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Tekki Sandan
Gallente
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Aggression.
   |
Posted - 2009.05.14 14:06:00 -
[1]
Local chat in 0.0 at the moment is being used as an early warning system for people to know when hostiles are comming. It was not the intention of the system to be used as an early warning system as it is currently.
0.0 Is ment to have a serious danger aspect and at the moment there is very little danger for the massive rewards of the isk farmers that are all over 0.0.
My suggestion is a 2 minute delay on local chat updating. This will make ratters have to pay attention to intel channels, there directional scanner and also make them have to align, have warp outs and safe spots. Thus making it proper gameplay other than something you can do semi afk over 2-3 accounts.
Also, it would cut down on the lag generated by the constant updates. And I'm sure most will agree less lag would be a welcome sight in eve.
As a result CCP dont have to go and change the way rats function to make it more challenging it will already be more challenging if this change is brought into effect.
Summary:
2minute local chat update delay. Allowing for 0.0 to function as intended and stop the local chat window being used as an early warning system.
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Evlyna
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Posted - 2009.05.14 14:15:00 -
[2]
Here we go... again.
No! Not until a mechanic is introduced OTHER than spamming the scan button every 5 seconds.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.05.14 14:28:00 -
[3]
Yeah I hear 0.0 is positively overflowing with "ISK farmers".
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Nebularis
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Posted - 2009.05.14 16:27:00 -
[4]
Hmm very transparent...
What you really mean is that you want a way to enter a system and get the jump on ratters before they warp off to a safe spot.
I have one thing to say to this: Lrn2probe
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.14 16:36:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Nebularis
Hmm very transparent...
What you really mean is that you want a way to enter a system and get the jump on ratters before they warp off to a safe spot.
I have one thing to say to this: Lrn2probe
New ratting macros/bots (whatever you call em) warp your ship to safespot and cloak as soon as local jumps by set amount of people (be it even +1 new local). Thus "learn2probe" doesnt work against em at all. Only way you can catch em is either pray he gets scrambled by rats (some farmers use WCS tho) or catch him at belt when he is still landing.
bots>human skills unfortunately.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.05.14 17:36:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Nebularis
Hmm very transparent...
What you really mean is that you want a way to enter a system and get the jump on ratters before they warp off to a safe spot.
I have one thing to say to this: Lrn2probe
New ratting macros/bots (whatever you call em) warp your ship to safespot and cloak as soon as local jumps by set amount of people (be it even +1 new local). Thus "learn2probe" doesnt work against em at all. Only way you can catch em is either pray he gets scrambled by rats (some farmers use WCS tho) or catch him at belt when he is still landing.
bots>human skills unfortunately.
Great, then let's remove local so all legitimate players can click scan every five seconds even though the macros will soon automate that as well.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
To mare
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Posted - 2009.05.14 17:44:00 -
[7]
Edited by: To mare on 14/05/2009 17:46:41
there are other people in 0.0 that are not isk farmers and they wont be happy getting their ratting/mission ships blowed every time a hostile gang jump in.
and no scanner isnt a answer making isk is already boring enough no need extra hassle to keep spamming scan button
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Grista
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Posted - 2009.05.14 20:07:00 -
[8]
Originally by: To mare
Edited by: To mare on 14/05/2009 17:50:41
there are other people in 0.0 that are not isk farmers and they wont be happy getting their ratting/mission ships blowed every time a hostile gang jump in.
and no scanner isnt a answer making isk is already boring enough no need extra hassle to keep spamming scan button.
if you remove local (2 min delay its like removing it) isk farmers bot will adapt with new macros that check scanner and you wont be able to catch them anyway while the ppl that want to play fairly (w/o bots) will leave the place cause its not more worth to stay there so you will lose even more possible targets.
This is spot on. If 0.0 ever gets delayed local, I simply won't rat anymore.
Also, looking at killboards of many 0.0 alliances, it's very apparent there are plenty of targets out there waiting to be killed who don't have their eyes glued to local.
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arbiter reborn
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Posted - 2009.05.14 20:47:00 -
[9]
fact is 0.0 is almost safer than highsec, just pay attention to local and make 50 mill an hour ratting with close to no chance of being caought, it shouldnt be that way
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Tekki Sandan
Gallente
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Aggression.
|
Posted - 2009.05.14 21:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: arbiter reborn
fact is 0.0 is almost safer than highsec, just pay attention to local and make 50 mill an hour ratting with close to no chance of being caought, it shouldnt be that way
I agree with this statment. 0.0 should not be as it is now.
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Thercon Jair
Minmatar
Nex Exercitus
Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.05.14 21:32:00 -
[11]
Yes, it is, again, a thing that needs careful thought before implement something new.
There were once system scanning arrays. How if you would make it, that, if you have a certain sovereignity level, the scanning array would act as kind of an early warning system. But only if you are in the system itself.
And as for new bots using the directional scanner to warp off when they pick something up. Leave an empty ship somewhere in system, at a POS, and the bot would cloak up and stop ratting. You couldn't kill him, but you'd at least keep him from ratting. Or, at least, you could catch them with cloaking ships, and then send in a non cloaker with DPS to kill him off.
It's no fun to get cursed at in chinese and made fun of, because you simply can't catch them. Best thing I accomplished was accidentally running into a hauler with 4 giant secure cans filled to the brim with paradise cruise missiles. The ratters themselves don't need to travel and can stay in a system, warp off and cloak up as soon as something enters local.
