? Have you looked at how people fit this ship, then took a look at the bonuses? The bonus suggests Artillery as the ships weapon of choice, and, AFs are meant to speed/signature tank, yet, the "tank" most people fit is a medium shield extender and an AB/MWD and Web/point. It's quite ridiculous that the long range minnie AF gets used as the short range heavy tackler with Autocannons (not by me though ;p ) Also, I fully endorse the adding of a fourth bonus to the Assault Frigates, although it doesn't necessarily need to be the bonuses proposed by the OP. Real men do it the hard way: fly Minmatar!
Eskalin Evolution KenZoku	Posted - 2009.04.25 17:11:00 - [56] +1 If babies weren't to be eaten they wouldn't be hibachi sized
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.04.25 18:20:00 - [57] Edited by: Wang Jing on 25/04/2009 18:21:28 I was gonna write a big post arguing about long range fitted AFs, but to be honest, I don't really care. Its great that people have success with both autos and artys, would be a shame if there was one good way to fit a ship and everything else didn't work. It would remove the ingeunity in putting together a fit noone has thought of before. What I'm really trying to say is that I hope the 4th bonus isn't one that confines the ships to being used in a certain way. For example, if only the Wolf was given a tracking bonus and not the Jag, you'd be forced to use a Wolf if you want to get up close and personal - the way I like to fly my Jag, but am finding really suffers from not having the tracking of a Rifter. Of course, a tracking bonus would also suit the Arty use as well, hence not confining ships to a particular role.
Martin Vaun	Posted - 2009.04.26 16:01:00 - [58] Agree. Would also like to see slot layout/CPU/PG redone on some of them.
Alekseyev Karrde Noir.	Posted - 2009.04.27 06:20:00 - [59] Originally by: The Monkeysphere They do have 4 bonuses. The fourth one is hidden, that's all. It used to be public but people kept whining about the apparently bad bonus. A lot of people are very bad at this game. They did a similar thing with the Apoc but they still replaced the "old" bonus that was now built in with a real bonus. CCP took an important step in half recognizing the resist increases should have been native to the ship when it comes out of the oven. They need to go the rest of the way and add the fourth bonus. --- Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam
Lewyrus Jugis Modo Utopia Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.04.27 09:24:00 - [60]

Carmine Cerise	Posted - 2009.04.27 16:40:00 - [61]
Vuoto	Posted - 2009.04.27 19:26:00 - [62] the use of drones could be the best way to pump a sad class as AF is, perfectly!
Galison	Posted - 2009.04.28 14:54:00 - [63] Edited by: Galison on 28/04/2009 14:55:09 Vuoto I don't understand your comment about drones are you saying they need to be on all AFs? If so wouldn't the Enyo and more importantly Ishkur consider that a nerf on them since its a drone frigate? My idea would be maybe a limited dmg bonus for using t2 ammo or possibly a reduction in the penalty some t2 ammo has. Like at the momment my ishkur with t2 150s which isnt important does 740m/s with a normal AB load javelin S (20% speed penalty per gun loaded with it) into all 3 guns and it goes down to mid 300s say give AF no speed penalty or lower it to in an AF 5% or 10% or a reduction in the tracking penalty these kinds of changes could help all the AF's and I don't just mean the higher dmg t2 ammo in the case of say spike S which has a massive range bonus have AFs increase that as well or add say an af speed bonus. Would make AF more attractive and useful as well as make t2 ammo more enjoyable to use in them. Galison PS I use the Ishkur as an example as I can only fly the Gal AFs and use T2 hybrids so I haven't looked at the t2 ammo of projectiles or missles but I'd guess their bonus and penaltys are about the same in general.
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.04.28 17:09:00 - [64] Originally by: Galison Edited by: Galison on 28/04/2009 14:55:09 Vuoto I don't understand your comment about drones are you saying they need to be on all AFs? If so wouldn't the Enyo and more importantly Ishkur consider that a nerf on them since its a drone frigate? My idea would be maybe a limited dmg bonus for using t2 ammo or possibly a reduction in the penalty some t2 ammo has. Like at the momment my ishkur with t2 150s which isnt important does 740m/s with a normal AB load javelin S (20% speed penalty per gun loaded with it) into all 3 guns and it goes down to mid 300s say give AF no speed penalty or lower it to in an AF 5% or 10% or a reduction in the tracking penalty these kinds of changes could help all the AF's and I don't just mean the higher dmg t2 ammo in the case of say spike S which has a massive range bonus have AFs increase that as well or add say an af speed bonus. Would make AF more attractive and useful as well as make t2 ammo more enjoyable to use in them. Galison PS I use the Ishkur as an example as I can only fly the Gal AFs and use T2 hybrids so I haven't looked at the t2 ammo of projectiles or missles but I'd guess their bonus and penaltys are about the same in general. Judging from the big balance thread in the Game Development forum, T2 ammo, and T2 damage ammo in particular, is going to get looked at/boosted, so I don't think any bonus related to them is really going to happen.
Kralin Ignatov Mentis Fidelis Avarice.	Posted - 2009.04.29 01:36:00 - [65] /signed
Thalene	Posted - 2009.04.29 03:21:00 - [66] /Support
Ven Elak	Posted - 2009.04.29 03:38:00 - [67] Supported.
CrestoftheStars Violent Force Productions	Posted - 2009.04.29 03:41:00 - [68] support. although would like too see a class bonus of 25% speed increase in AB used on af's ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded
Thresh Avery Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.04.29 04:40:00 - [69] Agreed! Excellent proposal. Originally by: BlondieBC supported. I would like to see all assualt frigates get a 15% bonus to afterbuners, this both helps the AF and the afterburner. This is a bad idea. I appreciate how afterburners have forever been neglected, but if you give a potential 75% bonus to afterburner speed bonus then AFs would be insanely difficult to kill. A 5% bonus maybe, but no more.
Kjar Achran	Posted - 2009.04.29 20:12:00 - [70] fully supported

Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.04.30 18:14:00 - [71] Originally by: CrestoftheStars support. although would like too see a class bonus of 25% speed increase in AB used on af's Not keen on this, as its a bonus that would basically be useless in 0.0 plus some people like to fly range fits with mwd.
Efrim Black Gallente Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.04.30 18:26:00 - [72] Originally by: Wang Jing Originally by: CrestoftheStars support. although would like too see a class bonus of 25% speed increase in AB used on af's Not keen on this, as its a bonus that would basically be useless in 0.0 plus some people like to fly range fits with mwd. If it affects base agility, this would be perfect for ABs and MWs. Just a suggestion. I don't think this issue will gather enough steam to get any real action, but it's worth the shot.
Halarach	Posted - 2009.05.01 16:35:00 - [73] Supported, and please give 2 mid slots to the Retri.
Cre'nor	Posted - 2009.05.01 20:41:00 - [74] /signed
Hexor V I.M.M Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.05.02 05:35:00 - [75] Anything to make them more than a waste of 20-30m, thumbs up.
Zostera Honour Bound Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2009.05.03 11:40:00 - [76] Supported.
Simokon	Posted - 2009.05.03 13:27:00 - [77]
Shadow Devourer	Posted - 2009.05.04 11:12:00 - [78] YES
Kiri Serrensun	Posted - 2009.05.04 21:38:00 - [79] A boost for all of them would be nice--especially the Vengeance.
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.04 22:40:00 - [80] Originally by: Kiri Serrensun A boost for all of them would be nice--especially the Vengeance. So very true. Out of interest, aside from the massive failure that is rockets, do you think that there are any other issues with the Veng, for example, lack of grid/cpu? I only ask because it seems that rockets are high up on the big CCP list of "stuff we really need to fix". If they were to get a boost and bring the Veng/Hawk dps up to a reasonable standard with the existing damage bonus, what would you guys suggest for the 4th bonus for the Vengeance?

Octavio Santillian Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.05.05 00:10:00 - [81] Edited by: Octavio Santillian on 05/05/2009 00:10:24 I dislike the inconsistency of thier not having a 4th bonus, and they are not so powerful that 4th bonus would throw the cosmic balance all catawampus. Seriously, itÆs not like the space lanes are being overrun with AFs, or would be with a 4th bonus. I know that that their resists are considered the 4th bonus (technically they once were listed as a bonus), but most T2 ships have enhanced resistances that are not granted via a bonus. This only makes sense for an assault class ship. PSàswap the Wolf and Jaguar range bonuses for god sakes.
killerbitsch	Posted - 2009.05.05 09:30:00 - [82] /signed
Vera Demo	Posted - 2009.05.06 01:01:00 - [83] I am very much in support of this. It would be great if I did not have to switch out to a punisher from my retribution the second a fleet op is called.
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.06 16:09:00 - [84] Edited by: Wang Jing on 06/05/2009 16:17:00 Cases where the missing 2nd bonus from the T1 ship is ideal for the Assault Frigate: Harpy: Adding the 5% resists per level bonus from the Merlin here is just so face meltingly obvious. This would then bring it into line with the Eagle, giving us a pair of powerful Ishukone gunships. Retribution: The Punisher's resists bonus would help this ship become a smaller version of the Absolution, another Carthum Conglomerate ship. On the subject of face-meltingly obvious, sort out this ships midslots so Amarr AF pilots have somthing to fly that isn't crippled by rockets. Jaguar and Wolf: A Rifter without its tracking bonus would be a very sad sight indeed, yet thats what these two have become. Minmatar interceptors inherit the tracking bonus from their T1 counterpart, yet the Assault Frigates miss out on one of the most important aspects of the Rifter. AF's should not have trouble hitting when in a tight orbit; fights against other frigate hulls often end up as close-range knife fight, in which case these ships are unable to bring their firepower to bear. Additionally, when fighting larger ship classes they rely on their speed and size to outtrack their opponents in a tight orbit. Slowing down so you can actually hit doesn't often end well For anyone at CCP reading this, I hope you can see that there isn't a whole lot of work to be done when fully half of the ships in this class can be given a cut and paste job from the T1 hulls. Furthermore, using Heavy Assault Ships bonuses as a template for how i believe Assault Ships (Assault Frigates) should be, it is the rule rather than the exception that the T2 ship does not have the 2 bonuses from its T1 sibling. It is true for all these ships: Eagle Cerberus Ishtar Deimos Vagabond Muninn Zealot That makes all but one, the Sacriledge, which has 1 bonus changed to match its different weapon systems. Moving up in size, when it comes to command ships, there is only one which doesn't receive the 2 bonuses from its T1 counterpart, the Nighthawk. As with the Sacriledge, this is a case of one bonuse being different to go with its use of missiles rather than hybrid turrets. It isn't sensible to take this argument any further up in size as the T2 BS are generally not regarded as PvP ships. However I hope this makes a good case for giving Assault Frigates their missing bonus from the T1 hull wherever sensible, keeping them in line with the other T2 ships.
Nicoli Malthus The First Somerset Strikers	Posted - 2009.05.06 16:27:00 - [85]
Brengholl	Posted - 2009.05.08 02:16:00 - [86] AFs need their fourth bonus they're 40mil ships that can barely kill a destroyer sure they work in gangs... but anything works if you outnumber your opponent enough the weber nerf helped AFs bit, but the missing bonus would be just enough to balance the cost effectivnes out
Ranamar	Posted - 2009.05.08 04:52:00 - [87] As someone who's considering acquiring AFs, I fully support this motion, especially because I want to be able to fly a Hawk.
Foolish Bob Caldari The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2009.05.08 09:14:00 - [88] Originally by: Vera Demo I am very much in support of this. It would be great if I did not have to switch out to a punisher from my retribution the second a fleet op is called. This I don't get - the retribution is explicitly a fleet ship imo and it's great at it. The ability to project solid dps to 20km and melt faces at point blank whilst at the same time eating damage - that's what the more ganky af's are for, surely! The point about the vengence weapons is spot on - it is completely insane that the majority of fits (mine included) opt for projectile weapons as opposed to rockets, but that's an inherent problem with rockets. If they fix them, then I'm still not sure I see where the extra bonus comes from without making it overpowered. 100-120 dps (hopefully - let's see what CCP come up with though) and the ability to tank like a beast is more than enough, isn't it. Mind you I rather like the afterburner idea. More discussions! AF's are far from perfect, but they do now rock a little at least. The trick is to chart a course that doesn't attract the nerf bat, and I'm still not sold that 4th bonuses are the way to go. I'm willing to be convinced though, so get to it!
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.08 10:07:00 - [89] Well, the thing with a retribution is, you can fit an omen or even a prophecy to do better dps and tank better for less isk. The advantage of an AF in fleets is its speed and agility; in fleets this means it serves best as heavy tackle. I'm not saying its totally useless, and i can see why people would still choose to fly it, but in terms of balance, an uninsurable 20+ mil isk ship should have some utility over an insurable 5 mil isk ship.
Shereza	Posted - 2009.05.08 23:26:00 - [90] Frankly, assault ships need to either have a fourth bonus or have one of their bonuses changed to a role bonus and then be reassigned as faction frigates with the resistance bonuses left in place, or slightly modified, as a prelude to faction ships in general being boosted. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.

Rahjadan Shardur Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.05.09 00:00:00 - [91] i support the 4th bonus ------------------ In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. (Douglas Adams)
Foolish Bob Caldari The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2009.05.09 00:59:00 - [92] Originally by: Wang Jing Well, the thing with a retribution is... You're absolutely not wrong about the omen - my shield omen hits harder, aligns faster and has more EHP than my buffered retri. Coming from FW though, there is a key point about them (and similar af's) that makes me nervous about having another bonus. Against cruisers and higher - the other day part of my fleet that I was with caught a rupture at a gate. The pilot either realised that his chances of escape were slim or thought to make a fight of it, but either way turned his attention to my little retribution - which sat there and laughed as his guns nibbled fitfully at my buffer. Had I been in my omen I'd have been a mite more concerned. Battleships are the same story. Against frigs and destroyers - this is the main bonus in my view - good dps and more than twice the scan res of the omen means that frigs, and even inties melt almost as soon as a few of these appear on the field. When warping a fleet into battle, I often give the order for weapons free on small ships before we consolidate on a primary a) because seeing 4-5 enemy ship simultaneously detonate 5 seconds after you've loaded grid is very VERY cool and b) nothing demoralises a fleet like having a quarter of their number in pods before their fc has finished saying what the primary target is Retributions work especially well in this kind of role because of the advantages of scorch ammo, and if they are hit first, they last a lot longer than, say, a thrasher in the same role. In small-medium gang knife fights like this then, when paired with interceptors, assault frigs of all flavours (except maybe the caldari ones) really shine, and I'm concerned that any bonus you could add would make them a little blinding. Consider the options for boosting: EHP Rep DPS Speed Sig Rad Speed first. Yes there is a case for making ab's more effective on af's, but either the boost is insubstantial or we're in the realms of reaching the speed of an ab inty, and we justify that? Sig Rad. Af's are already a bugger to hit for solo targets. I'm not sure we can argue that one. DPS. Yes I know - the vengence. Still let's wait for the rockets boost for that one. The others though all do good solid (and in some cases insane) dps. I don't think we have a case for making them even more potent in this department. Rep. My instinct is that the vengence is probably as good as we want to go on this. Making the other tackle af's match that is probably the best we can do, and that can best be done by tweaking existing bonuses rather than adding new ones EHP. Most af can already almost field the ehp of a light cruiser, with the aforementioned buggerness to hit. I don't think we can justify any more. There framework for discussion laid out.
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.09 10:01:00 - [93] Excellent post Foolish Bob! I've seen you flying around in your Vengeance btw I'll say hello next time. Ok, so, you have perfectly valid concers, and I think to be honest the only way to address them is on a case by case basis. Please forgive the EFT warrioring here First of all, I'm basing this on the idea that Assault Ships/Frigates should be to Cruisers as Heavy Assault Ships/HACs are to Battlecruisers. Smaller and faster but with similar dps and tank, in exchange for a lot more isk. Given the popularity of HACs in guerilla warfare style attacks, this is definitly worth the isk. However when people want to do the same thing in frigate hulls, it seems Taranises and Stealth Bombers are the way to go (for further reading join the channel "Garmonism" ). Note I've used fits from SHC/Battleclinic to try and keep all examples used reasonable. With that established, I'm going to compare Assault Frigs as the are now to Cruisers, and do the same with HACs and Battlecruisers. I want to look at the Harpy first. As already stated, I believe it should get the %5 resists per level in common with every other Caldari Railboat. This would give it the same 4 bonus as the Eagle. [Harpy, Blaster ] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 1MN Afterburner II Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Patterned Stasis Web I Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S [empty high slot] Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Using all level 5 we get 210 dps, just under 10k EHP and a cost of 47 mil isk according to EFT. [Moa, Blaster] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Medium Nosferatu II [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Hobgoblin II x3 This gives 410 dps, 25k EHp and a cost of around 24 mil isk, after insurance. So for twice the price, you're getting 51% of the DPS, and 39% of the EHP. This seems ok, but now lets look at the Eagle and Ferox: [Eagle, Blaster] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Medium Nosferatu II Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I 438 DPS and 58k EHP for a cool 143 mil isk. I'll continue in another post with the ferox..
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.09 10:46:00 - [94] [Ferox, Blaster] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Small Nosferatu II Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Hobgoblin II x5 550 dps, 67k ehp. When it goes pop, around 50 mil isk down the drain. This means the Eagle has 80% of the dps of a Ferox, and 86% of the EHP, for just under three times the cost. I propose a 5% resists bonus per level, bringing the Harpy to around 15k ehp. With the lower price, and better sig radius and speed relative to the Moa than the Eagle has relative to the Ferox, we can't expect to get similar DPS and EHP to a Moa, but a boost to the Harpy's tank would be balanced in the spirit of the ship's description.
Tozmeister Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2009.05.09 12:00:00 - [95] give them their 4th bonus +++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
Foolish Bob Caldari The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2009.05.09 12:10:00 - [96] I don't accept your comparison: HAC's and BC's are both anti-cruiser platforms, with an option to providing dps on other targets. A cruiser is not an anti-frig platform - that's the role of destroyers, inties and af (and ofc frigs), so whereas HAC's and BC's operating in a similar battlespace (if we can coin that term) should be equivalent, I would argue that there's no such requirement for af's wrt cruisers. In those terms then I think that any boost has to be made on its own merit for the role an af has - which is not to say that 5% resists on the caldari af wouldn't go amiss - indeed anything that makes them more worthwhile would be welcome. But we can't use cruisers as justification imo.
Laerise PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.09 13:21:00 - [97]
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.09 22:15:00 - [98] Originally by: Foolish Bob I don't accept your comparison: HAC's and BC's are both anti-cruiser platforms, with an option to providing dps on other targets. A cruiser is not an anti-frig platform - that's the role of destroyers, inties and af (and ofc frigs), so whereas HAC's and BC's operating in a similar battlespace (if we can coin that term) should be equivalent, I would argue that there's no such requirement for af's wrt cruisers. In those terms then I think that any boost has to be made on its own merit for the role an af has - which is not to say that 5% resists on the caldari af wouldn't go amiss - indeed anything that makes them more worthwhile would be welcome. But we can't use cruisers as justification imo. I fully understand what you're saying. It is very hard to discuss balance for AFs when there is nothing to really compare them against. In my mind the question is this: I have 100 mil isk to spend, should I spend it on 2 AFs or 4 cruisers? Take the example of a well setup and flown Rupture. You could take on any other cruiser frigate or AF and kill it. On the other hand, when you're flying an AF, you first of all can forget about taking on a decent drone boat. Then anytime you engage something, you're rolling the dice. If they start dropping ECM drones, or hit you with a neut or two, thats it. Game over. I accept this. No ship should be unbeatable in every circumstance. Far from it. But the range of situations where an AF can be used without getting laughed at and blown to pieces is quite limited. Because of this, I want them to shine in their niche role. Vagabond, Deimos, these ships are absolutely awesome at what they do, are they overpowered? No, they're T2 ships, thats how they should be. Why are AFs not? They're ok at their job. Butwhen you pay 40+ mil isk for a frigate hull, ok isn't really enough.
ian666 Lamb Federation Navy C0VEN	Posted - 2009.05.10 09:33:00 - [99]
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2009.05.10 10:29:00 - [100] Originally by: Wang Jing I fully understand what you're saying. It is very hard to discuss balance for AFs when there is nothing to really compare them against. In my mind the question is this: I have 100 mil isk to spend, should I spend it on 2 AFs or 4 cruisers? Take the example of a well setup and flown Rupture. You could take on any other cruiser frigate or AF and kill it. On the other hand, when you're flying an AF, you first of all can forget about taking on a decent drone boat. Then anytime you engage something, you're rolling the dice. If they start dropping ECM drones, or hit you with a neut or two, thats it. Game over. If you compare an AF to a cruiser ask yourself "which ships can I engage?" you'll be disappointed. With AFs the question is more "which ships will the AF allow me to avoid". In EVE both questions are important. ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn.

Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.10 11:28:00 - [101] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel If you compare an AF to a cruiser ask yourself "which ships can I engage?" you'll be disappointed. With AFs the question is more "which ships will the AF allow me to avoid". In EVE both questions are important. Well we've arrived at the reason I fly AFs almost exclusively. I have to confess to being an outlaw, and I fly along heavily contested FW pipes. In my Jag I can laugh at the blob camps (although flying my 400 plate Wolf is "exciting" at times). But on the subject of avoiding fights, AFs work best with AB and scram in lowsec. If things start to go wrong, when fighting, for example, a mwd + disruptor fitted cruiser, chances are you are not going to escape. The things are so fragile, there are so many circumstances in which you will get obliterated by something that costs a fraction of the price. Because of this I want them to be amazing when used in the right situation. A 4th bonus will give them a nice little boost without suddenly changing the roles they are able to perform.
Foolish Bob Caldari The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2009.05.12 12:41:00 - [102] huh. I think we're at the stage where we need to decide on what the accepted role of an af actually is. I don't do much solo work so I won't comment on that, but in a fleet setting, I use them as a) Heavy tackle - the ability to hold onto a target without dying long enough for dps to arrive b) Frigate superiority platform - killing frigs and destroyers at a disproportionate ratio to ship losses. especially when paired with interceptors, I really cannot stress enough how well they perform these roles - especially if you're dealing with smartbombing battleships - as is often the case for us. So the questions now are 1) What solo roles do they fill 2) Why are they lacking in fleet or solo roles (each ship)? 3) What bonus would you propose to solve this problem (each ship)? From there we can have solid options to evaluate.
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.12 15:49:00 - [103] Originally by: Foolish Bob a) Heavy tackle - the ability to hold onto a target without dying long enough for dps to arrive b) Frigate superiority platform - killing frigs and destroyers at a disproportionate ratio to ship losses. especially when paired with interceptors, I really cannot stress enough how well they perform these roles Agreed. Originally by: Foolish Bob So the questions now are 1) What solo roles do they fill 2) Why are they lacking in fleet or solo roles (each ship)? 3) What bonus would you propose to solve this problem (each ship)? From there we can have solid options to evaluate. AFs really are small counterparts to the HACs. Each individual ship may excel in a certain role, but the class as a whole is designed to provide ships capable of performing well in many cirucmstances where high performance is needed couple with agility and speed. Looking at the bonuses of the AFs and HACs, a lot of them are cleary designed to be used in a similar way. Harpy -> Eagle Ranged DPS Retribution -> Zealot Ranged DPS Vengeneance -> Sacriledge Heavy Tanker Ishkur-> Ishtar Drone bukkake Enyo-> Deimos Blaster Boat They individually have quite different characters, whilst at the same time being versatile enough to perform well in a variety of situations, for example in fleets, as you have mentioned. They also work very well in the role I use them in, which is solo or with another AF wingman, killing much larger targets. With an AB and a scram, they are able to speed/sig tank even when webbed, and take down much larger ships, whilst at the same time being fast enough with an AB to make the initial tackle, and nimble enough to evade gatecamps that would catch a cruiser or larger ship. So my point is this: AFs are able to, and should continue to be able to, perform well in a variety of roles, whilst still having distinct characters. Therefore, as with HACs, I'm against giving the whole class the same bonus that bolsters their use in a specific role, rather they should be given their bonus on a case by case bonus, in keeping with the general character of the ship. The problem with AFs in general is that they simply are not worth the ISK. They were initially given a 4th bonus, which was to resists, however when this was incorporated into the hull, as with other T2 ships, they did not receive a new 4th bonus. I feel like I'm starting to repeat myself here as I have given some examples of the bonus I would like to see before, but I'll quickly summarise my thoughts here: Harpy: Inherit the 5% bonus to resists that the Merlin gets, completeing the Merlin, Moa, Harpy, Eagle family of Caldari rail boats. Vengeance: Bring it into line with the Sacriledge and give it a rocket ROF bonus. Retribution: Not sure on this, a zealot style rof bonus may be overpowered... answers on the back of a postcard... Hawk: I would suggest a ROF bonus here, like the cerb, and also a boost to fittings so its possible to fit with T2 launchers plus tank and tackle without fittting mods. Ishkur: Probably a 5km per level drone control range bonus is suitable here, a drone damage bonus for example would make this already superb ship completely overpowered. Enyo: How about a falloff bonus, to match the incursus. both falloff and optimal bonus, this would become a very flexible ship. Wolf and Jaguar: 7.5% bonus to turret tracking. These two differ from others in that they're both used in similar roles i.e. with autocannons or artillery, and so I'm in favour of a bonus that is helpful in both roles. They still retain their characters with this; the Jag being the more agile shield tanker, and the Wolf slower sturdier armour tanke. While we're on the subject, its worth noting that a lot of people want the falloff/optimal bonuses to be switched.
Zostera Minmatar Honour Bound Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2009.05.13 11:26:00 - [104] Edited by: Zostera on 13/05/2009 11:26:52 Wang Jing is making some really solid points here that I think will provide a boost to the AF's of all races without destoying either game balance or ship roles. As a Minnie pilot I agree wholeheartedly with the proposed addition of the rifters tracking bonus and a swtich in the optimal/falloff bonuses. Atm I tend to fly a Jag fitted as "tough tackle" as someone mentioned above, which is great, fun, useful... just very dissapointing when I can't orbit at speed and hit for **** due to poor tracking. I wouldn't argue that The Jag or Wolf needs any dps boost other than the improved hit rate. Zos
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.13 14:04:00 - [105] Originally by: Zostera Edited by: Zostera on 13/05/2009 11:26:52 Wang Jing is making some really solid points here that I think will provide a boost to the AF's of all races without destoying either game balance or ship roles. As a Minnie pilot I agree wholeheartedly with the proposed addition of the rifters tracking bonus and a swtich in the optimal/falloff bonuses. Atm I tend to fly a Jag fitted as "tough tackle" as someone mentioned above, which is great, fun, useful... just very dissapointing when I can't orbit at speed and hit for **** due to poor tracking. I wouldn't argue that The Jag or Wolf needs any dps boost other than the improved hit rate. Zos Yep, my thoughts exactly. Even though they put out less dps than some of their counterparts, Minmatar ships should be able to use the flexibility of their weapon systems combined with their natural speed to compete. For example, when fighting an Enyo with a Wolf, you need to get out to 5 or 6 km where the falloff you gain with barrage ammo allows you to outdamage him. On the otherhand, a Harpy or Retribution will still cause you problems at this range, and so you should be able to get in tight and outtrack them. Unfortunately this simply does not work without a tracking bonus.
Glaceon	Posted - 2009.05.13 14:23:00 - [106] Edited by: Glaceon on 13/05/2009 14:24:48 I also want to mention that since assault ships are getting a nerf to agility this coming patch, giving them a boost is all the more essential.
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.13 14:35:00 - [107] Originally by: Glaceon Edited by: Glaceon on 13/05/2009 14:24:48 I also want to mention that since assault ships are getting a nerf to agility this coming patch, giving them a boost is all the more essential. Sigh, too right. They will struggle to get past camps with a proper tackler after the patch, and that is a huge nerf.
Glaceon	Posted - 2009.05.14 00:57:00 - [108] Originally by: Wang Jing Originally by: Glaceon Edited by: Glaceon on 13/05/2009 14:24:48 I also want to mention that since assault ships are getting a nerf to agility this coming patch, giving them a boost is all the more essential. Sigh, too right. They will struggle to get past camps with a proper tackler after the patch, and that is a huge nerf. Makes perfect sense though. I just finished training for assault ships yesterday so of course a sudden nerf was needed.
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.17 17:22:00 - [109] Originally by: Glaceon Originally by: Wang Jing Originally by: Glaceon Edited by: Glaceon on 13/05/2009 14:24:48 I also want to mention that since assault ships are getting a nerf to agility this coming patch, giving them a boost is all the more essential. Sigh, too right. They will struggle to get past camps with a proper tackler after the patch, and that is a huge nerf. Makes perfect sense though. I just finished training for assault ships yesterday so of course a sudden nerf was needed. Well I'm still happily flying around lowsec in assault frigs, whilst the agility decrease is noticable its still reasonably easy to get past most camps.
Foolish Bob Caldari The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2009.05.17 18:45:00 - [110] Been away from the forums for a while. Been neglecting an important debate. Originally by: Wang Jing AFs really are small counterparts to the HACs. Each individual ship may excel in a certain role, but the class as a whole is designed to provide ships capable of performing well in many cirucmstances where high performance is needed couple with agility and speed. This I can buy for sure, but I think it's important to keep in mind therefore, that as HAC's are to battlecruisers, so af must be to destroyers. Originally by: Wang Jing Harpy -> Eagle Ranged DPS Retribution -> Zealot Ranged DPS Vengeneance -> Sacriledge Heavy Tanker Ishkur-> Ishtar Drone bukkake Enyo-> Deimos Blaster Boat with presumably the following to finish the list Hawk -> Cerb Long Range Missile DPS Jaguar -> Vagabond -> fast close range dps Wolf -> Munin -> tanked close range dps Originally by: Wang Jing They individually have quite different characters, whilst at the same time being versatile enough to perform well in a variety of situations, for example in fleets, as you have mentioned. They also work very well in the role I use them in, which is solo or with another AF wingman, killing much larger targets. With an AB and a scram, they are able to speed/sig tank even when webbed, and take down much larger ships, whilst at the same time being fast enough with an AB to make the initial tackle, and nimble enough to evade gatecamps that would catch a cruiser or larger ship. 100% agreed Originally by: Wang Jing Harpy: Inherit the 5% bonus to resists that the Merlin gets, completeing the Merlin, Moa, Harpy, Eagle family of Caldari rail boats. Hawk: I would suggest a ROF bonus here, like the cerb, and also a boost to fittings so its possible to fit with T2 launchers plus tank and tackle without fittting mods. supported - caldari af are a little broken. Originally by: Wang Jing Vengeance: Bring it into line with the Sacriledge and give it a rocket ROF bonus. My concern with this is that CCP are supposed to be de-nerfing rockets, and having good damage AND epic tank rather than just ok damage and epic tank makes me nervous. Originally by: Wang Jing Retribution: Not sure on this, a zealot style rof bonus may be overpowered... answers on the back of a postcard... A 300dps retribution. drools I think that this would certainly be too much. A speed/agility boost though could hit the spot quite nicely, but then why would you fly a Jaguar? Originally by: Wang Jing Ishkur: Probably a 5km per level drone control range bonus is suitable here, a drone damage bonus for example would make this already superb ship completely overpowered. This wouldn't work for me - there's no point in having a drone control range that exceeds the targetting range of the ship (though of course you could well fit sensor boosters, but it's a tough fit to get right I think) Originally by: Wang Jing Enyo: How about a falloff bonus, to match the incursus. both falloff and optimal bonus, this would become a very flexible ship. I'd actually plump for a resist boost here. Most of the feedback I get is that when choosing twixt the two ships, you can have the enyo, or the enyo with drones, and who'd pick the enyo in those circumstances? In this way it becomes a distinct choice. Originally by: Wang Jing Wolf and Jaguar: cut so I get some chars The point for me about not having the tracking bonus on the Wolf/Jag is to do with DPS reduction. This is also why these ships operate in falloff - having that much dps without spending a drop of cap makes for a very powerful ship indeed. I've not really logged enough time in these ships though to judge what else would fit - perhaps a 5% boost to velocity on the Jag and a rep bonus or something for the wolf. More postcards there please.

