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Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
667
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:29:00 -
[121] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:TWHC Assistant wrote:Malcanis wrote:Compared to the previous alternative merely "slowed down" is incredibly much better.
Not that you care because you're just amusing yourself with your usual contrarian bullshit. That is not the point. I am still comparing it to no lag at all. You want to compare it to before TiDi? Do it, but it is irrelevant for how TiDi works. I am not deny its usefulness. I said I see it as a work-around. You might want to reread the thread before you start spitting your hate over it. Why compare it to no lag at all? That was never an option. Taking TiDi away doesn't take lag away.
Actually, taking TiDi away creates lag (in high traffic situations).
Remove TiDi and requests lag behind and don't get through.
It's not rocket surgery. |

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:30:00 -
[122] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:But you have to remember, if TiDi wasn't kicking in you would likely not have loaded system. You would have black screened upon jump, and you'd be sitting in your chair wondering if you had crashed or not. You would likely not have been able to log back in, sometimes for hours.
That's not lag.
Gypsio III wrote:But I'm sure that dozens of people have tried explaining this to you but you seem incapable of understandign that things could be worse than taking three minutes to warp from gate to gate. 
Warping wasn't problem and it didn't take more time than usually. Problem was it took 5 minutes to undock and 2+ minutes to jump to another system.
For example now my ship has been waiting 5+ minutes to undock. Could I at least get that slow motion video you guys are talking about. Would be great. |

Francisco Bizzaro
104
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:31:00 -
[123] - Quote
TWHC Assistant wrote:There is not much different if TiDi slows down time or if I go blank for 5 minutes. You will simply not get much done during that time. In the blank screen case, you have no idea what got done because you mash the keys and don't see a result. When the server finally decides to talk to you again (hopefully it hasn't crashed in the meantime) you will be in an undetermined state.
In the TiDi case, the load is managed more-or-less gracefully and things continue deterministically according to the commands you were slowly able to enter. This is better. |

Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
646
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:32:00 -
[124] - Quote
TWHC Assistant wrote:This is what a warning system does. Something happens and you get a warning. Not much of an early warning system.
TWHC Assistant wrote:Tippia wrote:It just slows the client (and server) simulations down. An artificially created lag. The responses of your client become slower and slower as TiDi increases. Nope. That's not lag. |

Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
646
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:33:00 -
[125] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:But you have to remember, if TiDi wasn't kicking in you would likely not have loaded system. You would have black screened upon jump, and you'd be sitting in your chair wondering if you had crashed or not. You would likely not have been able to log back in, sometimes for hours. That's not lag. What is it, then? |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1881
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:33:00 -
[126] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:But you have to remember, if TiDi wasn't kicking in you would likely not have loaded system. You would have black screened upon jump, and you'd be sitting in your chair wondering if you had crashed or not. You would likely not have been able to log back in, sometimes for hours. That's not lag.
Yes, actually, it is what happens during times of heavy lag.
If you haven't experienced it, you haven't experienced any form of serious lag.
The node hasn't crashed, it is still (struggling) to process it's back log of request, but it's choking. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |

Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
667
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:35:00 -
[127] - Quote
TWHC Assistant wrote:Tippia wrote:TWHC Assistant wrote:I agree that it can bee seen as such It not only GÇ£can be seen as suchGÇ¥ GÇö it's what it actually does. What it doesn't do is act as a warning system, since it only kick in after something has happened. This is what a warning system does. Something happens and you get a warning. Tippia wrote:It just slows the client (and server) simulations down. An artificially created lag. The responses of your client become slower and slower as TiDi increases. Tippia wrote:GǪaside from TiDi letting you do things at close to normal responsiveness, whereas blackscreens let you do absolutely nothing at zero responsiveness, meaning TiDi lets you play the game, which is different in every way from a black screen. The difference this makes in terms of success and achievement within the game is hardly different. You can do things during a black screen, too. You can switch to a browser and post on the forum.
Slow =/= lag.
TiDi = slow motion
Lag = Server trips, packets missed, requests lost, hanging, node crashes rubberbanding, black screens.
TiDi is not creating lag. It's solving lag. It fixes lag. If you remove TiDi in a high traffic situation, you are creating lag because the server falls behind and cannot keep up.
It's not an early warning system as you suggest. It's a 'keep pace with the requests so everyone's shots fire and warp requests get made".
Two COMPLETELY different things.
But keep posting... it's good!
It's not rocket surgery. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6682
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:35:00 -
[128] - Quote
TWHC Assistant wrote:This is what a warning system does. Something happens and you get a warning. GǪand TiDi doesn't do that. Also, if the warning comes afterwards, it's not early.
Quote:An artificially created lag. It's not lag. it's slow-motion. Your client does not respond more slowly GÇö quite the opposite.
Quote:The difference this makes in terms of success and achievement within the game is hardly different. GǪaside from TiDi letting you fight and succeed, whereas a black screen leaves you at the mercy of whomever didn't suffer the same fate. This makes TiDi different in every way from a black screen.
Zagdul wrote:But keep posting... it's good! No. It really isn't. But his posting does raise a questionGǪ
Hey Whitehound! Why aren't you posting as Whitehound? Did you get muzzled due to your compulsive and incessant trolling again? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:38:00 -
[129] - Quote
Zagdul wrote:TiDi = slow motion
I want to see slow motion of my ship undocking. Gets a bit boring to watch my ship still in hangar after 7+ minutes. |

Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
646
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:39:00 -
[130] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Zagdul wrote:TiDi = slow motion I want to see slow motion of my ship undocking. Gets a bit boring to watch my ship still in hangar after 7+ minutes. Not caused by TiDi. |

Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
667
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:39:00 -
[131] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:But you have to remember, if TiDi wasn't kicking in you would likely not have loaded system. You would have black screened upon jump, and you'd be sitting in your chair wondering if you had crashed or not. You would likely not have been able to log back in, sometimes for hours. That's not lag.
That's precicely what lag is!
Again, slow motion =/= lag.
When the server can no longer keep up with the requests 1000's of people send to it, it slows the world down to reduce lag. Lag would be if you send in the jump request and that request never gets processed.
Lag is when your request gets lost.
It's not rocket surgery. |

Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
667
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:40:00 -
[132] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Zagdul wrote:TiDi = slow motion I want to see slow motion of my ship undocking. Gets a bit boring to watch my ship still in hangar after 7+ minutes.
But the request went through.
Would you rather never undock?
EDIT: Or even better! Undock and the rest of the requests for processing your undock don't go through and you stare at a black screen for 40 minutes only to find yourself in an alpha clone at your home system when you try to re-log and find out at the character selection screen?
It's not rocket surgery. |

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:40:00 -
[133] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Not caused by TiDi.
So how I can undock now if TiDi isn't causing this? Do I have to change setting or what?
Zagdul wrote:Lag is when your request gets lost.
High latency doesn't cause lag? |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1881
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:42:00 -
[134] - Quote
Lets add another important practical point.
In that low sec system you jumped into, with heavy lag you black screen and can't do anything.
However, because the server is still processing requests that it can get to before a time out happens, some people may still be able to function after a fashion in that system... even though you can't.
In a low sec system (or in the fleet fight that caused it) that means you are completely at the mercy of those people lucky enough to still be able to get some functionality. In other words, you likely end up in a pod the next time you are finally able to log in.... wondering what the heck happened while you were black screened.
In TiDi, everyone would be moving in slow motion yes, but still able to react to each other and not be completely helpless. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |

TWHC Assistant
52
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:42:00 -
[135] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:How is it creating an artificial lag on the client side? Are you pressing any buttons and it isn't reacting? You as the player create requests and by interacting with the client, which sends them to the server. Lag means that you cannot send requests at a normal speed, but they are being slowed down. Either because they are being lost on the way and need to be resend, or they get queued up and their processing delayed. In the end does it slow you down.
With TiDi do you have no real lag, but you are still being slowed down. It creates the illusion of the universe slowing down, while it really only does so for the affected systems and not all of EVE. It does not slow down the node. The node itself simply cannot process requests faster (or slower) than before. This illusion is what I call an artificial lag. It has a very similar effect to real lag. It only manages and warns players in a graceful way about the fact that the numbers of players connected to a node is increasing and the system is reaching is capacity.
Again, it is not a real lag. TiDi creates an artificial lag, one that can be managed. |

Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
667
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:43:00 -
[136] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Not caused by TiDi. So how I can undock now if TiDi isn't causing this? Do I have to change setting or what? Zagdul wrote:Lag is when your request gets lost. High latency doesn't cause lag?
TiDi is not high latency.
It's not rocket surgery. |