I mean, my god, I even find it myself ridiculous how easily you can avoid being catched at all.
But, probably, farmers would adapt and search for a nice backwater system with 1-2 gates and just put cloaked alts at the gates...
*sighs* it's not an easy issue.
Real men do it the hard way: fly Minmatar! |
Fulber
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Posted - 2009.05.14 21:41:00 -
[12]
Originally by: arbiter reborn
fact is 0.0 is almost safer than highsec, just pay attention to local and make 50 mill an hour ratting with close to no chance of being caought, it shouldnt be that way
You're right, 0.0 is almost as safe as highsec.
So, remind us all what Control Towers, Dreadnaughts and Sovereignty are for. |
Altair Mogwa
Amok.
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Posted - 2009.05.14 21:45:00 -
[13]
Talk about an uber boost to recons/coverts if this ever happened.
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Lady Aja
Caldari
Eradication Project
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Posted - 2009.05.15 10:20:00 -
[14]
sad sad sad troll..
what works for you also works against you.
the quick roaming gang now becoem a crawl as you search hi n low for a target..
Jump into system > scan/probe > wait.. scan.. wait.. scan wait.. ( 5 minutes later ) dammit system is empty...
now youre happily flying along in 0.0.. and you dont see anyone in local coz its in delay mode... youwarp to the gate. a hic decloaks and drops a bubble, followed by his mates in recons. you jump system.. you cant tell he also has mates on other side because some aggro **** asked for delayed mode in 0.0
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.15 10:48:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Lady Aja
sad sad sad troll..
what works for you also works against you.
the quick roaming gang now becoem a crawl as you search hi n low for a target..
Jump into system > scan/probe > wait.. scan.. wait.. scan wait.. ( 5 minutes later ) dammit system is empty...
now youre happily flying along in 0.0.. and you dont see anyone in local coz its in delay mode... youwarp to the gate. a hic decloaks and drops a bubble, followed by his mates in recons. you jump system.. you cant tell he also has mates on other side because some aggro **** asked for delayed mode in 0.0
and whats so bad about it? defenders prepared trap = kudos to them.
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Selassie M
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Posted - 2009.05.15 10:54:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Selassie M on 15/05/2009 10:54:32
It's ideas like this that, if applied, that break completely a game.
Talking of massive reward someone makes by farming in 0.0, in average systems it must be about 10M to 20hour.
I don't call that a massive reward, considering that not paying attention 5 minutes to local while you're reading a forum or such can lead to a quick death. And it happens eveyday.
Plus your idea would break the best part of eve imo, roaming with fast ships in hostile territory. How would you pick up a target? Seriously?
Gate fires, no idea who entered system, bubble up? Oh noes we bubbled a blue. Seriously, we see you're living in high sec and jealous of the isk you think we make in 0.0, which is untrue.
Sad sad troll.
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Stryker347
Caldari
Hybrid Industrial
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Posted - 2009.05.15 10:58:00 -
[17]
No
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Elisabeth Dakar
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Posted - 2009.05.15 11:00:00 -
[18]
In the current state i dont think delayed local would work in 0.0 or lowsec. It worls fine in wormhole space because the are a few mechanics that differ from known space. That are:
- In wh-space you have to scan for every content that is available. Yur enemys have enough prewarn time to bring back your hulk to a save pos for example. You can not just use your directional scanner like in known space to determine the position of your targets.
- Wh-space is still very empty. More empty than 0.0.
- Entering a wh-system is pretty riskless because you spawn in jumping range of the wormhole. So its easy to have a first look into the system.
- Connections to k-space are random. If you live in w-space you will never meet the same groups over and over again.
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Dart Sirius
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Posted - 2009.05.15 11:04:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Selassie M
Edited by: Selassie M on 15/05/2009 10:54:32
It's ideas like this that, if applied, that break completely a game.
Talking of massive reward someone makes by farming in 0.0, in average systems it must be about 10M to 20hour.
I don't call that a massive reward, considering that not paying attention 5 minutes to local while you're reading a forum or such can lead to a quick death. And it happens eveyday.
Plus your idea would break the best part of eve imo, roaming with fast ships in hostile territory. How would you pick up a target? Seriously?
Gate fires, no idea who entered system, bubble up? Oh noes we bubbled a blue. Seriously, we see you're living in high sec and jealous of the isk you think we make in 0.0, which is untrue.
Sad sad troll.
I agree. This will break all 0.0 and make almost impossible to do anything there.
If you think you can make that much isk/hour with ratting then better go and try it yourself... the most of the systems in 0.0 are crap for ratting the better ones are always occupied and can feed max 1-2 players not like the unlimited LVL4 missions in safe highsec.
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Wacktopia
Infinity Miners Union
Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr
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Posted - 2009.05.15 11:24:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tekki Sandan
Local chat in 0.0 at the moment is being used as an early warning system for people to know when hostiles are comming. It was not the intention of the system to be used as an early warning system as it is currently.
0.0 Is ment to have a serious danger aspect and at the moment there is very little danger for the massive rewards of the isk farmers that are all over 0.0.
My suggestion is a 2 minute delay on local chat updating. This will make ratters have to pay attention to intel channels, there directional scanner and also make them have to align, have warp outs and safe spots. Thus making it proper gameplay other than something you can do semi afk over 2-3 accounts.
