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CCP Fallout
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Posted - 2009.06.17 14:15:00 -
[1]
Ah, June 17. Not just a day to celebrate the independence of our favorite country, Iceland, but a day to celebrate and reflect upon CCP Diagoras' newest dev blog! In it, Diagoras takes a look at the popularity of various ship types and starbases on the market. Full of all sorts of graphs and analysis, Diagoras' blog will surely be a hit amongst all of you market geeks. You can read it here. |
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.06.17 14:26:00 -
[2]
Interesting information, thanks!
When can we talk about delayed 0.0 Local and the new ships scanning tools to replace it's intel gathering functionality? CCP Zulupark was planning for something in Q1 of this year, and we're past that. Thanks! |
Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.06.17 14:39:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 17/06/2009 14:39:15
I think it is pretty common knowledge why the Typhoon is so unpopular, though I have always liked its looks and have been using one for salvage boat (very fitting for the role).
The Tempest isn't any great especially considering the poor condition of "alpha strikes". Also, I guess most would prefer a Maelstrom over a Tempest (see Clear Skies 2 for reference). |
Kane Plekkel
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Posted - 2009.06.17 14:55:00 -
[4]
Nobody likes Minmatar battleships BECAUSE OF FALCON 
tbh, I dunno. I've always preferred projectiles to hybrids, and armor tanking > shield tanking...perhaps its the bits of scrap they leave behind in salvage? |
Wreyn Sevet
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:01:00 -
[5]
A comparison of all of the different weapon types would be interesting, specifically with short range weapons. Tech II ammo sales might also be interesting to look at.
Happy independence day, CCP. |
Taudia
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:03:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Taudia on 17/06/2009 16:06:39
The tempest isn't really a good sniper or RR BS, so a lot of pvpers shun it in favor of the megathron or apocalypse. This is exacerbated by it's comparably low alpha strike (arties used to be good at alphas).
The typhoon is another matter, but I think that, while it is a potent ship, it's lackluster popularity has to do with it's position as a tier 1 BS. When you have trained for typhoon, you can go towards the bigger minnie BS, which both don't require the same skills, or the minnie caps, which until recently were notorious under performers. This has a lot to do with the amount of skills it takes to fly a pvp phoon well. Usually, you'll want tank, missiles, projectile guns and heavy drones. Compared to the dominix which pretty much just needs tank and drones (and neut/nos but that is much less training) or the scorp, which just needs ECM and maybe armor taking for the usual fit, it takes a long time to train for a phoon and many players look to "graduate" to another ship before they have the skills to really fly a phoon properly. |
Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:18:00 -
[7]
From seeing my corpmates struggle to fit every of the ships of that blog and having fought all of those, I'll try to answer a bit about the low and high popularity.
Dominix is super popular because it's easy to make it tank very well while not loosing a bit of firepower. Not having to choose between the damage mods and the tank is a huge advantage, making the dominix tank better than other BS in most PvP situations. It's also the only BS that is really efficient when definding against a swarm of smaller ships because of the tank, the utility slots (neuts usually) and the drone bonus. Versatile, so much that it tanks better and is more efficient that much more expensive BS.
Typhoon is relatively difficult to use skill wise because of the totally split weapon systems. Only older players dare to use one. Also, the slots are split everywhere, leaving no chance of a huge shield or armor tank. It's too average in everything to be well considered by most players.
Scorpion was replaced in most EW user's mind by the recons. Wait for long term ECM changes effect to see if it needs something more. I know no caldari recon and BS user that would take it instead of a falcon or a rook in most situations (excluding long range fights that don't happen to us most of the time).
Armageddon is Amarr. It nearly says enough, I think all Amarr BS need a capacitor capacity boost, they are just so vulnerable to neuts, it's scary to fly, you don't want to fight a dominix with them! Also, ease of fitting big lasers and nos/neut makes them even less appreciated.
Raven, the name says all. Mission ships, people love missiles in missions... Its PvP popularity is much lower, I think it's more taste for PvE, choosing the damage type.
Megathron is a good ship, often tight to fit, even more since the CPU of energized adaptives was increased. Sometimes too tight, but it still works well, looks really cool, always a scary sight in PvP, and works in PvE too (harder to use than dominix, but once mastered, much faster to run a part of the missions).
Tempest is not that bad, but, you can't tank it that much. When you fit ACs, you want a MWD, using that slot ruins the shield tank, and you want a web, ruins even more the shield tank. In long range, Maelstrom does at least same and tanks better, why bother with it? Maybe in short range, maelstrom does better too... This ship needs a bit of something to be better. A turret slot might be too much, some drone space might be useless, moving slots will cause hate of half the users... Maybe it needs a medslot, straight, not removing anything? Is all game balance about number of slots or just about the ship's efficiency?
Armageddon is not bad with the new bonus, but, lacks something. Maybe capacitor as all Amarr dream every night for... But I don't know really, most people that can fly it just stopped a long time ago and didn't check it again after changes.
Well, I guess most people could say the same as I did. If those aren't good reasons for ships to be underused or overused now, maybe it's just because people got used to the ships they began using when something was even more wrong. |
Real Poison
Minmatar
Stormlord Battleforce
Vanguard.
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:20:00 -
[8]
"Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread."
ever read the Ships & Modules forum?
Minmatar ships are too versatile, too mediocre, too SP intense.
Amarr ships are better armor tankers.
Amarr ships are better damage dealers.
Gallente ships are better armor tankers.
Caldari ships are better shield tankers.
Caldari ships are better missile boats.
Caldari ships are better EW boats.
Gallente ships are better drone boats.
Split weapon system generally suck (SP-wise, 2 ammo types to carry around is a PITA)
Range and damage potential of large projectiles are generally worse than other weapons.
And iirc the lack of cap need for the guns is already calculated in the lower cap capacity. So no real advantage in using the cap for tanking to make up for it.
TLDR
they can do almost everything, but excel at nothing.
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Elaron
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:28:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Because the Minmatar racial benefits of greater base speed and lower signature radius do not scale well at the battleship level.
Because large projectiles fail to scale well from the smaller levels of guns.
Because of successive game changes specifically designed to degrade the importance of alpha strike.
Because a Minmatar specced character trained to use all three battleships well suddenly finds that it possible to cross train to use other races battleships very easily, and uses them instead as they give better options for almost all battleship roles. |
Areo Hotah
Paxton Industries
Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:41:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Areo Hotah on 17/06/2009 16:42:10
Because nobody likes split weapon systems, especially as it takes 2 years of training to by fully specced in one ship (Typhoon).
Because the Tempest is by far the worst sniper BS.
Because the Mael is a somewhat decent sniper, but has a useless bonus.
Because large AC's and large arties are significantly worse than hybrids and even more than lasers. But hey, we can choose dmg type, so that more than makes up for it, right Zulupark  ?
Because velocity and sig radius are not very important for BS.
Because of the low sensor strength, which was really bad in the Falcon days.
Because they don't have a good missioning boat (also related to large projectiles).
And finally, because Minmatar capitals suck, so if you want a racial BS V, might as well pick a useful one.
In short: other races are much better, and in the time it takes to train for everything needed to fly a Minmatar BS properly, you might as well train for another race and weapon type.
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Damion Zyne
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:49:00 -
[11]
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
This must be a joke. 
Fix the damn Tempest but keep the Phoon like it is. It actually work when you invest enough SP. Anyone saying the Phoon is crap has no idea. Well, while your at fixing Minmatar BS please swap shield and armor HP on the Phoon. How hard can this be ??? |
Min Qa
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:59:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
* Large projectile are just not good. Low DPS and horrible range for BS level combat. Fighting in falloff reduces damage too much for the supposed range advantage.
* All the matar racial advantages (speed, sig radius) fail at the BS level. Speed and sig radius advantages are just not enough to be useful when you hit large sized ships.
* Split weapon systems != versatility. Split weapon systems also need a ridiculous amount of training time to be at the same level as single weapon system ships, and don't make your ship more versatile. 4/4 turret/launcher hard points on the Typhoon is not as versatile as say 5/5 because any BS can give up a bonused high slot for a nuet/nos/cloak/etc (and many can give up an unbonused one for less of a DPS hit). |
Captain Campion
Synergy.
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:02:00 -
[13]
There was a graph a while back showing that Caldari and Gallente ships die a lot more than Amarr and Minmatarr ones do.
It stands to reason then, that more Caldari and Gallente ships are being traded.
Caldari are more popular, which may explain that to a certain extend. Gallente probably needs a boost. |
teji
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:02:00 -
[14]
Edited by: teji on 17/06/2009 17:16:19
Troll CCP Diagoras
Quote:
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Yes, there is no consensus. Could it be their terrible tank? The horrible T2 large guns? The lack of a long range sniper that isn't outclassed by every other race? The nerfing of anything that goes in the spare midslot and highslots along with scripting sensor boosters and tracking computers. The bad dual weapon systems? The craptastic Nag dread? The fact that speed doesn't matter with BS?
So many terrible things about minmatar bs that you really can't just pick one. |
ishkabibble
Rage of Inferno
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:02:00 -
[15]
*Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
LOL at CCP Diagoras trolling us, good one.
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Larkonis TrassIer
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:03:00 -
[16]
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Nice troll. Do you guys even read the forums? Do you even have to ask this?
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Liisa
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:06:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Damion Zyne
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
This must be a joke.
Fix the damn Tempest but keep the Phoon like it is. It actually work when you invest enough SP. Anyone saying the Phoon is crap has no idea. Well, while your at fixing Minmatar BS please swap shield and armor HP on the Phoon. How hard can this be ???
The problem with the Typhoon is that it requires a lot of different skills to fly well. The ship itself is pretty good, just that there are a lot of other battleships that fit into fleets or small gangs better than the typhoon and they are easier to train for.
Having to train gunnery, drones and missiles to get the damage output to respectable levels (don't forget the support skills) means that most people will not train specifically for the 'phoon as there will normally be another goal that is more time effective.
In my case I one day noticed that I had the skills I needed through the training for other ships and races that had slowly added up to what I considered to what I considered the minimum to fly the 'phoon well. I think I had around 60 million sps at that time and other ship options open to me so that I rarely flew the 'phoon anyway.
These days the trend towards remote repairers means that the 'phoon once again suffers as it has no utility slots free. High sp players will probably choose some other ship, like dominixes due to their drones or apocs for their nice range gate of 20 to 65? km (can't remember the max range my apoc has with pulses and scorch) with their primary armament.
Another thing to remember is that for a long time the 'phoon was the most expensive tier 1 battleship and didn't offer enough in return for it. That stigma of being "not worth it" still sticks to it to this day. |
darkmancer
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:31:00 -
[18]
Edited by: darkmancer on 17/06/2009 17:32:57
It's a shame teir 3 bs wern't show, particually info about the Caldari's only ship of the line and the FOTM rr brick Abaddon.
I'm surprised the Falcon remains that popular I had a look at the jita market a while back and sales had seemed to fall. |
Banni Vinda
Minmatar
Veto.
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:32:00 -
[19]
Something to consider: just because something changes hands more often, doesn't mean it is 'better' and/or more popular. For every buyer who wants a ship, there's a seller who doesn't. OK, a (possibly significant) proportion of those sellers will be manufacturers. My point is that we're not talking about sales figures in the same terms as GM/Ford might report car sales.
