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[psych] The Theory of the Failure Cascade: How Alliances Die

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The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 12:25:00 - [1] http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/71300 I've been meaning to write something about this up for years now, but until recently I've lacked an actual explanation for the mechanics behind the cascade. Some recent reading in psych and behavioral economics at last offered rationales for some of the larger questions about alliance death: Why does it not make a damned bit of difference when an alliance suffers a 'big hit' such as a titan loss or a cap fleet loss, yet 30 days of tedium is a killer? Why did RA survive against LV/SoCo in C-J6? (hint, it's not because they're russian) Why didn't Goonswarm cascade after months of undeniable loss against SE/ROL in Feythabolis/Esoteria between October 2008 and February 2009? Cascades have always been a "know it when you see it" phenomenon, but the process with which to send an alliance into cascade is messy. We know if you hurt the other guy and take their **, they eventually die. Except that sometimes they don't. A lot of times, the events which commanders assume will send someone into cascade don't appear to make an impact at all. I don't think this is a 'final' theory, since I expect I forgot some stuff that people will point out to me here and elsewhere, but I'm delighted to have delineated some of the phases at last. There are a **load of words here, about 4500 of them. At the end of the article are links to talks and various books describing where the relevant psychobabble comes from. Creationists, classical economists and libertarians may also be offended. Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ tentonhammer.com column
Candy Man Caldari Fatal Error. DEFI4NT	Posted - 2009.07.16 12:31:00 - [2] 1st
Kris Longknife Caldari Mentis Fidelis	Posted - 2009.07.16 12:34:00 - [3] Edited by: Kris Longknife on 16/07/2009 12:34:29 delete
NeoTheo Caldari Dark Materials	Posted - 2009.07.16 12:34:00 - [4] Edited by: NeoTheo on 16/07/2009 12:36:36 3rd, and place holder for nattter :P Looks like TTH is having intermittant issues atm. Dark Materials
The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 12:38:00 - [5] oh also this hasn't been edited properly so expect the odd missing word, once people warn me of the errors i'll have it tweaked~ Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ tentonhammer.com column
Reprimander Caldari Failswarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 12:55:00 - [6] i do not approve of the lack of '~' in the OP ~
Shinma Apollo Caldari 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:11:00 - [7] Mittens, great work, but you should check out Robert Pape, Bombing to win He's really good for understanding the processes of the failure cascade, since he models the same thing in real life. Originally by: CCP Mitnal Let's not go near moderation discussion. However, if the excuse involved role-playing Zorro, this did get full marks for creativity
Scatim Helicon Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:12:00 - [8] Which forum will this weeks thread be moved to? Spin the wheel of fortune!
Crimson11 Caldari ZipZoom Kaboom	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:12:00 - [9] Fairly interesting, I think it spent too much time on the actual psychology instead of applying it to eve situations or rather it didn't make enough of those connections. It also doesn't address things as metagaming, emo rage quiting leaders, and hostile takeovers as alliance failures. All of which are pretty well known and documented throughout eve. Each of these I'm sure have many reasons for why they happen and what the player bases reaction to each of these would be. overall though, worth reading Crim
Magic Trev Gallente Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:19:00 - [10] nice, well thought out and intereting read imo. congrats. ---------------------- ]

Hachi Ironfist Gallente Rubbish and Garbage Removal Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:41:00 - [11] You mentioned the Polish, Germans, Russians and Hungarians ...but not the Romanians ... tsk tsk
Mad Shade Amarr The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.07.16 13:52:00 - [12] Edited by: Mad Shade on 16/07/2009 13:53:04 Keep up the good work... I enjoy reading these articles, It's a nice way to kill time while at work. Sometimes (aggro) you dont need to induce helplessness... just add a few neckbeards and lack of identification. STRPR KB - Our Stats Speak for Themselves.
Berel Oham Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 14:22:00 - [13] i don't get why libertarians are supposed to be offended
DrDevice Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.07.16 14:25:00 - [14] a good read :) Absolutely right about the adversity, and its ongoing nature, however the articles vibe felt a little narrow towards the adversity being largely combat related. From my experiences of fail cascade adversity can take many forms and be a lot more subtle. Boredom and leadership absences can all take their toll. It might be an interesting experiment to 'arrange' for the key FCs' for a timezone to go 'afk' for a few weeks at the same time and see what happens :) this wouldn't need to be during any massive wars or anything that would cause any military failures, just take away the day-to-day direction.
Fuujin Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 14:33:00 - [15] Always love these reads. Keep them coming! :)
Fuujin Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 14:38:00 - [16] Originally by: DrDevice a good read :) Absolutely right about the adversity, and its ongoing nature, however the articles vibe felt a little narrow towards the adversity being largely combat related. From my experiences of fail cascade adversity can take many forms and be a lot more subtle. Boredom and leadership absences can all take their toll. It might be an interesting experiment to 'arrange' for the key FCs' for a timezone to go 'afk' for a few weeks at the same time and see what happens :) this wouldn't need to be during any massive wars or anything that would cause any military failures, just take away the day-to-day direction. I think he was focusing on the cascade-by-external-forces (spys seeding dissent aside). Leadership gaps will always cause turmoil and a loss of cohesion--whether the damage is superficial or mortal really depends on whether your alliance/corporate culture encourages people to step up and try and lead when there's a vaccuum. Of course, even then it could be bad if someone steps up and sucks at the job. But then, there's a reason why assassination is an effective tool when done right.
Aditia Holdem Minmatar Doom Guard Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.07.16 14:49:00 - [17] Edited by: Aditia Holdem on 16/07/2009 14:50:44 I was about to post that CAOD is dead. This post injected some life into it! Good read. thanx
Galaor Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2009.07.16 14:55:00 - [18] Fun read as usual, but I think you're muddling up causes with effects a bit. This isn't any different than explaining the difference between a stock market downturn and a crash, or a military retreat vs. a rout. The common denominator is a failure (temporary or permanent) to believe in a system that requires such belief in order to work (you call it change in identification). The rest of the stuff you talk about may or may not be present. There's all sorts of excellent analysis work on exactly how the rifleman square (think redcoats) worked, why certain armies had excellent results copying it and certain others never got it right, and how and why it failed when it did. You can get pretty much the same studies on the effect of cavalry charges on masses of footmen (and the effect of masses of footmen on cavalry charges). It's fun stuff. For more recent examples, read any book on why World War 1 ended the way it did. If you want real life failure cascades (lots of them), it's hard to find better examples than that.