Also, it would cut down on the lag generated by the constant updates. And I'm sure most will agree less lag would be a welcome sight in eve.
As a result CCP dont have to go and change the way rats function to make it more challenging it will already be more challenging if this change is brought into effect.
Summary:
2minute local chat update delay. Allowing for 0.0 to function as intended and stop the local chat window being used as an early warning system.
It's not that hard to catch people in 0.0. Perhaps if you are solo but not in a small team. Just gaurd up the gates and stick a bubble at the warp-in points for the belt they were in before going to their safe spot. They'll get bored and warp back to zero and then you pop them. Or alternatively probe them out.
Even if you did delay local by 2 minutes the "isk farmer" could just sit aligned to their safe spot and insta-warp the moment you appear in the belt? How would you deal with that?
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Verys
The Black Ops
Black Core Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.15 11:35:00 -
[21]
Hello Mr. Sandan 
I don't agree with a 2 minute delay to local but I think it could be subjected to change. As you propose now means that pvpers get a huge advantage over ratters as you can check the system within a blink and the ratters have to spam the scan button every second to check if there is a possible threat. This is neither fun or balanced.
The next best suggestion would be to have the directional scanner fully automated, this means you end up a same system as local only that you can't see who is flying it.
The only people you can't currently catch are people paying ATTENTION or botters, I have seen many people in my alliance getting killed by a solo HAC because they weren't paying attention to the game.
Oh and most people are paying attention because they don't want to lose their ships to some random guy getting easy kills in a belt, yes easy kills it's not really hard killing a battleship/battlecruiser in your HAC/Recon.
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Poreuomai
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.05.15 11:44:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Poreuomai on 15/05/2009 11:46:10
This may be very selfish of me, but instead I would like cloaked ships to be removed from local entirely (unless the pilot chats, of course).
It really annoys me that the whole solar system can see I'm present even though I am cloaked.
Let My People Go |
Wacktopia
Infinity Miners Union
Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr
|
Posted - 2009.05.15 11:46:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Poreuomai
Edited by: Poreuomai on 15/05/2009 11:45:52
This may be very selfish of me, but instead I would like cloaked ships to be removed from local entirely (unless the pilot chats, of course).
It really annoys me that the whole solar system can see I'm present even though I am cloaked.
Joking, right?
|
Juliette DuBois
|
Posted - 2009.05.15 11:51:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Poreuomai
Edited by: Poreuomai on 15/05/2009 11:46:10
This may be very selfish of me, but instead I would like cloaked ships to be removed from local entirely (unless the pilot chats, of course).
It really annoys me that the whole solar system can see I'm present even though I am cloaked.
Then everyone would fly ships with cloaks. Heck if you were chased by a gang and you punched cloak midwarp to a safespot they would have no way of knowing where you went or if you just cloaked. Any local change has to treat all targets equally OR it has to come with penalties that offset any advantages.
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Poreuomai
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.05.18 08:35:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Wacktopia
Joking, right?
No, I was serious when I said my idea was very selfish.
Let My People Go |
Zaheera
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.05.18 08:56:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Stryker347
No
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Vigaz
|
Posted - 2009.05.18 09:11:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Tekki Sandan
Local chat in 0.0 at the moment is being used as an early warning system for people to know when hostiles are comming. It was not the intention of the system to be used as an early warning system as it is currently.
0.0 Is ment to have a serious danger aspect and at the moment there is very little danger for the massive rewards of the isk farmers that are all over 0.0.
My suggestion is a 2 minute delay on local chat updating. This will make ratters have to pay attention to intel channels, there directional scanner and also make them have to align, have warp outs and safe spots. Thus making it proper gameplay other than something you can do semi afk over 2-3 accounts.
Also, it would cut down on the lag generated by the constant updates. And I'm sure most will agree less lag would be a welcome sight in eve.
As a result CCP dont have to go and change the way rats function to make it more challenging it will already be more challenging if this change is brought into effect.
Summary:
2minute local chat update delay. Allowing for 0.0 to function as intended and stop the local chat window being used as an early warning system.
I would like to see delayed local chat in null sec, but 2 mins it's a lot of time.
30 secs delay should be tested in sisi.
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MukkBarovian
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Posted - 2009.05.18 09:25:00 -
[28]
Stations with windows.
A semi automated scanner.
Then fine.
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Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.05.18 09:26:00 -
[29]
No.
Local is fine, period.
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Lewyrus
Jugis Modo Utopia
Skunk-Works
|
Posted - 2009.05.18 10:34:00 -
[30]
Erm, no.
Not until we have a method of gaining similar level intel.
Also, might I ask you two thing: do you play this game with local minimized? Have you tried localless play other than w-space?
I'm seriously interested in this; does the make-local-delayed-in-0.0-or-everywhere bandwagon considering that it could backfire?
Originally by: Thercon Jair
There were once system scanning arrays. How if you would make it, that, if you have a certain sovereignity level, the scanning array would act as kind of an early warning system. But only if you are in the system itself.
If you tie this to Sov somehow that would give defenders/sovholders an unfair advantage. And there are NPC regions as well.
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Rordan D'Kherr
Amarr
|
Posted - 2009.05.18 10:46:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Tekki Sandan
Local chat in 0.0 at the moment is being used as an early warning system for people to know when hostiles are comming.
...and has ever been.