Tsubutai	Posted - 2009.05.18 10:10:00 - [111] .
HavocWind	Posted - 2009.05.18 12:19:00 - [112] I strongly support this idea.
Icarus Starkiller Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.05.18 13:10:00 - [113] Originally by: Wang Jing Wolf and Jaguar While at it, flip the range bonuses between the two... they're completely out of whack with all of the other bonuses on each of the hulls. - Battleclinic's sig wizard doesn't work. :( Life is pain...anyone who says differently is
Lord DevilHanzo The Crane Technique	Posted - 2009.05.18 13:34:00 - [114]
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.18 13:37:00 - [115] Thanks for the reply Foolish! I'll try and address the contentious points. Firstly, with regards to the HAC comparison, I deliberately excluded the minmatar ships. The Jag definitly has Vaga like characteristics, but the Vaga is built around fighting with barrage outside of web and scram range; even with small autocannons, a falloff bonus and falloff rigs, you'd need to be just outside overheated web range to be getting more dps than with artillery, with a very high risk of messing up and getting killed. But then on the otherhand, the Muinin pretty much always used with arty from what I've seen, which the Wolf isn't. Switching the falloff and optimal bonus would certainly help, but with the difference between small and medium projectiles the AFs and HACs just can't function in the same way. So, as to the tracking bonus; the Wolf is out dps'd by every one of the "gank" style AFs (Enyo, Retribution, Harpy), and even the Ishkur, which is a tackle AF. The Jaguar fairs a little better, but only because 2 of the tackle AFs are lolrockets. The point of minmatar ships is to use their speed and flexible weapons to outfight the enemy where they are weakest. The ability to do this is a fair trade off for less dps, although it requires more thoughtful piloting. You cannot always try to sit in falloff. Do this against a blaster harpy, a retribution or an enyo who decides to load long rage ammo and you're not going to do well. Against these you need to get in up close and use superior tracking to win. Without a tracking bonus, some of these fights are unwinnable. Problems are also caused in situtaions where the enemies tracking is borderline enough to hit you, for example an autorupture. You need to be as close as possible, going as fast as possible; having to slow down so your guns can hit is just silly. Rocket ships: Yes it does look like rockets will be getting balanced. This is great. If CCP are sensible (we can only hope) they'll also look at rocket using ships at the same time. Perfect solution: balance rockets so that rocket using AFs will be doing around maybe 150 dps with a second damage bonus, plus the explosion velocities and radius sorted out so they can actually hit frigate sized targets ok. Given that they are both "tackle" syle AFs, and can hit out to 6km+, this seems reasonable to me, although I'm not a big rocket user so am happy to be told i'm wrong here. Retribution: 300 dps sounds silly, but then a coercer with 3 heatsinks gets well over 300. I hear a lot of talk about lasers being overpowered, and I can see why when I look at the numbers here. Being able to do a lot of dps but with significantly worse tracking (and no tackle ) is a fair trade, given the lack of speed and agility of a Ret, but yeah I'm still unsure here but I don't think I would have a problem with a 300 dps retribution if it was unable to hit a Jag or whatever in a tight orbit (and I was able to hit it ). Iskur and Enyo: There is definitly not enough to distinguish these at the moment. Dare I say it, the Ishkur overpowered. It really shouldn't be doing the same DPS as a Wolf. I would think maybe 200 dps (down from 220+ atm)would be appropriate. As the Ishkur is the "tackle" AF, I would have thought it should be getting the tanking bonus. A resist bonus could suit if the DPS was gimped a bit. Or of course the armour rep bonus that CCP loves for Gallente ships. That leaves us with some kind of gank bonus for the Enyo. Just a thought, but how about a reduction to both MWD and AB cap use, similar to other blaster boats but also helping out with the AB scram fit. I really am struggling with the Enyo .
Boomninja	Posted - 2009.05.19 05:52:00 - [116] <3
Rhakriel Mesolian Purify	Posted - 2009.05.19 10:08:00 - [117] AFs being the first t2 ship i ever trained up for, i am still disappointed in their effectiveness after about 2 years of experimenting with setups and tactics. even now that i've had plenty of time to train up the supplemental skills to help out this is the case. i agree on many suggestions brought up here, specifically tracking bonus addition to jag/wolf. also, the idea of a more clearly defined role for each AF with regards to bonuses would be helpful, as has been brought up by previous postings. thanks for bringing this up in a thread. this isn't a section of the forums i spend much time in, but i'm glad i did today.
arbiter reborn	Posted - 2009.05.19 10:12:00 - [118] sighned
Foolish Bob The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2009.05.20 11:16:00 - [119] I'm not sure about the enyo either - and I'd even say that 180 should be the max dps for the ishkur, but I'm more or less sold on the other things, so supported
Opertone Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.05.20 11:48:00 - [120] Yes, the assault frigates need 4th bonus Wolf and Jaguar are very best of them, Ishkur is oustanding. Harpy and Hawk, quite unreasonable to fly with long range setup. Retribution and vengeance - very nice ships for running plexes, but not much more.

M Blanc	Posted - 2009.05.21 05:41:00 - [121] Poasting because I support the fourth bonus.
Ender Vis State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.21 13:37:00 - [122] I support this. Mostly because while being able to fly an AF I feel no need to do so. They need some help. Shame. Give 'em some love aye? Keep EVE civilised, say no to carebarianism.
Eofina DEATH'S LEGION	Posted - 2009.05.21 14:37:00 - [123] Signed. Show my AF's some love! "Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." ~ Dark Helmet
Avion 7th CBC Interstellar Mostly AFK	Posted - 2009.05.21 19:55:00 - [124] Yup, they need some love.
Svetlana Topplervich Minmatar	Posted - 2009.05.22 01:42:00 - [125] Signed
AtheistOfDoom Amarr The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.05.22 05:44:00 - [126] The last version of this idea was terrible. but at least this one has good points, I'd support the vengeance getting the resists bonus from amarr frigate and it getting a second rocket damage/RoF bonus from AF skill. And then, he killed the dog...
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.22 09:22:00 - [127] Originally by: AtheistOfDoom The last version of this idea was terrible. but at least this one has good points, I'd support the vengeance getting the resists bonus from amarr frigate and it getting a second rocket damage/RoF bonus from AF skill. Actually the Veng already gets the resists bonus, giving it that and the rocket damage bonus would bring it to 5
Astria Tiphareth 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.05.22 10:13:00 - [128] Supported in principle. The precise details as ever will get argued and debated hotly and then CCP will do something weird anyway Some great points raised by Wang Jing and Foolish Bob. It at least highlights that some AFs are in need of work; others need to be delayed until rockets get fixed; others still are... well just great already and thus need kid gloves. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.22 11:47:00 - [129] Originally by: Astria Tiphareth ...and then CCP will do something weird anyway
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.25 10:50:00 - [130] Just a little bump...

Erick Voliffe State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.05.25 15:29:00 - [131] Make it happen ccp. Do something right for a change instead of nerfing things.
Garan Tormas	Posted - 2009.05.25 22:08:00 - [132] Agreed. It's an egregious oversight, and the poor little AFs deserve more love
Solo Player	Posted - 2009.05.25 22:20:00 - [133] What's built is built - if you want better assault frigs, let them introduce new, improved assault frigs (mk II) that are slightly more expensive to produce.
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.26 00:14:00 - [134] Originally by: Solo Player What's built is built - if you want better assault frigs, let them introduce new, improved assault frigs (mk II) that are slightly more expensive to produce. I get the feeling i'm being trolled, but just in case... Don't you ever read patch notes? Or look in the game development forum? Ships get tweaked in almost every patch. Recent examples being the Naglfar, Falcon and Rook, and Stealth Bombers. Stealth Bombers in particular were quite drastically changed. The problem with the current AFs is that they are very expensive for a frigate hull yet don't receive the 4 bonuses that all other T2 ships get. Making an even more expensive version is a terrible solution, and there is no precedent for that kind of approach to balancing.
Flaming Lemming Puppeteer Press	Posted - 2009.05.26 00:53:00 - [135] supported, concept is good, but the devil is in the details. Looks like this is appropriate again...
Clementina Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.05.26 02:36:00 - [136] I would like to lend support for this topic. The Assault Frigates need their rightful forth bonus. Granted I don't know what it would be (I've only flown the Enyo and Ishkur during my carrer, and the Ishkur recently) I would try like a Combat Utility and ECM Drone bonus for the Ishkur; But even that might be too much.
Odhinn Vinlandii V I R I I Cult of War	Posted - 2009.05.26 03:20:00 - [137]
Epegi Givo Moral Equivalent Of War	Posted - 2009.05.26 05:45:00 - [138] Yeah, they are REALLY underpowered.
Corey Feldman	Posted - 2009.05.26 14:17:00 - [139]
Solo Player	Posted - 2009.05.26 23:28:00 - [140] Originally by: Wang Jing I get the feeling i'm being trolled, but just in case... Don't you ever read patch notes? Or look in the game development forum? Ships get tweaked in almost every patch. Making an even more expensive version is a terrible solution, and there is no precedent for that kind of approach to balancing. Not trolling you, just stating my opinion out of principle. Things in a persistent world should not be changed unless absolutely necessary. A poorly designed ship could easily be succeeded by a new, improved version whose advantages are actually worth the slightly highere price. Or it could be succeeded by a new, much cheaper version profiting from a significant production shortcut, getting things in balance as well. Mind, your solution is clearly simpler and more conventional, but I just don't think it is the best way to introduce change into a virtual world.

Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.27 12:19:00 - [141] Originally by: Solo Player Originally by: Wang Jing I get the feeling i'm being trolled, but just in case... Don't you ever read patch notes? Or look in the game development forum? Ships get tweaked in almost every patch. Making an even more expensive version is a terrible solution, and there is no precedent for that kind of approach to balancing. Not trolling you, just stating my opinion out of principle. Things in a persistent world should not be changed unless absolutely necessary. A poorly designed ship could easily be succeeded by a new, improved version whose advantages are actually worth the slightly highere price. Or it could be succeeded by a new, much cheaper version profiting from a significant production shortcut, getting things in balance as well. Mind, your solution is clearly simpler and more conventional, but I just don't think it is the best way to introduce change into a virtual world. I see you point, however there is not really any point arguing it as CCP have been changing things this way ever since the game started. The fact of the matter is in MMOs it becomes quickly apparent where there is an imbalance, and whilst persistance would be nice, you can't let it get in the way of fixing problems. So many fads have come and gone: -every ship having a multispectral ecm in the mids -> ecm nerfed except on dedicated ecm boats -being able to fit cruise missiles into kestrels -> nerfed -being able to run multiple MWDs -> nerfed -interceptors being able to fly at 30km/s -> nerfed You see my point? There has never been persistance in EvE. Trying to do so now is completely pointless. There will always be things that are overpowered and underpowered. Ignoring them would eventually kill the game.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2009.05.27 16:17:00 - [142]
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.05.30 09:33:00 - [143] Bump for the new CSM!
Nouva MacGyver Caldari MacGyver Communications	Posted - 2009.05.30 11:07:00 - [144] Just posting to show my support for this thread. So far I've had limited piloting time in my Vengeance. Not yet able to give my full educated support for or against the issue at hand because there's a lot of good arguments/discussion going back and forth in this thread. Definitely worth a bookmark and looking forward to more views from experienced AF pilots out there. Regards.
Alexis Cato	Posted - 2009.05.30 11:13:00 - [145]
Hy Jack	Posted - 2009.05.30 11:38:00 - [146] +1
Merw The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.05.30 19:08:00 - [147] support because right now theres no point in getting into an enyo if you can fly a ranis which outclasses it in everything except for a nonspeed tank.
RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.05.30 22:38:00 - [148] Originally by: CCP Mitnal I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting. Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
Alpha Rose	Posted - 2009.05.30 23:21:00 - [149]
Lumy Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.05.31 21:13:00 - [150] Hawk: 5% missile damage Harpy: 5% shield resistance Ishkur: 5% drone tracking or 5% drone MWD speed? Honestly, I have no idea. Enyo: 5% light hybrid damage Wolf: 7.5% light projectile tracking Jaguar: 7.5% light projectile tracking Vengeance: move 5% armor resist to frigate bonus and add 5% rocket damage to AF Retribution: 5% light laser damage Bottom notes: 1. It would be more natural to give ships ROF bonus instead of 2nd damage bonus, but this could be bad for server considering small guns have already high ROF. 2. Swap falloff and optimal for minmatar ships. Jaguar is natural AC boat and Wolf is more suited for sniping. 3. 2nd damage bonus for Enyo and Retribution could be overpowered? I'm not sure. Considering Taranis has 3 guns and dual damage bonus and Crusader has already 4 guns. Also all HACs have ROF and damage bonuses with equal amount of hardpoints. Obvious exceptions are Eagle with double sniper bonus and Ishtar droneboat. 4. Why is Jaguar the only ship with 3 gun hardpoints? Except Enyo of course, but full flight of light drones makes up to it. Joomla! in EVE - IGB compatible CMS.

Kaito Haakkainen	Posted - 2009.06.01 00:35:00 - [151]
Pliauga	Posted - 2009.06.02 08:44:00 - [152] Oh yes, sweet fr!ckn yes. ------- "Skynet" is my internet provider, should I be worried?
Dracoknight The Directorate Underworld Excavators	Posted - 2009.06.02 09:23:00 - [153] want bonus! ____________________ I wish my Thorax could use missiles...
Holy Lowlander Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.06.02 11:12:00 - [154] _______________
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.06.02 14:24:00 - [155] Not supported (from someone who's favorite ship is an AF). AFs are already plenty powerful for a t2 frigate hull- that one smart AF pilot alone can kill most PVP fit (passive/plated) battleships solo is a clear indication of this. I'm not going to run around waving my arms and screaming "NERF AFS ONGZZZ"- but honestly? They're small enough barely anything can hit them, when fit right can tank insanely well for a frigate, and put out enough DPS to have a chance against active tanked ships- quit QQing because your setup sucks :)
Ana Vyr	Posted - 2009.06.02 15:13:00 - [156] Supported.
Ulstan	Posted - 2009.06.02 17:15:00 - [157] Definitely supported. AF's definitely need their missing 4th bonus. Some AF's just plain suck even compared to other AF's. All AF's that use rockets (like the vengeance) are gimped because rockets suck. The Hawk, in addition, sucks even beyond that, doing less damage than the T1 variant, the Kestrel, when using rockets or when using light missiles.
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.06.03 09:37:00 - [158] Originally by: Tortugan Not supported (from someone who's favorite ship is an AF). AFs are already plenty powerful for a t2 frigate hull- that one smart AF pilot alone can kill most PVP fit (passive/plated) battleships solo is a clear indication of this. I'm not going to run around waving my arms and screaming "NERF AFS ONGZZZ"- but honestly? They're small enough barely anything can hit them, when fit right can tank insanely well for a frigate, and put out enough DPS to have a chance against active tanked ships- quit QQing because your setup sucks :) A smart pilot can kill almost anything if its fitted in a way that makes it susceptible. You could kill a passive tanked BS in a rifter. Does't mean that rifter is worth 20 mil isk. I'm guessing you're an Ishkur pilot. Try flying a Vengeance or a Hawk and then tell me they're fine. The point is the role of an AF is a niche one; the circumstances in which they can be used limited. They can fill that role, yes, but they're not particularly spectacular at it. All other T2 combat ships get 4 bonuses, AFs deserve a 4th bonus so they can be a little bit better at what they do, and give the same value for money as other T2 ships.
Amasai	Posted - 2009.06.03 12:22:00 - [159] 2 thumbs up, assualt ship damage or damage related bonus additions would be great
Alekseyev Karrde Noir.	Posted - 2009.06.03 20:25:00 - [160] Edited by: Alekseyev Karrde on 03/06/2009 20:30:12 Make the bonuses similar to their HAC big brothers (or otherwise diverse between races/classes) but watered down. Enyo: 5% armor repair amount Ishkur: 5% drone damage (or 5% drone speed, or some kind of bandwidth bonus would be interesting) Retribution: 5% small laser rof Vengeance: 5% rocket rof (or 5% armor HP) Harpy: Tough one to do in this circumstance, but i think 5% resist would be appropriate given it needs to put alot of mids into its sniper role. Scan Res/Lock Range bonus would also work here. Hawk: 5% rof Wolf: 5% rof or 5% speed Jaguar: 5% tracking or 5% rof EDIT: to be clear, i think AF's have come a long way. But they still arnt quite there. The "4th bonus" was a joke; everyone that flys them knows they should have had those resistances base from day 1. Give them the T2 bonus they are supposed to get for being a t2 ship and they will be spot on ships with a solid role and accurate cost. --- Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam

Adarek Rhendyl	Posted - 2009.06.05 07:51:00 - [161]
Kayvonna 10045th Logistics Battalion Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.06.05 09:32:00 - [162]
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.06.06 08:33:00 - [163] Edited by: Wang Jing on 06/06/2009 08:33:00 Thanks for all the support so far! It would be nice to hear from the new CSM members though
HavocWind	Posted - 2009.06.06 21:22:00 - [164] Originally by: Lumy Hawk: 5% missile damage Harpy: 5% shield resistance Ishkur: 5% drone tracking or 5% drone MWD speed? Honestly, I have no idea. Enyo: 5% light hybrid damage Wolf: 7.5% light projectile tracking Jaguar: 7.5% light projectile tracking Vengeance: move 5% armor resist to frigate bonus and add 5% rocket damage to AF Retribution: 5% light laser damage Bottom notes: 1. It would be more natural to give ships ROF bonus instead of 2nd damage bonus, but this could be bad for server considering small guns have already high ROF. 2. Swap falloff and optimal for minmatar ships. Jaguar is natural AC boat and Wolf is more suited for sniping. 3. 2nd damage bonus for Enyo and Retribution could be overpowered? I'm not sure. Considering Taranis has 3 guns and dual damage bonus and Crusader has already 4 guns. Also all HACs have ROF and damage bonuses with equal amount of hardpoints. Obvious exceptions are Eagle with double sniper bonus and Ishtar droneboat. 4. Why is Jaguar the only ship with 3 gun hardpoints? Except Enyo of course, but full flight of light drones makes up to it. Everything here. Though rather then second dmg bonus should really give RoF as stated.
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.06.06 21:28:00 - [165] Originally by: HavocWind Originally by: Lumy Hawk: 5% missile damage Harpy: 5% shield resistance Ishkur: 5% drone tracking or 5% drone MWD speed? Honestly, I have no idea. Enyo: 5% light hybrid damage Wolf: 7.5% light projectile tracking Jaguar: 7.5% light projectile tracking Vengeance: move 5% armor resist to frigate bonus and add 5% rocket damage to AF Retribution: 5% light laser damage Bottom notes: 1. It would be more natural to give ships ROF bonus instead of 2nd damage bonus, but this could be bad for server considering small guns have already high ROF. 2. Swap falloff and optimal for minmatar ships. Jaguar is natural AC boat and Wolf is more suited for sniping. 3. 2nd damage bonus for Enyo and Retribution could be overpowered? I'm not sure. Considering Taranis has 3 guns and dual damage bonus and Crusader has already 4 guns. Also all HACs have ROF and damage bonuses with equal amount of hardpoints. Obvious exceptions are Eagle with double sniper bonus and Ishtar droneboat. 4. Why is Jaguar the only ship with 3 gun hardpoints? Except Enyo of course, but full flight of light drones makes up to it. Everything here. Though rather then second dmg bonus should really give RoF as stated. Cool. I'd be very happy if those were the bonuses chosen.
Squischie	Posted - 2009.06.07 04:31:00 - [166] /signed
Bunyip Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.06.07 05:32:00 - [167] Being a droneboat pilot myself, I think the Ishkur should get the same bonus the Vexor, Myrm, Domi, Ishtar, etc get - 10% bonus to drone damage and HP per level. This makes it in the same line as it's cousins, and isn't over-powered, since it can only field a maximum of 5 light drones. I'd put the optimal range bonus with the Gallente Frigate skill, and move this bonus to the Assault Ships skill. "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table.
Phantom Slave JUDGE DREAD Inc.	Posted - 2009.06.07 06:15:00 - [168] Support given. I love my Vengeance but it's a bit weak in the DPS side of things.
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.06.07 10:37:00 - [169] Originally by: Bunyip Being a droneboat pilot myself, I think the Ishkur should get the same bonus the Vexor, Myrm, Domi, Ishtar, etc get - 10% bonus to drone damage and HP per level. This makes it in the same line as it's cousins, and isn't over-powered, since it can only field a maximum of 5 light drones. I'd put the optimal range bonus with the Gallente Frigate skill, and move this bonus to the Assault Ships skill. A typical blaster Iskur fit - with no magstabs - would be pushing 280 dps with level 5 skills and the drone damage bonus you suggest. Thats ridiculous. A blaster Enyo with ions, 1 magstab and damage rigs will only do 269 with max skills. You see the problem. The Ishkur is already overpowered. It needs a dps nerf if anything.
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.06.07 10:41:00 - [170] Originally by: Wang Jing Originally by: Tortugan Not supported (from someone who's favorite ship is an AF). AFs are already plenty powerful for a t2 frigate hull- that one smart AF pilot alone can kill most PVP fit (passive/plated) battleships solo is a clear indication of this. I'm not going to run around waving my arms and screaming "NERF AFS ONGZZZ"- but honestly? They're small enough barely anything can hit them, when fit right can tank insanely well for a frigate, and put out enough DPS to have a chance against active tanked ships- quit QQing because your setup sucks :) A smart pilot can kill almost anything if its fitted in a way that makes it susceptible. You could kill a passive tanked BS in a rifter. Does't mean that rifter is worth 20 mil isk. I'm guessing you're an Ishkur pilot. Try flying a Vengeance or a Hawk and then tell me they're fine. The point is the role of an AF is a niche one; the circumstances in which they can be used limited. They can fill that role, yes, but they're not particularly spectacular at it. All other T2 combat ships get 4 bonuses, AFs deserve a 4th bonus so they can be a little bit better at what they do, and give the same value for money as other T2 ships. A rocket hawk will tear apart any ishkur that can't stay at range, and a vengeance will tank it until backup arrives. Yes, I am an ishkur pilot, myself- as I currently fly solely Gallente, however, I know plenty of AF pilots of other races, who feel the way I do. I've seen harpies take on dominixes- in fact, I've tested a friend's harpy on my domi- a ship perfectly equipped to kill afs (I had a full rack of smal/med neuts, stasis webs, and nearly skill-maxed hob IIs)- and yet he /still/ managed to take a chunk out of my armor buffer before he called me off. AFs have very specific roles, as do most T2 ships. Some are better at tanking, others are better at tackling, others are better at putting out solid DPS. I don't think it would be the end of the world if they got a buff, but I really don't think it's necessary.