Perhaps a lot of those sales for ship X happened because re-sellers routinely bought them up for re-listing at a higher price.
Also, this report doesn't consider battleships manufactured purposely for intra-corp/alliance use. These won't ever see the market.
Finally, a ship considered 'disposable' (thanks to T1 full insurance) might also see a lot of turnover. |
Max Hardcase
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:46:00 -
[20]
Falcon is god 
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Isaac Starstriker
Amarr
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:48:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Nice troll. Do you guys even read the forums? Do you even have to ask this?
He said there is no real consensus. Just your opinion is not a consensus. He is not trolling, he is stating fact. Of which even myself, have never seen one real point about Minmatar that says they are truly in need of a buff. I see plenty of people who are able to use them efficiently. So I don't blame CCP for saying that.
--Isaac |
Ancy Denaries
Caldari
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:49:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Ancy Denaries on 17/06/2009 17:49:26
Originally by: Damion Zyne
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
This must be a joke.
Fix the damn Tempest but keep the Phoon like it is. It actually work when you invest enough SP. Anyone saying the Phoon is crap has no idea. Well, while your at fixing Minmatar BS please swap shield and armor HP on the Phoon. How hard can this be ???
That's your opinion. The problem is everyone seem to have their own opinion, and hence, there's no concensus.
EDIT:
Pwnd by my corpmate :( |
Vitrael
Reaper Industries
Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.06.17 18:21:00 -
[23]
Re: why do Minmatar battleships have the lowest trade volume?
I think it's a combination of two factors.
1. Minmatar is the 2nd to least common character race choice. Caldari and Gallente characters are significantly more popular than Amarr and Minmatar. Most people, especially new players, train for the race they started with before they train another race, which would contribute to the relatively low amount of Minmatar and Amarr battleships traded vs Caldari and Gallente. These effects are likely diminishing, as race choice during character creation is in a randomized order (Since 2005, I believe?) and the recent changes allowing stat point redistribution means that Caldari -> Achura is no longer the most preferential stat point distribution (except for the fact it is still able to achieve 3 Charisma).
2. Minmatar battleships are the least useful and most poorly perceived of the four races. This is largely a matter of opinion, but a few matters about it are fact. Large autocannons have relatively low DPS and extremely low optimal range when compared to Pulse lasers and Blasters. Using Multifrequency, Antimatter, and EMP, large turrets get about 15+10km, 4.5+13km and 3+20km respectively. Blasters have a higher base damage over time than lasers, which have a higher damage over time than autocannons. In practicality, Autocannons underperform in every respect save that they do not use capacitor to fire.
Large artillery follow a nearly identical trend, with their only redeeming factor being a slightly improved alpha strike damage. However their atrocious refire rate and clip size of 10 EMP or Tremor per 1400mm weapon makes them come up short. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.06.17 18:29:00 -
[24]
Quote:
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
There's probably no consensus because there's so many reasons.
Typhoon - a very good ship with the right skills. But it's unpopular because it's so skill-intensive (hence unattractive to PVEers) and, having only four turrets, has no place in a sniper fleet. Large projectiles are lacklustre, and it suffers from undeserved CPU issues when fitting Siege II and damage mods. Also, why does it have more base shield than armour?
Tempest - suffers from lacklustre DPS, range and alpha as a sniper, and from unremarkable tank and DPS as a brawler, although the utility highs and med are attractive.
Maelstrom - suffers from being an active tanker in a world of buffer tanks, and a shield tank in a world of armour remote-repping BS, because of the utterly insane CPU requirements of Shield Transfers. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2009.06.17 18:50:00 -
[25]
Hhahahahhahaha
nice refrence.
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Raivi
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.17 18:52:00 -
[26]
A whole lot of us are really very surprised that you don't already know what's wrong with minmatar battleships, so the comment in the blog asking for help is going to receive a lot of ridicule, be warned in advance.
As people have said so far, there's a number of individual reasons that all contribute to the weakness of the Minmatar battleship lineup.
In my opinion the most significant of these is the weapon systems themselves.
Autos: When compared to both other large shortrange weapons and to other sizes of autocannons, large autos come up lacking. This is partially because the smaller tiers of autos gain a lot of effectiveness from their low fitting cost, which is relatively less of an issue for battleships and for cruisers since you can't fit an oversized plate on a bs. I think large autos could use a rebalance check, and have their stats tweaked to bring them in line.
Artillery: Artillery is even more of a problem than autocannons, and in this case the problem comes down to range, pure and simple. Nobody who knows what they are doing uses minmatar battleships for a mixed sniper fleet. Snipers have to be able to hit at 200+km effectively, and the minmatar ships even with tech II rigs cannot keep up with Apocs or Rokhs or Megas. This can either be fixed by increasing the range of artillery significantly, or by swapping some of the falloff into optimal, or possibly by changing tracking enhancers and computers to effect both falloff and optimal. One way or another, artillery range needs to be brought into line, as the current consensus is that tempests and maelstroms are less than useless for long range sniping fleets.
For a much more comprehensive look at Minmatar ships (including more than just battleships, but feel free to focus on the battleship issues as they are by far the most pronounced and agreed upon) you can see this proposal created by former CSM member Pattern Clarc here.
I humbly beg that Minmatar battleships be added to a list of major issues that need a detailed balance look for an upcoming patch. I had honestly believed that they were already on your radar, and am somewhat dismayed to find that they are not. CCP has shown some very effective balancing abilities in the past months, please continue that streak by looking closely at Minmatar battleships and large projectiles.
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Real Poison
Minmatar
Stormlord Battleforce
Vanguard.
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:00:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
He said there is no real consensus. Just your opinion is not a consensus. He is not trolling, he is stating fact. Of which even myself, have never seen one real point about Minmatar that says they are truly in need of a buff. I see plenty of people who are able to use them efficiently. So I don't blame CCP for saying that.
--Isaac
we haven't reached page 2 and i already see consensus that they're sub-par to other races BS and the reasons are a plenty.
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Tildes own
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:01:00 -
[28]
ccp in "no ****ing idea" shocker
Originally by: Queue K'Umber
It is unseemly when a player, regardless of their occupation(in-game), becomes a self-congratulatory poastaholic.
~Join the "C&P" channel ingame~ |
Zupkuck
Jovian Vigilantes
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:06:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Zupkuck on 17/06/2009 19:07:05
Utterly unbelievable... the community has been talking about the disparities between Minmatar battleships and the other races' for years now.
Likewise with Large Projectiles.
Wait to fail, CCP.
Oh, and fix the Muninn too while you're at it. If you're at it. PLEASE be at it.
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irion felpamy
Minmatar
HellJumpers Corp
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:12:00 -
[30]
The minnie BS suck thats the reason there are less traded. Mystery solved.
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Isaac Starstriker
Amarr
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:16:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Real Poison
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
He said there is no real consensus. Just your opinion is not a consensus. He is not trolling, he is stating fact. Of which even myself, have never seen one real point about Minmatar that says they are truly in need of a buff. I see plenty of people who are able to use them efficiently. So I don't blame CCP for saying that.
--Isaac
we haven't reached page 2 and i already see consensus that they're sub-par to other races BS and the reasons are a plenty.
This is also one thread. There are quite a number of different threads on the subject and none of them seem to agree on the problem and/or solution to the problem. (Quite a bit different story when regarding other racials such as Gallente, who claim its a tracking issue).
--Isaac
Isaac's Haul*Mart - Closed
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Raivi
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:26:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Raivi on 17/06/2009 19:32:35
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
Originally by: Real Poison
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
He said there is no real consensus. Just your opinion is not a consensus. He is not trolling, he is stating fact. Of which even myself, have never seen one real point about Minmatar that says they are truly in need of a buff. I see plenty of people who are able to use them efficiently. So I don't blame CCP for saying that.
--Isaac
we haven't reached page 2 and i already see consensus that they're sub-par to other races BS and the reasons are a plenty.
This is also one thread. There are quite a number of different threads on the subject and none of them seem to agree on the problem and/or solution to the problem. (Quite a bit different story when regarding other racials such as Gallente, who claim its a tracking issue).
--Isaac
Generally what you're seeing is not disagreement about what is wrong with minny battleships, it's that there's a very long list, and different people are emphasizing what they think is most important. For instance I personally think that the weapon systems are the most important failing, but I agree with what people above have said about active tanking and split weapon systems/high sp requirements.
:Edit: I will agree with you that finding the right solution to buff them without breaking balance in any other ways will be tricky, but that doesn't mean it isn't an effort worth making. I don't think CCP should wait for players to find the perfect solution before they start brainstorming in-house, I'm sure they don't either.
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar
Star's Dust Industrie
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:39:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 17/06/2009 19:42:07
Originally by: Elaron
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Because the Minmatar racial benefits of greater base speed and lower signature radius do not scale well at the battleship level.
Because large projectiles fail to scale well from the smaller levels of guns.
Because of successive game changes specifically designed to degrade the importance of alpha strike.
Because a Minmatar specced character trained to use all three battleships well suddenly finds that it possible to cross train to use other races battleships very easily, and uses them instead as they give better options for almost all battleship roles.
My point exactly. I'm strating to crosstrain.
Diagoras you have the acces to the db, I think if you look at Matari players, you'll see a lot of them cross-training.
We have versatiles ships but the game now need specified roles. Maybe it wasn't true when Tier 1&2 were designed but now, in June 2009, versatility means nothing.
Since we have shield tank/armor tank/speed tank, good missiles skills, good drones skills and excellent gunnery skills what do we do : train, for exemple, smal/med/large hybryd then caldari or gallente freg/cruiser/bs and tada we fly gallente or caldari => Matari population spray around a lot more than any other race population.
5 speed nerf is too much, we had nothing more than this and 3 other race whinners asked and asked again a minnie nerf. Against 17% or so of other players that can't say nothing. Does Minnie whines aginst armor or shield tank ? No they can't because they can't tank the same by now and if they whine they'll tank nothing...
So since the last speed nerf does projectiles got a boost ? They got a nerf with locus rig stacking penalty. The Tempest can't snipe now. It is supposed to shoot car sized projectiles...
Look at the Huricane, since the 7th turret got nerfed, it's a cool ship but when you plot max dps * max defence of each tier 3 bc, which is tanking/ganking efficiency, it's crap vs others. 7th turret or another med slot is what is needed for this ship tbh...
etc, etc. Minnie ships looks good on the paper but CCP need seriously to play with them.
Minnnie aren't hte sex anymore... 
- edit - oh trolls, yes it's a whine and go away |
Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar
Star's Dust Industrie
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:50:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 17/06/2009 19:50:01
Originally by: Min Qa
Quote:
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
* Large projectile are just not good. Low DPS and horrible range for BS level combat. Fighting in falloff reduces damage too much for the supposed range advantage.