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Aylara
|
Posted - 2009.05.18 11:49:00 -
[32]
Yup, delay local in 0.0, but let us see the allies (blues) or at least our own alliance members.
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TimMc
Gallente
Brutal Deliverance
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Posted - 2009.05.18 12:16:00 -
[33]
Only delay local if they significantly boost 0.0, otherwise NO ONE will rat.
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Die Kutte
|
Posted - 2009.05.18 14:43:00 -
[34]
I dont want a chatwindow telling my enemies that i am there, who i am, what my history is ect.. and i dont want to be able to know that of my enemies entering system. It has to become more realistic. I am sure game-designers can figure out an alternate way for people to find out who else is in the system other than just taking a look at a chatwindow.
Those could be linked to soverainty, for example include the gates themselves as part of a system. You enter a system, you will have to identify (by standings or something) and appear in local. If you refuse to identify everyone belonging to system-owner get a message that some stranger entered system.
Just an example, i am sure there are ways to get rid of this stupid local-warning-system. It just kills the dynamics of an otherwise great game, takes out the thrill.
Roam around through all 0.0-regions and you will find 70% of it populated by 1 raven per system making its 40 mio ISK per hour and being absolutely safe from enemies just because it has a bot controlling it 24/7 using the local as main warning system.
It needs to be changed
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NL Nataku
Manson Family
|
Posted - 2009.05.18 17:54:00 -
[35]
I am for making it just like wormhole space but i can also see the frustration of hitting the scan buttom every 5 seconds.
Why not let a alliance/corp with sov in a system put up something like a scanner wich will warn all members of the alliance if a enemy presence has been detected in the system. The only exceptions would be coverts ops and blackops and maybe recons ships since they are suppose to be covert but right now there is not much covert about them since everybody will know when they are in a system now.
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Wet Ferret
|
Posted - 2009.05.18 22:35:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Dart Sirius
If you think you can make that much isk/hour with ratting then better go and try it yourself... the most of the systems in 0.0 are crap for ratting the better ones are always occupied and can feed max 1-2 players not like the unlimited LVL4 missions in safe highsec.
Though I'm very much against removal of local (under current mechanics)... keep pretending that 0.0 isn't profitable  .
Originally by: NL Nataku
I am for making it just like wormhole space but i can also see the frustration of hitting the scan buttom every 5 seconds.
Why not let a alliance/corp with sov in a system put up something like a scanner wich will warn all members of the alliance if a enemy presence has been detected in the system. The only exceptions would be coverts ops and blackops and maybe recons ships since they are suppose to be covert but right now there is not much covert about them since everybody will know when they are in a system now.
So only players in NPC space get to spam the scanner every 5 seconds. How pleasant for them.
Originally by: MukkBarovian
Stations with windows.
An obvious and absolutely necessary feature if this were to ever go live.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
NL Nataku
Manson Family
|
Posted - 2009.05.19 04:59:00 -
[37]
Edited by: NL Nataku on 19/05/2009 04:59:22
Originally by: Dart Sirius
So only players in NPC space get to spam the scanner every 5 seconds. How pleasant for them.
We are we not talking about empire space if the feature was also to be implanted into empire space then another way can be found but where do you see people discussion empire space this is about local chat in 0.0 not empire.
|
King Rothgar
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
|
Posted - 2009.05.19 05:10:00 -
[38]
Make local a recent speakers list just like w-space. Also, replace the scanner with radar that has similar functionality (can have arc/range adjusted). Radar does not detect cloaked ships. Anyone opposed to this idea?
---------------------------------------------
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Wet Ferret
|
Posted - 2009.05.19 05:32:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Wet Ferret on 19/05/2009 05:32:20
Originally by: NL Nataku
Edited by: NL Nataku on 19/05/2009 04:59:22
Originally by: Dart Sirius
So only players in NPC space get to spam the scanner every 5 seconds. How pleasant for them.
We are we not talking about empire space if the feature was also to be implanted into empire space then another way can be found but where do you see people discussion empire space this is about local chat in 0.0 not empire.
Where did I say anything about empire?
Originally by: King Rothgar
Anyone opposed to this idea?
CCP doesn't like the idea of automatically updating scanners due to the constant database calls, apparently.
And pretty much anyone who rats/mines in 0.0 would hate not being able to see if a recon was coming. It's not like you even need scan probes to find them, just warp from belt to belt for free kills  (or use the directional scanner even)
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Die Kutte
|
Posted - 2009.05.19 08:02:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Die Kutte on 19/05/2009 08:02:40
I dont want to see it coming, its a recon :P You need several force recons to take down a ratter fast so there is time to call for help.
Or as I said, link sov with gatefire-intel or something so as a system-owner you know there is someone stranger in system.
I like the automated radar-idea, thats what i think it should be like. Sure, in neutral space or enemy space you dont see the recons coming, but it should be more dangerous there right?
That would get rid of most isk-bots for at the moment they are not in their own territory farming all day.
Dont underestimate the players ability to adapt. Lots of people will complain if you remove easy-detect-local and will say they cant rat anymore, but after a while they will have their ways to still make money by just reorganizing, the way it should be like.
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Poreuomai
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2009.05.19 08:29:00 -
[41]
Originally by: NL Nataku
Why not let a alliance/corp with sov in a system put up something like a scanner wich will warn all members of the alliance if a enemy presence has been detected in the system. The only exceptions would be coverts ops and blackops and maybe recons ships since they are suppose to be covert but right now there is not much covert about them since everybody will know when they are in a system now.