Captian Duffy Gallente Darke Aurora	Posted - 2009.07.16 14:58:00 - [19] Originally by: Hachi Ironfist You mentioned the Polish, Germans, Russians and Hungarians ...but not the Romanians ... tsk tsk nobody cares about you seriously, why so much nationalism?
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2009.07.16 14:58:00 - [20] Edited by: Garia666 on 16/07/2009 15:00:32 Its time your alliance starts to die.. www.garia.net

The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:06:00 - [21] Originally by: DrDevice a good read :) Absolutely right about the adversity, and its ongoing nature, however the articles vibe felt a little narrow towards the adversity being largely combat related. From my experiences of fail cascade adversity can take many forms and be a lot more subtle. Boredom and leadership absences can all take their toll. It might be an interesting experiment to 'arrange' for the key FCs' for a timezone to go 'afk' for a few weeks at the same time and see what happens :) this wouldn't need to be during any massive wars or anything that would cause any military failures, just take away the day-to-day direction. adversity can take many forms, which is why i tried to keep it in those terms rather than just combat having your forums goonrushed and being a public laughingstock, a la aggressionperiod, is certainly adversity leadership vanishing tends to occur in the late stages of cascade, when an individual leader is bashed into helplessness. that absolutely accelerates things, as it provides a new excuse for a pilot to stop bothering: "even though i love my alliance, why should i show up and fight when the leadership doesn't, it's not my fault, it's theirs" the reasons why alliances like aggression and fallen souls end up cascading so quickly is because they add so many new corps so fast (in some cases doubling in size in 3 months or less) that pilots haven't shifted their identification to the alliance so if you see an alliance 'bloat' it's not a sign of strength but weakness; the older corps who were there pre-bloat blame the newer corps for ****ing things up, the newer corps don't have any stake in the alliance, etc. Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ tentonhammer.com column
The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:08:00 - [22] Originally by: Galaor There's all sorts of excellent analysis work on exactly how the rifleman square (think redcoats) worked, why certain armies had excellent results copying it and certain others never got it right, and how and why it failed when it did. You can get pretty much the same studies on the effect of cavalry charges on masses of footmen (and the effect of masses of footmen on cavalry charges). It's fun stuff. For more recent examples, read any book on why World War 1 ended the way it did. If you want real life failure cascades (lots of them), it's hard to find better examples than that. i deliberately avoid analogies to real-life combat as eve is much more analagous to a no-contact sport than war. this is why quoting sun tzu about eve is such a laughingstock: no one gets killed or risks death and everyone can escape negative situations in eve simply by logging off that said grossman's 'on killing' is a fascinating book Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ tentonhammer.com column
Malur Fy'Lap Caldari Heavy Influence BearForceOne.	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:08:00 - [23] Nice work Muffin.. i mean mittan Very nice read
The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:14:00 - [24] Originally by: Berel Oham i don't get why libertarians are supposed to be offended modern psychology demonstrates that the classic summum bonums of typical lolbertarians are bs objectivists/randians worship rationality, humans aren't only irrational but in many ways it is impossible for us to force ourselves into a rational mindest lolbertarians of the nonrandian type often espouse the joys of a self-regulating 'free market' and behavioral economics blows bloody gaping holes in that some nonrandian lolbertarians hold 'free will' to be their highest good, justifying both smoking pot and capitalism through it, the only problem is that 'free will' doesn't exist given how irrational and easily manipulated humans are, let's not even begin to touch on the number of inherent flaws in cognition which render free will a dangerous ideal Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ tentonhammer.com column
Xtreem Gallente Knockaround Guys Inc. Exxxotic	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:18:00 - [25] as much as i hate to, i really like these posts of yours. good read
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:19:00 - [26] Originally by: Berel Oham i don't get why libertarians are supposed to be offended Me neither. I am a libertarian and was not offended. Maybe I am a **** libertarian.
Le Skunk Gallente Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:30:00 - [27] Edited by: Le Skunk on 16/07/2009 15:30:34 An interesting 5 min read. Thanks SKUNK (o)
Dante Algermain Gallente Silver Snake Enterprise Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:33:00 - [28] I've just studied this text, and whilst i went into it with an open mind, i find your typical "yank" writing style or using too many big words to explain things, detracts from what could be a well written piece of journalism. I fully expect to get flamed for this, but opinions are like ********s, everybody's got one.
The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:37:00 - [29] Originally by: Dante Algermain I've just studied this text, and whilst i went into it with an open mind, i find your typical "yank" writing style or using too many big words to explain things, detracts from what could be a well written piece of journalism. I fully expect to get flamed for this, but opinions are like ******s, everybody's got one. it is unabashedly psych gobbledy**, i have a psych ba vOv Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
Dante Algermain Gallente Silver Snake Enterprise Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:38:00 - [30] Originally by: The Mittani Originally by: Berel Oham i don't get why libertarians are supposed to be offended modern psychology demonstrates that the classic summum bonums of typical lolbertarians are bs objectivists/randians worship rationality, humans aren't only irrational but in many ways it is impossible for us to force ourselves into a rational mindest lolbertarians of the nonrandian type often espouse the joys of a self-regulating 'free market' and behavioral economics blows bloody gaping holes in that some nonrandian lolbertarians hold 'free will' to be their highest good, justifying both smoking pot and capitalism through it, the only problem is that 'free will' doesn't exist given how irrational and easily manipulated humans are, let's not even begin to touch on the number of inherent flaws in cognition which render free will a dangerous ideal A "self regulating" free market leads to the current global economic slow down and the "boom & bust" cycle. Individual "free will" does exist, however it is belittled by "the mob" which turns people into sheep.

Dante Algermain Gallente Silver Snake Enterprise Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:39:00 - [31] Originally by: The Mittani Originally by: Dante Algermain I've just studied this text, and whilst i went into it with an open mind, i find your typical "yank" writing style or using too many big words to explain things, detracts from what could be a well written piece of journalism. I fully expect to get flamed for this, but opinions are like ******s, everybody's got one. it is unabashedly psych gobbledy**, i have a psych ba vOv Ah, now i get it. You have a pointless degree and need to justify wasting those years of your life.