And since, with all these nerf speed
- a mwded minnie bs is, say, 1000m.s-1. A mwded other bs is, say 800m.s-1 How can we control and micromanage the falloff ? In 1 minute at +200m.s-1 to get 12 km ? With a mwd and a tank running it's impossible imho
Fetchez la vache !
moar(tm) < soon(tm) :(
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar
Star's Dust Industrie
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Posted - 2009.06.17 20:04:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 17/06/2009 20:05:26
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Nice troll. Do you guys even read the forums? Do you even have to ask this?
He said there is no real consensus. Just your opinion is not a consensus. He is not trolling, he is stating fact. Of which even myself, have never seen one real point about Minmatar that says they are truly in need of a buff. I see plenty of people who are able to use them efficiently. So I don't blame CCP for saying that.
--Isaac
15/20 pages about minnie artillery last winter, tons of thread about "dual weapon sucks", "versatily means nothing" and "Matari ships are sub-par" is called a consensus in my book.
How many players cross-train to Matari bses ? How many players cross-train to Caldari bses ? |
Myrkala
Minmatar
Aurora Acclivitous
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Posted - 2009.06.17 20:28:00 -
[36]
Originally by: "CCP Diagoras"
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Ohh, Hahahah! That was a good one Diagoras! Nearly killed me. 
Protip: Use eve-search, put in "Minmatar". Congratulations, you have now found 15*grahamsnumber threads where 90% of them one or more are related to their topics:
Fighting in falloff
37,5% DPS
Hit Quality
Tempest
Suck
Typhoon
Skill intensive
Hard Mode
Split-Weapon Systems
Train Amarr/FOTM
Please Fix
Ect, ect. I think you have found the main ingredients of the Minmatar Consensus-Soup!
Hµ h= og jibbf-jei, jibbf-f jeij, ¦a= er kominn sautjßndi j·ni! 
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.06.17 20:53:00 -
[37]
Like the majority of the players posting here, I find some of the comments by CCP Diagoras to be a little amusing.
This data is pretty simple, yet it paints a very dramatic picture. Just think of all the data that the devs have available to themselves that they'll never release to the players. Think of all the trends that they can view, all the statistics that they can track to help them balance the game. And yet it seems that they just ignore most if not all of it and continue on in some sort of blind ignorance.
Minmatar BS use is in the dirt. Why? The reasons are horribly obvious to what appears to be everyone except the dev team. Falcon use is through the roof with the Arazu and Pilgrim far behind and the Rapier falling fast ever since the speed changes.
Stuff like this is so clearly evident with even the smallest most simple data sets, and knowing this CCP seems to think that everything is just fine and balanced and 'working as intended'.
While the provided data takes into account both PVE and PVP useage for the ship types, I'd like to see the data split into PVE and PVP sets so that we can get a better picture about ship use for PVP. PVE ship use has been self evident for years now. No news there.
The real question is- with even minimal data there are some glaring issues with ship design and balance. What would we see if we had more in depth data and more detailed reports with better metrics?
If a manufacturer of a real life product saw similar data to the Minmatar BS figures they would be doing something about it. Why doesn't CCP?
And where are the Tier3 BS data? The Marauder data? Command ships? Hacs? Tier1/2 BCs? Inquiring minds want to know. Hell, I don't think that you could ever provide us with too much data. I doubt you'd hear anyone say 'omg, stop, you're killing us with too much good stuff.'
Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.17 20:57:00 -
[38]
It's about the Ammo, stupid.
-T2 Hybrids don't have much of a penalty. More Cap? Minor Tracking hit?
-T2 Crystals burn up faster and use up a lot of cap. But isn't that what cap boosters are for?
-What about T2 Torps? Sig radius boost of less than 5%?
-What about T2 Drones? The cost?
But what about T2 Projectiles? Do I want to completely kill my speed, maneuverability and capacitor, or become completely useless at ranges less than 100km?
Not to mention that to even GET to T2 ammo, you need to train up every size turret to V and every size specialization skill to IV
T2 projectile ammo is beyond pointless, and faction ammo is 1) Rare 2) Expensive 3) Not as good.
The alpha strike of a Minmatar BS is useless -- targets too far to tackle and slow tracking means damage is easily reduced at very slow speeds. Enemies that can get anywhere near will eat a Sniper fit to pieces. Against drones they're defenseless -- so remove a highslot for a smartbomb and lose 15-20% of your DPS! Fast enemies are virtually invincible due to lousy tracking penalties, and then since maneuverability is one of the big T2 ammo penalties you can't even escape.
The only Minmatar BS worth PVPing in is the Typhoon. It's large drone bay, versatile highslots, and ability to fit a decent armor buffertank make it a jack of all trades, master of none. But in a "fair" fight, it'll lose every time because it can't be maximized in any particular direction.
But hey, it's cool to be able to fit torps, autocannons, AND a full compliment of heavy drones, in a ship that resembles a keg. |
Cornette
Gallente
Black Screen of Death
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2009.06.17 21:11:00 -
[39]
Originally by: "CCP Diagoras"
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Best CCP Troll ever.
It's now official: CCP fail miserably at reading tons of pages of why Minmatar BS and Artillery been lacking for years.
How can that possibly be, ah thats right 90% of CCP characters are Caldari PVE-players. Thats why you added 15 new Caldari Agents.
Well done CCP, you suck. |
The Mittani
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.06.17 21:11:00 -
[40]
there's no consensus on what's wrong with minmatar bs because there are so many things wrong with them
ugh |
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Jalmari Huitsikko
Caldari
Endemic Aggression
Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.06.17 21:31:00 -
[41]
There's nothing wrong with minmatar battleships and same time there's everything wrong with them :D
If something could be looked into I have 2 suggestions:
- Making typhoon armor tanking torpedoboat. -> Less turret slots and less done space. More missile slots or "2xdmg" bonus.
- Do "something" for rest large AC boats vargur, mael, tempest etc. Don't care about arties but AC's need love either falloff, more dmg types, better ammos etc.
Also caldari battleships are becoming kind of "obsolete"
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Evelgrivion
Ignatium.
Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.06.17 22:05:00 -
[42]
Originally by: The Mittani
there's no consensus on what's wrong with minmatar bs because there are so many things wrong with them
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
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Posted - 2009.06.17 22:16:00 -
[43]
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Nominating this for Troll of the Year 2009 |
Merouk Baas
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Posted - 2009.06.17 22:50:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Merouk Baas on 17/06/2009 22:51:57
I accidentally the entire market.
Good blog/thread title.
It's also blogID=666, according to the URL. |
Clinically
Gallente
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.06.17 22:53:00 -
[45]
Quote:
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
facepalm.jpg |
Taram Caldar
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.06.18 00:02:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Taram Caldar on 18/06/2009 00:03:55
The comment about Minmatar battleships is just scary.
It's not that there isn't a general agreement that there's a problem with them. It's just that there are so many problems with them that nobody can agree as to which is worst.
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.18 00:37:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Alz Shado on 18/06/2009 00:39:53
Just to play Devil's advocate, I'd ask if CCP was wondering less about what's technically wrong with the Minmatar BS, and more about what the perception of what's wrong with it. IE, why would a complete noob who's never even read the forums choose one ship over another.
I'm sure they've done the trends and have established the design flaws. (Whether they're willing to do what's necessary to fix them and risk needing to rebalance the status quo is another story) What they want is a much easier fix - how to boost the appeal of the Minmatar Battleship. How to make them more interesting without actually making it different. An image makeover.
Maybe it's as simple as changing the skin. The typhoon is a beerkeg; a shiny beerkeg, but it's still just a barrel full of Natty Light. The Tempest looks like a steampunk angelfish. While other races have sleek and futuristic ships as their fleet's most powerful subcap ships, the Minmatar reflect their junkyard heritage in every texture.
Perhaps they retire the keg and give their new Tier 1 ship a Machariel hull. Perhaps they can include complimentary Exotic Dancers and Quafe Ultra with every new ship. Or Minmatar battleships get a specal warp effect, leaving a trail of flaming debris in it's wake.
Lets not judge their post for anything more than what it is -- judging a popularity contest. They just can't (or won't) admit that their battleships are the Sanjaya of EVE.
á
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"Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand |
Vixa Ambrodel
Minmatar
CrayC Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.18 02:21:00 -
[48]
I am sad. I have been away from this game a for long time, but look in on the dev blogs every now and then. I made this, my third character, to be a pure Minmatar pilot, since the other characters I have can fly almost everything else.
I see a question: Why does minmatar ships suck?
And as so many have replied: Because they can do everything. It's costy, not just in isk to get all the skillbooks, but also in time to train everything. We're talking armor AND shield, guns AND missiles, drones AND electronic warfare.
Amarr can do just fine with sticking to lazors and armor.
Caldari can do just fine with sticking to missiles and shields.
Gallente can do just fine with sticking to drones and armor.
Minmatar kinda sucks if you don't train all of the above.
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Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.18 02:40:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Alz Shado
stuff
One of the reasons I trained minmatar is because steampunk is best punk. Please leave my skins alone. If anything, bring the rusty classic content back. I detect a severe lack of rust in premium client typhoon :S
To fix the tempest give it 7th (maybe even 8th, then it'd be somewhat equivalent to the apoc/rokh as far as damage goes) turret slot, PG to fit said turrets and introduce 1600mm artillery. That said I also want 800mm artillery for muninns and 6th turret slot there. If it worked for the zealot...
To get autocannons to work I have no idea what to do. Try increasing base falloff on all weapon sizes so you can outrange scorch. That way even though you have crap tank, and even crappier dps, you can at least try to use your marginally better speed to stay out of range and hope your crap dps will be able to break your enemies tank.
Also apply same buffs to normal projectiles that were recently applied to capital ones? It was slower rof, higher alpha which helps plenty with silly low clip sizes. |
Zenethalos
Minmatar
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.06.18 02:54:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Zenethalos on 18/06/2009 02:58:48
Edited by: Zenethalos on 18/06/2009 02:54:46
Hrm what is wrong with Minmatar BS? After being a dedicated minnie pilot for three years I have pretty much given up and crosstrained to Amarr.
Typhoon: I use to hate this ship because of the split weapons. Now I love it, using t2 torps and auto's it can put up some fierce DPS, at extremely close ranges though, 10-12km. Issue is with the era of long range RR it sucks for DPS, and Alpha. Only Matar ship that needs t2 large drones.
Tempest: Range, just does not cut it. Also the ambiguos tanking abilities. It is just not a good RR gang ship.
Mael: This was the ship given to us Matari pilots to use for PVE The shield bonus needs to change in this current age or armor RR since shiel RR is just not an option which is really sad. It can still be a great close range RR ship with its five lows but it's shield bonus detur many of us in my experience from using it for RR gangs.
Matar ships are just too skill intensive considering their mediocrity. You need shield skills, armor skills, missile skills(for a decent phoon any ways), gunnery skills, and if you don't want to be laughed at for using t1 ogre's you need to shell out even more time on t2 ogre's if you are flying a typhoon in an RR fleet to give it noticable DPS.
Funny enough to say it but in my own experience the Typhoon with the proper skills is the best matar PVP/PVE ship.
I cannot think of any players that I know who wanted to cross train to Minmatar, were the cosmic joke of eve.