I like that idea, as it also give a huge advantage to the sov holders and it would be a challenge for people like me infiltrating other alliance's space.
Originally by: Wet Ferret
So only players in NPC space get to spam the scanner every 5 seconds. How pleasant for them.
How about the local changes only happen in sov systems where the alliance has installed such a scanner?
The backstory explanation would be that the sov holder can choose to restrict local information but then also looses the ability to see enemey covo-ops ships.
Let My People Go |
Wet Ferret
|
Posted - 2009.05.19 11:58:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Poreuomai
Originally by: Wet Ferret
So only players in NPC space get to spam the scanner every 5 seconds. How pleasant for them.
How about the local changes only happen in sov systems where the alliance has installed such a scanner?
The backstory explanation would be that the sov holder can choose to restrict local information but then also looses the ability to see enemey covo-ops ships.
That sounds reasonable. If a sov holding entity chooses to jam their own local, sure why not. Though, I question if it would even be worth implementing with such a restriction.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
|
Posted - 2009.05.19 15:13:00 -
[43]
Ppl usually dont like to get a toy removed, so there is lots of whining, even when the replacement toy would be much more exciting.
The problem should be split into two aspects:
a) Local should be removed everywhere.
Local gives too much instant intel, its overpowered and boring like hell as it is now. (Dont flame now, read on and start thinking)
b) Intel should be added in a scalable way as a seperate gameplay element.
It could be done by a new group of modules/scripts/probes/deployables, each one with different capabilities and range.
The most simple ones should give friend or foe proximity warning with limited range like directional scanner.
The most powerful ones should give you full system range along with most informations, but would cause the ship unable to move and show a cyno-style warpable 'kill me here' beacon on the overview.
Let's look on the real-world radar transponder functionality first:
Together with the radar ping there is a code transmitted which identify's the radar source to those who know this code. Depending on that code, the target chooses either to send an encoded answer (if the source is recognized as 'friend') or not to sent an answer (if the target cannot tell if the ping was sent by a trusted source).
The transponder answer is received by the source together with the radar echo, it now can identify the target as a friend (correct answer), or the target was silent, in this case the source will asssign a 'foe' tag to that echo.
Usually the transponder answer (if sent) also contains additional information about the vessel, encoded in public readable and encrypted fields.
The real-world radar transponder functionality could be imitated and extended ingame:
This could look like this: Depending on standing to eachother, own fleet membership, allied fleet membership, security status or other attributes, source and target exchange intel information. This could be name, ship id, ship type, exact ship location, <insert cool things here>. Each answer condition/info should be configurable, so even friendly ships within the same fleet might choose to hide their location/type/whatever, to prevent to become vulnerable to spies.
This transponder network could then also be used to transfer additional information about own ship to friendly ships, like system enter/leave, jump destination, current flightplan, distress call, request for assistance, intel about ships currently attacking the own ship, etc.
The source collects that intel and, depending on ship/module/scripts capabilities and state it forwards it to other friendly/fleet/public (configurable) ships. This could be used e.g on a scanning ship to show the pilot name, ship type and location of friendly ships in the scan results, so the foes ship-id's can be easy identified. On the other hand, a scout who was able to scan the foes location and warps cloaked there is now close enough to identify exact ship type, pilot name, etc and feeds back this intel automatically into the network, so all connected ships will have access to that information together with ship-id, instead just to show the ship-id only.
If you think about it, you will find lots of options how this could be scaled and extended - e.g. allow to change the ship-id under some situations like onlining/offlining/swapping modules or direct id change when in range of a ship maint service, so tracking gets more tricky but has drawbacks for the one who wants to slip off his id.
There would still be intel, and it would be much more fun to play with. There would just not be that overpowered 'intel for free' everywhere, anytime, for everybody, like it is now.
Nerf of local chat is a buff to gameplay!
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Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.05.19 16:27:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 19/05/2009 16:29:03
Nerf local means more realism. Realism means less fun. So nerf local means less fun.
Most of the proposals to compensate the nerf of local always create a counter-part.
For exemple, the scanner who would give intel only to the alliance who have the sovereignty (NL Nataku proposition). Today, POS mechanics make defenders already hard to destroy. This kind of intel would only make the defender more stronger than ever, so it will amplify the political immobilism in EvE.
The idea of Ausser is "Choose between limited intel, or total intel but you will have a "Kill Me" alarm in Overview" is also bad. This would generate a mass amount of calculation for the server, and more data to the client. Also, let me choice "Go back in Empire", as it would correct none of the classical problems : The hunted is screwed, and the hunter will have more difficulties to find targets. This would only help for fleet battles, not for small roamings or individual needs.
Also, I don't manage to find how it could be fun.
Players can whine to ask about a local removal, but this don't remove one fact :
Local is fine, period.
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Local is fine, period. |
Cyrana Bergerac
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Posted - 2009.05.19 17:04:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
New ratting macros/bots (whatever you call em) warp your ship to safespot and cloak as soon as local jumps by set amount of people (be it even +1 new local). Thus "learn2probe" doesnt work against em at all. Only way you can catch em is either pray he gets scrambled by rats (some farmers use WCS tho) or catch him at belt when he is still landing.
bots>human skills unfortunately.
very important notice. If you know more about it plz make it public!