Galaor Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:39:00 - [32] Originally by: The Mittani i deliberately avoid analogies to real-life combat as eve is much more analagous to a no-contact sport than war. this is why quoting sun tzu about eve is such a laughingstock: no one gets killed or risks death and everyone can escape negative situations in eve simply by logging off I don't think you believe this for a minute. The people your skullduggery works best against are those that are emotionally involved with this game, and that care deeply about their internet spaceship assets. I don't think failure cascades are possible without this emotional involvement. Then again, it's pretty hard to build and maintain a strong 0.0-space holding alliance without it either...
Exie Gallente Phantasmal Collective Wicked Nation	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:40:00 - [33] Great read, loved it... in terms to tweak found a few things. Page 1 Paragraph 4 "a failure cascade never been properly defined" cascade has never Page 5 Paragraph 2 "alliances are run by a lose oligarchy of the CEOs" should be loose Once again, loved the article. E... We be Jammin'
Dante Algermain Gallente Silver Snake Enterprise Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:42:00 - [34] Originally by: Galaor Originally by: The Mittani i deliberately avoid analogies to real-life combat as eve is much more analagous to a no-contact sport than war. this is why quoting sun tzu about eve is such a laughingstock: no one gets killed or risks death and everyone can escape negative situations in eve simply by logging off I don't think you believe this for a minute. The people your skullduggery works best against are those that are emotionally involved with this game, and that care deeply about their internet spaceship assets. I don't think failure cascades are possible without this emotional involvement. Then again, it's pretty hard to build and maintain a strong 0.0-space holding alliance without it either... It is the overriding failing in all successful people/pilots/workers. Their passion isboth their greatest asset and at the same time their greatest failing
The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:44:00 - [35] Originally by: Galaor Originally by: The Mittani i deliberately avoid analogies to real-life combat as eve is much more analagous to a no-contact sport than war. this is why quoting sun tzu about eve is such a laughingstock: no one gets killed or risks death and everyone can escape negative situations in eve simply by logging off I don't think you believe this for a minute. The people your skullduggery works best against are those that are emotionally involved with this game, and that care deeply about their internet spaceship assets. I don't think failure cascades are possible without this emotional involvement. Then again, it's pretty hard to build and maintain a strong 0.0-space holding alliance without it either... emotional investment in sports is common, just as it is in games, you'll note that i did not deny this in what you quoted the particular stressors which render combat and war so damaging (see this book) simply don't exist in games or sports, which is why i stay away from any ~sun tzu~ or battlefield analogies Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
Galaor Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:50:00 - [36] Edited by: Galaor on 16/07/2009 15:52:37 Originally by: The Mittani emotional investment in sports is common, just as it is in games, you'll note that i did not deny this in what you quoted the particular stressors which render combat and war so damaging (see this book) simply don't exist in games or sports, which is why i stay away from any ~sun tzu~ or battlefield analogies I'll put it on my wishlist. You ought to read this in turn. Edit and I think you'll like this if you haven't read it yet.
The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 15:53:00 - [37] i have that book actually, it's a great book. been a few years since i read it but i have fond memories~ Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
Malur Fy'Lap Caldari Heavy Influence BearForceOne.	Posted - 2009.07.16 16:05:00 - [38] Originally by: Dante Algermain Originally by: The Mittani Originally by: Dante Algermain I've just studied this text, and whilst i went into it with an open mind, i find your typical "yank" writing style or using too many big words to explain things, detracts from what could be a well written piece of journalism. I fully expect to get flamed for this, but opinions are like ******s, everybody's got one. it is unabashedly psych gobbledy**, i have a psych ba vOv Ah, now i get it. You have a pointless degree and need to justify wasting those years of your life. Sounds like you got some issues with your life and poor judgement. Fact of the matter is that its a good article, and it is researched fairly well. You clearly have some sort of emotional attachment to something here (possibly lolbertarianism) and are going all emo. Love it, keep up the good work.
James 315 Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 16:22:00 - [39] Originally by: The Mittani http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/71300 I've been meaning to write something about this up for years now, Silly alt, you did write something about this three years ago~~ How alliances die - 315
Milhibethjida Amarr Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2009.07.16 16:33:00 - [40] Originally by: DrDevice It might be an interesting experiment to 'arrange' for the key FCs' for a timezone to go 'afk' for a few weeks at the same time and see what happens :) On that note: The 'key FC' for GoonSwarm is said to be dbrb, and him going afk for a few weeks would probably double, if not triple, the number of GoonSwarm members participating in random fleet ops, CTAs etc., I guess :P

Kesper North Caldari Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.07.16 16:36:00 - [41] Originally by: The Mittani some nonrandian lolbertarians hold 'free will' to be their highest good, justifying both smoking pot and capitalism through it, the only problem is that 'free will' doesn't exist given how irrational and easily manipulated humans are, let's not even begin to touch on the number of inherent flaws in cognition which render free will a dangerous ideal And some libertarians (what I call 'small-L' libertarians) just prefer smaller governments and a wider range of civil liberties. We're not all anarchist nutjobs.
Gaius Capua Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.07.16 17:08:00 - [42] Now we're starting to see corps bouncing from one alliance to another as they fail in turn. The failure cascades seem to come quicker now as players and corps that have been in alliance that has cascaded recognize the precursors and quit that much faster. Mittens you'll have to think of a catchy syndrome name for that. I'm waiting for the day that an alliance cascades merely at the mention of a possible invasion.