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Jufi Wekior
Arachnid Logistics
Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2009.06.18 03:23:00 -
[51]
I'd like to see graphs comparing T2 ammo and faction ammo. Last I checked all the high-damage T2 ammo is useless. short range high-damage ones because they only increase damage by the same amount as empire faction ammo. Long range high-damage ones because they completely nerf any chance at doing any meaningfull damage because of severe range penalty and tracking penalty. This would probably be reflected in sales of Void, Conflagration most of all. Hail still has a minor use as being mostly explosive damage.
As for minmatar battleships, I would think it's just that other races have ships that specialize more while minmatar doesn't(classical example is the typhoon). As a result once a minmatar user is highly skilled he'll switch race more often then not. Friend of mine started out as a minmatar specialist and can now use all 4 races bs and does so for specific tasks, like Apoc for sniping, Dominix for pve(T2 sentry drones ftw he says), Geddon for RR fleets etc etc. |
Jennai
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.06.18 03:35:00 -
[52]
mineral costs of T1 BS using Oursulaert buy order prices from two months ago (too lazy to login and update my spreadsheet)
dominix 46.9m
armageddon 48.9m
scorpion 54.5m
typhoon 56.4m |
Cat Molina
Minmatar
Intransigent
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Posted - 2009.06.18 05:21:00 -
[53]
My god. What's not wrong with Minnie battleships? Seems like every change made in the last two years has hurt them.
EW in the mids? Killed in the EW/script nerf.
Speed? Killed with the nano nerf.
Missiles? Killed with the missile nerf.
Alpha/sniping? Killed that with the hit point boost.
And on and on and on...
Since the fall of the Nano-Phoon they've steadily been taken apart.
What are you left with? Sub-par ships which fail across the board. Yes a Typhoon, if trained for a couple of years, can be dangerous... if only because no one has a clue what you've fitted (blank canvas syndrome). It still remains unable to outclass the other races who specialize (at three times the training costs!).
Like others, I finally gave up and began cross-training the other races.
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Bonny Lee
Caldari
The Guardian Agency
Guardian Federation
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Posted - 2009.06.18 06:05:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Elaron
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Because the Minmatar racial benefits of greater base speed and lower signature radius do not scale well at the battleship level.
Because large projectiles fail to scale well from the smaller levels of guns.
Because of successive game changes specifically designed to degrade the importance of alpha strike.
Because a Minmatar specced character trained to use all three battleships well suddenly finds that it possible to cross train to use other races battleships very easily, and uses them instead as they give better options for almost all battleship roles.
To be honest this is so true. I now have 45 Million SP and specced Minmatar only until i had about 37-38 Million... In the last half year i found that i could do better PvE with the Ishtar and that i prefer the Lachesis over my previous roaming the huginn. I startet to train for Gallente BS and will bring it to 5 in the next month after my perc/will remap. I love my Minmatar Ships but why should i stay with Tempest if i could use Mega as well? Why should i use Phoon (my char has 45m SP full combat and still lacks in missle skills to fly it how it should be) or Maelstrom if im able to fit a Domi perfect as well?
Perhaps when i got another 5 Million SP in Missiles i go back to Minmatar (Phoon) but thats the only Minmatar Ship (BS) being cool and worth the effort.
So what should you do?
Buff Arties => Maelstrom gets better Mission-Ship
Buff PG on Pest => Being able to fit it as a Sniper without that damn rcu
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2009.06.18 06:09:00 -
[55]
Well..
I can only speak about the Typhoon here, but i think its worth to put that into the pot.
I was searching for a Missile/Armor Tanking BS a while ago.
I looked up the Caldari BS.. Raven, nope, Scorp, nope, Rokh, nope.
Then I searched in the other races BS and the only BS I found which had at least 4 Missile bays was the Phoon and it even armor-tanked.
Cool I thought..
Then I loaded that beast in EFT and tried to give it some sense..
Conclusion:
- Phoon lacks two more Missile Bay points if you cant field turrets
- a Raven can be Armor tanked as well and does more DPS and is cheaper too
Advice:
Look at the Ferox and how it helped as you revisited its points for Missile/Turret Bays..
I would like to vote for a armor tanking Missile BS.. and if you can 6 Missile Bays on the Phoon. There just is no other BS which can do that..
Forge '07 on Sale
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BlondieBC
Minmatar
Ardent Industrial
Arcane Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.18 06:46:00 -
[56]
The minmatar battleships are very skill point intensive, with no coresponding benefit. I would like to see minmatar battle ships with much smaller sig radius, say 30% smaller.
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Derus Grobb
Selectus Pravus Lupus
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Posted - 2009.06.18 07:24:00 -
[57]
I lol'd at the Minmatar BS troll 
Please go and fix them now, thanks |
Sun Ra
Culture Breach
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Posted - 2009.06.18 08:12:00 -
[58]
I miss my tempest  |
DJTheBaron
Caldari
FinFleet
KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.06.18 08:58:00 -
[59]
Am I the first person to comment on the interesting graphs?
Oh rite, thats not what this blog was about. |
Myyona
Minmatar
Ataraxia Pharmacies
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Posted - 2009.06.18 09:19:00 -
[60]
I have always stuck with Minmatar ships, all the way to the Vargur. At least I know that the chance of getting shafted is minimal.
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Nobody can do everything, but everybody can do nothing |
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Violated
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Posted - 2009.06.18 10:42:00 -
[61]
Originally by: "CCP Diagoras"
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha..
Hahahah..
Allright, done laughing. Can i suggest Diagoras to read this post on SHC from Pattern, wich still is a draft, but highlights the problems with Minmatar. |
Needa3
Minmatar
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2009.06.18 11:04:00 -
[62]
Quote:
the rise and fall of the Rapier, which lost a lot of popularity after a rebalancing of speed and stasis webifiers
hmmm could it be that having a very good minnie ship getting a nerf, that makes it like uber junk, have something to do with it?
great report CCP
took you six years to question what players have been saying for the same amount of years
Nerf more and you'll get even less versatile fleets
- scorp: worthless
- phoon: worthless
- pest: worthless
- mael: worthless
- raven: worthless
better undo your previous nerfs and bring the game back to what it used to be instead of this uber blobbing noob stuff
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Dracira Dracc
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Posted - 2009.06.18 11:37:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Needa3
- raven: worthless
For lvl 4 Mission a CM Raven i not a bad ship, far away from being worthless.
Anyway - that was one of the more interesting blogs for me ;-) |
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
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Posted - 2009.06.18 12:34:00 -
[64]
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
The hulls are ok. The large projectiles guns aren't. The Typhoon is still useful due to its ability to use torpedoes and drones, but the other hulls are completely left behind due to the abysmal practical damage their guns do. For all purpose they are as good with other guns as with the guns they are bonused for (see this thread for numbers).
And when you are better off flying them with unbonused guns guess what... We are better off using the same guns on hulls that gives them bonus. Make it so that a Tempest and Maelstrom are undoubtedly better with large projectiles than with lasers (or medium projectiles, the Phoon is surprisingly good with medium autocannons), problem fixed. |
Ariane VoxDei
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Posted - 2009.06.18 12:58:00 -
[65]
Originally by: CCP Fallout
Full of all sorts of graphs and analysis, Diagoras' blog will surely be a hit amongst all of you market geeks.
Graphs yes, analysis where?
Those battleship graphs are nearly useless from a player point of view, we don't have the additional information (numbers) to corelate this into insight.
It's like looking at something a beancounter who's never played the game would make. Numbers/graphs, but largely meaningless, unless you are the "nerf'em if they are high on our graphs" type, which just breeds mediocracy and kills innovation (why strive to be good, if being good gets you nerfed).
What good are relative percentages among tier1, then among tier2, then among tier3? Things aren't that neat or static.
Some are L4 boats, some are (lr)fleet ships, some camp/shortrange ships, some are EHP pigs, some are highly specialized. And this transcends tiers.
Also, you don't just snap your fingers and go from L5 and T2spec in one races battleships to fly another race, as fast as you can buy them on the market. At least regular players don't.
It takes months of SP. Many, if not most, will be inclined to stick to what they have specced, so training plans are not upset.
"uh, there were some torpedo changes in 2007, that might explain the 50% drop in relative market share compared to cruise launchers." Well, DUH, captain obvious.
I mean, really, what did you expect? A 50% jump in popularity?
Hm, possibly, in a wrong and twisted way, it suddenly makes sense that stealth bombers were changed from cruise to torp - after all some people are believers in forcing things on OTHER people to make everything equally used, particularly if they themselves are not effected.
On a techinal note I deplore your choice of graph. It is inherently bad for our purposes, unless(!) the total volume remains constant.
Also even with constant volume it is problematic.
By definition, if one number goes up, the relative share of the others goes down, constant volume or not and vice versa.
This exaggerates changes and also makes it much harder to detect trends properly.
For example some ships may sit at a fairly constant volume, or at a near constant volume of pilots (above x million SP) and still show up as a incline or decline, when you plot that into a % of all ships, due to as little as one ship becoming more or less popular.
Practical example from your blog.
Tier 2 battleships in the 2008 to now period.
The fall alone of the raven, could (I am not say it does) make up for the combined rise of the Apoc and Mega, if you were inclined to limit your search for answers to be something within the Tier 2 graph.
Taking the july2008 to end of graph numbers:
Total raven share drop: roughly 15 points.
Total apoc+mega rise: roughly 15 points.
Tempest virtually unchanged.
Then, what is the analysis?
"Interestingly, the actual number Raven trades through the market has stabilised over the past year, whilst other battleships have continued to grow as expected in terms of numbers traded."
Oops. As expected, the graph "lied", Raven did not fall, the others just rose dramatically. In other words, VOLUME MATTERED.
This is not analysis of the data at hand, this is cheating and including data that is not present.
Analysis would look at the reasons behind the changes, not saying: it dropped because these other numbers rose, because that tells us nothing interesting, it is stating the obvious:
The part that did not change in size now makes up a lesser percentage of the whole because some of the other parts grew in size.
Or to be mean to fat people:
Observation:
The fat people are no longer as far above average weight as they used to be.
And then giving this explanation:
This is because some of the skinnier people put on a lot of weight (making a new, higher, average).
It totally avoids the interesting questions of why the other numbers rose, and why the raven did not scale with population growth.
How much more clear does it need be? The graphs are nearly useless without more data!
Another example.
You make a note of the coldwar drop for Ravens (tier2), but omit the coldwar spike for the dominix (Tier1) and how it kept rising for almost 2 years after that.
Also no explanation for the dramatic recovery of the raven after the coldwar drop.
And wtf, where are Tier 3 ships in all this? They were left competely out. Totally unacceptable in a analysis of battleships to leave those completely out of it.
And then there is the whole issue of market speculation (resale), which effects traded volume. High volume attracts more speculation, which in turn increases volume a bit more, biasing already popular ships.
So.
Why % of tier?
Why leave out a whole tier? That Tier 3 joined later is no excuse.
** Why of traded volume? ** When there are much more "real" volumes, like manufactured / in existance / destroyed.
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Nullshadow
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2009.06.18 14:26:00 -
[66]
I suspect that tier 3 BSes and Marauders were left out because they make the racial disparities in the graphs we were shown look minor. Golem vs Vargur, anyone?