These alleged bots are not new. I know this **** for years. It is sad, but I have to say, they are in Angel space, Inmother, Detorid, Scalding Pass very present. There are many Russians and Chinese, or they want to look like them by writing Russian or Chinese. These ratting ships act all with the same pattern. It is almost impossible to catch one of them. It is very frustrating, how fast these things cloak or log off. You never catch one of them afk, never.
The only good thing is, if you try to catch them for a while, it is a very good exercise in scanning and you will be amazed often you land in i.e. the North, where the ratting ships are controlled by human players, in the right belt.
There is a really big difference. I would love to see this exploit closed. Of course it should be in a way, that human ratters and miners will still be quite save. Otherwise everybody starts missions. Most of the time lvl 4 missions give better isks anyways.
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Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.05.19 17:49:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Sky Marshal
For exemple, the scanner who would give intel only to the alliance who have the sovereignty (NL Nataku proposition). Today, POS mechanics make defenders already hard to destroy. This kind of intel would only make the defender more stronger than ever, so it will amplify the political immobilism in EvE.
Aye. An anchored pos array which provides total intel is overpowered, so i didnt suggested it. It's invulnerable because it cannot be broken - that's because any ally would anchor *lots* of these arrays.
Also intel should never be 'total'. In my suggestion you would be able to see everything about your friendly ships (if they allow it) or just the ship id of foes untill they have been identified by a scout. If you want also the locations of the foes, then you can either a) scan them down and identify them like now, or b) set up 4 super-total-intel-ships in a manner like probes need to be set up, and let them permanently send their results to the fleet/friendlies/public. But they still have either limited range or limited accuracy/sensitivity (like probes) - and are verry vulnerable because of their overview beacon and because you have to split your forces to protect them.
Another important point is, you get NO INTEL AT ALL if you dont have pilots with such modules who activeley fly them in the system. If you go into a system with no intel pilots, then you are blind unless you fit intel modules on your own ship.
If you are solo hunting victims, then a probe launcher will still provide you the anonymous ship id's. When you jump there, your client remembers the id<->pilot relation and you can see it's name/ship type/whatever in scanner next time. You have better chance to find him again when he escapes.
On the other hand, if you are ratting, you dont want to be caught without warning. So you would lauch e.g. something like a proximity probe nearby, it would alter you about objects coming closer. But it's range would be limited and delay would be significant. Since you used a cheap one, it does not tell you if it's friend or foe. Alternativeley you use ship-fitted proximity alert modules wich have better range and less delay, but they cost you one slot and cap to operate. The better they are the harder to fit/orperate they should be.
Quote:
The idea of Ausser is "Choose between limited intel, or total intel but you will have a "Kill Me" alarm in Overview" is also bad. This would generate a mass amount of calculation for the server, and more data to the client.
It will not cause much calculation.
Ship locations for friendly ships are just updated and transferred to the client when the target warps from one grid to another. That's allready ingame for fleets (take a look on your system map while in space with a fleet, you can see your buddies in space). Four anchored super-total-intel-ships would extend calculations & traffic just to foe vessels, if they are in range, like it is now with the probing system. And this data would also not be real-time but updated every few seconds to minutes and just if a target is really moving from one grid to another.
One message per target would be broadcasted to all listening clients for ships which are identifyed by a scout because he scans them down while he can see them. This would also just happen once. Once they are known to all listeners, this information does not need to be rebroadcasted.
One beacon on overview, that's also not much trafic. it's turned on and cannot move. After a while it's turned off again because it expired or someone ganked the intel ship.
Most of the information to implement such mechanics is transferred to the client either (pilot name, ship type, etc). More database calls than are allready present would not be needed, the cluster node knows everything about all pilots in system either.
Why not split intel and chat?
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Takakura Hirohito
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Posted - 2009.05.19 20:59:00 -
[47]
Local chat is good as it is. Sure, it's not realistic, but neither is a ship slowing after the mwd is turned off. If you want to create a pain-in-the-butt mechanic by making people hit their scan button 10 times a minute, then you are on the right track.
The only sensible option (and this just increases realism) is to create a 'long-distance scanner' window that is alway on and updated, with a range of 500 au or something.
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Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.05.19 22:24:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Takakura Hirohito
If you want to create a pain-in-the-butt mechanic by making people hit their scan button 10 times a minute, then you are on the right track.
Nobody would like it, it's out of question.
Originally by: Takakura Hirohito
The only sensible option (and this just increases realism) is to create a 'long-distance scanner' window that is alway on and updated, with a range of 500 au or something.
That's the way in the right direction. Let's pick it up and look on some aspects:
This longrange scanner would scary ratters/miners each time a friendly ship shows up, because it cannot distinguish between friend and foe if it is like directional scanner. So add basic FoF capability to make ratters/miners happy.
Now it's like a better local, which hides the name of foe for some more thrill and a good reason to scan for what came into the system. Not bad.
To give cov ops cloaked ships a slight chance to slip through without notice, it should have a little delay, so they can turn on cloak at the gate/cyno or launch some probes. Let's say 5 seconds on conventional ships and 1 minute for cov ops cloaked ships. The exact number of foes gets hidden that way. More thrill.
Let's assume, every ratter/miner has one of these scanners fitted+running all the time. Then a foe would have absolute no chance to find his victim fast enough. The probes would show up on the scanner, would be identified to belong 'foe' and the ratter/miner warps out to safe spot and cloaks. It should not be that easy - correct? Maybe this device should not show probes at all.