Jigoku Shiya	Posted - 2009.06.07 11:29:00 - [171] Supported.
Maxsim Goratiev Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate Underworld Excavators	Posted - 2009.06.07 17:03:00 - [172] Quote: AFs have very specific roles, as do most T2 ships. Some are better at tanking, others are better at tackling, others are better at putting out solid DPS. I don't think it would be the end of the world if they got a buff, but I really don't think it's necessary. they are powerfull ships as it is. I doubt they need a beef. Hm...
Li Jingmao	Posted - 2009.06.08 06:39:00 - [173] Supported
tobi ath Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.06.08 07:20:00 - [174] Supported. Frigates are one of the most fun ship classes to fly, and I thoroughly enjoy my time in AF so far. However, they are certainly lacking when compared to the other T2 ships. I've only ever really flown Gallente and Amarr, so I will comment on my ideas for these two race's ships. Enyo: bump the optimal range bonus up to frigate and add a 5% bonus to armor repair amount per AF level. Ishkur: again, bump optimal range bonus up to frigate and add a 5% drone mwd speed bonus Retribution: 5% bonus to small energy turret rate of fire in the frigate bonuses. Vengeance: 5% bonus to launcher rate of fire in the frigate bonuses.
perix Sane Industries Inc. Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.06.08 08:06:00 - [175] +1
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.06.09 09:08:00 - [176] Still waiting for the CSM. Come on guys!
holyone Destructive Influence KenZoku	Posted - 2009.06.09 13:29:00 - [177] Supported. Assault Ships seem a little over-looked as it is, and more as a skill you have to get to 4 to be able to fly Heavy Assault Ships. Give 'em some luv!
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.06.10 09:43:00 - [178] Edited by: Tortugan on 10/06/2009 09:47:25 Dear god. Frigates are fun as hell to fly, because they're fast, exhilarating, and maneuverable. For those exact reasons (excluding exhilaration :P) they're already plenty powerful. I strongly believe that those of you who are asking for an AF buff are people who are not yet accustomed to flying frigate-class ships. I used to suck miserably at flying ishkurs- I fit them very similarly to how I do today, but I just didn't know how to use them properly- I think my record was losing one within 30 minutes of fitting it >.> It takes quite a bit of practice to master flying them, as they're small, and squishy if you make the wrong move- but to someone who knows what they're doing, AFs are nearly indestructible. Really- stop complaining that your Vengeance isn't putting out as much DPS as a Zealot- with the right setup, head to head, you'd win. This is coming from someone who's absolute favorite ship class is the assault frigate- they do not need a boost. Any of the proposed changes would make the class ridiculously overpowered. http://intan.evekb.co.uk/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=64088&view=ships_weapons 78 kills in an AF to 3 losses (two of which were instapopped by POSes XD)... yeah- I think we need a boost. EDIT: Why not spend some time considering how we could effectively buff the EAF class? I'd wager that 50% of the people reading this thread don't even know what a Keres is.
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.06.10 14:20:00 - [179] Originally by: Tortugan Edited by: Tortugan on 10/06/2009 09:47:25 Dear god. Frigates are fun as hell to fly, because they're fast, exhilarating, and maneuverable. For those exact reasons (excluding exhilaration :P) they're already plenty powerful. I strongly believe that those of you who are asking for an AF buff are people who are not yet accustomed to flying frigate-class ships. I used to suck miserably at flying ishkurs- I fit them very similarly to how I do today, but I just didn't know how to use them properly- I think my record was losing one within 30 minutes of fitting it >.> It takes quite a bit of practice to master flying them, as they're small, and squishy if you make the wrong move- but to someone who knows what they're doing, AFs are nearly indestructible. Really- stop complaining that your Vengeance isn't putting out as much DPS as a Zealot- with the right setup, head to head, you'd win. This is coming from someone who's absolute favorite ship class is the assault frigate- they do not need a boost. Any of the proposed changes would make the class ridiculously overpowered. http://intan.evekb.co.uk/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=64088&view=ships_weapons 78 kills in an AF to 3 losses (two of which were instapopped by POSes XD)... yeah- I think we need a boost. EDIT: Why not spend some time considering how we could effectively buff the EAF class? I'd wager that 50% of the people reading this thread don't even know what a Keres is. Another Ishkur pilot claiming AFs are fine. Why am I not surprised? Ishkur is by far the best AF. The others would be on par with the Ishkur after getting a 4th bonus. Imagine an Ishkur with just the drones for dps. Then you'll have about the same dps as a Vengenace or Hawk. Even without the drone bay, blasters and 1 magstab will do the same dps as a Jaguar! In fact an Ishkur does a lot more dps then a Wolf, whilst having full tackle. If you'd have read the thread you'd see that most people here feel the ishkur is overpowered. Your claim that it is just fine is ok though, because the aim is for all AFs to be at that level.
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.06.10 20:07:00 - [180] Originally by: Wang Jing Originally by: Tortugan Edited by: Tortugan on 10/06/2009 09:47:25 Dear god. Frigates are fun as hell to fly, because they're fast, exhilarating, and maneuverable. For those exact reasons (excluding exhilaration :P) they're already plenty powerful. I strongly believe that those of you who are asking for an AF buff are people who are not yet accustomed to flying frigate-class ships. I used to suck miserably at flying ishkurs- I fit them very similarly to how I do today, but I just didn't know how to use them properly- I think my record was losing one within 30 minutes of fitting it >.> It takes quite a bit of practice to master flying them, as they're small, and squishy if you make the wrong move- but to someone who knows what they're doing, AFs are nearly indestructible. Really- stop complaining that your Vengeance isn't putting out as much DPS as a Zealot- with the right setup, head to head, you'd win. This is coming from someone who's absolute favorite ship class is the assault frigate- they do not need a boost. Any of the proposed changes would make the class ridiculously overpowered. http://intan.evekb.co.uk/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=64088&view=ships_weapons 78 kills in an AF to 3 losses (two of which were instapopped by POSes XD)... yeah- I think we need a boost. EDIT: Why not spend some time considering how we could effectively buff the EAF class? I'd wager that 50% of the people reading this thread don't even know what a Keres is. Another Ishkur pilot claiming AFs are fine. Why am I not surprised? Ishkur is by far the best AF. The others would be on par with the Ishkur after getting a 4th bonus. Imagine an Ishkur with just the drones for dps. Then you'll have about the same dps as a Vengenace or Hawk. Even without the drone bay, blasters and 1 magstab will do the same dps as a Jaguar! In fact an Ishkur does a lot more dps then a Wolf, whilst having full tackle. If you'd have read the thread you'd see that most people here feel the ishkur is overpowered. Your claim that it is just fine is ok though, because the aim is for all AFs to be at that level. ...And if you'd have read this thread, you'd have heard my counter-argument: Retribution: Adds great DPS to frig gangs with an insane tank Vengeance: Tackles fine, and tanks almost as well as the Retri Jaguar: Puts out ridiculous DPS, and has the great advantage of speed over other AFs (in addition to a solid buffer tank) Wolf: DPS similar to Jag, but slower, better active tank Ishkur: Can be fit as either close-range for crazy DPS with a small tank, or long range for sustained tackling with drones on your prey Enyo: Makes a great tackler, as it has a ridiculous tank for an AF, and with scan res rigs, targets as fast as interceptors Harpy: Blarpies put out- fill the highs with blasters and one nos, and even neuted you'll be able to permarun a tank that can withstand a flight of bonused hobgoblin IIs Hawk: Probably the best anti-AF platform- hop rockets on one and maybe a nanofiber internal structure to help stay in range, and watch frigs get WTFpwned I'm honestly tempted to cross-train into other AFs just so I can show you first hand evidence that they don't need a buff- but until then: Loki Farseer - Caldari AF pilot with 29 kills in AFs to 3 losses Brigita Grohman - Even more ridiculous #s of kills to loses in a Amarr AFs Danny X - 25 kills in an AF to 0 losses And again: Tortugan - 78 : 3 Quit complaining.

Grarr Dexx Corp 1 Allstars	Posted - 2009.06.10 23:02:00 - [181] The only thing my Vengeance assaults is my will to actually fly the ship. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Laminar Septimar German Kings Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.06.15 22:34:00 - [182] Thumbs up! Add some Webber Range or even Taget painting Bonus!
Moloch Baal	Posted - 2009.06.17 13:19:00 - [183]
Biytor	Posted - 2009.06.17 22:36:00 - [184] Edited by: Biytor on 17/06/2009 22:36:00 Going to have to agree with this one. No point in having a T2 frig when the T1 version is better. Give the T2's a 4th bonus.
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.06.18 07:46:00 - [185] Originally by: Biytor Edited by: Biytor on 17/06/2009 22:36:00 Going to have to agree with this one. No point in having a T2 frig when the T1 version is better. Give the T2's a 4th bonus. Hah. Hahah. Wow. If you're AF is losing to T1 frigs, you're doing it wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong. ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard
Lord Cath	Posted - 2009.06.18 09:38:00 - [186] Originally by: Tortugan Originally by: Biytor Edited by: Biytor on 17/06/2009 22:36:00 Going to have to agree with this one. No point in having a T2 frig when the T1 version is better. Give the T2's a 4th bonus. Hah. Hahah. Wow. If you're AF is losing to T1 frigs, you're doing it wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong. you didnt read any of the posts in this thread now did you
Thutmose I	Posted - 2009.06.19 00:04:00 - [187] i would also like to see some improvements to the AFs especially the Hawk
Xydros	Posted - 2009.06.19 00:43:00 - [188] I think that AFs are almost there and while deadly in the hands of a master (as any ship is). Getting a 4th bonus would help... but I think it should be a role bonus rather than a ship bonus itself.
Trinity Nova	Posted - 2009.06.19 02:38:00 - [189] +1 What Wang Jing said.
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.19 10:43:00 - [190]

Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.06.22 07:36:00 - [191] Quote: you didnt read any of the posts in this thread now did you In fact, I did. Did you? Quote: AFs have very specific roles, as do most T2 ships. Some are better at tanking, others are better at tackling, others are better at putting out solid DPS. I don't think it would be the end of the world if they got a buff, but I really don't think it's necessary. ^ Meaning, hell yes- it's possible to put out more DPS in a Kestrel than a Hawk, but does that mean that make a Kestrel a better ship? Honestly- LTFF (Learn To F***ing Fly) ships before whining for a buff. Yes, AFs are squishy and not easy ships to fly- but they're FRIGATES. The fact that I feel wholly comfortable engaging most T2 cruisers in my AF is a clear sign that if anything, AFs need a nerf- but quite frankly, they're fine where they are now. AFs take specialization to fly, and practice to fly well. Learn to choose your engagements, and take full advantage of your size and your tank. If you're getting popped too quick, it's because you're allowing yourself to be tracked- medium guns and larger should never hit you if you're orbiting at close range, and small drones can be killed, tanked, or outrun. If your target is tanking you, go after something smaller, and quit whining that your T2 Frigate can't kill a mission fit Battlecruiser. Honestly- you wonder why Eve has so many balance issues? It's because people like those supporting this thread cba to learn from their mistakes, and be creative- they'd rather just complain and blame CCP. Assault Frigs are fine. If you can't fly them well, that's your own damn problem.
K1RTH G3RS3N Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.	Posted - 2009.06.23 01:01:00 - [192] indeed
K'aos MegaTraveller	Posted - 2009.06.23 01:02:00 - [193] Would be awesome to see this by the next patch.
Trinity Nova	Posted - 2009.06.23 03:32:00 - [194] Originally by: Tortugan Quote: Honestly- you wonder why Eve has so many balance issues? It's because people like those supporting this thread cba to learn from their mistakes, and be creative- they'd rather just complain and blame CCP. Assault Frigs are fine. If you can't fly them well, that's your own damn problem. Get with the program nubbin, you're talking out of your buttocks.
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.06.23 03:56:00 - [195] Edited by: Tortugan on 23/06/2009 03:56:55 Originally by: Trinity Nova Quote: Honestly- you wonder why Eve has so many balance issues? It's because people like those supporting this thread cba to learn from their mistakes, and be creative- they'd rather just complain and blame CCP. Assault Frigs are fine. If you can't fly them well, that's your own damn problem. Get with the program nubbin, you're talking out of your buttocks. I'm happy to listen to you if you give a legitimate reason for your support- but 90% of the supporters in this thread have given no reasonable response to its criticisms.
Moloch Baal Amarr	Posted - 2009.06.23 10:08:00 - [196] Originally by: Tortugan Quote: you didnt read any of the posts in this thread now did you In fact, I did. Did you? NO U !!!11eleven!1!11!!one!111 seriously, if you've read everything then you must at least have read two or three points which made some decent sense. If you're familiar with flying AF's anyway. Originally by: Tortugan Honestly- you wonder why Eve has so many balance issues? It's because people like those supporting this thread cba to learn from their mistakes, and be creative- they'd rather just complain and blame CCP. Assault Frigs are fine. If you can't fly them well, that's your own damn problem. I point fingers and jump to conclusions, cause I own a few AF's thus it is my right to do so... Im awesome, you guys are stoopid! Noone is blaming anyone, learn to read.
Salpad Carebears with Attitude	Posted - 2009.06.23 19:36:00 - [197] -- Salpad
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.06.23 22:05:00 - [198] Originally by: Moloch Baal Originally by: Tortugan Quote: you didnt read any of the posts in this thread now did you In fact, I did. Did you? NO U !!!11eleven!1!11!!one!111 seriously, if you've read everything then you must at least have read two or three points which made some decent sense. If you're familiar with flying AF's anyway. Originally by: Tortugan Honestly- you wonder why Eve has so many balance issues? It's because people like those supporting this thread cba to learn from their mistakes, and be creative- they'd rather just complain and blame CCP. Assault Frigs are fine. If you can't fly them well, that's your own damn problem. I point fingers and jump to conclusions, cause I own a few AF's thus it is my right to do so... Im awesome, you guys are stoopid! Noone is blaming anyone, learn to read. What arguments have I failed to address? ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard
Alekseyev Karrde Noir.	Posted - 2009.06.24 20:05:00 - [199] From a T2 frigate frequent flyer with a lot of experience and who DOESNT use 3rd party RR, I'm maintaining AF deserve a 4th bonus. ;p --- Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.06.24 20:25:00 - [200] Quote: From a T2 frigate frequent flyer with a lot of experience and who DOESNT use 3rd party RR, I'm maintaining AF deserve a 4th bonus. ;p Having different views on acceptable PVP tactics somehow makes you more reputable? If you're implying that I only like AFs because they have high resistances, and thus are excellent candidates for remote rep, you're wrong. While it's certainly a plus that 2 large remote reps can hold AFs up against thousands of DPS from battleships, I've only once that I can remember ever been remote-repped in my AF, and it was an oneiros in corp that did it. Coincidentally, had the blaster celestis I was fighting at the time been interested in something other than station games, it wouldn't have been necessary for my ishkur, which was setup at the time for MWD/Rails to tempt him by getting within warp scram, and then blaster range necessitating remote rep. Aleks- as long as we're being 'professional' let's keep things on topic. Neutral remote repping has absolutely nothing to do with this thread- nor does remote repping in general. I still have yet to hear any counter-points to my previous arguments other than 'OMG NOOB YOU CHEETED AT EVE, CLRLY YOU HAV NO IDEA WAT U R TALKING ABOOT'

Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.06.25 09:48:00 - [201] The problem is firstly that anyone can get kills in any ship if they know how to fit and fly it and understand what engagements it can win. Prometheus Exenthals's Battle Atron vid is a good example of this. Does this mean Atrons are awesome and should cost 20 mil isk each? In addition, your experience of Assault Frigates is limited to the Ishkur. I've stated many times in this thread that if all AFs were as good as the Ishkur there wouldn't be a problem. If you can't see why its far superior to the others then go back and read the thread, its in there somewhere.
Lord Cath	Posted - 2009.06.25 10:56:00 - [202] Originally by: Tortugan I still have yet to hear any counter-points to my previous arguments other than 'OMG NOOB YOU CHEETED AT EVE, CLRLY YOU HAV NO IDEA WAT U R TALKING ABOOT' unfortunately thats the kind of tone with which you entered the discussion to begin with. You kinda clearly stated that everyone who thinks AF's need their fourth bonus are a bunch of whiners who need to learn to fly AF's. Dont expect people to constructively discuss things if thats how you see it.
BloodSoaked Goddess The Perfect Storm	Posted - 2009.06.25 12:42:00 - [203] Edited by: BloodSoaked Goddess on 25/06/2009 12:42:23 While promoting for a bit of help for the AF, has anyone out there considered saving the faction frig? Succubus:really does suck. 65 mil to buy, 200-300 mil to fit (if you want to actually fit it decently and get something out of it) damage of wet rag. Worm: I think if it was buried even the garbage in the earth would spit it back out. If you can fit it good luck. When you do fit it, again its damage is pathetic for the cost of purchase and fitting it. Republic fleet firetail: Probably the best of the lot and with the nano nerf its now just a fancy looking medium speed frig, still useful however and easy to fit. _-.~Nemo Me Impune Lacessit~.-_
Dibsi Dei Salamyhkaisten kilta	Posted - 2009.06.25 12:48:00 - [204] Originally by: Tortugan Assault Frigs are fine. If you can't fly them well, that's your own damn problem. Agreed.
Beovylf	Posted - 2009.06.25 13:46:00 - [205] +1
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.06.25 19:06:00 - [206] Originally by: Wang Jing The problem is firstly that anyone can get kills in any ship if they know how to fit and fly it and understand what engagements it can win. Prometheus Exenthals's Battle Atron vid is a good example of this. Does this mean Atrons are awesome and should cost 20 mil isk each? In addition, your experience of Assault Frigates is limited to the Ishkur. I've stated many times in this thread that if all AFs were as good as the Ishkur there wouldn't be a problem. If you can't see why its far superior to the others then go back and read the thread, its in there somewhere. The cost of assault frigs is a factor of supply and demand- there's plenty of market for them from people who know how to fly them, and so their price stays on par with other T2 frigs. Yes, my personal experience in AFs is limited to Gallente, as Tortugan is a purely Gallente trained toon (okay, I have Caldari Frigate IV). Let me ask you this- assuming that both pilots are competent and capable of rigging and T2 fitting their ship, what would the counter to an assault frigate be? ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.06.25 20:47:00 - [207] Originally by: Tortugan The cost of assault frigs is a factor of supply and demand- there's plenty of market for them from people who know how to fly them, and so their price stays on par with other T2 frigs. Yes, my personal experience in AFs is limited to Gallente, as Tortugan is a purely Gallente trained toon (okay, I have Caldari Frigate IV). Let me ask you this- assuming that both pilots are competent and capable of rigging and T2 fitting their ship, what would the counter to an assault frigate be? Medium or Large neuts. Double webs. ECM Drones. Cruisers that fit frigate sized guns (Vexor, Maller, Thorax sometimes). Ships with plenty of bonused light drones. They are all deadly to AFs, and an experienced cruiser pilot is unlikely to get in a fight with one without having one (or more ) to hand. We are talking about equally skilled pilots here, not ganking a week old player in a failfit Bellicose. My argument is not that Assault Frigates should dominate T1 cruisers; I believe that it is great that they occupy a niche role in the game and require more delicate use, but it is in the interest of balance that they receive the full 4 bonuses that other T2 combat ships have. This will allow them to be a little better in the roles they fill, but they will still have the same weaknesses and thus require the same thoughtful flying to be sucessful with.
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.06.25 22:07:00 - [208] Edited by: Tortugan on 25/06/2009 22:11:56 Here's my issue- I've fought a friend in a well-fit harpy in my buffer tanked dominix. I was using a full rack of medium neuts, triple webs, a scram, and hobgoblin IIs. My drone skills are nearly maxed out (interfacing V, combat drone op V, etc) and he ALONE was able to get my 100k EHP dominix into about 65% armor before having to retreat. I guess I just think they're a bit overpowered :) Edit: As far as cruisers go, an AF with an afterburner is faster than a MWD cruiser 90% of the time, not to mention most good AF pilots squeeze on a MWD instead. I have absolutely no fear engaging any T1 cruiser- I orbit him at 20km, if he warp disrupts me (hinting that he doesn't have a scram), I pull in to blaster range and mess up his day.
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.06.25 22:43:00 - [209] Edited by: Wang Jing on 25/06/2009 22:43:17 So he was able to run his guns while being hit with 6 Medium Neuts? Try again.
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.06.25 23:32:00 - [210] Originally by: Wang Jing Edited by: Wang Jing on 25/06/2009 22:43:17 So he was able to run his guns while being hit with 6 Medium Neuts? Try again. Cheap C-Type small nos goes a long way. Overloaded, he was able to run his guns and his shield booster- he would hit them each time his nos came through. ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard

Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.06.26 01:06:00 - [211] I'm sorry, either you failed to stagger you neuts, which means it was purely down to pilot error, or you're lying.
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.06.26 01:23:00 - [212] I staggered them. I can't recall whether he was cap boosting as well or not- and at some point he did cap out, but he'd managed to get me quite a ways into my buffer. Again, they take skill to fly well, but as it stands they are if anything overpowered.
Zenhexzen	Posted - 2009.06.26 03:48:00 - [213]
GodI'mBeautiful	Posted - 2009.06.26 18:53:00 - [214] Absolutely. Gimme me my tracking on my Jag and my Wolf
darkmancer	Posted - 2009.06.26 19:52:00 - [215] Signed Make the hawk and vengence useful!! --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong
Ghorrn Kranthil	Posted - 2009.06.26 22:37:00 - [216] well, as we have to gain higer skills for using these ships, they should be worth it, not only for better resistances/slightly better fitting possibilities... so more slots or more interesting bonuses would be fine with me!
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.06.26 22:42:00 - [217] I never really understand the logic behind CCP's refusal to have that 4th bonus. It really can't be their concern for game balance, because HACs have 4 bonuses and they are much more powerful than AF could ever be I think it's just pure stubbornness, and general aversion to common sense design practices. Once they set their mind on something, no amount of petitioning and logical argumentation is gonna move them. Just give up, and focus on issues that have some hope of getting fixed
Bunzan Cardinal Ouroboros Incorporated	Posted - 2009.06.27 06:44:00 - [218] i agree
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.06.28 12:33:00 - [219] Hawk and Vengeance both suffer from the inadequacies of rockets. Fix rockets and they move way up the list of "good AFs". Matari AFs with tracking bonus .. talk about being overpowered. Near perfect resists for tank (easy to plug), very high damage for their class, capless weaponry and high speeds .. you want to add superior tracking to that list? Enyo is scary as is, maybe allow for a pure gank fit by giving it a 5th gun slot, similar to what was done for Zealot. Ishkur is the best AF currently, no contest. Drones just add so much versatility that nothing really compares. Quantum Rise gave an indirect boost to the AF class due to the new speed mechanics, but the class itself needs an overhaul as does so many things. Make them matter as a whole and don't apply band-aid which usually end up being all thats done when the cries stop. No to deliberately overpowered ships!
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.06.28 13:24:00 - [220] Edited by: Wang Jing on 28/06/2009 13:24:47 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Hawk and Vengeance both suffer from the inadequacies of rockets. Fix rockets and they move way up the list of "good AFs". Matari AFs with tracking bonus .. talk about being overpowered. Near perfect resists for tank (easy to plug), very high damage for their class, capless weaponry and high speeds .. you want to add superior tracking to that list? Enyo is scary as is, maybe allow for a pure gank fit by giving it a 5th gun slot, similar to what was done for Zealot. Ishkur is the best AF currently, no contest. Drones just add so much versatility that nothing really compares. Quantum Rise gave an indirect boost to the AF class due to the new speed mechanics, but the class itself needs an overhaul as does so many things. Make them matter as a whole and don't apply band-aid which usually end up being all thats done when the cries stop. No to deliberately overpowered ships! When rockets are rebalanced I hope CCP are sensible enough to look at the ships that use them as part of it. A damage related 4th bonus for the Hawk and Vengeance, couple with whatever rocket changes are made, should bring them to around 140, 150 dps. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Your take on the Minmatar AFs is pretty staggering. To start with the obvious, your claim that they have very high damage for their class; the Wolf has the lowest dps of all the "gank" AFs (Enyo, Retribution, Wolf and Harpy, defined by slot arrangements and weapon bonuses rather than tanking bonuses). In fact the Wolf is outdamaged by one of the "tackle" AFs as well, the Ishkur, which is frankly appalling. The Jaguar fares a little better, beaten only by the Ishkur in its category, but only because the rocket using AFs are terrible. Note that the Ishkur puts out around 100 dps more than the Jag in a typical set up. A tracking bonus is the perfect way to address this, as it allows the Minnie ships to actually put their high speed to good use, countering for example the Retribution or Harpy by flying in close and attempting to speed tank, but when fighting an Enyo try to stay at range and use their falloff to win. The Ishkur needs to remain where it is and the other assault frigs should be brought to that level, in my opinion. I apologise to any Ishkur pilots, but giving it another good bonus, like a drone damage bonus, would just be crazy.

Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.06.29 04:13:00 - [221] I think the biggest issue with AFs is that everyone seems to be addressing them according to EFT outputs. While a vengeance or a hawk may put out a very small amount of DPS on paper, when you consider what rockets can do to other frigates, you might be inclined to change your opinion. Again, as I've stated time and time again in this thread- the different ships fare better against different targets, and there is no insta-win button. Considering how ridiculously fast rockets tear T2 frigates apart as it is, a damage bonus or addition of launcher harpoint/s would make them ridiculously overpowered, and upset what little balance has been maintained by CCP through all the complaints from players who don't bother learning how to fly their ships. And again, as linked from a previous page: Evidence That Vengeances are fine as is.
Atlanticpyro Burning Eden Dark Solar Empire	Posted - 2009.06.29 04:35:00 - [222] Supported
Izo Alabaster Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company	Posted - 2009.06.29 14:28:00 - [223]
Davlos State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.06.29 20:22:00 - [224] Edited by: Davlos on 29/06/2009 20:28:27 My name is Davlos, and I endorse this product and/or service. --- Originally by: Revan Neferis Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
ArcticPrism	Posted - 2009.07.01 16:43:00 - [225] Originally by: Tortugan Edited by: Tortugan on 25/06/2009 22:11:56 Here's my issue- I've fought a friend in a well-fit harpy in my buffer tanked dominix. I was using a full rack of medium neuts, triple webs, a scram, and hobgoblin IIs. My drone skills are nearly maxed out (interfacing V, combat drone op V, etc) and he ALONE was able to get my 100k EHP dominix into about 65% armor before having to retreat. You know that hawk/harpy has 80% base thermal resistance in shield right? Even more in armor. Also, what does triple web and scram have to do with anything? You didn't have any guns fitted. It won't do much if anything to improve the effectiveness of a light drone.
JcJet Tungus Revolt	Posted - 2009.07.01 21:53:00 - [226] +1 --- English Language (rank 5)
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.07.02 01:13:00 - [227] Originally by: ArcticPrism Originally by: Tortugan Edited by: Tortugan on 25/06/2009 22:11:56 Here's my issue- I've fought a friend in a well-fit harpy in my buffer tanked dominix. I was using a full rack of medium neuts, triple webs, a scram, and hobgoblin IIs. My drone skills are nearly maxed out (interfacing V, combat drone op V, etc) and he ALONE was able to get my 100k EHP dominix into about 65% armor before having to retreat. You know that hawk/harpy has 80% base thermal resistance in shield right? Even more in armor. Also, what does triple web and scram have to do with anything? You didn't have any guns fitted. It won't do much if anything to improve the effectiveness of a light drone. And an 80% base thermal resistance doesn't make it OP? Admittedly, 1-2 TPs would've been better than the extra webs, but I wanted it to be somewhat realistic- if I was actually expected to hold a harpy down in my 100m/s dominix, I'd need some damn good tackle. Not to mention, web/scrams do help small drones hit, as they slow down the target & ultimately increase the drones' ROF since they no longer need to chase. ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard
ArcticPrism	Posted - 2009.07.02 01:30:00 - [228] Edited by: ArcticPrism on 02/07/2009 01:32:37 Originally by: Tortugan Originally by: ArcticPrism Originally by: Tortugan Edited by: Tortugan on 25/06/2009 22:11:56 Here's my issue- I've fought a friend in a well-fit harpy in my buffer tanked dominix. I was using a full rack of medium neuts, triple webs, a scram, and hobgoblin IIs. My drone skills are nearly maxed out (interfacing V, combat drone op V, etc) and he ALONE was able to get my 100k EHP dominix into about 65% armor before having to retreat. You know that hawk/harpy has 80% base thermal resistance in shield right? Even more in armor. Also, what does triple web and scram have to do with anything? You didn't have any guns fitted. It won't do much if anything to improve the effectiveness of a light drone. And an 80% base thermal resistance doesn't make it OP? Admittedly, 1-2 TPs would've been better than the extra webs, but I wanted it to be somewhat realistic- if I was actually expected to hold a harpy down in my 100m/s dominix, I'd need some damn good tackle. Not to mention, web/scrams do help small drones hit, as they slow down the target & ultimately increase the drones' ROF since they no longer need to chase. If you are worried about your drones missing, use Warriors, they have much better tracking and are faster than hobgoblins and explosive is one of the harpy's weaker resists. Also, if 80% thermal makes the harpy overpowered, you would agree that T2 Frigates, Cruisers and Battlecruisers are all overpowered then? Nearly all of them have quite high base resists.
Neesa Corrinne Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.07.02 02:46:00 - [229] ---------------------------------
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.07.02 04:02:00 - [230] Originally by: ArcticPrism Edited by: ArcticPrism on 02/07/2009 01:32:37 Originally by: Tortugan Originally by: ArcticPrism Originally by: Tortugan Edited by: Tortugan on 25/06/2009 22:11:56 Here's my issue- I've fought a friend in a well-fit harpy in my buffer tanked dominix. I was using a full rack of medium neuts, triple webs, a scram, and hobgoblin IIs. My drone skills are nearly maxed out (interfacing V, combat drone op V, etc) and he ALONE was able to get my 100k EHP dominix into about 65% armor before having to retreat. You know that hawk/harpy has 80% base thermal resistance in shield right? Even more in armor. Also, what does triple web and scram have to do with anything? You didn't have any guns fitted. It won't do much if anything to improve the effectiveness of a light drone. And an 80% base thermal resistance doesn't make it OP? Admittedly, 1-2 TPs would've been better than the extra webs, but I wanted it to be somewhat realistic- if I was actually expected to hold a harpy down in my 100m/s dominix, I'd need some damn good tackle. Not to mention, web/scrams do help small drones hit, as they slow down the target & ultimately increase the drones' ROF since they no longer need to chase. If you are worried about your drones missing, use Warriors, they have much better tracking and are faster than hobgoblins and explosive is one of the harpy's weaker resists. Also, if 80% thermal makes the harpy overpowered, you would agree that T2 Frigates, Cruisers and Battlecruisers are all overpowered then? Nearly all of them have quite high base resists. Warriors also put out a significant amount less DPS- especially when comparing the T2 drones- however that's not my argument. As far as overpowered ships, T2 cruisers + BCs are infinitely easier to lock down than frigates- scram, web, and they're fish in a barrel. Frigates on the other hand generally require at least 2 webs to be fully tackled by anything cruiser+. Hence, I think AFs are overpowered if anything- not underpowered. As for other T2 ships, I think they're for the most part fine as is, aside from build costs. ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard

Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.07.02 09:43:00 - [231] So the Harpy is overpowered, but the Eagle, with exactly the same base resists, the same 3 bonuses, plus a 4th bonus for 5% shield resists per level, isn't?
ViRUS Pottage Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.02 16:02:00 - [232] Supported! _________ Originally by: CCP Taera May I have your stuff?
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.07.03 02:19:00 - [233] Edited by: Tortugan on 03/07/2009 02:22:48 Originally by: Wang Jing So the Harpy is overpowered, but the Eagle, with exactly the same base resists, the same 3 bonuses, plus a 4th bonus for 5% shield resists per level, isn't? The Eagle is a cruiser, and costs quite a bit more- both in ISK and SP. The Harpy is a frigate. Again, I'm not saying that AFs are overpowered as is- but they certainly could use a nerf more than a boost. Edit: Typo ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.07.03 11:16:00 - [234] Originally by: Tortugan Edited by: Tortugan on 03/07/2009 02:22:48 Originally by: Wang Jing So the Harpy is overpowered, but the Eagle, with exactly the same base resists, the same 3 bonuses, plus a 4th bonus for 5% shield resists per level, isn't? The Eagle is a cruiser, and costs quite a bit more- both in ISK and SP. The Harpy is a frigate. Again, I'm not saying that AFs are overpowered as is- but they certainly could use a nerf more than a boost. Edit: Typo The Merlin is a Frigate and the Moa a cruiser, and they both have the same 2 bonuses. I guess the Merlin needs a nerf?
Diakono Bulgarian Mafia Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.07.03 11:48:00 - [235]
ltsignal	Posted - 2009.07.03 20:34:00 - [236] I think this would be a great thing to do for the v1.5 release in August.
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.07.03 22:51:00 - [237] Edited by: Tortugan on 03/07/2009 22:57:05 Originally by: Wang Jing Originally by: Tortugan Edited by: Tortugan on 03/07/2009 02:22:48 Originally by: Wang Jing So the Harpy is overpowered, but the Eagle, with exactly the same base resists, the same 3 bonuses, plus a 4th bonus for 5% shield resists per level, isn't? The Eagle is a cruiser, and costs quite a bit more- both in ISK and SP. The Harpy is a frigate. Again, I'm not saying that AFs are overpowered as is- but they certainly could use a nerf more than a boost. Edit: Typo The Merlin is a Frigate and the Moa a cruiser, and they both have the same 2 bonuses. I guess the Merlin needs a nerf? Nope. Quote: Again, I'm not saying that AFs are overpowered as is- but they certainly could use a nerf more than a boost. Quote: Your arguments- T2 needs a boost, T2 is the same as T1 in terms of comparative bonuses "I guess the Merlin needs a boost?" ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard
Mahai Ano Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.07.04 16:13:00 - [238] Would be nice...
Kaylan Jahlar Minmatar Industrial Limited	Posted - 2009.07.04 16:15:00 - [239] Edited by: Kaylan Jahlar on 04/07/2009 16:15:11 Well supported! ________________ Kaylan Jahlar The Assembly Hall needs your support!
Nico Minoru	Posted - 2009.07.04 16:15:00 - [240] shamelessly and with barely a clue i say sure.

K'aos Caldari MegaTraveller	Posted - 2009.07.05 16:36:00 - [241] Let's keep this issue at the top.
Lady Shaniqua Kenssy Fried Chicken Kru	Posted - 2009.07.05 17:20:00 - [242]
drmurda Arkons of Myth Aggression.	Posted - 2009.07.05 19:48:00 - [243] /Support
yani dumyat Infusion. Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2009.07.06 14:39:00 - [244] And fix rockets while you're at it
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.07.07 17:44:00 - [245] Originally by: K'aos Let's keep this issue at the top. Agreed
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.07.07 18:59:00 - [246] Originally by: Wang Jing Originally by: K'aos Let's keep this issue at the top. Agreed And let's ignore the counter-arguments to this issue, while we're at it! Gooooooo CSM!!! ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.07.07 20:35:00 - [247] Originally by: Tortugan Originally by: Wang Jing Originally by: K'aos Let's keep this issue at the top. Agreed And let's ignore the counter-arguments to this issue, while we're at it! Gooooooo CSM!!! You've just repeatedly stated that AFs are overpowered, giving frankly unbelievable anecdotes as proof. I don't see any new points to address. Perhaps you'd care to state your arguments clearly for me, i might be missing something? Besides, this has already been forwarded to and approved by the CSM. Of course I'm glad the topic is still active, hopefully is attracting plenty of attention to the issue.
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.07.07 21:42:00 - [248] Originally by: Wang Jing Originally by: Tortugan Originally by: Wang Jing Originally by: K'aos Let's keep this issue at the top. Agreed And let's ignore the counter-arguments to this issue, while we're at it! Gooooooo CSM!!! You've just repeatedly stated that AFs are overpowered, giving frankly unbelievable anecdotes as proof. I don't see any new points to address. Perhaps you'd care to state your arguments clearly for me, i might be missing something? Besides, this has already been forwarded to and approved by the CSM. Of course I'm glad the topic is still active, hopefully is attracting plenty of attention to the issue. Firstly, the anecdote was legitimate- whether or not you choose to accept it- however at this point, that's not my argument. Secondly, I'm not asking for an AF nerf- I'm saying that they're fine as is- and IF ANYTHING overpowered. As for my argument, you've stated that the relationship between T1 Frigates and T1 Cruisers is balanced, and that it is the equivalent of the relationship between T2 Frigates and T2 Cruisers- therefore, you've argued yourself that the relationship between T2 Frigates and T2 Cruisers is even. Additionally: AFs are harder to hit than cruisers, therefore tank better by default AFs have ridiculously high resistances- it's not hard to get >80% across the board, which means excellent active tanks, and ridiculously good remote rep (1 large remote rep on an 80% resistance tanks 426 DPS- not even factoring in the size of the ship) AFs cost a fraction of the price of T2 ships of other classes- a Vengeance costs literally 1/7th the cost of a Zealot in Jita, and take about 1/3 the time to skill into A competent AF pilot will engage T2 cruisers, and leave if the fight doesn't go their way- I've engaged Pilgrims, Ishtars, Deimos', to name a few in my AF Every AF has a role- but no AF has every role The main argument for AFs not receiving a boost is something that's hard for a lot of people to fathom. It's that their mobility is their greatest asset- you can really choose your fights if you know what you're doing, and if people aren't specifically set up to kill you (railguns on a Deimos to catch an orbiting AF? A full nano pilgrim to catch an MWD AF in neut range?) then you can kill them with ease. What you CANNOT do with AFs is go Rambo into any fight with any ship and expect to win. You need to be cautious- if you're in a blaster Harpy, you probably shouldn't be going after that vexor with small guns & drones. If you're in a rocket Vengeance, your targets should be other AFs and frigates- not cruisers. AFs are not, and should not become 'I Win' buttons. A competent AF pilot should be capable of taking out some, but not all cruisers- and of course the occasional lucky kill of a better ship. I believe this is the case currently, for the long list of reasons stated above. I would appreciate some input from our delegates, if any of them have the cajones to actually make arguments for this buff rather than just Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer Apologies for the wall of text :) ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.07 22:06:00 - [249] Originally by: Tortugan Firstly, the anecdote was legitimate- whether or not you choose to accept it- however at this point, that's not my argument. Anecdotal evidence is still, you know, anecdotal and does not really add much. I don't believe everyone here is advocating a buff, but a coherent design with T2 ships. A fourth bonus does not necessary mean a better ship if it is rebalanced in the process. But coherency aside, there are some nagging issues with AFs. For instance why should I bother with Gallente AFs when the Taranis hits harder, fly faster and actually can withstand quite a beating? Sure there are specific situations, but is this how it should be in general?
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.07.07 22:30:00 - [250] Edited by: Tortugan on 07/07/2009 22:30:43 Originally by: van Uber Originally by: Tortugan Firstly, the anecdote was legitimate- whether or not you choose to accept it- however at this point, that's not my argument. Anecdotal evidence is still, you know, anecdotal and does not really add much. I don't believe everyone here is advocating a buff, but a coherent design with T2 ships. A fourth bonus does not necessary mean a better ship if it is rebalanced in the process. But coherency aside, there are some nagging issues with AFs. For instance why should I bother with Gallente AFs when the Taranis hits harder, fly faster and actually can withstand quite a beating? Sure there are specific situations, but is this how it should be in general? If they're rebalanced in the process, sure- but quite frankly, they're fine as is, and while adding a 4th bonus might make them more coherent, the rebalancing entailed would just create more work that CCP doesn't need, with no gain. As for Gallente AFs vs 'Ranis, that sounds like you'd be advocating a nerf of the 'ranis rather than a buff of AFs- however if your 'ranis would like to 1v1 my ishkur, I'd be happy to oblige :) ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard

Yahrr The Tuskers	Posted - 2009.07.09 00:28:00 - [251] bumperbumpbump... bumpbump* still got my support :)
TakeitDEEP	Posted - 2009.07.09 10:04:00 - [252] Back to the top. Winter release seems reasonable.
Yon Krum The Knights Templar Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.07.10 04:13:00 - [253] Edited by: Yon Krum on 10/07/2009 04:14:19 Originally by: van Uber Originally by: Tortugan Firstly, the anecdote was legitimate- whether or not you choose to accept it- however at this point, that's not my argument. Anecdotal evidence is still, you know, anecdotal and does not really add much. I don't believe everyone here is advocating a buff, but a coherent design with T2 ships. A fourth bonus does not necessary mean a better ship if it is rebalanced in the process. But coherency aside, there are some nagging issues with AFs. For instance why should I bother with Gallente AFs when the Taranis hits harder, fly faster and actually can withstand quite a beating? Sure there are specific situations, but is this how it should be in general? Anecdotal evidence is valid in any court, or for any decision. The deciders must determine if the witness is carrying some bias that taints his testimony, and then weight the preponderence of anecdotes for and against the decision. /legal For my background: Personally I like AFs, but mostly use Amarr ones, which are definitely not solomobiles (much less solopwnmobiles). Both your stances are correct, depending on situation and skills (in-game and out) of the pilots. T2 ships used on their designed scenarios generally murder their targets unless a specific counter-setup is encountered. The point stands, however, that from a coherent design perspective the AFs are lacking somethings. If you consider T2 resistence bonuses to be a "bonus" then HACs have 5 bonuses, same with HICs, as do Interceptors (4 normal + 1 role, but no resistences), and Interdictors (4 + 1 special). Marauders have 7(!) bonuses if you count role and resistences. Recons have 5, not counting covert cyno gen as a bonus but counting resistences. Exhumers have 5, including resistences but not counting fitting strips (which is shared with the mining barge, after all). Command ships have 5. In fact the only other T2 ship that carries 4 bonuses is the Electronic Attack Ship--which we could do a thread on arguing it is also under-powered and at least needs resistence bonuses. AF may or may not be fine--especially after rockets are adjusted--but they deserve some special consideration as to whether given overall design and specifically versus their competitors in cost (the Interceptor) they are not in fact underpowered. --Krum --Krum
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.10 08:23:00 - [254] Originally by: Yon Krum Anecdotal evidence is valid in any court, or for any decision. --Krum I might agree with the first part, but the second. No. In any scientific study you look for statistically secure data, anecdotes has nothing to add there since they describe a single event. And I would argue that game design/balance has a lot more to gain from a scientific perspective.
VanNostrum The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.07.10 14:22:00 - [255]
SuiJuris	Posted - 2009.07.10 17:22:00 - [256] Edited by: SuiJuris on 10/07/2009 17:24:15 Tortugan, Rockets are not fine, I have flown the retribution and Vengeance quite a bit. And I have used both rockets and guns on my Vengeances. It takes a sickening amount of time to kill the most trival of targets with rockets even when they are scrammed and webbed. I had 4 tech II, rocket launcher and a BCUII fit and a freaking THRASHER was able to de aggress and jump through a gate before dieing. Sure I was in absolutely no danger of him breaking my tank but Rockets are terrible. Same ship, Vengeance with 3 unbonused LAZORS, completely different story. Rockets not only have worse on paper DPS but suffer from HORRIBLE explosion Radius and volocity so much so that a effing BATTLESHIP with a AB can speed tank some of the damage. Now on topic here I agree AF's could use a fourth bonus, this has to be done correctly as some AF's are very good ships currently. I do not aggree with Wolf's and Jags needing a Tracking bonus they already use the best tracking turret in the game. If you are having tracking problems with Small autocannons slow down a littel unless your target is also using small autocannons you should be able to start hitting him before he starts hitting you. As far as a 4th bonus for the Retribution I think Tracking would be a great bonus for it. ROF might make it hit a leetle too hard. The Ishkur was passable even before the speed rebalance and is a amazing ship now. Also if your in a Domi and you for whatever reason decide to use light drones vs a blarpy as opposed to medium drones wth are you doing. Valk II's travel faster then 3kms guys. I have on numorous occasions jumped a solo Arbitrator into a 8 man frig / af gang and came out either alive or with 4-5 kills, if your Domi can't swat them down I'm really at a loss. --- It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one."
SuiJuris	Posted - 2009.07.10 17:22:00 - [257] --- It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one."
Jaror	Posted - 2009.07.10 19:39:00 - [258] +1
Flaming Butterfly	Posted - 2009.07.10 23:24:00 - [259] Why not give 10% bonus to afterburner velocity per frigate level? Retribution definitely needs a second midslot for at least either a small cap booster or some kind of tackle gear.
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.07.11 01:42:00 - [260] Originally by: SuiJuris Edited by: SuiJuris on 10/07/2009 17:24:15 Tortugan, Rockets are not fine, I have flown the retribution and Vengeance quite a bit. And I have used both rockets and guns on my Vengeances. It takes a sickening amount of time to kill the most trival of targets with rockets even when they are scrammed and webbed. I had 4 tech II, rocket launcher and a BCUII fit and a freaking THRASHER was able to de aggress and jump through a gate before dieing. Sure I was in absolutely no danger of him breaking my tank but Rockets are terrible. Same ship, Vengeance with 3 unbonused LAZORS, completely different story. Rockets not only have worse on paper DPS but suffer from HORRIBLE explosion Radius and volocity so much so that a effing BATTLESHIP with a AB can speed tank some of the damage. Now on topic here I agree AF's could use a fourth bonus, this has to be done correctly as some AF's are very good ships currently. I do not aggree with Wolf's and Jags needing a Tracking bonus they already use the best tracking turret in the game. If you are having tracking problems with Small autocannons slow down a littel unless your target is also using small autocannons you should be able to start hitting him before he starts hitting you. As far as a 4th bonus for the Retribution I think Tracking would be a great bonus for it. ROF might make it hit a leetle too hard. The Ishkur was passable even before the speed rebalance and is a amazing ship now. Also if your in a Domi and you for whatever reason decide to use light drones vs a blarpy as opposed to medium drones wth are you doing. Valk II's travel faster then 3kms guys. I have on numorous occasions jumped a solo Arbitrator into a 8 man frig / af gang and came out either alive or with 4-5 kills, if your Domi can't swat them down I'm really at a loss. If rockets aren't fine, it's not your AF that needs a bonus, it's the weapons system- however if you try your unbonused LAZORZ versus the rockets when attacking another AF, I think you may consider changing your stance. Back when I was pirating, a local would fly around in her rocket vengeance and utterly **** other AFs she fought- just a matter of finding the right targets. As for the drones- I did indeed use Hobgoblin IIs at the time, and decided to use that example as most people don't realize Valks track frigates with good skills. However, I have since tanked an arbitrator with a flight of Valk IIs in my Ishkur- one of the weaker tanked AFs. And if you don't believe that, I'd be happy to prove it to you. (Clarification: I tanked his drones, I did not pop them, as the arby was friendly, and I was testing a setup- I would have been able to tank them as long as I had cap boosters) ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard

SuiJuris	Posted - 2009.07.11 02:24:00 - [261] Any AF can sport a strong enough tank to tank 4 rocket launchers on a Vengeance, ANY of them. Its on paper dps is a measely not much over a hundred and you don't get anywhere near that due to the horrible explosion volocity. Rockets Currently are terrible. Also I have no idea how your having so much success against drone boats with a small ship as I **** ANYTHING frigate sized in my Arbitrator. Enyo's and Ishkurs included. Also not sure if your Aware but a Thrasher sports a horrible tank compaired to a AF especially if its scrammed and webbed and it takes a laughable amount of time to kill even them. Seriously Get in a Vengeance, Fit Rocket launchers and go try to kill something Beefier then a Executioner, Then come back and tell me how it feels to try beating someone to death with limp noodles. I fly the Retribution a lot, Its crazy survivable and does decent DPS. Would I love a 4th bonus yes I would. Would I worship the dev incharge of a decision to give it a 2nd mid hell ya. Is it useable now, yes. Is it worth the cost maybe. Do I look at Ishkurs and wish I was skilled for them Yup, do I look at a Jag and wish I could fly them Yes I do. 4 effing mids. Most the AF's Ishkur Excluded need a little love. Some of them either themselves or there weapon systems (rockets) need love. If a vengeance did 240 DPS with rockets and tanked like it currently does that would be VERY broken, If it got a good 150 dps and could actually applied taht to a webbed scrammed target it would be worth what it costs for something other then a amazing tackler. And yes the Vengeance with Dual SARII's and Dual Nos is a AMAZING heavy tackler but buffing rockets wouldn't make that better as at that point it can't fit them. Quit going on about your Ishkur as EVERYONE here aggree's that is the ONLY AF thats about where they should be. --- It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one."
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.07.11 08:24:00 - [262] Originally by: SuiJuris Any AF can sport a strong enough tank to tank 4 rocket launchers on a Vengeance, ANY of them. Its on paper dps is a measely not much over a hundred and you don't get anywhere near that due to the horrible explosion volocity. Rockets Currently are terrible. Also I have no idea how your having so much success against drone boats with a small ship as I **** ANYTHING frigate sized in my Arbitrator. Enyo's and Ishkurs included. Also not sure if your Aware but a Thrasher sports a horrible tank compaired to a AF especially if its scrammed and webbed and it takes a laughable amount of time to kill even them. Seriously Get in a Vengeance, Fit Rocket launchers and go try to kill something Beefier then a Executioner, Then come back and tell me how it feels to try beating someone to death with limp noodles. I fly the Retribution a lot, Its crazy survivable and does decent DPS. Would I love a 4th bonus yes I would. Would I worship the dev incharge of a decision to give it a 2nd mid hell ya. Is it useable now, yes. Is it worth the cost maybe. Do I look at Ishkurs and wish I was skilled for them Yup, do I look at a Jag and wish I could fly them Yes I do. 4 effing mids. Most the AF's Ishkur Excluded need a little love. Some of them either themselves or there weapon systems (rockets) need love. If a vengeance did 240 DPS with rockets and tanked like it currently does that would be VERY broken, If it got a good 150 dps and could actually applied taht to a webbed scrammed target it would be worth what it costs for something other then a amazing tackler. And yes the Vengeance with Dual SARII's and Dual Nos is a AMAZING heavy tackler but buffing rockets wouldn't make that better as at that point it can't fit them. Quit going on about your Ishkur as EVERYONE here aggree's that is the ONLY AF thats about where they should be. I suggest you contact Brigita Grohman if you'd like to learn how to fly a vengeance :) Also, the ishkur is good for its DPS, and its speed. The reference I used was in regards to its tank, which is regarded by most as subpar compared to the other AFs. ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard
ALex Vega Genesis Rising	Posted - 2009.07.11 13:55:00 - [263] Give the ret a 2nd mid!
Myrkala Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2009.07.11 16:17:00 - [264]
VanNostrum The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.07.11 17:27:00 - [265] Originally by: Tortugan I suggest you contact Brigita Grohman if you'd like to learn how to fly a vengeance :) Oh look everybody, there is this Brigita Grohman who knows how to fly a Vengeance when nobody else does Quick CCP! Hire this Brigita Grohman person and let him/her train the remaining thousands on how to fly the Vengeance since everybody else is stupid, and its easier than fixing rockets
Wannabehero Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2009.07.11 21:30:00 - [266] more bonuses pls! --- ≡√≡ Don't harsh my mellow
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.07.11 21:57:00 - [267] Originally by: VanNostrum Originally by: Tortugan I suggest you contact Brigita Grohman if you'd like to learn how to fly a vengeance :) Oh look everybody, there is this Brigita Grohman who knows how to fly a Vengeance when nobody else does Quick CCP! Hire this Brigita Grohman person and let him/her train the remaining thousands on how to fly the Vengeance since everybody else is stupid, and its easier than fixing rockets Not worth trying to convince people- they'd rather whine that every ship their race is underpowered until they get enough of a whine-blob that CCP has to do something to avoid mass emoragequits :) ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard
Oriodus Skiddies of Doom	Posted - 2009.07.11 22:40:00 - [268] Originally by: Oriodus A % reduction in capacitor effected by neutralizers (or similar attribute) would be nice... So any neutralizer being used against an AF with a bonus (lets say 10% per AF level, for the sake of an example) would do 50% of its draining (obvious I know)... but this means 50% from an encounter with a small neut in comparison to a large neut has a huge gap (in favour of the AF if against a medium, heavy), this means frigate versus frigate sized battles where a neutralizer is used wont be impacted too much. On the flipside it means that the AF has a role against larger ships in being able to sustain a grapple against them for that bit longer... ...it was a random thought - so I apologise... my other thoughts were far dirtier though
Foolish Bob Caldari FireTech In Tea We Trust	Posted - 2009.07.11 23:37:00 - [269] Wow, this is still going on? I'd have thought it would have been a done deal by now Tortugan, I totally see where you're coming from (see earlier posts) - I love AF. There are however 2 considerations to consider. 1st is design. It is clearly anomalous to have one class of t2 frig excluded from being 4th bonused. The question is - can you conceive of what that bonus might be without making the ship overpowered. 2nd is principle. Yes AF rock, and roll, and bugger your granny sideways if you don't respect their authorotah (just yesterday we killed 2 BS and a HIC that made the age old mistake of "oh it's just a gang of frigs how bad can it - augh! My gran!! Noooooo!!!") but as you fly around in them there's just a little that's not quite there. I've tested them all out and for some it's clearer than others. Ishkur not so much - any of the caldari ones, oh hell yes! I think what was proposed earlier was a solid proposal to fill both gaps, but it needs people like you and me to stand on Wang et al to make sure that CCP don't take a nerf bat to our beloved ships. And sorry, but that means no 2nd mid for the retri - even if it is my favourite.
SuiJuris	Posted - 2009.07.12 01:22:00 - [270] Originally by: Tortugan Originally by: VanNostrum Originally by: Tortugan I suggest you contact Brigita Grohman if you'd like to learn how to fly a vengeance :) Oh look everybody, there is this Brigita Grohman who knows how to fly a Vengeance when nobody else does Quick CCP! Hire this Brigita Grohman person and let him/her train the remaining thousands on how to fly the Vengeance since everybody else is stupid, and its easier than fixing rockets Not worth trying to convince people- they'd rather whine that every ship their race is underpowered until they get enough of a whine-blob that CCP has to do something to avoid mass emoragequits :) I never said Vengeances were bad bud, I said a Rocket Vengeances DPS is blatently terrible. Vengeances are awesome just fit 3 guns on them, your flavor, blaster lazors, autocannons. You will kill stuff faster. Once Rockets are fixed I doubt I'll fly much else unless money is tight, and if It got a 4th bonus lets hope for balances sake its not another tank bonus. --- It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one."