CCP should not rely on player consensus as to the problems with Minmatar vessels to make their balancing choice. The devs should take the numerous complaints, run the same numbers the community does to verify that we are not lying (e.g. 37.5%, hello?), and then make their own decision. They did this with the Nagl, and based on the feedback on these forums before and after the changes it was not 100% what the player base wanted, but all told it seems to have proved a widely-accepted solution.
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Elric Redeye
Ex Coelis
|
Posted - 2009.06.18 15:46:00 -
[67]
There are plenty of well-reasoned threads out there detailing what's wrong from every angle. That is not to say there are easy fixes but how can CCP possibly not know the "consensus" is Minmatar BS are not as good as others for PvE or most forms of PvP?!
I'm one of those noobs who did not know enough when I started Eve and chose Minmatar because the description sounded cool. At the start, the Rifter Frigate is great. I didn't feel picked on at all. But now that I'm flying a Maelstrom (almost all T2 fitted) and know a bit more about the game mechanics, well, I started cross training Caldari. Very sad statement for Minmatar big ships.
Who wants to always play Eve on 'hard mode?'
+1 vote for troll of the year |
Spurty
Caldari
Ore Mongers
BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.06.18 16:52:00 -
[68]
I have Amarr BS5 and Minmatar BS 5
Having used both all I can say is:
- Minmatar ships miss waaaaay too much
- Amarr don't miss, waaaay too much fun to get top damage dealer to go back to minnie ships.
When the last of my inventory of minnie ships is exhausted, I'll not fly anymore. Their guns are awful. Not an opinion, a fact based on experience of flying both minnie and amarr ships.
No one likes to miss 100% of the time just because you always have to fight in fall off / hit moving targets.
Doesn't affect anyone but minmatar either (again, purely from experience of flying 'other ships'.
Don't really care if you fix it CCP, just don't nerf all the others!
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails
hi cat here
i was thinking earlier about corpses...
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Zupkuck
Jovian Vigilantes
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.06.18 17:30:00 -
[69]
Diagoras, are you reading these comments?
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Pattern Clarc
Celtic Anarchy
Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.06.18 18:19:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Zupkuck
Diagoras, are you reading these comments?
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Pattern Clarc
Celtic Anarchy
Force Of Evil
|
Posted - 2009.06.18 18:30:00 -
[71]
Quote:
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Raw data
Fall off Mechanics - 225
Tempest - 160 (including BS diversity)
Artillery - 155
Minmatar Capital Ships - 114 (including naglfar)
Shield Boost Bonuses - 109
Large Autocannons - 78 (including per tier falloff increase)
Target Painters - 71
Split Hardpoints - 62
Typhoon - 55 (mostly switching armor and shield hp)
Muninn - 42
Interceptor Locking Range - 34 (mostly claw lock range)
Jag/Wolf bonus swap - 30
Projectile Ammo - 26
Mealstrom - 12 (moar speed/agility)
Fleet sniper - 12
ECCM - 9
Cyclone - 9
Minmatar Recons - 9
Vargur - 6
Breacher - 5
Burst - 1 |
Shidhe
Minmatar
The Babylon5 Consortuim
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Posted - 2009.06.18 18:43:00 -
[72]
All minnie BS are sub-par (not dire, just not so good). The minnie design philosophy just doesn't work so well on big ships.
Phoon - Needs more grid - really! A little more speed would be nice, to give it a real niche - speed should be the phoon's real purpose to fit the minnie philosophy.
Tempest - The main problem here is the artys, not the Tempest itself. The Minmatar need a fleet BS to shoot out with everyone else...
Maelstrom - Not flown this much myself, so I will leave it for others to comment on a role here. |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.06.18 21:34:00 -
[73]
Why are Minmatar battleships the least popular?
Let me state the obvious - Large Artillery sucks.
The ammo capacity is way too low.
The damage is sub-par.
The tracking is bad.
The grid requirements are too high for the ships.
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Trojanman190
Yultani Advanced Research
Dark Orbit Associate's
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Posted - 2009.06.18 21:50:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Trojanman190 on 18/06/2009 21:55:11
Originally by: Real Poison
"Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread."
ever read the Ships & Modules forum?
Minmatar ships are too versatile, too mediocre, too SP intense.
Amarr ships are better armor tankers.
Amarr ships are better damage dealers.
Gallente ships are better armor tankers.
Caldari ships are better shield tankers.
Caldari ships are better missile boats.
Caldari ships are better EW boats.
Gallente ships are better drone boats.
Split weapon system generally suck (SP-wise, 2 ammo types to carry around is a PITA)
Range and damage potential of large projectiles are generally worse than other weapons.
And iirc the lack of cap need for the guns is already calculated in the lower cap capacity. So no real advantage in using the cap for tanking to make up for it.
TLDR
they can do almost everything, but excel at nothing.
QFT
Edit:
Just adding that I,ve got Minmatar and Amar BS V and t2 large guns for both races. Unless something changes, I don't ever plan on flying a minmatar BS again.
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Alt Tabbed
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Posted - 2009.06.18 22:28:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Originally by: Zupkuck
Diagoras, are you reading these comments?
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Htaer
|
Posted - 2009.06.18 23:21:00 -
[76]
I find our own banter of flaming and trolling each other to be just as bad as diagoras's comment. How about, those of you who enjoy putting people down, try to be productive instead, and suggest something useful to the CCP devs work hard to make the frickin' game better, regardless of your rudeness. The Minmatar ships are lacking in DPS and the large cannons can be ineffective. I suggest the skills required be somewhat close to the other race's BS skill requirements.
Also, feel free to troll me. A noob is a noob, an you have all been there before. 
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Tildes own
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2009.06.19 02:25:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Alt Tabbed
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Originally by: Zupkuck
Diagoras, are you reading these comments?
hahahha
Originally by: Queue K'Umber
It is unseemly when a player, regardless of their occupation(in-game), becomes a self-congratulatory poastaholic.
~Join the "C&P" channel ingame~ |
Typhado3
Minmatar
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
Aeternus.
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Posted - 2009.06.19 02:44:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Typhado3 on 19/06/2009 02:44:19
Originally by: The Mittani
there's no consensus on what's wrong with minmatar bs because there are so many things wrong with them
What it said.... |
Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
White Core
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Posted - 2009.06.19 07:05:00 -
[79]
would be nice if ccp learned from there own grahps..
www.garia.net |
Doctor Mabuse
|
Posted - 2009.06.19 11:20:00 -
[80]
Statistics are like bikinis; what they reveal is interesting, but not as interesting as what they conceal!
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Zupkuck
Jovian Vigilantes
Gentlemen's Club
|
Posted - 2009.06.19 12:34:00 -
[81]
Any day now, Diagoras. We aren't going to forget how gimped Minmatar BSes and Projectiles in general are over the weekend.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.06.19 12:43:00 -
[82]
Quote:
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
maybe missed big sticky like this? http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1051722
60D GTC - shattared link |
dor amwar
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.19 13:38:00 -
[83]
Quote:
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
a dev post that needs to be moderated for trolling
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D'Artagnan
Bladerunners
KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.06.19 13:43:00 -
[84]
"Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread."
You have to be joking!!! I have been playing eve since release. 1 month ago I figured you would never bother fixing Minnie ships so I am now cross training!!
Here is a clue for you:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1051722
Go read it lots of good ideas to fix Minnie and Projectiles.
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Zupkuck
Jovian Vigilantes
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.06.19 13:53:00 -
[85]
Originally by: dor amwar
Quote:
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
a dev post that needs to be moderated for trolling
I hope he didn't get canned for that. It was dumb, but still. I really just want a response.
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Nullshadow
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2009.06.19 15:17:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Zupkuck
I hope he didn't get canned for that. It was dumb, but still. I really just want a response.
If CCP fires a dev whose purview is market analysis for a confused comment on ship balancing, then I will be truly disappointed in them (rather than my current frustrated affection).
I wonder if the "lack of consensus" comment is less a comment on the community and more represents something internal to CCP. Diagoras may not know much about the ships in terms of mechanics, asked a coworker, and got a muddled response. The comment might have been a quite straightforward suggestion that we should be vocal about it to help inform the internal discussion from someone who just did not know that there already was a huge hairy mess on the forums. I would guess from his minimal linked history that Diagoras' job has nothing to do with keeping up with the forums.
Or, if it is a troll, well... my hat's off, it is pretty epic. |
Nicholai Pestot
Gallente
Scorpanti Corporation
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Posted - 2009.06.19 16:29:00 -
[87]
Quote:
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
Your kidding right?
As has already been said, read the excellent draft by Pattern here |
5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.06.19 16:30:00 -
[88]
Caldari would be at the bottom of both graphs if you took out the PVE equation.
Scorpion is bottom because while it's ok at what it does there are better alternatives, it's a suicide ship, a ship that needs to get closer to work better, that'll always be primaried that's incredibly slow to escape or go anywhere.
Noone who goes in a scorpion with a fleet expects to come back alive so it'll get shunned for falcons because a lot of people have enough isk to care more about how their kill/death stats look.
Dominix is so popular because it's incredibly cheap and inredibly good at tanking or incredibly good at dps, easily getting 1000 and really good at RR, meaning it's also going to spike again as everyone wants them in their RR gangs for Wspace and you can just about see that taking effect at the end of the graph.
The fact that the Hyperion being arguably the worst Tier 3 ship will also contribute to the racial preference of the Dominix. |
Mutnin
Mutineers
|
Posted - 2009.06.19 16:46:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Kane Plekkel
Nobody likes Minmatar battleships BECAUSE OF FALCON
tbh, I dunno. I've always preferred projectiles to hybrids, and armor tanking > shield tanking...perhaps its the bits of scrap they leave behind in salvage?
Projectiles are great on the smaller ships but the BS's just have problems.
I'm not a fan of nerfing or buffing ships just because of forum whines..But these market stats alone should show CCP that Minmatar BS's need some love. I personally wouldn't do a boost to projectiles but to the specific ships.
I'd imagine the Caldari ships are only so popular because of all the mission runners. I don't see them in PVP often.
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TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
|
Posted - 2009.06.19 18:34:00 -
[90]
A large projectile buff would be great, other people have suggested lots of good ideas on this.
BS wise I'd like to see some extra grid on the pest, another couple of turret and launcher slots on the phoon (so people can choose weapon system), a bit more cap regen on the strom (to better use the active tank bonus) as well as swap the rof bonus for damage bonus (more alpha please).
Buff matari BS (and maybe the scorp), don't be lazy and just nerf the others |
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CommmanderInChief
Comply Or Die
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Posted - 2009.06.19 18:35:00 -
[91]
interesting seeing i posted this
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1096146 |
Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
THAT Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.06.19 19:54:00 -
[92]
The one big miss in the dev blog is the faction ships or tech 2 ships. Yes yes yes, for sheer numbers they don't compare, but nonetheless, normalized against against a newb/veteran ratio (call say 10M skill points veteran say), I'd bet some of the faction ships (or tech 2) for PvE are more popular than the Raven/Domi combo.
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5pinDizzy
|
Posted - 2009.06.19 22:02:00 -
[93]
Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 19/06/2009 22:06:10
A market graph of all frigate weapons compared would be pretty funny too when you got to the part about rockets.