The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 17:16:00 - [43] Originally by: Gaius Capua Now we're starting to see corps bouncing from one alliance to another as they fail in turn. The failure cascades seem to come quicker now as players and corps that have been in alliance that has cascaded recognize the precursors and quit that much faster. Mittens you'll have to think of a catchy syndrome name for that. I'm waiting for the day that an alliance cascades merely at the mention of a possible invasion. we did coin a phrase for corps who repeatedly join gbc alliances after a cascade, since some of them had been through like rise, frontal impact, skunkworks, and exe: snowballers weak, bloated alliances can easily cascade at the mention of hostile activity because they have no identity or allegiance to the alliance itself; you see this a lot in renter orgs like scorched earth and aggression Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
Rui Nosferatu Caldari The Fated E.Y	Posted - 2009.07.16 17:30:00 - [44] Edited by: Rui Nosferatu on 16/07/2009 17:32:55 Its a cheesy business phrase but it also holds true for 0.0 alliances:- 'If you don't compete with yourselves then you don't have to worry about the competition'. And don't succumb to MMO masochistic nerd rage about destroying an enemy. Login have fun, respect your enemies. Be dedicated and light-hearted. If you actually take COAD at face value then your a sucker A simple litmus test of the vitality of an 0.0 alliance is the collective willingness to form up a pvp gang to counter raiders. If this is hard to do then rot is setting in. And on the other side of the coin players become more mellow from being part of an alliance that has failed and taken the experience to another alliance.
Htrag Caldari The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2009.07.16 17:39:00 - [45] Interesting article with a good explanation of failure cascade. We see a similar phenomenon in low sec among corporations although on a much smaller scale. I'd like to think we (and our friends) are at least partially responsible for the recent failure cascade of the Gurlstas Associates, although that may simply be due to Gilgamesh being such a tool.
Khorian Gallente Excidium.	Posted - 2009.07.16 17:40:00 - [46] Edited by: Khorian on 16/07/2009 17:42:33 German Alliances collapse even before they are formed, because for some reason they obviously can't accept to have just one guy in charge. Also, they prefer demcratic discussions over pvp. Just thought i'd share this piece of wisdom. You're welcome.
Doppleganger Minmatar Libera Mentem Tuam Libera Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.16 17:56:00 - [47] Good read as always. Personally after being part of FIX for 4 yrs and experiencing a few small cascades... I think its better if they happen quickly then having a real long term collapse.
William DeMeo Gallente Genos Occidere	Posted - 2009.07.16 18:03:00 - [48] Originally by: The Mittani Originally by: Berel Oham i don't get why libertarians are supposed to be offended modern psychology demonstrates that the classic summum bonums of typical lolbertarians are bs objectivists/randians worship rationality, humans aren't only irrational but in many ways it is impossible for us to force ourselves into a rational mindest lolbertarians of the nonrandian type often espouse the joys of a self-regulating 'free market' and behavioral economics blows bloody gaping holes in that some nonrandian lolbertarians hold 'free will' to be their highest good, justifying both smoking pot and capitalism through it, the only problem is that 'free will' doesn't exist given how irrational and easily manipulated humans are, let's not even begin to touch on the number of inherent flaws in cognition which render free will a dangerous ideal The profit motive, or maybe I should say "production for profit" (after all, cultural victory), is the only rational thing required for a free market to work. Are you, with your BA in psychology, going to tell me that this does not exist? As for people, I agree that most people are irrational, driven by emotions, and are generally unfit to be trusted to make any sensible decisions. Indeed, for evidence of this you need only look at liberals. "Demoralize the enemy from within by surprise, terror, sabotage, assassination. This is the war of the future."
Galaor Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2009.07.16 18:22:00 - [49] Originally by: William DeMeo The profit motive, or maybe I should say "production for profit" (after all, cultural victory), is the only rational thing required for a free market to work. Proof or STFU.
Xiaodown Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.16 18:25:00 - [50] Great article, Mittens. Also, this is the most intellectual discussion I've ever seen on this board. Amazingly insightful replies. /me goes to find some of these books to study up... --

William DeMeo Gallente Genos Occidere	Posted - 2009.07.16 18:28:00 - [51] Originally by: Galaor Originally by: William DeMeo The profit motive, or maybe I should say "production for profit" (after all, cultural victory), is the only rational thing required for a free market to work. Proof or STFU. Go to school. "Demoralize the enemy from within by surprise, terror, sabotage, assassination. This is the war of the future."
Galaor Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2009.07.16 18:36:00 - [52] Originally by: William DeMeo Originally by: Galaor Originally by: William DeMeo The profit motive, or maybe I should say "production for profit" (after all, cultural victory), is the only rational thing required for a free market to work. Proof or STFU. Go to school. Is that where you learned that repeating what you've been told is an acceptable substitute for objective proof? I hope it was cheap.
Das Panzer Minmatar Mithril Inc	Posted - 2009.07.16 18:53:00 - [53] Too long, didnt read. Same rubbish as always Mittens, just more words. Only thing interesting about this is how many more angles you can squeeze from Bob disband.
Machine Delta Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 19:10:00 - [54] Originally by: Das Panzer Too long, didnt read. Same rubbish as always Mittens, just more words. Only thing interesting about this is how many more angles you can squeeze from Bob disband. A perfect display of ignorance
Harkani Amarr Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 19:12:00 - [55] Originally by: Das Panzer Too long, didnt read. Same rubbish as always Mittens, just more words. Only thing interesting about this is how many more angles you can squeeze from Bob disband. You know its the "same rubbish" as always without even reading it brah?
Kaaii Caldari KaaiiNet Holding Executor Corp	Posted - 2009.07.16 19:18:00 - [56] Originally by: Machine Delta Originally by: Das Panzer Too long, didnt read. Same rubbish as always Mittens, just more words. Only thing interesting about this is how many more angles you can squeeze from Bob disband. A perfect display of ignorance Don't be so hard on yourself, u mad? oh and too mittens, not worth the read... According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
Machine Delta Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 19:20:00 - [57] Originally by: Kaaii Originally by: Machine Delta Originally by: Das Panzer Too long, didnt read. Same rubbish as always Mittens, just more words. Only thing interesting about this is how many more angles you can squeeze from Bob disband. A perfect display of ignorance Don't be so hard on yourself, u mad? oh and too mittens, not worth the read... I actually feel a little sorry for you and Das Panzer. Just a little bit. Must be sad being so bitter.