Arkios Odymei Incarnation of Evil	Posted - 2009.07.12 04:57:00 - [271] Ya ------------------------------------------------------------------
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.07.12 10:32:00 - [272] Foolish Bob you sexually assaulted my Jaguar a few weeks ago in 0.0 :(
Tray LiSans	Posted - 2009.07.13 07:38:00 - [273] Will definitely support. If nothing else the complete lack of any other assault frigates in almost any fleet I encounter, friendly or hostile, gives a strong hint that something is wrong.
McEivalley Fallen Angel's Blade.	Posted - 2009.07.13 15:43:00 - [274] I want my rail-sniper-harpy to be able to alpha pods or at least get the top damage on them. Insert clever remark where?
Tortugan F9X	Posted - 2009.07.14 07:02:00 - [275] Originally by: Tray LiSans Will definitely support. If nothing else the complete lack of any other assault frigates in almost any fleet I encounter, friendly or hostile, gives a strong hint that something is wrong. http://bydi.griefwatch.net/?p=engagement&kill=28993 AF gangs can tear through anything and are too small to hit. Try running one some time- if you know what you're doing, you'll be amazed what you can do. (Note- the BS showing up on our side of that engagement was hostile-- he'd been shooting at his buddy at some point). The reason you never see AFs in 'fleets' if because most 'fleets' are primarily BS based, and the anti-BS T2 Frigate is the Stealthbomber- which have quickly become popular since the changes made. AFs have another role- small gang guerrilla warfare like you see in that link. The reason your Hawk doesn't put out more DPS is because it tanks like a mofo- sure, a Manticore puts out more DPS on paper- but good luck tanking more than 2 hits from just about anything. ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard
Glafri	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:26:00 - [276] I like it!
Vuoto	Posted - 2009.07.15 12:03:00 - [277] RETRIBUTION: 5% to afterburner speed or 5% to smartbomb damage VENEGANCE: 5% to ECM strength ISKHUR: 5% to drone range control or 5% to webifier strength ENYO: 5% to afterburner speed JAGUAR: 5% warp jamming range WOLF: 5% tracking speed HAWK: 5% to tracking disruptor HARPY: 5% to tracking speed i think those bonuses are good for all: retribution in lack of medium slots needs a bonus for defence like more speed or an anti-drone system upgrade like smartbomb. the venegance using caldari tech in collaboration with khanid forged a nice ECM sistem the iskhur ( have the drone power of a CRUISER!!!!) shouldn't be overpowered with a drone damage bonus so a range control is really fine the Enyo is the good version of the retribution ( with a drone ) and a focus the bonus on afterburner is fine the jaguar using gallente tech help should mount an improved warp jamming bonus the wolf a really nice AF need just a tracking speed bonus the hawk in collaboration with amarr can use a tracking disruptor to deal with all the enemies turrets finally the harpy needs only the tracking speed bonus. or just give a role bonus to all the AF... like 10% to afterburner speed... but this is just a dream. AFs should move in battles to kill interceptors drones and other frigates bewaring of destroyers and interdictors without caring about bigger ships... doing that the tactics of battles will change drammatically in better giving a sense to AFs and to destroyers... and if you want another tip destroyers class need another another model like an assault destroyer or you can call it "hunter".
Tray LiSans	Posted - 2009.07.16 01:02:00 - [278] Harpy doesn't need any sort of tracking bonuses, I hit interceptors just fine with blasters and even rails. I wouldn't mind seeing seeing some of the other proposed HAC bonuses transfering down. A resist bonus on my blarpy would certainly boost my confidence in survival. What I would really agree with is a role bonus for something like 5% bonus to afterburner speed or something per level. Assault ships are one of the only cases were afterburners make sense to use, and a 200-300m/s boost to assault ship speed with AB would be helpful without being over the top.
Flaming Butterfly	Posted - 2009.07.16 06:21:00 - [279] Edited by: Flaming Butterfly on 16/07/2009 06:26:53 Just what is wrong with the AF frig bonus being what the T1 ship had or it slightly modified to suit the ship's role? Minmatar AF Rifter: 5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret damage and 7.5% bonus to tracking per level. Wolf: 10% Falloff + 5% damage ===== Jag: 10% Optimal + 5% damage Gallente AF Incursus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret falloff and 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage per skill level. Enyo: Optimal + tracking ===== (Modified) Imicus bonuses: 5% bonus to drone range and 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage per skill level Ishkur: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range and +5 Drone Bay capacity per level Caldari AF Merlin: 5% shield HP amount and 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range per skill level. Harpy: 10% optimal range + 5% small hybrid turret damage ===== (Modified) Merlin: 6.5% shield boost amount and 10% missile velocity per skill level Hawk: 5% kinetic damage + 5% small hybrid turret damage (5 high; 3 turret/3 launcher reconfig) Amarr AF (Modified) Punisher: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret capacitor use and 5% bonus to armor amount per skill level. Retribution: 10% optimal range + 5% small energy turret damage per level ===== (Modified) Tormentor Bonus: 10% bonus to EM rocket and damage and 5% bonus to Explosive, Kinetic and Thermal rocket damage per skill level. 5% bonus to rocket ROF. Vengeance: 10% bonus to rocket velocity + 5% bonus to cap recharge rate. Retributionabsolutely needs a second mid even if it's pulled out of the low slots. The ship has to be able to tackle in some capacity. The added armor amount bonus more than makes up for lost low-slow so it can scram/warp-dis. The Vengeance at least should have more damage with em rockets ffs. === Vuoto's ideas aren't that great and mix up racial and chassis specialities: ECM is Caldari, not Amarr. Use a Kitsune if you want boosted ecm on a T2 ship. Web Str... this should be Minmatar for Hyena, Huginn, Rapier Warp Jam Range... Keres Tracking Disruptor on Hawk? overpower much? Also, TD is amarrian.
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.07.17 00:29:00 - [280] There's a lot of very silly suggestions in this thread. Originally by: Vuoto HAWK: 5% to tracking disruptor Originally by: Flaming Butterfly Hawk: 5% kinetic damage + 5% small hybrid turret damage (5 high; 3 turret/3 launcher reconfig) Why do you hate my poor little hawk so much that you want to give it a split weapons system? Originally by: Various People ROF bonus to keep it in line with the cerberus This would only work if you increased the clip size of rocket launchers, you often find yourself reloading mid fight as it is. The hawk's problem is DPS and slot layout - 5% missile damage would keep it in line with the kestrel but more importantly it's a bonus that the ship desperately needs and won't make it overpowered. 4 mids for an active shield tank is pretty laughable too, I've seen many medium shield extender hawk fits and it should ring alarm bells that in thread after thread PVPers post fits that recommend you ignore the active tank bonus. Swapping a low to a mid would cure the problem. If the slot layout can't be changed then move the boost bonus to a 5% resist bonus, drop the shield recharge rate slightly and adjust the CPU / PG so that it can take a passive tank. I've been posting in hawk threads for nearly 3 years now during which time i've changed career, bought my first flat and acquired my first grey hairs yet the same problems with the hawk get discussed time and time again without any action from CCP.....no wait......I forgot.....they gave it spinny bits and borked rockets. Please CCP fix the hawk otherwise many years from now i'll end up as a senile old man in a care home confusing the nurses by asking for one more mid slot to fit a web. _________________________________________________ Lifeboat ----> + Human

Trinity Nova Amarr Unaccompanied Souls	Posted - 2009.07.18 12:23:00 - [281] Halfway down on the 2ND page is unacceptable. CCP let's fix this. Winter release isn't asking to much. Solo Corp: Unaccompanied Souls
Foolish Bob Caldari FireTech In Tea We Trust	Posted - 2009.07.18 23:24:00 - [282] Originally by: Wang Jing Foolish Bob you sexually assaulted my Jaguar a few weeks ago in 0.0 :( when and where? We sexually assault a lot of people and not always when we mean to - it all starts to blur after a while =P also seconding the awesome-ness of AF gangs, but just coz they rock doesn't mean that they're perfect, or that they can't be improved without attracting the nerf-bat - which as Wang will attest is my primary fear in this endeavour. I think it's totally possible, hence my support. ----------- I am me. I am not the corp I've joined nor the alliance I fly in. I'm also not a unique and special snowflake. Everything I say should be taken in that context.
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.07.19 07:10:00 - [283] Originally by: Foolish Bob when and where? We sexually assault a lot of people and not always when we mean to - it all starts to blur after a while =P also seconding the awesome-ness of AF gangs, but just coz they rock doesn't mean that they're perfect, or that they can't be improved without attracting the nerf-bat - which as Wang will attest is my primary fear in this endeavour. I think it's totally possible, hence my support. About a month ago in M-MD31. Was on my main mind you I was coming back from a pro solo roam (read: getting lost and running around terrified).
Rissa T Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.20 02:14:00 - [284] Winter release!
Trinity Nova Amarr Unaccompanied Souls	Posted - 2009.07.21 01:26:00 - [285] Back to the top. PvP starter toon for sale http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1109164Solo Corp: Unaccomp
Maximus Trollus	Posted - 2009.07.23 07:24:00 - [286] yes !
Hooch Flux	Posted - 2009.07.23 08:31:00 - [287] Originally by: yani dumyat There's a lot of very silly suggestions in this thread. Originally by: Vuoto HAWK: 5% to tracking disruptor Originally by: Flaming Butterfly Hawk: 5% kinetic damage + 5% small hybrid turret damage (5 high; 3 turret/3 launcher reconfig) Why do you hate my poor little hawk so much that you want to give it a split weapons system? Originally by: Various People ROF bonus to keep it in line with the cerberus This would only work if you increased the clip size of rocket launchers, you often find yourself reloading mid fight as it is. The hawk's problem is DPS and slot layout - 5% missile damage would keep it in line with the kestrel but more importantly it's a bonus that the ship desperately needs and won't make it overpowered. 4 mids for an active shield tank is pretty laughable too, I've seen many medium shield extender hawk fits and it should ring alarm bells that in thread after thread PVPers post fits that recommend you ignore the active tank bonus. Swapping a low to a mid would cure the problem. If the slot layout can't be changed then move the boost bonus to a 5% resist bonus, drop the shield recharge rate slightly and adjust the CPU / PG so that it can take a passive tank. I've been posting in hawk threads for nearly 3 years now during which time i've changed career, bought my first flat and acquired my first grey hairs yet the same problems with the hawk get discussed time and time again without any action from CCP.....no wait......I forgot.....they gave it spinny bits and borked rockets. Please CCP fix the hawk otherwise many years from now i'll end up as a senile old man in a care home confusing the nurses by asking for one more mid slot to fit a web. All the Hawk really needs is a ROF bonus... I actually agree with the clip size issue but I think that should be left alone for balance. With 4 T2 Standard missile launchers a T2 BCU you can melt most T1 Frigs and Destroyers without having to reload. Why anyone would want to split weapons or give a bonus to TD makes no sense to me! I say prep for dustoff, nuke the site from orbit... Only way to be sure!
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.07.23 15:43:00 - [288] Originally by: Hooch Flux (Edit: I use as a long/med range damage while someone tackles.) Thank you for demonstrating my point so well. An AF that requires someone else to tackle for it and does 126dps even with max skills, 2 bcu's and a 75mm rail in the utility slot...oh wait...you can't fit all that so you'll be down to about 100dps but only when the railgun gets into range. I can do similar dps in a crow and be considerably more useful to my gang. As someone who uses the light missile setup what do you do with the last high slot and how the hell do you cram a MWD and active tank on there? Arguably 88 missile dps is ok given that it hits out to 60km with CN bloodclaw and rockets are a whole separate quagmire so if we ignore the dps and say that the hawk is meant to be a nuggets tough active tank to tackle with...the fitting process goes something like this: MWD...check Scram...check damage control....check EM resist rigs....check Small shield Booster....check hmm, cap only lasts 35 seconds Nos....check hmm, up to 55 seconds cap so at most 30 seconds of cap to shield boost with after burning the mwd to get into range. Small cap booster....check So that's all four mids gone and we've got 6,292 ehp with a sustained defense of 81, surely this is better than the faster, gankier jaguar? Nope. My dual MSE jag with scram and mwd has 10,853ehp so it would take the hawk 56.3 seconds to make up the ehp difference and way longer if we factor in the 52 sustained defense of the jag, certainly more time than it would take the jag to kill the hawk. Then there's the ishkur with 73 sustained defense and 235 dps. The hawk can offer gallente pilots 8 more sustained dps if they're willing to live with less than half the dps If we now bring rockets into the equation i need a web on my hawk too so there goes the cap booster and you can forget about ever pulsing your mwd during a fight or getting into tackle range of a neut cruiser or generally being useful in any way. Please move one slot to a mid and fix rockets. The hawk will still be sub par but would at least be useable.
Hooch Flux Caldari	Posted - 2009.07.23 16:19:00 - [289] Originally by: yani dumyat Originally by: Hooch Flux (Edit: I use as a long/med range damage while someone tackles.) Thank you for demonstrating my point so well. An AF that requires someone else to tackle for it and does 126dps even with max skills, 2 bcu's and a 75mm rail in the utility slot...oh wait...you can't fit all that so you'll be down to about 100dps but only when the railgun gets into range. I can do similar dps in a crow and be considerably more useful to my gang. As someone who uses the light missile setup what do you do with the last high slot and how the hell do you cram a MWD and active tank on there? Arguably 88 missile dps is ok given that it hits out to 60km with CN bloodclaw and rockets are a whole separate quagmire so if we ignore the dps and say that the hawk is meant to be a nuggets tough active tank to tackle with...the fitting process goes something like this: MWD...check Scram...check damage control....check EM resist rigs....check Small shield Booster....check hmm, cap only lasts 35 seconds Nos....check hmm, up to 55 seconds cap so at most 30 seconds of cap to shield boost with after burning the mwd to get into range. Small cap booster....check So that's all four mids gone and we've got 6,292 ehp with a sustained defense of 81, surely this is better than the faster, gankier jaguar? Nope. My dual MSE jag with scram and mwd has 10,853ehp so it would take the hawk 56.3 seconds to make up the ehp difference and way longer if we factor in the 52 sustained defense of the jag, certainly more time than it would take the jag to kill the hawk. Then there's the ishkur with 73 sustained defense and 235 dps. The hawk can offer gallente pilots 8 more sustained dps if they're willing to live with less than half the dps If we now bring rockets into the equation i need a web on my hawk too so there goes the cap booster and you can forget about ever pulsing your mwd during a fight or getting into tackle range of a neut cruiser or generally being useful in any way. Please move one slot to a mid and fix rockets. The hawk will still be sub par but would at least be useable. We're using two completly diferent fitting philosophies for the same ship, you seem to be going for a close in heavy tackler while I am just sitting at range and using volley damage. I fit a AB to mine and run it in a small gang. Just seemed to be the way it was disigned to me, to do what your doing I would just fly a Jag or a Wolf. I'll try your fitting later and see how it goes.
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.07.23 21:54:00 - [290] Myself and everyone else who has asked for changes to the hawk are idiots because we missed something that should be blindingly obvious - THE HAWK IS MISSING A SLOT Vengance (4 Highs) 43PG / 160cpu (tackle) Retribution (5 highs) 56PG / 125CPU (DPS) Ishkur (4 highs) 42PG / 155CPU (tackle + DPS) Enyo (5 highs) 50PG / 145CPU (DPS) Jaguar (4 highs) 43PG / 160CPU (tackle) Wolf (5 highs) 48PG / 125CPU (DPS) Hawk (5 highs) 42PG / 180CPU (tackle) Harpy (5 highs) 50PG / 175CPU (DPS) All the tackle AF's have 4 high slots with 3 primary weapon hardpoints and a utility high except for the two rocket ships - hawk and vengeance. I assume this is because rockets do so little DPS that you need 4 of them to get anywhere close to the DPS of 3 close range turrets. The result is that the hawk has one less mid / low slot than the other tackle AF's because it's been moved to a high slot but the extra high is only compensating for low rocket DPS. The vengeance has been robbed of a bonus instead of a mid slot. It is the only tackle AF with 4 hardpoints for its primary weapons system and therefore has no utility high, this has been compensated for by giving it a cap bonus equivalent to running a nos. Here's a crazy idea - If rocket ships need 4 launchers to do the same job as 3 turrets then give them an extra slot.

yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.07.23 22:18:00 - [291] Originally by: Hooch Flux I'll try your fitting later and see how it goes I'll warn you now that my rocket fitting sucks which is kinda the point i'm trying to make
Sexual Healing Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.07.25 02:02:00 - [292] winter
Daquaris Dreams of Desolation Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.07.25 13:46:00 - [293] Yep.
Grawen	Posted - 2009.07.25 14:34:00 - [294] +1
Moloch Baal Amarr	Posted - 2009.07.27 11:05:00 - [295] bringing this thread back where it belongs
Demus Spark	Posted - 2009.07.28 02:24:00 - [296] Supported! AFs definitely deserve 4th bonuses! There's hardly any reason why they should not have it. Some of the ships' bonuses need careful thinking though, one example being the Harpy. If you boost it's sniping prowess with damage bonus, it will start to seriously melt faces with blasters. Tracking bonus will also make it an Enyo with bigger buffer, shield regen and faster speed (should the Enyo sport 400mm and even with 200mm Harpy seems to have 1m/s faster speed with AB!). Oh and it will also have a longer optimal range, meaning that with careful piloting you can keep the hit quality bonus of optimal range while Enyo will drop to falloff. I like many of the ideas posted here except things that force the ships to specialize a lot, like bonuses to scrambler&disruptor range for the Jaguar (I want to keep my ACs!) In case you are not very interested about the Jaguar/Minmatar in general or the Enyo, Im afraid there's nothing else here for you to read. Others, please continue As a Jaguar pilot, Id definitely want to see a tracking bonus. Even though, as I use 125mm, my tracking tends to be pretty much just what's needed. When using orbit 500m with AB, the range tends to be around 1600-2000 meters and transversal around 0.4 and the 125mm's tracking is almost 0.5. But it would still help when dealing with the drone cruisers, making them atleast a little bit easier to tackle for a while untill help arrives. Enyo definitely needs something too to make it something else than an assault ship for drone-challenged gallente pilots. Do take into account though that the Enyo's optimal+falloff is about the same as the Jaguar's currently (both almost reaching to overloaded scrambler's range). What this means is that, should the falloff bonus be added, Enyo would become a... hmm, a 'rather hard' opponent for the Jaguar. As a user of active+magic tanked Jaguar I feel that there might still be a chance to beat the Enyo though, but Im afraid almost everyone uses the 2xMSE setup . Jaguar can still outrun an afterburner Enyo though and MWD+Disruptor setup is quite hard to support with already heavily cap-dependant ship. (Not that I have any field experience with Enyo, other than a few fights against it). And please, PLEASE swap the bonuses between Wolf and Jaguar, or atleast give The Jag falloff and let the Wolf keep falloff bonus as well (sorry arty users, but I have my reasons that Ill state next). As the Thrasher's already an insanely effective small arty platfrom and optimal bonus is totally worthless with ACs on the Jaguar, there arent too many reasons for the optimal bonus on the jag in the first place. Sure it can tank better than a destroyer with smaller sig radius against people shooting with bigger guns from far away. Sure, it's faster (while still less agile!) than the thrasher. But what happens when you are caught by a fast close range tackler? You have a very expensive (for a frig) ship that deals a fraction of the destroyer's damage while tanking only a little bit better than said destroyer. What this means is that the arty Jaguar is worse in just about everything except tanking sniper battleships and such. On top of that you have the lovely price difference that a thrasher and a jaguar have . Currently it really feels like the Jaguar is a t2 ship with only 2 bonuses which is ridiculous. Sorry about the long post (Im very enthusiastic about The Jag )I hope atleast some of you had the endurance to read the whole wall of text.
Wang Jing	Posted - 2009.07.28 20:53:00 - [297] Long posts are very much appreciated, if people can't take 2 minutes to read someone elses thoughts they shouldn't be on (a more serious part of) the forums
Kailen Thorn Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.28 21:33:00 - [298] supported
N Solarz Chaos Reborn	Posted - 2009.07.30 05:33:00 - [299] supported
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.30 12:27:00 - [300] Fix rockets: Hawk and Vengance will be better. (aslo lol active tank rep bonus on a frig) As for more bonuses for my already awesome Harpy? Sure why not, might as well use it to blow **** up faster :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html

Xianbei	Posted - 2009.07.30 21:06:00 - [301] Originally by: Tortugan Additionally: AFs are harder to hit than cruisers, therefore tank better by default AFs have ridiculously high resistances- it's not hard to get >80% across the board, which means excellent active tanks, and ridiculously good remote rep (1 large remote rep on an 80% resistance tanks 426 DPS- not even factoring in the size of the ship) AFs cost a fraction of the price of T2 ships of other classes- a Vengeance costs literally 1/7th the cost of a Zealot in Jita, and take about 1/3 the time to skill into A competent AF pilot will engage T2 cruisers, and leave if the fight doesn't go their way- I've engaged Pilgrims, Ishtars, Deimos', to name a few in my AF Every AF has a role- but no AF has every role 1. er, they are frigates, they are supposed to. including this in the list is a joke. 2. fine, lower the resistances a bit 3. lol using the vengeance as a price comparison. the least used AF. check ishkur prices lately ? 4. this is true for any ship 5. again, not an argument against or for, just a statement true for any ship your arguments are weak except perhaps the resistances t2 ships have 4 bonuses, except AF. fix it plz CCP. lower resistances to placate the whiners if you must.
Stil Harkonnen	Posted - 2009.07.31 01:56:00 - [302]
N Solarz Caldari Chaos Reborn	Posted - 2009.07.31 06:29:00 - [303] /me wants to see an ishkur with scram range bonus. inties would sh** their pants.
N Solarz Caldari Chaos Reborn	Posted - 2009.07.31 06:39:00 - [304] /me wants to see an ishkur with scram range bonus. inties would sh** their pants.
Tortugan F9X	Posted - 2009.07.31 08:52:00 - [305] Originally by: Xianbei Originally by: Tortugan Additionally: AFs are harder to hit than cruisers, therefore tank better by default AFs have ridiculously high resistances- it's not hard to get >80% across the board, which means excellent active tanks, and ridiculously good remote rep (1 large remote rep on an 80% resistance tanks 426 DPS- not even factoring in the size of the ship) AFs cost a fraction of the price of T2 ships of other classes- a Vengeance costs literally 1/7th the cost of a Zealot in Jita, and take about 1/3 the time to skill into A competent AF pilot will engage T2 cruisers, and leave if the fight doesn't go their way- I've engaged Pilgrims, Ishtars, Deimos', to name a few in my AF Every AF has a role- but no AF has every role 1. er, they are frigates, they are supposed to. including this in the list is a joke. 2. fine, lower the resistances a bit 3. lol using the vengeance as a price comparison. the least used AF. check ishkur prices lately ? 4. this is true for any ship 5. again, not an argument against or for, just a statement true for any ship your arguments are weak except perhaps the resistances t2 ships have 4 bonuses, except AF. fix it plz CCP. lower resistances to placate the whiners if you must. Sorry- I thought all you fellas were the 'whiners' asking for a boost ^.^ So you're basically complaining that your AF is too cheap? I fly ishkurs, and I can attest that I have never paid too much for one. As for vengeances- it's because so many people are caught up in the 'BOOST ROCKETS CLRLY THEY ARE BROKEN' bandwagon to realize that rockets aren't meant to put out a ****ton of DPS like blasters- they're meant to be an anti-frigate platform- which they do amazingly well as. If you're dumb enough to get in blaster range of an ishkur, then you deserve to lose your venge. Kill his drones, then watch his tank melt to your rockets. Including that AFs are hard to hit is by no means a joke- it's an incredible tool, and acts as a gigantic boost to their survivability and versatility. Hence #5- you can engage anything and leave if it goes sour, whereas you couldn't do it as easily in a cruiser or bigger, since it's too easy to get scrammed/webbed if the other pilot knows what they're doing. ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard
Lord Cath	Posted - 2009.07.31 10:56:00 - [306] by now we know you dont agree with AF's getting a 4th bonus Tortugan.
The Djego Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.31 11:23:00 - [307] People should stop feeding the troll. You are not super pro by killing a lonly BS in a AF, the target simply was a noob or pve fitted. If you doubt this you can check my killmails for AFs that tryed to solo my Mega(you don¦t even need drones for them, the key is simply a neut). RR works with any kind of ship, and better for bigger ships since the got more buffer. Any kind of ship is effective when you bring bigger numbers. By the ability to multitackle bigger ships are more effective since they can applay more DPS and got more HP. Any kind of sig/speed tank of a frig becomes next to useless if you have several webs on them anyway(or 10-20 Drones). If you don¦t enter web range you will get preaty mutch owned by anything since you lack the buffer and at 20km you are a easy target, even for BS guns. To AFs actualy yes they could need a the 4. Bonus to make them a more interesting ship class. Wolf, Enyo, Harpy, Retrebution should have a extra damage bonus. They are ok in gangs to take down ceptors(a Destroyer also performs well here with the drawback of beeing a better target for bigger ships). With this they also do better vs bigger targets like cruisers since the damage diffrence wouldn¦t be this big anymore giving them a better chance to take them down before drones eaten thrue your tank or you run into serious cap issues(even without beeing neuted). Jaguar, Ishkur, Hawk, Vengance should have another bonus that helps them with tackling\tanking. 5% Signature radius reduction or 5% speed per level would be good, since it helps the ship to reduce incomming damage and works with MWD and AB. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
SuiJuris	Posted - 2009.07.31 14:31:00 - [308] Edited by: SuiJuris on 31/07/2009 14:31:52 Seriously Tortugan, Quit trying to say rockets are not broken, Its not that we want Blaster DPS out of them. Its that for the fitting reqs they should ATLEAST outdamage 3 unbonused Autocannons, but they fail to even do that. Just about anything with a SAR II fitted can tank a Vengeance. They are broken, Sure they shoot out to 10km, but so do small pulse lasers, Also they are the only small turret / missile launcher that on average will have to reload before killing a frigate. As for Djego, Giving the Vengeance ANOTHER tanking bonus would be a bit overpowered those things tank like champs. --- It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one."
Discrodia Guardian Legion SCUM.	Posted - 2009.07.31 14:37:00 - [309] ___________________________________________ I can see my house from here! It's just... err.... you know, a few galaxies over. But I swear it's there!
Tortugan F9X	Posted - 2009.08.01 04:22:00 - [310] Let me ask you this question, then, supporters: If a battleship putting multiple webs & a point on an AF shouldn't be able to kill the thing, what should? FFS it's a frigate- it takes 2 weeks to train for a full T2 fit, and about 50m isk to fit WITH RIGS. You think they should be capable of taking out anti-AF BS? ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard

Tortugan F9X	Posted - 2009.08.01 04:26:00 - [311] As for rockets- again, you're looking at it on paper. GL fighting against a venge with those small ACs of yours- last time I checked they do a bit less DPS at 20km. ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard
Trinity Nova Amarr Unaccompanied Souls	Posted - 2009.08.01 13:12:00 - [312] Originally by: Tortugan Let me ask you this question, then, supporters: If a battleship putting multiple webs & a point on an AF shouldn't be able to kill the thing, what should? FFS it's a frigate- it takes 2 weeks to train for a full T2 fit, and about 50m isk to fit WITH RIGS. You think they should be capable of taking out anti-AF BS? Why do you have to be an idiot and a r3tard? Buy Me Solo Corp
ilmon On The Cloth	Posted - 2009.08.01 13:56:00 - [313]
ArcticPrism	Posted - 2009.08.03 02:05:00 - [314] Originally by: Tortugan Let me ask you this question, then, supporters: If a battleship putting multiple webs & a point on an AF shouldn't be able to kill the thing, what should? FFS it's a frigate- it takes 2 weeks to train for a full T2 fit, and about 50m isk to fit WITH RIGS. You think they should be capable of taking out anti-AF BS? What do you describe an anti-AF BS as? Dual web + point is too vague.
Tortugan F9X	Posted - 2009.08.03 03:57:00 - [315] Originally by: ArcticPrism Originally by: Tortugan Let me ask you this question, then, supporters: If a battleship putting multiple webs & a point on an AF shouldn't be able to kill the thing, what should? FFS it's a frigate- it takes 2 weeks to train for a full T2 fit, and about 50m isk to fit WITH RIGS. You think they should be capable of taking out anti-AF BS? What do you describe an anti-AF BS as? Dual web + point is too vague. I'm asking you- supporters have been implying that AFs suck because a battleship fit to hit an AF can kill it- what the hell is wrong with a specifically fit battleship that takes months to properly train into, and at least 3 times as much to fit being able to kill a frigate you can train into in 2 weeks? ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard
Youssef Daunch SAE Academy	Posted - 2009.08.03 05:31:00 - [316] Supported.
Alekseyev Karrde Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.08.03 07:42:00 - [317] tortugan... I've not checked this thread in like weeks and you're still here droning on and regurgitating the same debunked objections for no discernable purpose other than to have something to do while you camp the jita undock. C+P/COAD/General--->that way --- Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam
Bomberlocks	Posted - 2009.08.03 09:12:00 - [318] Yes, most definitely yes. In almost all classes, be it shield or armor, missile or turret, ab or mwd, the AFs suffer from being too weak for their price. Granted, the rigs change in the coming 1.5 patch will improve things, but they'll also improve things for the target, i.e. cruisers and t1 frigs will also have access to cheaper rigs. In fact after tzhe rigs patch t1 frigs will be even closer to t2 AFs and given that EVE is very much a rock/paper/scissors type of game where you can never fit an absolute winning combo, t2 AFs will be running an even greater danger against t1 frigs, since t1 frigs will as often as not motivated to fit gank rigs since they cost little and t2 AFs will be motivated to fit tank rigs to protect their investment. Or at least that's the way I see it. EVE seems to be a game where you win by playing to your strengths and lose by playing to your weaknesses, i.e. the whole risk vs. reward thing. Put in those terms, t2 AFs are a big risk for the rewards they promise.
Unfamed II Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.08.03 11:02:00 - [319] Jag boost? Gief! Originally by: Sandslinger of CA So this wasn't a straightoff logoffski from our point of view, rather a tactical manoeuvre
Seppo Sankari	Posted - 2009.08.03 11:04:00 - [320] This deserves the authentic Seal of Seppo, the biggest sign of approval!