They are so bad I dont even care if I remembered to fit the rocket lauchers or not when I take something like the malediction out, I'm only there to tackle and that alone gets me on the killmail.
I once lost a warp scrambled pod that managed to slowboat back to the gate once despite smacking it senseless with tech 2 rockets, I didn't know any better at the time but looking back now I can't believe it when the Crusader alpha's pods in one salvo most of the time.
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CCP Diagoras
C C P
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Posted - 2009.06.19 22:30:00 -
[94]
Me? I'd never troll. Thanks a lot for the comments regarding Minmatar so far though, they'll be passed on My apologies for not being able to respond in a timely manner, rumours of my demise (or in this case, firing) are however greatly exaggerated.
To answer one question that has come up a couple of times, tier 3 battleships were left out this time as there was a lot more history to the other ship tiers, and there is only a limited amount that can really be put into a single blog. I'm sure they will make an appearance sooner or later, but for this blog it was felt that the tier one and two battleships should be looked into first.
Originally by: Eventy One
The one big miss in the dev blog is the faction ships or tech 2 ships. Yes yes yes, for sheer numbers they don't compare, but nonetheless, normalized against against a newb/veteran ratio (call say 10M skill points veteran say), I'd bet some of the faction ships (or tech 2) for PvE are more popular than the Raven/Domi combo.
You have a good point here, and I can say that it is likely that more of the tech two ships will be shown in some form in the future.
Originally by: Razin
When can we talk about delayed 0.0 Local and the new ships scanning tools to replace it's intel gathering functionality? CCP Zulupark was planning for something in Q1 of this year, and we're past that. Thanks!
Not my area I'm afraid. I'm a research type, not a game design type. |
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5pinDizzy
|
Posted - 2009.06.19 22:39:00 -
[95]
Oh, I've another one.
Do a comparison of destroyers.
The Thrasher should come out considerably higher than the Cormorant, Coercer and Catalyst since it's made of win. |
Liang Nuren
The Hull Miners Union
Gentlemen's Club
|
Posted - 2009.06.20 01:13:00 -
[96]
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Me? I'd never troll. Thanks a lot for the comments regarding Minmatar so far though, they'll be passed on My apologies for not being able to respond in a timely manner, rumours of my demise (or in this case, firing) are however greatly exaggerated.
It would have made a nice troll, but feel free to pass things along, the commentary on Minmatar is pretty...... far reaching - and it's not like CCP (game design) does not *KNOW* that the public at large is fed up with Minnie ships/projectiles. Hell, I'm sure you saw the thread linked here a couple of times....
Originally by: CCP Game Design Team
What's wrong with Eve balance?
Originally by: Eve players in a largely united voice
MINMATAR BS's AND PROJECTILES SUCK
Originally by: CCP Game Design Team
What's that? ECM drones? I'll get right on it!
Sigh. They have never acknowledged the (MANY) issues, and every time any one of them's ever been pinned down into answering it they say that not only are Minnie BS's not bad, but that they're good. Which either shows that they're out of touch with the game or outright delusional. /shrug
Quote:
Not my area I'm afraid. I'm a research type, not a game design type.
Yeah, that's ok man, they don't let people who do have anything to do with game design near the actual game, let alone the forums. I'm a numbers guy myself (Data warehousing) so have fun and best of luck.
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Elaron
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.06.20 03:59:00 -
[97]
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Thanks a lot for the comments regarding Minmatar so far though, they'll be passed on
Thank you for that assurance. I hope you don't resent the hijacking of the discussion thread too much, but the game's most loyal Minmatar players are a frustrated group, currently.
I'm curious, though; does data and analysis that is similar to or that maybe goes deeper than presented in the blog get presented to the balancing team, as part of the evidence they use to determine where might be potential balance issues? Has the use of statistical evidence even been considered as being a part of their toolkit?
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
|
Posted - 2009.06.20 12:19:00 -
[98]
Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread.
and you guys call yourselves "devs"
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.06.20 12:47:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Dracira Dracc
Originally by: Needa3
- raven: worthless
For lvl 4 Mission a CM Raven i not a bad ship, far away from being worthless.
Anyway - that was one of the more interesting blogs for me ;-)
you do realize he was talking about fleets. that and you should look up the burn eden nano cnrs
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
|
Posted - 2009.06.20 12:48:00 -
[100]
Originally by: 5pinDizzy
Oh, I've another one.
Do a comparison of destroyers.
The Thrasher should come out considerably higher than the Cormorant, Coercer and Catalyst since it's made of win.
doubtful, I have a good few cormorants, just for that whole salvaging thing. not to mention the other 1039023 thousand caldari players.
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Galan Undris
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Posted - 2009.06.20 12:59:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Galan Undris on 20/06/2009 13:03:36
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: CCP Game Design Team
What's wrong with Eve balance?
Originally by: Eve players in a largely united voice
MINMATAR BS's AND PROJECTILES SUCK
Originally by: CCP Game Design Team
What's that? ECM drones? I'll get right on it!
More blatant ignorance than that thread is hard to come by tbh. Almost everyone comments ot large projectiles/Minnie BS and it's somehow channeled into ECM drones 
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.06.20 18:25:00 -
[102]
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Originally by: Razin
When can we talk about delayed 0.0 Local and the new ships scanning tools to replace it's intel gathering functionality? CCP Zulupark was planning for something in Q1 of this year, and we're past that. Thanks!
Not my area I'm afraid. I'm a research type, not a game design type.
Thanks for your reply!)
I'm just looking to draw any dev's attention to this thread. Didn't mean to imply it was all up to you! |
Athea G'man
|
Posted - 2009.06.20 23:07:00 -
[103]
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Not my area I'm afraid. I'm a research type, not a game design type.
As a pointer for more research (and more yummy yummy graphs!) how about a comparison of BS trade volume and the populations of the four races? Amarr and Minmatar are the smallest populations, so it's not surprising that those BS have the smallest trade volume. (Amarr BSs have only slightly more market share than Minmatars, but no one's running around saying how much Amarr BSs suck.) Start with a null hypothesis that market share and population are exactly proportional, and disprove it before you say that Minnie BSs suck.
That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to a little buff on my 'Pest.
A
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Ikar Kaltin
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.21 11:27:00 -
[104]
I notice how there is no comment upon the popularity of the Pilgrim and Arazu after they were both nerfed. Its right that they were each originally equally popular due to their specialised roles, but the falcon became so popular not only because of the strength of ECM but because of the uselessness of the other ships. This really needs to be rebalnced to be honest (buff force recons!)
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar
Star's Dust Industrie
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Posted - 2009.06.21 17:49:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 21/06/2009 17:50:37
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Me? I'd never troll.
I think ppl here had fast violent reactions... Almost matari reactions :)
Originally by: CCP Diagoras
Thanks a lot for the comments regarding Minmatar so far though, they'll be passed on
If CCP work on Minnie ships, you have a mountain of work. imho with ships whose size >= BC size, speed shouldn't be considered as an asset anymore.
Fetchez la vache !
moar(tm) < soon(tm) :(
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galphi
Gallente
Sileo In Pacis
The Space P0lice
|
Posted - 2009.06.22 02:53:00 -
[106]
I love the typhoon, for both pvp and mission running. It's large drone bay, use of missiles and turrets plus a solid armour tank give it great flexibility. It does take longer to train for though, and I see that being part of the reason why it's less popular. The Tempest is practically obsolete, with the Maelstrom besting it in just about every situation. DPS on arty and AC's is less than other turrets so that's a factor in Matari battleships being less popular too.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2009.06.22 19:41:00 -
[107]
I think it would be good for game design to increase alpha strike of artillery weapons, while maintaining same DPS. This was the case in early game design but was pushed back by the massive HP changes, and gradually forgotten with all the other tweaks to game balance. It's about time to give artillery a clear edge.
Minmatar battleships emphasize speed and agility, but the latest patches punish speed tactics on battleship. There's a conflict of design which makes their speed and agility near-useless as an advantage. Now battleships are primarily judged by their ability to tank and gank - both of which aren't strengths of minmatar bs. The main redeeming feature of Tempest and Typhoon is their ability to add 2 heavy neuts without gimping tank and gank setups.
On unrelated note, I would like to point out that the majority of players are empire carebears - the mission runners. They buy a large number of ships. The way those people use their ships, the qualities they like in a ship, are significantly different from the way PvPers use their ships. If CCP relies purely on market statistics to get a view of ship performance, they are taking a weighted average of carebears (heavy) and pvpers (light). Thus, the pvpers are getting short end of the stick here.
However, recon data is pretty accurate - since carebears have no need of recons. |
Malarkey
Minmatar
Twisted Creations
|
Posted - 2009.06.22 21:46:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Ephemeron
If CCP relies purely on market statistics to get a view of ship performance, they are taking a weighted average of carebears (heavy) and pvpers (light). Thus, the pvpers are getting short end of the stick here.
But PVPrs lose more ships than PVErs, so they would be more represented in the market statistics. No?
Personally,I wouldnt want to suggest where you should put the end of that stick) |
Hun Jakuza
24th Imperial Guard
|
Posted - 2009.06.23 05:36:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 23/06/2009 05:39:31
Originally by: Kane Plekkel
Nobody likes Minmatar battleships BECAUSE OF FALCON
tbh, I dunno. I've always preferred projectiles to hybrids, and armor tanking > shield tanking...perhaps its the bits of scrap they leave behind in salvage?
Because the CCP made it the minmatar BSs so crap.
Those ships unuseable. Double training times and worst BSs in the game. |
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.06.24 02:05:00 -
[110]
Hun Jakuza, don't forget that during the nano-age, Phoons were very popular, at least by the smart pvpers |
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Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.06.24 07:29:00 -
[111]
do you have similar data for pulse lasers?
----
Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
Hun Jakuza
24th Imperial Guard
|
Posted - 2009.06.25 05:52:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 25/06/2009 05:51:55
Originally by: Ephemeron
Hun Jakuza, don't forget that during the nano-age, Phoons were very popular, at least by the smart pvpers
Ephemeron
You told the magic words "were"
Two mwd in ship "were", and anothers things same "were", but we i think not talking the past we talking game balance.
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HankMurphy
Minmatar
XERCORE
Cult of War
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Posted - 2009.06.25 10:45:00 -
[113]
"Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread."
It was at this point i began to regret the (likely) hours of my life i had spent discussing matar ships and pointing out the various reasons many of them now suck.
When you write those posts you like to think "hey, maybe ccp might get a couple ideas from me.. maybe if i am articulate and persistent my favorite ships might be worth flying again.
What is worse? The above quote, the lack of any dev reply to minmatar threads or the fact that they just stopped discussing the balancing issues after picking 3 of the weakest issues in the game at the moment (though the nag got love!, that's hardly worth praise. I don't get praise at work when i happen to do what is expected of me)
Its like waiting patiently for your food at the restaurant for 45 minutes, only to realize upon asking the waitress that they totally forgot your order completely. |
Fish Mittens
Minmatar
0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.06.25 13:22:00 -
[114]
Originally by: The Mittani
there's no consensus on what's wrong with minmatar bs because there are so many things wrong with them
ugh
This, The Mittens speaks truth. |
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.06.25 17:21:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Fish Mittens
Originally by: The Mittani
there's no consensus on what's wrong with minmatar bs because there are so many things wrong with them
ugh
This, The Mittens speaks truth.