Kaaii Caldari KaaiiNet Holding Executor Corp	Posted - 2009.07.16 19:23:00 - [58] Sooo predictable...its just too easy ... According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
Grendell Amarr Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering	Posted - 2009.07.16 19:43:00 - [59] I don't typically follow COAD much, for obvious reasons. But I am very happy I took the time to read that write up, it was a very interesting read. Thanks for taking the time to write it
SFX Bladerunner Minmatar Black Serpent Technologies Atropos.	Posted - 2009.07.16 19:51:00 - [60] Originally by: The Mittani oh also this hasn't been edited properly so expect the odd missing word, once people warn me of the errors i'll have it tweaked~ page 1, beginning of 4th paragraph: "Despite the popularity of the term, a failure cascade never been properly defined." Other than that I didn't notice any big grammatical errors. Congratulations on yet another fine read, I give it a 9/10. __________________________________________________ History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever..

The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 19:52:00 - [61] Originally by: Khorian Edited by: Khorian on 16/07/2009 17:42:33 German Alliances collapse even before they are formed, because for some reason they obviously can't accept to have just one guy in charge. Also, they prefer demcratic discussions over pvp. Just thought i'd share this piece of wisdom. You're welcome. democracy never works in 0.0, ever alliances burdened with 'councils' explode much faster than those without Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
VCBee 516 Amarr The Greater Moon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 19:55:00 - [62] Originally by: Kaaii Originally by: Machine Delta Originally by: Das Panzer Too long, didnt read. Same rubbish as always Mittens, just more words. Only thing interesting about this is how many more angles you can squeeze from Bob disband. A perfect display of ignorance Don't be so hard on yourself, u mad? oh and too mittens, not worth the read... So if you didn't read it why are you here? Just trolling because you dislike certain people so much? At least other posters here are contributing something.
SFX Bladerunner Minmatar Black Serpent Technologies Atropos.	Posted - 2009.07.16 19:58:00 - [63] btw On a more personal note I would like to add that another possible reason for the onset of collective helplessness in the face of adversity might be pilots imagining that even though they are capable to rationalise the losses their alliance mates might not be able to. Thus compromising faith in said alliance members and furthermore increasing the feeling of personal helplessness. One might argue that the course of action would be to try and inspire possibly helpless pilots but people tend to get even more demoralised by that due to the realisation that that same person trying to inspire people and boost morale clearly feels there is a need to. It's a downwards spiral. __________________________________________________ History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever..
Master Mnemosyne Gallente Hybrid Stigmata	Posted - 2009.07.16 20:00:00 - [64] Originally by: VCBee 516 Originally by: Kaaii Originally by: Machine Delta Originally by: Das Panzer Too long, didnt read. Same rubbish as always Mittens, just more words. Only thing interesting about this is how many more angles you can squeeze from Bob disband. A perfect display of ignorance Don't be so hard on yourself, u mad? oh and too mittens, not worth the read... So if you didn't read it why are you here? Just trolling because you dislike certain people so much? At least other posters here are contributing something. You know you're in the post-BOB era when a goon is complaining about trolling.
The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 20:05:00 - [65] Originally by: William DeMeo The profit motive, or maybe I should say "production for profit" (after all, cultural victory), is the only rational thing required for a free market to work. Are you, with your BA in psychology, going to tell me that this does not exist? As for people, I agree that most people are irrational, driven by emotions, and are generally unfit to be trusted to make any sensible decisions. Indeed, for evidence of this you need only look at liberals. sorry darling the chicago school is so 2007 when even a diehard randian like greenspan backs away from rationality as a governing force in the market, you're left looking like the kind of guy who invests in mortgage-backed securities see generally this book, particularly the forward in the revised edition Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
SFX Bladerunner Minmatar Black Serpent Technologies Atropos.	Posted - 2009.07.16 20:17:00 - [66] Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 16/07/2009 20:17:15 Originally by: The Mittani Originally by: Khorian Edited by: Khorian on 16/07/2009 17:42:33 German Alliances collapse even before they are formed, because for some reason they obviously can't accept to have just one guy in charge. Also, they prefer demcratic discussions over pvp. Just thought i'd share this piece of wisdom. You're welcome. democracy never works in 0.0, ever alliances burdened with 'councils' explode much faster than those without They tend to be more predictable/consistant than alliances with one dictator though. As you said it yourself, individuals are unpredictable, but the larger a group of people becomes the more predictable it becomes aswell. Thus this would lead to the conclusion that a dictatorship such as goonswarm is quite unpredictable, seeing as one person can easily change his mind in one day and decide to go all emorage on his alliance or whatever. Then again in that situation he would probably be kicked from his dictator position (either voluntarily or otherwise) and replaced by someone the alliance (or atleast a larger part of it) can get behind. Thus effectivly making the notion/idea of a 'true dictatorship' void. After all it's not like an alliance dictator has an army of loyalists to his disposal to fear his peers into obeying him like a true dictator would in Real Life.. so in the end an eve online alliance 'dictator' really only calls the shots for as long as his decisions appeal the majority of his memberbase. discuss. __________________________________________________ History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever..
The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 20:19:00 - [67] goonswarm's ability to abandon all of its territory and invade delve on one day's notice came from having a dictator ceo i agree, a council govt is much less able to react quickly to unfolding events Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
SFX Bladerunner Minmatar Black Serpent Technologies Atropos.	Posted - 2009.07.16 20:26:00 - [68] Originally by: The Mittani goonswarm's ability to abandon all of its territory and invade delve on one day's notice came from having a dictator ceo i agree, a council govt is much less able to react quickly to unfolding events You are definatelly correct in the sense that a single director takes away the hassle of discussion and makes decisionmaking a quick process. My main point that said decisions only stand due to membership agreeing with the 'dictator' however still stands. __________________________________________________ History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever..
Lowanaera Amarr Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.16 20:28:00 - [69] http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/06/irrational-markets-people-reject-free-money-out-of-anger.ars Rational markets are a myth.
Das Panzer Minmatar Mithril Inc	Posted - 2009.07.16 21:02:00 - [70] Originally by: The Mittani goonswarm's ability to abandon all of its territory and invade delve on one day's notice came from having a dictator ceo i agree, a council govt is much less able to react quickly to unfolding events You forgot to mention your immense naptrain aswell toot toot!