Dark Threat	Posted - 2009.08.03 15:37:00 - [321] agreed
ArcticPrism	Posted - 2009.08.03 17:54:00 - [322] Originally by: Tortugan Originally by: ArcticPrism Originally by: Tortugan Let me ask you this question, then, supporters: If a battleship putting multiple webs & a point on an AF shouldn't be able to kill the thing, what should? FFS it's a frigate- it takes 2 weeks to train for a full T2 fit, and about 50m isk to fit WITH RIGS. You think they should be capable of taking out anti-AF BS? What do you describe an anti-AF BS as? Dual web + point is too vague. I'm asking you- supporters have been implying that AFs suck because a battleship fit to hit an AF can kill it- what the hell is wrong with a specifically fit battleship that takes months to properly train into, and at least 3 times as much to fit being able to kill a frigate you can train into in 2 weeks? Any battleship should be able to take down an AF if fitted for doing so. If you have some neuts +dual web and can turn off mwd/afterburner you should be able to hurt them pretty well. Warp scrambler might work well too seeing as nearly all frigates have mwd equipped. I would say you'd have better success with a cruiser/battlecruiser for destroying AFs though. They're faster and guns don't quite suck as much at tracking. I don't see any problem with that.
Xorth Adimus The Perfect Storm Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.08.03 20:17:00 - [323] Originally by: Wang Jing Assault Ships (Assault Frigates) are currently the only T2 ships which do not receive 4 bonuses. It is only fair that this is addressed, and a lot of the ships in this class are in desperate need of another bonus: Hawk and Vengeance: These need a second damage bonus, as they are currently outdamaged by the kestrel, a T1 frigate, and rockets in general give very poor performance for their fitting requirements. It is increasingly common for the vengeance to be fitted with blasters or lasers as even without bonuses they will outperform rockets. This is surely a sign something needs to be done. Wolf and Jaguar: Given the concept of minmatar ships as being fast moving, outmanouevering their opponents and dancing around them, the lack of a tracking bonus on these ships is absurd. Given that their T1 counterpart, the infamous Rifter, receives this bonus, it is quite clear that it is necessary for the role they are most often required to perform; engaging the enemy in a tight orbit, using their superior speed to avoid the guns of a larger foe. The other ships in this class, whilst having no glaring flaws, are still in need of help. For example, it is worrying when Gallente pilots in need of a high dps, take no prisoners blaster using frigate will pick an interceptor, the Taranis, over an assault frigate, the Enyo, everytime. In my view that is indicative of a serious problem with assault frigates, and I believe a 4th bonus will justify the cost of these ships and make them perform the way they should. Agreed tracking/explosive velocity bonus needed.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.05 10:22:00 - [324] Originally by: SuiJuris As for Djego, Giving the Vengeance ANOTHER tanking bonus would be a bit overpowered those things tank like champs. Well what do you think would be the best if you want to bring a heavy tackling Frig instead of a fast one(Ceptor)? The Ceptor uses his speed and a low sig to envade damage(while the higher speed also makes him more likely to pin a target down). Im not intending to make it as survivealbe as a Ceptor(for pure Sig/Speed tank) but a bit stronger in this areas to give the ship a better performance in tackling by making it easier to stay under the guns. This wouldn¦t change mutch in the end if you get neuted, focused by a droneswarm or webed with multiple webs. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
SuiJuris	Posted - 2009.08.05 15:17:00 - [325] I know what your saying, but I think the Vengeance Very strongly needs a second damage bonus, I think it should get a ROF bonus for Rockets to make it into a little Sacrilege, Combine that with actually fixing rockets and it would be a very nice little ship. It would be nice if the Venge could go about 3kms though, but then your trying to muscle the jag and wolf out of there niche. --- It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one."
Razel Krieg	Posted - 2009.08.05 17:12:00 - [326] supported
Tenshi Sako	Posted - 2009.08.10 15:15:00 - [327] gief
pHenomena1337	Posted - 2009.08.10 21:16:00 - [328] supported my enyo waits for its 5% RoF bonus ---------------------------------------------
Kjar Achran	Posted - 2009.08.13 10:43:00 - [329] bringing the thread back where it belongs
Kiri Serrensun	Posted - 2009.08.13 16:05:00 - [330] Originally by: Lord Cath by now we know you dont agree with AF's getting a 4th bonus Tortugan. Let's not jump to conclusions here.

Moloch Baal Amarr	Posted - 2009.08.18 15:35:00 - [331] lets keep this thread going
Tortugan F9X	Posted - 2009.08.18 17:14:00 - [332] Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde tortugan... I've not checked this thread in like weeks and you're still here droning on and regurgitating the same debunked objections for no discernable purpose other than to have something to do while you camp the jita undock. C+P/COAD/General--->that way So Aleks- what do you think a reasonable counter to an AF should be? ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard
OrcephDrake	Posted - 2009.09.10 07:23:00 - [333] Totally for supporting more bonuses for T2 frigs. My Hawk is being out DPSed by a tech1 ship in EFT WITH all LVL5 skills and the other one with basic noob skills. sigh Why even bother getting it except for the range bonus. Even that isnt that great.
Plug You	Posted - 2009.09.10 10:01:00 - [334] assault frigates lacking 4th bonus
Thenoran Pelican.	Posted - 2009.09.10 12:50:00 - [335] It's not a matter of people agreeing or disagreeing even, it's part of status quo. All T2 ships get 4 bonuses and Assault Frigates are T2 ships and should thus get their 4th bonus. Originally the Assault Frigates' 4th bonus was the racial resist, which is now built into the hull like ALL other T2 ships. However, they have yet to recieve their new 4th bonus. Supported all the way as AFs not having a 4th bonus is breaking the current T2 ship standards. ------------------------ Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2009.09.10 13:51:00 - [336] Supported. There is no reason to have one bonus removed from the "frigate" bonuses. For example, Incursus +10% small hybrid falloff, +5% small hybrid damage per frigate level - becomes Enyo +5% small hybrid damage per frigate level. WTF?!
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.10 21:34:00 - [337] Originally by: Wang Jing Assault Ships (Assault Frigates) are currently the only T2 ships which do not receive 4 bonuses. It is only fair that this is addressed, and a lot of the ships in this class are in desperate need of another bonus: Hawk and Vengeance: These need a second damage bonus, as they are currently outdamaged by the kestrel, a T1 frigate, and rockets in general give very poor performance for their fitting requirements. It is increasingly common for the vengeance to be fitted with blasters or lasers as even without bonuses they will outperform rockets. This is surely a sign something needs to be done. Wolf and Jaguar: Given the concept of minmatar ships as being fast moving, outmanouevering their opponents and dancing around them, the lack of a tracking bonus on these ships is absurd. Given that their T1 counterpart, the infamous Rifter, receives this bonus, it is quite clear that it is necessary for the role they are most often required to perform; engaging the enemy in a tight orbit, using their superior speed to avoid the guns of a larger foe. The other ships in this class, whilst having no glaring flaws, are still in need of help. For example, it is worrying when Gallente pilots in need of a high dps, take no prisoners blaster using frigate will pick an interceptor, the Taranis, over an assault frigate, the Enyo, everytime. In my view that is indicative of a serious problem with assault frigates, and I believe a 4th bonus will justify the cost of these ships and make them perform the way they should. Supported -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Sith LordX	Posted - 2009.09.10 21:48:00 - [338] Edited by: Sith LordX on 10/09/2009 21:54:16 Edited by: Sith LordX on 10/09/2009 21:52:24 +1 Yeah lets get enough people on here to make CCP give the 4th bonus once and for all. Seriously T2 frigs are too fragile to BS neuts + light drones. BS's shouldn't be able to use light drones anyways. I just insta pop each time I fight a BS, cus I get caped out and light droned to death. T2 AF's aren't faction ships, faction ships get 3 bonuses. T2 get 4 bonuses.
Zastrow J	Posted - 2009.09.10 22:14:00 - [339] Edited by: Zastrow J on 10/09/2009 22:16:12 in our little chit chat with ccp on this they told us the reason that ass frigs only have 3 boners is because the damage resistance that is innate to the hull was supposed to be the 4th bonus. Yet they did agree that ass frigs should be looked at again, and I personally suggested an afterburner speed bonus anyways i know this isnt a resolution or anything i just want you guys to know it was on the agenda and was duly raised as an issue
xOm3gAx Stain of Mind	Posted - 2009.09.11 01:03:00 - [340] Edited by: xOm3gAx on 11/09/2009 01:04:03 I support this issue, and suggest; Ishkur: 5% drone damage/hp per level Enyo: 5% hybrid ROF per level Harpy: 5% hybrid ROF per level Hawk: 5% Missle ROF per level Retribution: 5% Laser ROF per level Vengeance: 5% rocket ROF per level Jaguar/wolf: 5% proj ROF per level Edit: thanks for the update Zastrow Originally by: CCP Abraxas Her boyfriend's way hot, too; tall and tanned. And I say this as a very hetero male who doesn't ever dream of the man on cold, dark nights. Originally by: CCP Abathur /thread. [

Undertow Latheus Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2009.09.11 02:23:00 - [341] Originally by: The Monkeysphere They do have 4 bonuses. The fourth one is hidden, that's all. It used to be public but people kept whining about the apparently bad bonus. A lot of people are very bad at this game. ....Well then by that logic, AF's are the only t2 ships that only have 4 bonuses, and hacs, recons, cs's, etc. have 5 bonuses (5th being hidden, thats all) Give assault frigs their missing 4th (or 5th :P ) bonus! :)
Roemy Schneider Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2009.09.11 06:35:00 - [342] Originally by: The Monkeysphere They do have 4 bonuses. The fourth one is hidden, that's all. It used to be public but people kept whining about the apparently bad bonus. A lot of people are very bad at this game. technically this but yeah, still supported however, a rocket boost should come first, then those utilizing them can get a range bonus or something - putting the gist back into logistics
Garr Anders Thukk U	Posted - 2009.09.11 06:55:00 - [343] +1 ----- Garr Anders "The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
Reef Skywalker	Posted - 2009.09.11 09:31:00 - [344] /signed
Dhei'Nja QUANTUM NOMAD	Posted - 2009.09.11 12:26:00 - [345] Edited by: Dhei''Nja on 11/09/2009 12:30:34 Quote: Jaguar/wolf: 5% proj ROF per level I don't particularly care what gets done to the other AF's but I do care about the Jaguar and Wolf. If everything is getting a ROF bonus then fine, we're simply adding DPS and not addressing specific issues. I don't want my AC's firing faster, I just want them to hit better, sure I can drop my speed in orbit essentially giving up the only thing a minnie AF has going for it. And please, it's been requested for many months now, swap the optimal/falloff bonuses already.
cBOLTSON SCUM. ACADEMY SCUM.	Posted - 2009.09.11 12:27:00 - [346] Fully supported. The amarr assault frigs , especially the one that lacks midslots, are really bad. Also I love my harpy, some extra ship speed / tracking is needed. But not just that, like wang says, there the only t2 ships that dont recieve 4 bonuses. And you have to remeber, the assault frig is quite a lot of peoples first taste of t2 ships, at least it was mine. So you want to let them leave the ship feeling it is actually well worth the extra iskies and training.
Kaydin Versailles	Posted - 2009.09.11 17:43:00 - [347]
Tohmu Blackwing	Posted - 2009.09.15 06:25:00 - [348] Originally by: Tortugan Quote: you didnt read any of the posts in this thread now did you In fact, I did. Did you? Quote: AFs have very specific roles, as do most T2 ships. Some are better at tanking, others are better at tackling, others are better at putting out solid DPS. I don't think it would be the end of the world if they got a buff, but I really don't think it's necessary. ^ Meaning, hell yes- it's possible to put out more DPS in a Kestrel than a Hawk, but does that mean that make a Kestrel a better ship? Honestly- LTFF (Learn To F***ing Fly) ships before whining for a buff. Yes, AFs are squishy and not easy ships to fly- but they're FRIGATES. The fact that I feel wholly comfortable engaging most T2 cruisers in my AF is a clear sign that if anything, AFs need a nerf- but quite frankly, they're fine where they are now. AFs take specialization to fly, and practice to fly well. Learn to choose your engagements, and take full advantage of your size and your tank. If you're getting popped too quick, it's because you're allowing yourself to be tracked- medium guns and larger should never hit you if you're orbiting at close range, and small drones can be killed, tanked, or outrun. If your target is tanking you, go after something smaller, and quit whining that your T2 Frigate can't kill a mission fit Battlecruiser. Honestly- you wonder why Eve has so many balance issues? It's because people like those supporting this thread cba to learn from their mistakes, and be creative- they'd rather just complain and blame CCP. Assault Frigs are fine. If you can't fly them well, that's your own damn problem. Ya lost me on this post, buddy. I didn't agree with you before, but now your just name calling and stroking your epeen and telling us what a bad, bad pilot you are and we should all just disregard our own experiences and fly something else, because YOU tell us we don't know what we are doing. For that matter, why don't we all just quit EVE and let you play by yourself, eh? I especially like the "AFs take specialization to fly..." comment. While I would agree completely with you on that point, it is your arrogance throughout your post that makes this just another "eyes roll into the back of the head, here he goes again" moment. I read your posts but ignored them based on the OVERWHELMING support in this thread, which also happened to fit with my own experiences. But you keep posting. You keep telling us how good you are, and how bad we all must be, and now you are name calling. Let it go, ok? It is pretty obvious that you are in a very small minority here, and now you are just using this thread to stroke your ego. You made your (very limited) constructive (read as: anecdotal) arguments 4 or 5 posts ago, now go away and find another thread to troll.
Alekseyev Karrde Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.09.15 06:42:00 - [349] The counters to an AF shouldnt change and wont change. Bringing them in line with all othet T2 shiptypes has little to do with anti AF tactic. Unless CCP gets very creative with the bonuses, the role of the AF wont change it'll just be able to do it right and be worth the expense. --- Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam
Tortugan Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.09.15 07:48:00 - [350] Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde The counters to an AF shouldnt change and wont change. Bringing them in line with all othet T2 shiptypes has little to do with anti AF tactic. Unless CCP gets very creative with the bonuses, the role of the AF wont change it'll just be able to do it right and be worth the expense. Indeed, AFs are clearly underpowerd, and are easy to kill. We should buff them more. /s :D

barvo 7th Space Cavalry	Posted - 2009.09.15 12:24:00 - [351] Supported
Auri Hella Downwind Trading Guild	Posted - 2009.09.15 19:30:00 - [352] I can honestly say I've never flown any AF in pvp except for a couple of fun/suicide ops, which should tell you all you need to know. Also make the Hawk less pathetic please.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.09.15 21:03:00 - [353] This thread is now over. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Holy Wanderer	Posted - 2009.09.16 03:25:00 - [354] I support this product.
Yon Krum The Knights Templar R.A.G.E	Posted - 2009.09.16 06:18:00 - [355] Originally by: Zastrow J Edited by: Zastrow J on 10/09/2009 22:16:12 in our little chit chat with ccp on this they told us the reason that ass frigs only have 3 boners is because the damage resistance that is innate to the hull was supposed to be the 4th bonus. Yet they did agree that ass frigs should be looked at again, and I personally suggested an afterburner speed bonus anyways i know this isnt a resolution or anything i just want you guys to know it was on the agenda and was duly raised as an issue The problem with this is simple, as I posted earlier in this thread as well: The other T2 ships, with the exception of the equally underwhelming EAS, get a total of *5* bonuses if you count their resistances that way. AF get 4. So, counting resistances does not make the problem go away. --Krum --Krum
Feffri SkyLoc Inc. The Ronin Brotherhood	Posted - 2009.09.17 19:20:00 - [356] Edited by: Feffri on 17/09/2009 19:20:57 I support this. Especially the retribution upgrade. It should have at least two mid slots if not 3. Take down a low slot and add the mid slot if it won't be balanced, if need be but only one mid is ridiculous.
Nekmet Awai	Posted - 2009.09.18 00:54:00 - [357] yer sure.
Lord Cath	Posted - 2009.09.18 07:31:00 - [358] Originally by: Feffri Edited by: Feffri on 17/09/2009 19:20:57 I support this. Especially the retribution upgrade. It should have at least two mid slots if not 3. Take down a low slot and add the mid slot if it won't be balanced, if need be but only one mid is ridiculous. this again since it seems to get lost in the 4th bonus (which i fully support in case of confusion) discussion.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.09.18 08:22:00 - [359] I kind of like the current Retribution. It has lots of damage, range and tank .. it has purpose. Would be awesome to have tackle but fear it would jump to the top of the pile in the same way the Zealot did with the 5th turret. Tackling Retributions would be immensely powerful. Game has evolved a lot lately and more options are available. Adding a bonus following the old scheme (tracking, damage, tank etc) is easy but uninspired and quite frankly boring. There is currently a push to add an AB bonus to all the Assault Frigates, which will likely end up invalidating all but three of them with the Jaguar being supreme against everything. A better role bonus for the class, which would benefit all of them, is to borrow the heat resistance bonus from the T3 hulls and perhaps add a bit .. AFs would gain speed, tank, damage and longevity without obsoleting any of them. Make them "special" (in a good way, not the Deliverance way). Until then this does not have my support.
Lord Cath	Posted - 2009.09.18 12:22:00 - [360] I kinda find it a pitty that the amarr have the choice between an AF which cannot tackle but does good damage or a heavy tackler that does no damage... just the mere fact that the retri has only 1 mid slot turns the amarr race into the race with the most inversatile AF roles around. For my playing style anyway.

Nishachara Special Operations Corp	Posted - 2009.09.18 12:24:00 - [361] Supported
Masquitar High House Of Shadows Republic Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.20 01:30:00 - [362] +1
Anargirou Fatal System Error Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2009.09.20 08:10:00 - [363] supported
Vakharn Du'Vekh	Posted - 2009.09.21 02:50:00 - [364] I agree completely with this topic.
Laedla Ququve	Posted - 2009.09.25 23:26:00 - [365]
Thunderpig	Posted - 2009.10.12 22:23:00 - [366] bumped and supported
Mynxee Minmatar Hellcats The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.10.13 01:53:00 - [367] It's only logical. Bump It! \| My Blog: Life in Low Sec
Mynxee Hellcats The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.10.13 01:59:00 - [368] It's only logical. Bump It! \| My Blog: Life in Low Sec
Khalen Veriz	Posted - 2009.10.13 06:24:00 - [369] Good Idea
Reverend Book	Posted - 2009.10.13 14:36:00 - [370] Supported

Sewer Urchin	Posted - 2009.10.13 19:16:00 - [371] +1
xLove2Cuddlex BOUNTY. HUNTER. MINING. EXSPLORATION. CORPORATION. HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2009.10.20 18:29:00 - [372] Keeping this near the top given CCP have been put off the AB bonus thing by all the whiners...
Nestor Laurenitis Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.10.20 19:06:00 - [373] Supported.
ZigZag Joe Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.21 01:17:00 - [374] this needs to be done, though with different bonuses than the OP proposed.
pHenomena1337	Posted - 2009.10.27 11:03:00 - [375] Bumping this topic because of the AB bonus removal. ---------------------------------------------
Bel'shamharoth	Posted - 2009.10.27 15:28:00 - [376] Supported -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not a fig plucker or a fig plucker's son, but I'll pluck figs till the fig plucking's done.
Ulstan	Posted - 2009.10.27 21:33:00 - [377] Not sure if I've supported this yet or not! All AF's need a 4th bonus, and the imbalances within the AF class need examining. Some AF's are great (Ishkur, jaguar) others are trash and in no situation worth flying (enyo, hawk). Retribution doesn't have enough mids to be a frigate anything, and the hawk does less damage than its T1 hull! Hopefully bonuses of varying power could be used to bring the AF class balance back in line.
Tray LiSans	Posted - 2009.10.31 09:33:00 - [378] Bumping for the love of my little assault ships.
Cendre Chevaliers de la Croix Du Sud	Posted - 2009.11.02 01:25:00 - [379]
Don Pellegrino	Posted - 2009.11.02 02:07:00 - [380]

Alfons Richthofen Die Luftwaffe	Posted - 2009.11.02 10:37:00 - [381] Originally by: Wang Jing Hawk and Vengeance: These need a second damage bonus, as they are currently outdamaged by the kestrel, a T1 frigate, and rockets in general give very poor performance for their fitting requirements. It is increasingly common for the vengeance to be fitted with blasters or lasers as even without bonuses they will outperform rockets. This is surely a sign something needs to be done. My name is Alfons and I fit my Vengeance with hybrids. "Hey Alfons!" /wrists
Vuoto	Posted - 2009.11.03 12:29:00 - [382] THE fact is: a t2 AF cost is around 40 millions and it can be beated by a 15-20 millions t1 cruiser... and if we put on plate that to fly an assault you need more skills that a t1 cruiser and that the assault should be a "full combat" ships that's really nosense. CCP if 75% on afterburner is too much do something else but just do something for a ship class which also veteran players had to fly with honour. By the way i think the 75% in speed was a GREAT idea because an assault had to entering in battle without considering BS BC classes, flying around seeking for other AF or Inty be carefull to Interdictors, destroyers, maybe cruisers and webbers. Now the AF is the primary target in a fleet because is the easiest ship to take down, even BS lock and fire at you! and when you said ( CCP ) using the speed as a way to fight you also said you are not considering frigates as a positive appoach to a fight from the moment you said that(also giving to all minmatars ships the advantage to choose the range where to fight but that's not real a great problem). Giving a speed boost to AF or frigate in general is not just a favor you do to us but it will create a BETTER combat! where ships classes will sit perfectly in their ROLE.
Tomarrion Altor Special Operations Corp	Posted - 2009.11.03 17:09:00 - [383] Supported
Vuoto	Posted - 2009.11.04 11:25:00 - [384] Originally by: Vuoto THE fact is: a t2 AF cost is around 40 millions and it can be beated by a 15-20 millions t1 cruiser... and if we put on plate that to fly an assault you need more skills that a t1 cruiser and that the assault should be a "full combat" ships that's really nosense. CCP if 75% on afterburner is too much do something else but just do something for a ship class which also veteran players had to fly with honour. By the way i think the 75% in speed was a GREAT idea because an assault had to entering in battle without considering BS BC classes, flying around seeking for other AF or Inty be carefull to Interdictors, destroyers, maybe cruisers and webbers. Now the AF is the primary target in a fleet because is the easiest ship to take down, even BS lock and fire at you! and when you said ( CCP ) using the speed as a way to fight you also said you are not considering frigates as a positive appoach to a fight from the moment you said that(also giving to all minmatars ships the advantage to choose the range where to fight but that's not real a great problem). Giving a speed boost to AF or frigate in general is not just a favor you do to us but it will create a BETTER combat! where ships classes will sit perfectly in their ROLE. LISSEN TO US! we are Your PLAYERS!
Rissa T Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.11.09 20:44:00 - [385] Bump
Serra Polaris Amarr Trichomes Unlimited Massive Intergalactic Love Klub	Posted - 2009.11.10 06:52:00 - [386] Well I know the Vengeance used to have a 4th 5% shield resist boost or something. It went away with Quantum Rise or some other expansion around that time but I was told the resists were just added to the base stats since it was under Amarr Frigate which had to be at V anyway. I'm pretty sure the other assault frigates had a 4th bonus too so are you all taking this into account or were these never really added into the ships base stats?
Tray LiSans	Posted - 2009.11.10 08:59:00 - [387] T2 ships all had resist bonuses listed as the 4th bonus quite some time back. There were a lot fewer of them at the time. It was decided to roll that resist bonus into the base hull. All other t2 ships that were affected gained an additional bonus; assault frigates did not. That is part of the argument for them to receive that missing bonus now.
TeaDaze Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2009.11.10 12:38:00 - [388] This has been needed for some time Vote TeaDaze for CSM #4
Strelokh	Posted - 2009.11.13 00:29:00 - [389] /signed
Arcane Azmadi First Flying Wing Inc Primary.	Posted - 2009.12.02 22:10:00 - [390] Bumping massively supported, no-brainer topics, lalala!