The fact that Typhoon, Minmatar battleship, was very powerful and useful in PvP before the Great Speed Nerf, shows that it doesn't take much for the ship to be fixed. It was working with nano, it was broken by CCP along with many other ships. But we already know what works and what doesn't work. It's not a guessing game. The fix we can use was already tested on TQ for months and proved to be successful. We have can look back at that successful performance and compare it to today's unsuccessful performance, then draw conclusions based on facts. There's no need to theorize at what might be if we tried something we never did before.
Tempest, on other hand, was only a little better during nano-age than it is now. It has its good moments, with 2 neutralizer setups
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.06.25 23:26:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: CCP Game Design Team
What's wrong with Eve balance?
Originally by: Eve players in a largely united voice
MINMATAR BS's AND PROJECTILES SUCK
Originally by: CCP Game Design Team
What's that? ECM drones? I'll get right on it!
Sigh. They have never acknowledged the (MANY) issues, and every time any one of them's ever been pinned down into answering it they say that not only are Minnie BS's not bad, but that they're good. Which either shows that they're out of touch with the game or outright delusional. /shrug
-Liang
Painfully accurate.
Remember Zulupark seriously suggesting we all fit Medium Proj. on the Tempest?
I now think CCP are willfully ignoring the balance situation Re: Matar and Proj. due to some long term balancing plan; cycle which race is nerf'd to death carefully at any point in time and you can extend people subscriptions and stp them maxxing out a race and getting bored.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep.
I am always here.
Watching.
Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
it does get progressively longer.
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.06.25 23:29:00 -
[117]
Edited by: RedSplat on 25/06/2009 23:29:40
I would love to see an analysis of Pulse laser (Medium and large) market share over the last 3 years.
One thng i clear, CCP 'balancing' tends to promote sharp polarizing effects in the chosen measure of a weapon or ships popularit.
Thats not balancing, thats knee-jerk use of the nerf hammer.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep.
I am always here.
Watching.
Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
it does get progressively longer.
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Yankunytjatjara
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Posted - 2009.06.26 08:02:00 -
[118]
I'm very happy to see data from CCP clearly showing that amarr is not, as a headstrong minority keep whining about, a FOTM. There's been a somewhat raising trend for maybe one year that has reverted back to the starting point in one month. Thanks for some clear data!
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.06.26 17:34:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Yankunytjatjara
I'm very happy to see data from CCP clearly showing that amarr is not, as a headstrong minority keep whining about, a FOTM. There's been a somewhat raising trend for maybe one year that has reverted back to the starting point in one month. Thanks for some clear data!
Battleship data is highly inaccurate due to being diluted by large percentage of carebears.
If you take that graph for face value, you'd think that Raven is the most uber powerful ship ever that pwns all other battleships. |
Tiger's Spirit
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Posted - 2009.06.28 14:14:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 28/06/2009 14:14:51
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Yankunytjatjara
I'm very happy to see data from CCP clearly showing that amarr is not, as a headstrong minority keep whining about, a FOTM. There's been a somewhat raising trend for maybe one year that has reverted back to the starting point in one month. Thanks for some clear data!
Battleship data is highly inaccurate due to being diluted by large percentage of carebears.
If you take that graph for face value, you'd think that Raven is the most uber powerful ship ever that pwns all other battleships.
No. That's it sum of the all pve and pvp ship data.
Matar battleships is crap. Everyone know that, but you try to tell for everyone, everything fine with minmatar battleships. LOL
Maybe you are a CCP dev alt.
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Turiel Demon
Minmatar
Shadow Reapers
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Posted - 2009.06.29 02:35:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Turiel Demon on 29/06/2009 02:44:00
Originally by: HankMurphy
"Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread."
It was at this point i began to regret the (likely) hours of my life i had spent discussing matar ships and pointing out the various reasons many of them now suck.
When you write those posts you like to think "hey, maybe ccp might get a couple ideas from me.. maybe if i am articulate and persistent my favorite ships might be worth flying again.
What is worse? The above quote, the lack of any dev reply to minmatar threads or the fact that they just stopped discussing the balancing issues after picking 3 of the weakest issues in the game at the moment (though the nag got love!, that's hardly worth praise. I don't get praise at work when i happen to do what is expected of me)
Its like waiting patiently for your food at the restaurant for 45 minutes, only to realize upon asking the waitress that they totally forgot your order completely.
Very accurate portrayal of the feelings of a lot of people I think. But I suspect that slowly the majority is shifting towards the group who have simply given up on minmatar entirely, who have accepted after all this time that the devs responsible for game balance have simply chosen that it's not worth their while to change minny BS or large projectiles.
CCP Diagoras, I don't think you quite understand how insulting your minmatar comment was to a great deal of players. There are people who have put hours, even days of their time into analyzing and attempting to explain why minny BS/large projectiles are so unpopular and simply bad compared to their other racial counterparts, and also to coming up with solutions, up to and including a short essay by one of CCP's own CSM members.
Also, it has come to my attention that I'm really in need of a proper signature. |
Earthican
Minmatar
DARKFELL EXCURSIONS
Bunny Nation
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Posted - 2009.06.30 01:31:00 -
[122]
I think it would be very interesting to see a chart of the number of regions in empire space compared by faction.
It might help CCP to figure out what makes Eve so unbalanced.
It might explain why Minmatar ships are less popular.
It might give a clue as to the flat line on the minmatar high end small control tower trades chart I imagined.
If most players play 1 of the 4 races available then it is obviously the race that needs a boost. wrighte?
P.S. Has anyone counted the number of Minmatar regions in empire space? |
Qinoly
Gallente
Avib VOV
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Posted - 2009.06.30 12:31:00 -
[123]
Would like to see an indepth study on the mineral and moon mining material markets combined with graphics on ingame inflation / deflation.
_________________________________________________
Shattered Crystal 60 Days Eve-Online GTC |
Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2009.06.30 13:41:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Mister Xerox on 30/06/2009 13:40:12
Looks like the consensus is:
Everyone knows Minnie ships have some major problems.
Huginn/Rapier need a boost to web effect as well as range (as the Paladin enjoys but cannot use post web-screw). The great speed nerf should have only adjusted velocity, webs should never have been changed at all.
Autocannons across the board need a rebalancing of their overall DPS. Just because they're capless does not mean that they should be such poor performers.
Alpha strike potential of all Artilleries needs a serious boost to compensate for the substantial change in defense values (armor & shield HP). Artillery range, particularly on the BS, needs to be increased to be on par with the other three races (all have BS that can easily outrange any and all Minnie BS, and outdamage them handily within those ranges).
Typhoon needs to loose the dual weapon platform and needs to be rebalanced to focus on one defense type or the other. As has been said: Jack of all trades, Master of none... without painfully high levels of a broad number of skills). Any changes to Min BS sig radius needs to be far more substantial to be at all useful.
Tempest needs a range and tracking bonus to offset the freakishly heavy nerfs on T2 weapon/ammo use. Remove the ROF bonus for a much, MUCH higher alpha strike ability. It also needs to focus on one defense type or the other.
Currently split weapons and split defensive systems cripple all Minmatar ships and push pilots toward other races with more focused skill paths. (Amarr & Gallente mostly armor tank, so shift Min defenses more toward shield to be on par with Caldari).
Look at the Amarr... they received missiles a couple of years back, substantially changing several ships in their T2 fleet... but they received only missile bonuses; those ships cannot fit lasers at all. No split systems were forced on them.
IMO: ALL ships being forced to use dual weapon layouts but receiving a bonus for only one of those weapons need to be corrected to single weapon primary platforms.
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Chubbins McChub
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Posted - 2009.06.30 22:11:00 -
[125]
Oh, the lols.
The following is a 100% true story. And I would dare say I am not the only one to have a similar experience.
As a Minmatar pilot, I remember when I was deciding to train for battleships. I broke out EvEFit and EvEMon to see what I could do.
1) I could spend the better part of the next six months to a YEAR to be able to reasonably fly a decent, respectable Minmatar BS that was pretty good.
2) I could spend 5-7 days, and hop in an Amarr BS that would be superior in every way. Furthermore, if I spent even a fraction of the time required for Minmatar mediocrity, it would be ridiculously awesome.
What do you think I chose?
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Sol ExAstris
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Posted - 2009.07.01 01:35:00 -
[126]
I have to agree that minnie bs have tons of problems.
The biggest of them in my opinion is that projectiles are simply the worst weapon system in the game. If you're going to deal with turret weapons rails and beams beat them in every category except cap use and falloff. To be short, fighting in falloff bites, and the lack of cap use isn't worth a crap in any situation except 1v1 against another bs, and even then it isn't a saving grace, especially since the faster you drain your cap early in the fight, the faster you get to optimal recharge, meaning your opponent is getting better use of his cap earlier.
the next biggest factor might be that minnie bonuses don't scale well at the battleship level. Shooting at a bs is like shooting at a barn, just because minnie barns are 10% smaller and move 10% faster doesn't mean you're going to miss.
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Igor Epocci
Minmatar
Fringe Industries EMS
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Posted - 2009.07.02 00:15:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Ephemeron
I think it would be good for game design to increase alpha strike of artillery weapons, while maintaining same DPS. This was the case in early game design but was pushed back by the massive HP changes, and gradually forgotten with all the other tweaks to game balance. It's about time to give artillery a clear edge.
Minmatar battleships emphasize speed and agility, but the latest patches punish speed tactics on battleship. There's a conflict of design which makes their speed and agility near-useless as an advantage. Now battleships are primarily judged by their ability to tank and gank - both of which aren't strengths of minmatar bs. The main redeeming feature of Tempest and Typhoon is their ability to add 2 heavy neuts without gimping tank and gank setups.
...
QFE, just so.
As another point-in-fact: Matari bonuses and weaponswork against each other! The tracking systems of the matari weapons are so horrible, that any significant increase in speed is largely suicidal.
The combination of fast ships and horrid tracking is a non-sequitur at best.
I demonstrated this to a corpmate just a few days ago on sisi. The rate of drop in damage output as speed increases is phenomenal. Enough so that the thought of making the matari ships faster without addressing the tracking would be a nerf in itself.
My two cents: address the tracking first. It would certainly help if we could hit the bloody target.
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Twitchy Khan
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Posted - 2009.07.06 05:50:00 -
[128]
As many have pointed out, market moves have little to do with how good a ship actually is (as if there were a single, objective scale for that). More importantly, for a long time many EVE ships were designed with niche roles in mind. That Minnie BS are less popular has more to do with ranged, RR ships being de rigeur for fleet battles and much less to do with Tempests being better at other combat types. In other words, the 'problem' of slow pest/phoon/mael sales IMO has more to do with role popularity than specific ship stats (as is the case with falcons ATM).
But this isn't necessarily a reason to change mechanics to make Minnie ships more popular (or more frequently bought, since that's what the stat actually shows). Making the pest/phoon a better fleet ship will only remove options for losec pirates who make decent use of them. Their style of play will become less popular as a result, and EVE's play-style diversity will shrink as well.