Manfred Sideous Amarr H A V O C	Posted - 2009.07.16 21:58:00 - [71] Nice read I agree the best entities are always ruled with a iron fist .... well a respected iron fist ______________________________ Please resize sig to a maximum file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal
Kaaii Caldari KaaiiNet Holding Executor Corp	Posted - 2009.07.17 00:32:00 - [72] Originally by: VCBee 516 Originally by: Kaaii Originally by: Machine Delta Originally by: Das Panzer Too long, didnt read. Same rubbish as always Mittens, just more words. Only thing interesting about this is how many more angles you can squeeze from Bob disband. A perfect display of ignorance Don't be so hard on yourself, u mad? oh and too mittens, not worth the read... So if you didn't read it why are you here? Just trolling because you dislike certain people so much? At least other posters here are contributing something. You of all alliances should be familiar with that.... According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
Calindoth Caldari Militant Mermen Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.17 00:37:00 - [73] tl;dr *goes back to drinking bud light and watching 'Americas next top model'
Presidio Minmatar ZipZoom Kaboom	Posted - 2009.07.17 00:52:00 - [74] Edited by: Presidio on 17/07/2009 00:56:43 -
The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.17 02:00:00 - [75] Originally by: Das Panzer Originally by: The Mittani goonswarm's ability to abandon all of its territory and invade delve on one day's notice came from having a dictator ceo i agree, a council govt is much less able to react quickly to unfolding events You forgot to mention your immense naptrain aswell toot toot! its not hard to be better at diplomacy than people like sirmolle or evil thug vOv Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
Zumbala Gallente ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.07.17 02:08:00 - [76] Originally by: The Mittani democracy never works in 0.0, ever alliances burdened with 'councils' explode much faster than those without That's is not exactly true. My corp is a pure democraty, and it works actually quite well. The main issue with democracy, is that a lot of people misunderstand democraty. Democraty is juste the fact to put a dictator in charge, choosen by the guy in the corp. A lot of people beleive democraty allow anybody to take any decision or do whatever they want, but this is untrue. This as never existed, I don't understand why it should exist in a video game.
Sanitarium Slave Minmatar Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.17 02:25:00 - [77] i've always been more kind to dictorships than "democratic", i guess this clears it up a bit more.
Talon Scorpio Caldari Black Nova Corp	Posted - 2009.07.17 03:07:00 - [78] The Mittani names have Power, everyone knows that , we find in you the shades of both William and Henry James. I am very nearly willing to wish upon you the same disease of mind suffered by both gentlemen, but I expect everyone has dark moments at 3AM. Add to the worthless undergraduate Psychology degree those of English, Religion, Philosophy and MFA's from self important Writer's Workshops. The pride of Cheever, no less, and life in all of it's tedious minutiae, so eventually breaks a heart, etc etc etc. Anyway, I was bored and did not avert my gaze from the ****ograpy you wrote. It appears your pleasure was not so sublime, indeed the contrary. I think that within any situation when one gives over control on a mental/emotional/psychological level, ie, identifcation of self with an outside entity, learned helplessness does develop. The certain requirement in the arena of EVE, is that there then has to be the retention of strong leadership that acts with intent and direction. Leadership gets tired, it burns out, it fails to evolve to changes, it gets lazy, it forgets that demands for obedience are paid for by the coin of co-dependence. It is a known phenomena that chronic low level pain can induce an awareness of oneÆs helplessness, followed by frustration, depression.. Suicide. Bathos slips silently in the cacophony of Pathos and such entertainments as we had the last few months ensues. Boredom, such a slippery slope.
Presidio Minmatar ZipZoom Kaboom	Posted - 2009.07.17 03:22:00 - [79] Edited by: Presidio on 17/07/2009 03:24:08 I get a certain thrill from being in an alliance faced with impossible odds. Also I have always been someone who likes to be on the side of the underdog. The drama that ensues is interesting and the victories you get in such situations are that much sweeter. What's the thrill of beating someone you vastly outnumber? So far the best gaming experience I've ever had is when BoB and about 5 other alliances proceeded to decimate PA (in 2004). GODS the corp I was in was the only corporation in the alliance who actually grew in numbers. And even though most of the alliance was hemorrhaging members and entire corps like crazy, we were doing fine internally. So I would say it's about players expectations and the general understanding of the situation. We knew we had no way of winning when faced with the odds we were faced with but we wanted to see how long we would last and how much fun we could get out of the situation. Surprisingly we and a few other corps lasted 9 months like this until we left. All the guys I still talk to have fond memories of the whole experience. Meanwhile BoB used all the tricks in the book on us. Way before anyone else in the game knew to call their bluffs. No one really understood BoB at that point, how could they? BoB was formed in that war. Propaganda warfare was fairly new at that time. edit: typos -
BiaXia Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.17 03:39:00 - [80] Originally by: Talon Scorpio The Mittani names have Power, everyone knows that , we find in you the shades of both William and Henry James. I am very nearly willing to wish upon you the same disease of mind suffered by both gentlemen, but I expect everyone has dark moments at 3AM. Add to the worthless undergraduate Psychology degree those of English, Religion, Philosophy and MFA's from self important Writer's Workshops. The pride of Cheever, no less, and life in all of it's tedious minutiae, so eventually breaks a heart, etc etc etc. Anyway, I was bored and did not avert my gaze from the ****ograpy you wrote. It appears your pleasure was not so sublime, indeed the contrary. I think that within any situation when one gives over control on a mental/emotional/psychological level, ie, identifcation of self with an outside entity, learned helplessness does develop. The certain requirement in the arena of EVE, is that there then has to be the retention of strong leadership that acts with intent and direction. Leadership gets tired, it burns out, it fails to evolve to changes, it gets lazy, it forgets that demands for obedience are paid for by the coin of co-dependence. It is a known phenomena that chronic low level pain can induce an awareness of oneÆs helplessness, followed by frustration, depression.. Suicide. Bathos slips silently in the cacophony of Pathos and such entertainments as we had the last few months ensues. Boredom, such a slippery slope. I guess you can add forum ghostwriting to the list of services Jade Constantine provides.

Talon Scorpio Caldari Black Nova Corp	Posted - 2009.07.17 04:15:00 - [81] Edited by: Talon Scorpio on 17/07/2009 04:20:43 Originally by: BiaXia I guess you can add forum ghostwriting to the list of services Jade Constantine provides. Do you actually have anything relevant to say? I didn't think so. nice bio, btw, very harlequin
Stahlregen Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.17 05:21:00 - [82] Originally by: Talon Scorpio Do you actually have anything relevant to say? Posting in COAD is restricted to members of space holding alliances and organisations.