On the other hand - it does not matter for the ratter/miner if there are foes in the system, maybe tey arent after him at all because the follow their own dark plans. He does not need this full-featured-longrange-scanner which would make him scary. Another device would be sufficient for him, like a proximity warning module, which logs in a list when a probe comes close or a ship is opening a warp channel which will end close to his position. The warning time should be long enough to allow to warp out if properly aligned and at speed, but too short to escape if semi-afk - like alt+tab on another account or chatting or <insert popular afk/inattentiveness reason here>. The point is now: this device will do it's job and save his ship, but it will not provide more intel than that. To get more intel, one of the guys in the system would have to fit a suitable intel module, like that described above - if they dont, but need that intel, then it's their fault.
That would be two kind of intel modules. Think about other intel modules/scripts/deployables - how could they be like? The world could become more interesting, thrilling and fun to play - and it would become balancable by the devs - the current local chat channel intel is not balancable at all.
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Robot Robot
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Posted - 2009.05.20 03:22:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Die Kutte
I dont want a chatwindow telling my enemies that i am there, who i am, what my history is ect.. and i dont want to be able to know that of my enemies entering system. It has to become more realistic. I am sure game-designers can figure out an alternate way for people to find out who else is in the system other than just taking a look at a chatwindow.
Those could be linked to soverainty, for example include the gates themselves as part of a system. You enter a system, you will have to identify (by standings or something) and appear in local. If you refuse to identify everyone belonging to system-owner get a message that some stranger entered system.
Just an example, i am sure there are ways to get rid of this stupid local-warning-system. It just kills the dynamics of an otherwise great game, takes out the thrill.
Roam around through all 0.0-regions and you will find 70% of it populated by 1 raven per system making its 40 mio ISK per hour and being absolutely safe from enemies just because it has a bot controlling it 24/7 using the local as main warning system.
It needs to be changed
this is GOOD.
I very much like the idea of a local that tells you HOWS MANY people are in system but not WHO they are (unless they have the auto-identify flag set or they talk in local). This brings the excitement and uncertainty of a delayed local without the need to be constantly riding the directional scanner. |
thebold
MASS
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Posted - 2009.05.20 10:45:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
So only players in NPC space get to spam the scanner every 5 seconds. How pleasant for them.
I don't exactly know why a 3 year old nub alt would even care about 0.0 game play changes but I for once hit the scan button every 2 seconds in 0.0 as a force of habit, the scanner is the ESSENTIAL 0.0 tool, and introducing a local nerf in any way shape or form will essentially be the best game play change since CASTOR.
That or just make 0.0 frigates scramble ratters in belts, that worked a treat a while ago just as well... 0.0 seriously is safer then empire in so many ways.
It is a very simple mechanic in EVE for alliances to survive, they survive in numbers that inhabit any area, can produce isk and local industry from belts and when alliances can only undock in large gangs to fight an enemy it starts the average down fall of alliances through bickering carebears that then leave to find the next spot to rat drastically reducing the size of an alliance and so on and so on...
In current eve 0.0 it is extremely hard to flush out said care bears not because the PVPer gets a cheap thrill from killing someone in a belt... but the simple fact that if they keep returning they will die time after time.
Currently this leads to the fact PVPers are left with the problem that they can only attack POS's because they are the only static thing (that ratters hide behind too) that don't have the option to warp out... I mean what is CCP going to implement next? Warping POS battle stars so we can have 2 POS's shooting each other with a fleet inside each one :P
A bit like a kindersuprise with a load of toys inside!:)
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Die Kutte
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Posted - 2009.05.20 13:09:00 -
[51]
People here saying local is fine like it is are lacking imagination.
Sure everyone has gotten used to it, and obviously developers have never taken efforts to change it, but that doesnt mean it is a good thing.
Its a chat-channel, nothing more. What if the CCP hat right from the start created it as a chatwindow only without showing a memberlist? Had people then come up with "Hey make it so everyone who is in system appears in local immediately!"? I dont think so.
They had yelled for a way to find out who else is in system and CCP would have implemented something for that.
I agree that hitting the directional scan button every few seconds is a pain and should not be the only way to find out about enemies. Actually i think directional is a relict from old times and deserves a workover also, making it more handy to work with.
But thats not the point. People here have made suggestions about how it could be done, but they were just examples. CCP has many ways to implement new features, ships or whatever to compensate the need for local-intel. Just because the ideas here are not perfect to the end doesnt mean that it cannot be changed.
Most importantly people have to realize that a change in local would improve the game a lot
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Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.05.20 13:17:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Ausser
Also intel should never be 'total'. In my suggestion you would be able to see everything about your friendly ships (if they allow it) or just the ship id of foes untill they have been identified by a scout. If you want also the locations of the foes, then you can either a) scan them down and identify them like now, or b) set up 4 super-total-intel-ships in a manner like probes need to be set up, and let them permanently send their results to the fleet/friendlies/public. But they still have either limited range or limited accuracy/sensitivity (like probes) - and are verry vulnerable because of their overview beacon and because you have to split your forces to protect them.
Intel should be total in a game, as a game means fun.
Your proposition, honestly, just make PVP a pain in the ass.