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:45:00 -
[137] - Quote
Zagdul wrote:TiDi is not high latency.
No, you said that lag is when server fails to respond when it doesn't know what client requested.
Still on station. 10+ minutes... |

Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
667
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:46:00 -
[138] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Zagdul wrote:TiDi is not high latency. No, you said that lag is when server fails to respond when it doesn't know what client requested.
Nope. I didn't.
However, high latency can cause packets to drop thus losing requests which does cause lag.
It's not rocket surgery. |

Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
646
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:47:00 -
[139] - Quote
Zagdul wrote:Lag would be if you send in the jump request and that request never gets processed.
Lag is when your request gets lost. Actually, no. That's lagging out, i.e. the server is lagging so badly that your requests is exceeding a certain timer and is rejected/lost. The press undock, wait 7+ minutes etc is actually lag, mainly because the act of actually undocking is very, very CPU intensive for oldfashioned and ******** reasons which I believe is going to be refactored sooner or later by CCP Awesome Neckbeard, and as such take a long time to process.
The difference from pre-tidi to post-tidi is that pre-tidi the request would take so long to process it'd lag out, whereas post-tidi it's still actually going to get processed.
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Not caused by TiDi. So how I can undock now if TiDi isn't causing this? Do I have to change setting or what? You really, really don't understand what TiDi does, do you? |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1881
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:48:00 -
[140] - Quote
Okay, I'm done feeding the trolls for tonight.
Dev blogs have explained this whole situation in detail. Anyone honestly still confused need to look them up.
It's really not that hard to understand people. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |

TWHC Assistant
52
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:50:00 -
[141] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪand TiDi doesn't do that. Also, if the warning comes afterwards, it's not early. It warns from a growing lag.
Tippia wrote:An artificially created lag. It's not lag. it's slow-motion. Your client does not respond more slowly GÇö quite the opposite.[/quote] The node responds more slowly. The client lets you rotate your camera only slowly, etc. Not "quite the opposite", or do you see your spaceship having an increased rate of fire? This would be quite the opposite.
Tippia wrote:The difference this makes in terms of success and achievement within the game is hardly different. GǪaside from TiDi letting you fight and succeed, whereas a black screen leaves you at the mercy of whomever didn't suffer the same fate. This makes TiDi different in every way from a black screen.[/quote] This only means that it is not your success. And you are wrong to believe that TiDi lets you win a fight more often.
Zagdul wrote:But keep posting... it's good! No. It really isn't. But his posting does raise a questionGǪ
Tippia wrote:Hey Whitehound! Why aren't you posting as Whitehound? Did you get muzzled due to your compulsive and incessant trolling again? I got a 2 week ban for making jokes on gingers. Happens... |

Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
648
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:50:00 -
[142] - Quote
TWHC Assistant wrote:Lord Zim wrote:How is it creating an artificial lag on the client side? Are you pressing any buttons and it isn't reacting? You as the player create requests and by interacting with the client, which sends them to the server. Lag means that you cannot send requests at a normal speed, but they are being slowed down. Either because they are being lost on the way and need to be resend, or they get queued up and their processing delayed. In the end does it slow you down. I can send requests at a normal speed. Hell, I even get a proper response quicker, now.
TWHC Assistant wrote:With TiDi do you have no real lag, but you are still being slowed down. It creates the illusion of the universe slowing down, while it really only does so for the affected systems and not all of EVE. It does not slow down the node. The node itself simply cannot process requests faster (or slower) than before. Yes, that's what's called tidi, as in time dilation. It slows down time, it doesn't lag your requests.
TWHC Assistant wrote:This illusion is what I call an artificial lag. It has a very similar effect to real lag. It only manages and warns players in a graceful way about the fact that the numbers of players connected to a node is increasing and the system is reaching is capacity. Nope. Wrong. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "warning players in a graceful way about the fact the numbers of players connected to a node is increasing" etc etc etc, and everything to do with degrading gracefully instead of [i[crashing and burning[/i] and behaving erratically. |