Perhaps race descriptions that hint more strongly at likely actual ship roles for that race would be warranted. Caldari: "specialize in fleet-assist jamming and cleaning up Gurista detachments" Gallente: "generally ineffective small ships due to focus on powerful BS and capitals" When I signed up, Caldari sounded like total pwnsauce with their "military traditions, ECM focus, superior shield technology, most advanced blah blah blah" and I expected to be running crazy hit-and-fades and flying circles around everything when I (my main) chose Minmatar. So far, neither of the race descriptions seem to be informative about the reality of the game. I'm still glad I'm a Minnie, but Caldari (expecting awesome, raw power) would've been a big mistake for me.
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Twitchy Khan
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Posted - 2009.07.06 06:06:00 -
[129]
Thought: would "number of ship model A in space at a given time" be a better metric of ship popularity? Barring some goofy thousand-ship rifterswarm event, I'd think it a better way to see what people are actually flying (multiple samples over time ofc). Market-derived info will always be tainted by re-sells and differing ship mortality rates.
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Imiarr Timshae
Caldari
Funny Men In Funny Hats
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Posted - 2009.07.08 11:57:00 -
[130]
"Regarding Minmatar, there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on why their battleships are the least popular. If you have any theories on why this is, feel free to discuss this in the comments thread."
Its because they are ****?
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Bap1811
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Posted - 2009.07.10 22:42:00 -
[131]
I don't want to get flamed madly for this. But can it be not accepted that the Battleships from X are better than the battleship's from X race?
I mean, don't we see a crazy inferiority when it come's down to Caldari frigate's? The Merlin is a joke of a ship compared to the Punisher, the tristan and the Rifter. I'm caldari and when I was at the frigate stage of my "eve" life, I simply did not win against other frigate's of other races, it was stupidly frustrating. Same goes for cruiser's. Will a Moa ever win against a Thorax? Against a rupture? I doubt it highly. Highly. Should I even talk about the caracal?
Being Caldari, and having cross-trained to get competitive frig's and cruiser's, this is why I feel no pity when it come's down to my fellow Minmie players begging for a boost in their BS's.
I'm not saying they don't need one, but I hope you see my point.
Now, I don't fly minmie BS, so I don't know how bad they actually are. However, I do know how bad Caldari frigate's and cruiser's are, and their pretty bad. And I take it their not getting buffed? So why should minmie BS's be?
Dont get me wrong, I'm not asking for a buff in Caldari, even though making the Merlin and Moa competitive would be pretty nice, but I'm just saying. Some race's simply have their flaws. It is true, that some race's never get the short end of the stick though, *cough*Gallente, Amaar*cough*.
I'm not asking for a nerf either. But I just hope you see that if you're buffing Minmie BS, then you just have to Buff Caldari in retrospect.
Read my whole post if you're gonna flame or complain, it's all I ask.
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Cherab
Minmatar
Dynaverse Corporation
Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.07.12 13:22:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Bap1811
I don't want to get flamed madly for this. But can it be not accepted that the Battleships from X are better than the battleship's from X race?
I mean, don't we see a crazy inferiority when it come's down to Caldari frigate's? The Merlin is a joke of a ship compared to the Punisher, the tristan and the Rifter. I'm caldari and when I was at the frigate stage of my "eve" life, I simply did not win against other frigate's of other races, it was stupidly frustrating. Same goes for cruiser's. Will a Moa ever win against a Thorax? Against a rupture? I doubt it highly. Highly. Should I even talk about the caracal?
The difference is most players will rarely if ever pilot t1 frigs and cruisers again once they have battleships/battlecruisers trained. BS are required for sniping POS, RR gangs, tanking gate guns etc. Players spend far longer training for BS and far longer actually using them than frigs & crusiers, so naturally players care more about the balance in this ship class
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Nullshadow
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2009.07.13 02:14:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Nullshadow on 13/07/2009 02:14:39
As posted above, BSes are where most of us find ourselves spending most of our training and flight time, and crosstraining at the BS level takes far more time than it does at the frigate and cruiser levels. Thus having specced heavily into a weak ship lineup at the BS level feels quite frustrating, as instead of a few weeks of training into something better we are looking at a few months.
However I for one would completely support a review of the Caldari frigates with an eye for giving them more parity against other races' frigates in PvP. I think that the t1 lines are quite weak, and several of the t2s could use some attention as well, and could indeed use a bit of buffing.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2009.07.13 08:35:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Nullshadow
Edited by: Nullshadow on 13/07/2009 02:14:39
However I for one would completely support a review of the Caldari frigates with an eye for giving them more parity against other races' frigates in PvP. I think that the t1 lines are quite weak, and several of the t2s could use some attention as well, and could indeed use a bit of buffing.
Anything that uses missiles needs a good looking at as well... rockets are laughable, a frigate can outrun their blast radius without even turning on its AB, and light missiles are no better. Only ships that actually get a damage bonus are able to actually damage anything with missiles.
Also, increase explosion velocities by at least 200% so that the missiles can actually damage what they're intended to damage (rockets/light = frigs, ect) before the object outruns its explosion.
And increase the raw damage of all missiles to offer commensurate damage as all other weapons of the same size class against its intended hull class.
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Bap1811
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Posted - 2009.07.13 13:31:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Cherab
Originally by: Bap1811
I don't want to get flamed madly for this. But can it be not accepted that the Battleships from X are better than the battleship's from X race?
I mean, don't we see a crazy inferiority when it come's down to Caldari frigate's? The Merlin is a joke of a ship compared to the Punisher, the tristan and the Rifter. I'm caldari and when I was at the frigate stage of my "eve" life, I simply did not win against other frigate's of other races, it was stupidly frustrating. Same goes for cruiser's. Will a Moa ever win against a Thorax? Against a rupture? I doubt it highly. Highly. Should I even talk about the caracal?
The difference is most players will rarely if ever pilot t1 frigs and cruisers again once they have battleships/battlecruisers trained. BS are required for sniping POS, RR gangs, tanking gate guns etc. Players spend far longer training for BS and far longer actually using them than frigs & crusiers, so naturally players care more about the balance in this ship class
Well, I'm not gonna lie, I knew someone was gonna say that. And while I somewhat agree, it's no reason to forget about Caldari Small ships.
My point was, some races just seem to be weeker in some places. And what i'm saying pretty much is pretty, buff everyone who needs it or buff no-one.
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Lindsay Logan
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Posted - 2009.07.14 13:32:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 14/07/2009 13:34:08
30% less rof to large minnie turrets, and 50% more damage to alpha should help a bit I guess.
Edit: I aslo agree with above poster. Minnie may be bad off in BS department, but Cadlari has it bad in T1 frig/cruisre department :P. (excluding BB)
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Daftny Litchinova
RIC ACADEMY OF MINING AND ASTROGEOLOGY
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Posted - 2009.07.15 16:39:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Raivi
A whole lot of us are really very surprised that you don't already know what's wrong with minmatar battleships, so the comment in the blog asking for help is going to receive a lot of ridicule, be warned in advance.
As people have said so far, there's a number of individual reasons that all contribute to the weakness of the Minmatar battleship lineup.
In my opinion the most significant of these is the weapon systems themselves.
Autos: When compared to both other large shortrange weapons and to other sizes of autocannons, large autos come up lacking. This is partially because the smaller tiers of autos gain a lot of effectiveness from their low fitting cost, which is relatively less of an issue for battleships and for cruisers since you can't fit an oversized plate on a bs. I think large autos could use a rebalance check, and have their stats tweaked to bring them in line.
Artillery: Artillery is even more of a problem than autocannons, and in this case the problem comes down to range, pure and simple. Nobody who knows what they are doing uses minmatar battleships for a mixed sniper fleet. Snipers have to be able to hit at 200+km effectively, and the minmatar ships even with tech II rigs cannot keep up with Apocs or Rokhs or Megas. This can either be fixed by increasing the range of artillery significantly, or by swapping some of the falloff into optimal, or possibly by changing tracking enhancers and computers to effect both falloff and optimal. One way or another, artillery range needs to be brought into line, as the current consensus is that tempests and maelstroms are less than useless for long range sniping fleets.
For a much more comprehensive look at Minmatar ships (including more than just battleships, but feel free to focus on the battleship issues as they are by far the most pronounced and agreed upon) you can see this proposal created by former CSM member Pattern Clarc here.
I humbly beg that Minmatar battleships be added to a list of major issues that need a detailed balance look for an upcoming patch. I had honestly believed that they were already on your radar, and am somewhat dismayed to find that they are not. CCP has shown some very effective balancing abilities in the past months, please continue that streak by looking closely at Minmatar battleships and large projectiles.
Well I'm still a young EvE player and this tread is making me sad to be Minmatar.
I heard many people complaining about how bad Minmatar BS where lame, with this tread, now I'm considering to train for another race to have some fun in a Battleship.
I don't want to skill for large T2 artys and Autocannons + Cruise missiles just to realise how bad my ship is against a Gallente or Caldari BS.
I really hope they will fix these BS/large Artillery(and autocannon) turrets. And while there at it, why not updating the design of both the Typhoon and Tempest; I'm sorry but they are plain hugly. compared to Megathron, the Tempest looks like the Grinch designed it. Maelstrom looks awesome by the way.
*If you like my sig and want one, PM with a brief description of what you would like! |
Daftny Litchinova
RIC ACADEMY OF MINING AND ASTROGEOLOGY
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Posted - 2009.07.15 16:57:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Igor Epocci
Edited by: Igor Epocci on 02/07/2009 00:31:38
Originally by: Ephemeron
I think it would be good for game design to increase alpha strike of artillery weapons, while maintaining same DPS. This was the case in early game design but was pushed back by the massive HP changes, and gradually forgotten with all the other tweaks to game balance. It's about time to give artillery a clear edge.
Minmatar battleships emphasize speed and agility, but the latest patches punish speed tactics on battleship. There's a conflict of design which makes their speed and agility near-useless as an advantage. Now battleships are primarily judged by their ability to tank and gank - both of which aren't strengths of minmatar bs. The main redeeming feature of Tempest and Typhoon is their ability to add 2 heavy neuts without gimping tank and gank setups.
...
QFE, just so.
As another point-in-fact: Matari bonuses and weapons work against each other! The tracking systems of the matari weapons are so horrible, that any significant increase in speed is largely suicidal.
The combination of fast ships and horrid tracking is a non-sequitur at best.
I demonstrated this to a corpmate just a few days ago on sisi. The rate of drop in damage output as speed increases is phenomenal. Enough so that the thought of making the matari ships faster without addressing the tracking would be a nerf in itself.
My two cents: address the tracking first. It would certainly help if we could hit the bloody target.
Then figure out what you want projectile weapons to excel at! Should we have excellent range, damage, ROF, capacity or tracking? Currently we have *******s on all counts. I don't think that the lack of cap is enough to explain the lackluster performance in all other areas.
I agree, tracking with large turrets is really bad. You get descent damage (in mission) with a slow moving target, but when it comes to fast ships, you just trow away ammo and give ridiculous damage to the target.
*If you like my sig and want one, PM with a brief description of what you would like! |
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