EvE already requires to waste much time to be able to fly and fight. If finally, in fight, we have to do thirty things to be able to move without be blind, as there is nothing worse than be blind, I don't see how we can get fun.
This will only generate more frustration, specialy at the moment when the super-total-intel-ships will be destroyed, as they will be primary in no time. At this moment, everyone can be considered as dead. Is it fun ? I don't think so.
Also, ask to protect this ships, so split a fleet who has already some difficulties to be efficient same with 100 players, Hum...
I don't understand how some people can consider that more effort is fun, specialy on EvE. A game need to balance effort and difficulty, to give some competition and fun.
Local permit this balance.
Quote:
Four anchored super-total-intel-ships would extend calculations & traffic just to foe vessels, if they are in range, like it is now with the probing system. And this data would also not be real-time but updated every few seconds to minutes and just if a target is really moving from one grid to another.
Few seconds to minutes... A delayed intel, too much realistic, so not really great for efficiency or find targets. Also, this would mean a big lag spike for friends at each delay as they will receive new datas.
_______
Local is fine, period. |
Sexy Sinsation
Sexa Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.20 13:50:00 -
[53]
Make Constellation or Region chat function as Local does now. This way you can see who's in the Constellation or Region. Decent enough intel.
Then take Local away.
That way the those raters who use the Eve-Bot can get WTFBQPWNEDINYAFACEGOTYAASSTHISTIME!
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Darkerz Reloaded
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.20 17:43:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Sky Marshal
Local is fine, period.
Do you want me to take care of your period?
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Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.05.20 18:31:00 -
[55]
Sky, i understand your position. But it seems you missed something because of the heat of the fight in this nerf-buff-pvp.
Intel using the Local Channel Member List, like we use it now, is worse than what it could become when local goes away.
Look at the four systems we have now: Local, Directional Scanner, System Scanner and Overview. They work isolated of eachother. So you cannot see the pilot name in system scanner, even if you are spying cloaked in overview range of him. You also cannot see the ship-id in overview. You cannot transfer information you've gathered on your scout-trip to your fleet/allies/friendlies/public. Most what you can do, you must du manually per chat or teamspak and paper+pen.
How could the new intel system look like?
First, we need a user interface. We dont use the Local Chat Member List any more, it's gone. Let's add some new tabs to the scanner page. Let's call one of them 'System Intel'. Here we have a list of objects in space, with configurable columns similar to the overview. These columns could be:
pilot name
corp
ally
fleet
exact/last known location
ship type
ship name
need shield flag
need armor flag
warpable flag
distress call flag
timestamp of last contact
... <insert lots of cool columns to clobber your multi-widescreen-wall here> ...
This table shows results of all intel of accessible fleet/ally/corp/friendly/public ships/modules.
There is also a line telling you something like 'There are XXX unidentified contacts in system'. Maybe more on a seperate statistics page.
Other new tabs could be 'Distress Call Log' and 'Proximity Alert Log'. I think they are self-explanatory - can you imagine what's there?
To help with fleet operations like raids, roaming or homeland defense, another interstellar intel layer can be added. It would be the multi-system compilation of the data above, but needs additional effort (modules+ships) in the observed systems, and also a command ship in the fleet which collects and forwards this info to fleet members. It has limited interstellar communication range, so chains of either relais ships or deployable relais units are needed when two parts of the fleet are operating verry far away from eachother. This intel could also be shown on map.
The Modules
The functionality will be not built in the ship, like the directional scanner is now. Instead, you have to fit some kind of modules, launch probes or anchor deployable structures. These will provide specific functionality to yourself, your feet, allies or public, depending on how they are configured and which scripts are loaded.
Two examples were given above like 'Takakura's 500 AU Eagle Eye' and my 'Hello Kitty Proximity Panic Inhibitor'. These should be modules.
Another would be the 'Stalker's Exposition Interlink', which allows to publish pilot identity and ship type for ship-id's which were captured by your scout on sight range. This data is then avaiable to all fleet/ally/corp/friendly/publics in system. It could be a passive mid slot module, maybe loaded with some kind of script for configuration.
For interstellar fleet ops you will have a 'Tattletale Superiority Amplifier' on a ship in the system which schall have it's intel avaiable to the distant fleet. An optional 'Wold Domination Multiplexer' somewhere in the fleet allows everybody to access the intel of all of the observed systems at once. Without that relais your fleet would of cause just be able to listen to only one of these systems at a time. Or something like this...
<add more features here>
Still not convinced?
With the new system you could have something like buffed super local - but it requires effort. You dont get it for free.
Your fleet allready uses scouts, isn't it?
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Maren Jensen
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Posted - 2009.05.20 20:18:00 -
[56]
Quote:
No.
Local is fine, period.
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Jade TX
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Posted - 2009.05.20 20:19:00 -
[57]
No, Yes... No no... Yes YESS! How many people love to argue, it be the world. Ahh the irony. Just have it the same way like W-Space is. It will keep people in 0.0 on their toes and will boost the pvp area, like 0.0 is sipose to be all about. And give one on one fights more of a chance to happen solo.
Eve online is not blobs online. So don't start with this and that about eve is about who has the most people B'S. Its however you want to play it. Its a sandbox for everybody, not for you and your 1000 man gank to be the win button of eve.  It needs to be like this so people can't run and I can warp right on top of them wether they like it or not. And not run off to some safe spot like a good carebear. They risked going into 0.0 they pay the price. 
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