Tray LiSans	Posted - 2009.12.02 23:05:00 - [391] Supremely disappointed that such a heavily supported change got removed from Dominion. Bumping in the hopes that we see it come back.
ZigZag Joe Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.03 07:10:00 - [392] Edited by: ZigZag Joe on 03/12/2009 07:10:24 Originally by: Tray LiSans Supremely disappointed that such a heavily supported change got removed from Dominion. Bumping in the hopes that we see it come back. It wasn't widely supported - the AB role bonus in place of a 4th bonus (ie. it wasn't a role bonus, they put it at a 4th bonus) was pants on head ******ed.
Krystal Flores Sinister Elite	Posted - 2009.12.03 08:08:00 - [393] AF dont need much, but they need a buff. For the price of a AF hull you can buy and fit a few Cruisers that are in almost all ways better than a AF. A Hac does almost BS sized dmg and tank in a much smaller package for nearly the same price, this should be the case with AF, give them a slight dmg and bonus fix and they will be back in line with t2.
Tray LiSans	Posted - 2009.12.03 09:23:00 - [394] Originally by: ZigZag Joe Edited by: ZigZag Joe on 03/12/2009 07:10:24 It wasn't widely supported - the AB role bonus in place of a 4th bonus (ie. it wasn't a role bonus, they put it at a 4th bonus) was pants on head ******ed. I didn't mean the AB bonus specifically, although at least that gave AFs a better defined role in heavy tackle. I just meant ANY boost to them at all so that I'm not paying 25mil to do something I could do in better in a cruiser for maybe 5mil after insurance.
Occams Legwax	Posted - 2009.12.15 23:53:00 - [395] CCP seem to have dropped the ball after the AB idea. Did anyone see where the ball went? I have a horrible feeling it's going mouldy under a sofa somewhere
Efrim Black Gallente Guardians of Misr	Posted - 2009.12.29 08:55:00 - [396] There are probably rules about linking off site, but his points are valid. http://www.rifterdrifter.com/2009/11/assault-frigates-what-would-you-change/ In any case shamelessly bumping for some AF love. I would love a signature radius bonus for my jag. x.x
Lana Torrin Minmatar Republic Military Skool	Posted - 2010.01.07 08:37:00 - [397] I know this one is supposed to be coming real soon (tm) but just in case it doesn't.. (The AB boost was great, but perhaps a little too fast) What happened to my AF boost?
M Blanc	Posted - 2010.01.07 10:21:00 - [398] Edited by: M Blanc on 07/01/2010 10:21:57 Originally by: Lana Torrin I know this one is supposed to be coming real soon (tm) but just in case it doesn't.. (The AB boost was great, but perhaps a little too fast) Meh, the Dramiel does 1.8 km/s with a T2 AB and an AF-like buffer; in that context, AB AFs doing 1.2 - 1.5 km/s (as they did with the 15%/level boost) doesn't seem unreasonable to me. v0v
Aineko Macx	Posted - 2010.01.07 11:08:00 - [399]
Lord Cath	Posted - 2010.01.07 12:58:00 - [400] here's me hoping they'll put some more effort in finding specific bonus' for every individual AF then the "let's smack an AB bonus on". Better then nothing agreed, but still far from good

Berendas Monolithic.	Posted - 2010.01.07 13:28:00 - [401] Do want. AF's haven't lived up to what they should be in, well... Forever. Also a second midslot on the Retribution would be nice
Khanstruct United Miners and Manufacturers Co. High Treason Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.07 15:33:00 - [402] supported
Insa Rexion CTRL-Q	Posted - 2010.01.07 20:22:00 - [403] buff their base speeds to a little bit faster than theit T1 counterparts and give each ship a role defined 4th bonus like the afore mentioned tracking bonus. -------------------------------------------- well mannered ****ole
Koronakesh Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2010.01.08 05:08:00 - [404]
Jared Ulfsuun	Posted - 2010.01.08 10:09:00 - [405]
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.01.08 10:42:00 - [406] Give them something, even if it's just something dumb like +5% cap per level so that they're hard to neut.
Dav Varan	Posted - 2010.01.08 14:47:00 - [407] 20% per level to neut/nos resistance. Curse pilots will hate them.
nifty sunrunner	Posted - 2010.01.15 17:23:00 - [408] Yep 4th bonus pls
Jin Nib Resplendent Knives	Posted - 2010.01.15 19:16:00 - [409] -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2010.02.20 03:34:00 - [410] Dominion 1.1 is out, Tyrannis has been announced... and most AFs still pretty much suck. So, le bump! CCP, please do the following: * Perform an internal rebalancing within the class such that all AFs can achieve similar utility to the Jag and/or Ishkur * Add a fourth bonus, either as a role bonus for the whole class or new individual bonuses for each ship * Consider reducing their masses/increasing their base speeds to match those of their T1 counterparts Some additional and more specific desires, in no particular order: * Swap the Jaguar's optimal bonus for tracking a la the Rifter * Increase fitting room on the Wolf and Hawk * Extra mid on the Enyo and Retribution; in fact, an extra mid + fittings to use it would be a pretty good addition across the line, but it's near-essential on these two * FIX ROCKETS * Bring back the AB boost, it was great :(

Minkert Caldari 101st Covert Ops C. O. R. E.	Posted - 2010.03.05 17:49:00 - [411] Bump
Tagami Wasp Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.03.05 18:12:00 - [412] ------------ +15% to railguns' dmg modifier -reduce Spike optimal bonus to 70% +10% to Caldari railboats PG
Enzu777	Posted - 2010.03.09 06:00:00 - [413]
yani dumyat Minmatar Pixie Cats	Posted - 2010.03.09 12:39:00 - [414] One day the hawk will not suck, on that day I will a throw a party and crack open a bottle of champagne. Sig_______ "Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth."
Zhula Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vivisection.	Posted - 2010.03.09 13:22:00 - [415] speed. bump. agility. bump. 4th bonus. bump
Flying ZombieJesus	Posted - 2010.03.09 14:06:00 - [416] AB boost was a good idea - just not to every AF. It would make the enyo useful in pvp (dont say rail enyo) - get in at 1.5k with your AB, speed tank their guns while doing 400 DPS with blasters. Doesn't make sense for every AF though, but it does for a few. Come up with some more bonii and spread them around
Viibl Triibl	Posted - 2010.03.09 16:15:00 - [417] Bumping this as I am about to enter AF territory skill-wise.
Doccia Ellicis Red Federation	Posted - 2010.03.09 22:41:00 - [418]
Anabella Rella Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2010.03.11 19:38:00 - [419] Please revisit these ships to make them worth the price tag.
Asterisk Grat Best Path Inc. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.12 05:44:00 - [420] AF are pretty useless class ship in the game. I keep on buying new and coming back to them, and each time I come to the same conclusion - they are pretty worthless. If you pack their maximum punch their tank melts, if you go for tank, it dps lacks. They would be good if gangs in pvp used frigate size ships much, but thats very rare. Most of engagements they come against cruiser size ships, then they don't do good damage, are slow, and pop. With ceptors, you're small, you're fast, you dps is funny, but you tackle tackle. simply said, there is not much sense and place for AF in todays gangs. Ceptors do much better. Lock fast, move fast, tackle fast, get out fast. AF just die fast. I don't believe any 4th bonus will help much. CCP should have merged AF tank + punch, with electronic warfare bonuses (recon type) to begin with, then they would rock. ----- Pure AF gangs is probably were they ok, but still don't happen much.

Van Haulen	Posted - 2010.03.12 08:50:00 - [421]
tartan pixie Pixie Cats	Posted - 2010.03.17 08:16:00 - [422] sig--------------------------------------------- No your honour my defence is that the pixies did it in the middle of the night. Prove me wrong.
Jon Engel Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative	Posted - 2010.03.17 17:46:00 - [423] I do not care about CSM, and I like this idea. Assault ships are meh nowadays. Everyone is using Faction Frigs. I say, either give em another bonus or give em an extra module slot.
Zilberfrid	Posted - 2010.03.17 20:00:00 - [424] I also approve. I like them mighty good, and do think they could be better. However, an Ishk boost might not be fair, that ship is good as is.
Kvo Vadis	Posted - 2010.03.18 23:42:00 - [425] Originally by: Zilberfrid I also approve. I like them mighty good, and do think they could be better. However, an Ishk boost might not be fair, that ship is good as is. Yep. Lets nerf all successful ships: Drake, Myrm, Ishkur, Ishtar, Zealot, Rupture etc. Lets fix old problems: nerf Scorch range, increase auto cannon PG, boost Rails, remove projectile Alfa etc. Lets make everything equal!
Bomberlocks Minmatar Star Bombers	Posted - 2010.03.19 03:24:00 - [426] Originally by: Wang Jing Assault Ships (Assault Frigates) are currently the only T2 ships which do not receive 4 bonuses. It is only fair that this is addressed, and a lot of the ships in this class are in desperate need of another bonus: Hawk and Vengeance: These need a second damage bonus, as they are currently outdamaged by the kestrel, a T1 frigate, and rockets in general give very poor performance for their fitting requirements. It is increasingly common for the vengeance to be fitted with blasters or lasers as even without bonuses they will outperform rockets. This is surely a sign something needs to be done. Fixing rockets themselves would go a long towards fixing this problem. not that I'm disagreeing with the motion for a fourth bonus. It really is needed. Quote: Wolf and Jaguar: Given the concept of minmatar ships as being fast moving, outmanouevering their opponents and dancing around them, the lack of a tracking bonus on these ships is absurd. Given that their T1 counterpart, the infamous Rifter, receives this bonus, it is quite clear that it is necessary for the role they are most often required to perform; engaging the enemy in a tight orbit, using their superior speed to avoid the guns of a larger foe. Agree absolutely. I also seriously think the Wolf's shield and armour resistances should be swapped. Quote: The other ships in this class, whilst having no glaring flaws, are still in need of help. For example, it is worrying when Gallente pilots in need of a high dps, take no prisoners blaster using frigate will pick an interceptor, the Taranis, over an assault frigate, the Enyo, everytime. In my view that is indicative of a serious problem with assault frigates, and I believe a 4th bonus will justify the cost of these ships and make them perform the way they should. Here I agree as well. The Enyo is a much maligned ship in need of a boost.
Falling Sky The Scope	Posted - 2010.03.19 05:20:00 - [427] Full on support. I love flying assault frigates, but they're way out of whack, balancewise.
Michel Licari No Trademark Killboard Online	Posted - 2010.03.19 06:24:00 - [428] Yes to this.
Zilberfrid	Posted - 2010.03.19 11:35:00 - [429] Originally by: Kvo Vadis Originally by: Zilberfrid I also approve. I like them mighty good, and do think they could be better. However, an Ishk boost might not be fair, that ship is good as is. Yep. Lets nerf all successful ships: Drake, Myrm, Ishkur, Ishtar, Zealot, Rupture etc. Lets fix old problems: nerf Scorch range, increase auto cannon PG, boost Rails, remove projectile Alfa etc. Lets make everything equal! What? I only stated that most AF's need a boost, but the Ishkur is not one of them. Balanced =/= equal. Would you think that a Wolf's style would be even similar to an Ishkur's style, even when desirability would be similar? Could you point out where I stated that AF's should resemble one another other then in desirability?
Pelorn	Posted - 2010.03.19 21:20:00 - [430] /signed

Jish Ness	Posted - 2010.03.31 06:27:00 - [431]
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.03.31 13:40:00 - [432] Originally by: Occams Legwax CCP seem to have dropped the ball after the AB idea. Did anyone see where the ball went? I have a horrible feeling it's going mouldy under a sofa somewhere This is the question I was wondering as well. Originally by: Flying ZombieJesus AB boost was a good idea - just not to every AF. It would make the enyo useful in pvp (dont say rail enyo) - get in at 1.5k with your AB, speed tank their guns while doing 400 DPS with blasters. Doesn't make sense for every AF though, but it does for a few. Come up with some more bonii and spread them around I agree with Jesus. Party because it is fun to say, but mostly because he's right. A good bonus for some AF is not a good bonus for all AF.
Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2010.04.09 13:21:00 - [433] My bump, my bump, my lovely little bump! (C'mon CCP, give me a reason to fly enyos and hawks. And a web on my wolf.)
Jag Kara United Investment	Posted - 2010.04.10 00:54:00 - [434] In Soviet Russia, carebears gank YOU!
eocsnesemaj	Posted - 2010.05.16 20:56:00 - [435] yes
fogbird	Posted - 2010.05.17 07:31:00 - [436] do it, do it now!
Crazy KSK	Posted - 2010.05.17 16:20:00 - [437] meow!
Decon Ko	Posted - 2010.05.19 21:25:00 - [438] I would love to have a reason to fly my AFs in PvP -- This: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1248088
Mkah Mvet Chumly Incorporated Beyond-Control	Posted - 2010.05.19 21:37:00 - [439] supported
The Grouch FinFleet IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.19 22:05:00 - [440] I'd prefer to see a role bonus as opposed to a 4th. Not all interceptors get 4 bonuses either. Each frigate class shiptype is tailored around the original hulls. They also come standard with extra resistances (some of the highest in the game) and extra high slot hardpoints. This makes them quite a match against other ships in its class, and I'm sure many a cruiser and battlecruiser has been lost to a skilled pilot in an AF. If you're dying in AFs you need to learn how to shoot drones (and dare I say it?!?) learn to stay out of web range. The comments about blaster enyos is silly, they're far too slow for anything like that. Blaster ishkur sounds more reasonable, but again when you're inside the 10km range anything goes! That being said, lets give them something else, like a 25% increase in capacitor rate to make up for all those flashy modules which require TONS of capacitor in relation to how much AFs start out with standard. That way they'll have a spitting chance at running active tanking modules, as well as the reps/boosters/guns/AB/MWD <--you get the picture. Just my two isks.

Marlona Sky D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.05.19 23:14:00 - [441] Originally by: The Grouch Not all interceptors get 4 bonuses either. I am guessing your talking about the Taranis which instead of putting two separate +5% to small hybrid bonuses they combined it to one 10% per level?
The Grouch FinFleet IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.20 07:35:00 - [442] Yes, you are correct. Taranis gets double the %, thus counting for two. Although I don't want to derail this individual's thread, so we'll just leave it at that. My only complaint with the OP is that I'd rather see a role bonus as opposed to a 4th. I just think that a role bonus fix would be a better addition and last the test of time as opposed to the unknown reprecussions of experimenting with the 4th bonus for each individual ship. My previous idea was just a suggestion based on my own personal pet peeves with AFs.
Ugly Eric	Posted - 2010.05.20 09:02:00 - [443] Edited by: Ugly Eric on 20/05/2010 09:02:20 In my experience (only minmatar AF's) to give a combined bonus to all is the wrong way. All of them dont even need a bonus, they need a slot. Retribution really doesn't need a bonus, it needs a medslot. Wolf really the same thing. Jaguar the again needs the ab speed bonus (maybe 5% per af level?) OR tracking bonus. The Jaguar should newer get to the same m/s and tracking as the Dramiel does, but give them something to make it really useful. Althought Jaguar is one of the few good af's at this moment. Wolf needs a medslot OR AB speed. A medslot to fit a webifier or ab speed to make it fast enough. It should newer be the same speed as jaguar, but little more would really be good. Retribution needs the damned scramblerslot OR 100% rolebonus to basespeed. Then they would not need a speedmod to be relatively fast and could fit a point in the midslot. If the midslot would be used to speedmod, it would be insanely fast (whitch fights against amarr general behaviour), but once again would not be able to tackle or any ewar. To the ishkur I would give little (5% per af level) ab speed also. No further bonuses or slotlayoutchanges needed. It would increase it's survivalibility enough. To fix rockets in general would fix two of the af's pretty well, but as I have absolutely no experience in them, I better not say anything of those :) Sorry if doubleposting, didnt read the whole shabang. Eric edit: forgot to support
Moebbius Lyman Alpha Syndicate	Posted - 2010.05.23 21:31:00 - [444] supported
Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2010.07.12 05:43:00 - [445] BAAAAMP. No Incarna before fixed AFs! No Dust before fixed AFs! What do we want? A fourth bonus and fixed agility/speed! When do we want it? Um, a couple of expansions ago, actually. RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!
Aion Amarra Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.12 05:48:00 - [446] Because this cannot be bumped enough.
Wraith Soulsark Pelican. Veneratio Venator Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.23 22:16:00 - [447] Please
Thrasymachus TheSophist	Posted - 2010.07.23 22:58:00 - [448] What he said.
Xorv	Posted - 2010.07.24 02:43:00 - [449] Supported
Morwennon	Posted - 2010.07.24 04:59:00 - [450] This eminently reasonable proposal has earned my wholehearted support!!111!

Baroshi Hynas The Exploratory Project	Posted - 2010.08.20 22:06:00 - [451] Please, oh please give Ishkurs the 10% drone damage per level bonus that they so desperatly need. ALL other gallente drone carriers have it (vexor, myrm, domi). I mean, you don't have to include the 10% drone hp bonus (even though it'd be nice too), just at the very least give us the damage bonus!
Kuan Yida Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2010.08.23 21:28:00 - [452] +1
Valthax Kelkore	Posted - 2010.08.25 13:56:00 - [453]
Theel Maas Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.25 14:58:00 - [454]
Drifnir Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2010.08.25 22:04:00 - [455] AF's just need a little boost in effectiveness to really come into their own and kick some ass in Eve What that 'little boost' should be...i've no idea....sorry. Supported, anyway.
NeovonPoet	Posted - 2010.08.26 12:59:00 - [456] Suproted
Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2010.09.10 18:58:00 - [457] Man, look at this commitment to excellence: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1005679&page=35#1026 Originally by: CCP Chronotis assault frigate balancing is separate to rockets and not on the immediate horizon for release like rockets (aka in the backlog, not assigned to a release but could be pulled in if time allows). The current approach is to release rocket changes, then do assault frigs after that in a subsequent release. The issue is they are scenario specific to where they under perform. One approach we have explored a little is splitting the varieties more to give a more distinct difference in role so one may be remain the armoured gank 'mini-hac' whilst the other might fulfill a heavy tackler role perhaps as one idea to cover the two main scenarios and potential roles. (also we need to rename these and hacs back to frigates and cruisers. Always weird to call them ships!) Bleh. Signature removed.
BlahBlahBlah exwife	Posted - 2010.09.14 00:19:00 - [458] TL:DR, but the 4th bonus on assault ships was resistances. Since you have to have a racial frigate skill to 5 to fly that race's assault frigs, meaning the bonus would always be the same, and for other reasons I don't recall, at one point CCP decided to quit listing it as a bonus in the description, and just add the calculated amount to the ships base resists in the info window's second tab. The fourth bonus is still there, just displayed differently, now. Oh yes....it lets you look up a ship in the market and see what the actual resists would be, rather than having to either board it or eft (quickfit) it, or get out your calculator.
Vladimiru Gallente Broken Cannon	Posted - 2010.09.14 00:53:00 - [459] Originally by: BlondieBC supported. I would like to see all assualt frigates get a 15% bonus to afterbuners, this both helps the AF and the afterburner. Perhaps even an agility increase as well. I think AF's should be the most agile ship, period.
Astroka Australian Mining and industry Corp Intergalactic Exports Group	Posted - 2010.09.14 01:13:00 - [460] Originally by: Vladimiru Originally by: BlondieBC supported. I would like to see all assualt frigates get a 15% bonus to afterbuners, this both helps the AF and the afterburner. Perhaps even an agility increase as well. I think AF's should be the most agile ship, period. What about Interceptors? ====================================== "Rawr" means "I love you" in dinosaur! ======================================

Shwedagon Paya	Posted - 2010.09.14 03:01:00 - [461] +1 Assault Frigates, the ships everyone only flies for fun because they don't properly fill any role, certainly not well enough to justify their cost.
Vladimiru Gallente Broken Cannon	Posted - 2010.09.14 03:26:00 - [462] Originally by: Astroka Originally by: Vladimiru Originally by: BlondieBC supported. I would like to see all assualt frigates get a 15% bonus to afterbuners, this both helps the AF and the afterburner. Perhaps even an agility increase as well. I think AF's should be the most agile ship, period. What about Interceptors? Speed != Agility Inty's should be the fastest ships yes, but AF's should be the best at making smooth 180 turns for dogfighting at close range. I wouldn't mind if the 4th bonus was near-web-immunity (75% reduction at level V).
Astroka	Posted - 2010.09.14 06:49:00 - [463] Originally by: Vladimiru Originally by: Astroka Originally by: Vladimiru Originally by: BlondieBC supported. I would like to see all assualt frigates get a 15% bonus to afterbuners, this both helps the AF and the afterburner. Perhaps even an agility increase as well. I think AF's should be the most agile ship, period. What about Interceptors? Speed != Agility Inty's should be the fastest ships yes, but AF's should be the best at making smooth 180 turns for dogfighting at close range. I wouldn't mind if the 4th bonus was near-web-immunity (75% reduction at level V). Assault ships are supposed to be stronger, more resilient versions of frigates. Interceptors are supposed to be faster, more agile versions. This is their role. ====================================== "Rawr" means "I love you" in dinosaur! ======================================
Hayaishi Aperture Harmonics	Posted - 2010.09.22 12:11:00 - [464] Edited by: Hayaishi on 22/09/2010 12:13:07 /signed The Ishkur should get a Drone Speed bonus to make it a dedicated AF for anti-interceptor support.
Sepheir Sepheron Legion..	Posted - 2010.10.06 07:33:00 - [465] Originally by: Wang Jing It is increasingly common for the vengeance to be fitted with blasters or lasers as even without bonuses they will outperform rockets. I'm one of them lol Light Ion II > Rocket
Adrena Tirkuni Manufact Co.	Posted - 2010.10.09 21:01:00 - [466] A second middle slot on retribution would be nice :)) I support!
Jaala Creed Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2010.10.10 19:18:00 - [467] Agreed, good arguements.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.10.10 20:40:00 - [468] give them all another midslot another rig slot, 30 more cpu and 5 more power and they'd be pretty darn versatile. The electronic attack ships also need a similar boost... not another mid slot but patching their racial resitance holes and maybe giving them some bomb resitance so they're not dead with one bomb unless they fit a shield extender(and the notion of an armor tanked frigate is sort of odd to me )
Peter Quixote	Posted - 2010.10.11 02:40:00 - [469] Love Assault Frigs, just not the Amarr ones. Training for Wolf right now.
Pure Tabasco	Posted - 2010.10.13 22:28:00 - [470] ++1

Maz3r Rakum	Posted - 2010.10.14 00:25:00 - [471] +1
Freelancer117	Posted - 2010.10.18 19:44:00 - [472] 4th bonus on AF's , Excellent dont forget the Amarr ships too
Lemming Alpha1dash1	Posted - 2010.10.18 20:27:00 - [473] +1
Dro Nee	Posted - 2010.10.18 22:06:00 - [474] Just break out the resist bonus that af's get so that people stop whining. i.e... give the jag the same resists as the sabre, claw, hound and then the additional resists found on the jag hull can be broken out and made the 4th bonus. Please oh please do not do dumb things like give the jag tracking bonuses or AB bonuses. Though giving the retri 1 med slot in exchange for a low would be fine.
usrevenge	Posted - 2010.10.19 02:11:00 - [475]
Dinta Zembo	Posted - 2010.10.19 16:46:00 - [476] Definitely supported. I haven't flown my Hawk for months. It sucks balls. Make them stronger
hjgjgfgfgsj	Posted - 2010.10.24 14:34:00 - [477] I am totally supporting this. I think the fourth bonus should be in relation to the fourth bonus on the heavy assault ship counterpart. Vagabond gets a bonus to max velocity, so make the Jaguar get a bonus to max velocity. Munnin gets a bonus to tracking, give the Wolf a tracking bonus - it has no web. Ishtar gets a bonus to drone damage and hitpoints, give this to the Ishkur, you may think its overkill so maybe just the damage bonus i guess. Enyo, I guess would get a bonus to MWD capacitor. The Hawks current shield boosting bonus does not relate to the Cerberus. I would suggest giving the Hawk a ROF bonus like the cerb. The Harpy is missing a bonus to shield resistances. The retribution is missing a ROF bonus and a midslot if it please ya, the midslot, i guess doesnt matter as much if ccp wont fix it. The Vengeance is missing a ROF bonus. This won't make them overpowered, only better ships.
Rickhart	Posted - 2010.10.24 16:09:00 - [478] supported
matthiastee	Posted - 2010.10.24 16:10:00 - [479] oh yeah i support this
Chris Shogun	Posted - 2010.10.24 18:47:00 - [480] Supported!