SFX Bladerunner Minmatar Black Serpent Technologies Atropos.	Posted - 2009.07.17 06:10:00 - [83] Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 17/07/2009 06:12:27 Originally by: Talon Scorpio It is a known phenomena that chronic low level pain can induce an awareness of oneÆs helplessness, followed by frustration, depression.. Suicide. chronic constant low level pain, or atleast in the form of physical pain (but I believe the same goes for psychological pain) over the course of time makes one immune to that pain. In the same way that after wearing a hat for a prolonged period of time eventually makes it so you don't even notice/feel that you are wearing the hat anymore. So I do not agree with that statement of yours or atleast not with the way you worded it. The whole 'human perception' is based upon change, not continuality. If you got the same hostile roaming gang roaming into your territory day in day out at the exact same time you will eventually adapt to that and it will not phase you anymore. __________________________________________________ History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever..
Market Ruler Gallente Locusts Holdings Insomniacs United	Posted - 2009.07.17 08:14:00 - [84] It's like me having stage 5 cancer and getting hit by a bus that turned off the road b/c the driver had a heart attack. But actually, the bus would have turned 3 feet to my left if the mechanic had put proper alignment on the wheels. What's more is I was only walking down that road because I was on the way to see my doctor about the cancer. Well the bus killed me, but only because the driver died and the mechanic was a ****** and because I had to go see my doctor about cancer. But I was Dieing already so did it really matter in the end result?
Dante Algermain Gallente Silver Snake Enterprise Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.07.17 09:20:00 - [85] Originally by: The Mittani goonswarm's ability to abandon all of its territory and invade delve on one day's notice came from having a dictator ceo i agree, a council govt is much less able to react quickly to unfolding events Does this mean the the failscade is a possibility (at some future date) now that just over 50% of the membership of GS is not in goonfleet?
Havohej Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.07.17 09:52:00 - [86] Originally by: Reprimander i do not approve of the lack of '~' in the OP ~ No excessive tildes in srs post k? "You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer
BiaXia Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.17 12:16:00 - [87] Originally by: Talon Scorpio Edited by: Talon Scorpio on 17/07/2009 04:20:43 Originally by: BiaXia I guess you can add forum ghostwriting to the list of services Jade Constantine provides. Do you actually have anything relevant to say? I didn't think so. Does your corp do anything relevant outside of camp gates in empire? I didn't think so. Quote: nice bio, btw, very harlequin yeah it's a good piece of fanfiction. Would be better if Vio took me and showed me just how much of a man he could be, but alas, it was not meant to be.
Talon Scorpio Caldari Black Nova Corp	Posted - 2009.07.17 12:35:00 - [88] Originally by: SFX Bladerunner Edited by: SFX Bladerunner on 17/07/2009 06:12:27 Originally by: Talon Scorpio It is a known phenomena that chronic low level pain can induce an awareness of oneÆs helplessness, followed by frustration, depression.. Suicide. chronic constant low level pain, or atleast in the form of physical pain (but I believe the same goes for psychological pain) over the course of time makes one immune to that pain. In the same way that after wearing a hat for a prolonged period of time eventually makes it so you don't even notice/feel that you are wearing the hat anymore. So I do not agree with that statement of yours or atleast not with the way you worded it. The whole 'human perception' is based upon change, not continuality. If you got the same hostile roaming gang roaming into your territory day in day out at the exact same time you will eventually adapt to that and it will not phase you anymore. It depends on how the "pain" is coped with. Examples of whole alliances that end up camped into stations by a few persistent lurkers in local are prevalent. Bia only one nubs I know of was camping gates in empire. We laughed at him too.
Nought Prymary Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.17 12:59:00 - [89] Originally by: Talon Scorpio It depends on how the "pain" is coped with. Examples of whole alliances that end up camped into stations by a few persistent lurkers in local are prevalent. You all should listen to Talon Scorpio on this subject. Having been in both Rise and Kenny, and probably having lots of old corp friends in Skunk-Works, Aggressiondot, and numerous Kenny pets, Talon can tell us with much first-hand experience "How Alliances Die."
Talon Scorpio Caldari Black Nova Corp	Posted - 2009.07.17 13:06:00 - [90] Originally by: Nought Prymary Originally by: Talon Scorpio It depends on how the "pain" is coped with. Examples of whole alliances that end up camped into stations by a few persistent lurkers in local are prevalent. You all should listen to Talon Scorpio on this subject. Having been in both Rise and Kenny, and probably having lots of old corp friends in Skunk-Works, Aggressiondot, and numerous Kenny pets, Talon can tell us with much first-hand experience "How Alliances Die." That's right, I have always been the common element. I also killed Red Alliance. Just ask Bapp. Next.

Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence	Posted - 2009.07.17 17:40:00 - [91] The reason alliances die is because better games come out. Like Aion. ---
Stahlregen Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.17 17:49:00 - [92] Edited by: Stahlregen on 17/07/2009 17:49:54 Originally by: Kayosoni better games come out. Like Aion. HahahahhahahahaHAHAHUELELELLELEAIKSBDASDJASDKASD Yeah, enjoy your typical-korean-grind-fest-lineage-clone. edit: Quote: Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence I get a bit of a semi reading that.
Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence	Posted - 2009.07.17 18:15:00 - [93] Originally by: Stahlregen Edited by: Stahlregen on 17/07/2009 17:49:54 Originally by: Kayosoni better games come out. Like Aion. HahahahhahahahaHAHAHUELELELLELEAIKSBDASDJASDKASD Yeah, enjoy your typical-korean-grind-fest-lineage-clone. edit: Quote: Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence I get a bit of a semi reading that. wts Valakas neck, $5000. ---
Yazoul Samaiel Caldari North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.07.17 18:33:00 - [94] Originally by: Talon Scorpio Originally by: Nought Prymary Originally by: Talon Scorpio It depends on how the "pain" is coped with. Examples of whole alliances that end up camped into stations by a few persistent lurkers in local are prevalent. You all should listen to Talon Scorpio on this subject. Having been in both Rise and Kenny, and probably having lots of old corp friends in Skunk-Works, Aggressiondot, and numerous Kenny pets, Talon can tell us with much first-hand experience "How Alliances Die." That's right, I have always been the common element. I also killed Red Alliance. Just ask Bapp. Next. How is your "Proud last stand " in delve and quesrious going ? I heard its going to be epic and no matter what goons do you guys will still win. Ohh wait... Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes.Applebabe
kayentelva Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.07.17 20:52:00 - [95] i guess being paid to point out the obvious and take credit for spaceship slang is profitable who knew ?