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:51:00 -
[143] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:You really, really don't understand what TiDi does, do you?
Why I'm still on station? 20+ minutes and waiting. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6682
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:51:00 -
[144] - Quote
TWHC Assistant wrote:You as the player create requests and by interacting with the client, which sends them to the server. Lag means that you cannot send requests at a normal speed Incorrect. Lag means you're sending requests at your normal speed, but the server drops/forgets/ignores/leaves them for much much later. Lag doesn't mean your requests are being slowed down GÇö it means they are entering an indeterminate queue that might, with a bit of luck, at some point be processed (unless the server decides that it has better things to do).
Quote:With TiDi do you have no real lag, but you are still being slowed down. No. There is no GÇ£stillGÇ¥ about it. With TiDi, you're acting in slow motion. With lag, you're not GÇö your acting at normal speed, but very erratically and possibly without you ever knowing it (because you're not getting any updates).
Quote:It does not slow down the node. It slows down the simulation running on the node, yes.
Quote:It has a very similar effect to real lag. It has pretty much none of the effects of lag (there is no GÇ£unrealGÇ¥ lag, so calling it GÇ£realGÇ¥ is redundant). What it does is actually create the effects of no lag where lag should otherwise exist. You do not suffer the dropped packets; you do not suffer the communication blackouts; you do not suffer the delayed responses; you do not suffer the lack of feedback. Instead, you get all of that and lets you play normally except for a slow-motion effect.
Quote:It only manages and warns players in a graceful way No. It slows down the server's simulation and syncs up the client's simulation so it does the same. It doesn't warn anyone since, on the client side, it's just a real-to-simulated-time-ratio meter. Again, it's still real lag. TiDi just removes the nasty effects of it by ensuring that the server doesn't get completely lost in that high-lag environment. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |

Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
648
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:53:00 -
[145] - Quote
TWHC Assistant wrote:Tippia wrote:GǪand TiDi doesn't do that. Also, if the warning comes afterwards, it's not early. It warns from a growing lag. Nope.
TWHC Assistant wrote:The node responds more slowly. The client lets you rotate your camera only slowly, etc. Not "quite the opposite", or do you see your spaceship having an increased rate of fire? This would be quite the opposite. What the **** are you on? The client lets me rotate my camera just as quickly as I'd like.
It sounds like you're talking out your ass from back when CCP first tested tidi on sisi.
TWHC Assistant wrote:This only means that it is not your success. And you are wrong to believe that TiDi lets you win a fight more often. It lets both sides have an actual fight and win/lose based on what they brought, instead of who were in the system first. I.e. it's a much more fair way of reacting to a large fight. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6684
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:57:00 -
[146] - Quote
TWHC Assistant wrote:It warns from a growing lag. Nope. It just says how much slower the simulation is running than usual. It says absolutely nothing about the lag.
Quote:The node responds more slowly. Nope. The node response more quickly and more reliably, because you don't have to wait in line (and possibly get lost) while the server is processing your request. The client does quite the opposite of what you're saying: it responds more quickly, not more slowly.
Quote:This only means that it is not your success. Nope. It means it's my success since I'm now allowed to do the things I do to win, rather than lose by default since I'm looking at a black screen while they shoot me.
Quote:I got a 2 week ban for making jokes on gingers. Happens... It happens if you're a troll, yes. This isn't the first time you've been mass-gagged, now is it? Isn't it about time you learn to keep your gob shut and not expose the vacuum behind your frontal bone quite as much? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1881
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:57:00 -
[147] - Quote
I almost forgot, on the "early warning system" nonsense...
It is not (and was never intended to be) a way to convince players to stop doing what they are doing because they are causing lag.
TiDi enables play to continue despite high lag conditions.
Quite a different thing. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |

Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
648
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 10:00:00 -
[148] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Lord Zim wrote:You really, really don't understand what TiDi does, do you? Why I'm still on station? 20+ minutes and waiting. Oh, really? That's funny, the longest I've had to wait in a 10% dilated system was less than a minute. Granted, that was nullsec, but I doubt the code for moving your brain from one node to another is any different depending on security status. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6684
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 10:02:00 -
[149] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Oh, really? That's funny, the longest I've had to wait in a 10% dilated system was less than a minute. Granted, that was nullsec, but I doubt the code for moving your brain from one node to another is any different depending on security status. Well, they did have a few collisions between TiDi and Crimewatch, but most of them were nuked during Burn JitaGǪ and Crimewatch in and of itself has historically been a nice lagbandit in empire space.
GǪhis problems still sound like something quite different, though. It sounds more like some kind of desynch or faulty packets being thrown out. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 10:02:00 -
[150] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Oh, really? That's funny, the longest I've had to wait in a 10% dilated system was less than a minute. Granted, that was nullsec, but I doubt the code for moving your brain from one node to another is any different depending on security status.
This is abit strange. I even click Undock every now and then just in case request got lost somewhere. |
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