Tekei The Scurvy Corsairs	Posted - 2010.10.24 18:55:00 - [481] Supported!
Dro Nee	Posted - 2010.10.24 19:27:00 - [482] Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj I am totally supporting this. I think the fourth bonus should be in relation to the fourth bonus on the heavy assault ship counterpart. Vagabond gets a bonus to max velocity, so make the Jaguar get a bonus to max velocity. Munnin gets a bonus to tracking, give the Wolf a tracking bonus - it has no web. Ishtar gets a bonus to drone damage and hitpoints, give this to the Ishkur, you may think its overkill so maybe just the damage bonus i guess. Enyo, I guess would get a bonus to MWD capacitor. The Hawks current shield boosting bonus does not relate to the Cerberus. I would suggest giving the Hawk a ROF bonus like the cerb. The Harpy is missing a bonus to shield resistances. The retribution is missing a ROF bonus and a midslot if it please ya, the midslot, i guess doesnt matter as much if ccp wont fix it. The Vengeance is missing a ROF bonus. This won't make them overpowered, only better ships. I lol'ed
hjgjgfgfgsj	Posted - 2010.10.24 19:39:00 - [483] Originally by: Dro Nee Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj I am totally supporting this. I think the fourth bonus should be in relation to the fourth bonus on the heavy assault ship counterpart. Vagabond gets a bonus to max velocity, so make the Jaguar get a bonus to max velocity. Munnin gets a bonus to tracking, give the Wolf a tracking bonus - it has no web. Ishtar gets a bonus to drone damage and hitpoints, give this to the Ishkur, you may think its overkill so maybe just the damage bonus i guess. Enyo, I guess would get a bonus to MWD capacitor. The Hawks current shield boosting bonus does not relate to the Cerberus. I would suggest giving the Hawk a ROF bonus like the cerb. The Harpy is missing a bonus to shield resistances. The retribution is missing a ROF bonus and a midslot if it please ya, the midslot, i guess doesnt matter as much if ccp wont fix it. The Vengeance is missing a ROF bonus. This won't make them overpowered, only better ships. I lol'ed Care to elaborate?
Dro Nee	Posted - 2010.10.24 20:36:00 - [484] Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj Originally by: Dro Nee Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj I am totally supporting this. I think the fourth bonus should be in relation to the fourth bonus on the heavy assault ship counterpart. Vagabond gets a bonus to max velocity, so make the Jaguar get a bonus to max velocity. Munnin gets a bonus to tracking, give the Wolf a tracking bonus - it has no web. Ishtar gets a bonus to drone damage and hitpoints, give this to the Ishkur, you may think its overkill so maybe just the damage bonus i guess. Enyo, I guess would get a bonus to MWD capacitor. The Hawks current shield boosting bonus does not relate to the Cerberus. I would suggest giving the Hawk a ROF bonus like the cerb. The Harpy is missing a bonus to shield resistances. The retribution is missing a ROF bonus and a midslot if it please ya, the midslot, i guess doesnt matter as much if ccp wont fix it. The Vengeance is missing a ROF bonus. This won't make them overpowered, only better ships. I lol'ed Care to elaborate? Oh. You were serious? Mah bad.
hjgjgfgfgsj	Posted - 2010.10.24 22:26:00 - [485] Originally by: Dro Nee Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj Originally by: Dro Nee Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj I am totally supporting this. I think the fourth bonus should be in relation to the fourth bonus on the heavy assault ship counterpart. Vagabond gets a bonus to max velocity, so make the Jaguar get a bonus to max velocity. Munnin gets a bonus to tracking, give the Wolf a tracking bonus - it has no web. Ishtar gets a bonus to drone damage and hitpoints, give this to the Ishkur, you may think its overkill so maybe just the damage bonus i guess. Enyo, I guess would get a bonus to MWD capacitor. The Hawks current shield boosting bonus does not relate to the Cerberus. I would suggest giving the Hawk a ROF bonus like the cerb. The Harpy is missing a bonus to shield resistances. The retribution is missing a ROF bonus and a midslot if it please ya, the midslot, i guess doesnt matter as much if ccp wont fix it. The Vengeance is missing a ROF bonus. This won't make them overpowered, only better ships. I lol'ed Care to elaborate? Oh. You were serious? Mah bad. Like I said, care to elaborate?
Dro Nee	Posted - 2010.10.25 01:18:00 - [486] Besides the fact that they already have 4 bonuses, even if we wanted them to have 5 your "suggestions" dont do squat for balance within the class nor keep things balanced between AF's and other classes. -3km/s(ab) to 5km/s(mwd) Jags wont be balanced -350dps ishkurs wont be balanced -230dps Hawks wont be balanced Not to mention you dont give meaningful bonuses to the enyo, harpy, veng, or wolf once you take the major boosts the 3 top AF's get. I assumed you had actually thought about all this and were just having a laugh because of your last line (read: Trolling). Like I said, mah bad.
hjgjgfgfgsj	Posted - 2010.10.25 03:21:00 - [487] Originally by: Dro Nee Besides the fact that they already have 4 bonuses, even if we wanted them to have 5 your "suggestions" dont do squat for balance within the class nor keep things balanced between AF's and other classes. -3km/s(ab) to 5km/s(mwd) Jags wont be balanced -350dps ishkurs wont be balanced -230dps Hawks wont be balanced Not to mention you dont give meaningful bonuses to the enyo, harpy, veng, or wolf once you take the major boosts the 3 top AF's get. I assumed you had actually thought about all this and were just having a laugh because of your last line (read: Trolling). Like I said, mah bad. No. Assault frigates only get 3 bonuses at the moment. I was suggesting the fourth bonus that this topic is proposing. Anyway, maybe my suggestions wouldn't balance the class, but I was just giving suggestions for a fourth bonus of the assault ships in relation to the heavy assault ships. Didn't give a meaningful bonus for the enyo? couldnt think of any. deimos gets a bonus to mwd cap use, so I suggested that for the enyo. The sac gets a bonus to missile ROF so the veng should too no? The cerberus gets a bonus to missile ROF so the hawk should too no? I'm not sure about the wolfs bonus because it was just something from the top of my head but the munnin gets a bonus to tracking as well as two dmg bonuses and a range bonus, so figured it made sense.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2010.10.25 05:12:00 - [488] The frigates that AF are based on have 10 slots. 4-3-3 rifter for example. AF give one more slot to them for a total of 11 slots. 4-4-3 jag or 5-2-4 wolf that actually strips a mid and makes you do a double take if you're used to the rifter experience. All of the AF should get an extra slot - make it mid or low. 4-4-4 jag and 5-3-4 wolf. Give the ships their missing frigate bonus - tracking bonus in the case of the wolf and jag. Done. Now this WILL obsolete the destroyer class but AF and destroyers were competing for the same "niche" anyways. Considering how broken destroyers are nothing should be balanced around them anyways.
neener2u2	Posted - 2010.10.25 14:26:00 - [489] Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj No. Assault frigates only get 3 bonuses at the moment. Saying this over and over does not make it true. Nor does someone makeing a thread saying this make it true. If you want to have a boost AF thread fine. But lets not do it under the false pretense that they are missing the t2 4th bonus. Originally by: Dro Nee Just break out the resist bonus that af's get so that ignorant people stop whining. i.e... give the jag the same resists as the sabre, claw, hound and then the additional resists found on the jag hull can be broken out and made the 4th bonus. Please oh please do not do dumb things like give the jag tracking bonuses or AB bonuses. Though giving the retri 1 med slot in exchange for a low would be fine. Fix'd And this
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2010.10.25 15:01:00 - [490] EAS ships get T2 resists - and it's not mentioned as a bonus. Most T2 ships get the increased resistances w/o it being mentioned. The AF were among the first T2 ships and were experimental. I wouldn't mind interceptors getting the T2 resistances to be honest. I'll also make the point that most T2 frigates have been redone - and get a role bonus when all is said and done. This is not something where the wheel has to be reinvented. Slap on an extra mid or low for all AF. The retribution would have two mids, then enyo and wolf three, ect. Slap on the missing frigate bonus. Make the role bonus the T2 resists - and keep the speed and agility the same - that's more then a fair tradeoff.

Aiwha 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.10.25 15:07:00 - [491] Supported. Bring back the sniper harpy! I like me Recruiter
hjgjgfgfgsj	Posted - 2010.10.25 15:21:00 - [492] You must all be stupid. T2 resists aren't a fourth bonus. The vagabond gets T2 resists as well as a fourth bonus. Quit being **heads. Assault ships are missing a fourth bonus. Give it to them. Interceptors are missing a fourth bonus too. The "role bonus" which gives a 80% reduction in propulsion jamming operation cost, is absolutely not a bonus. Recon ships get 4 bonuses as well as a role bonus. Quit bull**ting.
Greg6	Posted - 2010.10.25 15:55:00 - [493] AFs need some love, big time. Fully supported.
neener2u2	Posted - 2010.10.25 16:16:00 - [494] Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj You must all be stupid. T2 resists aren't a fourth bonus. The vagabond gets T2 resists as well as a fourth bonus. Quit being **heads. Assault ships are missing a fourth bonus. Give it to them. Interceptors are missing a fourth bonus too. The "role bonus" which gives a 80% reduction in propulsion jamming operation cost, is absolutely not a bonus. Recon ships get 4 bonuses as well as a role bonus. Quit bullting. If a bonus is not a bonus then what is the definition of a bonus again? It seems to me that the only reason why you dont want to consider a role bonus as a bonus is that some ships get 4 regular bonuses and 2 bonuses from roles. Having a 6 bonus t2 ship, several 5 bonus t2 ships, and some 4 bonus t2 ships implies that perhaps CCP doesnt beleive that all t2 ships should have the same number of bonuses...which undermines the "geif AF the t2 4th bonus" argument. Plain and simple the extra resists an AF gets over and above the other t2 ships of its class is the 4th bonus. Which is why I advocate for CCP putting it back into the description... so people dont get confused. The EAF's also get a higher base resist and therefore, it can be argued, have more than 4 bonuses. Which is fine because not all t2 ships need/get the same quantity** of bonuses to be balanced. /me awaits the incoming "HAHAHAHA I TROLLOLOLOLOL U!!!!!" poast.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2010.10.25 17:01:00 - [495] "Gold jacket, green jacket, who gives a **?"--Happy Gilmore I don't care how many bonuses we say AF have - the bottom line is that they don't quite work. Frigates with one or two mids struggle or just plain don't work. Ships that cost 18+ million isk but pop when a cruiser looks their way don't work. Ships that struggle to track other ships their own class don't work. I've plopped down my idea. CCP needs to get that ** sorted.
hjgjgfgfgsj	Posted - 2010.10.25 17:33:00 - [496] Man, the bottom line, for me, is that the jaguar should be more than 200m/s faster than the vagabond. the vagabond and the cynabal relate to eachother almost identically. So too, should the jaguar and dramiel. I'm not saying make the jag as good as the dramiel in every way. I'm just saying, make it faster. Right now it is not fast enough for it's reputation as a kite-mobile. The jag is a mini-vaga, give it some more speed (not a lot, a little). The wolf is a gunboat. Give it a tracking bonus. That's the way I see it, no need to give both the jag and wolf a tracking bonus.
Dro Nee	Posted - 2010.10.26 03:09:00 - [497] Originally by: Zarnak Wulf "Gold jacket, green jacket, who gives a **?"--Happy Gilmore I don't care how many bonuses we say AF have - the bottom line is that they don't quite work. Frigates with one or two mids struggle or just plain don't work. Ships that cost 18+ million isk but pop when a cruiser looks their way don't work. Ships that struggle to track other ships their own class don't work. I've plopped down my idea. CCP needs to get that ** sorted. I totally agree that the frigs/dessies (t1 or t2) with insufficient mids do struggle in general purpose fights. In the best case scenarios they wind up only being choiceworthy in very niche circumstances. This could do with some work. As for cruisers I am not really convinced they are as bad as you make them out to be. I flew ishkurs for a long time, everything from the std fit to total bizarro-land fits, and overall it performed exactly where a balanced AF should. Granted the ishkur is one of the top AF's (with the jag and wolf) and not all AF's will be able to do the same. The most pressing problem that cruisers present to AF's, imo, is that so many cruisers are fitting specifically to counter AF's and faction friggies now. I cant come up with a good argument for why a ship that dies/gets chased off, when the other ship is specifically setup to kill it, needs a boost. It seems to me that asking to boost the ship to the point where it doesnt get killed/chased off (by competent pilots) is really asking for someing OP by definition. If you have a good argument then by all means share though. PS- you get no sympathy on the tracking thing if your talking about jags and wolfs. They always track as good, if not better, than my blasters
W33b3l	Posted - 2010.10.26 05:46:00 - [498] I know that some assault frigs tend to have issues. The vengeance has the potential to be an awesome little assault frig and im in love with the idea of that ship not to mention its looks, but the low DPS factor does tend to be a buzz kill. Theres an Amaar armor tanking missile boat HAC which is an awesome combination, if we could just fix rockets a little or raise the bonus for the vengeance it would help. As for a 4th bonus, yes that makes sense since most other tech 2 ships have that.
General Rivera	Posted - 2010.10.29 13:01:00 - [499] +1
Firey Jack Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.10.30 13:02:00 - [500] Fully supported, BTW.

Mishkaii	Posted - 2010.10.30 17:09:00 - [501] Supported
Bloody Puppy bulloxer	Posted - 2010.11.06 09:55:00 - [502] Edited by: Bloody Puppy on 06/11/2010 09:57:37 Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj The jag is a mini-vaga, give it some more speed (not a lot, a little). The wolf is a gunboat. Give it a tracking bonus. man tbh it is absolutely the reversal.... jag is the munin's light version. wolf is the vaga's light version. 4th bonus is ok. mixed bull***s like sacriledge strange bonuses not. EDIT: 100% supported topic ------------------------------------- WHY EVERYONE LOVES ME BUT NOONE UNDERSTAND ME?* Albert Heinstein
Rickhart Gallente	Posted - 2010.11.08 16:48:00 - [503] Originally by: Bloody Puppy Edited by: Bloody Puppy on 06/11/2010 09:57:37 Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj The jag is a mini-vaga, give it some more speed (not a lot, a little). The wolf is a gunboat. Give it a tracking bonus. man tbh it is absolutely the reversal.... jag is the munin's light version. wolf is the vaga's light version. 4th bonus is ok. mixed bull****s like sacriledge strange bonuses not. EDIT: 100% supported topic if your right and the wolf is the mini vaga that is really sad that the wolf is actually slower than the vaga.
Tyranis Marcus	Posted - 2010.11.09 06:53:00 - [504] Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj Originally by: Dro Nee Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj I lol'ed Care to elaborate? Oh. You were serious? Mah bad. Like I said, care to elaborate? I'll elaborate. Assault ships already have a 4th bonus. It's resists. Someone already explained that just a few posts above yours. Go check it out.
SheoFapped	Posted - 2010.11.20 14:41:00 - [505] Supported! About time! I have been worried about the Vengeance's damage for a long while now, so much tank yet so little dps. Thanks for listening! x3
Azbuga Bloody Amarr's	Posted - 2010.11.20 23:50:00 - [506] +1
Alekseyev Karrde Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.11.21 04:46:00 - [507] Originally by: Tyranis Marcus Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj Originally by: Dro Nee Originally by: hjgjgfgfgsj I lol'ed Care to elaborate? Oh. You were serious? Mah bad. Like I said, care to elaborate? I'll elaborate. Assault ships already have a 4th bonus. It's resists. Someone already explained that just a few posts above yours. Go check it out. Are you implying all T2 ships (except for the AF) have FIVE bonuses? Well heavens we better change the OP title or no one will know what they're talking about. Should be "Give AF their 5th bonus" lol get a clue noob. ---
Fai Ni	Posted - 2010.11.21 08:23:00 - [508] AF needs more agility and speed, because crusersize aligntime makes them unuseble in 00.
Dorian Tormak	Posted - 2011.01.16 03:57:00 - [509] Edited by: Dorian Tormak on 16/01/2011 03:57:48 The people saying AF already have a fourth bonus are just really really... really, rediculously dumb. And the fact that they only have three bonusses is so rediculous it's just... like... WHAT THE FUKK. Four bonusses please, tracking, damage, whatever hand it the fukk over. Oh, and supported.
Mamba Lev Masturbating Hand Social Club	Posted - 2011.01.23 17:17:00 - [510] +1

Ekserevnitis	Posted - 2011.02.07 15:53:00 - [511] +1
Eternal Error Exitus Acta Probant	Posted - 2011.02.07 19:41:00 - [512] necro supported
Swynet	Posted - 2011.02.08 04:59:00 - [513]
Samillian	Posted - 2011.02.08 11:42:00 - [514]
Pezzente	Posted - 2011.02.08 12:30:00 - [515] 10% AB speed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IronToken DiamondCutters	Posted - 2011.02.09 16:35:00 - [516] Completely supported. I have been waiting for quite some time.
Forgotten Deity	Posted - 2011.02.10 19:09:00 - [517] Edited by: Forgotten Deity on 10/02/2011 19:09:29 Definitely need doing
Frank Shitlitz	Posted - 2011.02.10 22:14:00 - [518] Edited by: Frank **litz on 10/02/2011 22:14:54 It is only fair that all t2 ships should get 7 bonuses like bombers. Interceptors need 2 more bonuses (they only have 5), Recons need 1 more (they get 6 already), HAC's + HIC's + BO's should get 3 more (they only have 4), and Mauraders should get 1 more (they have 6 right now). Then all T2 ships would be treated fairly and get the same number of bonuses. If you want to nitpik and claim that unlisted bonuses to resists (that are over t1 resists for that race) then the number of additional bonuses will be reduced by 1 for those ships with built in higher resists. Doing this is stoopid though, because they are not really bonuses but merely different ship attributes. Totally support giving ALL T2 ships 7 bonuses to make things fair
Ba'lur Rorrot	Posted - 2011.02.23 01:10:00 - [519] 4th is needed, and like there big brothers one ship should tank & one should gank. Tho an over hall may be needed for some, eg- caldari the tank ship is the missile boat witch is from the manufacturer that doesn't specialize in tank. i don't know if that's the only one that's like that but i likes me some fluff and would like to see the abilitys reflect that.
Tyranis Marcus	Posted - 2011.02.25 20:58:00 - [520] Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde Originally by: Tyranis Marcus I'll elaborate. Assault ships already have a 4th bonus. It's resists. Someone already explained that just a few posts above yours. Go check it out. Are you implying all T2 ships (except for the AF) have FIVE bonuses? Well heavens we better change the OP title or no one will know what they're talking about. Should be "Give AF their 5th bonus" lol get a clue noob. I'm not implying that at all. Are you too lazy to scroll up and read or is your comprehension really just that low?

Tyranis Marcus	Posted - 2011.02.25 21:02:00 - [521] Edited by: Tyranis Marcus on 25/02/2011 21:06:05 Originally by: Dorian Tormak Edited by: Dorian Tormak on 16/01/2011 15:12:31 The people saying AF already have a fourth bonus are just really really... really, rediculously dumb. And the fact that they only have three bonusses is so rediculous it's just... like... WHAT THE FUKK. Four bonusses please, tracking, damage, whatever hand it the fukk over. Oh, and supported. I suppose CCP should have seen this coming back when they changed the way AF resists are listed. The vast majority of people are just too lacking in intelligence to realize they don't know everything, and that there may have been changes to the game before they ever started playing that they aren't aware of. edit...don't know why I bothered to reply twice. You're probably the same guy. Typical Noir.
Tyranis Marcus	Posted - 2011.02.25 21:50:00 - [522] I still support another bonus though. It'd make my Wolf even sweeter. Just want to see people get their facts straight.
Bedell White Powder	Posted - 2011.02.27 17:29:00 - [523]
Flaming Lies	Posted - 2011.02.28 13:57:00 - [524]
Nyalnara Ares Protectiva	Posted - 2011.02.28 14:22:00 - [525] ________________________________________________________ [url=http://forum.ares-protectiva.fr/][/url]
Jade Knight07	Posted - 2011.03.01 06:37:00 - [526] Not sure what would be the best way to implement a 4th bonus, but I totally agree they need their due 4th bonus.
Kireiina	Posted - 2011.03.10 03:52:00 - [527] Supported... possibly again, but it's not like CCP have done anything.
Natalia Kovac Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2011.03.10 08:15:00 - [528] Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 10/03/2011 08:14:48 Jaguar should get an AB bonus. **** everything else.
wolf419	Posted - 2011.03.11 06:22:00 - [529] Originally by: Wang Jing Assault Ships (Assault Frigates) are currently the only T2 ships which do not receive 4 bonuses. It is only fair that this is addressed, and a lot of the ships in this class are in desperate need of another bonus: Hawk and Vengeance: These need a second damage bonus, as they are currently outdamaged by the kestrel, a T1 frigate, and rockets in general give very poor performance for their fitting requirements. It is increasingly common for the vengeance to be fitted with blasters or lasers as even without bonuses they will outperform rockets. This is surely a sign something needs to be done. Wolf and Jaguar: Given the concept of minmatar ships as being fast moving, outmanouevering their opponents and dancing around them, the lack of a tracking bonus on these ships is absurd. Given that their T1 counterpart, the infamous Rifter, receives this bonus, it is quite clear that it is necessary for the role they are most often required to perform; engaging the enemy in a tight orbit, using their superior speed to avoid the guns of a larger foe. The other ships in this class, whilst having no glaring flaws, are still in need of help. For example, it is worrying when Gallente pilots in need of a high dps, take no prisoners blaster using frigate will pick an interceptor, the Taranis, over an assault frigate, the Enyo, everytime. In my view that is indicative of a serious problem with assault frigates, and I believe a 4th bonus will justify the cost of these ships and make them perform the way they should. i suport this as well but i have one question why the heck do t2 ships have only 2 rig slots makes no senceto have a more advanced ship with less slots then a t1 ccp realy didn't think that one through i think x960.jpg
Shaera Taam Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.11 07:39:00 - [530] Originally by: wolf419 i suport this as well but i have one question why the heck do t2 ships have only 2 rig slots makes no senceto have a more advanced ship with less slots then a t1 ccp realy didn't think that one through i think actually it does, wolf... rig slots are supposed to reflect the amount of jury rigging a hull can withstand. the "i'll tweak this here to get it to do what it's not designed to do" kind of modifications. so, it makes perfect sense that a more advanced ship, built to higher specs and tolerances, would allow for fewer on-the-fly modifications. well, makes sense to me... oh, yeah, and support for the OP! __________________________________________________ Gravity: It's not just a good idea, it's the law!" --Adam Savage, Mythbusters

The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.03.11 09:04:00 - [531] Originally by: Natalia Kovac Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 10/03/2011 08:14:48 Jaguar should get an AB bonus. ** everything else. Actually the Jaguar was one of the reasons why the AB bonus didn't left sissi back in the days(reaching over 4k with a bit of pimp, heavy tanked and unscramble). ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by:** Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Naomi Knight Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.11 09:27:00 - [532] Originally by: The Djego Originally by: Natalia Kovac Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 10/03/2011 08:14:48 Jaguar should get an AB bonus. **** everything else. Actually the Jaguar was one of the reasons why the AB bonus didn't left sissi back in the days(reaching over 4k with a bit of pimp, heavy tanked and unscramble). then nerf matar
Little Fistter Caldari Crimson Templars	Posted - 2011.03.11 20:03:00 - [533] Many ships have bad bonuses and should be dealt with. However, to address the current issue, yes, AF's are mostly shunned because there is always some better ship for the job. Frankly, I think the 4th bonus should complement inteceptor role, not compete for the role. So NO warp scramble or MWD bonus, please. AF's need more DPS, so a straight damage bonus on a real weapon system (NOT rate of fire or useless weapon bonus) with the goal that each AF can deal as much damage as a Daredevil or a Dramiel or at least a Taranis. Otherwise, you might sell the Enyo's and Hawk's as hot dog stands. DEVS! Please a small color indicator upon jump gate icon that shows color of the system security rating of the destination system in the overview and in the HUD view. Little Fistter
Evet Morrel Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2011.03.12 10:54:00 - [534] Yep, let worm turn - these are the ships of choice for entry level PvE - so lets make them them a PvP asset then these guys can make the transition into skirmish gangs.
Paul Mustaka Hekard	Posted - 2011.03.12 18:25:00 - [535] supporting buff on the AF
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.03.12 19:49:00 - [536] Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 12/03/2011 19:51:39 Originally by: Little Fistter ..AF's need more DPS, so a straight damage bonus on a real weapon system ... How will that make them any more useful or complimentary to the interceptors? You'll still be way better off picking a cruiser just as you are now. Other options exist that can do what you want: - Give them ability to use Warp Disruption Field Generators by giving them a CPU bonus for fitting them. - Give them ability to use gang links with a fitting bonus like that of the BC's. - Give them limited eWar immunity through a charge consuming module. Make charges rather large to allow for 5-10m total before needing to restock. Etc. Cruisers already fill the medium tank/gank niche and since they will always be much cheaper thanks to insurance and lower base cost, making AF's into direct competitors to them is counter productive.
lisa herrick	Posted - 2011.03.28 22:10:00 - [537] abso-bloody-lutely!
Jerika Bodet	Posted - 2011.03.29 00:30:00 - [538] Supported, a 4th to enhance whatever niche it has in combat.
Snaketzu M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2011.05.04 20:41:00 - [539] I agree that right now AF are generally a second choice to a T1 cruiser, somewhere. They need to be something more than a cruiser with a frigate sig radius and hitpoints. If a fourth bonus is what it takes, then I'm all for it.
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.05.06 22:34:00 - [540] assault frigates... i.e. assault... they should get hit points bonus, so that they can withstand some punishment... they need stronger firepower and much more hitpoints than normal frigates. Double assault frigates hit points. Assault frigates need to withstand HEAVY gun fire (which they do with AB) and have room to resist small firearms. Assault frigates are meant to be close combat focused, extra toughness and extra armor makes sure that despite smaller guns, they are interesting choice for combat. Assault frigates cost much more than a cruiser, they need to be used against larger class enemies, so give them decent armor and shields. Also 50% more firepower than tech 1 counterparts and focus on close range combat.

Maxx Overseer Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Crimson Legion	Posted - 2011.05.17 19:10:00 - [541] Yes yes yes You pay isk and time to get in one Go figure --- --- --- --fly fast--
Darryl Ward	Posted - 2011.05.17 20:02:00 - [542] Good idea.
Althus Treefingers Voluval Security Services	Posted - 2011.06.15 03:42:00 - [543] + Figuring something out for certain EWAR frigs would be nice, too.
Zen Sarum	Posted - 2011.06.15 09:03:00 - [544] I agree with these changes and would go further: Hawk should get significant bonus to missile damage (+5% ROF per level). Vengeance should get significant bonus to rocket damage (+5% ROF per level). Wolf and Jaguar should get +7.5% tracking per level. Retribution should switch a -1 high for a +1 mid Ishkur should have a 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level bonus and lose a high slot. Enyo should have a 7.5% bonus to Armor Repairer effectiveness per level repair bonus and 15m3 drone bay and bandwidth (not 5m3). All assault frigates should also have a generic role bonus of +25% afterburner speed boost as was discussed a long time ago. In addition to this I believe ships smaller then cruisers should get an additional 10% reduction in sig radius.
Sharp Wind	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:00:00 - [545] Supported!
Manique Ominous Corp	Posted - 2011.06.28 08:33:00 - [546] Edited by: Manique on 28/06/2011 08:33:43 /supported
Marcus Vorenius Task Force 42	Posted - 2011.06.28 08:46:00 - [547] I can't believe I haven't voted here ealier - absolutely! Twitter: #evepeasants "The No Ahole Rule" and Ahole Rating Self-Exam (ARSE)
Ltd SpacePig FISKL GUARDS RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.07.24 11:12:00 - [548] The Assult Frigates needs some love :)
Shadow Lord77	Posted - 2011.07.24 17:44:00 - [549] Voted for this in July 2011 CSM crowdsourcing.
Dave Auscent	Posted - 2011.07.25 16:39:00 - [550] +1

Lathrael Ironclaw Industries - Freelance CO	Posted - 2011.07.25 21:14:00 - [551] Edited by: Lathrael on 25/07/2011 21:15:29 +1
ThekeeperOfTheCrypt Caldari Ignorant Of Science	Posted - 2011.07.28 17:32:00 - [552] do it supported
Navique Darkstar	Posted - 2011.07.31 21:32:00 - [553] supported. T2 frigs are somewhat poor choice now.
g0ldfinger07	Posted - 2011.08.01 06:58:00 - [554] /supported
Fayetal	Posted - 2011.08.01 07:44:00 - [555] /supported
Toovhon	Posted - 2011.08.01 13:13:00 - [556] Darn straight - AFs need some love. Right now it's often more worthwhile to fly an interceptor or T1/faction frigate instead. -- The Door!
Mamut Arbosa Minmatar	Posted - 2011.08.01 18:49:00 - [557] Edited by: Mamut Arbosa on 01/08/2011 18:49:29 /supported
Junnichi Asakura	Posted - 2011.08.02 12:16:00 - [558] Oh god yes. I'm eagerly awaiting this to happen as it's a Top 10 'most wanted' :)
Tethys Atreides The Audacity of Huge	Posted - 2011.08.02 21:40:00 - [559] For the love of God, YES!
ConranAntoni Caldari Empyrean Warriors The Obsidian Front	Posted - 2011.08.02 22:10:00 - [560] Supported. "is a draek train like a train of dragons????"

Spartis Reave Gallente Applied Creations	Posted - 2011.08.02 23:14:00 - [561] supported
INordaas	Posted - 2011.08.13 19:40:00 - [562] /supported


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