Danton Marcellus Gallente Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2009.07.17 22:40:00 - [96] Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 17/07/2009 22:42:14 No-one outside EVE knows what a CSAA is, not everyone in EVE does. Also we're another alliance of ourselves, warded against cascades, though we're not on that scene so it remain a curious note. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Terribad Gallente Shade. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.07.17 22:57:00 - [97] wow it's like i'm reading about IRON/AGGRO/MH/EXE/etc. fascinating. -------------------------------------------------- the game
nadro Gallente Wreckless Abandon Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.07.18 11:56:00 - [98] Though i didn't read the article (knew the answer already ) i will add big words to this discussion. Fail is now, as others claimed too, pretty much expected in many cases. After numerous and richly documented ones, CAOD can easily claim 'world forum on fail'. Alongside that - and mostly ignoring each other, is a growing number of people that will join what brings friends, fun or roids, expect it to fail in caodian terms or believe in whatever goal, leave-point-laugh, join a new one or switch game. Players that don't even bother to plan that far ahead in game or don't care if their current efforts 'fail' in the 'long term'. They are that way either by original or by acquired-through-constant-fail gamestyle, with the later mostly padding the numbers these times. A new group usually guarantees fun during the first steps, with active leadership (#2 reason of short-term success) and fcs (by far #1 reason for any success whatsoever in eve - if they 're any good). And many times without some of the 'seriouz' aspects that joining an 'established' one may have. If you remove the 'omg our house is on fire' aspect, all you have left is a game. Go around, pick a team, enjoy. Ofc there's always a ghostly alignment for most players due to their past, friends, enemies, whatever, and also to add to the much needed rp that raises the fun level. Even if you hate all, you really enjoy killing goons eer i mean some more than others. Somewhere in that wall i had a point, finders keepers. hmm this can be the tl;dr i guess, in a game fail is the opposite of how serious you are about it: Originally by: The Mittani emotional investment in sports is common, just as it is in games, you'll note that i did not deny this in what you quoted the particular stressors which render combat and war so damaging simply don't exist in games or sports, which is why i stay away from any ~sun tzu~ or battlefield analogies dt over..
Clementina Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.18 12:51:00 - [99] The Engineering term is Cascading Failure. If you google that (Or maybe "Cascading Failure"), you will see references to technological Systems that fail because a small part of them fails and somehow drags the rest of the system with it. If you google Failure Cascade, you will see references to Space claiming Eve online alliance that have failed, and speculation as to why. The Byzantine Generals Problem also seems like a useful engineering problem that could be used to analyze Eve Alliances in some kind of way, I just don't know how yet.
Twilight Magester Caldari Foundation Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.07.18 13:00:00 - [100] Edited by: Twilight Magester on 18/07/2009 13:05:24 Originally by: Clementina The Engineering term is Cascading Failure. If you google that (Or maybe "Cascading Failure"), you will see references to technological Systems that fail because a small part of them fails and somehow drags the rest of the system with it. If you google Failure Cascade, you will see references to Space claiming Eve online alliance that have failed, and speculation as to why. It's actually pretty funny, I used failcascade in class one day when we were talking about elevators failing, and successfully identified another EVE player :D

The Mittani Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.18 17:55:00 - [101] Originally by: Talon Scorpio The Mittani names have Power, everyone knows that , we find in you the shades of both William and Henry James. I am very nearly willing to wish upon you the same disease of mind suffered by both gentlemen, but I expect everyone has dark moments at 3AM. Add to the worthless undergraduate Psychology degree those of English, Religion, Philosophy and MFA's from self important Writer's Workshops. The pride of Cheever, no less, and life in all of it's tedious minutiae, so eventually breaks a heart, etc etc etc. Anyway, I was bored and did not avert my gaze from the ****ograpy you wrote. It appears your pleasure was not so sublime, indeed the contrary. I think that within any situation when one gives over control on a mental/emotional/psychological level, ie, identifcation of self with an outside entity, learned helplessness does develop. The certain requirement in the arena of EVE, is that there then has to be the retention of strong leadership that acts with intent and direction. Leadership gets tired, it burns out, it fails to evolve to changes, it gets lazy, it forgets that demands for obedience are paid for by the coin of co-dependence. It is a known phenomena that chronic low level pain can induce an awareness of oneÆs helplessness, followed by frustration, depression.. Suicide. Bathos slips silently in the cacophony of Pathos and such entertainments as we had the last few months ensues. Boredom, such a slippery slope. your posting style has taken a distinct turn towards yoda of late it seems Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
Jimmy Duce Gallente Shards of Apathy	Posted - 2009.07.18 18:45:00 - [102] Quit stealing my ideas, or did I originally get it from you:D
Shidhe Minmatar The Babylon5 Consortuim	Posted - 2009.07.19 17:21:00 - [103] I guess its game theory (in a technical sense). Individual strategies vs. collective ones. The collapse comes when the breakdown is so obvious that most people no longer fear retribution for abandoning the ship. Up to that point, almost any bad policy is accepted, after that point everyone turns on the leader and says 'shame' despite the fact that they were all in the same boat before. For example - the economics of a bubble is simply that standing up and saying 'this is getting really silly' in the middle of one will result in 1) You make a loss compared to everyone else as the bubble continues to grow 2) The bubble goes POP and everyone blames you for popping it. Often the timing results from one action: The 'loyal' deputy who says the right or wrong thing. Or the breaking of the accepted rules by the leadership making everyone realise that they no longer have the protection they thought they had. The common things are that it will have been obvious to any outside observer that the Emperor has had no clothes for some considerable time, and that there will have been a 'whispering campaign' in the ranks for almost the same time.


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